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Transylvanian peasant revolt has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: November 3, 2017.

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Vlachs — nomadic or sedentary?

This article is severely biased. Stating that the revolters were a "group of Romanian peasants" is historically incorrect. As it stands, this article is just repeating the position of Ceausescu-era Romanian historiography. When I have time, I will write a more detailed account of the revolt. Scott Moore 09:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To be more specific about inaccuracies:

- the revolt did not start at Bobâlna

- it was not a group consisting only of Romanian peasants who revolted. The revolt was led by a Hungarian petty noble, three Hungarian peasants, a Romanian peasant and a burgher. Those revolting included both Romanian and Hungarian serfs, as well as burghers.

- The Unio Trium Nationum was not signed just by nobles (the nobles were just one of three Estates in the Union).

Scott Moore 09:59, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. In addition, it should not be called "Bobâlna revolt"--the name in common use at the time was "Bábolna", with the Romanian form only becoming official after Trianon. I strongly suggest correcting the name.4.231.162.235 08:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Another necessary correction is the replacement of the phrase: "While the Hungarians, the Hungarian-speaking Székelys and the Saxons formed sedentary communities, living in villages and towns, most Vlachs were shepherds, herding their flocks between the mountains and the lowlands." First of all, the allegation is highly offensive against the Romanian population of Transylvania - which where already a sedentary population centuries before the arrival of the above mentioned communities. Another issue is the source of this allegation: a dubious work, published in a "Slavic" review by an extremist so-called "historian". Moreover, the article does not see the clear ethnic aspect of this revolt and is insisting only on the so called social aspect of it. The article reminds me the (ideological) history lessons from the communist history manuals for school children, during Ceausescu regime. I suggest the urgent revision or replacement of this highly un-professional article. Articles like that are lowering of the level of Misplaced Pages as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Transylvanian (talk • contribs) 11:30, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Why is that statement offensive? Why did the Vlachs customarily pay sheep as in kind tax if they were not pastoralists? What is the reliable source stating that the uprising had a clear "ethnic aspect"? Borsoka (talk) 13:25, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

You are right in affirming that some Romanians were involved in animal husbandry. BUT the Romanians are not a nomadic population. The large majority of them live in sedentary communities and only a small fraction of the population is involved in transhumance (seasonal migration of the herds between mountain and lowland pastures). Here are some reliable historical sources, by Transylvanian, local, unbiased historians: - "Romanians and Hungarians from the 9th to the 14th Century. The Genesis of the Transylvanian Medieval State", Cluj-Napoca, Center for Transylvanian Studies, 1996

- "A Social History of Romanian Space.From the Beginning of Dacian state until the rise of Modernity", Mircea Brie, University of Oradea, Romania, 2005

Budai Nagy Antal Revolt or Bobalna Revolt?

This was the first major peasant revolt in the history of Hungary. The revolt is called "Budai Nagy Antal Revolt" by Hungarians and "Bobalna Revolt" by Romanians. Google search gave

• 861 pages for: Bobâlna revolt (many of these are copies of this very article)
• 1640 pages for:"Budai Nagy Antal" revolt
• 538 pages for: Răscoala de la Bobâlna
• 1340 pages for: "Budai Nagy Antal" felkelés

I suggest that the article is renamed accordingly. --KIDB 14:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

There have been no comments until today, I do the changes.--KIDB 11:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Name

@Norden1990:, would you look at the title of the article dedicated to the revolt (I mean, Joseph Held's work)? I think the previous title is more in line with WP:Name. Borsoka (talk) 17:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

J. Held's work is only one source. There are "Bábolna" or "Bobâlna", but "Babolna" is incorrect. We should use Hungarian accents properly even an English-language publication did not use it. "Transylvanian peasant revolt" or its similar versions (uprising etc.) are more common. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

OK. "Transylvanian peasan revolt" can be verified. Borsoka (talk) 01:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Transylvanian peasant revolt/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kpalion (talk · contribs) 11:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Borsoka, I will be reviewing the article. Looks very well after the first reading. Specific comments coming soon! — Kpalion 11:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your review. Please let me know on this page if any action is needed. Borsoka (talk) 12:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

An interesting and well-written article with ample citations. I have no access to the sources so assuming good faith. Some issues need to be addressed, though, especially regarding neutrality, clarity and breadth of coverage. If there are any suggestions you don't agree with, please discuss. — Kpalion 12:52, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   • Please settle on one variety of English. For now, the date format is British (day, month), but the word traveling follows U.S. spelling.

   • First of all, thank you for your comprehensive and thorough review. I highly appreciate your hard work. Please find my comments below. Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   • Sorry, I cannot differentiate the several varieties of English, but I changed the word "traveling" (). Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   • The <Hungarian place name> (now <Romanian place name> in Romania) pattern is quite repetitive. Perhaps it could be avoided by stating at the beginning of the "Background" section that Transylvania was a geographic region in the Kingdom of Hungary that now lies entirely in Romania. And then explain that historical Hungarian (or German) place names will be followed by their modern Romanian equivalents in parentheses. This way, you could just write <Hungarian place name> (<Romanian place name>) throughout the article.

   • Thank you. Changed (). Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   •  Thank you — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

   Some fragments are not clear to me:

   • Union of the Three Nations: The representatives of the noblemen, Székelys and Saxons had never held a joint assembly without the authorization of the monarch. Does it mean that this was the first time they met without royal authorization?

   • Thank you. Changed (). Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   •  Thank you — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

   • Last phase: There is no evidence of the appointment of the delegates or their departure for Prague. When introducing Sigismund of Luxemburg, it might be good to add that he was also an emperor and a king of Bohemia. Otherwise, the reader may be wondering what a king of Hungary was supposed to be doing in Prague.

   • Thank you. Changed (, ). Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   •  OK — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   Please make sure that the capitalization of official titles (such as "king", "bishop" or "voivode") conforms to MOS:JOBTITLES. For example: John had been declared an Antipope → John had been declared an antipope.

   • Thank you. Changed (). Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   • I've caught a few more. — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Earwig OK

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   The article has left me with some questions unanswered. If the rebels had won the battle of Dés, then why did they agree to a new compromise that was less beneficial to them than the previous one? The "Aftermath' section is particularly skimpy. What was the final result of the revolt for the peasants? Did they get to keep at least some of the concessions or did they fall back to status quo ante?

   • Thank you. Expanded (). I need some more time to work on the "Aftermath" section. Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   • Looks much better now. Thank you. One small comment here, though: perhaps it would be good to briefly introduce Stephen Báthory, especially that he can be easily confused with the Polish king. — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

   • Thank you. His office (judge royal) added ().

   •  Thank you. — Kpalion 10:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   The "Background" section is very helpful.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   • Please address the issue of Vlach nomadism raised at Talk:Transylvanian peasant revolt#Vlachs — nomadic or sedentary? Transylvanian has provided criticism and sources, which should not be ignored (if you believe these sources are not reliable, please explain why). Also, if there are historians who discuss the revolt in ethnic terms, then this should also be covered by the article.

   • I am pretty sure that Transylvanian presents fringe theories as mainstream scholarly views. @Transylvanian:, could you quote texts showing that the revolt is discussed in ethnic terms in reliable sources? Could you also quote texts showing that there are historians who say that the shepherds only formed a minority group among the Vlachs in 15th-century Transylvania? Thank you for your cooperation. Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   •   Transylvanian has not responsed, but the article now discusses the ethnic issue (or lack thereof). — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

   • Some section titles ("Bishop Lépes's greed", "Victory and compromise") clearly reflect the rebels' point of view. Please change them to something more neutral.

   • Thank you. Changed (, ) Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

   •  Thank you — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   The stained glass looks quite modern. Is it certain that it is not protected by copyright (note that the photograph in this case is a derivative work).

    Not resolved. The copyright status is still not clear to me. It seems that Commons:User:Țetcu Mircea Rareș is the author of the photograph, but not the author of the stained glass. Per Commons:2D copying, a photograph of a 2-dimensional work of art "does not generate any new copyright because the resulting work is defined entirely by the original work; there is no creative input. Therefore, authors who create 2D copies are not entitled to copyright for these works, and the copyright of the original work applies." So either we can ascertain that the stained glass is in public domain (although this is not obvious to me) and then the photograph is also in the public domain or it's copyrighted and the photograph should be deleted. In any case, I still can't see much relevance of this image to the article. — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

   Thank you. I opted to delete the picture (). Borsoka (talk) 03:25, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

    Thank you. — Kpalion 10:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   How relevant are the illustrations of Alba Iulia, which is not even mentioned in the article?

   • Thank you. I expanded the caption (). Borsoka (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Borsoka, thank you for the changes made so far. I will put the nomination on hold for two weeks to let you expand the Aftermath section and resolve the copyright status of the stained-glass photograph. And, possibly, to get a response from Transylvanian. If you're done sooner or wish to extend the on-hold period, please let me know. — Kpalion 11:18, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

@Kpalion:, I expanded the "Aftermath" section of the article (). I think the copyright status of the stained glass photograph is clear (). Borsoka (talk) 07:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Borsoka, thanks for addressing my comments. There are still two minor issues, but once they're sorted out, it's good to go. — Kpalion 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Kpalion, again thank you for your review. I hope I fixed both issues. Please let me know if further actions are needed. Borsoka (talk) 03:25, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Borsoka, and congratulations! This is a good article. — Kpalion 10:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Kpalion, for your comprehensive review and support. Have a nice day. Borsoka (talk) 10:47, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Orthodoxy

What were the negative consequences of the Vlach peasants' Orthodox religion in Hungary? They did not pay the tithe, while Catholic peasants were obliged to pay this 10% ecclesiastic tax. (Vlachs were only obliged to pay the tithe if they settled in a land abandoned by Catholic peasants.) The Vlachs paid only the fiftieth (that is a 2% tax), while Hungarian and Saxon peasants the ninth (a 10% tax). Borsoka (talk) 16:08, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

WHY do you keep removing the added content and references cited? Please, carefully review the Misplaced Pages:Five pillars. (Rgvis (talk) 17:33, 12 November 2017 (UTC))

Because they contain highly dubious information. (1) "At the end of the 13th century, the Orthodox Vlachs were still on a footing of equality with the other three privileged groups.": There were several (more than three) privileged groups in Hungary (and Transylvania), including noblemen, clergymen, burghers, Székelys, Vlachs, Pechenegs, etc., but their privileges were quite different, so they were not "on a footing of equality". (2) "The Romanians suffered the additional disability of adherence to the Eastern Orthodoxy, which in predominantly Catholic Hungary was considered a deviant and sometimes even a heretical form of Christianity. They occupied the lowest rung of the social ladder, superior only to slaves." : What were the negativ consequences if a peasant was Orthodox in Hungary/Transylvania? Please carefully review WP:DUE and WP:PARAPHRASE. Borsoka (talk) 17:48, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

All informations are based on references cited! It is not for wikipedia editors to make judgment on history events (Misplaced Pages:No original research. (Rgvis (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2017 (UTC))

Yes, but we do not need to present dubious, marginal information, as per WP:DUE. Are you really sure that Setton-Watson's book, published in 1934, still contains relevant information? Moreover, you are obviously in breach of WP:PARAPHRASING. Borsoka (talk) 18:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Books published in 1934 can still have value but additional sources would make the justification for inclusion stronger, and tertiary sources can help to resolve what is WP:DUE. The caveat is that setton-watson is politically involved in the Balkans during the Post-WWI period and should not be used uncritically - additional secondary sources which discuss his analysis would be preferable, if they are available.Seraphim System 19:09, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I also provided two other different sources: , . For sure, there are a lot many others. (Rgvis (talk) 19:25, 12 November 2017 (UTC))

Are those books available in English? You are allowed to use foreign language sources, but the strong preference is for English language sources under WP:V - the reason for this is so we can verify. Also, the page numbers linked to do not seem to be available. Seraphim System 19:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Rgvis, please read my above comment and try to react. We do not need to add all dubious, margional POVs. If we do not know what were the negative consequences if a peasant was Orthodox in Hungary/Transylvania, we do not need provide this information. (Especially if we take into account that an Orthodox peasant paid less tax than a Catholic peasant, which suggest that an Orthodox peasant's position was more favorable than his/her Catholic peer.) Borsoka (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

• This book explains that Romanian peasants settled on the land were Orthodox which created a problem with the Catholic Church over the tithe, which they were forced to pay. This was before the debasing of the currency - the background section would benefit from revision as calling Romanians Vlachs does not really help the average reader. It's also not clear how this is relevant:

The voivodes presided over the noblemen's general assemblies, which were annually held at a meadow near Torda (Turda). The Transylvanian noblemen were exempted from taxation in 1324. They were also granted the right to administer justice to the peasants living in their estates in 1342. The prelates acquired the same right in their domains in the second half of the 14th century. From the early 15th century, the voivodes rarely visited Transylvania, leaving the administration of the counties to their deputies, the vice-voivodes.

Since we are discussing WP:DUE, I think the entire background section would benefit from a rewrite. Seraphim System 19:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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