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Revision as of 11:58, 25 February 2018 editPetter Bøckman (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users8,709 edits →The political motivation" - what it meant, and some notes of the 1500 species← Previous edit Revision as of 11:58, 25 February 2018 edit undoМиша Карелин (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users910 edits →War of Revisions Миша КарелинNext edit →
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*Well, you added that paragraph recently. The User {{u|Ravenswing}} , but you brought it back again. I guess this is again is a result of your misunderstanding of the quote. Lets see what native English speakers whould tell us about it. ] (]) 11:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC) *Well, you added that paragraph recently. The User {{u|Ravenswing}} , but you brought it back again. I guess this is again is a result of your misunderstanding of the quote. Lets see what native English speakers whould tell us about it. ] (]) 11:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
**why understand the quote? I wrote it as it did in the source? Are you laughing at me and other editors? Cancel your vandalism. Do not stop working for those who read the sources. ] (]) 11:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC) **why understand the quote? I wrote it as it did in the source? Are you laughing at me and other editors? Cancel your vandalism. Do not stop working for those who read the sources. ] (]) 11:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
***"Why understand the quote" ?? Because this is not an aphorism or proverb. If you are writing something from a source, it should not be taken '''out of context'''. He did not mean that the homosexuality of the orangutans was ONLY twice observed '''at all'''. He meant something completely different. By the way, I am repeating again: the first correction was made not by me, but by {{u|Ravenswing}}. So the only one who is "laughing at me and other editors", is you. ] (]) 11:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

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In Captivity or In the Wild

This article fails to specify when these behaviors have been observed only in captivity or if they have also be observed in the wild. Without this distinction the article is of little value at best and deceitful at worst, because it is to be expected that animals will dramatically alter their behavior under the conditions of captivity.

The scientific value of mentioning 1500 species of animals and homosexual behavior

To the best of my knowledge the “1500” number was coined by Petter Bøckman, work as a ”jack of all trades” at the museums school service, who got inspired by the book of a gay linguist Bagemihl, published by a publishing company devoted to romance and fantasy novels, and edited by “Stonewall inn” — the famous gay bar. No scientific publication I have come across cites this number. Bagemihl mentions in his book “more than 450 species”, of which about 100 are insects and worms, whose same sex behavior happens due to errors in identification of a partner because of disability or traces of female pheromones of on male’s cuticle. Birds in same-sex relationship also do not engage in sexual activity, for example, geese—according to Lorenz— mate only with females. Lorenz also describes how primates simulate coital movements as display of dominance. It has no sexual meaning or sexual motivation whatsoever. In fact, none of the species in nature actually engage in penetrative homosexual activity. We are talking about same sex behavior that in nearly all cases has no sexual context . As wrote Frank Beach: “I don't know any authenticated instance of males or females in the animal world preferring a homosexual partner. There is mounting of males by males, but without intromission of the penis or climax. There's also mounting of females by female (and makes by females) I'm not even sure we should call mounting sexual.” In addition, cannibalism, “pedophilia”, “coprophagy”, “necrophilia” are usual in the animal world, and occur in a much larger number of species, and are much more common. I regard the mention of 1500 species with homosexual behavior as manipulative and misleading, that only reflects the bias of the author. Therefore I suggest to remove this unsubstantiated and misinforming number and use the number of species whose same-sex behaviour has been documented, that is about 450. Путеец (talk) 13:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you that the article is unclear and seems to pit the numbers 450 and 1500 against each other, but the sources attached to the sentence citing 1500 seem to consistently use the word "observed", while the 450 number's references use "documented". Perhaps you haven't come across this figure in literature because they're simply instances of observed behavior, and haven't been published (which is what I think the distinction is between observed and. documented). Also, this is just any behavior and not specifically sex. Do we have reason to distrust the University of Oslo's exhibition which utilized the number in 2006? You haven't provided any sources which might discredit this claim, so I don't think the sentence should be removed just yet. I don't know who Joan Rugganger or Lorenz or Frank Beach are. Rhinopias (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
I think that this edit gives less credibility to the number. Rhinopias (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
The authors of numbers 450 and 1500 are not neutral. Путеец (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Something went wrong with the editing. Путеец (talk) 19:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@Rhinopias: You deleted the statements of biologists, but left a quote from a linguist who does not have a special education. Please return this text . Путеец (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Feel free to remove any of the quotes from the lead. I removed your contributions with that edit of mine for two reasons. One, your text In all other animal species, with the exception of humans, individuals who participate in same-sex sexual interactions are also involved in heterosexuals is a mischaracterization of the reference you used, Bailey et al.. On pages 68–69: "Exclusive same-sex sexual orientation across the life course is, however, extremely rare among animals …" (emphasis mine). This is not what you wrote.
Two, the lead section of this article is already a mess. The purpose of the section is to be "an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents", not to be a place for many detailed quotes or information not present in the body of the article. Subsections could be added to #Research. I only removed the content that you added and did not purposefully evaluate other content in the section. Rhinopias (talk) 19:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Bailey et al. says: "Approximately 6% to 10% of rams in these domestic breeds choose to court and mount other rams, but never ewes, when given a choice (Roselli, Larkin, Resko, Stellflug, & Stormshak, 2004). During some mounts between rams, penile-anal intromission and ejaculation occurs (Perkins & Fitzgerald, 1997). In all other animal species, with the exception of humans, individu-als that engage in same-sex genital interactions engage in heterosexual ones as well." Путеец (talk) 20:10, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
My mistake, so you added a copyright violation not a misinterpretation.
I don't think the sentence is very clear; some content in #Research contradicts the statement that Bailey et al. make of all "individuals" besides individuals of the few species specified. Regardless of that being a very large statement for the authors to make without directly attributing any other published work, all of this doesn't belong in the lead. A quick summary (such as "Rarely do non-human animals engage solely in homosexual behavior") is all that is warranted. The research on this particular aspect of homosexual behavior in non-human animals can be expanded in the body of the article. Rhinopias (talk) 20:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

No scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals. Here is the news of the exposition in the scientific source (Nature). About 500 species are mentioned. The number 1500 was used for political and propaganda purposes, as they say in the very news of BBC, where the number 1500 was first published. "An American commentator said it was an example of "propaganda invading the scientific world". Petter Bockman, a zoologist who helped put the show together, admitted that "there is a political motive"." All references that contain this number (1500) are not scientific and should be deleted. Путеец (talk) 07:53, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

@Rhinopias: Help with this situation until it grew into a world war of revisions. Путеец (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Dont worry. Such called " world war of revisions" will be will be stopped by blocks. Especially after admins whould see your Modus operandi. For example, you just accused very famous Western medias in "political propaganda" - . We are lucky you did not use the term of Russian law - "propaganda of homosexualism". M.Karelin (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • All self-respecting media, when making a mistake, make an announcement. I think after reading this page they will make a refutation. See scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals Путеец (talk) 16:08, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Help! Путеец (talk) 20:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Regarding this, WP:Pings only work with a new signature. Remember to sign your posts. As for this dispute, I don't have the time to help out with this. But I will state now that mental disorders do not apply to non-human animals. Not truly. Despite the term pedophilia sometimes being misused to apply to non-human animals, it is a human disorder. There are cases of non-human adults being sexual with non-human juveniles, but that does not make it pedophilia. We have no idea what is going on in the minds of non-human animals. Furthermore, even in the case of humans, child sexual abuse is not the same thing as pedophilia. When it comes to cannibalism, coprophagy and necrophilia, those are all acts that apply to humans and non-human animals. And something like necrophilia can be considered a disorder when applied to humans. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
For some information on mental disorders regarding non-human animals, see Mental disorder#Other animals. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:39, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I actually asked for help with the deletion of false information about 1500 species of animals, and with the opponent who is waging a war of revisions. Путеец (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I see that you asked me to help. I linked to it, and signed your post for you. You also stated above, "In addition, cannibalism, 'pedophilia', 'coprophagy', 'necrophilia' are usual in the animal world, and occur in a much larger number of species, and are much more common." I noted that I don't have the time to get involved with all of this. But since I saw the topic of disorders mixed in, I decided to comment on that. Disorders have been studied in relation to non-human animals, but they usually are not applied to non-human animals and some researchers have crafted different models for them due to problems with associating human disorders with non-human animals. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:59, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
"homosexuality has been observed in over 1,500 species" - disinformation without scientific confirmation! Why is she in the article? ! Путеец (talk) 22:06, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Look at the sources - it is not a disinformation. And the info was given with the name reference, is not it enough ?? M.Karelin (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
No scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals. This is the erroneous opinion of a jack of all trades helping to make an exhibition. Путеец (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Help me with editing

I have collected extensive material on the topic, I will gradually add. But English is not native to me. I can not qualitatively retell the text of the quote. I ask you to correct my spelling, and if possible, instead of quoting, I should retell the quoted one. Путеец (talk) 07:33, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Modus operandi of the User:Путеец

User:Путеец, DO NOT DELETE the information from the article (escpecially from the intro) just because you dont like it. If the info in this artcle existe for month and years, you can NOT delete it without disscussion, especially if there is an objection against such removing an info. M.Karelin (talk) 10:02, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I noticed that you added other sources, such as comedy video authors. Scientific sources such as Nature, published 500. Путеец (talk) 10:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Thats why it is written - Other sources describe. If this was the only numbers in the Intro, I d remove it, but now its just show, that there are other sources too, and there is NO contradiction - one researcher can found 500 species, the other one - 1500. There is NO contradiction. M.Karelin (talk) 11:06, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

"there is a political motive"

Lets discuss here what does it mena - "there is a political motive". I hope native English speaking editors will help us. M.Karelin (talk) 10:26, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Путеец, I've already explained to you that the 1500 number seems to be referred to as observed and not documented, which is implying that this is not referring to published material. (The BBC article literally has: It says homosexuality has been observed among 1,500 species, and that in 500 of those it is well documented.) Though articles on Misplaced Pages which deal with scientific topics should be rigorously scientifically accurate, Misplaced Pages articles do not require scientific literature to cite information. Your reason for removing this information is not sufficient, seeming to be just "I don't like it". Experts in the field saying that the number exists is something that Misplaced Pages can use; it does not need to be published in a journal. Websites or news outlets (such as the ones that Миша Карелин mentioned, used for this information) may be good secondary or tertiary sources, and are just as reliable.

Second, I am not sure if details surrounding the quote from the BBC article quote (there is a political motive) are lost on you because of your stated English abilities, or you just did not read further because you feel that fits your agenda, but that's not what Petter Bockman (a zoologist, an expert in the field) is saying. After that quote from him is this: "In Norway there was a desire among publicly funded museums to be 'deliverers of truth' and to 'put on display controversial subjects, things that are not said and are swept under the carpet'." Meaning that this information is being used by museums to involve themselves in political discussions, which should not at all be interpreted as they're making up numbers for political reasons. Also, I'm confused how you seem to be ignoring that this exhibition was hosted by a university, which makes it seem pretty academic in nature to me. Rhinopias (talk) 22:54, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

No scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals. ] This is the erroneous opinion of a jack of all trades helping to make an exhibition. All that scientists observe, they publish in peer-reviewed publications. This erroneous private opinion of one person who himself did not observe 1500 species of animals, and could not read this information anywhere. He invented it. No one has observed 1,500 species of animals with homosexual behavior. Путеец (talk) 23:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
You DO NOT understand one simple thing: the criterias of sources in en wiki and in ru wiki are not the same. ONCE AGAIN READ ALL THE TEXT WRITTEN ABOVE !!!! M.Karelin (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Lying should not be published as a statement of truth. Путеец (talk) 23:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Its not lying. Once again - READ THE WHOLE TEXT, especially the second paragraph and the very last sentence !! M.Karelin (talk) 23:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Give me a link to a list of 1500 species animals with homosexual behavior Путеец (talk) 23:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
We have many sources (acceptable in en-wiki) about that number, and besides, as it was written above, this exhibition was hosted by a university, which makes it seem pretty academic in nature. We have to trust the sources, and no one is obligated to give you any lists. M.Karelin (talk) 23:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Alright, I'm coming in as a neutral editor following Путеец's complaint about this dispute at the Teahouse, and I've got some observations after reading through the links presented.

    First off, the "observed" vs "documented" language seems quite clear, and the reliable sources quoted don't claim otherwise. I'm not quite sure what the problem is there.

    Secondly, Путеец is plainly misinterpreting cites to suit his own argument. That a scientist feels there's a "political" purpose to holding an exhibition demonstrating homosexuality in the animal kingdom doesn't by definition discredit the science involved in its evidence, or the conclusions drawn from that evidence.

    Thirdly, I'm likewise concerned that Путеец is going out of his way to demonize scientists and institutions who say things he doesn't like, but is quite sloppy about his own methodology. I don't place much credence, for instance, in some unnamed "American commentator" decrying this exhibition as "propaganda" -- the anti-science bent of the American conservative media is well known and longstanding, and while you can certainly come up with any number of cites from the Limbaughs, Becks and Coulters of the world pretty much calling any fact their corporate masters disapprove of as "liberal propaganda," that's far from scientific fact itself. Then we move right on to Путеец's insistence that failure of the search term ""1500+species"+animals+homosexual" to produce hits on the National Institute of Health (???) website is indicative of anything at all. If you want to dispute an assertion made by several reliable sources, you need to have solid, reliable sources stating that the assertion is false, not a wild flight of fancy that a failure of a search term "proves" anything. Путеец hasn't done that.

    Finally, I have to ask Путеец: why does this bother you so much? At the level worst, this number is an exaggeration, not a "lie." You've been doing some serious edit warring and forum shopping here, and the invective seems far out of proportion to the putative harm that might be done. Ravenswing 08:52, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Any exaggeration without justification, capable of influencing social life or politics is political. Especially this exhibition was supported by the government. Remember the Colin Powell test tube. Путеец (talk) 08:57, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • You are not commenting on the topic that I raised. I regard the mention of 1500 species with homosexual behavior as manipulative and misleading, that only reflects the bias of the author. Ravenswing please see this discussion Путеец (talk) 09:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, you haven't commented on a number of the topics I raised, but that's beside the point, because I did in fact comment on that particular topic. I said, and I quote, "If you want to dispute an assertion made by several reliable sources, you need to have solid, reliable sources stating that the assertion is false, not a wild flight of fancy that a failure of a search term "proves" anything." You haven't done that; you've just stated that you find the statement misleading, manipulative and biased. On the English Misplaced Pages, your private unsupported belief (or, as to that, mine or anyone else's) is just not good enough to to overturn what is so far unanimous consensus against your position. Ravenswing 10:14, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

The political motivation" - what it meant, and some notes of the 1500 species

Hallo people!

As I am the originator of the "political motivation" I'd like to give some context. The quote is from an English translation of an interview I gave to "Apollon", an university paper for the University of Oslo mostly reporting on research news, original article on-line here. The comment was aimed at the (at the time) well known initiative Archive, Library and Museum Development (abr. ABMU in Norwegian), a governmental committee to give grants to revitalize the usually somewhat dusty world of archives, libaries and museums. This initiative ran for a handful of years, and having largely achieved it's objectives is now disbanded.

The idea behind the initiative was to better engage these institutions in the popular debate by encourage them to comment on or exhibit on their knowledge on controversial subjects. This lead to various institutions publishing books or making exhibits on subjects like the history of Romani people in Norway, the lives of collaborators during the 2nd World War, asylums and orphanages and so on. The contribution of the Natural History Museum at the University of Oslo where I work was the Against Nature? exhibition, on homosexuality among animals. At the time, it ended up being the by far most visible and most cited of all the ABMU initiatives. The political comment was an acknowledgement to the grant we received from ABMU helping financing the exhibition (the grant covered about 1/3 of the cost if I remember correctly).

My comment on the "political motive" is a reference to the ABMU. We made the exhibit as our contribution to exhibit knowledge on controversial topics. It was not a reaction to persecution by anyone at the museum, nor an attempt as pontificating about politics. We very conspicuously avoided any comments on politics, focusing instead on what animals engage in homosexual behaviour and in the cases where function known why. While the original exhibition stuck strictly to what we know animals are up to, a more politicized version was later shown in Stockholm, Sweden as "Rainbow Animals". You'll have to ask the Swedes about that one, I was not involved.

I'm sorry if this wasn't quite the conspiracy you were after.

The 1500 species bandied about is the tally on animals species where "non-reproductive" sex is known, compiled by Bruce Bagemihl from his book Biologival exuberance, which was the most thorough survey of homosexual behaviour in animals at the time. Most of this tally is based on reports of single or just a handful of observation, and is not well understood. About 500 of them are however larger or well known species (mostly mammals and birds) where we have a fairly decent idea of the frequency and/or social function of same-sex mating. Most of these species are covered in this article. The numbers are just reporting on the state of knowledge at the time, nothing more. I quite enjoyed bandying these numbers about at the time in interviews, as they are nice, memorable numbers and have good "shock value" showing we're not dealing with just a handful of queer cats and dogs.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity at the wording. Petter Bøckman (talk) 11:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Petter Bøckman Bagemihl mentions in his book “more than 450 species”. Do you have the rest of the list? ~1000 species? Путеец (talk) 11:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

It's been a few years, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow at work. Basically it's a whole species appendix at the back of Bagemihls book. If I remember correctly, it includes a few cases of animals with obvious hormonal disturbances like "perruque deer" who sometimes try to mate with males, single observations (there's a blue-ring octopus and a woodpecker that has only been observed mating in the wild once, bot observations was of mating between two males) and a few where mating associated behaviour (displaying, necking and similar) were observed, but not the actual mating. This is the reason I stick rather strictly to the term "exhibiting homosexual behaviour", rather than claiming an animal is gay. Petter Bøckman (talk) 11:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

War of Revisions Миша Карелин

Миша Карелин You started the war of revisions, and distorted the quote to Fox. Bring her back. Full cite: "Homosexual behavior was observed two times: once at Suaq Balimbing and once at Ketambe. Both interactions were between males. The homosexual inter-action at Suaq Balimbing occurred between males that, based on both physical (body size, dark eyelids and palms) and behavioral (avoidance of flanged males, forced copulations with adult females) characteristics, were classified as repro-ductively mature, developmentally arrested subadults . The single interaction at Ketambe involved two adolescents." Путеец (talk) 11:25, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Well, you added that paragraph recently. The User Ravenswing made a correction, but you brought it back again. I guess this is again is a result of your misunderstanding of the quote. Lets see what native English speakers whould tell us about it. M.Karelin (talk) 11:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
    • why understand the quote? I wrote it as it did in the source? Are you laughing at me and other editors? Cancel your vandalism. Do not stop working for those who read the sources. Путеец (talk) 11:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
      • "Why understand the quote" ?? Because this is not an aphorism or proverb. If you are writing something from a source, it should not be taken out of context. He did not mean that the homosexuality of the orangutans was ONLY twice observed at all. He meant something completely different. By the way, I am repeating again: the first correction was made not by me, but by Ravenswing. So the only one who is "laughing at me and other editors", is you. M.Karelin (talk) 11:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
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