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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 21 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 19 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 88 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 67 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 58 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RfC:_Al-Manar

(Initiated 49 days ago on 15 November 2024) Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:37, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 49 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth#RfC on threshold for inclusion

(Initiated 44 days ago on 20 November 2024) TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 42 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Matt Gaetz#RFC: Accusations of child sex trafficking and statutory rape in the lead

(Initiated 36 days ago on 28 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC tag and the last comment was a couple of days ago. Can we please get a independent close. TarnishedPath 10:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#RFC: Referring to Masha Amini as Kurdish-Iranian in the lead

(Initiated 36 days ago on 29 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Last comment was a couple of days ago. Can we get an independent close please. TarnishedPath 11:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Zionism#RFC about a recently added claim about Zionism

(Initiated 34 days ago on 30 November 2024) The bot has removed the RFC notice. Can we get an independent close please. TarnishedPath 11:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 27#File:The Musician (Erling Blöndal Bengtsson) by Ólöf Pálsdóttir.jpg

(Initiated 37 days ago on 27 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 2#File:Batman superman.PNG

(Initiated 32 days ago on 2 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 15 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 14 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 101 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 79 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 77 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better to leave that discussion be. There is no consensus one way or the other. I could close it as "no consensus," but I think it would be better to just leave it so that if there's ever anyone else who has a thought on the matter, they can comment in that discussion instead of needing to open a new one. —Compassionate727  14:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 67 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

(Initiated 59 days ago on 5 November 2024) RM that has been open for over a month. Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 58 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 37 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Sex pest

Someone please work out why helpdesk is current showing a huge image from File:Berlin Sex Shop 2.jpg. Probably some template vandalism or something. Thx. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 07:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Seems to have been fixed now. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 07:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it was a change to Template:HelpDesk icon. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 07:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry for posting here - when it happened, it was super-urgent and this seemed the right place. 5 mins later, it seems I am crying wolf. Apologies. All is well, carry on. Nothing to see here. Thanks for explaining where it was, Anon. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 07:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

P.S. Can one of ya protectify Template:HelpDesk icon? Or do I need to file that request elsewhere? 86.20.193.222 (talk) 07:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for reporting it! That type of vandalism can be harder to solve, so reports like this are helpful. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah...I copy-pasted the page to sandbox, and I was trying to work it out, using Special:ExpandTemplates.. when the anon beat me to it! Sometimes hard to solve these ones. Cheers... 86.20.193.222 (talk) 07:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the template. The template only appeared on a handful of pages, but since those very pages are pretty visible (e.g. WP:Help desk), I figure there's more benefit than cost to protecting. Mz7 (talk) 08:04, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

FYI, the best place to make protection requests is at WP:Requests for page protection. However, if an admin sees a situation which requires protection, or a report of such a situation, (s)he's allowed to handle it regardless of any formal report. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:43, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Dinhio13 again

Going back to this report: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive973#Dinhio13. 7-day page protection did nothing, user is back at it. -BlameRuiner (talk) 10:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@BlameRuiner: What are the sources for Khubutia's early career? --NeilN 16:54, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Query about canvassing

Example: a merge proposal on the TP of a controversial article seeking local consensus for the merge rather than calling an RfC for wider community input. The article went through an AfD several months ago but the controversy lingers. Our merge guidelines are ambiguous so it can be expected that the merge will result in deletion. #1 - What are the proper steps to take in order to get wider community input which is needed for such an article, and #2 would it be "appropriate canvassing" to ping the editors and closer who were involved in the prior AfD? 16:27, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

It is appropriate to notify editors who were involved in the prior AFD and for getting the more community input, you can notify the WikiProjects related to the subject. D4iNa4 (talk) 16:58, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

With the utmost respect, D4iNa4, my question is a rather sensitive one in that such action may well be challenged, but thank you for your response. I thought the same, but I'm hoping an admin will also respond and confirm. 22:21, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Unless you tell us which discussion you're talking about, the best I can say is what D4iNa4 told you )(and yes, I am an admin). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:04, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Ditto; what D4iNa4 is correct. If you're not willing to tell us what you're talking about so we can assess whether there are genuinely special circumstances that apply (rather than what people usually mean by "this RFC/AFD/etc is too sensitive to publicise", which tends to be "I'm worried if the word gets out then people who disagree with me might find out about it"), then the only advice we can give is the generic list at Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#Appropriate notification. "Limited, neutral, nonpartisan and open"; don't bulk-spam the notification, don't word the notification in such a way as to favour one side or to appeal more to people supporting a particular view, ensure you provide equal notification to everyone regardless of which position you expect them to take, and always be willing and able to list exactly who you notified and how they were selected if you're challenged. –(current admin and former arbitrator, checkuser and oversighter) Iridescent 10:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

• And avoid this at all costs.Winged Blades 10:47, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Doncram

The following is cross-posted from the Arbitration Committee noticeboard.

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 5 (SarekOfVulcan–Doncram interaction ban) of the Doncram arbitration case is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should either SarekOfVulcan or Doncram fail to adhere to Misplaced Pages editing standards in their interactions with each other. Appeal of such a reinstatement would follow the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Doncram

Mainpage errors

The first ITN article on main page currently lead directly to redirect page Turkish military intervention in Afrin. It has been noted in WP:ERRORS since but no admin to act. –Ammarpad (talk) 09:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Just fixed it now. Cheers. fish&karate 09:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

process if a final/level 4 warning has been used as a first warning

Just a question - what's the accepted process in the following circumstances: I noticed some petty vandalism on the Bugatti Veyron article here and reverted it. I checked the editors contributions and saw this was the second time they'd done this, so thought to leave a message on their talk page - only to find that Roxy the dog had already done so, but gone straight to the "only warning" template.

Firstly - as per WP:BITE that seems a little extreme for what (at the time) was petty stuff and the only edit from a newcomer, but it also left me or anybody else little room to add any additional commentary about their second edit.

I left another template anyway, but it seems a bit weird to have a message that says "This is your only warning" - which is promptly followed by another warning. Chaheel Riens (talk) 14:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• It's vandalism, and it's petty and pointless vandalism. There's really no point to welcoming an editor who engages in that sort of behavior, or trying to encourage good behavior. It's best to let them know that if they don't stop on their own, we can force them to stop. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
• That's really the problem of the person leaving the over-the-top "only warning". It is quite acceptable to follow it with a level 1 or level 2 warning, or even better, a non-numeric handwritten note. -- zzuuzz 14:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
• An "only warning" should only be used for extremely bad vandalism - not for anything on the level of normal vandalism. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:51, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

The warning wasn't "over the top". Plonker was clearly not here to build an encyclopeadia. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 16:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Those look like "can I really edit Misplaced Pages?"-style vandalism, in my opinion not worthy of "only warning" level templates. There's a possibility (though small) that this editor can turn into a productive one. I use "only warning" templates also, but the vandalism must strike me as intentionally damaging the topic, or attempting to punk Misplaced Pages. Even then I've undoubtedly been too hasty on occasion. Anyway, if you see this you can always add a personal note underneath, with a gentler message encouraging constructive participation. (but never excusing vandalism, of course) 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 17:58, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

(e/c) The vandalism - I agree it was vandalism - was only petty, not obscene, racist, offensive in any particular fashion - and given that it was a first edit, not even a pattern. I mean - changing 407 km/h (253 mph) to read "20Kph" - yeah, that should knock Grawp off the top spot, eh? While the end result may have been for a level 4 warning and ultimately a block somewhere down the line, doesn't jumping straight to a final warning deny AGF, or indeed give the editor any real incentive to continue when faced with such an attitude? Chaheel Riens (talk) 18:03, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• This was definitely not "only warning" level vandalism, it was run-of-the-mill number-change vandalism. This gets a revert and a lv1 from me, generally. I use lv2 or lv3 as a first warning for more serious cases, and generally will only drop an "only warning" if the edit includes dick pics, explicit racism, or requires revdelete. On the other hand I have blocked users who leave excessive warning templates, per WP:BITE. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:08, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Well that turned needlessly sinister. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
    • No kidding Floq. Youze guys had better look at my edit history for today then. It's a typical day. I still see no reason to change my dealings with plonkers like this. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 18:42, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
      • Because other's are telling you it's overly harsh, generally out of step with community norms, and would you please dial it back a notch? That... that's the reason. GMG 18:51, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
        • As the OP here, can I ask Floquenbeam why this is "needlessly sinister"? Especially when I look at Roxy's edit history - as he requests we do so - and see that L4 warnings are pretty much all he uses, even for such heinous edits such as this or this. I started this thread as just a question, but after looking at the edit history, I really think Roxy is being a bit excessive. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:04, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
          • I was referring to the veiled threat of blocking Roxy the dog. Do you think that's a reasonable response? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:12, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, I'm not well versed in the etiquette expected of administrators, so couldn't comment with authority on whether a block is warranted. However, if Roxy thinks a block is warranted for a single silly edit, then I guess Ivanvector's implication for blocking a user who peppers dozens of L4 warnings for first and trivial offences, is ok - especially when backed up by policy. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:44, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

That strikes me as having seriously messed up priorities.

I'm always puzzled by this idea that some kid is going to vandalize, and then might become productive, but only if treated with kid gloves, and who won't become productive if clearly told that what they're doing is vandalism and will lead to a block. Most of the time, the gently escalating warning system is giving the vandal the attention they crave, and actually reinforcing the desire to vandalize. I'm not saying there's no such thing as a reformed vandal, I'm saying that (a) the odds are very low, (b) if they're going to reform, they can reform after a level 4 warning just as easily as after a level 1 warning. While I don't care if others want to be more gentle, and I don't care if others want to recommend a softer approach to Roxy, given the unlikely payoff, it seems really weird to threaten a long-term productive editor with a block; that's much, much more likely to damage the encyclopedia than too quickly warning vandals about being blocked if they don't knock it off. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Chaheel, did you look at the edit histories of the pages concerned, and the warnings issued already to the editors concerned in the two examples you gave above? -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 20:55, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

No, because much like your own editing style I made assumptions. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

As I said in my previous edsum, you should. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 21:18, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Am I missing something here?

• An individual creates a new account and vandalizes an article, using a deliberately misleading edit summary ("changed the date").
• The vandalism is reverted a few minutes later, and the new account receives a warning.
• The individual returns three hours later and vandalizes the same article as his second edit using this account, again using a false and misleading edit summary: ("nothing more just updated speeds").
• Now we're having an extended discussion on AN about this.

Seriously? This is obviously someone who has edited Misplaced Pages before, and created an account solely for petty vandalism. There is no reason whatsoever to 'escalate' through three or four levels of warnings, when it's pretty obviously a child or childish adult screwing around and wasting our time. To an experienced admin, that is pretty apparent from the first edit, and painfully obvious by the second. This isn't a situation where we need to talk about which warning template is appropriate; this is a situation where an admin should just revert and block.

I have done so now. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:34, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Following that, I don't see any need to respond here any further, unless a direct question needs answering. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 21:37, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• The short answer to the original question is that there is no defined process, different users take a variety of approaches to handling vandalism. If you want to make a big deal out of how one particular user is doing it, WP:ANI is thataway. If yo were trying to have a policy discussion WP:VPP is over there. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

It behooves everyone to remember the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Bear with me; this IS relevent.

The only purpose of a block is to prevent disruption. If an obscure article is 'wrong' for 10 minutes, it is not disruptive.

If we deal with users like this in a professional, understanding way then - very occasionally - they become productive editors.

I am sure that most people reading this will be mostly dealing with vandals, and thus jaded; but I beg you to step back.

999/1000 of people who make edits like this will be useless to the objective of Misplaced Pages. But that one might be gold. Just think, if 1/1000 makes 10,000 good edits, it's a net positive.

There is no 'level 1-3' warning system here; that's an entirely fictitious system, which may be convenient but has absolutely no meaning.

TL;DR: Be nice. 99% of the time you'd be right to assume they're assholes, but that 1% is pure gold. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Elegant words from someone who just told another editor to "get the fuck out", at the Help Desk of all places. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 20:53, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Upon reading the comment above, I'm tempted to opine that losing one nominally valuable editor who thinks it's funny to write "MY BROTHER IS A DICKHEAD" or change the top speed of a car to 20mph, (contrast with actually funny vandalism like this) is a sufficiently low cost to pay to make 999 vandals think twice about doing it again.

For the record: my IP address received a "warning" that consisted of being told to get a life, coupled with speculation about my mental faculties and social acumen once, before I registered an account. I didn't even perform the vandalism it was in response to; an IP whose last quartet had one additional digit to mine did (kids, never drink and copy and paste). Despite being given that incredibly bad impression, I still registered an account and have been editing ever since. Mostly because I'm the kind of person who takes enjoyment in contributing to an encyclopedia. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:03, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Forgive me...I'm in stitches...that we're even having this discussion. It would be interesting to partake in the research to see the valuable time vandals consume vs the productivity of the project without them. Think of the anonymous phone calls over the years to retailers asking, "Do you have Prince Albert in a can?" If the clerk says "Yes, we do" the caller says "Better let him out!" and hangs up. Time sink - no chance those anonymous callers will ever become fans of the store or Prince Albert. Just saying. 22:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

What is being sorely missed here is the wider point of warnings and other administrative intimidation being used on users who will have no idea what any of it means. It is fine for users to be warned, but being warned with the stiffest warning first, as opposed to a simple welcome to Misplaced Pages and a note, is not in anyway an assumption of good faith. New users should be welcomed. They should not be hounded off the project for what is an in this case a tiny edit. The whole system of warnings needs looking at. Heavy handedness, and bad faith assumptions are rife by the looks of it from some users. I am not an administrator, I am simply someone who has had too many sanctimonious warnings and other threatening gibberish placed on my talk page, all with little to no explanation and no prior discussion being attempted. It seems that the lazy option is taken of warn and run. Then block and be damned. The way new users and for that matter any user should be approached is with discussion and openness. Along with a mind to inform and educate. This whole shtick of warn and scare off is never going to get new users into the project. Anther user described the edit in question as an "I can really edit this?" style edit. Users doing that should not be condemned they should be mentored. This thread shows a far deeper issue of the problem underlying the need to have bought this thread up in the first place. Sport and politics (talk) 00:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Understood - I'm actually an avid supporter of editor retention, so I'm inclined to give productive editors the same consideration I give vandals. I'm not convinced that vandals should be given more consideration simply because we "assume" they aren't familiar with PAGs and that's why they're being disruptive. If they don't understand the difference after one stern warning, why should we treat them any differently from the way we treat veteran editors who knowingly abuse 1RR DS? Regardless, it still boils down to the discretion of our trusted administrators. Are there any stats showing the results of vandalism/persistent vandalism after being warned? 00:57, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Standard offer for User:Mgstaggers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am willing to unblock User:Mgstaggers based on the wp:Standard offer and his unblock request . I need community approval for unblocking per WP:SO. Vanjagenije (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm unsure of policy here: this is a CheckUser block; you got approval from a checkuser () but not the blocking checkuser. Do you need Bbb23's consent? Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

"Except in cases of unambiguous error or significant change in circumstances dealing with the reason for blocking, administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter." (WP:NEVERUNBLOCK) Still, hard to "blame" Vanja as Katie instructed him to come here. In any event, I know the user was blocked for spam, and I know he says he won't continue spamming if he's unblocked, but I don't know (haven't looked) whether a significant portion of his edits before being blocked were not spam. That would seem to me to be an important question.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, my bad. Katie 20:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• Well, with that procedural pedantry out of the way (you're welcome) I support the unblock request. There doesn't appear to be any evidence of socking after the original case, and the incidences of spam (I see three total spam edits between two accounts?) seem to be an odd misstep in a generally productive history. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 22:02, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose I see no history at all to go off of. We wouldn't likely grant this user pending changes reviewer or rollbacker if they asked for it because there is no reasonable editing history to track. They have a total of 171 178 total edits, were caught socking, and spamming links. There is nothing in their history which suggests to us that we should trust them to be a productive contributor. If anything, their history of contributions is what you would expect from a spammer who is attempting to build a long-term account that slips past filters and reviewers: short spurts of editing over several years, bouts of WikiLove messages, and then suddenly they start spamming when they have enough edits not to be a completely new redlink account. They should remain blocked and per the banning policy a declined unblock should be taken as a community site ban. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:19, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

On the same token, one thing we know about SPA spammers is they do not stop when their first account is blocked. They make new accounts and come back over and over and over again. Mgstaggers has intermittent constructive history going back many years, even though it doesn't amount to much and you're probably right about granting them advanced permissions, it's also hardly enough that they would have become intimately familiar with all of our policies and guidelines. I'm willing to assume good faith that they made a fairly common mistake and were dealt a pretty severe punishment because of it (rightly so, socking is serious) but that they seem to have learned from that. At least, there's not evidence that they haven't, and I still like to think we're not in the business of kicking users out forever because they made one or two mistakes as n00bs. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 13:37, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

The standard offer is not typically intended for situations like this, however. It is intended for users who have a history on Wikimedia projects of constructive contributions and who made a mistake. That is simply not the case here. We also don't know that they aren't an SPA spammer: we know that they haven't socked in the last 90 days, which given their history, is entirely in line with them still intending to sock again. I would be more open to this if they actually had a record on any Wikimedia project, but they simply don't have that. Even with LTAs that are requesting the offer we typically have some history to go off of. We have nothing at all here. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

• Pedantry (and nitpicking) is always a good thing. 176 live edits and 2 deleted.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:45, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Bbb, I Xtools showed 171 total for me. Updated above (though my point stands). TonyBallioni (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Tony. !dave 06:56, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
• Weak support, oddly enough, for pretty much the exact reasons Tony opposes. That is, because there's not much to go on, we can't really say anything about this editor. The reason the SO, to my understanding, came into existence is because the other option for long-term blocks and bans was for editors to show us how they have improved via contributions elsewhere on other projects. In most cases, that just didn't happen—there was rarely enough, and it was rarely good enough, and so indeffed editors stayed blocked. So we have the standard offer, in which we will typically overlook past misconduct. It doesn't mean that the person has to have been a net positive without the blockable offense. That said, I'm not particularly impressed with the unblock statement, and get the feeling that Mgstaggers still doesn't quite "get" Misplaced Pages (talking about the "Misplaced Pages database" and using the phrase "fervent wish" strike me as a bit... out of touch) but this could equally be due to inexperience. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 07:12, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Mendaliv, correct, we do typically like to see positive participation before the block on this project and/or positive participation on other projects after the block. The latter also hasn't happened in this case. Just pointing that out since you brought it up in your support. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:27, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
    • My point is that the SO was devised to save people from the catch-22 scenario of having to show positive contributions post-block but don't really have an acceptable place to accrue them. Commons, for instance, is a very different environment, and small enough that you can work a long time without amassing the interactions a classical unblock discussion would demand. Contribs to non-English wikis are tough to evaluate, and not everybody can do that. The SO lets us skip all that. What matters, at least in my book, is that the grounds for blocking weren't particularly crazy (i.e., LTA cases probably aren't suitable for the SO) and that the request itself makes some steps towards taking ownership of past misdeeds. I'll admit the latter is where I pause in this case, but I feel the misconduct is petty enough that it's at the bottom end of a "SO required" unblock request, and so I feel comfortable enough giving the benefit of the doubt on that.I have thought hard about this case, and what makes me willing to completely ignore the lack of pre-block contribs is the fact that Misplaced Pages is the 💕 that anyone can edit. We don't require a track record for people to enter the community for the first time, and because the SO is sort of "starting over", I see no reason to apply a different standard to pre-block contrib quality. If there were evidence that Mgstaggers were so incapable of editing that a return to good conduct would still be severely disruptive, I could be swayed, but I don't see it in this case. And, realistically, given editors with virtually no pre-block track record probably could just make a new account and not get noticed, I think it says something good that this editor is going the honest route. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 14:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
      • Fair enough. I disagree, obviously, as I typically want proof from a socking spammer as to why I should trust them, and I don't see that here, but I understand your POV. I suppose my view is that while we are the encyclopedia anyone can edit, once you have shown that you simply don't care about our rules and want to use us to further commercial enterprises, you need a very strong case to be let back in. I don't see that here. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:11, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I declined this user's unblock request on 2017-06-22, about a week after the original block. However, now that six months have passed, my position is that this user has shown no further block evasion and it's worth extending the standard offer. --Yamla (talk) 12:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support 2nd chance. If someone can make an edit like this, they are sure capable of making more productive edits. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support per Mendaliv. Reblocking is easy if needed. Miniapolis 00:09, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support per Yamla, Mendaliv etc. In the event of problematic editing a reblock would indeed be simple, and, I suspect, swift. -- Begoon 02:16, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support As others have noted, were this a truly malicious user the odds are high that they would have simply tried to evade their block. And if it turns out we are wrong here, fixing the mistake is likely to involve only a few clicks. The Standard Offer is something that in the world business might be termed a speculative investment. In this case I find the potential risk/reward ratio to be fairly attractive. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:33, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support - while I appreciate Tony's concern, I wonder how this editor could *prove* he won't spam/sock again. Per Yamla and Ad Orientem and others, I strongly suspect this editor's work will face high scrutiny. Worth the risk, and easy to rectify if it doesn't work out. If unblocked, I would suggest to Mgstaggers that if they have any concerns that an edit of theirs may slightly violate NPOV or SPAM, that they seek advice from an experienced editor, because the leash will be short for some time. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support - if we believe in a second chance, we must give it a real chance of succeeding. This user has lived up to our standard offer - which this user appears to do completely. I wouldn't oppose an explicit limit to a single account for the user, or an explicit restriction related to external links, but beyond that the only way to check if any user is truely ready to be unblocked is to see that they wait for a reasonable period of time, say the correct things, and then we unblock them and they edit correctly. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:15, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Two CUs (it would seem) have looked at it, and (most) everyone deserves a second change. I would add they should be limited to one account and understand they have being given a length of WP:ROPE, so they would do good to not hang themselves with it as they will be under higher scrutiny once unblocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:10, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support unblocking per TonyBallioni and WP:ROPE. Yes, he opposed. But I support for the reason he opposed: Without a history to work from we're left with AGF, and blocks are cheap anyways. It won't take but a few days to figure out if this user is serious or not. --Jayron32 19:14, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Contribution surveyor

There used to be a tool called Contribution surveyor that counted up the sizes of an editor's additions and deletions, separated out by article. It appears to be busted, at least as of last night, and its author has been gone for years. Is there any kind of replacement for it? I haven't used it in a while so haven't been following developments. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 21:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

It was formally taken over by the WMF. The source code is publicly available, but I don't know how much work is necessary to get it to run (1) on the current toolserver or (2) some other hosting platform. If it's really important, I have some code lying around that is an imperfect substitute. MER-C 22:17, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I might try to run the Github code, or if your code is available someplace public I might give it a try. Somehow I had thought Contribution Surveyor used database access. If it's just an API client then I can run it or something like it. The thing I wanted to check isn't super-important so I won't ask you to run it for me. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the source, it does appear to use database access. SQL 01:43, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Come to think about it, this looks like something I can replace (with a 40,000 edit hard cap). Don't expect to see anything in the near future, I have much bigger fish to fry at the moment. MER-C 21:38, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I was looking at converting it over to tools:, but it would be 2 weeks minimum before I could start any work right now. SQL 21:46, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks both of you. I could conceivably also contribute code at some point, and I have some code currently that could be modified for this purpose. But I couldn't be involved in operating it. Someone else would have to deal with toolserver or whatever they call it now. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 03:59, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Deleted Article BLP on UserPage

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I am concerned about the existence of User:Inexpiable/Jerome Ersland - this was an article originally deleted under Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jerome Ersland and deleted quite quickly as the subject fails WP:Notability and also the article had issues with POV, BLP, and OR. Following the article's deletion, this post was made, then the article subsequently restored on a user page. The user making the request promised to work on the article and improve it. This was never done and the article has existed on this user page for nearly two years. My main concern here is that the restoration of this article is an attempt to keep Jerome Ersland's information on Misplaced Pages probably for the status of "having a Misplaced Pages article" but also there are some real world concerns here relating to Ersland being in prison and attempting to appeal his sentence. This concern is made doubly so by the article referencing the Jerome Ersland support page as one of its "sources" . The way this article has been "nestled away" on a user page really concerns me as I think there is more going on here and that this breaks our rules about WP:BLP, if not several others. Can an administrator please review this situation. -O.R. 17:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm not interested in the case anymore, delete the article it's not a notable enough case. I've deleted the stuff on the page you're referring to and have no interest in making a new page for it. Inexpiable (talk) 17:40, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I moved it back to article space and redeleted it per the WP:AFD. ~ GB fan 17:52, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

IRC

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Hi,

I've just been banned from the #wikipedia-en-help chat thing in IRC. I did absolutely nothing wrong, I helped users - giving good advice, in accord with all Misplaced Pages rules.

Is there anything I can do to appeal the ban?

I was banned by "Waggie" apparently.

I've tried speaking to that user, but have had no response.

I would like to continue talking there - in particular, a user was asking about their draft about a motorcycle, and I was helping them make it more suitable for inclusion.

Thanks, 86.20.193.222 (talk) 21:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Mind logging in to your actual Misplaced Pages account? —Jeremy v^_^v 22:07, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Jeske, I'll comment in IRC.

For info, here is more IRC discussion;

(Redacted) 86.20.193.222 (talk) 22:17, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict):Given IRC logs should not be posted here, I'll say this: you were being patently unhelpful and rude to a helpee which resulted in that helpee then getting frustrated and rude themselves. You've refused to work with other helpers and in fact, have been banned previously for this exact same behavior. This isn't an AN problem, I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish here. But good luck with whatever your crusade is. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 22:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks.

I tried to appeal, and got further 'banned'. Apparently, we cannot even talk about these things - which seems the antithesis of Misplaced Pages.

(Redacted) 86.20.193.222 (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

As you were in the room and can read, the top of each WMF channel explicitly states "No public logging" yet you've posted the logs here, publicly. I'd imagine that's the reason for your ban. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 22:27, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

For those interested in background info: Misplaced Pages talk:IRC/wikipedia-en-help/Archive 1. Killiondude (talk) 22:30, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Note: The IP was an evading banned editor. GoodDay (talk) 23:32, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

@GoodDay (or whoever), the IP was recently blocked for ban evasion but then unblocked on another admin's assurances that they were not the banned editor. Are they a different banned editor? Is there any chance someone can elaborate on this at all, or is it private info? Please email me if necessary. (courtesy ping Yamla and Huon) Ivanvector (/_Edits) 01:42, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Consider it a +12 year veteran Wikipedian's intuition. GoodDay (talk) 01:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The IP belongs to another editor who (until these events) was neither blocked nor banned. Personally I would consider the use of an IP in this way an attempt to evade scrutiny, particularly if it's used to edit-war about oversightable content. I'm a little squeamish about publicly connecting IP and username, though it seems pretty much an open secret at this point. If you consider it important enough, I can either provide the information in private, or maybe Courcelles, who knows the details, can weigh in on whether the person's actions on-wiki are sufficient to make me publishing the connection "not outing". Huon (talk) 08:40, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@Huon: Judging whether something is an "open secret" or not is fraught with peril in regards to how open they really are, and, anyways, the global privacy policy pretty much dictates keeping mouths shut unless you're damned sure you can talk. In this case, I'd rather not say anything to non-CUs than end up explaining myself to the Ombudsmen... Courcelles (talk) 18:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Ombuddies, please, in this modern world of Chairs and gender equality. MPS1992 (talk) 20:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Ombudsperson actually has a dictionary entry. Ombuddies are friends who go to meditation class with you. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:04, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Please restore link

to thread above for an I-Ban. We hope (talk) 23:10, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're asking for. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:15, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I reposted here as the link isn't working since the mass revdel. We hope (talk) 23:17, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

22:28, 24 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+2,410)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard ‎ (→‎I-Ban request: new section) We hope (talk) 23:18, 24 January 2018 (UTC) Its struck on my contribuions page. We hope (talk) 23:19, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I had to oversight a whole bunch of revisions, for an unrelated reason. While you couldn't link to a diff of your post (and it was technically not possible for me to restore it), you could still link to the section, which was never deleted. Or, you could do what you did below, that works too. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

The odd thing is that the post itself remained online here but the link to it was struck and wouldn't work. I reposted the original request below. We hope (talk) 23:25, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

It's not odd, that's how revdel and suppression work; I can explain more on your talk if you want, but I always imagine most people's eyes glazing over and them giving me the "I could not possibly care less" vibe when I start explaining the minutiae. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Suppose that I've never been in the right place at the right time for it to happen-like viewing a total eclipse. ;) We hope (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I-Ban request

Can someone here convince User:Volvlogia to try being civil? This stems from the thread he opened at ANI yesterday. When no one removed this polemic from his user page I did saying he could take me to ANI about it. When he continued altering my comments here, I posted to his talk page about 3RR and not altering others' comments. He then posted to my talk page to let me know "You are a hypocrite".

Apparently for removing the previous polemic, he posted more directed at me: "Censorship, served hot and fresh by we hope!" The thread about 3RR was then posted to ANI with the following note: "WH posted on my talk page, don't know why he was too scared to say it here, but here's the exchange." Today he removed my post from another editor's talk page and pinged me (not knowing he's muted) with the comment "{WP:POLEMIC. I think {{ping:we hope}} can agree there's precedent)".

The matter went from ANI to ArbCom yesterday. I've never been in contact with this editor before he started the ANI thread. Since then it's been almost continual harassment and personal attacks apparently because I don't see things his way. I would like a one-way I-Ban to stop the harassment directed at me by the editor. We hope (talk) 22:28, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

This seems to me like an attempt to distract from the larger issue a hand: the ArbCom debate. I'll cooperate with discussion here, but I don't think my behavior is at all comparable to Cassianto's, in scale or scope. --Volvlogia (talk) 00:20, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

No-it's an attempt to stop your unwarranted PAs and harassment which is fully documented in the links above. We hope (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Comment Stop bringing others into this who have nothing to do with this issue-it's YOU and your attacks/polemics and harassment we're here to discuss. We hope (talk) 00:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I have no desire to speak to you. I had no initial intention of speaking to you. The issue I raised which started this is with Cassianto, I have no desire to speak with you outside of the context of this discussion. I hope that this is the last time we exchange messages, I have no intention of interacting with you. I have never targeted you, only responded. Please do not respond to me, we can both let it go and allow the ArbCom debate to continue. --Volvlogia (talk) 00:35, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

So why all of the above if you want nothing to do with me? I certainly feel the same about you but I've not done any of the things you have. I want a formal I-Ban, not just this "agreement". We hope (talk) 00:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

"...I've not done any of the things you have." You accuse me of improperly posting a polemic on my talk page. In frustration, I accused you of censorship. Here are two instances of you speaking negatively of me in similar ways. You posted a polemic on Cassianto's talk page describing me as a "Tinfoil Hat" wearer. Later, you posted on Serial Number 54921's talk page a post against me, which I took issue with, as you took issue with my accusing you of censorship. In addition, "I posted to his talk page about 3RR and not altering others' comments.", here you are altering a comment to add {{RPA}}, which spurred my editing of your comment with {{RPA}}. This can hopefully be my final response to this inquiry, unless an admin requests otherwise.--Volvlogia (talk) 01:21, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Again-posting polemics like that is against the rules; you saw fit to post two of them. The post on Cassianto's page has no names connected with it. What you have been doing refers to people BY NAME. Warning you about 3RR and about refactoring comments of others which are also in the rules caused you to post this on my talk page to inform me I was a hypocrite. There are also no names connected with the post you removed on someone else's talk page. It's against the rules to remove someone else's posts from anywhere but your OWN talk page. You also tried pinging me but you're muted. Not adding "nowiki /nowiki" to the ping template results in a red link-and it was the ping template {{ping:we hope}}. When the second polemic was brought up at ANI an admin removed it from your user page. When you removed my post from another editor's talk page, you were warned by an admin to stop. It's of no concern to me whether you continue responding here or not-what is of concern is that your incivility/polemics and harassment directed at me do--with a formal I-Ban. We hope (talk) 01:36, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

So, you alter coments on their user page, you give them 3RR warnings on their talk page, you object to the removal of your blatant personal attack against them here, and Volvlogia is the one needing an I-Ban? I guess it's best to simply let the ArbCom request deal with this, but otherwise I see you as a much more likely target for a one-way interaction ban than Volvlogia. Fram (talk) 09:22, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I removed polemic against another editor from their user page. Don't worry-I'll be out of here when ArbCom is done; only here for that. We hope (talk) 12:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

But you are requesting an interaction ban when there has hardly been any interaction, and most or all of it has been initiated by you, like here. When they leave the mandatory ArbCom notice at another user's talk page, you are there 3 minutes later to canvass for an interaction ban. Basically, you are following Volvlogia around, stirring up trouble against them, and trying to make them look bad. Drawing attention to such behaviour during an ArbCom case where you are a party seems very unwise to me. Fram (talk) 12:53, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

As I said, don't worry about it as I'll be gone when ArbCom is over. We hope (talk) 13:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

...which is something you have claimed on your userpage since 2016, and repeated on your talk page mid 2017. And which of course doesn't give you a free pass to ask for an interaction ban against someone who has hardly interacted with you and where you are the party who follows the other around. Fram (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

There's a limit to the times when you can the benefit of the doubt and try again. That account is overdrawn now. Posting to my talk page to call my attention to a PA is hardly following someone around. Being pinged by that person is also hardly following someone around. We hope (talk) 13:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• "There's a limit to the times when you can the benefit of the doubt and try again. That account is overdrawn now." Indeed. Evidence of you following them around is given above. Evidence of you trying to rally others to cause trouble for them is given above. This I-ban request is a farce. Boomerang block applied (for 1 day only, since you had a clean block log). Fram (talk) 14:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Belated comment: Actually WP:POLEMIC is not at all triggered by a diff-pile intended for noticeboard use: "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." (emphasis in original). That was unmistakably the case here, given the ANI then the RfArb. While the editor clearly needs to obtain some additional clue (especially in the WP:KETTLE direction), and the snarky comment atop this diff-pile was uncalled-for, the obvious solution at that page would have been removing the snarky comment per WP:NPA and leaving it alone otherwise; there's clear precedent. It's not one editor's job to decide whether another editor's diffs are meaningful or being interpreted correctly; that's the collective job of the noticeboard to which they're taken. The community is actually quite tolerant of such diff-piles, and quite liberal in interpretation of "timely manner". See, e.g.: where a diff-pile just like this was retained because it was likely to be used at a noticeboard (later deleted in a second MfD after it was stale); another diff-pile kept despite the fact it was a years-running page that often wasn't actually being used for noticeboard purposes (it was later speedied by its author); where a freaky conspiracy-theory rant is kept despite attacking entire classes of WP editors and no possibility of serving any noticeboard or encyclopedic/collaboration purpose, while also being a page of a defunct user (compromised account) anyway; and so on.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Prior to Fram's block, I was in discussion with User:We hope about the suitability of their user page. Do others users agree that in its current state it contravenes the spirit of Remedy 5 of the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes, which has "All editors are reminded to maintain decorum and civility when engaged in discussions about infoboxes..."? As regards the block, I can't disagree with it but I might have given a warning/chance to retract first. --John (talk) 12:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

  The content of User:We hope's user page is fine. There is nothing indecorous or uncivil about it. You could maybe, if you're really really reaching, say "This user is against editors who cry wolf" is not that helpful, but honestly, I think we should all be against editors who cry wolf. That's certainly not indecorous or uncivil. fish&karate 12:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

  I was more concerned with the picture of the turd comparing it to an infobox. Normally speaking I am not prudish about this sort of thing but I think this may contravene the quoted section of the remedy. --John (talk) 12:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

  It's a polished golden turd, so I guess it's making an inference about valuing aesthetics over content. Crude, yes, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to make a fuss about it, and not particularly necessary. fish&karate

Sosnowiec article fiction

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Referring to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Poeticbent_reported_by_User:83.29.46.96_(Result:_Semi) and based on Talk:Sosnowiec#Silesian_Metropolis I demand taking down Sosnowiec article blockade and/or reverting fiction forced by User:Poeticbent here: .--83.10.5.144 (talk) 02:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Please approve the Freshdesk page

Hi admin,

I changed the freshdesk page with lots of citation. Please review and approve it.

Have a nice day!

• (Non-administrator comment) The Freshdesk page was last deleted and salted in December 2016. >SerialNumber54129 11:12, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) Hmm..David, per Draft:Freshdesk, why a request for un-salting ought to be made at AN? Salting is almost always done to get the content vetted through AFC and AFAIK, only an AFC reviewer/some long-standing-user can get it mainspaced.Also, IMO, DRV is a better venue!Winged Blades 11:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• @David.moreno72: just in case you don't know of this discussion about your recommendation. MPS1992 (talk) 20:35, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• yeah, this isn’t where requests for unprotection go. Normally you start with the protecting admin, (in this case @Joyous!: then go to the relvant section at WP:RFPP if they ae unavailable or you don’t like their reply. Beeblebrox (talk)
• Thanks everyone for the advice. Sorry for the confusion and your wasted time. I rarely have had to deal with salted pages that require administrator access. The entry at WP:SALT says 'Contributors wishing to re-create a salted title with more appropriate content should either contact an administrator (preferably the protecting administrator)', and I thought WP:AN was the best noticeboard to contact an administrator to the issue. Perhaps the WP:SALT page should be clarified. The following is my recommended change.

Contributors wishing to re-create a salted title with more appropriate content should either contact the protecting administrator, file a request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection, or use the deletion review process.

I will let the editor know of the correct course of action. Thank you David.moreno72 00:41, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Not enough Citations

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Hello, I am not an admin, but (on the English wikipedia) I found the page for a city in the Netherlands called Terneuzen, it bearly has any citations. can you maybe put a notice there, or find some citations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pigginator1 (talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• @Pigginator1: Sorry, misunderstood. I refer you to WP:BEBOLD, WP:SOFIXIT even  :) but I'll have a look. Incidentally, this is not the place to request content alterations: Talk:Terneuzen is the place for this particular article. Take care! >SerialNumber54129 14:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Abusive behavior and rule violations by user Muboshgu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello,

I live in the Charlottesville area and know several of the people related to the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. My friends and I have tried to go into several associated pages, including the ones for Wes Bellamy and Jason Kessler, to add context, citations and edits. However, whenever we add anything user Muboshgu comes in within an hour of the edit and undoes it. It's very frustrating because this personal clearly has agenda it's trying to enforce on these pages.

In the Muboshgu's user talk page you can see him/her saying things to other users he disagrees with like, "It wasn't a threat. It was a promise."

In the talk page on Jason Kessler, which Muboshgu seems to have created, he's described as using, "an angry and aggressive tone" with those who disagree. This is another page which Muboshgu serial unedits any changes he doesn't like. There are extremely defamatory statements on that page which shouldn't be allowed on the bio of a living person. For instance, Kessler has never claimed to be a "white nationalist" but the article describes him as such. It also lays blame for the post-rally car incident at his feet when this is something that has never been claimed in any criminal proceeding. In fact there are lawsuits involving whether the City of Charlottesville's stand down order was responsible for the chaos.

I'm asking for user Muboshgu to be sanctioned for abusive behavior and vandalism and be banned from editing pages related to Unite the Right and Charlottesville.

Regards,

Dominance Hierarchy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominance Hierarchy (talk • contribs) 21:42, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Please do not forum shop. You have already raised this at Misplaced Pages:Editor_assistance/Requests#Help_with_Disruptive_User. DuncanHill (talk) 21:46, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the EA thread. There were no replies there, and this seems like the better page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

See the Big Red Notice near the top of this page. You are required to notify the other user of this discussion. I have done it for you this time, please do not overlook this again. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:49, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Reply The only agendas I'm following are WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. Forum shopping with items taken out of context is not the best way to get the resolution you're working towards. You should've sent me a message on my talk page, where I could have elaborated beyond the character limit of an edit summary. Cheers. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• (e/c) All I see so far from looking at Muboshgu's edits to those pages are reverts of some POV edits of yours. You should discuss on the articles' talk pages if there is anything in them worth rewording and saving. If there are actual examples of abusive behavior, you need to provide diffs (read the link if you don't know what "diffs" are). He's an admin here, so calling it "vandalism" makes you look silly. I'm also concerned about your user name (although it provides useful insight) and your reference to "My friends and I" trying to edit something, but at this stage I'm not going to look into this further. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:59, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Dominance Hierarchy, editing on Misplaced Pages is more complex than most people think. You might be well served to read Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. — Maile (talk) 22:04, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Note that DH Dominance Hierarchy has now posted to BLPN, claiming to be Jason Kessler. Perhaps this thread should be closed too, and the one at BLPN left open to actually address any article problems? --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  When two editors with the initials "DH" have posted in a thread, it is helpful (and less surprising to at least one of them), to use their actual usernames instead of their undifferentiated initials. Thank you :) DuncanHill (talk) 22:35, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  ooops. sorry. fixed. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:40, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Blocking articles related to AFC U-23 Championship

Dear Staff,

I am a sysop of Vietnamese Misplaced Pages. There is a football match happening on Jan 27 2018, between Vietnam and Uzbekistan in AFC U23 Tournament. Therefore, a huge number of fans from Vietnam may come to English Misplaced Pages and vandalize many articles. I need you block (or semi-block) these articles:

• Ma Ning (referee) (the referee of the match)
• Ma Ning
• Vietnam national under-23 football team
• Park Hang-seo (the coach of Vietnam team)
• Nguyễn Công Phượng
• Lương Xuân Trường
• 2018 AFC U-23 Championship
• Hà Đức Chinh
• Nguyễn Quang Hải (footballer, born 1997)
• Bùi Tiến Dũng (footballer, born 1997)

Besides, I hope you follow up relevant articles. Thanks! Alphama (talk) 07:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Alphama: (Non-administrator comment) Pages are not preemptively protected. Sorry. !dave 07:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

In that case, it will be like this again. Alphama (talk) 08:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the heads up Alphama, if we start to encounter vandalism then we will act upon it. But not before it happens. I have watchlisted those articles. Cheers, fish&karate 12:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Community sanction block review and question about process

A couple days ago, admin Coffee blocked user Seraphim System (talk · contribs) as a remedy under the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL general sanctions. I'm not arguing with the block and I've already declined an unblock request on the user's talk page, but I have a question about proper procedure here.

I noticed today while reviewing the general sanctions page that there has been no notification to Seraphim System logged on the page. Coffee and several other users have argued on Seraphim System's talk page that she was adequately warned in the form of an editnotice on the article, banner on the article's talk page, and messages left on her user talk, and I declined her unblock request on that basis, but it seems nobody has ever used the proper sanction notice template nor logged a notification in the sanctions log. Therefore, the recently updated discretionary sanctions awareness criteria were not met. I'm very much not a fan of overturning good-faith blocks purely on technicalities, but is this block invalid? Ivanvector (/_Edits) 13:58, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: This was a community sanction. Not a discretionary sanction. They fall under entirely different rules. WP:AC/DS does not apply here. You should read what does apply here (and the authority for the block): WP:GS/SCW&ISIL#1RR: Editors who otherwise violate this 1RR restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.. You also should not have opened this thread without discussing this with me first. As you obviously did not know what you were talking about before coming here. I don't appreciate this at all, especially when you declined an unblock request without even knowing why the block was allowed/needed. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:08, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: Seriously familiarize yourself with WP:GS and the difference between that and WP:AC/DS. You've made me look like an idiot even though I did exactly what the community demands. I'm livid right now. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:10, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

GMG 14:14, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, the ISIL & Syrian War sanctions are community authorized ones, the awareness requirements of the Arbitration Committee authorized ones do not apply. I believe that Misplaced Pages:GS/SCW&ISIL is the procedure for the sanctions discussed here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 14:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

(ec) The provisions at WP:AC/DS#aware.aware don't apply as this is a community sanction and not arbitration-related discretionary sanctions. The text of the remedy in question (1RR) explicitly states that there is no requirement for an editor to be notified before action is taken. GoldenRing (talk) 14:15, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes. That pages states In addition a one revert rule, which does not require notice... TonyBallioni (talk) 14:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• I edit-conflicted with everyone above other than Coffee's first post. Misplaced Pages:General sanctions says under the heading "Process", subheading "Community sanctions": "ny editor may make another editor aware of the sanctions, and then log the notification," and "ull procedures for issuing notifications mirror those of Arbitration Committee sanctions, as described ". However I also see that the 1RR remedy on the community sanctions page says that it "does not require notice", and I hadn't seen that before so thank you for pointing it out. I guess my question then is not for you but for the community: is a discretionary sanction that applies whether or not a user is aware of it reasonable? Ivanvector (/_Edits) 14:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• The community came to that consensus about 1RR a long time ago, so I believe the answer to your question is yes. That's why as an administrator I had any authority to place the block: community consensus existed for it. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
• Ivanvector, the issue is that the user was aware in the normal sense of the term (and not the pseudo-legal way it is used in the AC/DS, etc.) because they had been warned about it specifically for the article in question. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that and not arguing that point, that diff of notification was central to my declining the unblock request. It was observed in discussion of the unblock request that our general sanctions are a bewildering labyrinth of confusing, arbitrary, and sometimes contradictory rules and procedures (my words) and this discussion isn't really helping with that. Now I find out there are "gotchas" like this where a user editing in good faith is simply expected to be aware of the restrictions in place when they conflict with standard best practice (3RR is policy) at peril of being blocked without warning. This is not good. There's nothing about Coffee's block that I can argue with and I'm really not meaning to, but this situation is not good. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 14:37, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I think that is a fair point, especially given the recent ARCA on this. I think the block should stand though, because in this case the user was undoubtably aware, even though not required to be. I also think one of the issues is that everyone knows about the templates for AC/DS but not GS, which in some ways would make 1RR unenforceable if there was such a strict requirement. Perhaps a simpler version of the awareness criteria could be adopted for 1RR. Something like For 1RR, users must be notified that pages are under that restriction on their talk page. Notifying the user with the awareness template is preferred, but is not required. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah the GS wording seems much more confusing than DS; seems better to either make it follow with DS procedure or IAR it and somehow make it a DS. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:49, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• Hatting the above, as it was going off-topic in a rather quick fashion. Carry on. Primefac (talk) 15:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
• Thanks everyone, you've given me some points to think about. Apologies to Coffee for initially framing my query in a way that probably contributed negatively to an already stressful situation exacerbated by my own ignorance, but thanks for your insight nonetheless. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
  • @Ivanvector: And my apologies for being so quick tempered about being brought here for no good reason. I'm sure now that you can see why I feel very attacked everytime a thread like this opens though... several people out there want my bit removed (just because they've been sanctioned by, or know someone who has been sanctioned by me). No one ever gives two shits about my emotions here, and practically no one realizes I'm capable of change. @Volunteer Marek: is the only person I can truly point to who gave me the opportunity to improve, and we've had a decent working relationship ever since. Why can't everyone stop treating me like this is 2009? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

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