Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:26, 24 October 2006

Calling innocent women and children Hindu zealots isn't NPOV.Bakaman _Bakatalk 23:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• I have referred many media except of course the media who are supporters of the Hindutva ideas and most referred to the crowd that fell the Babri mosque as Hindu Zealots, Hindu fundamentalists or Hindu Nationalist.

TerryJ-Ho 23:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Zealots? Whats the CPIM or IMC? Those are not balanced sources. Anybody that calls them women and children is now Hindutva? Looking at your history of edits, and the pages on your userpage, the ONLY sources you find acceptable are anti-Hindu sources. Of course, since I am trying to work under Bcorr's guidelines, I won't voice my opinion on the actual page but consider this a response to the sad state of the article.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Please read these articles from TIME and BBC sp. Pic caption- they refer to the Hindu zealots felling the Babri Mosque.TerryJ-Ho 01:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Onlinevolunteers.org is about as NPOV as Hindu Unity. As far as wiki is concerned, sites like those are merely propaganda megaphones.Bakaman _Bakatalk

In response 1992. 2002. Women and children on a train are not zealots. 1992 was the demolition of the disputed structure. 2002 was the backlash to the attack on the Sabarmati. There were no Hindu zealots on the train.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The "zealots" referred to Hindus that razed the Babri Mosque, not the Hindus on the train. BhaiSaab 02:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The Hindus that took down the disputed structure took 10 years to come back by train? 1992-2002. TerryJHo wishes to describe the train ones as zealots also.Bakaman _Bakatalk 18:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Though they could very appropriately be mentioned as zealots (wasn't it their zeal to go to Ayodhya - to demand a temple be built on the mosque site)- I have not refered those who died in the train incident as zealots in the Misplaced Pages text,So why are you citing something that I have not mentioned in the article.

TerryJ-Ho

Hello TerryJ-Ho. I have access to millions of older news articles from various databases. If you want, I can email you some reliable articles from the New York Times regarding the 2002 Gujarat violence, and if you have a request for other reliable sources, I can probably get you those too. Just email me. BhaiSaab 01:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bhaisaab, Thanks, I have a long list of articles too..I am asking for acceptable sources from Baka, the thing is while working with other groups on the previous article.I have this problem of people attacking each and every source as Anti Hindu.So may be those people could cite sources that they will agree with - they attacked Amnesty,HRW,US government reports,reports from NHRC,other humanrights teams that visited Gujarat.They seemed to be happy with a particular site called as Bharatvani that has a Pro-BJP,RSS panel.I will email you though to be able to get more data on this topic.

TerryJ-Ho 01:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Bharatvani is run by a scholar named Koenraad Elst who has a degree in Indian culture. He is a reputable source. HRW is biased as are any human rights groups that condemn Godhra but don't condemn the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir or the attacks against minorities in Pakistan. Those are bigger issues than one riot in which a large number of Hindus were killed also. When Netaji comes back he will probably have some good sources, seeing as how he spends most of his time on this article (and other articles similar to this) while I prefer to work on Wikiproject:Bengal with Ragib, and therefore have less time to check on the POV.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The dynamics of Kashmir problem are different being a problem with two different countries while Gujarat is an internal problem of India.TerryJ-Ho

Really. I believe the Muslim terrorists who blew up the train received support from the ISI. And there are no Kashmiri Pandits in PoK, so both are India's problems, one large scale (Pandit massacre and genocide) the other a measly communal riot.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Those who put the coach on fire were no terrorists, they were just responding to the provocations and it was a spontaneous outbreak of emotions.There is hardly any need for ISI to help, India being a big country has many resources specially the traitors in the army.TerryJ-Ho

Really, not terrorists? Burning innocent women and children isn't terrorism but the victors of the communal riots are perpetrators of a genocide. What kind of twisted logic is this?Bakaman _Bakatalk 16:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No , They were just responding to the heat of the moment ..it is action and reaction.Kar Sevaks shouted slogans and misbehaved at the railway stations,so the result and what happened after that in the whole of Gujarat justified that TerryJ-Ho 21:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Suit yourself. So some people singing "Jai Sri Ram" naturally made the Muslims burn down a train which naturally led to the riots, which naturally led to the Mulsims getting owned in the riots. Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Normally, people would voice their concerns (perhaps in court) but of course secular people get treated in a special way right?Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Your Modi spoke of Action and reaction - The same logic appliesTerryJ-Ho 23:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. The riots were merely a Hindu reaction, with no gov't intervention (present or even needed). Nice to see we agree on something.Bakaman _Bakatalk 23:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for proving that there was no gov't intervention (present or even needed)when India is a signatory to UN conventions guranteeing life and property of all its citizenTerryJ-Ho

Jehadis don't count anymore than they would at Gitmo.Netaji 20:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLP Violation

Please refrain from insulting brilliant and insightful scholar Daniel Pipes in my talk page here. This is a violation of WP:BLP and I will report you if you continue. Have a nice day.Netaji 01:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is not a violation of WP:BLP since that policy only pertains to articles. BhaiSaab 01:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken, WP:BLP applies to articles, talk pages, categories, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

More character assassination

Refrain from inserting original research that is irrelevant to the Babri Mosque article. Plus, the section on Pipes you inserted is tantamount to a character assassination of well-respected and US government appointed political scholar Daniel Pipes. Further perpetration of such a deed is grounds for reporting.Netaji 23:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Reporting as legal??TerryJ-Ho

Is Misplaced Pages a US government property and you their lawyer? I have taken cue from you .In fact, I have been everyone as Anti-Hindu.

I have to say that your edit is not at all NPOV as this is not the place to discuss Pipes. If a reference to his comments biases the article, it is best to discuss and remove his comment. Blnguyen | rant-line 00:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree it was but not unlike the edits by another user who contributes on these pages.I can see a number of his articles where a criticism chapter enters an otherwise normal text.Though there is hardly any need to discuss, the Misplaced Pages article itself on Pipes mentions the number of occassions he has been referred to as Anti Muslim.This is another effort at weasling.TerryJ-Ho 15:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well just put a link to Pipes or call him a neocon. That way there is no POV or weasel words, or defamation.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a view from someone who has never been critical of Israel.His comments are highly critical of Muslims in general and he is no historian or scholar on South Asia or archaeology.TerryJ-Ho 15:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What does Israel have to do with this? Fact is, Pipes is a scholar and he wrote about this. Bear in mind that many muslims regard India as part of the "Greater Middle East" and so Pipes, a middle east scholar, was naturally interested in the Islamism in India.Netaji 20:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Instead of removing his quotes, why not find something to back up your edit of the Muslim side on the "proof" part of the issue. I am keeping the senttence until you find proof that the disputed structure was not a temple at some point in time before the Hindu holocaust. Of course the Hindu sides proof is nearly irrefutable, making it a hard look.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

If this issue could be settled on my and your proofs.We would not have been wasting our time on this article.What proofs you have of someone born 1.3 Million years ago (when Rama was said to be born)when the first Homo Sapiens specimen made appearance only around 1,35,000 BC.It is all about fantacising.TerryJ-Ho 19:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well Christians say that the word originated in 4000 BC. So much for that.Netaji 20:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hindu Hollowcast - that should be the term?TerryJ-Ho 19:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Just replace the "Hindu" by "Jew" if you are in Austria and you're in jail. Many secular scholars (Will Durant, for instance) have documented evidence from muslim sources detailing the holocaust of the Hindus by Islamics.Netaji 20:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I guess the religion of peace is also a joke too huh? Also Ram was born in 5114 BC not 1.3 million years ago like the 3M (Mullah-Missionairy-Marxist)-axis say. I dont know why you are talking about Bhagwan Ram when I am merely talking about the disputed structure. Of course your horrible attempts at humor mask the fact that you have not (and will not) be able to find proof to back up the Mullahs (not even Muslims, most Muslims dont care) side of the argument.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This Maharishi says Rama was born at least millons of years ago in Treta Yuga,By all means if it is Ram's birth spot who took birth million of years ago..How can one be sure of his place of birth.Considering both you and this Maharishi and this gentleman who has written on Vedic cosmology are correct,when you are not sure of when he took birth ,how can you say that he took birth on that exact spot

Answer my question

It does not matter whether Ram's birth was in an exact spot. Prove it was not a temple before being destroyed and vandalized by the emperor Barbar and his barbarians.Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That question is secondary.The primary question is whether or when Rama was born or is just a mythological legend.That site is important to Hindus as they say it is Rama's birthspot.If he was never born - what is the point of creating a birthplace and exactly on the spot where a mosque stood.Secondly,if you have gone through the external sources cited on the Babri - RJB pages, there is ample evidence that no such temple existed not from Muslim but Secular researchers.

I see no such evidence. The question I asked has gone unanswered. Meanwhile this question is a stupid question, because Ram did exist. I won't answer any of your questions (needless to say Ram existed, and the Mosque was an eyesore) until you give me refs. Bakaman _Bakatalk 14:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Read this again.Your semi-answer is a stupid answer itself.It is a mere contention..rhetoric and no fact.Prove that Rama was a human being that inhabited the earth just afte the dinosaur era and by your second calculation of 9000 BC.There is no recorded history beyond 10000 years from now.You cant prove that such a person inhabited the earth - clean shaven.TerryJ-Ho

I made no such calculation of 9000BC. I asked for you to prove a TEMPLE never existed under the eyesore called the Babri Mosque. Anyways, your source merely proved there was a temple under the disputed structure. As for trying to put Ram advocates against Saivites, you will find that Saivites support the Ram temple and dont really care about whether it may have been a Saivite Ashram, myself (a hard core Saivite) included. As for your IP tag team buddy, you just screwed up his statement "there is ample evidence that no such temple existed not from Muslim but Secular researchers", looks like your trusted source failed you. For proving Ram existed, you may want to consult the Ramayan where Valmiki states "this is a true story" at the beginning of the narration.Bakaman _Bakatalk 18:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is Ram Janmabhoomi so important.Not because it is any temple but because it is the birthplace of Rama according to Hindutva history.So the actual question is whether or when Rama was born.So find out whether Rama was born or just a bed time story.You seem to be placing your eggs in a wrong basket when you say Saiva temple was found.The article is taking a dig at the historians by saying taht.Raed "There is no mention of a temple, only of evidence of a massive structure, fragments of which speak about their association with temple architecture of the Saivite style""However, D. Mondal questions this, saying that these pillar bases would have been unable to support "load-bearing pillars of stone". Mondal also says that the pillar bases are not contemporaneous, but belong to different structural phases. In other words, they were not built together as base pillars of one superstructure, ("a grand 10th century temple," as BJP president Venkaiah Naidu claimed) but belonged to different periods when they supported different superstructures.TerryJ-Ho 19:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"

They still stated there was a temple underneath the eyesore and that the mullahs went crazy (look at the bottom of the article).71.111.175.122 19:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I auto-signed out.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

and if you also see that in the interim report they could not find any traces of temple.that made the Mad Hindus crazy and it was also claimed that they manipulated evidence as well as destroyed their original notes within 24 hoursTerryJ-Ho 19:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC) how's reston?

Muslims and their liberal chelas said similar things about the Temple Mount in Israel also. Didn't work there, won't work here either. Too bad.Netaji 20:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I could care less whether Ram Janmabhoomi is a Shiva temple. Most Hidus still would rather see a Ram Janmabhoomi temple than an eyesore of destruction called the "Babri Masjid".Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

caps lock obsession

Dude. What's this?:

"DO NOTTTTTTTTT"

What are you, 10? Refrain from childish histrionics please. It makes you look sophomoric.Netaji 20:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Obfuscatory comments also make one appear sophomoric. BhaiSaab 20:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Calling people fascist (not aimed at BhaiSaab) makes people sound sophomoric.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Fascism talk

Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. This is regarding your labeling of myself as a "fascist" and Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. - This is reagarding your attack of Netaji using the term "fascist".Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've made a note on my userpage. Blnguyen | rant-line 08:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you may be blocked for disruption. Shell 22:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand that you're in the middle of a dispute over content in some articles. It was a really good idea to engage the Mediation Cabal to try to help resolve the dispute. However, calling people paid agents and making other disparaging remarks isn't a good idea. You've been asked to stop attacking - its always a good idea to remember, if your comment is about the contributor and not the content, you might want to reword it. Since you continued to be highly incivil even after repeated requests, you've been blocked for one hour. When the block is up, please continue with dispute resolution and don't let yourself be drawn into rude behavior just because you think others are doing it. A well-reasoned argument will get you much further. Happy editing! Shell 23:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• I have time and again told you there is no Muslim perspective on these issues - there is a Secular perspective and a Hindu Fundamentalist perspective.If I were to include Muslim perspective - you would see for instance that the death toll in Gujarat riots would have been stated as 3,000 or even around 20000.TerryJ-Ho

• Or maybe its the facts vs sentimentalism. Gujarat gov't gets the most investment out of all states in India, it also has the most transparent government, which means theres a very high chance gave the truth. Human rights watch is a leftist watch group accused of anti-Semitism and anti-Hindu actions, and it is in collusion with the CPI. The Muslim perspective is strivtly political and not motivated by facts. If the guju gov't wanted to pull off a stunt, wouldnt they exaggerate Muslim deaths? Modi is already the most popular CM in India (with a 75% approval rating), he doesnt need to change the facts to keep popularity.Bakaman _Bakatalk 14:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Most Transparent government - That's why the entire world media is after Modi and tha's why his US Visa was revoked and that is why EU envoys sent official demarches to India and that is why you could apply for funds from him , as per last news educational funds worth more than millions of Rupees were spent on Puja and Airconditioners.

Entire world? Hah. Just a bunch of liberal "secularists" and their mouthpiece hate him. And West bengal was where they splurged on AC's. Good thing I read your sources, otherwise misrepresentation would be rampant. Anyways what can Modi do when Mullahs are turning to Wahhabism and creating terror factories Bakaman _Bakatalk 14:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Comments on the block

• It is a complaint and I have the rightly described the nature of edits being done by these two editors.Blocking me gives a wrong signal to them and probably will encourage such concerted POV pushing.
• I have already mentioned somewhere that the organisations supported by these editors have been mentioned as having fascist tendencies by world media.They cant deny that.
• Some examples against whites from User: Bose.

"There is no shortage of hindu-haters among white scholars, or their pinko moonbat lackeys in India. Surely some hindu-hater like Wendy Doniger, Deepa Mehta or Arundhati Roy has a copy of the film on their website. Find it. Then put it up."

• My mention of them as US government lawyer and (not Misplaced Pages's) was their attitude in the article.No comment below is racist in character.This is a false charge and the user who has made that should be blocked.Secondly, they insist on pushing some comments from Daniel Pipes (who is widely known for his Pro-Jewish POV leanings)
• "The world outside the US is irrelevant"

Read the para "Human Rights Watch has been criticized as a fraud" in .See how the edits end."The world outside the US is less relevant"

The complete thread of that discussion is mentioned below

Refrain from inserting original research that is irrelevant to the Babri Mosque article. Plus, the section on Pipes you inserted is tantamount to a character assassination of well-respected and US government appointed political scholar Daniel Pipes. Further perpetration of such a deed is grounds for reporting.Netaji 23:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Reporting as legal??TerryJ-Ho

Is Misplaced Pages a US government property and you their lawyer? I have taken cue from you .In fact, I have been everyone as Anti-Hindu.TerryJ-Ho

Last sentence was meant to say "I have seen everybody tagged Anti-Hindu here"

• In this comment I have not named anyone as Hindu Taliban such inference is just an imagination.I have only given a general example.

TerryJ-Ho 00:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• • My problem in these pages is the frequent usage of the Word Anti Hindu and Pro Marxist to describe anything that does not agree with their POV's.These are strong words and often these are not justified with anything other than an established Hindu Right Wing site.These authors openly proclaim India is Hindu Right wing and all the Hindus outside India are supporters / Members of these fundamentalist Hindu organisations.

You were only blocked for an hour, and I doubt you were even aware of it until the guy told you that you were blocked for (one hour). I take issue with you describing eerything that doesn't subscribe to the Muslim perspective as "fascist" and "POV pushing/revisionist/etc.". Arun Shourie is a respected writer and the ASI is a respected authority on archaeology. Since you censor all objective sources with a supposed "Hindutva" slant, Netaji was justified in asking you to qualify all sources. Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Arun Shourie is a member of BJP and Sangh Parivar and ASI under a BJP government is as suspect as their home minister Advani - who literally sat over files on his own investigationsTerryJ-Ho

All right. Who do you want the Muslim League? The ASI is not motivated by politics, or is everything tied to the indian gov't an "arm of Hindutva hate-mongering anti-secular politics"?Bakaman _Bakatalk 14:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As a department under a ministry chaired by a BJP politician who have maintained their unequivocal agenda of Hindutva - they can not be fair and balanced observers.They are themsleves the players TerryJ-Ho

Where did you get that from? countercurrents? dalitstan? ecumene? IMC? Of couse those are secular (especially IMC and ecumene) so they are the voice of truth.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont think these sites have been used - however these are very mainstream sites and they republish news from very mainstream India and International media.You can not compare Bharatvani or Elst or Oak to them - the research of whom is original.You can compare your Hindu vani sources with Muslim Sites who would be more directly concerned with the Hindu Muslim issues and these Muslim sites have rarely been cited in these articles.TerryJ-Ho

Dalitstan mainstream? Ecumene? Really wow I didn't know anti-India, "secularist", news was mainstream. Perhaps you should read the Pioneer ot TiEBakaman _Bakatalk 14:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

HI there

In case u have'nt noticed you have been accused of Sockpuppetry in form on my user by User:Subhash_bose. Boy he's become paranoid with folks (users) who hold a neutral POV on crimes perpetrated by Sangh Parivar. I guess both of us are equally rational in this regard.

Yes, I wish Baka requested a user check on Neta's behalf now TerryJ-Ho 10:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I know you are acting in concert with Geek. I have removed your name, just out of AGF and nothing more.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You also supported the attack right here .Bakaman _Bakatalk 20:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Could as well be" is quite different to "can be" and the following "or are members ..." qualifies the front part of the sentence ..I think TerryJ-Ho 20:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Who are you people?

ca veut dire quoi? TerryJ-Ho 18:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

CiteCop 18:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Why were you and those other guys leaving messages on my Talk Page? CiteCop 18:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Poking around I see that you've also been targeted by Subhash bose. He's got a real talent for making friends, that one. And why does is his signature different from his username?
CiteCop 22:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have already informed some admins that his signature and pen name both correspond to the noted Indian Freedom fighter Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose but seems they could find a loophole TerryJ-Ho 23:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Its cuz bose died nearly 60 years ago. Not recently deceased or alive.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny

Anwar thought you were Netaji's sock (bottom of page).Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Do not make claims against RSS when they have been refuted by scholarly sources

Removed Defamation template inserted by HKelkar Hkelkar 11:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't post bogus templates on other users.RSS being fascist inspired comes from Verifiable sources - Financial Times and The Hindu.I dont claim responsibility to what they have told.If this warning goes please add it to FT and The Hindu websites.TerryJ-Ho 13:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, RSS's alleged fascist leanings are baseless accusations, based largely on attacks from biased people. The articles prove nothing other than vague associations and circumstantial evidence. There is scholarly evidence backed up by journalistic sources on Indian Express that prove that RSS is not fascist. That carries precedence over editorials.Hkelkar 20:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Response to "bring it on"

Look at your own contribs. Have you done anything constructive your last 50 edits?Bakaman _Bakatalk 18:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Listen, I am not a student like you with a plenty of free time and resources from the university.I suppose you are studying Physics at a State University in the US but I wonder if I have seen any edits on your area of research in Misplaced Pages.Good that you have created some of very intellectually demanding edits on items like Laddu and Peda.Keep it up...and by the way your edits make articles more controversial than informative.TerryJ-Ho 18:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Physics? State University? What a joke. I know exactly what you are saying.Bakaman _Bakatalk 18:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Would you like a Request for comments on your edits? TerryJ-Ho 18:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Those edits were for a stub and template I created. As for RfC, I have alrdy had one frivolous RfC filed against me, dismissed as harrassment during the time Bose wasn't around to "make some noise" like you suggest I do. It failed because it was an unmerited attack kind of like 3 sock cases and a medcab .19:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No, Don't move from general to specific.I simply said I would like to bring a RFC on whether your edits are adding value to the encyclopoedia in general with their pros and cons.Such mechanism I think exists on Misplaced Pages ..we can confirm with admins TerryJ-Ho 19:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Ashfaqulla Khan

Up for AfD. Thought you may want to look into it.Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Cheers TerryJ-Ho

Add those sources to said article. Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi

I liked quotes on your userpage.Impressive.HW 16:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks, Mate.

Interesting Research Paper on Hindutva

Negotiating History

Personal Attack

This edit of yours is unacceptable and a violation of WP:NPA

Another one such and you will be reported.

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.

Shiva's Trident 07:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't play with words. The attack was clearly directed at me as the discussion where you interjected was directed at me. I am allowed to remove vandalism and personal attacks from the talk page. If you persist with this sort of insulting then I will report you. This is your final warning.Shiva's Trident 09:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The above message is again high handed and ascribes something to me that was not intended to mean.Do not put in false interpretations to my statements when there exists none TerryJ-Ho 09:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi

Milligazette, The Hindu article, NPR, . He is Muslim, one of the Ashfaqulla Khan kind instead of the SIMI kind.Bakaman _Bakatalk 14:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Seems he accepts being one from the first interview.So let him be it.Otherwise, you seem to have a very nice definition of Muslims Ashfaqulla type and SIMI type like many say Hindus of Sanghi types and non Sanghi type.TerryJ-Ho

Malegaon

http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:RS#Check_multiple_sources

Specifics of milligazette not confirmed by other sources.Hkelkar 11:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that wikipedia policy is explicit on the point of checking multiple sources. No other non-partisan source verifies the claims by what clearly is an Islamist propaganda mouthpiece.Hkelkar 11:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Policy from http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:RS#Check_multiple_sources :

Because conscious and unconscious biases are not always self-evident, you shouldn't necessarily be satisfied with a single source. Find another one and cross-check. If multiple independent sources agree and they have either no strong reason to be biased, or their biases are at cross purposes, then you may have a reliable account.

Hkelkar 11:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, kindly read WP:Civility regarding this edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hkelkar&curid=6657508&diff=75272789&oldid=75272771

I advise that you take care.Hkelkar 11:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

CfD

Hi -

one can speak of Vedic mathematics, Islamic mathematics and Pythagorean beliefs; those are different kettles of fish. Bellbird 14:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There isn't Islamic Mathematics.It is purely mathematics by Muslim Mathematicians.If a Muslim scientist helps in Nuclear Physics do we call it Islamic Nuclear Sciences TerryJ-Ho 15:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

better to speak of Mathematcians who were Muslims by religion than Muslim Mathematicians in case you read something else in my wordings TerryJ-Ho 15:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How does it matter? The fact is Muslim users may want to know which mathematicians are Muslim and Hindus and Jews and Christians want to know likewise for their religions.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

They can consult a list of Muslim scientists, if their intention is that.When you place a category - that becomes an exaggeration as if being Muslim was most important to them at the expense of other aspects of their life and personality that are not present on that page..Secondly, religion is a very complex issue, say for example , many people place Salman Rushdie as a Muslim writer as he was born in a Muslim family..while he can't be called as Muslim as he does not believe in the fundamental creed of Islam and has been declared apostate...similarly what would you say of Ayaan Hirsi Ali..Is she a Muslim? Many in the west mention her as a Muslim woman..while she may not be one in the eyes of the Muslims themselves..I already mentioned the Bollywood actor Dharmendra - who is legally Muslim but for all other purposes Hindu..Who is going to ensure that such categorisation is correct and who will define what makes them belong to a particular religion??? TerryJ-Ho 18:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I was responding to Bellbird. Note I support all categorizatoins of Mathematicians by religion.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Cite sources that explicitly debunk the use of Hindu as an ethnicity. Ethnicity is a religious/Cultural identity. There is a difference between the term ethnicity and the term "race". By the modern definition Hindus are an ethno-cultural/religious group ergo ethnicity.Hkelkar 03:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Tipu Sultan

Hi - as I'm sure you're aware, there has been some edit warring going on at Tipu Sultan, which has, from what I've seen, lead to some nasty accusations and personal attacks. Of course, these are things that we don't want in Misplaced Pages - we're building an encylcopedia, not making an informal forum for arguement. I have been called upon to mediate for, and provide my opinion on the article in question by User:Hkelkar, and am sending this message to all those to whom I feel it pertains. What I am looking for are reasons for the reversion (or, as I could be seen by some, content blanking) of edits by Hkelkar, which were well sourced (WP:CITE) verifiable (WP:V) and presented in a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), in the hope that with this reasoning, I can turn the article back into a peaceful editting area. As part of this request, I would like you to consider that Hkelkar's submissions were well sourced, and that if there is a counter arguement against them, then that should be included too - the whole contribution should never be deleted. Thanks for taking the time to read this, and please place your reply in a new section on my talk page. Thanks again, Martinp23 13:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

(cur) (last) 01:33, 9 October 2006 Hkelkar (Talk | contribs) (Criticism should be at the end for better flow.)

Why do you throw my name in the fray? I have never edited the article, nor do I even care about Tipu Sultan.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal

Regarding your query to Martinp23, I suggest you look at this .Hkelkar 07:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but no thanks..I am not expecting reply from you.I have already seen that.TerryJ-Ho 12:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack

I will not repeat this warning. If you persist then I will report you.

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Muhammad_bin_Qasim&curid=1145077&diff=81111651&oldid=81110303

Hkelkar 00:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

defwarn on narendra Modi

No tendentious edits on Living people please.See WP:BLP

An important message

This notice has been left for you because another Misplaced Pages user suspects that, perhaps innocently, you may have defamed someone in your contributions. Please recheck your edits. Do not make allegations against someone unless you have provided evidence from a reliable publication, and then make sure you describe the allegations in accordance with our content policies, particularly Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Don't rely on hearsay, rumours, or things you believe without evidence to be facts, and don't use sources to create a novel narrative. Misplaced Pages requires reliable sources for all claims. Please see our policy on biographies of living persons. Comments that defame an individual may leave you open to being sued by them. While Section 230 of the United States Communications Decency Act may protect Misplaced Pages from being sued for defamation, it may not protect the person who posted a defamatory claim on a Misplaced Pages page. The Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees has ruled that: "Where the user has been vandalizing articles or persistently behaving in a disruptive way, data may be released to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers." (Wikimedia privacy policy in full) If you may have inadvertently defamed someone in an article, do two things: If the material is still there, remove it immediately. Leave a note on the administrator's noticeboard saying that you have accidentally included defamatory claims in a named article or articles. Don't repeat the claims. The claim can then be deleted from the page history.

Hkelkar 00:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The above is a template used as a pretext to suppress facts and promote Hindutva versions see talk page of that article TerryJ-Ho 12:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Don;t mess up my talk page

Plus, do not deliberately confuse the issue. I do know a fair bit about the Hindu religion. Not only the Arya Samaaj but Smarta Hindus also reject the authority of post-vedantic Hindu scripture.None of these groups buy into the caste system.However, I am aware of your tendency to attack and defame Hindus across the board and have enough dirt on you to get you banned from editing India-related articles altogether. Unless your bad faith behaviour improves I will have no choice but to have you ArbCommed.Hkelkar 01:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, in case you're confused Kelkar is my father's name, not my mother.I am Jewish by matrilineage.Hkelkar 02:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Shalom, What do you write on your civil papers? TerryJ-Ho As per my belief a religion is what one follows not what one brings in ancestry.You may have your own ideas.I respect them though TerryJ-Ho

Jewishness is established by matrilineage.Plus, I am observant.Hkelkar 10:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't care

I am citing the refs and sources that say that the FATWA (religius declaration) was made by al-Barani and created the Ashraf/Ajlaf/Arzal divide. Also see Ambedkar's book for how disgusting this casteism was. Ambedkar even says it was worse than that among Hindus. This is Ambedkar. The great Babasaheb Ambedkar himself.Hkelkar 10:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You should better care - don't use this definitive language while editing Misplaced Pages.There are others whose views are as respectful and also there are others who care TerryJ-Ho

A fatwa is a fatwa is a fatwa is a fatwa. What's not to know about a fatwa? It's the thingie that clerics like Osama bin-Laden give out to order his henchmen to blow people up. That's all. Fatwa. Simple.Hkelkar 10:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't always go out to Uncle Osama - if you don't find anything else to write.If I write a book called Fatwa i Insaniyat. It means Views on Insaniyat but if I am not a Mufti It does not become a religious document.TerryJ-Ho 10:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOR please.Hkelkar 10:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Giving you an example - is not an original research.If an article is sent for AfD it does not mean - I necessarily consider its authors as permanently malicious.You should better concentrate on page by page basis and not pulling up examples from the graves.It will help in your own standing on Misplaced Pages.TerryJ-Ho 11:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Plus, your edits are all in bad faith.You expect me to trust you after what you pulled in the AfD? Lol!Hkelkar 10:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It is assumed when you edit on WP - you should not distrust others intentions and rake up histories from other articles TerryJ-Ho 12:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that you don't have a systemic anti-Hindu prejudice since you seem to me to be fervently obsessed with bashing Hindus like in the Tipu Sultan thing (another debate I'm winning). Boy, I must be driving you really crazy.First, the mediator turns on you in Tipu Sultan debate, then the AfD of yours gets thrown into the garbage heap. Now you're trying to confuse me with all this nonsense about fatwas-not-being fatwas and I'm not buying the Original Research and blatant violation of so many wikipedia policies I'll have to catalogue them.

It is time you got over this historical baggage.Misuse of historical edit histories n times will be construed as a bad practice.Edits of other editors are not all garbages.Please be reminded of decency TerryJ-Ho

I'll bet you're just itching to get me blocked, huh? Now that's what I call a true "personal Jihad".

Please abstain from judging my motives in a negative light and "Jihad".While you may not get blocked for your edits themselves misuse of these prjudical terms.I don't suffer from any itch either TerryJ-Ho

Well, we'll see what admins say.I am prepared with my case with all the facts. Are you?Hkelkar 11:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell you what

I'll stop editing if you will stop editing. Please come to the talk page and discuss the matter.Plus, please keep your friends at bay here as this kind of warring does not help anybody.You be cool and I'll be cool. Halaal?Hkelkar 11:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't understand that "I'll stop editing if you will stop editing." - this is not a war and I don't have an army of friends here.I don't interact with them.Also I don't appreciate the use of religious terms with sarcasm."Halaal?" - Is it English? You should continue on editing providing valid reasons for your edits and similar for me.While discussions are good things - I am not in favour of discussions where people are already entrenched in their positions..and not willing to budge..I believe there are many editors ready to discuss issues in length like Bhaisaab and Hornplease whose positions are oppositte to you..I will certainly participate on issues and points where I can be of use..You can of course, write your objections and views on my talk page.I am ready to help if I can TerryJ-Ho 11:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

At this rate one of us is going to violate 3RR. Are you sure it's not going to be you?If the article gets protected then it doesn;t help either of us. As it is, we are dangerously close to the precipice and, of course, BhaiSaab will come charging by in a few hours and revert-war as usual (I'm sure that you are counting on that). Bear in mind that, regardless of the technicalities of 3RR, if there is edit-warring I will report BOTh you and BhaiSaab on ANI, citing precedence of behaviour in this article only since both of you have clearly violated the "electric fence" philosophy behind 3RR together on this article before. Anything for the great holy war on an infidel like me, right?Hkelkar 11:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This language Anything for the great holy war on an infidel like me, right - Please stop.TerryJ-Ho 12:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My predictions were 100% proven. Bhaisaab came charging in and ululated his way to getting the article protected.Maybe you should regard me as the Mujaddid or something, eh?Hkelkar 23:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Copy of

Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this.TerryJ-Ho

Interesting Items

• A provocation that I removed
• I am winning a battle
• We will win you will lose
• Looks like the ji(had)g is up
• Pussy's logic

Hindutva is fascism

• It is also true that RSS is a fascist organisation
• Showed the fascist potential of RSS

Caste system's origins in Hindu Religion

5.6.1 India's caste system has strong historic ties to Hinduism. It delineates clear social strata, assigning highly structured religious, cultural, and social roles to each caste and sub-caste. Members of each caste, and frequently sub-caste, are expected to fulfil a specific set of duties (known as dharma) in order to secure elevation to a higher caste through rebirth. Despite longstanding efforts to eliminate the discriminatory aspects of caste, the practice has remained widespread. The Constitution gives the President authority to identify historically disadvantaged castes, Dalits and tribal people (members of indigenous groups historically outside the caste system). These "scheduled" castes, Dalits and tribals are entitled to affirmative action and hiring quotas in employment, benefits from special development funds, and special training programmes. Dalits (formerly known as untouchables) are a scheduled caste occupying the lowest layer of the Hindu caste system.British Home Office

Articles used in Indian Caste System

These articles are for my personal reference,No writing between the lines for textual integrity

• Anti-Caste Home page
• An Anti-caste forum
• From the same site interesting information on how untouchables were used in Gujarat riots
• How State sponsored genocide took place in Gujarat
• "This state-sponsored mass murder is a model for the genocide of Muslims and other religious minorities the Hindu right would like to carry out across the subcontinent. Ashok Singhal, the international president of the VHP, has called it “a successful experiment, which will be repeated all over the country now.”"
• Sikand's book review

Hindutva- Rewriting Hinduism

These articles are for my personal reference,No writing between the lines for textual integrity

• What Hindutva vadis want by rewriting Indian history and theology -

The contentious changes pushed by the Hindutva groups serve three purposes:

• Sanitise Indian history of its gross inequities. Talk about caste only in the past tense, remove anything suggesting that caste still determines the status of people in Indian society, and say that men did not have “more” rights than women, they just had “different” rights.

• Portray Hinduism as very similar to Judaism and Christianity — the politically dominant religions in the US. Erase references to plurality in Hinduism by tricks such as replacing “Hindu gods” with “the Hindu God”, and deleting text that says Hinduism comprises “many beliefs, many forms of worship, and many gods”.

• India as “Pitribhumi” only for Hindus. Delete references to a possible non-indigenous origin of the Indo-Aryans and move the origins of Hinduism back in time, making ‘foreigners’ of all non-Hindu Indians.

• Amartya Sen - Nobel Prize winner on rewriting Indian History
• The rewriting of India's history serves the dual purpose of playing a role in providing a common basis for the diverse membership of the Sangh Parivar, and of helping to get fresh recruits to Hindu political activism, especially from the diaspora. It has thus become a major priority in the politics of Hindutva in contemporary India. Following the electoral victory of coalitions led by the BJP in 1998 and 1999, various arms of the government of India were mobilized in the task of arranging `appropriate' rewritings of Indian history.Friends of South Asia - An editor calls this terrorist sympathisers
• As for the caste system, its social divisive and hence exploitative character is sought to be camouflaged.
• Fascism
• Politics of Rewriting History in India
• The Hindu period is written as the golden period, whereas the Muslim period constitutes an interregnum defined by oppression and hostility - Romila Thapar - Hindutvavadis loathe her for her truthfulness
• The Indus Valley Decipherment Hoax - Inventing History
• Muslims, Christians and Parsis should adopt “the Hindu culture and language” and revert to the Hindu faith or should live “wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation” without any rights or privileges (Golwalkar 1945, 52-53)
• Not much is known about the R.S.S. in the West. After Sept. 11, the Hindu nationalists have presented themselves as reliable allies in the fight against Muslim fundamentalists. But in India their resemblance to the European Fascist movements of the 1930's has never been less than clear. In his manifesto We, or Our Nationhood Defined (1939), Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar, supreme director of the R.S.S. from 1940 to 1973, said that Hindus could profit from the example of the Nazis, who had manifested race pride at its highest by purging Germany of the Jews. According to him, India was Hindustan, a land of Hindus where Jews and Parsis were guests and Muslims and Christians invaders.
• India's missing women
• The sangh parivar has successfully expanded its operations overseas, inviting inºuential and afºuent Indian expatriate communities into its fold.The RSS Web site proudly boasts that “similar work is going on in over 100countries where volunteers are busy organizing Hindus under different organizations.

Finally Why they want to add that Caste has a basis in Muslim religion here - Sulekha.com

"Hindutva groups objected to the prominence given in the texts to the caste system and ‘untouchability,’ which they asserted were not distinguishing features of Hinduism.30 They also tried to make a case that one’s varna status during Vedic times was not hereditary, but was ‘capacity-based.’31

HAF’s attempt to distance Hinduism from the caste system is disingenuous. As our forefathers knew only too well, there is little basis for either of the above assertions, which have been firmly repudiated by leading religious figures like the well-respected late Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati, Shankaracharya of Kamakoti Peetam (who also staunchly defended the ‘dharmic traditions’ of caste, which he felt must be protected and kept live.): “I will give firm proof in support of the view that caste is based on birth and not on the nature or quality of individuals.”32

HAF also complained that “other religions can historically also be associated with practices discarded by modern standards.”33 While that is true, HAF fails to acknowledge that unlike practices like slavery and serfdom, which are universally condemned today, prominent Hindu leaders -– including leaders of RSS and VHP, with whom California Hindutva groups are closely linked -– time and again defend the caste system, and distance themselves from ‘untouchability’ (VHP leader Ashok Singhal recently went to the extent of accusing Muslims of creating the abhorrent system!)34

Do the textbooks overemphasize caste? Hindu elites in the United States may very well feel so; but the books also encourage comparisons with the class system in the U.S. and try to stimulate discussions on whether the caste system was a good way to organize society at the time35. We would be doing a disservice to the students of Indian history, if we did not encourage such debates, without which a proper understanding of contemporary India would be well-nigh impossible.

As for the practice of untouchability, whether sanctioned by Hindu scriptures or not, it is prominently mentioned in the textbooks only because Hinduism’s “modern standards” have failed to discard it; and its coverage in the books, in my view, is entirely consistent with California’s Model Curriculum on Human Rights.56 It is a pity that HAF, which calls itself a Hindu human rights organization, has done precious little to address this massive violation of human rights practiced uninterruptedly for centuries, and chooses instead to defend the ‘human rights’ of Hindu elites."

Please do not corrupt the textual integrity of the above text by writing in between.These are for my refernce.

Articles for consultation: Hindutva and Misplaced Pages as a medium to redefine history

Virtual Warfare: The Internet as the New Site for Global Religious Conflict

• resurgent Hindu fundamentalism (Hindutva) is redefining Hinduism and Hindu identities in a transnational, global context. The global project of Hindutva makes use of new global communication channels, including the Internet, and is apparently espoused by influential sections of the transnational Hindu middle class, especially in the United States. This paper examines a selected sample of Internet sites devoted to the spread of religious and fundamentalist beliefs and ideas particularly relevant to India and transnational Hinduism, and explores the ways in which the Internet is changing the shape of communities and the ways in which they represent one another. The paper puts forth the argument that in the context of globalization, the Net has become an important space for the creation of transnational religious identities. The Net is shaping religion, specifically Hinduism, in distinct ways and is the newest expression of religion's changing face. The battle for souls is being fought on Internet sites. The questions of this paper relate to the modes of representation of "other religions" as revealed particularly by Hindu sites, the ways in which Internet sites garner audiences, and the strategies they adopt to link themselves with both global audiences and local groups. A sociological analysis will reveal the shape of these discourses and link their popularity with the social and political context of globalization, a liberalized economy, and the organization of religious practice in post1990s India."

RSS: A terrorist organisation

Times of India The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is furious with an American think-tank for declaring it a terrorist organisation and lumping it with a host of jihadi organisations and secessionist outfits. RSS shares company with many Kashmiri groups

• TRC is closely connected to the American government. The credibility of this centre vis-a-vis US government can be gauged from the fact that many of its directors and researchers have closely worked with US administration.
• RSS is elusive and shadowy—it is only open to Hindu males – primarily upper caste; it maintains no membership records; it has resisted being registered with the Government of India as a public/charitable trust; it has no bank accounts and pays no income tax.
• the world's attention has properly been focused on the violence of Islamic extremism, but there are also major violent trends in Hindu extremism that have largely been ignored in the United States

Having the last comment does not mean that the debates have been won

Some editors here have the habit of leaving their comments as the last one to ensure that if a third party sees them - they will believe their arguments have won.Some of these are persistent editors with a lot of free time.One has to ensure to see through the discussions and not be duped TerryJ-Ho 11:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal Attack

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.

diff (in edit summary): http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ATerryJ-Ho&diff=83072778&oldid=83072077

Hkelkar 21:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

::That is not a WP:PA - it does not apply on misuse of the templates TerryJ-Ho 10:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The Think Tank Link

Is very interesting:

It is ..The Hindu one tops it all.As it is the largest supposedly cultural organisation.Islamic organisations are all well known (for their activities) and they don't hide behind the facade of Cultural organisations TerryJ-Ho 10:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

According to them, Known terrorist groups Operating in India:

Muslim:25

Christian:4

Communist:5

Hindu:1

Per: http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=113#terrorism

Organizations who dispute this assertion: Muslim:0 Christian:0 Communist:1 (Maoists) Hindu:1 (Despite the fact that the Hindutvaadis suck at publicity and the Islamofascists excel at it). http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1123740,prtpage-1.cms

Hindutuvavadis are the champions - in fact there is a list of research that has gone into the field of how the Hindutvavadis exploit the media for their petty ends TerryJ-Ho

ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhh!What great WP:NOR. I enjoy refuting you my friend.You seem not to understand the concept of "Gracious in defeat". I have an Urdu word for you: Tehezeeb .Hkelkar 23:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Graciousness to disgraced does not apply.I don't write like you mate with such long ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhs and dear watson this tells greatly how pissed off you are....Tehzeeb does not apply to BeTehzib..it is extended to people with refined outlook..By the way you should remember the base of Misplaced Pages and that is WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A BATTLEFIELD..Stop using words like Victory,Defeat,Jihad and Crusade,Show me where do you prove from your own point that this is not a WP:NOR - "Despite the fact that the Hindutvaadis suck at publicity and the Islamofascists excel at it" and remember that you have already got the last warning on Incivility.TerryJ-Ho 09:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm. I smell a pattern here, eh (Muslim=25)? Thanks for the ref man!I'll get a subscription from the University. I'm sure I can get a lot of juicy-juicy dirt here.Hkelkar 22:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Get one.It will help you TerryJ-Ho

Oh, yes. I will.Hkelkar 23:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Look at the references...

The word "Caste" is really mentioned. Read WP:NOR again wrt your edits.Hkelkar 16:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Article referenced at number 2 - has not a single refence to word "Caste"

What do the artcles say?TerryJ-Ho

Which article are you talking about exactly?Hkelkar 16:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No use of the word Caste in this article that claims to support "There is also a caste system among Indian Muslims" .Secondly, even this source is suspect.Article is written by a MD Doctor whose credentials are not established as a sociologue.Read WP:NORyourself TerryJ-Ho 16:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

From reference:

The Muslims in India are categorized into two distinct classes based on their origins.This is similar to the caste system of Hinduism (so called Varnashrama)

However, you make a valid point concerning the doc.I think it's ok to get rid of the ref as we have clearly established that Muslims do have a caste system.Hkelkar 16:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

::Which article states above?Which Muslims have caste system.Do all of them?TerryJ-Ho

Take a look at the talk page of the article. A discussion was initiated as to the caste system in Latin America.The ref is there as a stop gap measure. I am getting books from the library that clearly detail the Latin American Caste System, which is why I put up an expansion tag.Plus, the JSTOR ref backs up the other citation and you need to establish that the source is not reliable.Hkelkar 17:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to get too far help is at hand with Encyclopedia Brittanica: Your edits are based on a wrong premise..In Latin America Caste does not correspond to the traditional use of Caste in English.Since the word is spanish it is extensively used to refer to racial segregation.See Encycolpedia Brittanica

<a title="All about caste on Britannica.com" href="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9020678/caste">Information from Encyclopædia Britannica about caste</a> TerryJ-Ho

refs for Latino castes:

1. Caste in a peasant society by Marvin Tumin
2. Human tradition in colonial Latin America by K. Andrien (establishes history)
3. Born in Blood and Fire: A Concise History of Latin America by J Chasteen
4. Latin American Civilization: History and Society, 1492 to the Present B. Keen (clearly mentions caste system)
5. Race and Nation in Modern Latin America by James Herriot et al. Talks about caste system today

I will get these books and expand the section.Hkelkar 17:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You can expand anything but the real problem is that you fail to understand that these are different concepts.We have to go with the most accepted framework of caste or define each one differently as they mean and not mix all of them TerryJ-Ho

The article is titled Caste so all Castes need mentioning in all countries, not just the people you want to kill.Hkelkar 17:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

But then define them separately - bring in a dismbiguation page rather than bring an apology of the Hindu Caste system TerryJ-Ho

Not with your flagrant WP:NOR violations dost.Hkelkar 17:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Where? TerryJ-Ho

Pretty much everywhere actually, against consensus besides.Hkelkar 18:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I am extending to you an official apology for your perceptions of incivility on my part. I expect an apology from you for your "Shut up" quip.Hkelkar 21:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)