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Revision as of 18:09, 15 November 2017 editMastCell (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators43,155 edits →Result of the appeal by Volunteer Marek: c← Previous edit Revision as of 18:28, 15 November 2017 edit undoGoldenRing (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,924 edits →Statement by GoldenRingNext edit →
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I don't regard informing TTAAC as a breach of the IBAN; it comes under the provision for "addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum" of ]. ] (]) 17:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC) I don't regard informing TTAAC as a breach of the IBAN; it comes under the provision for "addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum" of ]. ] (]) 17:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

:{{re|Sandstein|MastCell}} The IBAN between TTAAC and VM is mainly about the interaction that VM links above. VM pretends above that it didn't involve TTAAC at all yet the title of that section is a link to a diff of VM responding to TTAAC. As for his other questions ({{tq|Where exactly does this comment "belittle" TTAAC}} and so on) - it wasn't me that characterised the comment that way, it was TTAAC. That VM objects to TTAAC's characterisation of his comments so vehemently is evidence in favour of the IBAN, not against it.
:Moreover, the point of these sanctions is to reduce disruption in the AP2 topic. VM appears to have taken the IBAN rather personally when it wasn't entirely intended as such; it was meant to separate editors who clearly don't get along, not punish VM for negative interactions with TTAAC. It is, in fact, preventative, not punitive. If I believed in one-way IBANs I would have seriously considered making the IBAN one-way; I don't, so I didn't (I'm still not sure what the result of such consideration would have been).
:While I understand some of MastCell's reasoning in his second paragraph, it appears to be an argument against ''ever'' imposing IBANs under DS, since in virtually every case they involve editors who edit in the same topic area. Yet IBANs are specifically authorised by ]. These are not the only editors active in this area and if something needs comment or removal, other editors can do it. ] (]) 18:28, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


===Statement by (involved editor SPECIFICO)=== ===Statement by (involved editor SPECIFICO)===

Revision as of 18:28, 15 November 2017

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    Volunteer Marek

    This needs to be resolved. While I generally agree that the 'consensus required' restriction has some drawbacks, attempts to remove it have met no consensus, the admin who imposed it has come back from a seven-month absence to endorse it and, per TonyBallioni below, the restriction was in place, the editor was very aware of it (having been reported for the same thing only a month ago) and it should be enforced. If someone wants to try crafting a new restriction to replace it, they are welcome to post a new section here or at AN to start a discussion which could replace it. In the middle of a complaint about a violation is not the place to have that discussion. Moreover, the disruption around this subject needs to stop. Therefore:
    • James J. Lambden and VolunteerMarek are banned from all articles and edits related to Donald Trump, broadly construed, for one month and warned that further such disruption will lead to longer sanctions.
    • James J. Lambden and TheTimesAreAChanging are banned from interacting with Volunteer Marek for three months and vice-versa, per the normal terms of an interaction ban. The only exception, apart from the usual ones is that they may make reports of violations of this sanction (the IBAN) to this noticeboard. They are counselled against the use of the exemptions for vandalism and BLP violations except in the most obvious of obvious cases.
    • TheTimesAreAChanging, James J. Lambden, Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO are warned to edit collegially and assume good faith.

    GoldenRing (talk) 10:31, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Volunteer Marek

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff) :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 05:34, 8 November 2017: Volunteer Marek adds content sourced from Business Insider to Donald Trump–Russia dossier.
    2. 06:21, 8 November 2017: James J. Lambden reverts the portion of Volunteer Marek's edit sourced to Business Insider, stating: "trim; rm Business Insider, if accurate a reliable source should not be hard to find".
    3. 05:36, 8 November 2017: Having been reverted for WP:BOLDly changing the lead in the middle of an ongoing RfC on November 2, Volunteer Marek again tries his hand at rewriting the lead to reflect breaking news.
    4. 06:20, 8 November 2017: Volunteer Marek's BOLD lead changes are reverted by James J. Lambden, stating: "revert lede changes; consensus on talk is against". (James J. Lambden's concurrent edits at 06:20 and 06:21 count as a single revert.)
    5. 06:39, 8 November 2017: Volunteer Marek reinstates the Business Insider source and all of the disputed content derived from it, violating the Discretionary Sanctions requirement that "You ... must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article". Volunteer Marek also reinstates his preferred lead, apparently claiming immunity from DS because "Lede change based on new info".
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 13 December 2016.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Volunteer Marek was just let off the hook for another clear-cut DS violation in October because—while all parties acknowledged the violation—no admin was actually willing to sanction him. Rather than admit error in this case, Volunteer Marek personally attacked James J. Lambden, calling him "obnoxious and creepy" and responding to James J. Lambden's DS warning as follows: "fuck off you creep you know you're not welcome". (James J. Lambden did not respond in kind to these and other aspersions by Volunteer Marek.) Volunteer Marek also belittled me and suggested that I was acting in bad faith for pointing out that his repeated DS violations are not appropriate, thus prompting me to file this report.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    MastCell, I did not allege that Volunteer Marek violated 1RR. James J. Lambden's second revert was arguably exempt from 1RR because otherwise the "consensus required" and 1RR requirements cancel each other out whenever the editor making disputed edits reverts once. While I agree that the "consensus required" rule that Volunteer Marek violated is archaic and enables tendentious WP:GAMING, as long as it is on the books it should be enforced consistently: Admins often seem eager to interpret Volunteer Marek's actions in the most charitable light possible, but I do not think that such courtesy is generally extended to other editors in similar circumstances. I support rescinding the "consensus required" warning from the article if it is not enforced in this case. I have also amended my earlier timeline for greater clarity.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:12, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    It's ironic that Volunteer Marek is simultaneously accusing James J. Lambden of blindly reverting him and maintaining that because James J. Lambden's edit was only a partial revert specifically challenging the reliability of one Business Insider opinion piece that he couldn't have known it was a revert at all. Compare that with his comments at this same venue just last month, in which he similarly claims that his DS violation was unintentional because "it's sort of hard to understand the objection" and attacks the filer of the report for "playing some 'gotcha' game." As GoldenRing says, Volunteer Marek's recidivism is relevant to this case. Personally, I thought that Volunteer Marek's position was far more credible last time around.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 14:12, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Volunteer Marek

    First, I want to note that I made a proposal to remove the "consensus required" provision from the template here. Several administrators in the past have stated that their intent was just to add the "1RR restriction" DS to a page but inadvertently added the "consensus required" provision ONLY because it comes "packaged" into the template. When asked about enforcing it they've expressed no interest in doing so, as has been noted below.

    Second, and relatedly, yes, that provision is stupid for a whole host of reasons, one of which is that a tendentious user can just jump in, blindly revert and then "demand consensus" (which they have no intent of working towards). This is more or less what's happened here. I don't know if I've violated the provisions - Lambden changed the wording and removed a part of my edit. He did not entirely remove my edit. I can't tell if that's an over all "challenge" to my edit (it wasn't a revert but a rewrite) or just a rewording. I guess it's a "partial challenge". Or something. The "consensus required for challenged material" provision is stupid.

    There's no BLP issue here and nobody's ever raised a BLP objection. Business Insider is fine as a source.

    Regarding the "unverified" wording. The removal of that info occurred before Nov 2 (late October), and the info that and the testimony by Page which, according to sources, explicitly verified some info. Basically, the information that's out there in sources changed and hence an update to the article was needed. If you update an article with brand new sources, is that a revert? However, if this was all there was to this disagreement, I'd be happy to wait on it.

    My comment to Lambden, which TTAAC brings up, was NOT in response to his DS warning. It was in response to his continued posting of taunting comments on my talk page. I have asked him MULTIPLE times before not to post on my talk page. He knows that I regard his actions regarding me as constituting WP:HARASSMENT - he follows me to articles he's never edited before and makes blind reverts just to mess with me. Other users (User:SPECIFICO, User:Snooganssnoogans and I believe User:NorthBySouthBaranoff have made similar complaints regarding Lambden, so it's sort of a general problem with his WP:NOTHERE editing on Misplaced Pages; he has trouble interacting with editors whom he regards as having wrong political views). Hence his posting to my talk page JUST AFTER I removed his previous comment was pretty clearly made with an intent of ... being annoying.

    As for "consistent enforcing" of the "consensus required" provision. I don't believe I personally ever filed a report on anyone for violating that provision (if I did it was so long ago that I've forgotten). Precisely because I think it's a stupid provision. I'm also pretty sure that the sanction is NOT generally enforced, except in cases where there's some other form of chicanery going on. So ... "consistent enforcing" here would be to ignore it.  Volunteer Marek  12:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    @TTAC - nothing ironic there. What constitutes a revert is pretty clear cut. What constitutes a "challenge" (which is what I specifically discuss) is not. That's part of what makes this "consensus required" restriction so confusing. Volunteer Marek  16:34, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    Just wanted to point out that while I may or may not have violated the "consensus required" provision (which is inane and easy to forget about since it goes against the spirit of Misplaced Pages's BRD guideline) unlike Lambden I did not violate 1RR. Furthermore, once the DS violation was pointed out, I did not restore the part of my text (it's still not in there) - and personally, whenever *I* see someone violating this particular provision or even the 1RR provision I do them the courtesy of reminding them of it first, rather than running off to WP:AE to try and "score points" and agitate for sanctions. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I've performed this courtesy for the filing editor, User:TheTimesAreAChanging on several occasions - there have been several instances, where I could have reported him here but instead just approached them on their talk page and said "hey, remember there's that DS sanction, be careful". That is why it's so disappointing that the courtesy is not being returned and that TTAC has instead chosen to revert to the type of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior (and yes, filing WP:AE reports when not needed is exactly that) which characterized his editing before his (now expired (lifted?)) topic ban in this area. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. Volunteer Marek  14:23, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

    Here is the last example of what I'm referring to above . TheTimesAreAChanging violated 1RR on the article Donald Trump on social media. I could've run here and reported him. Instead I went to his talk page and just reminded him of the restriction. When he replied I indicated that I was happy to assume good faith and let it go . I'm pretty sure there have been similar situations elsewhere and I've acted in a similar manner (though I think my comments were on talk). Now I'm saying to myself "you've been here 12 years, you know how Misplaced Pages often works, why did you try to be nice, why didn't you just go report him when he violated the sanctions - then he wouldn't be here today reporting you". Such is life on Misplaced Pages I guess. Volunteer Marek  14:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

    Another 1RR violation by Lambden
    • (first) revert of
    • (second) revert of

    So first that second revert is indeed a revert since it concerns the contentious quote by Goodin. Now, I'm guessing Lambden is gonna argue that it's not a revert because he didn't "EXACTLY" restore the same text (he's tried using this argument before). But compare "Dan Goodin, of the technology site Ars Technica, said he was disappointed in the report which provided "almost none of the promised evidence" linking Russia to the DNC hack" to "Ars Technica security editor Dan Goodin wrote that, "The US government's much-anticipated analysis of Russian-sponsored hacking operations provides almost none of the promised evidence linking them to breaches that the Obama administration claims were orchestrated in an attempt to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.". It's the same thing, just paraphrased.

    Second, Lambden knows this is a revert and knows that there was no consensus to include it because he participated in the discussion and attempted to (unsuccessfully) have this piece of text added before .

    Third, and in light of second, it seems strange that Lambden would actually restore this text and violate 1RR in doing so. I'm guessing - and pardon my lack of good faith here - that the revert was made to provoke a revert from someone else (prolly myself, maybe User:Geogene or User:SPECIFICO) which could then be leveraged into a sanction-seeking report. It seems Lambden has adopted the "I'm willing to go down, as long as I take someone with me" tactic here (and GoldenRing's suggestions sort of play into that kind of strategy). Volunteer Marek  18:49, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

    So Lambden, instead of explaining why you violated 1RR for the second time in, what?, two days?, you instead drag out some old diffs and pretend they're 1RR/3RR violations by me (they're not, and this was already covered at the time). Man, talk about Whataboutism. This is like some Misplaced Pages version of "But her emails!!!!" - when your own disruptive behavior is brought to light, don't even bother denying it, just try to deflect it and change the subject. Volunteer Marek  01:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

    OKay, this is pretty desperate.

    • "that VM is now calling a 1RR violation" - Lambden, are you saying that was NOT a 1RR violation? It's not me "calling" it, it IS a 1RR violation. Your second one in two days.
    • What in the world does this edit have to do with this 1RR violation? It's a completely different article that has nothing to do with anything here. Lambden just looked for some instance of somebody saying something "negative" about me so he could add it here. It's a smear.
    • As to the 1 year old WP:AE report I filed against that user , which Lambden falsely calls "frivolous". Yeah, I'm actually wondering why the admins dropped the ball on that one. In that instance the editor in question changed "it was reported she gained too much weigh and rumors began to circulate", which was bad enough, to "it was reported that she swelled to more than 160 pound", a pretty straight up and very obnoxious BLP violation (there were also other BLP violations. The article in question, on Alicia Machado was subject to a coordinated attack (organized off wiki, on reddit and 4chan). Look at all the edits to the talk page that had to be rev del'd between September 30 2016 and October 6 2016 and on the article itself during roughly the same time . Yeah, I would love to know why there was no action taken - I'm assuming it's cuz the archive bot got to it first or something. It was anything than "frivolous". I mean, unless you happen to think that attacking women and making fun of their weight is what Misplaced Pages is for (Lambden might be thinking of twitter or reddit. KotakuInAction is it?)
    • Lambden says "Comments about VM's behavior by all editors in that request are just as valid " - would these be the comments by "User:Paul Keller", the sock puppet (one of dozens) of another serial harasser and stalker User:Lokalkosmopolit, that's been indef banned?

    Lambden's violated 1RR on two articles in two days. The second violation was made while this report was already open. It's a pretty clear cut case of "I don't care about rules and I intend to be disruptive". He can bring up some irrelevant AE report from one year ago, or post diffs to some edits on completely different articles, and make up whatever nonsense about these he wants to, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still two 1RR violations in two days, AFTER being made aware of the first one. This is sort of how Lambden operates. Whenever the facts/sources/evidence is against him, he tries to deflect and when someone points out that they're engaging in disruptive behavior he employs the "uh uh, I know you are but what am I" tactic, basically ensuring that no productive discussion can be had. THAT "is not how consensus editing is supposed to work". Volunteer Marek  20:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved Softlavender

    I can't speak to the actions of James J. Lambden or what to do regarding him, but I would recommend against a topic-ban for VolunteerMarek unless the situation gets out of hand. I say this because, although over-zealous at times, he does excellent work in the political sphere. I would also recommend that the "consensus required" dictum re: replacing cited info be removed from the posted sanctions, as we've had complaints about it here and agreements to fix that, but it hasn't been done. Also, as GoldenRing has noted, Coffee isn't going to be returning to Misplaced Pages, so another admin needs to step up and change the sanction or initiate a proceeding to officially decide to change it. Softlavender (talk) 12:33, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by James J. Lambden

    MastCells' characterization of my 1RR accusation against VM as an "aggravating factor" assumes it's groundless or insincere which is it not. I presented it clearly twice, here again:

    This occurred while an RfC to settle this exact question - whether "some" or "partially" should be used - was in progress violating consensus required as well as RfC procedure. VM has repeatedly ignored RfC procedure in political articles, most egregiously at Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials where he repeatedly restored disputed text during an RfC (@D.Creish:)

    1. 02:44, 14 September 2017
    2. 03:42, 14 September 2017
    3. 13:22, 14 September 2017
    4. 13:02, 15 September 2017
    5. 16:14, 15 September 2017
    6. 20:21, 17 September 2017
    7. 15:59, 21 September 2017
    8. 03:48, 23 September 2017
    9. 20:54, 23 September 2017
    10. 17:43, 27 September 2017
    11. 20:39, 27 September 2017

    VM's use of language offensive not just in verbiage but meaning, and aspersions which have persisted for months ("fuck off you creep", "Please fucking stop stalking my edits you creep", "obnoxious and creepy stalker", "You're freakin' obsessed and it's creepy as fuck. Get a life") should be addressed.

    Immediately following this dispute VM made a "revenge revert" at Daily Caller then proceeded to Uranium One (an article he had never edited) to restore text that I had removed a week earlier. This behavior should be addressed.

    These topics are covered by DS with the expectation of higher scrutiny. I am seeing the opposite and it has created an atmosphere of unproductiveness and hostility.

    The rules of the page in question specify consensus required and 1RR, so we have one the one hand:

    1. A violation of consensus required in two instances
    2. A violation of 1RR
    3. A restoration of disputed text during an RfC

    and on the other:

    1. A violation of 1RR

    The suggestion below is the latter be sanctioned and the former ignored.

    I reverted a straightforward consensus required violation (and a poorly-sourced edit which has not been restored) specifically because it violated DS. It is not preventative to mislead editors with a provision posted in authoritative language, disregard it after the fact to eliminate justification, then hold them responsible for an unjustified revert. If the consensus required provision will not be enforced it should be made clear. Had it been I would not have reverted. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


    Addendum: A day ago I filed an edit-warring complaint against an editor who made 6 reverts claiming a BLP exemption to remove the word "bipartisan" in the description of a lobbying firm. Although no source was provided (the claim was in the lede) it was easily sourced and the article now includes it. That complaint was dismissed and the BLP defense accepted.

    Here I removed an inaccurate BLP claim* The claim is not included in our current article because it's incorrect. I made 2 reverts to remove it yet that is not seen as justification and no mention is made of VM's edit-warring to reinsert an inaccurate BLP claim by anyone but GoldenRing.

      * The inaccurate BLP claim is the line: "The meeting was also documented in the dossier and confirmed in Page's testimony, as well as by US intelligence sources." Neither the Steele dossier nor the intelligence community document a meeting with Baranov. They claim a meeting with Sechin which is not confirmed by Page's testimony. James J. Lambden (talk) 04:37, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


    @Volunteer Marek: That discussion was painful to re-read. I had forgotten the extent of obstruction in that article. I don't share your interest in "gaming" strategies. I don't have the time and more importantly I rarely file complaints so it would do me no good. If you want to get picky about reverts then your violations are even more clear:

    That is just what I could find easily. You often remove the default edit summary from your reverts even when character count is not an issue, making them difficult to track. Maybe that is more so-called "strategy." James J. Lambden (talk) 23:47, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


    I noticed the text I added (that VM is now calling a 1RR violation) was restored by a 14 year old account. Examining the editor's history I see this edit-summary from a week ago - "Self rv i forgot it's marek... i'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole" - an established editor reverting what he considers an improvement solely because of VM's hostility. That is not how consensus editing is supposed to work.

    I wondered about their previous interaction so I followed that comment to this frivolous AE complaint VM had filed against him. So frivolous that not one administrator commented before it was archived. Scrolling down I see my own comment, which I had forgotten - comment.

    Comments about VM's behavior by all editors in that request are just as valid now as they were a year ago. His behavior has not changed nor I suspect has the inability of our processes to deal with it. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by power~enwiki

    For those suggesting a topic ban: would it be for all of AP2, or just "Trump/Russia" topics? power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    Unfortunately, I don't think that a healthy serving of WP:TROUT will be enough here. A TBAN on Trump/Russia-related issues (narrowly construed to include only AP2 pages with "Trump" or "Russia" in the title, and for about a month) applied to Lambden and Marek equally seems reasonable. Contentious editing is a dis-service to the encyclopedia, and if they can't avoid that, something must be done. I feel a full AP2 ban would be too severe here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:09, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by My very best wishes

    I think this is just the latest episode when James J. Lambden persistently follows VM on various pages to get him banned, while VM is working very hard to improve the content everywhere, and specifically in the area of US politics. Also, I think this "consensus required" editing restriction is extremely unhelpful and should never be used. It does not really help to establish consensus, but prevents quick improvement of pages on recent controversial events. My very best wishes (talk) 18:28, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by SPECIFICO

    TTAAC and James Lambden have demonstrated on this AE thread what editors in American Politics see every day. Each of them appears incapable of discussing facts and policy without personalizing their remarks, disparaging other editors, and mounting irrelevant and dismissive aspersions. They both have a long history of stalking and harassment of other editors. In TTAAC's case, he has already received a TBAN per ARBAP2, he socked to evade the ban, and he squandered the good faith extended by Sandstein, who lifted his ban based on TTAAC's promise not to resume his personal disparagement and battleground rants. And that's just in calendar 2017.

    This AE complaint is over a trivial matter that's typical of the dozens that arise -- which may or may not entail technical violations -- that are never escalated to this enforcement page. Marek has consistently refused to take the bait from TTAAC and has tried to collaborate courteously with him Marek has repeatedly asked Lambden to stop his harassment.

    I recommend a TBAN for James B. Lambden for his ongoing stalking and harassment of Marek and others. I recommend that TTAAC's TBAN be reinstated due to his manifest failure to reform his disruptive battleground participation in American Politics articles, in effect violating the terms of his parole. Black Comedy: TTAAC's AN complaint on me within days of promising Sandstein he would not resume his battleground rants . It's disturbing that TTAAC appears to have stepped back and waited until another AN complaint about him was archived the day before he posting the current pointless AE complaint about Marek. . SPECIFICO talk 02:04, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Volunteer Marek

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • This complaint is confusingly presented; the diffs are not in chronological order, which makes it difficult to assess their legitimacy. Additionally, diffs #3 and #6 both link to the same edit, yet are presented as if they were two different edits and two different violations. I'm going to assume that this was an honest oversight rather than an attempt at deception, but it should be corrected by TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs).

      Looking at the article and dispute in question, there is a clear-cut 1RR violation by James J. Lambden (talk · contribs) (06:21 and 06:44, 8 Nov 2017). Given the black-and-white nature of the violation, and the aggravating factor that he accuses others of violating 1RR in the second edit summary, I would propose a block of the appropriate length for him.

      As far as the complaint against Marek, I'm less clear. I see one clear-cut revert by him (06:39), and several other edits which appear to add new information or wording. It's possible that there's a 1RR violation there, but I don't quite see it and the complaint is not well-constructed enough to clarify. Does anyone else see one?

      As for violations of the "consensus required" provision, it seems to me that there's a general reluctance to aggressively enforce this on all sides. Which makes sense; the provision seems like a good idea in theory, but easily game-able in practice (by reflexively reverting and then demanding "consensus", one tendentious editor could use this provision to basically hold a page hostage). I'm going to defer to other admins to interpret and, if appropriate, to enforce that remedy here. It's not immediately clear to me that the provision has been violated from the diffs provided in the complaint nor from my own review of recent editing on the page, but if others feel that there is a violation then they can certainly place the sanction that they think is appropriate. I would argue that if we (collectively) don't intend to enforce the restriction, then we should explicitly remove it to avoid confusion.

      In summary, I'd propose a block of James J. Lambden (talk · contribs) for a clear-cut 1RR violation (aggravated by hypocrisy in accusing others of a violation), and will defer to anyone else's interpretation of the "consensus needed" provision. Thoughts? MastCell  06:49, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

    • I agree the complaint is not put very clearly. Here's the history from this morning:
    • In these two consecutive edits at 05:34 and 05:36, VM added some fairly controversial material, sourced to Business Insider and a change to the lead.
    • In these four consecutive edits between 06:20 and 06:36, JJL reverted the change to the lead and significantly changed the other material added by VM, including removing everything sourced to Business Insider.
    • At 06:39, VM re-instated the changes to the lead.
    • At 06:44, JJL reverted the changes to the lead again.
    • In these three consecutive edits between 07:54 and 08:14, VM re-added a substantially reduced/toned-down version of the controversial material, this time sourced to USA Today and Newsweek.
    • I think it's pretty clear that JJL has violated 1RR here and some sort of sanction is appropriate. IMO topic bans are more appropriate than blocks in these situations - editors getting on with editing something else is helpful to everyone, so long as the disruption doesn't also carry over.
    • I think it's also pretty clear that VM has violated the consensus required provision. I argued against enforcing it last month because it's easy to be inadvertently tripped up by them and basically assumed good faith. I think a second violation a month later is rather stretching that good faith and some sort of sanction is appropriate here. It also seems to me that whether VM's first edit counts as a fairly serious BLP violation hinges entirely on your view of Business Insider as a reliable source. On a quick scout through RSN, I didn't find immediately obvious "never use this source" but I did find a lot of caution and scepticism and feel VM should know better than this.
    • In short, I think sanctions on both are appropriate and would favour topic bans over blocks. GoldenRing (talk) 09:59, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but I don't see how this edit of VM's is supposed to be "fairly controversial". Blocking Lambden after the fact is blocking after the fact--I think rather that considering the lengthy and tendentious career Lambden has had in that area they should be topic-banned, at least for three months. Drmies (talk) 13:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I haven't changed my mind since that discussion. I think it should be removed. Yes, I said that I liked User:BU Rob13's suggestion that we replace it with "Editors cannot restore edits which they have introduced within 24 hours if the edits have been reverted", but I don't think "consensus required" is fit for purpose and the uninvolved administrators at that discussion seemed to agree. I think it should be treated like a lame duck and put out of its misery (sorry, I think that's a mixed metaphor). Other than that I've got no comment on what should be the outcome here. Doug Weller talk 15:46, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I don't think that behind the back and forth and history of the pair here, that there's any immediate action that can be taken outside a healthy dose of trouts, but I think all editors in this topic need to keep in mind that WP:NOT#NEWS is policy, and we strive to avoid WP:RECENTISM - just because it is widely reported does not mean it has to be immediately added to WP. A lot of the conflict in the AmPol area would be cut back if editors were not on a race to insert the latest-breaking political scandal news before the information has had a chance to make its course through a news cycle, to at least get a sense of how "serious" it is, or at least to make sure we're using the best sources possible if this is contentious information. Eg, if VM had waited 24hr, after which other sources that are considered more reliable than Business Insider came about with corroborating stories, then we wouldn't be here - the content sourced to works like Newsweek seems reasonable then to include. Even if it is the case that the NYTimes brought allegations to the forefront, waiting a bit (24hr) to understand how it fit into a larger picture, potenitally initiating discussion on the talk page pre-addition, would be helpful to reduce conflicts here. --MASEM (t) 16:18, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I endorse the removal of the "consensus required" provision, which I'm beginning to think should be removed from all articles. As Coffee hasn't edited in some time, I don't feel we are stepping on any toes by doing this here and now, for this article anyway. I doubt it need replacing with anything, but will accept modification rather than flat removal as a second choice. I would opt out of opining on any other merits herein. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:16, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
    • The consensus required provision is to stay, as has been discussed by ArbCom. Just because I've not edited in a while, is not a logical argument for the removal of a working concept. Also, no Sandstein... all administrators should be able to handle these concerns. But, I do think it would be encouraged to talk to an admin familiar with the matter first (yes this would obviously include the imposing admin). Coffee (talk) 23:41, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I typically stay out of AE, but I will say this: consensus required makes sense and should not be removed: it already has a basis in policy (WP:ONUS) and having it as a sanction, like 1RR is only designed to be a bright line in making sure that policy is followed. I recently intentionally imposed the sanction on Roy Moore for this very reason, and I'm sad to see it brought up here that it should be removed from all pages. I have no thoughts on this particular case, but refusing to enforce a valid sanction based in well-established policy is a bad idea. Coffee's restriction was correctly placed, and if it has been violated, that should be taken into account here. While the sanction can be gamed, 1RR with multiple editors can also be very easily gamed without this restriction, and it is important to remember where this sanction is applied: typically to high profile and visible US politics pages, where there are going to be many editors watching. It helps to force talk page conversation and avoid edit wars, which is a net positive.TonyBallioni (talk) 02:04, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Thucydides411

    On hold pending the outcome of the discussion at AN/I. GoldenRing (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Thucydides411

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Thucydides411 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBAPDS :
    • Misplaced Pages editors are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other editors; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.
    • All Misplaced Pages articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Merely presenting a plurality of viewpoints, especially from polarized sources, does not fulfill the neutral point of view.
    • When there is a good-faith dispute, editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process and to carefully consider other editors' views, rather than simply edit-warring back-and-forth between competing versions.
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it


    1. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
    2. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
    1. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
    1. November 12, 2017 Blatant personal attack and personalizing disputes.
    2. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith: "This just looks like an attempt to hide the mainstream view of the JAR from readers. Given the discussion above about "purging" the article, the intent of this RfC is quite clear."
    3. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith
    4. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith
    5. October 11, 2017 Personalizing content disputes
    6. July 4, 2017 Refusal to accept consensus
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. February 18, 2017 Blocked for violation of discretionary sanctions restrictions
    2. May 7, 2017 Given a discretionary sanction by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Thucydides411 has persistently made assumptions of bad faith, personal attacks, edit warring, refusal to abide by consensus] and general tendentious editing at Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections for nearly a year as part of his campaign to inject his fringe POV, that election interference by Russia didn't happen, into the article. He has been warned several times at several venues to stop but he continues to exhibit a pattern of behavior that is disruptive and a drain on everyone's patience. These last personal attacks on Volunteer Marek are way over the line.

    @James J. Lambden: That's news to me. Please list the diffs corresponding to my examples above that show Thucydides411 being attacked. And no, let's not close this. We all know that ANI is useless for resolving these types of issues which is why there were two Arbcom cases for American politics, and why there are discretionary sanction which I am asking to be enforced.- MrX 00:39, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Thucydides411

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Thucydides411

    I'm not going to comment here further than to say this: I think this report is part of a campaign of intimidation and harassment. I really don't have the time to respond - getting down in the mud over the insane situation on American Politics articles isn't worth it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by slatersateven)

    There is an ongoing ANI launched by me. We should close this (or that) and only have one running.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

    Can we please close this, statements are being made here I feel I should respond to, but have no wish to be accused of forum shopping.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    As this is obviously not going to be closed I have asked for the ANI to be closed. I note that he has never informed anyone of DS, but was informed in the last 12 months.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    At ANI I asked for a topic ban after the user rejected the simple request by another edd to just step away for 48 hours. I fell that if the user is not given some kind of sanction they will in fact continue to be disruptive and provocative. As to the comments about him being provoked. In the last interaction the first "about a user statement" made by anyone was this , whilst not aimed at A user it is an attack on anyone who disagrees with him as being politically motivated. Maybe I am missing where he was provoked into making that statement, As far as I can see he was the one deliberately trying to provoke people.Slatersteven (talk) 14:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    Also not only was he not hated alone, but he attempted to move his comment out of the hat (whilst keeping others hated) .Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by James J. Lambden

    Thucydides411 has been the target of a harassment campaign. It follows the pattern of:

    1. Attack him
    2. Wait for in-kind response
    3. Option A: use his response as evidence of hostility
    4. Option B: remove or hat his response alone, to annoy

    Regardless, Slatersteven is right. One complaint is enough. Close this. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    @MrX: I did not mean to suggest every editor is a witting participant but the pattern is predictable and repeating. See the comments above this diff November 12, 2017 which you linked in your complaint and subsequent removals. I will leave it to Thucydides411 to present previous examples if he chooses to respond here. I believe WP:FORUMSHOP precludes two open complaints. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Seraphim System

    If this is enough for ARBCOM to get involved, there are at least three complaints I want to make - anyone else? Seraphim System 10:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Anythingyouwant

    I advise any further comments to be put at ANI, pursuant to this comment by an administrator. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by SPECIFICO

    I'm copying some of the evidence I presented at the ANI thread:

    Admins have sanctioned Thucydides411 twice already for violating DS on ARBAP2. first sanction and then the second sanction Whenever this is mentioned, he responds with a personal theory as to why one or both of these did not really happen, citing among other things his unsuccessful appeal. He's done that several times, and it demonstrates that the sanctions have not caused him to reconsider his behavior. Recent example: .

    He routinely mischaracterizes good faith content disagreements as POV-pushing by the majority of editors on the Politics articles who are collaborating to reflect mainstream description of facts and events. He accuses editors of following their personal opinions and engages with disparagement and denigration rather than discussion of content, sources, and policy. This behavior is not only at the Russian Interference article; it's on other related articles as well. For those who are not familiar with his conduct, here are some threads that demonstrate his personalized battleground style:

    ANI
    And meanwhile he’s been going after Marek on a long list of pages for a long time and has been politely asked over and over to stop.:

    What's particularly weird, to me, is why Thuc would think that these years-old irrelevant ad hominems against Marek would hold any sway over the current editors Thuc is presumably trying to win to his POV? It seems to me he is so invested in personalizing routine editing communications that he doesn't even realize that the overwhelming majority of editors thinks these ad hominems are pointless and offensive. SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Thucydides411

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

    Huldra

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Huldra

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Shrike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_3#Neutrality_and_sources :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 14 November NPOV violations Usage of terms like "segregation wall" and using ARIJ site without clearly attributing who make the claim about land ownership.
    2. 14 November 2017 NPOV violations Usage of terms like "segregation wall" and using ARIJ site without clearly attributing who make the claim about land ownership.
    3. 12 November 2017 Making claim by ARIJ in wikipedia voice
    4. 12 November 2017 NPOV violation
    5. 10 Novemeber 2017 Usage of POV term "segregation wall"
    6. 2 November 2017 Usage of POV term "segegration wall"
    7. 13 October 2017 Falsifying Ben-Gurion quote


    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 26 September 2017 .


    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    • Usage of term "segregation wall" in Misplaced Pages voice is clearly POV violation we have article named Israeli West Bank barrier this name was decided after many discussions as the most WP:NPOV using the term segregation with term wall is clearly to promote one sided agenda.Just for reference the BBC and UN use the term barrier
    • ARIJ source is Palestinian think tank that make claims about land confiscated by Israel.Those are claims made by Palestinians and should be attributed as such if be used at all.In latest RSN it was noted by at least one uninvolved editor that the source is not reliable other editors opined to the very least it should be used with attribution.Usage of such POV source in Misplaced Pages voice without any attribution is clearly a POV violation per WP:BIASED.
    • Diff 3 : While Haaretz is WP:RS and article is negative on Israel but we not allowed to selectively quote a source to suit our agenda.To fulfill the WP:NPOV requirements the civil administration reaction from the source should be quoted to the claims made.
    • Diff 5:Except usage of "segregation wall" she also deleted negative information about Palestinians like "security concerns" and "uprising in 2000"
    • Diff 7 I understand that last diff maybe a little stale but it needed to show POV pattern of this user the quote "these villages are in our pocket We can act against them also after the truce. This will be a police action... They are not regarded as enemy forces as their area is ours and they are not inhabitants of the state... these villages do not represent a military danger.".While the original quote missed the word "not"(mine emphasis) thus changing the meaning of the quote and putting Ben-Gurion in negative light.I think such clear disregard of source is not acceptable in Misplaced Pages.Many sources that she quote are without online access we cannot trust such user to edit such sensitive area

    @User:GoldenRing The user is editing from 2005 and clearly editing from one sided agenda while we all have our POV per WP:YESPOV.I think as old time editor she clearly understand that usage of term "segregation wall" have negative connotations toward Israel and its not neutral term Such not neutral language to promote one sided POV is not acceptable in my opinion. Our article about the barrier says while Palestinians call it a racial segregation or apartheid wall..Would be OK to use if I use "anti-terrorist fence" in Misplaced Pages voice?--Shrike (talk) 10:30, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    • @GoldenRing: I still think we should expect differently from user with 12 years of experience in the area contrary to new user or that edit rarely in the area but I understand what you saying and in future I will engage in conversation first--Shrike (talk) 15:00, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    @User:Zero0000 No one ask to use Israeli name i.e "Anti-terrorist fence" but usining WP:NPOV name "barrier" like BBC and UN use is a reasonable request from a user with 12 years of experience in the area--Shrike (talk) 13:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    References
    1. Morris, 2004, p. 439
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Huldra

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Huldra

    Statement by Kingsindian

    The request is weird. What is the supposed policy which is being violated? Also, for some reason, there wasn't any talk page discussion about issues of content and phrasing, prior to bringing this to WP:AE. There are several issues here, and I'll deal with them in order:

    • The wall in the West Bank has many names, and some variant of "separation fence" is used by many different authors. For instance, here is Barak Ravid in Haaretz: After Terror Attacks, Israel to Complete Separation Barrier Construction Around Jerusalem, Southern West Bank. See Hafrada for many other sources. Indeed, there exists a redirect Segregation Wall. One of the expressly stated purposes of the wall is to separate (both land and people), so it's weird to say that the term shouldn't be used. If the term is considered non-neutral, one can discuss on the talk page and get a consensus on the default term which is to be used.

      As an aside, if someone consistently uses Temple Mount instead of Haram Al-Sharif, are we going to haul them up for NPOV violation as well?

    • The use of ARIJ as a source: I don't see any consensus in the RSN discussion, which was archived after a few days. There aren't very many detailed sources on West Bank villages; one commenter who opined in the RSN discussion said that other sources could be used, but failed to provide any alternative ones. This matter should be decided by discussion on the talk page, and if necessary, by an RfC. In the meantime, it would perhaps be good to attribute the claims.
    • That a quote from Haaretz should be balanced by including Israeli administration response, is a strange requirement, as well as an isolated demand for rigor. If we are going to make a practice of banning people who quote one source and not add balancing opinions, we might as well go ahead and ban everyone from this area. I'll make a deal with anyone here: pick any person in this area, and I'll find you at least five instances of them selectively quoting sources.
    • The last point is about the stale diff about the Ben-Gurion quote. Shrike has not said why this should be regarded as falsification and not a simple error of transcription. What happened to WP:AGF? But good faith in this area is very scarce, so let's investigate whether the claim makes sense. The part of the sentence just before the allegedly falsified part is They are not regarded as enemy forces as their area is ours , which implies that "they are inhabitants of the state", and not that "they are not inhabitants of the state". In addition, the fragment preceding this sentence talks about "police action", a term which is used for actions which the government deems to be internal to the state (foreign actions are called "military action"). Any way we read the passage, the alleged fabrication makes no sense. Therefore, the most likely explanation is an error in transcription, not deliberate fabrication. It is good that Shrike checked and corrected the error, but their conclusion of malfeasance is not tenable. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:47, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Zero0000

    Huldra can make transcription errors like everyone else, but in more than a decade of close observation I haven't once seen her fail to correct such an error immediately when it was pointed out to her. Deliberately doctoring it would be 100% out of character. As for "segregation wall", why should the Israeli name have priority over the Palestinian name, especially in an article on a Palestinian town? (Incidentally, for quite a few years "separation barrier" was the official Israeli name, which is essentially the same.) Finally, I've said elsewhere that I think ARIJ should be attributed, not because it is inherently unreliable but because it is good practice in this corner of Misplaced Pages to attribute practically everything that has a political component (including most pronouncements of the Palestinian or Israeli governments). But this opinion cannot be said to have general consensus yet. Zero 12:30, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Nishidani

    Applied Research Institute–Jerusalem is an internationally recognized research institute. The fact that it is 'Palestinian' should not raise eyebrows of concern. It is funded by the European Union; it is used all over google books in scholarly works without attribution (Google 'Arij +Jerusalem 'and you get 5,500 results there), and just broadly googling yields 143,000 hits. It is one of the primary sources used on most Israeli settlement articles which, when not citing ARIJ or the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics for real history or data, use such egregiously eyesore non-RS sources as Keneged Kol HaSikuim, Harmodia, Arutz Sheva,israeltown.com. Rami Levy Hashikma Marketing, The Temple Institute,torahalive.com Nefesh B'Nefesh, etc.etc.etc., without a murmur of worry or concern by pertinacious NPOV/RS monitors of the sister Palestinian articles. If your concern is NPOV, Shrike, there's a lot of work out there on settlements begging to be done, along the lines of what Huldra does with Palestinian villages with extraordinary patience and meticulous erudition. Almost none have datum-by-datum RS sourcing, they are free compositions, and totally unencyclopedic.

    That said, it is true that where Arij uses its preferred term, segregation barrier/wall, it should be used, if at all, with attribution. There are no neutral terms to describe the security/separation/apartheid -barrier/wall/fence as one can see from specific studies like that of Richard Rogers, Anat Ben-David,Coming to terms: a conflict analysis of the usage, in official and unofficial sources, of ‘security fence’, ‘apartheid wall’, and other terms for the structure between Israel and the Palestinian territories, Media, War & Conflict vol. 3, No.2, 2010 pp- 1–28. You make far too many frivolous complaints against editors with an outstanding record here Shrike.Nishidani (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Huldra

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I tend to agree with Kingsindian's analysis here. I think the Ben Gurion quote issue is better explained by error than malice. Perhaps the use of "segregation barrier" is not ideal if there is a more neutral term that could be used, but I'd expect to see some attempt to discuss this before requesting sanctions (if someone can point me to such a discussion then go ahead; I spot-checked a couple of user and article talk pages where you might expect it to happen and didn't find anything). My biggest problem is with the use of ARIJ as a reliable source; Huldra started the discussion at RSN regarding it and, while the result was not blazingly clear either way, that should have been a signal to be cautious in its use. If you can only find a single, not-very-reliable source for something that proves controversial, then it's probably an indication that that material is heading into UNDUE territory. I'm still not in favour of sanctions here, but perhaps a warning to tread carefully in the use of sources. GoldenRing (talk) 10:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
      • @Shrike: Yes, I think the use of a (more) neutral term would be a reasonable request. But as far as I can see, you didn't make that request, you brought it straight here. This is not a situation where a bright line has been crossed; in the matter of choosing one term over another for better neutrality, I don't think it's unreasonable of me to ask you to have raised the matter with the editor first. I asked above for pointers to any such discussion and, since you've not provided any, I assume I was right the first time and they haven't happened. GoldenRing (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I agree. All diffs but the last are mainly content disputes, and the last diff is stale. Whether a source is reliable or partisan is a content issue, except perhaps in extreme cases. Repeatedly using an apparently POV term for the wall/barrier/thing that Israel built, instead of the presumably consensual article title, is also potentially a conduct issue, but as GoldenRing says this should have been a matter of discussion before bringing it to AE. I would take no action.  Sandstein  17:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Volunteer Marek

    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) –  Volunteer Marek  16:35, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
    Sanction being appealed
    "You are banned from interacting with (...) TheTimesAreAChanging for three months"
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator

    Statement by Volunteer Marek

    As of right now, I'm just going to appeal this one provision - the interaction ban with TTAAC. There's no reason for it. It's dumb. There was no consensus for it, hell, it wasn't even MENTIONED in the relevant AE report . Not a single admin, including GoldenRing, brought it up. In short, where the hey did this one come from?

    The only connection in that report between TTAAC and myself is that he is the one who filed the report. So it looks like the only reason GoldenRing imposed this sanction is that - that a user brought an AE report against another user. So apparently now, bringing a report to AE automatically (and I mean "automatically" because there's no other reason given for this iban) results in an iban between the two users involved. Ummm.... what??? How does that make sense? This looks like a case of a trigger happy admin who didn't bother reading the diffs, didn't bother reading the comments by his fellow administrators, didn't bother actually familiarizing themselves with the topic area and the users involved at anything more than a superficial level, just decided to slap some random sanctions on folks because s/he could.

    More to the point, my interactions with TheTimesAreAChanging have been nothing but cordial. And I mean that. I even mentioned that in my response in the AE report. I even went out of my freakin' way to assume good faith when he violated 1RR (which should be a lesson to everyone who assumes good faith it seems - you do that at your own peril). At least since his topic ban expired, he's never complained about any problems with me, never accused me of incivility or personal attacks and vice-versa. I mean, come on GoldenRing, can you provide at least ONE diff which would support your i-ban? As the kids say, diffs please.

    I do want to note that this is the second instance that GoldenRing has fumbled the ball in their attempts at placing weird sanctions on me. In Sept 2017 they placed a topic ban on me from immigration related articles which was quickly removed by another admin (User:Fram) which then was reinstated cuz of technicalities, which he then had to rescind due to criticism from other administrators (User:Floquenbeam, User:Drmies, User:Boing! said Zebedee, User:Black Kite, User:Neutrality, User:Chris Howard ... I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, there was a ton of admins disagreeing with GoldenRing). It's sort of hard to avoid the impression that this sanction is a bit of payback for that fiasco. Even if not however, at least the iban with TTAAC provision is completely absurd and unjustified.

    I have no problem with the IBAN being removed bilaterally (i.e. TTAC shouldn't be banned from interacting with me either). Like I said, there's been absolutely no interactions either way which would warrant this ban. And since I-BANs are (well known) minefields and very easy to violate accidentally, this should be removed for both of us.

    (Note: I have no idea if the interaction ban prohibits me notifying TTAC of this appeal so I'm just gonna ping'em here @TheTimesAreAChanging: ping!. Volunteer Marek  16:39, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    @GoldenRing - "VM's protestations ring a little hollow when the complaint in question accused him of belittling and assuming bad faith of the complainant" - TTAC's claim that I was "belittling and assuming bad faith" towards him was based on this comment of mine. Let me quote it in full:

    "Even though nobody will gimme credit, I *do* actually try to assume good faith to the extent that is possible. But yeah, here on Misplaced Pages, very often it very quickly becomes impossible. Visitors, shmizitorz."

    Where exactly does this comment "belittle" TTAC? Where does this comment assume bad faith? For that matter where does this comment even mention TTAC"????? It says

    • That *I* assume good faith
    • That it can be hard sometimes
    • That people ("visitors") have been vandalizing my talk page.

    If you based the Iban on that comment then you either a) didn't read the freakin' comment, b) ... I have no idea. You seem to have taken TTAC's claim at face value, either because you were too lazy to actually fact check it or because you just wanted to impose a sanction. Either way. Not good. Volunteer Marek  17:43, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    @Spike WIlbury - I know how it works. And I'm appealing it. Nobody brought up a topic ban with TTAC (and if it wasn't even mentioned, it's sort of hard to even BEGIN talking about consensus). There is no basis for it. It came out of nowhere. If I can't bring that up, what exactly am I suppose to base my appeal on? Grovelling and whining?  Volunteer Marek  17:47, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by GoldenRing

    I think the IBAN is necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project and this is the standard required under WP:AC/DS. VM's protestations ring a little hollow when the complaint in question accused him of belittling and assuming bad faith of the complainant, and his appeal here indicates he feels victimised by TTAAC ("which should be a lesson to everyone who assumes good faith it seems - you do that at your own peril").

    For the rest, the assumptions of bad faith and canvassing are so transparent that I don't think any more needs to be said.

    I don't regard informing TTAAC as a breach of the IBAN; it comes under the provision for "addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum" of WP:BANEX. GoldenRing (talk) 17:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    @Sandstein and MastCell: The IBAN between TTAAC and VM is mainly about the interaction that VM links above. VM pretends above that it didn't involve TTAAC at all yet the title of that section is a link to a diff of VM responding to TTAAC. As for his other questions (Where exactly does this comment "belittle" TTAAC and so on) - it wasn't me that characterised the comment that way, it was TTAAC. That VM objects to TTAAC's characterisation of his comments so vehemently is evidence in favour of the IBAN, not against it.
    Moreover, the point of these sanctions is to reduce disruption in the AP2 topic. VM appears to have taken the IBAN rather personally when it wasn't entirely intended as such; it was meant to separate editors who clearly don't get along, not punish VM for negative interactions with TTAAC. It is, in fact, preventative, not punitive. If I believed in one-way IBANs I would have seriously considered making the IBAN one-way; I don't, so I didn't (I'm still not sure what the result of such consideration would have been).
    While I understand some of MastCell's reasoning in his second paragraph, it appears to be an argument against ever imposing IBANs under DS, since in virtually every case they involve editors who edit in the same topic area. Yet IBANs are specifically authorised by WP:AC/DS. These are not the only editors active in this area and if something needs comment or removal, other editors can do it. GoldenRing (talk) 18:28, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor SPECIFICO)

    I was surprised to see Marek banned from interaction with TheTimesAreAChanging. The nasty behavior was entirely one way, from TTAAC. I posted two diffs in the AE thread to illustrate Marek's good faith water-off-a-duck's-back responses to TTAAC:

    Marek has consistently refused to take the bait from TTAAC and has tried to collaborate courteously with him.

    Regardless of whether he might have expressed it correctly, I also feel that Marek has a point that Golden Ring was not the best fit to close this complaint. Yes, GR may have been allowed to close it. I don't know what the formal standard is. But GR and Marek have had a recent problem interaction, and GR might be viewed as "involved" with respect to Marek. I'm not talking about a formal definition of involved, just that it would have looked better to the community if one of the other Admins had closed this. Since we have many Admins who volunteer their efforts at AE, it was not necessary to risk the appearance of any question as to the close. SPECIFICO talk 17:54, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor 2)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Volunteer Marek

    Result of the appeal by Volunteer Marek

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • @Volunteer Marek: The nature of this board allows admins to apply sanctions unilaterally. The closing admin isn't required to get consensus for individual sanctions. I find it hard to believe you don't already know this considering your number of appearances in this venue, but since you're raising it as a complaint, there you go. Additionally, I wouldn't even begin considering your appeal until you remove or hat the various comments on Golden Ring as an admin including unfounded insinuations about their motives. Your appeal should simply state why you shouldn't be banned from interacting with TTAAC --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I think that Volunteer Marek's request that GoldenRing indicate which specific edits by Volunteer Marek are the basis of the ban under appeal is reasonable. I do not see such diffs, or a rationale for this interaction ban specifically, in GoldenRing's closure of the AE thread above. @GoldenRing: could you please provide diffs of the edits by Volunteer Marek that you think merit this ban?  Sandstein  18:04, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I have a couple of concerns about the interaction ban. First, despite significant administrative input on the thread in question, no one so much as suggested (much less advocated for) an interaction ban. Spike is entirely correct that an admin can impose sanctions unilaterally, so GoldenRing does have the technical authority to place the interaction ban, but it's a question of should, not can. In general, when closing an AE report where there's been significant administrative discussion, the close should attempt to reflect that discussion. A range of solutions were proposed in the initial thread, and given the lack of administrative consensus, it would be justifiable to apply any combination of them. But I don't think it shows great judgement to tack on a new—and very broad—sanction which never even came up in administrative discussion.

      My larger concern is that an interaction ban in this setting is a) unworkable, b) counterproductive, and c) likely to create much more drama than it prevents. Marek, TTAAC, and Lambden all edit in the same topic area. How are they supposed to avoid interacting with each other? The terms of an IBAN (as linked by GoldenRing) prohibit an editor from replying to each others' comments. How is that going to work when both editors are working on the same page? They need to be able to respond to each other in order to work through any content disputes. If any or all of them can't handle that sort of discussion productively, then they should be topic-banned. But I don't think an IBAN in this situation has been thought through at all. I see it creating a lot of AE reports for violations: let's say Marek makes an edit and Lambden disagrees, but can't revert it, mention it, or even mention Marek? Doesn't this give a massive first-mover advantage to whomever jumps in fastest, and effectively exclude the others from the pages in question? I'd advocate lifting the interaction ban on all sides. MastCell  18:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)