Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:51, 7 October 2006

Lucca

Hi! I gave a glance to the Lucca article and everything seems ok. The image are properly sets on alternating sides to avoid overlapping with the infobox, for what I can see. Let me know. user:Attilios

Thanks, but in my browser the contents and infobox still overlap. I'll try in another browser tomorrow.Itsmejudith 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Post-fordism

Just wanted to say thanks for helping this article along. -Halidecyphon 22:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hi Itsmejudith,

Can we please discuss the Bat Ye'or case together and then after we have organized our arguments, present them to Pecher and Merzbow.

Pecher's arguments can be summerized to the followings:

• "Lewis does not need to approve of her, but he ackonowledges her significance."
• Here are some collections of reviews of her works: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Pecher/The_Dhimmi and http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Pecher/The_Decline

My arguments:

• Bernard Lewis doesn't quote her.
• Lewis in his book Jews of Islam under the footnote for the sentence:"Two stereotypes dominate most of what has been written on tolerance and intolerance in the Islamic world", after mentioning some works by scholars such as Tritton, Goitein, Fattal, Stillman, Cohen; in the last two sentences, He puts her along with Karl Binswanger who is very critical of what he calls the "dogmatic Islamophilia" of many orientalists! Here is the exact quote:

" Two other works, which emphasize the negative aspects of the Muslim record, are Bat Ye'or, "name of a book", and Karl Binswanger, "name of a book". The latter is very critical of what he calls the "dogmatic Islamophilia" of many orientalists. "

• Sidney H. Griffith stated that there is an unfortunate polemical tone in her work. (See Bat Ye'or section: controversary

• These are some websites that I am not sure whether are reliable enough or not:

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/295 says:

But many of the 70 students attending her Oct. 15 lecture at Georgetown University on "The Ideology of Jihad, Dhimmitude and Human Rights" walked out. Julia Segall, president of the Georgetown Israel Alliance, and Daniel Spector, president of the Jewish Student Alliance, called the lecture a "disaster" in Friday's edition of Hoya, a student newspaper.Bat Ye'or and Mr. Littman "made no effort to make a clear distinction between pure, harmonious Islam and the acts of a few who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam," they wrote. ...Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas."The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis." Bat Ye'or also was criticized by John Esposito, director of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, for lacking academic credentials. She studied at the University of London's School of Archaeology and at the University of Geneva, but never graduated. Imam Rashied Omar, a Capetown (South Africa) University academic pursuing his doctorate in religion and violence at the University of Notre Dame, said that Bat Ye'or's findings are a minority view that contrasts with a large portion of extant literature on medieval Jewish-Muslim-Christian relations.Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude.

"Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude."

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005178.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2006/01/009895print.html

This one says:

"Lewis has never yet acknowledged his behind-the-scenes belittling of Bat Ye'or and his own refusal to recognize that the history of dhimmitude -- a word he likes to mock as "dhimmi-tude," as if it is a preposterous, rather than useful, addition to the lexicon -- matters, is relevant, is center-stage. Instead we are supposed to believe the word itself is illegitimate. No one, apparently, can add to the wordhoard's store, even when the word turns out to be most apt and most useful. He has never engaged sympathetically with what is presented in The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam. He has never reviewed the book, never written about it. Instead he just goes around, ignoring or denigrating in various sly ways (that "dhimmi-tude") the work of Bat Ye'or."

And this one http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1197

says that: "Lewis has in the past been unwilling to endorse the scholarship of Bat Ye'or, describing it as "too polemical."

Best wishes, --Aminz 23:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, I was thinking of sending an email to Esposito or Lewis and asking their opinion about credibility of Bat Ye'or as an "academic reliable source". I can do it myself but was thinking maybe it would be better if you ask (since you have the same major as them and know them better than me). Esposito's email is jle2@georgetown.edu

Would you please let me know what you think? Thanks --Aminz 00:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Bat Ye'or

In "State of 'dhimmitude' seen as threat to Christians, Jews" by Jula Duin ("Washington Times," October 30, 2002) { The archive is no longer available at the washington times website (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021030-10490720.htm) but,

A copy of that could be found elsewhere and here for example: http://hss.fullerton.edu/comparative/islam.htm (The link belongs to the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at CSUF)

Here is the article. It contains criticisms of Bat Ye'or from several people and notably by John Esposito:

Egyptian-born historian Bat Ye'or and her husband, David Littman, have been making the rounds of several campuses this month to lecture on "dhimmitude," a word she coined to describe the status of Christians and Jews under Islamic governments.

Muslims have visited exile, persecution, deportations, massacres and other humiliations on non-Muslims for almost 1,400 years, she has told students at Georgetown, Brown, Yale and Brandeis universities.

Muslim armies steamrolled over North Africa, the Middle East and Spain for five centuries after the death of Muhammad in 632, says Bat Ye'or, a pen name meaning "daughter of the Nile." In her two most recent books, "Islam and Dhimmitude" and "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," she describes how magnificent basilicas and monasteries of Egypt, Syria and Mesopotamia were left in smoking ruins by Muslims from the eighth to 10th centuries.

Spain, she says, was pillaged and devastated many times: Zamora in 981, Barcelona in 987, Santiago de Compostela in 997. In 1000, Castile was ravaged, its Christian population either killed or enslaved and deported. In 1096, Pope Urban II set the Crusades in motion by calling on Christians to take back the conquered lands.

The golden age of Muslim rule in Spain from the eighth to the 15th century was largely myth, Bat Ye'or says, and dhimmitude is in effect today in Islamic-ruled Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, parts of Indonesia and northern Nigeria.

Bat Ye'or has had hearings in some quarters, including her 1997 and 2001 appearances before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Congressional Human Rights Caucus. But many of the 70 students attending her Oct. 15 lecture at Georgetown University on "The Ideology of Jihad, Dhimmitude and Human Rights" walked out.

Julia Segall, president of the Georgetown Israel Alliance, and Daniel Spector, president of the Jewish Student Alliance, called the lecture a "disaster" in Friday's edition of Hoya, a student newspaper.

Bat Ye'or and Mr. Littman "made no effort to make a clear distinction between pure, harmonious Islam and the acts of a few who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam," they wrote.

In the same issue, dissenting student Scott Borer-Miller criticized the university for its treatment of Bat Ye'or and its "anti-Zionist environment where supporting Israel is uncool."

Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas.

"The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis."

Bat Ye'or also was criticized by John Esposito, director of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, for lacking academic credentials. She studied at the University of London's School of Archaeology and at the University of Geneva, but never graduated.

Paul Marshall, a senior fellow at the Center for Religious Freedom, said Bat Ye'or's research into Turkish, Persian and Arabic documents dating back to the eighth century has not been contested.

"What's notable is don't attempt to refute her work, which is scholarly and documented," he said. "Those who oppose it owe it to her to engage her work at the scholarly level, which it deserves."

Imam Rashied Omar, a Capetown (South Africa) University academic pursuing his doctorate in religion and violence at the University of Notre Dame, said that Bat Ye'or's findings are a minority view that contrasts with a large portion of extant literature on medieval Jewish-Muslim-Christian relations.

"That's not to say there was no oppression," he said, "but it's well-known that Jews sought refuge under Muslim empires. Jews and Christians obtained greater freedom and abilities to express their religious identities under Muslim rule than was the case under Christian rule."

Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude.

"Monotheistic religions are always exclusivist," he said, "so how are they going to deal with other monotheistic peoples? Muslims have showed their civilization has a better mechanism in which to do so because they give sanctity to other monotheists. It was a just system that took the dignity of all human beings into consideration. Muslims are not saying we treated them well or that it was an ideal situation."

You can find this in many other websites as well. --Aminz 07:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Itsmejudith, good work on the Dhimmi article. His Excellency... 17:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Is Wheatcroft's and Albert Hourani's book on Dhimmi? If yes, that would be great! BTW, I think we have established that Esposito has criticized Bat Ye'or, no further emailing is needed but thanks anyway. Regards, --Aminz 07:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much Itsmejudith for the sources. It is great. If those books are available at Amazon, one can have access to all of it online (which is great!). I'll work on the article slowly. If, during your research, you found an interesting quote, it would be great if you could add it to the article. Thanks a lot again. --Aminz 23:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that Amazon has added the "Amazon Online Reader" feature for many books. I don't have to buy the books. I can simply read them without buying them. That's great! I also do have access to the UC Berkeley Libarary. I am currently reading Lewis's work which is written nicely whenever I am free. After that, I will pick another book. And yes, thanks to Merzbow! He is a good editor. --Aminz 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Itsyoujudith, just wanted to drop you a note and say how refreshing it is to see some academic infusion into articles like Dhimmi. I've followed a bit what you've had to say and it's encouraging in terms of getting Dhimmi well into NPOV-land. I look forward to seeing your further contributions to Misplaced Pages. Thanks. Netscott 10:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well a lack of response isn't the most encouraging sign... but I suppose you're busy. :-) Netscott 23:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Aminz 08:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your edits to the article. --Aminz 21:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Community is now the Core Topics COTF

You showed support for Amazon rainforest at Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Core topics/Core topics COTF. This article was selected as our collaboration. Hope you can help.

Maurreen 08:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

ANI entry

Hi there. This has alot to do with the "Criticism of Islam" page. It's clear to me that Merzbow is trying to silence my participation in articles using these underhanded tactics. If you have any input, please do participate: WP:ANI#Abuse_of_Warning_Templates_By_Merzbow His Excellency... 04:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Help

Thanks for going to Persecution of Pagans and making it better.Hypnosadist 19:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Criticism of Islam

This is the Best/Worst idea ive heard for this page, if WE(the editors on the page) were to succeed then it could really help. BUT it is very likely to take a lot of energy and time with a lot of insulting going on. I've been around this block so i think one of the most important things is the academic bias at different times in the last hundred years. No-one is unbiased especially on this subject(Islam) and that a full on propaganda war is underway by BOTH/ALL sides in all media hence on the Net hence on wikipedia. The study of this 3rd wave (information) war is my speciality, with RE as my humanity (and long term intrest) in a science based education the "Electronic Intafada" and all its battlefields including the one we are on now!Hypnosadist 21:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Re varied interests

Hi Judith. I am not sure if that's true. However, i may agree about the quality of those interests. C'est un plaisir de vous connaître. Cheers -- Szvest 10:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

My Arbcomm case

Hey. Thanks for your comments on my arbcomm case. That's probably the first time anyone said anything nice about my contributions to an actual article. So much of their case is about how I say things, where so much of mine is about the effect all this has on the actual content. Where my actions make talk pages look bad (IMO I make them look more interesting, but what do I know?), theirs destroy articles and create the impression that Misplaced Pages endorses political motives (yes, political...I don't think any of this has an ounce to do with religion or history). Anyway I really appreciate your comments. :) His Excellency... 13:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't cite any actual evidence in the way of diffs or edits that H.E. has made, the arbcom will probably ignore what you said. Experience talking. --Woohookitty 05:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep I understand you. It's not easy. But on the other hand, if you don't do that, your words will fall on deaf ears. If I can help at all, let me know. And btw, here are all of his H.E.'s edits under that name. Might help you a bit. --Woohookitty 08:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Judith, I honestly don't think there's a need for you to put a tremendous research effort into this. Your comments are very telling as they are, but a few examples of good-faith edits by HE to Dhimmi that you think have been unfairly reverted would make a big difference. If I understand what's been happening at Dhimmi, you won't really need to rake over a lot of ancient history; dipping in for samples would do it. If you need help with stuff like navigating the histories and making diffs for your examples, please let me or Woohoo know the specifics. Btw, if you'd rather discuss such details of old quarrels less publicly, you might consider enabling your wiki e-mail and using that. (Click on the "my preferences" link top right and you'll see how to provide an e-mail address and tick the option to allow others to contact you.) Bishonen | talk 09:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC).

Re Dhimmi

Bonsoir Judith. Let me confess to you that i relatively stopped contributing or debating any religion-related article since a good time now. However this wouldn't stop me from congratulating you for the very good effort and courage to bring a different approach to editing those kind of articles. I also admire your good knowledge of academic research. I believe you do not have to change or tweek any of your manners in doing so. Cheers -- Szvest 18:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi

Hi Itsmejudith, How are you?

Itsmejudith, I can see lots of discussions on the talk page since last week. Would you please let me know the discussions in which sections of the discussion page is not settled down yet, so that I would be able to follow it. Thanks --Aminz 23:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks so much for your efforts to the Dhimmi article.

I think Hypnosadist‎ is online. I've asked him --Aminz 23:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Festa del Redentore

Nice work on Festa del Redentore, thanks! -Harmil 18:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

You presence is requested at the Arbitration Re: Removal of humus sapiens admin privilages due to administrative abuse. Please click Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration Israel Article

I know how to do diffs

I learned due to this process. Ok DIFFs are the page you look at through the history tab, they are the DIFFerence between two pages. If you go to the history page and select this edit and the previous edit and push the button marked compare selected versions what will happen is a new page will open, this is the diff. The URL in the address bar of your brouser is what you have to post in square brackets to present a diff as a link. Hope that helps, if not come to my talk page.Hypnosadist 22:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes i got those links thanks for the help i just have not got round to it. The adviserial nature on the arb case is something i really don't like, read the evidence talk page for more on that. Also the geek bias in this process favours those who know things like diffs. My belief in a fair trial meant i had to tell you dispite being on other sides (do you really think Kike, apostate and bigot are things we should call each other here?).Hypnosadist 22:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi

Sorry about the delay... I saw you comment and then... kept on putting it off. I don't like the Islam articles these days. Too much fighting and not enough academia. Writers don't seem to know their limitations in some cases. In any case, I read your section "Peer-reviewed articles" and they seem like a good start. One problem is that this kind of discussion is typically tucked away in talk of Islamic society. Bat Ye'or wanted to bring it out so she wrote only about it. I think she loses a lot of societal context. But, I am not an expert on her work or on dhimma.

From your list I have access to:

• Al-Qattan, N., 1999, ‘Dhimmis in the Muslim court: Legal autonomy and religious discrimination’, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 31, No. 3. Aug., pp429-444. ISSN 00207438 ISSN 14716380
• Bosworth, C.E., 1972, ‘Christian and Jewish Religious Dignitaries in Mamluk Egypt and Syria - Qalaqshandis Information on their Hierarchy, Titulature, and Appointment (II) .3. Documents Given by Qalaqshandi on Appointment of Heads of Dhimmis’, International Journal of Middle East Studies. Vol. 3, No. 2, pp199-216.

Others:

• "Communal Strife in Late Mamlūk Jerusalem". Donald P. Little. Islamic Law and Society, Vol. 6, No. 1. (1999), pp. 69-96. — he expounds a little on dhimma at the beginning of what I read.

• "Political and Social Aspects of Islamic Religious Endowments ("awqāf"): Saladin in Cairo (1169-73) and Jerusalem (1187-93)". Yehoshuʿa Frenkel. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 62, No. 1. (1999), pp. 1-20. — This is a very messy but incredibly interesting piece, it seems. It shows Saladin's use of waqf to gain political power over the Muslim and Jews. It doesn't seem to address dhimma directly but it's all about it. The fifth page of the article starts talking about interaction with Latin Christians. Since it was the 3rd crusade it talks about confiscation of enemy assets under Hanafi law. Our present article tries to deal with it too holistically and doesn't address its power as a political tool in different circumstances.

We need to get some more SOAS stuff into the article and maybe some modern Muslim takes on it. I know there was an anthology with some G. R. Hawting stuff in it that had an article about dhimma.

In case you want to know about the Dhimmi article an my view of Misplaced Pages: here goes. Bat Ye'or wants to be critical. If you read her language it's incredibly judgmental. My reading about her tells me this: she has definitely done some good research but she needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Which, is something that doesn't work well on Misplaced Pages. Becuase we're supposed to be neutral or some such illusion. We have no way of doing a good job of choosing what is good from an author... something the editorial powers of encyclopedias have to do. You also have the sophisticated man who goes beyond inserting his own opinion in articles but instead finds quotes from academic sources that agree with him. Without having read a lot of an academic's work it's relatively difficult to represent a person's work well. On Patricia Crone there was a quote which showed her being highly critical of early Muslims. I am lucky enough to have had a chance to e-mail back and forth with her and she mentioned that it was completely missing the point of her book and that the context of the quote was non-existent. Her message wasn't that Muslims pillage but that pillaging is a way to bring fractious into a state. Which is more or less what happened during the Arab conquests. I mean, context is incredibly important and we have no mechanism to stop this kind of thing. That's why I think our Islam-related articles are pretty bad. Also... you will notice that things get worse any time there is a crisis in the Muslim world. It's a really interesting subject and incredibly complex. I sent you an e-mail so that I can give you copies of the articles if you want them. If you need anything else feel free to ask. I may drop in but I've been staying away since I see it as a relative waste of time to go back and forth. Maybe when / if we develop an decent method of peer review. gren グレン 07:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

In case the Misplaced Pages e-mail thing fails again. Feel free to e-mail me at grenavitar hotmail.com I'll send you the stuff through my school e-mail but at least then I'll be able to get your e-mail. (Unless you don't mind posting it on my talk page--either way works). gren グレン 10:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Mainmoinds

Hi Itsmejudith,

Definitely. I don't know much about Mainmoinds. I saw those passages were referenced to Lewis and Bat Ye'or (I guess). Furthermore the new editor didn't add anything to the article, but removed the sourced material. Since Mainmoinds case is controversial, which I didn't know about, I am sorry for my revert. --Aminz 19:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Diffs

Unfortunately, Help:Diffs is the only place I know of that explains diffs well. Basically, I'd recommend this: Go to the article history of the article you want to get the diffs of. Then click the radio buttons next to the versions of the page that you want to compare. This is a diff for an edit that H.E. made on the 21st. It shows the change he made on the page. The changes are usually highlighted in red. In this case, he added the fact tag. Do you know how to do external links? If you don't, then I'll show you how. I don't want to waste your time but I also want to help as best I can. Because if you don't know how to do external links on here, you won't know how to put the diffs into the evidence page. --Woohookitty 11:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Awesome. Yep. Looks good. --Woohookitty 14:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Translation

Re: your question at Wikipedia_talk:Pages_needing_translation_into_English#What_to_do_when_cleanup_finished: probably what you were looking for was the {{Cleanup-translation}} tag. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much

Thanks so much Itsmejudith. Keeping life in the balance! This is a pearl on which the Abrahamic religions do not stress. Do you have any online link explaining this in further details through some stories? Thanks. --Aminz 09:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much again Itsmejudith. I'll check them out. --Aminz 20:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

How to read diffs

Judith, the diff you cited shows that the unsigned comment lightly marked with green on the right-hand side does come from Leifern, so I don't think he can have meant he didn't make it. That's what "diff" means: it shows the "difference" between the state of a page before and after the editor who appears top right (here =Leifern) edited it. The difference in this case is the addition of the unsigned comment. Bishonen | talk 09:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

Much appreciated. I can read the diff now. Leifern said on Aminz's talk page he didn't say it and Aminz duly apologised, so did I. But on talk:Dhimmi he admits to it and says it was ironic. He has presented some reasons now about the disputed See Alsos. I'll be satisfied if he says he did not intend to accuse me of antisemitism. I've left a note on user:netscott's talk page, amended it and now need to amend it again, when I'm not even sure whether I should be bothering netscott in the first place. Bother! Itsmejudith 10:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi conflicts

Hello Itsmejudith, unfortunately as you're surely coming to realize the dhimmi article is frequently disputed and the requirement of patience comes with the territory when editing there. It is very wrong from editors to be labeling other editors as anti-semites. What you should do when you are personally attacked in such a fashion is to warn the user by citing Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks to them on their talk page (you can simply place the {{NPA}} template on thier page and sign it as well. If the personal attacks do not stop then you can file a report at WP:PAIN and the personal attacking editor will likely face being blocked. Unfortunately I am currently away and only have dialup access to the internet and so it's a bit difficult to interact with Misplaced Pages to a large degree... I'll take a better look at the situation on the article's talk page and see how I might be of assistance when I get to a cybercafe. Cheers. (→Netscott) 17:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have repeatedly explained that I have not accused anyone of being antisemitic, and I resent the charge. Do accusations of personal attacks count as personal attacks? Just wondering. --Leifern 18:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't worth it

Itsmejudith, the time you are going to spend on it doesn't worth it. I, personally, know that I always tried to be sincere with myself. I was sympathetic toward another blocked user and defended him. But it turned back against myself and I got blocked literally to become quite. My block was loaded with different accusations to which some taste of nationalism bigotry was later added (as apparently the user I defended has said something in that regard and it came back all into my face). That's it. Forget about it. The lesson I took from this is that: Let admins do whatever they want, for they have more power than you... That's pretty much of it. Moreover, there is nothing at the end of it. At maximum the admin who blocked me will just says that I am sorry. I can "assume" he has said something like that and go to sleep. There is nothing at the end of it. It doesn't worth it at all... --Aminz 10:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I am about to pass out now. Hopefully tomorrow or maybe when I cooled down a bit.... Thanks anyway, --Aminz 10:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup. I can see he is blocked now. Itsmejudith, After having a good sleep, I am feeling much better than yesterday night. I wonder what is the point of blocks.... after experiencing one. --Aminz 21:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

After a bit of cooling down, looking back into what happened, I do admit that I lost my temper block of Zereshk. Even having a point can never justify my voluminous criticisms of InShaneee's administrative decision. I ignored the fact that one's admin actions does not necessarily depend on what a person has immediately done. I do admit that I lost my temper again after I got blocked myself and have done what I shouldn't have done; and by doing so, I have poisoned the well. So did I after Zereshk's block.--Aminz 08:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

For you!!

		The Academic Barnstar
		The Academic Barnstar awarded by Aminz, to Itsmejudith for her good faith, fairness, friendliness and "high-quality" work on the dhimmi article. --Aminz 09:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome! Itsmejudith, why don't you add it to your userpage? --Aminz 20:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Itsmejudith, please see which one looks better: or . --Aminz 20:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the Babel? Sticking the Babel and userboxes together? --Aminz 21:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh! I am confused. Do you want to fill those two free slots? Am I right? The userboxes are already on the left. Sorry --Aminz 21:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I was always thinking that the free slots are some other userboxes that are yet to be downloaded, so was ignoring them. :P --Aminz 21:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, just wondering. Do you want to have the userboxes in one column? I am still confused actually. :) Thanks --Aminz 21:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how to do it actually. I tried but I failed. I think User:Tariqabjotu would be a good person to ask. I reverted back my edits to your userpage (I tried to remove the free slots and drag everything down a bit); I wasn't sure if it was better. Take care, --Aminz 21:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is tricky. I never dealt with them. Quoting Timothy : "Death to userboxes!" :) --Aminz 21:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Second International

And Tours Congress... Cheers! Lapaz 15:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Feedback

Judith, Any feedback here? Thanks. --Aminz 22:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Mark Cohen has got a good recent book on dhimmi: Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages. There he explains what he calls two myths: 1. "The Myth of an interfaith utopia" (i.e. the belief that medieval Islam provided a peaceful heaven for the Jews) 2. "The counter-myth of Islamic persecution of Jews". He claims they equally distort the past.

As far as I understood, he explains that "The Myth of an interfaith utopia" was so widespread till the 6-day war between Arabs and Israel. "The counter-myth of Islamic persecution of Jews" has been recently formed. It's all politics :(

--Aminz 22:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Keep on with it

Hey there, Itsmejudith, sorry that you're facing some challenges in your work with controversial topics. I'm sure your cool head is appreciated, keep up your good work. And I hope Esperanza can help you to relax a bit. -- Natalya 23:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

At least it will keep your way too many hours spent at Misplaced Pages more enjoyable. :) -- Natalya 23:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

And here's one for you

16:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)]]

Sorry about that bruising!

Hey there, Judith! I'm so sorry to hear you're discovering the less friendly side of Misplaced Pages. Controversial topics are dangerous territory, in the real world and in the Wikiworld. You seem like a great editor and person to me. Sometimes editors let their rough side show and you can get scraped, but under nearly every hard shell is a soft and caring soul, just like yours. I'd suggest for the time being working on less controversial topics, just to give yourself a little break, although I'm sure your work is greatly appreciated and very valuable. If you need a shoulder to lean on or a listening ear, I'll be right here and available on my talk page. I'll see if I can do anything about those less than friendly users, too. ;) Srose (talk) 20:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm so glad you found my comments helpful. :) I hope you'll come back soon: the kindness you spread and your wonderful contributions are greatly needed around here! :) Srose (talk) 13:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

August Esperanza Newsletter

Mizan

I created an article on Mizan, for quick reference. Maybe it'll help someday. TruthSpreader 04:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I am glad that you liked it. Javed Ahmed Ghamidi is a renowned scholar, who is also member of Council of Islamic Ideology, Pakistan Government. He is normally criticized by his peers for having liberal views. But I think he is not liberal at all. He still thinks that punishments in Qur'an are still applicable, but he does have differences, when they talk about implementation. For example, in Hudood law (Pakistan), adultery and rape has the same punishment and same criteria for registering the case (four witnesses to be produced, when filing the case). This is because of a mis-understanding of Islamic law. Ghamidi believes that punishment of adultery is only 100 lashes (married or unmarried) and punishment of rape is much harsher, as in case of spreading malficence in land, for which a person does not need four witnesses to register the case. Because of these loop holes in the system, people rape women and then these women could not get justice, which is terrible ;( But this book is different from many other book on fiqh, as it only gives, according to Ghamidi's understanding, the sharia or minimum what is ordained by God. I use it myself quite extensively. It is a pity that the last volume of the book hasn't been translated into English (I have read it myself in Urdu) because I think a person cannot remain unimpressed after reading the morals, which Islam asks from a person. Cheers! TruthSpreader 03:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You will be interested in reading these articles, Women in Islam and Rights and obligations of spouses in Islam, in which I used this book extensively as reference. TruthSpreader 04:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

Many thanks for the barnstar. Much appreciated. --Aminz 20:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, sorry for my delay in getting back to you. I realized I haven't responded back to you (I'll do it tomorrow). Cheers, --Aminz 08:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for you kind comments on my talk page. I really appreciate that. Hopefully you will see my work on wikipedia and give me any suggestions/comments to make them better. phippi46 22:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Ben's "big three issues" with NAS article

Going forward, I suggest a focus on dealing with these three issues with the NAS article. If we can effectively tackle these at least my concerns over the article will be addressed. My "big three issues" with the NAS articles are as follows:

• Neutering critics
• Confusing evidence with NAS's interpretation
• Article is about modern NAS theory, not term

What do you think? --Ben Houston 21:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Salam Sister

Hi Judith,

Thanks for your kind comments. Judith, I feel much better of wikipedia whenever I see your comments. Misplaced Pages should value presence of editors like you. NICE to meet you in wikipedia, Judith.

Peace to all Misplaced Pages brethren and sistren. --Aminz 23:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hi jusdith.. yes you are right, i may had been gone too far on Crop Circal issue, any way I just wanted to try atleast clear something to some of our respected editors that they should not forget that this is an encyclopedia, with intention to give free and fair information to the world. I admit it is very difficult to restrict yourself sometime not to give personal openion, as we some belief on ourself too much. However, I have learned my lesson, and hopefully others can do that too. Yes, I am trying to get some new ideas about the Islam related pages, but there is alots of work already done by many users, so it is little difficult, you see... if you any idea relating Islam related artical or any other thing you are working or want to work, I will be very happy to contribut, as I can. .. take care phippi46 13:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Judith, Thank you so much :) Warmest wishes, --Aminz 23:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Reach out

Any ideas that you have would be great, I really need some guidance on this. Righ now all I'm getting is 'you can't do this' and 'you can't do that' but no helpful advice.

perfectblue 06:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

September Esperanza Newsletter

thanks

Thanks for you input on my page St Pauls Church Worcester, im new to wikipedia and I didnt know how to change the title Otherwise I probs would have done it already.

lotrjb.photoguy1

thanks again

thanks again, but you took out some of my humor but never mind coz ill get it updated at some point then itll Look good.

lotrjb.photoguy1

Thanks/Merci

Hi Judith, thanks for your encouragement. As for my tendencies towards perfectionism, it's really more a question of my own actions, not the actions of others. Thanks for pointing out that ambiguity in my essay! And since you mention that you're at fr-5, I'll add this (and please forgive any mistakes — it's been a while since I've used French):

Salut Judith, je te remercie de tes mots encourageants. Quant à mes tendances perfectionnistes, il s'agit plutôt de mes propres actions que de celles des autres individus. Merci pour m'avoir signalé la signification ambigüe de ce que j'ai écrit! --Kyoko 05:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll stick to English this time. I use a Macintosh computer, so typing in the accent marks is just a question of remembering which keyboard shortcuts give you which accents. I believe that Windows PCs can do the same thing, but not in a system-wide, consistent manner — Word has one method, another method is to use the Character Map, etc. When I said that I have perfectionistic tendencies, it means that I'll do something, or say something, or write something, and then wonder if I should have said it a better way. It doesn't extend to what other people do or say. In that sense, Misplaced Pages isn't any more stressful than anything else, because I know that another person's edit isn't my fault. Furthermore, I know that if I make a mistake, someone else will probably fix it. --Kyoko 15:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops, see what I mean! I totally forgot to thank you for praising my French! Your French is fine, too. OK, so I admit that I'm going over in mind whether it's more correct to say "c'est fatiguant chercher..." or "c'est fatiguant de chercher", but it's not a big deal. Hmm..."c'est fatiguant, chercher..." sounds best to me, because it best mimics the change in vocal intonation between "fatiguant" and "chercher".

What I meant to say is that I won't try to control another person in a quixotic quest for perfection. My perfectionism could be called self-censorship, I guess. --Kyoko 15:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I enjoyed

Your definition of a really long time ago.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

salut, on peut dire aussi...

Salut Judith, si on veut dire "take it easy", on peut dire aussi "repsose-toi", "calme-toi", "ne te presse toi", et il y a sans doute d'autres manières d'exprimer le désir qu'on prenne les choses en douceur. Je n'essaie pas de te corriger. Je pense trop. Je parle trop.

Je te prie de m'appeler "Kyoko" au lieu de Tachikoma, parce que c'est mon vrai nom, et c'est un nom que je préfère à "Tachikoma". J'aurais dû donner mon vrai nom quand j'avais choisi mon nom d'utilisateur, mais à cette époque, je voulais être tout à fait anonyme. Merci pour cette conversation intéressante! --Kyoko 20:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

J'ai relu les phrases que tu as écrites, et tout d'un coup j'ai compris leur sens ironique! Il faut que je dorme un peu plus avant de répondre aux courriels! Malheureusement, un de mes médicaments provoque l'insomnie... --Kyoko 00:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to stick to English right now, because I'm a bit distracted, and English does come to me more naturally than French. Right now, I can't be sure whether it's "on peut dire aussi" or "on peut aussi dire".

I am doing better emotionally, but physically there are certain consequences to what I did, consequences that I will have to live with, but I don't want to depress you by mentioning them. Sorry to darken the general mood. It's a question of "do I put on a brave face and pretend that everything is great, or do I say what really concerns me and trouble everybody?" Anyway, I hope that you are doing well.--Kyoko 12:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You really want to know? --Kyoko 13:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

South Ronaldsay child abuse scandal

I live in a bad area so i see no good chavs but i will believe you (just). Yes i believe South Ronaldsay child abuse scandal is very relivent to the persicution of heathans page. The whole issue of satanic child abuse is very relivent especially as the kids where more likely to be abuse in care due to no security checks on social workers at this time.Hypnosadist 17:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:

Salaam Judith,

Nice to hear from you! And as usual thanks for your kind and interesting comment on my talk page! The good thing that I like about Watt is that he suggests to Christians to read about the concept of God in Islam in order to understand their own trinity better. and similarly to Muslims. So interesting to me! I feel he has taken the right strategy. I feel different people use different terms for the same concepts or approach the same concept in different ways. I think the missionaries of all religions should not say people that I have the truth and let me teach you what I believe but rather, I have something which may help you to understand your own religion better. Even the seemingly contradictory beliefs, can be reconciled together if the proper interpretations are adopted. I may be misguided, but am happy to confess that I have reconciled myself with the Bible at least as I much as I understand it. I do believe in salvation that came through Jesus and that Jesus died on the cross. On the cross issue, I am taking the view of a minority of Muslim scholars. I have seen many Christians and I should confess I have been overwhelmed by their sincerity and kindness. Their nice treatment of me has even influenced the way I read the Qur’anic verse on Christians. On the contrary, my main experience of contact with the Jews has been on wikipedia and ….

Judith, unfortunately I am really off in Taoism. I read the article on Tao but didn't get much out of it. I have got the feeling that balance in life is a very important concept. I tried to find the relevant qur’anic verses on this topic and found a few:

55:7-9. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.

2:143. Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves;…

42:17. It is Allah Who has sent down the Book in Truth, and the Balance (by which to weigh conduct).

83:1-4 Woe to those that deal in fraud,- Those who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure, But when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due. Do they not think that they will be called to account?-

57:22-23. No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence: That is truly easy for Allah. In order that ye may not despair over matters that pass you by, nor exult over favours bestowed upon you. For Allah loveth not any vainglorious boaster,-

25:67 Those who, when they spend, are not extravagant and not niggardly, but hold a just (balance) between those (extremes);…

Just a start point. :) Cheers --Aminz 09:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much Judith. I'll read Tao Te Ching and then, I think will have many questions to ask :P Cheers --Aminz 21:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

what's stressing me now

I'll just respond here, since I've disabled my Misplaced Pages e-mail access following what happened to another Wikipedian (complicated story, I don't know all the details, but I can guess what happened, and I would rather not gossip about it).

Anyway, I've had kidney disease for quite some time. The loss of blood during my suicide attempt was the final insult that made my kidneys stop working sufficiently well, meaning that now I have to go on dialysis. Also, if you have read my userpage, then you know that I have pulmonary hypertension. While I can get around OK right now, I also know that realistically, my condition will probably deteriorate within a few years, to the point where I will require a lung transplant, and both kidney disease and psychiatric problems are considered to be negatives when selecting who should be put on the transplant list. I'm working on an article right now about lung transplantation, in my sandbox, if you would like to know more. But basically, I'm a bit stressed because by my own actions, I may have eliminated any chance for a transplant should that become necessary.

This is why I didn't want to go into detail at first. --Kyoko 13:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You see? I didn't want to depress you, but now I fear that I have done just that. I may have thinking about the worst-case scenario when I last wrote you. Some people with PH pass away within a short time after diagnosis; others are able to survive for several years. In any case, it is a serious condition that affects life expectancy. I was fortunate enough to be diagnosed at a fairly early stage, so that fact is in my favor. I don't know if this saying exists in the UK, but there's a phrase of "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". I guess that applies to my situation.

As for editing various health-related topics, I suppose that it may be due in part to wanting to reach out. I really think it's more a matter of wanting to give back by building Misplaced Pages in the process, and learning some things along the way. It helps that I have some aptitude for both science and writing, so I think that it's important to convey scientifically accurate information in a form that that is easily understood by non-specialists.

I do have excellent medical care, because I live near one of the top teaching hospitals/transplant centres in the US, and I'm fortunate enough to have both good medical insurance and a comfortable income. There are support groups out there as well, which I admit I haven't yet interacted much with (I'm pretty shy in real life). Perhaps it's time that should change.

Since you mention health care systems, it really does bother me that in the United States, the value of a human life seems to be equated with a person's socioeconomic status. Regarding the allocation of donated organs, I understand from an cold, harsh, objective point of view why a person might be denied a chance at renewed life, but when it's your own life in consideration, it does worry me. I have the luxury (if you can call it that) of knowing that I'm not in immediate need of a lung transplant, and that my kidney function may yet be restored to adequate, if not normal, levels. The real solution to the scarcity of donated organs is to raise awareness of the need.

Thanks a lot for "listening".--Kyoko 21:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

A few more things. I don't feel particularly brave at all. There are many people who face different obstacles, and they cope with them. Comme on dit en français, je ne fais que me débrouiller de ma santé. Most often, I feel frustrated at not being able to do things that I used to do a lot.

Being all "dark and twisty", I do have a tendency to think about the worst that might happen, but I really do have a harder time handling emotional stresses than things involving my own health. As has become clear, my depression and tendencies towards anorexia are the most immediate threats to my health, and I'm currently under treatment for that and hope to get better. I had told Natalya that I've always been rather moody, and now I have to figure out what part of my streak of melancholy was due to depression and what part of it is really part of who I am.

Incidentally, I'm struck by the way that I managed to misquote the saying, "prepare for the worst, hope for the best" (the correct version). The way I had quoted it before seems to emphasize the bad side of things. I don't know if that unintentional mistake reveals anything significant, but it is interesting. --Kyoko 12:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Put another way, what choice do I have, or does anybody have when faced with some major hardship, than to learn how to deal with it? If that's seen as being brave, then fine, whatever, I don't care. I simply have a more complicated life than other people in some ways, while my own life is much easier than others as well. Most of the time, it's just a matter of certain inconveniences and frustrations: remembering which medications to take at which times, bumping up against certain physical limitations that I didn't have before, and so on.

I confess that at times I do feel scared. I worry about how my illness might progress in the future. I worry about dying. I worry that people will see me as being too fragile and won't trust me to able to do things (something that I can understand, but which really bothers me). I worry that I won't live up to people's expectations. I worry what people might be saying behind my back. I worry that I might not ever marry and have children. But this is all getting into the realm of insecurities that I've had for a long, long time.

My life is complicated, but I guess that everyone's life is complicated in its own way. --Kyoko 00:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Judith. I'm OK, I guess, I just get very tired now after frequent dialysis sessions. I suppose that they are just one more inconvenience I'll have to put up with. My doctors are hopeful that my kidney function will return to normal (well, my normal, which is basically like having a single normal kidney) sometime in the future. You were talking about bravery, or the perception of bravery. Me, I would rather be seen as nice than brave.

Thank you for being so nice! And yes, I am getting better, slowly. I notice that I'm somewhat more assertive, more willing to act rather than just assume that I can't do anything or that it's my fault.

I've been talking and talking all this time. How are you? --Kyoko 07:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Itmam al-hujjah

Would you please look at this article! TruthSpreader 16:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

food, anorexia

Salut Judith, ouais, j'aime beaucoup la cuisine du Québec! I guess the operative word for it is "hearty". It's filling, full of calories, nothing particularly ornate or refined (not like French haute cuisine, I mean), but just good. A lot of it also hearkens back to the past, when loggers' and trappers' families would prepare feasts for special occasions or simply to keep warm during the cold winters.

As for anorexia, it's not so much a problem of food quality as it is insecurity and finding fault in your self-image. I'm rather slight of build (1.67 meters, 51.1 kilos) which gives me a Body Mass Index of 18.3, which is slightly underweight. Even so, there are times when I look at myself and think that I should cut down on calories. I am significantly better than in the past, when I got down to 39.7 kg, or a BMI of 14.2. I really am trying to overcome this, but it's something that I've had ever since I was a teenager, and it's terribly easy to relapse into. In a sense, anorexia feels normal for me. I understand intellectually that I have to eat more in order to safeguard my health, but it takes effort to get over thinking patterns that you've had for a long time. I'm taking medication as well as seeing a therapist for my depression, which hopefully should also help with the anorexia. --Kyoko 14:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, we must have just missed each other between me logging out and you writing your message. The world you dream of would be a nice one, but in the real world, economics just get in the way. In the area where I live, there are quite a few people who will put up with an hour or two commute (each way, mind you) just so that they can buy affordable housing. It's even worse around Los Angeles. As for the Quebec cuisine article, yes, it could be expanded, but I already have so many Misplaced Pages projects that I'm working on, that it would probably best for me not to add that on to what I'm currently thinking about.

I'm still puzzling over whether it's "la cuisine du Québec" or "la cuisine de Québec". I'm a bit out of practice in speaking French. I can express myself very well, but I'll make little mistakes here and there. --Kyoko 19:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Whitewashing

Why are you whitewahing anti-Semites and anti-Semitism? Don't open that can of worms.Hkelkar 15:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Rajsekhar is an anti-semite is not POV, it's a well-sourced fact.Look at other anti-semites like David Duke and David Irving for precedent regarding the article which, as it stands, is well sourced and quite acceptable.

It's not just Rajshekhar. Your edits to the Jews in Italy article also suggests whitewashing anti-semitism. You seem like a good editor and thus I'm giving you a friendly and well-meaning piece of advice. Don't get involved in these matters.Hkelkar 15:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The evidence of Rajshekhar's antisemitism is in:

1. Heuzé, Gérard (1993). Où va l’Inde moderne? (p 87). L’Harmattan.
2. Poliakov, Léon (1994). Histoire de l’antisémitisme 1945-93 (P.395). Paris.

Plus, Dalit Voice (his rag) runs publications glorifying Hitler and the Third Reich, denies the holocaust and frequently alleges "Jewish Conspiracies" and other anti-semitic things. Everything to that effect is cited.Hkelkar 15:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The Nation of Ialam thing is from a news broadcast in which the NOI prevented the naming of a street somewhere in Maryland after Gandhi when these fringe kooks of the Dalit Bahujan movement told NOI that Gandhi was a "racist" for using the word 'Kafir' to refer to South Africans (once in an offhand remark, lol). Too much of this P.C. crap gets in the way of reeling such whack-jobs in. It seems that they picked up their love for Nazis from the radical Muslims and the NOI leaders (Farrakhan has also expressed admiration for Hitler).Hkelkar 23:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, incluing Rajshekhar in the anti-semite category is agreed upon by other wikipedia editors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Category_talk:Anti-Semitic_people#Please_inspect_the_latest_addition_to_this_category

You're afraid that wikipedia will get sued because of this? Who will sue wikipedia, the ghost of the legal offices of the Third Reich???Hkelkar 23:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)