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Cheema Sahib

Please do not make deletions, and statements like, “Cheema were never Hindus,There are no Hindu Cheemas. They were Buddhists.”

By you making these half baked statements, you are creating an unnecessary problem.

The facts are the Jats( howsoever you spell the name) have been spread all over from India upto and including central Asia, at least.

Over the last few thousand years, the Jats have followed various beliefs- initially Vedic, then Buddhist, Hinduism, Jain, Sikh.

When Islam came about and entered the Indian subcontinent, some also converted to Islam.

In other words they followed a variety of beliefs.

On the relationship to Hindusim:

As one example: Shiv(a) worship was widely prevalent in Bactria. The 'Kushans' Emperor Kaniska's coins depict this quite clearly. The Kushans are Jats.

Shiv(a) is a Hindu deity.

The Kushan period is dated to circa 200 BCE on.

We find the Vedic influence, spread into and upto the Central Asia- Bactria, Oxus, valley, Iran, Iraq. The Vedic period is traced back to 2500 BCE.

There is plenty of more evidence

Unless the 'Cheema' clan came with the Muslim Arabs, they would have followed the religions that existed in the NW India. Islam does not enter NW India until the 10th century or so.

If you wish to learn more about Jats, then try and go to a history discussion forum, dedicated to Jat History, like

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

I am one the moderators there.

You are welcome to join, if you wish

Also try and read what is on the discussion page of the Cheema article

Ravi Chaudhary 16:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Transferred from ravi Chaudhary page

OK do you know any Cheema Hindus? you're just trying to imply that the Cheema clan also followed Hinduism when this is far form the truth, infact they were opposed to Hindus. This is an encyclopedia its supposed to document historical facts. We know there are Cheema Sikhs, and Cheema Muslims. We haven't and don't know about any Cheema Hindus and its pretty obvious why. Until you can provide evidence of Cheema Hindus the article is staying as it is. The Cheemas before Islam followed Buddhism, and then some converted to Islam, when they helped Muhammad bin Qasim conquer Hindu strong holds, and the main reason was the Cheema were being oppressed by the Hindu's and always opposed them and when the Arabs came they had the perfect opportunity to make strong alliances with the Muslim Arabs. Infact Jatt (Buddhist) a physician treated the prophet Mohammed's wife Aisha when she was not well, its documented by early Arab chroniclers. So the Jatts knew about Islam way before c. 695, many even settled in Madina as that was the center of trade at the time. So the Jatts were familiar with Islam, Arabs and their great conquest they were impressed and and converted to Islam out of free will, because they loved the concept of Islamic Jihad and how Muslims beat army's 3 times (Battle of Badr) their size so much.

--Street Scholar 11:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr Cheema

Are you suggesting the Cheema clan came to India with the Arabs?

If they were Buddhists before, do you have any evidence for the same?

There are plenty of similarities between Buddhist concepts and Vedic/Hindu concepts. Along with Jainism, they have always existed side by side, and intertwined with each other.

Have you studied any aspects of Buddhism?

Does your clan have any follow any Buddhist norms today?

Sindh where the first Muslim Arab/Indan wars occured, was a mix of Jats and non jats. They all followed various beliefs- Buddhism, Vedic, Jain, Hindu.

If your clan joined Mir Qasim( of free will or not) to fight the Indians( circa 700 CE) they were fighting fellow Jats, - who were Buddhists too, destroying their universities, and vihars( monasteries)- Vallabhipur, and Taxila( Takshashila) being two good exampples.

Is your Islamic identity getting the better of you?

You do need to sort your concepts out.

Let us keep this discussion on your page, I have put your page on watch.

If you wish to go deeper, I suggest you discuss this on the Jathistory group. That is what that forum is for, for serious discussion of Jat history.

Regards

Ravi Chaudhary 14:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Request

It was I who nominated the template Castes and Tribes of the Punjab. Some idiot has been fighting a revert war with me throughout the day today. The point on which his record is struck is that Abhira, Ahir, Gujjar, Gurjara, Kamboj, Kamboja, Khasa should come under the category of "Surviviung Kshatriya Tribes". My only objection is that if this happens then people belonging to other groups such as Khatris and Rajputs will also ask to be grouped under the Kshatriya category. This in turn could lead to a caste war, the type of which we saw on the Khatri and Rajput pages. Thus I am only proposing that "Surviving Ancient Kshatriya tribes" be changed to just "Ancient tribes". But the other person refuses to listen. He says that it should be written as he desires or the template should be deleted. I agreed to delete. That is why I nominated the article for deletion. I even wrote the reason at the bottom of that particular version:"Template is divisive and inflammatory."

Please tell me your view. Rajatjghai 17:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits, such as those you made to women, are considered vandalism as you have been warned about before. If you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the hard work of others. Thanks.

Islamic Barnstar Award

Please offer your opinion, vote, or whatever about your choice for the image to be used with the Islamic Barnstar Award at the Barnstar proposals page. Although there is consensus for the concept of an Islamic Barnstar Award, some editors would like to change the image for the award. I was just thinking you should be aware of this discussion because you have contributed to Islamic-related articles, received the Islamic Barnstar Award, or have contributed to the Islam-related Wikiprojects, etc.--JuanMuslim 03:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Info on Islamophobic group

Hello,

What follows are the thoughts, expressed in their own words, and in the 'protest signs', of the obscure, very small, but very vocal 'activist group' known as "Protest Warrior".

"What's becoming clear is how the religion of Islam is addicted to war and mayhem. Not a radical minority, not a rogue sect, but its very essence is about submission and sacrifice and proving your worth by worshipping death in this life to gain a paradise of orgies and drunkenness. Their entire history is of warfare, and any accomplishments of their so-called Golden Age has been proven to be merely parasitic off the cultures they've conquered and reduced to dhimmi servitude. That every country under sharia is corrupt, belligerent, desolate and barbaric obviously gives them no pause, except to constantly drive them into further psychotic rage as they refuse to ever accept any responsibility for their conditions. They are akin to the powers in Orwell's 1984; there must always be an enemy. It's no surprise that women are treated like property in these countries as that's the only way Muslim men can feed their egos, to dominate others rather than ever actually produce something."

Kfir Alfia and Alan Lipton, founders of "Protest Warrior"

Their 'protest signs'...

Signs

I thought you might be interested in this group's sentiments. They are currently very actively editing their own article on Wiki and there is a lot of 'group think'. Perhaps you might want to become involved in the editing and discussion process on that page. If you do, please don't vandalize, and try to remain civil. Should you not want to involve youself, please forgive my intrusion.

Protest Warrior

Protest Warrior Discussion

NBGPWS 09:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Images

When uploading images, please follow the rules written in big letters on the upload page. Copyrights are not a joke. Mukadderat 16:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I am talking about Image:Normaswordsi.jpg. Do you really want it deleted? If you made the photo yourself, please write so. Mukadderat 16:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

And also Image:Baktar Shikan ATGM.jpg It is copyrighted by PakistaniDefence.com . Are you PakistaniDefence? Mukadderat 16:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

If you think I am funny with you, please read wikipedia:Copyrights and wikipedia:Image copyright tags for more fun. Mukadderat 16:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

sword pics

The pictures of the swords, are they from Topkapi museum? --Irishpunktom\ 17:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Fake Sword

Probably bought at a flea market now Muhammads own sword? I dont think so! Three people now asking you, so far NO answers! Where is the picture from and how are you knowing its Muhammads?Opiner 07:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Civility

Accusing other users like Street Scholar is disrespectful and not civil. They can be considered a personal attack. Such accusations damage your own reputation and also create conflicts. I would request you to be more respectful concerning other users' edits that you find biased or in any other way unpleasant. Mar de Sin 19:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Oops sorry, wrong person! Mar de Sin 19:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Sexism

A per this diff, please be aware that such comments have no place on wikipedia, being as they are derogatory and offensive.

Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Crimsone 20:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• As per WP:ANI, has been resolved and can be considered closed. Assalaamu' Alaykum, --Crimsone

Disruption

I had planned to suggest you (and everyone else) avoid commenting on other people as individuals, whether about their gender, ethnicity, or religion. I was going to say, "comment on content, not on other people." But I am afraid this is over the top. Unless you are prepared to work on an equal footing with everyone who choses to edit here, then Misplaced Pages is not the place for you. Your remarks go beyond incivility into disruption, and if you continue to make them it may be necessary to suspend your editing privileges. Tom Harrison 16:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Still a bit Dubious

I will check the references. If I find that they don;t exist and/or they have been mis-cited then I will begin RfA process accordingly.Hkelkar 16:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. The Centre of "Islamic Studies" is obviously partisan and so not entirely reliable. If my University library attests to the existence and/or availability of the ref then good. Else, I wil get an affidavit from the chief librarian that the references cited are fake and submit it as evidence in the RfA.Hkelkar 16:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, not unlike the racist Muslim Caste system, eh? (Ashraf/Ajlaf, Sayyid, Mojahir,Quomiyat, Biradari etc.). I still intend to file an RfA on account of the fact that I don't trust the veracity of the "refs".Hkelkar 16:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The "scholarly" nature remains to be established.Hkelkar 16:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the personal attack. Now I have all that I need.Hkelkar 16:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and yes, there is a caste system in Islam per the Fatwa-i-Jahandari http://www.anti-caste.org/muslim_question/caste/bhatty_article.html.Hkelkar 16:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

And you know where the personal attack happened. You have been warned by admins before (see sections above) and action will be taken in accordance to your past behaviour.16:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

here making threats.

here against another user.

here earlier also.Hkelkar 16:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

As for the Muslim Caste system, the Fatwa-i-Jahandari has nothing to do with Hinduism as it was written by an Islamic Cleric Ziauddin al-Barani in a Muslim dominated area (Lahore). Plus, the al-Akhdham in Yemen (the Yemenese untouchables) are in a Muslim country not connected to Hinduism at all. Same with the Janjaweed in Sudan and the Abyssinian white muslims against the Abyssinian black Muslims.

Your accusations against Street Scholar seem a bit exaggerated, from the diffs that i can see. What threat? Mar de Sin 18:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.yemenmirror.com/index.php?action=showDetails&id=136

http://www.yementimes.com/99/iss01/l&d.htm

Dirty little secret, eh? Hkelkar 16:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

This is definitely a personal attack through an implied threat and a violation of many wikipedia policies such as WP:OWN and WP:NPA and a defensive response to a clear violation of WP:Reliable Sources, as I'm sure many admins will agree.Hkelkar 17:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Removing the tags that illustrate the partisanship and Dubious scholarly nature of a reference does not take away the facts. I have just emailed my university librarian who will attest that one of your two references do not exist, except in a yahoogroups webpage (hardly "Peer Reviewed"). As to the other ("A History of the Jats sorry, mistake I meant the UT Thakkur reference"). I see a copy in the library and I will read to verify if you are lying about the edits or not.Hkelkar 17:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

the disputed book on Talk:Cheema

I'd like to know if there's another way of obtaining the book you linked at Yahoo! Groups other than through that group. Could you let me know? - Che Nuevara 05:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, its not one file, the book is loads of sections in the files section on yahoo groups. They are translated works and are hard to find otherwise. Furthermore, some are in Hindi which you have to install fonts on your computer to read them. It would be best if you sign up or if you get get hold of the following books which are available more easily:

The point is that Yahoo! Groups is not a reliable outside publisher. The problem isn't the readability of the documents, it's the verifiability of them as authentic. See the problem? - Che Nuevara 15:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Discuss only content

In disputes on Misplaced Pages, discuss only the content of the article and how to improve the article. Do not make accusations or derogatory comments about other editors. —Centrx→talk • 18:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:521121427 m.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:521121427 m.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

Pakistan Hackerz Club

I deleted it because it had been tagged for speedy deletion as being a non-notable group. While I'm still not convinced of the group's notability, I have restored the article. -- Merope 17:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a clear distinction between a notable event and notable people. The hacking of the site was notable; the people doing it are not. There are multiple non-trivial articles about the hacking, but not about the group. I think that the July 7 London bombings were notable, but the people who carried them out weren't. But this is just my opinion. I'll restore the other article.

Please do not make personal attacks (and, yes, misogynist statements to a woman are personal attacks). The GForce Pakistan article has no assertion of notability--it just says they're a group of eight hackers. Websites are not typically considered a reliable source, and so the groups being mentioned on them is not relevant. There are lots of websites that mention gaming clans, fanfiction, and bloggers, but that doesn't automatically make those things notable. You should re-read WP:BIO for an explanation of the notability of people. I will not restore that one as it clearly falls into WP:CSD#A7; you can take it to deletion review if you disagree. -- Merope 18:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Saying that a woman is always responsible for perpetuating ignorance is misogynistic--it shows that you don't respect women as equals. Characterizing them as shallow and illogical further confirms my attribution. Saying that you think I'm spreading ignorance because I'm a woman is a personal attack. You've had previous warnings about not being respectful towards other editors; please review WP:NPA (particularly the part that says "racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor" constitute a personal attack) and desist making such attacks. Users who engage in such attacks can be blocked from editing. -- Merope 18:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not a woman, but I'm certain according to Misplaced Pages policy edits like these are personal attacks. Please do not make them on Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)