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Revision as of 08:21, 2 March 2018 editПутеец (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users874 edits →Mouse← Previous edit Revision as of 08:42, 2 March 2018 edit undoМиша Карелин (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users910 edits →MouseNext edit →
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*****"''Perhaps you are trying to create a section on mice in order to hide information about the social causes of homosuistic behavior.''" - first of all I d suggest you ], before judging my actions. Second, I did not try to hide anything, read more carefully what did I write above, I just to write the same info in "Sheeps" section (because there is a contradictions of whats is written in sources). If I tried "to hide something" I would not suggest you that. As of mice, I just noticed that there are several sources describing homosexual behaviour of mice, but we dont have a defferent section about them. Thats why i suggested to create a different section about them. As you see, everything is much simpler than you think. ] (]) 08:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC) *****"''Perhaps you are trying to create a section on mice in order to hide information about the social causes of homosuistic behavior.''" - first of all I d suggest you ], before judging my actions. Second, I did not try to hide anything, read more carefully what did I write above, I just to write the same info in "Sheeps" section (because there is a contradictions of whats is written in sources). If I tried "to hide something" I would not suggest you that. As of mice, I just noticed that there are several sources describing homosexual behaviour of mice, but we dont have a defferent section about them. Thats why i suggested to create a different section about them. As you see, everything is much simpler than you think. ] (]) 08:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
******Do it, please, instead of talking. The section on the social causes of homosexuality will be written in any case on the basis of a huge number of other sources related to mice and rams, and not associated with them. For example, this is described in Fox. I wait when you create a section about mice to join the work. --] (]) 08:21, 2 March 2018 (UTC) ******Do it, please, instead of talking. The section on the social causes of homosexuality will be written in any case on the basis of a huge number of other sources related to mice and rams, and not associated with them. For example, this is described in Fox. I wait when you create a section about mice to join the work. --] (]) 08:21, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
*******Again I ask you to calm down, this style of converstaion will not create a normal "work space". If my suggestion will be supported, we ll discuss details with colleagues about the section. '''I want to remind you''', that the Administrator on his talk page suggested you to '''gain consensus''' of your edits, before making changes in the article. Since many of your edits are very controversial, I d suggest you the same: before making a big edits, write here a draft of it, and also mention where exactly you want to add it. Then the draft will be editied and amended, after which you can put it in the article. That will be the best option to avoid those kind of situations. Believe me, the administrator gave you a good advice. ] (]) 08:41, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

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In Captivity or In the Wild

This article fails to specify when these behaviors have been observed only in captivity or if they have also be observed in the wild. Without this distinction the article is of little value at best and deceitful at worst, because it is to be expected that animals will dramatically alter their behavior under the conditions of captivity.

The scientific value of mentioning 1500 species of animals and homosexual behavior

To the best of my knowledge the “1500” number was coined by Petter Bøckman, work as a ”jack of all trades” at the museums school service, who got inspired by the book of a gay linguist Bagemihl, published by a publishing company devoted to romance and fantasy novels, and edited by “Stonewall inn” — the famous gay bar. No scientific publication I have come across cites this number. Bagemihl mentions in his book “more than 450 species”, of which about 100 are insects and worms, whose same sex behavior happens due to errors in identification of a partner because of disability or traces of female pheromones of on male’s cuticle. Birds in same-sex relationship also do not engage in sexual activity, for example, geese—according to Lorenz— mate only with females. Lorenz also describes how primates simulate coital movements as display of dominance. It has no sexual meaning or sexual motivation whatsoever. In fact, none of the species in nature actually engage in penetrative homosexual activity. We are talking about same sex behavior that in nearly all cases has no sexual context . As wrote Frank Beach: “I don't know any authenticated instance of males or females in the animal world preferring a homosexual partner. There is mounting of males by males, but without intromission of the penis or climax. There's also mounting of females by female (and makes by females) I'm not even sure we should call mounting sexual.” In addition, cannibalism, “pedophilia”, “coprophagy”, “necrophilia” are usual in the animal world, and occur in a much larger number of species, and are much more common. I regard the mention of 1500 species with homosexual behavior as manipulative and misleading, that only reflects the bias of the author. Therefore I suggest to remove this unsubstantiated and misinforming number and use the number of species whose same-sex behaviour has been documented, that is about 450. Путеец (talk) 13:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you that the article is unclear and seems to pit the numbers 450 and 1500 against each other, but the sources attached to the sentence citing 1500 seem to consistently use the word "observed", while the 450 number's references use "documented". Perhaps you haven't come across this figure in literature because they're simply instances of observed behavior, and haven't been published (which is what I think the distinction is between observed and. documented). Also, this is just any behavior and not specifically sex. Do we have reason to distrust the University of Oslo's exhibition which utilized the number in 2006? You haven't provided any sources which might discredit this claim, so I don't think the sentence should be removed just yet. I don't know who Joan Rugganger or Lorenz or Frank Beach are. Rhinopias (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
I think that this edit gives less credibility to the number. Rhinopias (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
The authors of numbers 450 and 1500 are not neutral. Путеец (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Something went wrong with the editing. Путеец (talk) 19:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@Rhinopias: You deleted the statements of biologists, but left a quote from a linguist who does not have a special education. Please return this text . Путеец (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Feel free to remove any of the quotes from the lead. I removed your contributions with that edit of mine for two reasons. One, your text In all other animal species, with the exception of humans, individuals who participate in same-sex sexual interactions are also involved in heterosexuals is a mischaracterization of the reference you used, Bailey et al.. On pages 68–69: "Exclusive same-sex sexual orientation across the life course is, however, extremely rare among animals …" (emphasis mine). This is not what you wrote.
Two, the lead section of this article is already a mess. The purpose of the section is to be "an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents", not to be a place for many detailed quotes or information not present in the body of the article. Subsections could be added to #Research. I only removed the content that you added and did not purposefully evaluate other content in the section. Rhinopias (talk) 19:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Bailey et al. says: "Approximately 6% to 10% of rams in these domestic breeds choose to court and mount other rams, but never ewes, when given a choice (Roselli, Larkin, Resko, Stellflug, & Stormshak, 2004). During some mounts between rams, penile-anal intromission and ejaculation occurs (Perkins & Fitzgerald, 1997). In all other animal species, with the exception of humans, individu-als that engage in same-sex genital interactions engage in heterosexual ones as well." Путеец (talk) 20:10, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
My mistake, so you added a copyright violation not a misinterpretation.
I don't think the sentence is very clear; some content in #Research contradicts the statement that Bailey et al. make of all "individuals" besides individuals of the few species specified. Regardless of that being a very large statement for the authors to make without directly attributing any other published work, all of this doesn't belong in the lead. A quick summary (such as "Rarely do non-human animals engage solely in homosexual behavior") is all that is warranted. The research on this particular aspect of homosexual behavior in non-human animals can be expanded in the body of the article. Rhinopias (talk) 20:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

No scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals. Here is the news of the exposition in the scientific source (Nature). About 500 species are mentioned. The number 1500 was used for political and propaganda purposes, as they say in the very news of BBC, where the number 1500 was first published. "An American commentator said it was an example of "propaganda invading the scientific world". Petter Bockman, a zoologist who helped put the show together, admitted that "there is a political motive"." All references that contain this number (1500) are not scientific and should be deleted. Путеец (talk) 07:53, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

@Rhinopias: Help with this situation until it grew into a world war of revisions. Путеец (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Dont worry. Such called " world war of revisions" will be will be stopped by blocks. Especially after admins whould see your Modus operandi. For example, you just accused very famous Western medias in "political propaganda" - . We are lucky you did not use the term of Russian law - "propaganda of homosexualism". M.Karelin (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • All self-respecting media, when making a mistake, make an announcement. I think after reading this page they will make a refutation. See scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals Путеец (talk) 16:08, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Help! Путеец (talk) 20:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Regarding this, WP:Pings only work with a new signature. Remember to sign your posts. As for this dispute, I don't have the time to help out with this. But I will state now that mental disorders do not apply to non-human animals. Not truly. Despite the term pedophilia sometimes being misused to apply to non-human animals, it is a human disorder. There are cases of non-human adults being sexual with non-human juveniles, but that does not make it pedophilia. We have no idea what is going on in the minds of non-human animals. Furthermore, even in the case of humans, child sexual abuse is not the same thing as pedophilia. When it comes to cannibalism, coprophagy and necrophilia, those are all acts that apply to humans and non-human animals. And something like necrophilia can be considered a disorder when applied to humans. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
For some information on mental disorders regarding non-human animals, see Mental disorder#Other animals. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:39, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I actually asked for help with the deletion of false information about 1500 species of animals, and with the opponent who is waging a war of revisions. Путеец (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I see that you asked me to help. I linked to it, and signed your post for you. You also stated above, "In addition, cannibalism, 'pedophilia', 'coprophagy', 'necrophilia' are usual in the animal world, and occur in a much larger number of species, and are much more common." I noted that I don't have the time to get involved with all of this. But since I saw the topic of disorders mixed in, I decided to comment on that. Disorders have been studied in relation to non-human animals, but they usually are not applied to non-human animals and some researchers have crafted different models for them due to problems with associating human disorders with non-human animals. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:59, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
"homosexuality has been observed in over 1,500 species" - disinformation without scientific confirmation! Why is she in the article? ! Путеец (talk) 22:06, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Look at the sources - it is not a disinformation. And the info was given with the name reference, is not it enough ?? M.Karelin (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
No scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals. This is the erroneous opinion of a jack of all trades helping to make an exhibition. Путеец (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, Petter Bøckman I propose to change the line to quote:

From: "Bagemihl, in 1999, described more than 450 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, documented exhibiting same-sex sexual behaviors. According to zoologist Petter Bøckman, homosexual behavior has been observed in over 1,500 species."

To:According to Bagemihl: "Same-sex behavior (comprising courtship, sexual, pair-bonding, and parental activities) has been documented in over 450 species of animals worldwide. While this may seem like a lot of animals, it is in fact only a tiny fraction of the more than 1 million species that are known to exist."

--Путеец (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Еveryone agrees that I made this correction and direct quote of Bagemih? --Путеец (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Help me with editing

I have collected extensive material on the topic, I will gradually add. But English is not native to me. I can not qualitatively retell the text of the quote. I ask you to correct my spelling, and if possible, instead of quoting, I should retell the quoted one. Путеец (talk) 07:33, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Modus operandi of the User:Путеец

User:Путеец, DO NOT DELETE the information from the article (escpecially from the intro) just because you dont like it. If the info in this artcle existe for month and years, you can NOT delete it without disscussion, especially if there is an objection against such removing an info. M.Karelin (talk) 10:02, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I noticed that you added other sources, such as comedy video authors. Scientific sources such as Nature, published 500. Путеец (talk) 10:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Thats why it is written - Other sources describe. If this was the only numbers in the Intro, I d remove it, but now its just show, that there are other sources too, and there is NO contradiction - one researcher can found 500 species, the other one - 1500. There is NO contradiction. M.Karelin (talk) 11:06, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

"there is a political motive"

Lets discuss here what does it mena - "there is a political motive". I hope native English speaking editors will help us. M.Karelin (talk) 10:26, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Путеец, I've already explained to you that the 1500 number seems to be referred to as observed and not documented, which is implying that this is not referring to published material. (The BBC article literally has: It says homosexuality has been observed among 1,500 species, and that in 500 of those it is well documented.) Though articles on Misplaced Pages which deal with scientific topics should be rigorously scientifically accurate, Misplaced Pages articles do not require scientific literature to cite information. Your reason for removing this information is not sufficient, seeming to be just "I don't like it". Experts in the field saying that the number exists is something that Misplaced Pages can use; it does not need to be published in a journal. Websites or news outlets (such as the ones that Миша Карелин mentioned, used for this information) may be good secondary or tertiary sources, and are just as reliable.

Second, I am not sure if details surrounding the quote from the BBC article quote (there is a political motive) are lost on you because of your stated English abilities, or you just did not read further because you feel that fits your agenda, but that's not what Petter Bockman (a zoologist, an expert in the field) is saying. After that quote from him is this: "In Norway there was a desire among publicly funded museums to be 'deliverers of truth' and to 'put on display controversial subjects, things that are not said and are swept under the carpet'." Meaning that this information is being used by museums to involve themselves in political discussions, which should not at all be interpreted as they're making up numbers for political reasons. Also, I'm confused how you seem to be ignoring that this exhibition was hosted by a university, which makes it seem pretty academic in nature to me. Rhinopias (talk) 22:54, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

No scientific source says 1,500 species of homosexual animals. ] This is the erroneous opinion of a jack of all trades helping to make an exhibition. All that scientists observe, they publish in peer-reviewed publications. This erroneous private opinion of one person who himself did not observe 1500 species of animals, and could not read this information anywhere. He invented it. No one has observed 1,500 species of animals with homosexual behavior. Путеец (talk) 23:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
You DO NOT understand one simple thing: the criterias of sources in en wiki and in ru wiki are not the same. ONCE AGAIN READ ALL THE TEXT WRITTEN ABOVE !!!! M.Karelin (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Lying should not be published as a statement of truth. Путеец (talk) 23:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Its not lying. Once again - READ THE WHOLE TEXT, especially the second paragraph and the very last sentence !! M.Karelin (talk) 23:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Give me a link to a list of 1500 species animals with homosexual behavior Путеец (talk) 23:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
We have many sources (acceptable in en-wiki) about that number, and besides, as it was written above, this exhibition was hosted by a university, which makes it seem pretty academic in nature. We have to trust the sources, and no one is obligated to give you any lists. M.Karelin (talk) 23:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Alright, I'm coming in as a neutral editor following Путеец's complaint about this dispute at the Teahouse, and I've got some observations after reading through the links presented.

    First off, the "observed" vs "documented" language seems quite clear, and the reliable sources quoted don't claim otherwise. I'm not quite sure what the problem is there.

    Secondly, Путеец is plainly misinterpreting cites to suit his own argument. That a scientist feels there's a "political" purpose to holding an exhibition demonstrating homosexuality in the animal kingdom doesn't by definition discredit the science involved in its evidence, or the conclusions drawn from that evidence.

    Thirdly, I'm likewise concerned that Путеец is going out of his way to demonize scientists and institutions who say things he doesn't like, but is quite sloppy about his own methodology. I don't place much credence, for instance, in some unnamed "American commentator" decrying this exhibition as "propaganda" -- the anti-science bent of the American conservative media is well known and longstanding, and while you can certainly come up with any number of cites from the Limbaughs, Becks and Coulters of the world pretty much calling any fact their corporate masters disapprove of as "liberal propaganda," that's far from scientific fact itself. Then we move right on to Путеец's insistence that failure of the search term ""1500+species"+animals+homosexual" to produce hits on the National Institute of Health (???) website is indicative of anything at all. If you want to dispute an assertion made by several reliable sources, you need to have solid, reliable sources stating that the assertion is false, not a wild flight of fancy that a failure of a search term "proves" anything. Путеец hasn't done that.

    Finally, I have to ask Путеец: why does this bother you so much? At the level worst, this number is an exaggeration, not a "lie." You've been doing some serious edit warring and forum shopping here, and the invective seems far out of proportion to the putative harm that might be done. Ravenswing 08:52, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Any exaggeration without justification, capable of influencing social life or politics is political. Especially this exhibition was supported by the government. Remember the Colin Powell test tube. Путеец (talk) 08:57, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • You are not commenting on the topic that I raised. I regard the mention of 1500 species with homosexual behavior as manipulative and misleading, that only reflects the bias of the author. Ravenswing please see this discussion Путеец (talk) 09:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, you haven't commented on a number of the topics I raised, but that's beside the point, because I did in fact comment on that particular topic. I said, and I quote, "If you want to dispute an assertion made by several reliable sources, you need to have solid, reliable sources stating that the assertion is false, not a wild flight of fancy that a failure of a search term "proves" anything." You haven't done that; you've just stated that you find the statement misleading, manipulative and biased. On the English Misplaced Pages, your private unsupported belief (or, as to that, mine or anyone else's) is just not good enough to to overturn what is so far unanimous consensus against your position. Ravenswing 10:14, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

The political motivation" - what it meant, and some notes of the 1500 species

Hallo people!

As I am the originator of the "political motivation" I'd like to give some context. The quote is from an English translation of an interview I gave to "Apollon", an university paper for the University of Oslo mostly reporting on research news, original article on-line here. The comment was aimed at the (at the time) well known initiative Archive, Library and Museum Development (abr. ABMU in Norwegian), a governmental committee to give grants to revitalize the usually somewhat dusty world of archives, libaries and museums. This initiative ran for a handful of years, and having largely achieved it's objectives is now disbanded.

The idea behind the initiative was to better engage these institutions in the popular debate by encourage them to comment on or exhibit on their knowledge on controversial subjects. This lead to various institutions publishing books or making exhibits on subjects like the history of Romani people in Norway, the lives of collaborators during the 2nd World War, asylums and orphanages and so on. The contribution of the Natural History Museum at the University of Oslo where I work was the Against Nature? exhibition, on homosexuality among animals. At the time, it ended up being the by far most visible and most cited of all the ABMU initiatives. The political comment was an acknowledgement to the grant we received from ABMU helping financing the exhibition (the grant covered about 1/3 of the cost if I remember correctly).

My comment on the "political motive" is a reference to the ABMU. We made the exhibit as our contribution to exhibit knowledge on controversial topics. It was not a reaction to persecution by anyone at the museum, nor an attempt at pontificating about politics. We very conspicuously avoided any comments on politics, focusing instead on what animals engage in homosexual behaviour and in the cases where function known why. While the original exhibition stuck strictly to what we know animals are up to, a more politicized version was later shown in Stockholm, Sweden as "Rainbow Animals". You'll have to ask the Swedes about that one, I was not involved.

I'm sorry if this wasn't quite the conspiracy you were after.

The 1500 species bandied about is the tally on animals species where "non-reproductive" sex is known, compiled by Bruce Bagemihl from his book Biologival exuberance, which was the most thorough survey of homosexual behaviour in animals at the time. Most of this tally is based on reports of single or just a handful of observation, and is not well understood. About 500 of them are however larger or well known species (mostly mammals and birds) where we have a fairly decent idea of the frequency and/or social function of same-sex mating. Most of these species are covered in this article. The numbers are just reporting on the state of knowledge at the time, nothing more. I quite enjoyed bandying these numbers about at the time in interviews, as they are nice, memorable numbers and have good "shock value" showing we're not dealing with just a handful of queer cats and dogs.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity at the wording. Petter Bøckman (talk) 11:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Petter Bøckman Bagemihl mentions in his book “more than 450 species”. Do you have the rest of the list? ~1000 species? Путеец (talk) 11:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
It's been a few years, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow at work. Basically it's a whole species appendix at the back of Bagemihls book. If I remember correctly, it includes a few cases of animals with obvious hormonal disturbances like "perruque deer" who sometimes try to mate with males, single observations (there's a blue-ring octopus and a woodpecker that has only been observed mating in the wild once, both observations was of mating between two males) and a few where mating associated behaviour (displaying, necking and similar) were observed, but not the actual mating. This is the reason I stick rather strictly to the term "exhibiting homosexual behaviour", rather than claiming an animal is gay. Petter Bøckman (talk) 11:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
That is why we wrote "homosexual behaviour", but not they are gay, LOL. M.Karelin (talk) 12:13, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
The name of article is Homosexual behavior in animals, I wish User Путеец understood this simple thing. M.Karelin (talk) 12:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Petter Bøckman Appreciate the time you took for this extensive explanation! One more question, please. Bagemihl mentions in his book “more than 450 species” that engage in same-sex activity (which is not necessarily sexual, e.g. female seagulls rearing chicks together). That means that that the rest (about 1050 species) refer to heterosexual non reproductive activity, am I right? 100 are insects and worms, whose same sex behavior happens due to errors in identification of a partner because of disability or traces of female pheromones of on male’s cuticle. In the animal index in my eBook are listed about 626 species, including subspecies and transvestism. Would you be so kind to specify the exact number of species that have been spotted in homosexual behavior, excluding transvestism, hatching partnerships, etc. Thanks in advance. Путеец (talk) 12:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
User Путеец, please read very carefully what Bøckman wrote, and do not try, as always, to change and distort the meaning of the words of another person. M.Karelin (talk) 12:57, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
User Путеец, since English is not your native language, I ask you, before drawing conclusions from what the other editors write here, carefully read and re-read what is written one more time, and only then draw conclusions. And again - do not take the words out of context. M.Karelin (talk) 13:21, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Ad hominem? Stop please. Petter Bøckman says: "The 1500 species bandied about is the tally on animals species where "non-reproductive" sex is known, compiled by Bruce Bagemihl from his book Biologival exuberance". My eBook are listed 626 species, include Nonreproductive, Alternative Heterosexualities and Parthenogenesis Путеец (talk) 13:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
"The 1500 species bandied about is the tally on animals species where "non-reproductive" sex is known, compiled by Bruce Bagemihl from his book Biologival exuberance, which was the most thorough survey of homosexual behaviour in animals at the time." One again - READ more carefully. A "Non-reproductive" sex is a very large definition, and it includes such sex between a male and a female. Please don't tell me that the figures provided by Bøckman included sex between males and females. M.Karelin (talk) 13:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Most of the observations of the 1000 species in question is of mating between same-sex partners, however it's mostly single or very limited observations, and the number do include a few dubious observations where the actual act is has not been observed or, the sex of the two involved is not 100% established and so on. This is the reason for the wording "has been observed" for that number, and the smaller number being restricted to more well observed and well understood cases. While the first category might seem unsatisfactory, it needs to be remembered that we do not know all a species terribly well. Most species are actually only known by a few anatomical traits, some are even only described from fragments, we don't really know their distribution, diet or habitat, let alone their sexual habits. Petter Bøckman (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
It's very helpful of you Petter Bøckman to give us this extra background, thank you. On the question of "political motivation", it seems reasonable to me to interpret it in this context in a non-sinister way, as referring to the awareness-raising or educational aspect of the work. There is no reason why that can't be a proper goal of a funding institution, just as university professorships and other posts in Public Understanding of Science have become fairly widespread. This sort of initiative is political in that it has social or attitudinal change as its aim. It is therefore distinct from a more strictly "scientific motivation", where (for example) a conference will be organised with the aim of furthering research in a particular area for its own sake and not for purposes related to informing the public as such. Neither activity is necessarily better or worse than the other, they are simply different motivations. FrankP (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you FrankP, I too consider the Archive-Library-Museum Development initiative as being benign. They did not ask for any specific topics. We could have proposed anything we felt was likely to raise eye-brows, from man-eating animals to the benefits of ecological excluding humans from parts of the Globe (see Involuntary park). Also, the only thing we received was some extra funding for the specific exhibition. The initiative coincided with a debate on adoption, where the wording "unnatural" was bandied around, and we felt this was were our knowledge could have some relevance. Some years later we managed to get another small grant for the role of evolution in modern society and it's social impact with regard to immigrants from countries with little scientific literacy. Petter Bøckman (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Petter Bøckman I appreciate the time you took to write this extensive explanation. My Bruce Bagemihl's ebook lists 626 species, among them are Nonreproductive, Alternative Heterosexualities and Parthenogenesis. Most observations are single or very limited, and some observations are quite dubious, where the actual act has not been identified or the sex of the involved was not 100% established and so on. Could you please clarify where the 1500 figure, and most recent 1000 came from? Perhaps you have another edition of the book or there are other sources? This number is very important and it in itself became political. It got into a lot of books and online publications, and I hope that the truth will be published here. I understand that same-sex behavior was observed in 626 species and documented in about 500 species. Путеец (talk) 05:08, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Look at the words of the User Путеец: "This number is very important and it in itself became political. It got into a lot of books and online publications, and I hope that the truth will be published here. " He still says the same things and use the same words, he did not undertand anything yet. M.Karelin (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
I sympathise with your frustration Миша Карелин but I wonder if we should not stress too much whether the number of species in which homosexual behaviour has so far been observed / documented is around 500 or 1000 or 1500. It is presumably a hard to define and ever-changing (increasing) number. And we don't even know within an order of magnitude (or more) how many species there are on Earth, but it's many millions. Perhaps we should be less worried about attempting precision here. Just a thought FrankP (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Compare: 1) "homosexual behavior is widespread in nature and there are 1500 species of animals." 2) "Homosexual behavior is almost never found in nature, and is observed in about 500 species, out of 1200000 species, mainly in insects due to identification errors and in birds that do not have sex in couples." Where is the truth, and where is propaganda? Think and change the article so that I will not be accused of war. Путеец (talk) 18:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
FrankP Do you see what's going on ?? He accused us in propaganda (see above), claiming us that we used the word "widespread" in Intro (no such thing), then he makes an original reserches (see his option N2). The only thing he does here, is POV-pushing. M.Karelin (talk) 19:48, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
I did not talk about the intro. Путеец (talk) 20:22, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Misha, yes I believe I do see what is going on, I suppose what I am saying is that we all have choices about how we respond to what is going on. I did regret bringing in the number of species globally, but here's another suggestion for an interpretation: (3) out of X million (X unknown) species, for the few thousand which have been observed at all closely, in the minority of cases where observers have actively and honestly looked at whether homosexual behaviour occurs, then in at least 1000 species, and possibly more (difficult to tell, but does the exact number matter here?) it has been observed, and in many cases (half?) documented in detail, as a behaviour-type whose frequency varies greatly between species from rare to fairly common. Who thinks that is an accurate summary? 20:16, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but this is a bit confusing. Current option is the best, maximum what we can change is make a small correction in 1500 figure (in the last sentence of Intro) after Bockman whould give us the exact number. M.Karelin (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Understood, I should have clarified -- I'm not suggesting this as wording for the article :) , but as a talking point within this discussion about the proper interpretation of the facts. FrankP — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrankP (talk • contribs) 20:33, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, I am very soory, but that would look very confusing for the readers. А lot of unnecessary figures in it. M.Karelin
Yes I agree. I said, "I am not suggesting this as wording for the article". FrankP (talk) 20:44, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

(talk) 20:39, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't have time to recheck my sources at work today (had to do work related stuff), but I'll make sure to look it up for you Путеец. I'm fairly certain I checked and rechecked again the numbers, knowing fully I would get in hot water for being sloppy. This was the first museum exhibition we did with actual references in the label texts, due to the somewhat unusual claims we made. Asking for the specifics is absolutely fine, and I'll do my best to provide you with the proper reference. Petter Bøckman (talk) 19:08, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Petter Bøckman In Misplaced Pages, you corrected the number of 450 species for 1500 species only on August 13, 2007 , apparently after the end of the exhibition. Maybe this will help remember the methodology of calculating 1500 species. We are waiting for clarification, thanks! --Путеец (talk) 16:02, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Fox on Orangutan behaviour

Миша Карелин You started the war of revisions, and distorted the quote to Fox. Bring her back. Full cite: "Homosexual behavior was observed two times: once at Suaq Balimbing and once at Ketambe. Both interactions were between males. The homosexual inter-action at Suaq Balimbing occurred between males that, based on both physical (body size, dark eyelids and palms) and behavioral (avoidance of flanged males, forced copulations with adult females) characteristics, were classified as repro-ductively mature, developmentally arrested subadults . The single interaction at Ketambe involved two adolescents."

Sample

Путеец (talk) 11:25, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk

  • Well, you added that paragraph recently. The User Ravenswing made a correction, but you brought it back again. I guess this is again is a result of your misunderstanding of the quote. Lets see what native English speakers whould tell us about it. M.Karelin (talk) 11:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
    • why understand the quote? I wrote it as it did in the source? Are you laughing at me and other editors? Cancel your vandalism. Do not stop working for those who read the sources. Путеец (talk) 11:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
      • "Why understand the quote" ?? Because this is not an aphorism or proverb. If you are writing something from a source, it should not be taken out of context. He did not mean that the homosexuality of the orangutans was ONLY twice observed at all. He meant something completely different. By the way, I am repeating again: the first correction was made not by me, but by Ravenswing. So the only one who is "laughing at me and other editors", is you. M.Karelin (talk) 11:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
        • Hello, a native English speaker here. I saw the message about this page on the Teahouse and thought I'd see if I could help. But it would be good if we could cool the tone of the discussion a bit, don't you think? Why doesn't everyone take a moment first to have a nice cup of tea and a sit down, or (insert your favourite calming activity here)? FrankP (talk) 18:13, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Right, I've checked the source paper. It's very clearly written, which helps (not all scientists write like that). "Homosexual behaviour was observed two times" is an accurate quote. However, I think what others are saying, Путеец, is that to fairly summarise a source it is not always sufficient to select one short snippet verbatim. In this study, orangutans were observed at two sites in Sumatra, and homosexual behaviour was observed in two pairs of orangutans, one pair at each site. The behavioural description is very thorough, in one case it involved a number of interactions over two days, in the other case the interaction was briefer. A total of 9900 hours were recorded, and this is the context for "two times". During this study, at these sites, over this period of observation, two pairs of male orangutans were observed engaging in sexual behaviour. FrankP (talk) 19:12, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Please count how many times the opponent accused me of vandalism. And canceled my edits. Look at the quality of his work and reasoning. You will see that the main motive of these actions is the censorship of uncomfortable scientific data. These are double standards. I hope that the truth, and truthful scientific information, will improve the article and Misplaced Pages. As you can see, in most cases - the opponent is not right. I hope for a joint fruitful work, colleagues. I ask you to evaluate the actions indicated in the section "Sample". Путеец (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

  • User Путеец, vandalsim is a deleting of an info based on normal sources. You did it several times here. As of quality and reasoning of my works - did you even notice that no one is agree here with your conclusions and understandings of sources ?? Did you notice that ?? M.Karelin (talk) 17:49, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

According to Fox

Please, guys, could we bury the hatchet and focus on content? Does anyone want to discuss what Elizabeth Fox has said in her paper on orangutans, and how best to represent it in the article? I thought that was what you wanted a view on? FrankP (talk) 18:37, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

  • According to Fox: "Humans are the only primate species in which individuals form homosexual pair bonds to the exclusion of heterosexual behavior. In other Great Apes, with the exception of the bonobo (Pan paniscus), homosexual behavior is infrequently reported from wild populations" at the beginning of the section on primates.
  • According to Fox, Homosexual behavior in orangutans "was observed two times: once at Suaq Balimbing and once at Ketambe. Both interactions were between males"

An exact quote from the source. Путеец (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

An exact quote, perhaps, but also a clipped quote. I mentioned this before (taking short snippets verbatim). It is not honest. FrankP
    • Please pay attention to this comment (regarding Orangutans). M.Karelin (talk) 19:52, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
    • In her source, Fox said: "Humans are the only primate species in which individuals form homosexual pair bonds to the exclusion of heterosexual behavior. In other Great Apes, with the exception of the bonobo (Pan paniscus), homosexual behavior is infrequently reported from wild populations" . But this is contradicting to what the other sources says about domesticated sheeps (I mean about exclusive homosexual orientation of some domesticated sheeps). M.Karelin (talk) 19:55, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Sheep != Primates
Then I can tell you Fox isn't entirely up to speed on the wild and wacky field of animal pair bonding. True, very few mammals form exclusive homosexual bonds, because very few mammals form exclusive bonds at all, homosexual or otherwise. Lifelong pair bonding is on the other hand not uncommon in birds, with exclusive homosexual lifelong pars being known from various species of parrots, sea birds, penguins and flamingos. Animals with liflong strong homosexual preferences are also known from most (if not all) domestic mammal species. Petter Bøckman (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
She said "the only primate species"
We will invite authors of the work on domestic sheep here and they will confirm to you that their research was conducted with errors. I can point out all the errors of their research. You have already tried to remove my edits from the article, in this regard. Путеец (talk) 20:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
1) Stop making original reserches (you can not tell us about errors), 2) pay attention what Bockam wrote just above 3) show me the exact quote of Fox about bonobos. M.Karelin (talk) 20:16, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
You have all mixed up. Firstly, not a bonobo but an orangutan, and secondly I gave exact quotes. Путеец (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
  • (1) I have the Fox article. If anyone wants me to send them the PDF I am happy to do so. The complete abstract says "Wild male Sumatran orangutans at two study sites engaged in homosexual behavior. These observations demonstrate that homosexual behavior is not an artifact of captivity or contact with humans. In separate instances, homosexual behavior was associated with affiliative and agonistic behaviors. These observations add orangutans to the list of primates in which homosexual behavior forms part of the natural repertoire of sexual or sociosexual behavior." FrankP (talk) 20:50, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
  • (2) She does give a brief note on published results for other ape species: "Humans are the only primate species in which individuals form homosexual pair bonds to the exclusion of heterosexual behavior . In other Great Apes, with the exception of the bonobo (Pan paniscus) , homosexual behavior is infrequently reported from wild populations. It has been observed in female and male mountain gorillas, with prolonged copulatory thrusting and/or frottage, copulation vocalizations, and, in some males, ejaculation (D. Watts, personal communication)."
  • (3) Another note about primates more generally, "Homosexual behavior forms part of the sexual or sociosexual repertoire of a large array of primate species . For species in which homosexual behavior is observed in the wild, its frequency of expression ranges from rare to common." All these quotes from the first page of Fox 2001. FrankP (talk) 20:58, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
When you next time make a war of revisions, call me. I give exceptionally accurate quotes, because I can not retell them! Путеец (talk) 21:03, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

More recent sources?

Hoping to move things on, Bagemihl is not the only source for an overview of this topic. It might be useful to consult Volker Sommer and Paul Vasey (eds), Homosexual Behaviour in Animals - an evolutionary perspective (CUP 2006). I have found a book review of this from the journal Animal Behaviour (can share a PDF if anyone interested), but I'm not currently in a position to lay my hands on a copy of the book. Does anyone else have access? FrankP (talk) 10:28, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Ah, silly me, I see it is already referenced in the article. Perhaps there is more that can be got from this more recent source, anyway
As far as I'm aware, Bagemihl is the only comprehensive survey there that has been done across the whole field of zoology. Other works (Roughgarden, Sommer & Vasey, MacFarlane & al. etc) all centre on particular aspects of the field. Bagemihls book is starting to show some age, but it's still the only one of its kind (and I expect we won't see a similar volume any time soon). Petter Bøckman (talk) 19:14, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Bagemihl says: "Same-sex courtship, sexual, pair-bonding, and/or parenting behaviors have been documented in the scientific literature in at least 167 species of mammals, 132 birds, 32 reptiles and amphibians 15 fishes, and 125 insects and other invertebrates, for a total of 471 species. (see part 2 and appendix for a complete list). These figures do not include domesticated animals (at least another 19 species; see the appendix), nor species in which only sexually immature animals/juveniles engage in homosexual activities" Путеец (talk) 19:18, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Full list on Bagemihl count 626 species in appendix include Nonreproductive, Alternative Heterosexualities and Parthenogenesis Путеец (talk) 19:19, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Petter Bøckman if You did not use other sources, then these figures are the most accurate Путеец (talk) 19:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Friends, I call for peace. Believe it or not, the most accurate figure of animals that Bagemihl somehow considered homosexual is 490 471+19. Write a reference to him and to this figure. It will be exact, scientifically. Путеец (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

User Путеец about Bøckman and SCOTUS in Russian wikipedia

We don't need conflicts on another language's Misplaced Pages to be imported here. --NeilN 20:22, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To prove the modus operandi of the User Путеец, just look what he wrote in ru wiki , , . In two first sentences he accused Bøckman in fraud and propaganda, and in the third one he tried to prove me that the SCOTUS (US Supreme Court) is a political instrument. That is the Modus operandi of the User. M.Karelin (talk) 20:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

domestic rams 8%

Friends, look at my clarifications. I'm afraid that my opponent will delete this information again, but it completely changes the meaning of the phrase. I can provide proof of every word I say. I hope, on the correct understanding of my corrections and edits of my opponent. I will avoid changing the article until you are convinced of my rightness.

8% -10% This figure is better not to use. It has no scientific justification. If you study the initial research, then you will understand this. I can prove it. But not right away, it's hard for me to write in English.

Here is an exact text based on scientific sources:

Some of rams (males), detached from the mother and grown in same-sex flocks, without access to females, refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams. A similar phenomenon was observed in mice excommunicated from the mother and grown in isolation. Short interaction with the female restored sexual behavior in them. They began to show aggression towards males and were interested in females. Путеец (talk) 22:01, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

evidence

In a 2004 survey , Roselli, referring to 8-10% of "homosexual" sheep, refers to two studies: (1) Price et al. (1988) - in this article a group of 54 rams was studied, of which 4 were classified as individuals with same-sex behavior (7.4%), and (2) Perkins et al. (1992) - a group of 94 rams was studied, 8 of them were classified as individuals with same-sex behavior (8.5%) However, it is not indicated where the figures 54 and 94 came from - the total number of tested rams in each of the two studies.Путеец (talk) 04:48, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

John A. Resko et al. says: "Rams for these studies were obtained from the U.S. Sheep Experimental range flock (N = 5000 ewes), Dubois, ID. Rams were representative of the major breeds, consisting of Targhee, Rambouillet, Columbia, and Polypay. All rams were born in the spring lambing season (April and May). Rearing conditions have been described previously . Briefly, ewes and lambs grazed spring and summer ranges until the time of weaning in August. At weaning, ram and ewe lambs were separated from the dams. Ram lambs were combined into all-male groups of approximately 400-500 head. The ram lambs were kept on fall rangeland, grazing for an additional 2 mo, then moved to a feedlot (November through April). Ram lambs were given alfalfa hay (18% crude protein) and a commercially supplemented barley-based concentrate ration at approximately 1.5 kg per head per day. At one year of age, ram lambs were moved as a group onto spring ranges and kept through the summer and fall. During this time, they were exposed only to natural changes in photoperiod and had no physical contact with females. Beginning at approximately 16-18 mo of age, rams were given sexual behavior tests."

  • And already on the basis of these tests have chosen a small group of rams. Perhaps the most non-active ones were chosen to study the reasons for their inactivity. But these sheep are grown under unnatural experimental conditions! I do not know what prompted subsequent authors to repeat this number (8%) without checking. Путеец (talk) 05:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

"They found that all of the non-performers came from the all-male group that were permitted to physically interact with other rams and concluded that the occurrence of low-response sexual behavior in rams is related to experiential factors such as rearing conditions. Subsequent studies by Price and colleagues demonstrate that early exposure of rams to females will increase the probability of rams becoming sexually active, but will not prevent some rams from being male-oriented or low sexual performers". Путеец (talk) 04:37, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Even if we use a smaller, more favorable figure for the significance, the figure is 400 - then the proportion of such males will be 1.5%. Moreover, Roselli in the review of 2004, for some reason did not mention the article Stellflug et al. (2002) In determining the proportion of sheep with same-sex behavior, in which only one sheep out of 84 males (1.2%) was detected. Also, the publication of Price et al. (1999) - only 2 males out of 104 recorded mounting exclusively for other males - less than 2%. FrankP, Petter Bøckman Flyer22 Reborn please correct the errors that are now written in the article Путеец (talk) 04:30, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

"The social environment in which male lambs are reared influences the sexual behavior of rams (Casteilla et al., 1987; Katz et al., 1988): rams reared in all-male groups show little interest in females when they are used for breeding (Zenchak and Anderson, 1980). Srivastava et al. (1989) reported that homosexual behavior in rams is a conse-quence of prolonged isolation from females and exclusive contact with males. In the same vein, Ungerfeld et al. (2013) recently reported that bucks reared in isolation from females displayed mating behaviors to-ward a greater number of novel bucks than bucks that were reared in permanent contact with females. This led these authors to propose that males that were reared in isolation from females considered other males as possible sexual partners. Therefore, isolation from females may be a determinant of a greater frequency of male–male sexual interactions."

Let's see what the authors mean by “homosexuality” in rams. The animals were given sexual performance test: the ram was placed for 30 minutes in a room where two ewes and two rams were restrained and immobilized in a device known as ‘rape rake’ (see picture ). It should be noted that the immobile stance of an animal is the single most important trigger for male mounting behavior. Some of the subjects, who have never seen a female in their live, had no clue what to do with them and mounted those who they know — males. In nature mounting males by males does not have any sexual context and serves as a show of social rank, something like: I mount you — therefore I’m dominant and you subordinate. It’s well known that rams reared in same-sex groups have to be taught how to mate with ewes. They require special conditions: separate pen with ewes, artificial vagina, etc. Psychologist Harry Harlow, famous for his discoveries in the field of affective attachments, says that physical sexual gestures, such as courtship rituals or mounting behavior are laid down from birth, but how, when and with whom to use them can be learned only through social interaction. Subsequently, nearly all males developed a heterosexual preference. Of the group of 23 rams that grown in a same-sex group, only one could not do it. The studies showed that males grown in a mixed group will be more active than those grown in a same-sex group, and the earlier is acquaintance with ewes, the less likely is homosexual behavior, even if the acquaintance is purely visual — through the fence. Although conventional terminology is used in animal studies, such as "sexual partner preference","sexual orientation","homosexual", etc. , these terms are not identical to those used to describe human sexual orientation, which is a much more complex phenomenon.

Путеец (talk) 07:34, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk

Please do not change the proof section Путеец (talk) 05:02, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, Ravenswing may be right that counting does not violate WP:OR but this is of a different order. We are not drafting a review paper about ovine sexuality. We should be trying to improve an encyclopedia article. But I thank you for your detailed comments, I will work through them, as you can appreciate it will need a bit of attention. I do question whether this is the ideal editorial process. FrankP (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I proposed a minor addition of the paragraph on rams. And a detailed explanation. If it is not enough to make this change, I will provide additional evidence.--Путеец (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Change 1) to 2) Do not count anything.

sorry, I was only trying to make a little joke
  1. "About 10% of rams (males), refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams."
  2. "Some of rams (males), detached from the mother and grown in same-sex flocks, without access to females, refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams. A similar phenomenon was observed in mice excommunicated from the mother and grown in isolation. Short interaction with the female restored sexual behavior in them. They began to show aggression towards males and were interested in females." (just check the language)

--Путеец (talk) 20:56, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Hang on, I'm focussing on all that you wrote before. So I'm not ready to consider the new wording, but thank you, let's keep that "on the table". I have some questions about the Evidence section.
(Q1) In first para, you begin, "In a 2004 survey Roselli ..".
I have noted two articles by Roselli + others in 2004, which I will label:
2004a Roselli, Larkin, Schrunk, Stormshak in Physiology and Behaviour
2004b Roselli, Larkin, Resko, Stellflug in Endocrinology
Which of these do you mean to refer to?
(Q2) Your ext link following the discussion of the Roselli paper mentioned in Q1 does not lead to either 2004a or 2004b, but to Resko, Perkins, Roselli et al (1996), Endocrine Correlates of Partner Preference Behavior in Rams, in Biology of Reproduction. Why is this?
In a 2004 survey, Roselli says: "By far the largest proportion of rams is female-oriented. A study by Price et al. recorded that of 54 rams that were studied in a choice test, 18.5% were sexually inactive, 55.6% met criterion for a female sexual partner preference, 7.4% preferred male sexual partners, and 18.5% interacted sexually with both males and females. Perkins et al. reported similar sexual partner preference distributions for rams. Of 94 rams tested in this study, 17% were asexual, 74.4% mounted and attained ejaculation with ewes, and 8.5% mounted other rams." --Путеец (talk) 04:38, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
From the abstract to this paper, Roselli (2004a): "It is estimated that as many as 8-10% of rams exhibit a sexual partner preference for other males, classifying them as male-oriented rams. Studies have failed to identify any compelling social factors that can predict or explain the variations in sexual partner preferences of rams." So Roselli's conclusion seems to be against your contention that the same-sex mating behaviour of certain sheep is best explained by social factors to do with their upbringing or environment. FrankP (talk) 20:11, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
When considering the sources, one must see everything. Otherwise it will turn out like with the myth of 1500 species of animals. --Путеец (talk) 20:18, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
(Q3) Your 4th para is referenced to yet another study, namely Roselli, Reddy and Kaufman (2011) The development of male-oriented behavior, in Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology. Since your argument seems to rest on the precise experimental conditions, it is very important that we know which study you are talking about at any time. The conditions are very likely to be different in each study. I got a bit confused at this point.
I just quote the 2011 study as a supporting thesis. This study confirms my thesis. "early exposure of rams to females will increase the probability of rams becoming sexually active" --Путеец (talk) 04:33, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
That is where I have got to so far. Must go now but will check back later. FrankP (talk) 21:14, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Note -- I have removed two "Further information" hatnotes from the Sheep section, because the linked articles contain no further info, only re-stating substantially the same facts as are being discussed here. If we reach a resolution here, then someone should take on making consequential edits at the other articles: Sheep#Behavior and Animal sexual behaviour#Sheep. Because it seems this page is the primary location within Misplaced Pages for information on the topic. FrankP (talk) 22:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

When I come to work, I will answer in more detail. As for a separate section of the Sheep, it also provides one-sided information from sources. Here is what we wrote in Russian Misplaced Pages: "Roselli et al., In a review published in 2011 in the journal Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology, Baltazar in a review published in 2016 in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences, and Bailey et al (2016), analyzing the results of studies on this sheep population, proposed several hypotheses, one of which is the difference in the brain: the core of sexual dimorphism of sheep with homosexual behavior is influenced by a lower concentration of androgens in the embryonic period.In addition to this hypothesis, on the other, explaining the development of same-sex sexual preferences in sheep, including the influence of same-sex upbringing, genes, olfactory reactions, none of which is mutually exclusive, and none of them showed themselves as playing the main role .Our understanding of the causes of same-sex preferences Although the data available to date indirectly support this hypothesis (on oSDN), many questions remain unanswered. Obviously, more research is needed to understand the difficulties associated with organizing the same-sex preferences of sexual partners in sheep. Subsequent studies conducted by Price and colleagues showed that early interaction between males and females increases the likelihood that sheep will become sexually active. "

Sexual dimorphism nuclei were studied in sheep AFTER their sexual maturation and experience. This is similar to the studies in homosexuals deceased of AIDS. I see in this perseverance an attempt to avoid a simple and obvious reason. Unfortunately, sheep have become a political tool in this process. But look at the research on mice : this confirm the activation of specific brain structures and behavior DURING the sexual maturation and experience, in addition, in a study in humans of young age, these areas (so called sexual dimorphic) have the same size in both sexes, and it changes during sexual development .

An unusual form of reproductive suppression occurs in male orangutans. Although they become sexually mature at the age of seven to ten years, males as a whole can not develop the full spectrum of secondary sexual characteristics for another seven years, sometimes it has been delayed for two decades. It is believed that this development is suppressed by the presence of a mature male, perhaps through social intimidation or stress, which controls, through epigenetic mechanisms, the development of secondary sexual characteristics, including brain structures. And not the other way around, as they try to prove. --Путеец (talk) 02:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Some scientists try to prove differences in the brain as the cause of homosexual behavior, but analyzing modern research it becomes obvious that these changes appear as a result of different sexual and social experiences. This need to be studied additionally. --Путеец (talk) 04:46, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Wrong place

User Путеец added this kind of info in a new subsection and he called it "Social environment", and put it in "Basis" section. The place of the new info is wrongfull, as long as it refers to the sheeps (rams) only, but it is given as a general info. If the sources are reliable, and the info is given in accordance with WP:WEIGHT adn WP:NPOV (I did not chack it yet), then we can add this info in section about "Sheeps". This info is relevant only to Sheeps. M.Karelin (talk) 23:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

  • If you tried to read the sources, you realized that they are not just about rams. In addition, I did not complete the work on this section. This theory of the emergence of homosexual behavior, unlike other theories, is proved by practical observations, not just one species of animals. Administrators and other colleagues call for an evaluation of Миша Карелин actions. Let me continue to work on this section. Return it to the article. Why did not you move the description of the genetic and neurobiological causes into the section about mice? Are these double standards? --Путеец (talk) 04:06, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

According to Baghemil

I wonder, did this edit was discussed with other editors before it was made ?? M.Karelin (talk) 05:02, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Petter Bøckman explain the reasons for which you indicated the number 1500. This became a policy. They try to block me, because I carefully read the sources. Help me. In Misplaced Pages, you corrected the number of 450 species for 1500 species only on August 13, 2007 apparently after the end of the exhibition. Maybe this will help remember the methodology of calculating 1500 species. We are waiting for clarification, thanks! --Путеец (talk) 06:07, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Mouse

Dear colleagues, I noticed that we do not have a section about mice, although there are many sources about homosexual behavior of mice. Any objections to write a separate section about them ? M.Karelin (talk) 06:18, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Give a list of studies on homosexual behavior of mice. --Путеец (talk) 06:40, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Well, besides several sources already included in the article, one source was given by you. In my opinion it will be right to collect all those info in one section about mice. M.Karelin (talk) 07:03, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
    • You are wrong. My source does not describe homosexual behavior. There is no description of the process itself. He describes the reasons. --Путеец (talk) 07:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
      • Again and again I remind you, that this article is about "Homosexual behavior in animals". If you source "describes the reasons", it is still about the mentioned behavior. If you are against creating of a different section, just tell us about it, mentioning the reasons. M.Karelin (talk) 07:23, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
        • I'm not against your proposal to create a section on mice, and even help you do this when you provide sources that describe homosexual behavior. To understand what the scientific description of homosexual behavior means, read the work of Fox about the Oragnutans. Perhaps you are trying to create a section on mice in order to hide information about the social causes of homosuistic behavior. But this is not possible, because the social basis is described in almost all higher animals, and I was surprised that this fact is not covered in this article. You did not let me finish this section. Administrators will definitely determine the quality of your contribution. --Путеец (talk) 07:33, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
          • "Perhaps you are trying to create a section on mice in order to hide information about the social causes of homosuistic behavior." - first of all I d suggest you to read this policy, before judging my actions. Second, I did not try to hide anything, read more carefully what did I write above, I just suggeted you to write the same info in "Sheeps" section (because there is a contradictions of whats is written in sources). If I tried "to hide something" I would not suggest you that. As of mice, I just noticed that there are several sources describing homosexual behaviour of mice, but we dont have a defferent section about them. Thats why i suggested to create a different section about them. As you see, everything is much simpler than you think. M.Karelin (talk) 08:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
            • Do it, please, instead of talking. The section on the social causes of homosexuality will be written in any case on the basis of a huge number of other sources related to mice and rams, and not associated with them. For example, this is described in Fox. I wait when you create a section about mice to join the work. --Путеец (talk) 08:21, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
              • Again I ask you to calm down, this style of converstaion will not create a normal "work space". If my suggestion will be supported, we ll discuss details with colleagues about the section. I want to remind you, that the Administrator on his talk page suggested you to gain consensus of your edits, before making changes in the article. Since many of your edits are very controversial, I d suggest you the same: before making a big edits, write here a draft of it, and also mention where exactly you want to add it. Then the draft will be editied and amended, after which you can put it in the article. That will be the best option to avoid those kind of situations. Believe me, the administrator gave you a good advice. M.Karelin (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
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