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Revision as of 15:08, 10 October 2006

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Smuggling company masquerading as a state

For the past year or more, I have been trying to track down the elusive report which "funded by" the British Department for International Development and claims that Transnistria is a "smuggling company masquerading as a state." It is not on the department's website and when I contacted them, they said that they have no knowledge of such a report. I have also done all sorts of web searches, and the only references we get are citations of earlier Misplaced Pages articles and of the BBC article. One paper included it, but it had obviously gotten the quote from the BBC story and not from the report, and in fact no one to date even knows the title of the report or who wrote it. The fact that BBC published it is not proof of anything. BBC has also published that one of the Smirnov sons own Sheriff, and we now know - thanks to Moldpres, no less - that this is not the case. I would appreciate if anyone could help me track down this report. It has been a quest of mine for a long time to find out if it exists. - Mauco 22:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to contact the writer of the BBC article, Lucy Ash bogdan 22:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

If you don't hear back from her, please let me know. I don't know her but I am touch with one of her colleagues (also from BBC). So maybe I can help with finding out if she still works there, and maybe get a phone number for her. Just email me privately from my email link and I can probably assist you if you reach a dead end. - Mauco 22:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I sent a week ago a message to "Crossing Continents" asking to be forwarded to Lucy Ash, but I got no answer yet, possibly because:

BBC Radio 4's Crossing Continents is now off air until 9 November 2006

bogdan 21:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Sheriff not owned by Smirnov

Sheriff is a company with many stockholders - how do you know that Smirnov's son is not between them?--MariusM 09:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain, so if you want to say that Smirnov owns Sheriff, you just have to prove it. However, having said that, there is currently a trend to still try to smuggle misleading or just plain wrong information into the article by not claiming direct responsibility but by attributing them to a third party source. Example: If you say that Sheriff is owned by the Smirnov family, then someone will ask for verification and the claim (which is wrong) can therefore not be included. But if you say "BBC says that Sheriff is owned by Smirnov", then technically the claim is correct and could stay, which means that you succeeded in falsifying the article. You yourself, MariusM, have used this technique to great success and I will be happy to cite half a dozen examples, with logs, if you deny this. But since you ask about Sheriff, I will stay on topic. The most important principle is to remember that we have no obligation to include information that is factually wrong not even as a minority view or third party quote. This is called perpetuating a falsehood and this is contrary to the most basic Misplaced Pages policy. If BBC said it, or someone else said it, they now stand corrected by us. More often than not, the collaborative power of the Internet is better at correcting details and fact finding than a journalist working for the established mass media (as even such venerable sources as The New York Times have found out many times, to its chagrin). In the case of Sheriff, this was dealt with before you came here. I believe it is in Archive 4. One of the sources was Moldpres, the stateowned news agency of Moldova. There is also background information in the Talk page for Sheriff, regarding this same subject. - Mauco 14:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

History section, proposed sentence for deletion

In order to shorten the history section, I propose removing the following sentence:
"In May 2005, the Ukrainian government of Viktor Yushchenko proposed a seven-point plan for the settlement of the conflict between Transnistria and Moldova."
It will not disappear from Misplaced Pages because it is already present in History of Transnistria and will stay there. However, in the summary (on the main Transnistria article) we should only include important key points and the Yushchenko plan has turned out to not be one of those. When it was put forward, everyone had great hopes, but now it just fiddled out and has been relegated to a not-very-important part of history. I am posting this proposal here, in case anyone has any objections to this edit, so we can get a chance to discuss it first. - Mauco 23:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It is important. Some state proposing a "X-point plan" concerning your country means they feel quite strong on the issue to intervene in the politics of your contry. Dpotop 09:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Minor correction: Not my country. But thanks, and your comment is valued. Anyone else? - Mauco 12:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag

The flag shown at the Transnistria page is not the current one, just have a look at Transnistria's homepage: http://www.president-pmr.org/english/index_e.htm

See Flag of Transnistria. `'mikka (t)

In fact, that is the correct flag (see the talk page of that article). The discrepancy between descriptions meant for a foreign, English-speaking, audience and the flag's specs as provided for in PMR law are, I have no doubt, intentional. (The legislation--sorry, only in Russian--is available here: http://president-pmr.org/symbol/flag.htm) Jamason 01:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Alan, assume good faith. ;-) 99% of all the flags they use don't have the embarrassing "hot symbols" and the flag law is OK with that except for official use. But what really surprised me, though, was that on this particular 2nd of September you didn't have a single hammer and sickle in sight on any of the photos, and I am not just talking about the photos that were released to the West, but everywhere, even private snapshots. In fact, even the huge flag that the folklore dancers carried and then hoisted, it also didn't have it. No red star either. All the official flags, used by state that day, were the civil flags. I thought: "Hmm, these guys surely need to change their flag law now". However: this changed two weeks later, on referendum Sunday. CEC provided flags for all polling stations and some of them (not all) had the hammer and sickly symbols on them... - Mauco 04:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ukraine-Transnistria border customs conflict

This part needs an update from someone. I looked at the main article Ukraine-Transnistria border customs conflict and it has no news since March. It is now October. I can not update it: I do not know enough about this subject. I have started to do research but it is complex. (+don't speak Russian). I am trying to learn so I can edit here in the future. But not yet ready now. Can someone else update this part? - Pernambuco 13:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Still deadlocked. The latest is a series of tries by Transnistria in various Ukrainian courts of law (first Odessa, then Kiev) to overturn the measures. They have all been turned down. - Mauco 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"given proof of involvement by Moldovan police"

That is POV. A Moldovan policeman was caught having drugs. Claiming that the whole institution of Moldovan Police is involved is a bit presumptuous, isn't it? bogdan 22:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. The proof was his police ID and his arrest, but there is no indication in the sources that he acted on behalf of the Moldovan government. - Mauco 04:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Some numbers

Mauco, I was just looking over some figures:

• 2000: GDP: $283m; budget:$80m ~28.3% of the GDP (official figures)
• 2005: GDP: $420m; budget, my estimation: $117m
• cost of the Sheriff stadium: $250m

How the hell can one country build a stadium which costs more than half of the GDP and more than double the state budget? Economically, it is impossible, unless:

1. there is a very developed underground economy
2. there is some money laundering involved.

Do you have any logical explanation related to these figures for economy of Transnistria? bogdan 22:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

First, you should maybe scratch the "my estimation" parts because I have no idea what hat that came out of unless you explain a bit more, please. Secondly, Sheriff might be financing this over several years so a year-on-year comparison is apples vs oranges. Or they may be overstating the cost of the Stadium just for bragging rights (just like the losses from the "blockade" are overstated by an order of magnitude for other reasons). A lot of normal explanations are possible. Basically, with such a set of loose premises, I think that we are on too shaky ground to even make a guestimate of what the real situation might be. But it would certainly be good to dig into this and get some real numbers. By the way, did you see the new flashy Central Bank premises? They look like a competition to "out-Sheriff" Sheriff. - Mauco 04:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

My estimation was just the budget as percentage of GDP. Also, from what I've seen on their page, I don't think their estimate is far off.

Heh, competition:

"Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Eurasian organized crime at Keele University in England, said in an interview that the Trans-Dniester Republic maintained an uneasy peace between five to seven international criminal gangs with varying holds on power." (NYTimes)

bogdan 08:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah ... Sounds like an Anarcho-capitalism dreamworld. ;-)
:::(Galeotti, by the way, is probably the sloppiest of all Transnistria researchers, as you have no doubt seen if from his original article). - Mauco 12:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability, not truth

Misplaced Pages is not supposed to write the truth. We're just writing just major opinions on what the truth might be. That's the policy. If there were a consensus on what the truth is, then we might write it as if it were the truth. When the BBC, Washington Post and the like are saying something on an issue, you can't just discard because "western press are biased", "they know nothing on this", the POV they present is a notable POV and should be mentioned. bogdan 08:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Come on now, these are not the arguments. However, there is such a thing as notability, too, and this applies even more so to cases of presenting fallacies. We are dealing with very specific things here, both of which have been discussed in the past (see archives) and discarded for valid Misplaced Pages reasons. If we are re-including these two fallacies now - again, after already having been over this ground - we are merely going in circles. In the specific case of Sheriff, there is already a separate page Sheriff (company). This would be the appropriate place to introduce additional context, to avoid text forking. The summary included here (in main Transnistria) should then include a synopsis of the most the pertinent points from that article. You know that this is how it is done. I will assume good faith, as always, so let us hammer this out on this particular Talk page and decide on how we can present, to the readers, an accurate view of the situation. The BBC's statement is not a "point of view" but just a plain journalistic error and we are making an even bigger error if we give it the same time and space as what is now, later, known to be factually true. This does not make Misplaced Pages better as a resource for its readers; it makes it worse. - Mauco 12:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, it is incorrect to describe BBC's claim that Smirnov owns Sheriff as the "point of view" (POV) of the BBC. This is not BBC's opinion, but just a journalistic screwup and, as we know now, wrong. However, even if it was a "view", then recall that according to WP:NPOV, Misplaced Pages still aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. Here, the concerned parties are Moldova and Transnistria. The available evidence which superceedes that of the BBC article is from official sources on both sides, and they both agree that Sheriff is not owned by Smirnov. - Mauco 13:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me remind you Mauco that in Sheriff article talk page we agreed that we don't know exactly who the stockholders of Sheriff are. It seems that nobody checked if somebody from Smirnov family is or was in the past stockholder at Sheriff. Until we have clear data we can not conclude that it was a journalistic screwup.--MariusM 14:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

This dispute has been amply covered elsewhere (and settled, as any neutral Wikipedian would probably concede after studying the content of that page). Short of changing a couple of the five pillars, I don't see what else we can do at this stage, but anyone is of course welcome to join the discussion here: Talk:Sheriff (company). Let me also remind you, MariusM, that there is such a thing as majority viewpoints, minority viewpoints and plain fallacies. The latter should not be perpetuated if we are all aiming to make Misplaced Pages a useful research resource rather than a vehicle for personal bias. - Mauco 14:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but ...

Two days ago, British journalist Shaun Walker just published a report where he points out the danger of relying on sensationalist media reports as the main source of Transnistria info. See http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/10/05/009.html and note that Shaun Walker has actually visited Transnistria (which is more than can be said for 95%+ of the editors of Misplaced Pages Transnistria-related articles). He wrote:
With my information about the places filtered through the occasional sensationalist Western media report, I turned up in both cases excitedly expecting to find the final frontier; a gangster-ridden epicenter of weapons and human smuggling; a dark and wild version of the Soviet Union. Instead, what I got in both wannabe capitals was a sleepy provincial town, with tree-lined streets and ordinary people going about their business trying to make ends meet.
His onsite research match other recent reports from organizations who have taken the trouble to go there and spend time on doing the needed research, including the British government funded Saferworld in their newly published United Nations study on weapons. - Mauco 13:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The two day old report was published in the Moscow Times. Those familiar with The Moscow Times know that is not considered a Putin mouthpiece. If anything, many in Russia see it as the informal voice of the US State Department. It is often a training ground for Western diplomats and high officials in Western governmental organizations. The current OSCE Ambassador to Moldova, Louis O'Neill, worked at Moscow Times before moving to the State Department. - Mauco 13:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what he expected to see. Weapons smuggling and money laundering are not the kind of crimes that can be seen on the street in broad daylight. bogdan 13:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Mauco, the fragment you cited is pure propaganda. It contains exactly 0 information, because being a crime hub does not imply that you have to live in some Metropolis-like city with obvious bad guys patrolling the streets and shooting innocent people or creating infernal devices to destroy the world. Dpotop 17:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree the snippet is a little over the top nicey-nicey. Still, going by the reports one hear's of Transnistria you would expect guns and smuggling out in the open. We are often given the image that they do little in attempting to hide their actions, so it might be a little suprising to some to find a fairly ordinary-looking city with people acting like they do anywhere else. --Jonathanpops 11:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Jonathanpops, what happened to being my meatpuppet? I remember that MariusM was all over you when you agreed with me on something, and wanted to check you as sockpuppet as well, insinuating that you and me were both part of a huge KGB conspiracy? After all that, I would have thought that you'd agree with me and not with Dpotop. Seriously, though, to all: The key message of the Moscow Times article wasn't money laundering or smuggling but a need to be skeptical of "the occasional sensationalist Western media report". Walker, the journalist, actually took the trip and spent time in the place, which is something that most journalist never do. They write about Transnistria as if they are writing a B-movie Hollywood screenplay. I would go as far as to say that the collective efforts of Misplaced Pages editors provide a better source of combined research than much of what passes for journalism on Transnistria. Remember that we have already, through the efforts of many of us here on these pages, found serious errors in mainstream media reports, have sourced them, and have corrected them, right here. - Mauco 15:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Editor of "Tiraspol Times" engaged in sockpuppetry

I submited a request for checkuser and have the confirmation that Henco, an user who voted for external links in our article is a sockpuppet of MarkStreet, editor of Tiraspol Times (his vote was meantime removed). It seems that MarkStreet learned in Transnistria how to falsify a vote, Transnistrian referendum was a good lesson for him.

I suspected also Gallenweekend to be a sockpuppet, as he registered at Misplaced Pages in 7 october and the only thing he did was to vote for "Tiraspol Times" , no other contribution at Misplaced Pages. This suspicion was not confirmed, however I still have doubts, as MarkStreet was aware as of 6 October about the fact that he is suspected of sockpuppetry and could take measures to hide his sockpuppetry.

Not surprisingly, User:William Mauco was against investigation about possible sockpuppetry of MarkStreet, trying to accuse the scape goat Bonaparte for such behaviour

"Tiraspol Times" received a narrow vote for inclusion in out article, but I doubt about its merit, as is obvious that his editor is not an onest person. After a request to confirm that he is indeed editor of "Tiraspol Times", MarkStret put a link to his page on Misplaced Pages at "Tiraspol Times" webpage --MariusM 23:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting - and partly false, friend. When speaking of honesty (or "onesty", as you call it), you may want to check your log and post an apology for publicly putting words in my mouth which are not true and mischaracterize me (William Mauco). Both Khokhoi and myself immediately suspected Henco as a sockpuppet right from the start. I posted a notice on this talk page warning about all sockpuppets (and as you know, Marius, there were some on "your" side, too). Then Khokhoi, not me, was the editor who thought that this particular one - Henco - was Bonaparte's puppet. He struck the votes under that assumption. My mention of Bonni was in this context, and I did not confirm this, but merely pointed out to Khoi that it was a nonissue. You state that I was against investigation. Please show how this is true. It is not. You also state that I was accusing Bonaparte. Please show where I do so. I never did. - Mauco 13:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I have serious doubt that "Tiraspol Times" can be used as reliable neutral source, as it is separatist "news agency" and mainly propagates what Tiraspol regime is trying to implement. Also Mr Mauco judging from your comments and edits, I don’t think you have a neutral standing on this topic. I don’t think Misplaced Pages should be a sister company of “Tiraspol Times” or “Apsny Press.” We should separate political propaganda of Russian sponsored separatist regimes from encyclopedic information about the topic. Thanks for your attention. Ldingley 14:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Completely off topic. Ldingley, I was responding to an editor who was putting words in my mouth and lied in trying to entangle me in something I had no involvement in (and ought to apologize). Did you even read the sentence that you responded to? I didn't mention Tiraspol Times. As for edits of mine which are POV, instead of insinuating, why don't you do something constructively instead: point them out and let us correct them. I stand by my record, which shows that most of my time here is spent on exactly the opposite: Introducing balance into what has previously been a wrong and hopelessly onesided depiction of the issue. In that, I sometimes have to act as the devil's advocate, but don't confuse that with bias. - Mauco

Numbers

For Bogdan and others, a source of numbers can be found here: http://www.cbpmr.net/?id=10&lang=ru (for instance No.6-7, 2006). Detailed. Personally, I would not rely on the Finance Ministry numbers, but the ones from the Republican Bank look OK. Also keep an eye on the press service of the Supreme Soviet. So far, they are off to a good start, at http://www.vspmr.org - Mauco 03:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

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