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Fut.Perf. is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.

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Misplaced Pages:WikiProject History of Greece

I saw you're interested in the project! Well, it's now open and it is waiting for volunteers! In (Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject History of Greece) you'll see what I've done and what is left to be done according to my opinion. I tried to set a basic plan of work, but I was very tired to go into details. Right now I feel exhausted! Please, check the page and the talk page, and I think you'll find areas for contribution and creativity. Make your suggestions and additions, express your thoughts, your critics and anything else you feel appropriate. I believe that through co-operation we'll find our way. I think the most important thing is to keep the project alive and imrove its quality and its importance. If possible, spread the news and recruit other users. I'll come back, when I'll feel less tired! Cheers!--Yannismarou 17:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What is commonly accepted about the ancient Macedonians

Please have a look at Ulrich Wilcken's Alexander der Große or Griechische Geschichte im Rahmen der Altertumsgeschichte, and Egon Friedell's Kulturgeschichte Griechenlands, and maybe you'll see where I'm coming from when I say "commonly accepted". They're all German sources and it will be easy for them to find them. Skip to the section of ancient Macedonia. The last one is worth a read in any case. I'm not making up my edits. Miskin 21:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article itself only a few sentences further down (or was it further up?) contains well documented views that contradict that hypothesis, which makes it exactly not "commonly accepted". And as long as the dissenting views are held by people as preeminent in the field as Borza, like it or not, there is no reason to play them down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wilcken and Friedell are by far more preeminent by Borza, the only setback is that they're not as recent. O. Masson, Lane Fox and Hammond on the other hand, are alive and kicking, and much more mainstream than Borza. It's probably some 1-5 support against Borza's thesis, hence the "majority". My claim is also verified by the Britannica article (which I can cite for you). Miskin 11:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I still can't see how that would support "commonly", even if your assessment of the relative positions of these people in their field is correct (which I cannot judge right now). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Check talk:Eugene Borza (plagiarized bio). He's been categorized as a category:Romanian-Americans. If that is true (is it?) can he be considered 'third party' or 'non-partisan'? His name flashes everywhere in the worst blogs I've ever seen for once... •NikoSilver• 12:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what his ethnic background or his political bias would be. He's entitled to have it, just like anybody else. Why would only a "third-party" scholar count here? He is evidently a respected and prolific author in the field; if the Macedonian nationalist websites have been taking him hostage that's not his fault. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me, I didn't mean to imply he is biased. I just asked if you know. I am sure we can't list all those Greek (Greek-American or whatever) prominent scholars that appear in Google scholar as 'non-partisan', so why can we treat a Romanian (if he is) differently? He still can be the NPOVest person in the world. Anyway, about the blog thing, you're right. But how do we know for a fact that he is prominent? I did my search and haven't found anything. Maybe you could direct me somewhere, since you're in the field... •NikoSilver• 13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to rewrite this. Miskin 12:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks FP! I am sure you'll make it as neutral as possible...NikoSilver 20:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ahem, sorry, my refactoring was misleading. The above promise to "rewrite this" was actually Miskin's, not mine. And I must disappoint you, I really don't feel like seriously entering the Macedonian topics. Don't think I'll find the time and energy any time soon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Future Perfect at Sunrise. having seen the discussion, thought to drop some lines as well. i think it is a blatant POV-pushing to dispute the mainstream opinion about the Ancient Macedonians. a minority of scholars indeed dispute them having been Greek. however, the majority should prevail, and the thoughts of the minority should be presented in a paragraph in that article, and not in everything linked to the ancient Macedonians (e.g. Ancient Macedonian language, which is listed as a Greek dialect, as related to Greek or as unrelated at all). there are minority opinions in almost every wikipedian article (e.g. Armenian Genocide, Graeco-Armenian language, September 11 attacks, etc etc-i can think of many many more articles...). but in no other case the opinion of a minority has been promoted that much as in the case of the Ancient Macedonians! just because some users do not want to see the ancient Macedonians as Greek, it does not mean that all the related articles should be in a mess... In no case am i talking about a censorship, of course. i am saying that every opinion should take the place it diserves, based on the evidence, references and appeal it has. And the most widely accepted theory is that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. Regards Hectorian 20:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, from all I can see from those portions of the literature I've had access to until now (mind you, that's mostly the linguistic angle, not the historical one), I'm not convinced of your assessment that the non-Greek view is a clear minority, let alone such an insignificant one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I know you don't have the energy, but your position seems certain. Care to point out which other neutral portions of literature maintain this opinion (even by a linguistic angle)? I mean, if it's just Borza, then he clearly is the minority, both in prominence and in ...population. •NikoSilver• 21:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

My position certain? Well, let's say, it's certainly agnostic on the issue. As for the linguistic literature: The article quotes Antoine Meillet as a proponent of a non-Greek view. That alone is an absolute showstopper. Look him up, a view endorsed by that guy can almost by definition never be non-mainstream. More or less every linguistic reference work I've ever seen has retained an agnostic or skeptical view of XMK-Greek unity. Horrocks (1997), my favourite up-to-date history of Greek, has not a word endorsing XMK-Greek unity. I must admit I don't clearly remember the position taken by Brixhe/Panayiotou (1994) - I read it years ago. The most advanced treatment I've recently come across is the article by Garrett (1999) that I quoted in the XMK article. He basically declares the question moot. Good read, but very technical. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

From the respective article: the 5th century lexicon of Hesychius of Alexandria, amounting to about 700 words and proper names. Most of these are confidently identifiable as Greek, but some of them are not easily reconciled with standard Greek phonology. Many more info is there as well. the theory of Anc.Mac. not been a greek dialect is a minority opinion, not to mention a very recent one (just a century old theory). If u have studied linguistics that much, u will have seen that many of the differences between Macedonian and Attic are identical with the diffs between Aeolian and Attic... However, noone has ever dared to say that the Aeolians were not Greek (i am afraid that this with also happen some day...). in addition, minority opinions also exist (surprisingly originating from the same country) suggesting that the Greeks are sub-saharans and that the Bulgarians are not Slavs, but Mongols... Letting the articles about the Ancient Macedonians being so confusing (i doubt if in the end, the reader will understand which is the mainstream opinion and which is not), will gradually lead in making Misplaced Pages less informative, in the name of NPOV (apparently, this is not what NPOV means). Presenting a minority opinion is encyclopedic, but giving it the same validity with the majority is not. --Hectorian 22:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not the place and time here to discuss whether you or I find this or that piece of evidence convincing. It's just about our perceptions what is mainstream in scholarship, and I can only repeat, my perception of that is very different from yours. And I'm not talking about cheap nationalist websites. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that neither u nor me are talking about cheap nationalist websites. we are just making a discussion. as i see in that article, 8 scholars claim it to be Greek (A.Fick, O.Hoffmann, Kretschmer, E. Schwyzer, M. Sakellariou, N.G.L. Hammond, O. Masson, Ahrens, F. H. L.) and 4 consider it to be non Greek (K. O. Müller, G. Bonfante, I. I. Russu, A. Meillet - without this meaning that these 4 agree with each other...), without including ancient and/or medieval sources, but only modern ones! In this form, the majority of the article's sources justify my point. if u, or anyone else have valid sources to favour the other position, it would be interesting those to be added. but in the current state, the article seems to contrantict itself, that's why i am thinking of tagging it. --Hectorian 22:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, scholarly consensus is not a majority vote, let alone a majority vote between just those authors who happen to have been quoted here. Unless someone comes up with massive amounts of additiona material, the names quoted clearly offer only one reasonable result: in Misplaced Pages jargon, no consensus. Why the hell not just leave it at that? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

There would be many reasons for me not leaving it just like that... from the fact that i am a Greek living in Thessaloniki, to the fact that it is unencyclopedic and 'rude' for the readers forcing them believe that majority=minority and that a minority opinion should be mentioned as a fact (cause, yes, my friend, a minority opinion has led this article to be in fact 'disputed'). That's why, i think that two templates (Template:Contradict and Template:Confusing) are the suitable for that. Hectorian 22:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What the? Sorry, but this makes me almost angry. What has the fact that you are a Greek living in Thessaloniki to do with ancient linguistics? And how on earth does the article present a "minority opinion" as "fact"? First, you haven't proven it's a minority opinion in the first place, and second it's not presenting it as fact but simply as one serious opinion among others. Which is absolutely appropriate. I very strongly object to your two templates, there's nothing either self-contradictory nor confusing about taking the opinions of some of the greatest linguists of the 20th century seriously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I meant to say that i study linguistics in Thessaloniki, and the fact that i am Greek makes it easier to me to find the similarities between the ancient Greek dialects. A minority opinion has led this article to present 'dispute of classification' as a fact. i think i have proven it's a minority opinion from the references in that article (note again: only modern references). I am not saying that it is not a serious opinion, nor that these linguists are not important. i am just saying that they must have a specific section where their theories will be fully explained, without making their presence in the lead as valid as the opinions of the modern-day majority (and apparently the opinions that have been all-times majority). --Hectorian 23:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Chill! :-) Both of you! Hey, FP, I'm from Paxi, does this count? :-) Back to business: I thought there was a third language hypothesis: that it was a sister (not daughter) language of Greek, from Proto-Greek. So we have 12 refs? What's the tally of sister/daughter/alien? •NikoSilver• 23:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not have any problem with Future Perfect at Sunrise and i am sorry if i made him 'almost angry':). it is a just difference of opinion. I believe that in the current state, the general meaning of the article is: 'it is commonly accepted that noone is sure about the classification of the ancient Macedonian language', despite of the majority of sources and references. certainly, this is not what the majority of scholars have and still think... Regards to both --Hectorian 23:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it helps, FP had found a decent solution for the infobox, and someone just had to go ahead and change it... •NikoSilver• 23:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that Borza was a Romanian-American, but I could always smell a bias. Someone who concentrates so much on an ethnic debate cannot be coming from a neutral background. A Romanian-American cannot be considered less non-partisan than a Greek-American (see Macedo-Romanians or Phanariotes to get the picture). In any case, his work has not been criticised as biased so we don't have the right to treat it as such. However we don't have the right to give him more credit than other scholars either. Lane Fox, Hammond, Masson (a preeminent linguist) and many from the German school are definitely the mainstream scholars on the topic. There have been hundreds of other theories on the origin of XMK but none of them have gained substantial support (if any). I'm not asking to ignore them, I'm only asking to give priority to the more popular ones (which is definitely not Borza's). The greater part of the current article was compiled by Alexander_007 (coincidence: another Romanian-American) who used Borza as his principal source, along with a good deal of OR to fill the gaps. Make your own conclusions. Miskin 12:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Borza was a historian, not a linguist. I'm talking here of the debate about the linguistic classification of XMK, not of the ethnic/cultural character of the Macedonians. Two different kettles of fish. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem! i also lost my temper and that's why some of my comments had been somehow 'poisonous'... Sorry... But in anycase, thanks to yours and the work of the rest of us, this article is better now. That is quite an achievement, no?:). Ciao Hectorian 05:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Articles on Greek language and Greek dialects

Your initiative to rename Category:Hellenic languages and dialects and generally to make categorization for articles on Greek language and Greek dialects more systematic and not sircular is highly useful. Another possible renaming would be that of Category:Hellenic scripts to Category:Greek scripts. Also, there is an incosistency concerning the heading and the content of articles on Greek dialects. This incosistency, of course, is a matter not only of Misplaced Pages but of their linguistic analysis too. I firmly believe that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. But Greek dialects are generally known as dialects and not languages. This has nothing to do with purely linguistic criteria, mutual intelligibility or whatever. The sole reason is that they lack an army and a navy. But that's how there are generally refered to. What is more, there isn't consistency in Misplaced Pages between heading and content. So, Pontic language (heading) is (first line of the article) "a Greek dialect ". On the other hand, Cypriot Greek mentions nothing at its heading for its status. In my opinion, Pontic, for example, or Tsakonian would, on linguistic grounds, easily qualify for a language status. But, whatever our choice, we have to be consistent. This problem is also mirrored in the greek wikipedia, where it is also unresolved. Maybe we can do something about it. --Michkalas 13:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Please don't use the word "Hellenic" - I hate that pretentious word. Use the word "Greek". --Telex 14:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with both of you. Let's use article titles that steer clear of the silly language-dialect issue, which is really a non-issue in the case of Greek. For the purpose of Misplaced Pages article naming and categorisation, let's just have Greek language as a single-language unit, with several subarticles for its different standard forms (Classical, Koine, Modern etc.), and all the rest treated on a par, as dialects. Leave whatever discussion of seperate language status might be necessary (Pontic, Tsakonian etc) to the article text. I'm currently quite busy working on the main series of articles for Modern and Classical Greek, which need restructuring. We can tackle the minor varieties articles later. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Talk:Greek language. I believe Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Languages/Template should be followed.--Michkalas 18:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series (2)

Let me first of all say and stress as much as possible that you are doing very serious work and you are really spending a lot of time to reoraganize Greek language article series. Greek language articles prove to be a hard issue. I had the chance -because I contribute mainly to Greek Misplaced Pages- to read the archive in Talk:Greek language and see the "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" attitude of most Greeks. There was also someone insisting that there is a dative case in Modern Greek! There was a determination too to include as many "Greek language is the first that..." as possible and then fill the "that-clause" part with whatever convenient.

Now, as to the detailed proposal you make. My feeling is that the content of "Greek language" article you propose can be fully merged to "Modern Greek language". "Modern Greek language" can and should be a lenghty article. The "Greek language" article you propose is, in fact, minus the language infobox, a sketch of "History of Greek language", which (the sketch) will fit nicely in the "MG lg" article. If we try to write the "history" section or other parts of the "MG language" article as you propose it, we will see that there we need the same kind and amount of information intended for the "Greek language" article. What is more, the language infobox is designed for the modern, living languages. This comes to the conclusion that "Greek lg" and "MG lg" should be one article and "History of Greek language" another one with a more detailed account of the language, the alphabet and the demographics of it's speakers. Because of the importance of the History part in the Greek language we can modify the template proposal by putting the "History of G lg" section after the "classification" and "geographic distribution" part, instead of putting it at the end (this is also the way things are arranged at Portuguese language, a featured article). I don't know, do you believe that "Greek language" article can have significantly more or different information than a comprenhensive "MG language" article?

Finally, I also believe we need both a Category:Varieties of Ancient Greek and Category:Varieties of Modern Greek. The "History of Greek language" infobox is also straightforward without the hide/show option.

BTW, the other users who have expressed their opinion back in June don't seem to follow this conversation so far. Maybe we have to ask them to do so.--Michkalas 10:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would definitely be nice if we could get input from the others again (and I'm saying this not only because they were supporting "my" position :-) ) - Right now it looks like almost evenly divided, with you, Peter Isotalo and Adreas on the one side versus dab, Miskin, Macrakis and me on the other. Perhaps we need to make a handy comparison of the two models so that outsiders understand the issues better. It would also help to see what, according to your model, needs actual changing in comparison to now. Basically, your suggestion means to leave the scope of Greek language more or less as is. That leaves us with the following issues: What to do with the current Modern Greek article - merge completely into Greek language? Or merge only a summary part of it into Greek language and expand the rest into a new (Modern) Greek dialects article? It currently has the varieties-and-sociolinguistic things about Modern Greek, but not the structural sketch things. Apart from that, I guess we'd only need to rename some of the subarticles to make the naming consistent - in particular, we should move the current Greek dialects to Ancient Greek dialects to make place for a new one.

I'm still not happy that on "your" model, we'll never have separate, easily disambiguated link targets for "Greek as a whole", "Greek, specifically ancient" and "Greek, specifically modern". Let's say, as a silly example, that in an article on Polygamy I wanted to write: "the term polygamy comes from the Greek word γαμώ 'to marry'". Now, that link leads the reader to an article that is essentially about a language where γαμώ means something rather different. ;-) Or even worse (though even less seriously): Imagine I wanted to write the following: "The term polygamy comes from the Greek word "γαμώ", which means 'to marry' in Ancient Greek but 'to f..k' in Modern Greek." Ρε γ... το, οn your proposal, the first and the third link would necessarily go to the same article, which would be confusing to readers. We have these kinds of confusion now in many instances, I think.

As for the categories, I think that should be uncontroversial, we can just go ahead and do it if you feel it's a good idea.

The show/hide buttons in the navigation box were just an experiment of mine, I liked them because they made the thingie smaller. We have so many infoboxes in these articles already. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Just to give a less silly example of the problem outlined above: Hypothetical text from an article about Cyrillic: "The Cyrillic letter Θ (Fita, ) occurs in words borrowed from Greek containing the letter Θ, which was pronounced in Ancient Greek but in Modern Greek." - Again, we really need three different link targets here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to make clear what exactly I mean. All the content, in my opinion, of Modern Greek can be merged with Greek language. The "Evolution from Ancient to Modern Greek" section can be summarized for the history section of the "Greek language" and/or be added as it is in "History of Gr language". An article such as Modern Greek dialects is still possible and should be created only if it is to contain significantly more information than the section in MG article. Greek dialects, I agree,clar should become Ancient Greek Dialects with a disambiguation page for "Greek dialects". (BTW, the confusion you mention with "γαμώ" and Θ is possible, more or less, eitherway)--Michkalas 11:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series (3)

Concerning the Greek language, I believe in "if you want something done, do it yourself". This consensus has been going on for some months and the majority is clearly in favour of the reformation, so there's no point to await any longer. If you agree with it as well then help me balance the two articles and consider the matter closed. Miskin 12:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I can take full responsibility for it, if someone is fanatically against it, then let him just revert back. Miskin 12:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You might want to look at a few (very rough) drafts with some restructuring ideas that I put up here:

• User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Greek language
• User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek
• User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek phonology
• User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/History of the Greek language (Navigation infobox)
• User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Varieties of Modern Greek should follow shortly.

Also see the discussion on User talk:Michkalas and further down here on this page. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that's not very different from the current condition. It only separates the Greek language historical periods into sections, and suggests a new article on Modern Greek phonology. IMHO, varieties of modern Greek should be kept in Modern Greek and there should be a separate article on Demotic Greek (standard Greek). At the moment I'm not sure what to do with all the links and references in the Greek language article. Miskin 13:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, the suggestion about "Demotic Greek" makes things even more complicated. Especially since the equation "Demotic Greek"="Standard Greek" isn't that straightforward either. You are not suggesting moving the whole system-sketch yet another step down, from "Modern Greek" into "Demotic Greek", are you? Phonology and all? I'd say, keep the central things at "Modern Greek" and treat that like other modern-language articles: System sketch about the modern standard form; summary sections about history including dialects etc., series of subarticles for details. In that sense, the "Modern Greek" article should definitely have a summary section explaining both the Katharevousa-Demotic split and giving a short discussion of the regional dialects, but then there's definitely space for sub-articles on those topics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

In fact, their is no need for an article like Demotic Greek or Katharevousa. We need a section in "Modern Greek" explaining the Greek diglossia, as FPaS says, and then, after the Greek language articles series is settled, something like Greek diglossia or Greek language question for a detailed account.--Michkalas 15:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, another valid point. Demotic and Katharevousa are certainly easier to treat substantially together in a single article. We just need to make sure the many incoming links to Katharevousa and Demotic Greek are redirected to something sensible, and we don't irritate readers with having both these links side by side close together in a text when they effectively lead to the same target. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series (4)

hm, so where is the bulk of this discussion going down? Best to keep it all in one place. Wikiproject Greek? Make sure to post a digest of any results to a permanent place, such as a Wikiproject, or a MoS page, so people joining the topic have a chance of finding them (nobody reads talk archives) dab (ᛏ) 17:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of the discussion is actually now here, right above - but I had to refactor it a bit to make it more easily recoverable. See also User talk:Michkalas. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Κωνσταντινούπολη

Wow! this was an excellent analysis!:). exactly what i desperately wanted to say, but cause of my lack of how and when to use english linguistic terminology, i would never had made it... (in greek it would be ridiculously easy for me:p) Hectorian 13:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Just fishin...

...Like the bait? -> Misplaced Pages:WikiProject History of Greece#Members •NikoSilver• 21:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Admin. noticeboard

Although I'm not an admin, I've left a message on Deucalionite's talk page. Please let me know if you find another instance of plagiarism involving this editor. I am an impartial observer, who neither knows nor edits with any of the parties involved. I have also promised to request a siteban on this user if it happens again. Durova 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

See my comments on Deucalionite's Talk page. His Treaty of Björkö article is very poor. --Macrakis 23:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Greco-Turkish relations

Ah yes, you simply create an image similar to the ones at Greco-Armenian relations and Armenian-Turkish relations. :) Perhaps Clevelander could make the map for you... —Khoikhoi 01:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Tetrastyle

Thanks for your praise. I believe what they mean by "tetrastyle" is normally rendered in English as "four-pillared" or "four-columned" or (better still) "a church with a single dome supported on four piers". Best regards, Ghirla 16:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Turkish name; "Selanik" for "Thessaloniki"

Dear Future Perfect at Sunrise, Yes you are right. If we add all foreign names to a city there would be a huge list. But except Turkish and especially for Selanik. Selanik was an Ottoman city during several hundreds years. Cultural roots of city (like as many other Greek cities) is Turkish and Greek. There are historical relations of many hundred thousands of Turkish people with Selanik.Like me, as my grandpa born at that city.Also, Ataturk . So,.. to add Turkish name to that city is not fanatism nor vandalism. I will add again with my respects to you. Regards.

Mustafa Akalp 16:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Phonetics

Hi, OK about the secondary stress marks and the e̞s and o̞s. I think you may also have a point about the /c/, I mean its not like the κ in και which definitely is a /c/. It could even be something like . --Tzekai 17:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

DYK

On 22 September, 2006, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Hosios Loukas, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Spiritus Asper

I saw your revision regarding Ayin and wanted to discuss it. I take my information from the following locations:

• Ayin entry in Misplaced Pages - "It is usually transliterated into the Latin alphabet with ʿ, a symbol based on the Greek spiritus asper "
• - (Regarding various pronunciations of Ayin): "One could argue that the initial "h" was simply a transcription, akin to greek (...) spiritus asper,"
• Gesenius Hebrew Grammar - (Regarding the transliteration of 'ayin') - the LXX reproduce (ayin) by a spiritus (lenis or asper) (sic).

Given the wikipedia description and Gesenius (who is considered an expert in such things), it seems reasonable to say that the spiritus asper mark us used to represent the Hebrew 'ayin'.

Why do you disagree? --Blue Tie 18:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that spiritus asper is a diacritc, while the latin version of 'ayin is its own proper symbol. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 19:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand that there is a difference in how it is used. But it is still a "spiritus asper", is it not? At least that is how the literature in such things refers to it. --Blue Tie 19:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, its adoption in Latin transcription of Hebrew may certainly be based on the Greek spiritus, as the Ayin article says, but they are still distinct signs. And I can't follow you in saying "that is how the literature ... refers to it." The jewish languages discussion forum you're quoting seems to be discussing the use of the actual Latin letter "h", *not* the spiritus sign, in some pre-modern systems of rendering Hebrew. The Gesenius grammar notes that the spiritus asper corresponds in pronunciation to a different Hebrew letter (an actual /h/ sound). Where it's saying that Ayin was rendered by way of approximation in Greek by either of the two spiritus, that's different on several counts: First, we're dealing with usage in Greek, not with the usage of adopting the spiritus-based sign in Latin. Second, saying that it was rendered by either of the two spiritus basically means it wasn't rendered at all - in Greek writing, you just have to have either of the two spiritus on an initial vowel, and by the time the LXX was written these no longer made any actual phonetic difference, as far as I recall. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Can you help me out? What is the symbol (ʿ) typically called when you spell ʿayin with it? When I look it up, I find the term "spiritus asper" most frequently. And it seems right also because of the pronunciation. But evidently that is not what it is called. I know it is not called "an apostrophe" (in fact that would be the wrong mark). It seems that wikipedia in one place calls it a spiritus asper, but from what I can tell based upon your knowledge this is wrong. So I am confused. I see that both this symbol and the spiritus asper symbol are defined as "left half circle" marks. To me they both look the same and indicate similar pronunciations, the difference being that sometimes it is used in Greek and sometimes it is used in Hebrew or Arabic. But if it is not the same thing then what is it called? --Blue Tie 00:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject History of Greece Newsletter - Issue I - September 2006

The September 2006 issue of the WikiProject History of Greece newsletter has been published.

You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link.

Thank you.--Yannismarou 07:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• By the way, welcome to the project! I didn't have the chance to welcome you earlier.--Yannismarou 07:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh hi!

Like the disguise? :)) — I'd been meaning to do this for some time anyway, now I can look cool like User:Charles Matthews, User:Jimbo Wales and all those other guys with spaces in their names! (I mean you of course!) - FrancisTyers · 11:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha, too late now :) They already did it. Maybe someone will put me up for nomination in a month or so (when I have the requisite amount of edits -- currently stands at 45) :) - Francis Tyers · 15:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the policy is to only give out adminship again through an RfA. Plus, I want to make sure that the community feels I am suitable for adminship, not just the people I work with (As much as I love you all) :) But seriously, I'd like to give it a month of editing as a normal editor. Perhaps when I come back from Serbia/Macedonia in November? - Francis Tyers · 15:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

IPA

We never agreed on what to do with the IPA on the Greece article. --Tzekai 08:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Right. These days, I keep hitting unto topics that need debate, and then never find the energy of actually following them through to the end. :-( As I said, I'd prefer a broad phonetic transcription on a (liberally) phonemic level. See the tables in my temporary User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek phonology for the symbol repertoire. Instead of we might also use (k with palatalization hook) - not standard part of IPA, but quite widely used in phonological treatments of Modern Greek, or . Both are easier to understand for the lay reader than , I think, and they might actually be more exact than . If you like , then ɡʲ instead of would be the obvious analogous choice. The voiced stops can be or according to their most common standard realisation (intervocalic or otherwise). rather than , for simplicity. Stress marked by a single primary stress mark. Vowels simply . Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

List of insular languages

There's no reason to waste time and resources to let this go on in AfD. I strongly dispute your ruling, and I want a second opinion from another admin. I've seen you do this before, because I remember that pic with your sloppy long hair. Billy Blythe 12:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Answered

Hi. I've answered your questions on my talk page. Redux 16:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ban

Thanks for clarifying; your edits were very good. Jayjg 20:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Check your email. Miskin 13:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Question

Hey Fut.Perf, would you be able to answer a question for me? I noticed at the Trabzon article the transliteration of "Τραπεζούντα" is "Trapezoúnda", but at List of traditional Greek place names they give "Trapezoúnta". Can you tell me which one is correct? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 22:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

"nt" is pronounced "nd". IMO the transliteration should be either etymological or phonetic: in the former case it would be Trapezoúnta, in the latter Trapezúnda. --Tzekai 22:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I also noticed at Names of European cities in different languages a third one, "Trapezúnda".

Also, when you type in "Trapezoúnda" -wikipedia, it seems as if you only get Misplaced Pages mirrors. —Khoikhoi 22:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Could well be. I think Tzekai is spot on here: "Trapezounta" (with ou and t) is a good transliteration, "Trapezunda" (with u and d) is a good phonetic transcription, "Trapezounda" is sort of in between and neither. As for the background to the "nt/nd" thing, see my draft article (still woefully incomplete) at User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek phonology. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright then. Nice article btw! —Khoikhoi 07:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Greek Motto

Hi. I never questioned if that phrase is the greek national motto in my whole life! but i will try to find a citation to make it clearer. Ciao Hectorian 21:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi

Hi there. I just wanted to let you know that I responded to you on my AfD. I'm curious to know what you have to say. Cheers, AdamBiswanger1 16:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Admin?

Now, you polyglot and Niko's compatriot, would you like to give it a try for an admin re? I thought you were one and you certainly act like one (if it quacks...).

If you disagree, I will block you for good, of course. Duja 15:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Damm!! I Wanted to do it first ! Oh well, I can always be your co-nominator... (can I?)--Aldux 15:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thank you both! I'm honoured. Actually, I was toying with the idea myself (especially since I lost Francis), but to be honest right now I'd prefer to give it another few weeks. Let me just quack on for a little while (blocked or not) to readjust my wikirole. For my own taste, I've been doing to much talkpage debating and too little actual article editing recently. I'd want to first get a few long-standing article projects done. But I guess I'll come back to you some time! :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you know the joke with the psychotherapist? A patient who visited him burst laughing outside his office. When the doctor asked him why, he responded: You call us insane, but it is you who has put a label infront of your office, admitting you are psycho-the-rapist! In the same sense, we could say Admin-is-trator!! You have no chance you polyglot compatriot impersonator pov-pusher! :-) •NikoSilver• 21:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi

What would you require me to do to prove that I will not be abusive again? I am prepared to accept some kind of suspended sentence if this is what you want. I have admitted I was wrong. I will try to change.--GreekWarrior 15:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't see any such sign anywhere so far, and after all that long history of opportunities, I'm skeptical if I would trust you. It's not up to me to decide, but personally, I must say I would be uncomfortable seeing you around and meeting you on topics I'm interested in, knowing your opinions (which apparently haven't changed, and which I find absolutely contemptible), even if you were outwardly well-behaving. Upshot is, I'm not going to get involved actively in this case either way. I won't rally opinion against a ban-lifting arrangement, in the (unlikely) event that the Arbcom should be prepared for one, but don't expect any help from me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

God

Unfortunately, I have not found another source except Kluge yet. But it would be great if you could integrate the already discussed points into the article (since your English is way better than mine lol). Thx. Tājik 13:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll have a look again. I was just not yet quite sure how to integrate the "*gheu-" story with the other "*ghu-/*ghau-" version that's already mentioned in the article. Must clarify if these are only different versions of the same root, or substantially different. I was hoping on Dbachmann, he's more knowledgable on those things than I am. Thanks for the constructive discussion. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Standard Modern Greek grammar

Hi, I don't know if you hate this. If you do, revert me; it was a bold move...--Tekleni 20:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hm, to tell you the truth I don't like it too much. It's common practice to have language articles under a generic language name that nevertheless deal predominantly with the modern standard form only. We are already diverging from that scheme (rather too much for some people's taste) by not just leaving it at Greek grammar pure and simple; I think having a double exact specification "Standard" plus "Modern" is a bit much. And as long as noboy is going to write the article on Pontic Greek grammar, I think this is quite safe. (You know the famous Dawkins study on Pontic, do you? :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

How about "Standard Greek grammar"? Modern is a pleonasm anyway. Miskin 00:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Why remove the text about Megalexandros in Koine Greek? You can leave this one there, separately of what you're about to add. It's a beautiful text and in a way relevant to the article (about Alexander III and all). I don't see a reason to remove it. Miskin 00:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

As for the article naming, that's just part of the restructuring we discussed some weeks ago. I thought you agreed on the general scheme. I just started going through with it now.

As for the sample texts, please see Talk:Koine Greek. There had been some justified criticism that the transcription models chosen in those texts were unsourced, unprincipled and/or OR, so I thought it best to take new texts where proposed phonetic transcriptions are actually available in the literature. Horrocks, as usual my principal reference. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: "Sumerian gulf"

Sure, I wouldn't mind at all. I'm pretty positive it was Sargonious. —Khoikhoi 01:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of alternate names...

Have you noticed that someone got a bot to revert Mywayyy from now on? (was it you?) Check out the recent history of Antalya. :-) —Khoikhoi 09:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Heheh, noticed it, but no, I'm innocent. Maybe VoA got the hint from Aldux, or from our mysterious friend Scabbers the Rat? Or, much simpler, he was just monitoring WP:AIV. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, well whoever's idea it was...I wish it would work for all banned users. —Khoikhoi 09:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

rat...http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Khoikhoi Cockkhoi to be mop :)))) lol --194.254.169.40 17:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation?

Is this image a copyright violation from here? The user who uploaded it says he made it himself... If you want to really compare them, compare this and this.--Tekleni 15:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks pretty much like it. Tag it as a copyvio and give MA a warning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

How do you do that (which templates)? Shouldn't I just tell Duja (who seems to be online at the moment) for him to delete it?--Tekleni 15:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Strangely, it doesn't seem to be covered by WP:CSD, because he was claiming it was his own work. But I've tagged it and listed it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Arbitration Committee Clerk FloNight 19:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Image

Dear Future Perfect at Sunrise,

It would be a great shame for me if I would transfer an image from an external source and remarked it as "self-made". This image was transferred from an external link and modified by me, using Bannership GIF editor. For your convenience, another version will be uploaded just now. see: Image:Turkish Animated Flag

I hope User:Tekleni will contribute to in positive manner; adding some articles, editing old ones with a valuable-neutral data instead of putting radical-national views, deleting marks, reverting the articles,etc.

Regards. Note: You are free to remove(or not) the old picture. Mustafa Akalp 11:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Images

All of two images tagged with "Delete" by me. Sorry for inconvinience. Regards. Mustafa Akalp 12:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

σίγουρα. :-) —Khoikhoi 17:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Republic of Gumuljina / Turkish Republic of Western Thrace

Hi, if i did not realize the article they merged, it would be nominated for deletion, without any discussion on the talk/discussion page. I know Hectorian and Tekleni from edit wars, that's why i consulted experienced people. I do not want to involve in any edit war, but this time they were so quick in this merging/deleting process, that's the main reason for applying professional help. Actually, i accidentallly saw the article and never edited. Thanks for your consideration. E104421 08:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi E, just a few points. First, I noticed you also suspected Hectorian and Tekleni as sockpuppets. I can confirm from personal contact that they are not. Believe me, I know how frustrating it can be sometimes to try to get an edit through against a group of editors who act in concert, but in this case it's really just a group of people who happen to share many of their opinions.

Second, about that particular article. It's a bit difficult now for me to reconstruct what actually happened, because the article histories got merged. But apparently, there used to be a small but good stub article at the Republic of Gumuljina location from mid-2005 (). Then Mustafa Akalp mistakenly created a new article on the same topic, under a different name Western Thrace Turkish Republic (). This was expanded and moved to yet another name Turkish Republic of Western Thrace by Baristarim. This was all perfectly in good faith, but fact is nevertheless that these should never have been two separate articles. Then Hectorian noticed the duplicity of the articles, and made the merge proposal, on 26 September (). Mustafa Akalp rejected the proposal () but declared he was merging the content from the "Gumuljine" to the "Western Thrace" article (but he apparently lacked understanding of wiki policies regarding mergers and POV forks). (). Two weeks later, Tekleni performs the merger back into his preferred location at the "Gumuljine" article, and properly sets a redirect.

I don't see where in all this "deletion" comes in. What exactly got deleted or proposed for deletion?

So, in all, I can't quite see that this was done without a chance for proper discussion. Well, to say the truth neither Hectorian nor Mustafa seems to have made much of an effort of really arguing why the one title was better than the other. Tekleni was at least giving a proper reason, the Google test. I have no strong opinion either way. But given the fact that there were in effect two weeks notice during which everybody was aware of the problem, and the fact that the "Gumulcine" article was the older (and hence "legitimate") one, I think this wasn't so inappropriate after all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

One more point, the Republic of Gumuljina was a stub, the other one is a more detailed one. Anyway, nobody used the talk/discussion page, but merged quickly, then nominated the article for deletion. Alex, changed the deletion process and merged the edit histories also. This kind of quick deletion attempts are so common related with turks/turkey related articles. Another example is Armenian rebellions article. The main actors does not differ to much and they communicate each other all the time. If you watch the edit histories of these people, you see their behavior towards turks/turkey related articles more clearly. When it comes to these articles, they do not discuss anything but shaming the articles and their editors as having nationalist pov. I actually did not involved in these, just observed the process, and wrote my comments, my opinion. That's it. Unfortunately, i could not see any good faith in this issue, cause nobody commented on talk/discussion pages and the merging happened during the edit war between Tekleni, Murat Akalp, Hectorian and BarisTarim. I guess Tekleni immediately started quick deletion process by putting the tag but without any comment, of course. You can see the tag here ] (this is Khoikhoi's version, actually there was a previous version but i think deleted while merging the histories). The best thing to do at that time was to protect the article, but i think the aim was to delete the article from wikipedia indefinetely. Regards, E104421 10:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, that's the deletion proposal you meant! But that wasn't done in order to actually erase the article, but just as a housekeeping measure to get the two articles merged in the technically appropriate way. Just as it happened in the end. Khoikhoi was right, this is actually how it's done (Misplaced Pages:How to fix cut and paste moves) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

All these happened so quickly without any consensus, even without any comment on talk/discussion pages (during an edit war). I wonder why? E104421 10:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no cabal, E104421. I had posted a messange in Mustafa's talk page about this, but i did not get a response... I had also mentioned it to Baris (who had said we'll have to think about it). so, don't say that the whole merging thing came out from nowhere! if there was no will to talk about it, it doesn't mean that the issue was solved... Hectorian 11:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Hectorian, why didn't you comment on the talk/discussion pages? These are the relevent places to built consensus. You should consider all users, not the editors of the recent versions. It is always better to check the talk/discussion pages before editing and better not to hurry. Regards, E104421 11:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Since these two users were the two most interested in that article, i thought of contacting them first, before making a proposal in the article's talk page... Just to see what their thoughts about this are... M.Akalp did not even replied on that and Baris (i acknowledge that he may had more interesting things to do at the time) left it to the future... Things are much simplier than conspiracies about 'sockpuppetry' and 'cabals' and God knows what else! Hectorian 12:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

If all the comments and discussions are done in the article's talk/discussion page, there would be no conspiracies. E104421 12:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I won't disagree on that. But in this case, i had made myself clear a long time ago (links for that are provided). It's not my fault that there was not interest about the rename before. Hectorian 12:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Some views

• Dear FPatS, here just some points of related article.

1-I never aware of that there is an article (named as Republic of Gumuljina) on that state. I started to write a new article(25.09.2006) "Western Trace Turkish Republic"( This is the translation word by word of Turkish name:Batı Trakya Türk Cumhuriyeti..-Official name is in Ottoman Language which you can see in article also)
2-Old article (I awared about it after 25.09.2006, due to edit war) was created firstly at 09.08.2005 and till to 14.08.2006 there were totally 12 edit on this article. As you will see in the historical edits, there is not any data more than a few cantences. Represent Greek POV, categorized under Greek related Categories. There is no any one word about Turks. Settlers, Presidency, Flag( I created flag on my computer,taking dimensions shapes and colors from a printed flag)750,000 Turkish population at that area etc.
3-Approximately,all the information on article added and developped by me, so I can see ethically myself as first editor. In my edits, you will see -as possible as- a NPOV. I put, Greek related categories, stubs, and names in to article. see history from 25.09.2006 till to now.
4-Official name of that state was never be "Republic of Gumuljine", any Greek user can find official name in their archives about this state, since Greece was the first state which recognized this contry.(Greece ceded Alexandroupoli-Turkish: Dedeağaç- to new state. Due to Geopolitic purpose against Bulgaria).Google searchs here, no make much sense since sources of all, two-three Greek site. "Turkish Republic of Western Thrace" is an english name.not local Turkish or Greek.

• Unfortunately, I(and most of the Turkish Users) cannot (any valuable) edit due to the nationalist Greek User attacks/rvs.
• What is sockpuppety.Is it -strictly- necessary to use same IP.See the users; Khoikhoi,Tekleni, Hectorian, AustovoulOs, Yandman, Miskin etc. They are acting together, when one of them made max 3RV on an article, than any other one continue to RV.They informed each other by mails not message on user talk page. See alerts for e-mails on their talk pages.

I need your oppinions. Regards Mustafa Akalp 10:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, three points in reply:

• About your creating the article: Yes, I know you did that in good faith, but of course the dupliate articles had to be cleaned up, by merging, either the one way or the other.
• About the preferable name: It's important to remember the crucial thing is not what was official at the time, but what's most common in English today. I don't know which is. But it doesn't matter much anyway, just mention all relevant names in the lead and make redirects from everywhere. Who cares what the big bold letters over the article actually say, when all you need is to be able to find the article when you type your preferred name in the searchbox?
• About "tag-teaming" between the Greek users: There's a thin line. These are all different people with different opinions, I can guarantee that. People teaming up to protect an article against a certain edit may mean two things. They may simply represent consensus. It can be frustrating to be on the wrong end of a consensus and to be unable to get your edit through, but that's just tough luck. Or they may be a team of abusive POV-pushers trying to silence an opposing view. I don't see that in this case, but believe me I keep my eyes open for such things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• If you check their edit histories, you'll see more clearly. Just take a look at the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus article, you see the same people from the edit history, but no discussion/talk. Check their edit histories, compare the articles related with turks/turkey they edited, you'll understand what i mean? E104421 11:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Yep, I can see where in that case the behaviour may have been crossing the line into being uncooperative. You mean the thing about that British court and "having jurisdiction" that you wanted to include? Yes, that would have warranted more constructive discussion. Will have a word with them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, this was not my edit, i also mentioned after the page protection in the talk page. I realized systematic pov edits there and decided to put the removed parts back. At the first time, when i tried to put the removed sentences back, i mistakenly revert the article due to edit conflict with another user (heavy traffic), then i corrected but this made no sense, i decided to quit editing. There is another user Aristovoul0s who put "totallydisputed" tag, without any comment or discussion in the talk/discussion page. Tekleni and Hectorian supported him. At the end of the edit war between Murat Akalp, Tekleni and Aristovoul0s, the article was protected but unfortunately with the "totallydisputed" tag. Even the SysOp Aecis edited the article, involved in the issue. After the protection, only Hectorian replied at the talk page. For Tekleni and Aristovoul0s, i guess, no need to comment cause the article turned out to be "totally disputed". I tried to explain in the talk page that POV and factual inaccuracy are quite different issues but nobody listened to me. If you watch their edit histories and compare their contributions to turks/turkey related articles, you'll see what i try to explain. E104421 11:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Another example, please check the edit history of the Template:Turkic-speaking nations, again hectorian, tekleni, clevelander (who started the deletion process of the article Armenian rebellions) all together are in edit war. This collaborations can also be proven from their edit histories. E104421 07:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know about Clevelander, but as for Tekleni, Niko and Hectorian, yes, you don't need to convince me they work together, I know that. They are friends. They happen to be my friends too, by the way. That in itself is really nothing you can do anything against. But I must agree, they've lately been getting involved in far too many petty edit wars for my taste too. :-( Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• What one should always remember is that it takes two sides to edit war. E104421 who keeps repeating how uninvolved he is was just now (tag-team) edit warring at the Turkic state/nation template. Take Annan Plan for Cyprus for example, now protected, but being trolled by Mustafa Akalp. Check he revision history, he was insisting on adding unwarranted and unexplained tags. When asked why the tags were being added, no response. I guess that is OK though... because different standards apply to Turks than to Greeks/Armenians. I don't know about E104421, but I have never refused a chance to discuss an article (unlike Mustafa, who probably hasn't edited an talkpage of an editable article in his life).--Tekleni 09:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

TRWT

• Please check the Turkish Republic of Western Thrace to see what happened.

Regards. Mustafa Akalp 10:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Please, you're not helping your case by labelling other editors vandals. I know Tekleni, he may be sometimes a bit quick with thre revert buttons, but he's definitely not a vandal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Translation

"Garbi Trakya Müstakil Hükümeti"; Ottoman language.
Garbi; Batı-Turkish, West/Western-English""
Trakya; Trakya-Turkish, Thrace-English""
Müstakil; Bağımsız-Turkish, Independent-English""
Hükümet-i; Devlet-Turkish, Government/State-English""

Regards Mustafa Akalp 11:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

TRWT-Flag&Name..source.

Flag of Turkish Republic of Western Thrace Here is the source for flag and name of the state.It is obviously determined as;
Turkish; Tarihteki ilk Türk cumhuriyeti olan Batı Trakya Türk Cumhuriyeti bayrağı.
English; The flag of Turkish Republic of Western Thrace which is the first Turkish republic in the history. Gümülcine/Gumuljine is a city only(Capital city of state). This is another example of nationalist Greek approach to the events. By the rename a state (by its capital city's name), somebody tries to degrade the importance of a historical state. What is the next step?

Regards. Mustafa Akalp 17:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Template

Hi! can u imagine how a template 'Greek-speaking (something)' would be if we followed the same format as in the proposed Template talk:Turkic-speaking nations, by including autonomous regions and peoples? just a pov-fork example: Greece, Cyprus (including TRNC, of course), Northern Epirus (as de jure should-be autonomous under the Corfu Protocol, parts of Southern Italy (where Griko is officially recognised as a minority language), Imbros and Tenedos (as de jure should-be autonomous under the Treaty of Lausanne), etc. I think we should not open this 'gate'... Hectorian 10:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see the parallel here. I was under the impression that these Russian entities are set up explicitly with the purpose of providing ethnically defined autonomy to those various groups. And that the respective Turkic languages therefore have some official status within these entities. That may be true even if the Turkic groups may not necessarily form a strong majority in all of them - I have no knowledge about that. So, in a certain sense, these entities are really officially "Turkic-speaking", by design. See it more in parallel with a hypothetical "Celtic-speaking countries" (I'm too lazy to look up if that actually exists). Of course you'd list not just Ireland, but also Scotland and Wales and Isle of Man, and probably also the Bretagne (even that is not even a subnational autonomous entity). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in short, the Russian republics are de jure and de facto officially Turkic-speaking. but Crimea in Ukraine is none of the two. also TRNC is de jure non-existing, but de facto existing (in some way). Imbros and Tenedos' autonomy is de jure existing, but de facto not... If u check the countries and subnational turkic-speaking entities listed and compare them with the map here, u will see what i mean by saying pov-fork... (maybe i am confusing the meaning of 'pov-fork':/, though...). Hectorian 10:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you are :-) A POV fork is when you write a new article that competes with another on the same topic that already exists. - As for what to include, I think in the present case it'll be quite okay to draw the line at things that are really state-like (if subnational) entities, like those Russian "republics". Not just areas that have a regionally specific minority status (we're not going to list Western Thrace as a Turkic-speaking "country", obviously.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Damn! i should had said just 'POV';-). I am really not in favour of including subnational entities in such templates... Better to have really sovereighn nations, without having to think which subnational entity is state-like or has enough autonomy to be included. btw, W. Thrace is not autonomous, but the 1/3 of its population has special religious minority privilleges. Hectorian 11:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Maps

I just saw Greece's article in the German wikipedia . don't u think that the location map there is better than the one that we have here?: EU highlighted and then the member-state over-highlighted. Hectorian 11:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Try it out. The file is already on Meta, so you can use it right away. It might be a bit big, make sure we don't bloat the infobox too much. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

About the polytonic: its not a big deal. u may add it if it's for 'beautifing' reasons;-) Hectorian 11:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal assalut&affront , baffling, change the target.

• What one should always remember is that it takes two sides to edit war. E104421 who keeps repeating how uninvolved he is was just now (tag-team) edit warring at the Turkic state/nation template. Take Annan Plan for Cyprus for example, now protected, but being trolled by Mustafa Akalp. Check he revision history, he was insisting on adding unwarranted and unexplained tags. When asked why the tags were being added, no response. I guess that is OK though... because different standards apply to Turks than to Greeks/Armenians. I don't know about E104421, but I have never refused a chance to discuss an article (unlike Mustafa, who probably hasn't edited an talkpage of an editable article in his life).--Tekleni 09:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an obvious assault and affront to my personality. I required an excuse

1-Annan Plan for Cyprus; I put tags, aiming, a-to alert the readers , b-to invite other users to contribute the development of article. Why a neutral user can be disturbed due to a "Disputable" tag. Unfortunately, without making any contibution on article (me-myself or any other user), article reverted(deleting tags) without no any word of explanation (on talk page also).Tekleni reverted 8 times without any addition/contribution between 06.10.2006-11.06.2006. With the last revert, there was a self-explanatory message on talk page from Tekleni; Mustafa, what is your problem? Fix it, no one's stopping you... lazily slapping an unexplained tag on and doing nothing else approaches trolling.--Tekleni 16:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC). I required Page protection, in this period. Tags removed by Tekleni 2 more times. No body can accuse me due to putting tags to dispute on page. But I can.

2-Edit-Rv war was not started by me. Till to, attacks of Tekleni and some other users, I newer made reverts unnecessay/without looking consensus.During the my first one-two days in wikipedia, yes. But when I took some messages/warning, I saw the mentality of wiki and stopped such a works. Any body can see my efforts and suggestions in the talk pages of many users like Khoikhoi, Hectorian etc and talk pages of some articles on my efforts looking consensus.see my contributions also.

3-About Tekleni; Nobody can not find a positive contribution to any article Tekleni Contributions.Tekleni focused on Turkey related articles/templates or some other similar articles to put anti-Turkc POV to these material.Contibutions are;some times obviously anti-Turk,some times hidden in other phrases that change the meaning in the same way. Is he a (good faith specialist) on Turkey, this is a question which replied by his works.

4-Group works; Why a wikipedian need e-mail comminication with some others. If these users are working on same article, and one of them alerts others for e-mail after his/her third RV, this matter must be focused.

To neutral Greek and other users, lets help to stop nationalist approaches in wikipedia and lets make contributions not war.

TRNC-name, There is discussions on this matter. Remember the "unrecognized" or "recognized only by" remaks. What is the referenced item? which one is "recognized only..", N Cyprus/ Norhern Cyprus or Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. There is no any state which name is "N Cyprus", otherwise there would be no complaint abot that state.In other word there is a state, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus that complained about its recognision.

Regards Mustafa Akalp 12:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)