Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:03, 25 October 2006

I don't challenge the definition of Hindustani--and would like to help build the entry on it--but to say that Saare Jahan Say Achcha is written in Hindustani rather than Urdu. Isn't that inaccurate?--iFaqeer 20:50, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't want to do anything, because there are certainly those who know Hindi/Urdu better than I, but I think there were a few mistakes. Writing out all the unicode by hand, as I have done many a time myself, I can understand this happening. I don't want to correct anything, only to find out it is some archaic or literary style. Was हिन्दुस्तान ever really हिन्दोस्तां or ەندوستاں؟ or गुलिस्तान -> गुलसितां/گلستاں؟ though? Both being Persian words, I should feel safe changing these nasalisations, but I don't have a copy of the song in front of me. The simple English I don't personally like, but realize a proper transliteration doesn't help the normal person any more than Devanagari or Naskh! But than again I still like:

Sāre jahāṁ (or jahā) se accha, hindustān hamāra...

The Devanagari izaafat is always weird, but does there really need to be a '\'? I have seen this rendering many times though and so its more of a stylistic quandary than an actual problem  ;-)

Whether or not anyone wants to engage in the old Hindi/Urdu debate (leave me out!) this should probably be written in Urdu naskh as well. I'm no poetic scholar, and am not sure off the top of head if this meets the metrical requirements, but this sounds like it is some kind of good ol' Urdu she'er to my novice ears. But when writing:

سارے جەان اچەا هندوستان همارا should be

سارے جەاں اچها ەندوستان ەمارا ەم بلبليں ەيں اس كى، يە گلستان ەمارا ... and so on.

(I'm noticing the choti he's, do chashmi he's and nun-e ghunna's.)

Khirad 10:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Translation Incomplete?

Can someone who knows meanings of Urdu/Hindustani words used here complete the english translation?

Ashish G 19:38, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

issues

1. The poem is entitled 'Tarana Hindi,' not 'Saare Jahan Se Acha' 2. It is in Urdu, not Hindi. Iqbal did not compose any Hindi poetry. 3. Its an absolute travesty that the text of the poem has been written out in Hindi script and not in the original Urdu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kabuli (talk • contribs)

Yes, I agree that there should be Urdu lyrics (before the Devanagari) since the song was written in Urdu, not even Hindoustani, but it could be interpreted as that. Someone, please add the Urdu lyrics, unless anyone has problems with the Urdu. And also, I'm gonna mention that it's also called Tarana Hindi.

Basawala 19:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I added the lyrics in Urdu, and I'm about to tinkle with the weird transliteration, since it spells hamaara in different ways. Basawala 19:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Devanagari transliteration

Why do we have the devanagari transliteration? How is it significant? Sarvagnya 05:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The original was written in Urdu script, which really should be the only script used, but someone finds a reference that says the song is sung by Hindi(as opposed to Urdu)-speaking schoolchildren, then they might have a reason to put the Hindi lyrics here. And also, I have noticed some differences between the Urdu and Devanagari lyrics, of which the Urdu was most like the transliteration, so I'm guessing that the Devanagari lyrics were faulty anyways. Mar de Sin 12:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

With this argument Roman Script should also be removed ? I think previous comment gives a good answer to Sarvagnya's question. Also Devanagari is the script used by Hindi, which is a national language of India about which this song is. And a large number of people do recognize and love the song in India in this script. --dpk011

• The transliteration in Roman alphabets is there because this is the English Misplaced Pages and English uses the Roman alphabet.
• Devanagari is not of any significance here because

a)The song is not in a language which uses the Devanagari script.

b)This is not the Hindi(or some other language) wikipedia where Devanagari happens to be the script Hindi uses.

• Hindi might be "A" national language of India, but is by no stretch of imagination the ONLY national language. Many non-hindi speakers recognize(write and read/sing) this song in their own scripts - be it kannada or manipuri or oriya or assamese. At that rate we would have to have transliterations in every language around the world because, who knows there might be some guy in Indonesia who likes this song and writes and reads it in his own Indonesian script.
• In other words, both Hindi and Devanagari are insignificant as far as this article is concerned.

Sarvagnya 22:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ Sarvagnya. Hindi is a common language in India and I myself have learnt this song from a Hindi book. And you can safely assume that there are more Indians who understand Devanagari script than those who understand the Nasta'liq. Please restore the Devnagari lyrics for the benefit of people like me (who I think are definitely more than you can count). Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:220.225.53.35 (talk • contribs)

First of all, Hindi is not as common a language in India as you think or have been led to believe. And more importantly, this is not India. This is the Misplaced Pages and not any Hindi Prachar Sabha. It runs according to its own policies not according to the whims and fancies of the Hindi speaking Indian. Under Misplaced Pages policy, there is no place for Hindi in this article. And in any case, you say you've already learnt it from a Hindi book. So people like you can also do the same. Sarvagnya 21:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The same useless argument the user above made on Talk:Vande Mataram and Talk:Jana Gana Mana. What's really insignificant is your OR on the influence of Hindi in India. It is the Official Language of India. It stays.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Whether hindi is the opeesial language of India or Timbuktu or Somalia is irrelevant and totally besides the point. WP runs on its own policies and not according to your whims and fancies. This is an article about an Urdu song on English Misplaced Pages. Hindi has no business squatting on this article. Sarvagnya 01:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. it doesnt run to the whims and fancies of Belgaum either . All you have cited is your own irrelevant hatred of Hindi, and tried to whitewash Hindi from the pages of the three "national" songs of India. And in response to your edit summary, its absolutely relevant to link this with Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana, since you've gone against consensus to try and further these DMK style anti-Hindi crusades.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Hindi transliteration should be retained.Its high time to take a strict action against sarvagnya who's creating a chaos and pushing his POV wherever he goes.His posts here clearly show his hatred towards Hindi,i think he should be warned so as to use defamatory lingo against any language.

Mahawiki 14:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Just one comment, this is different from the case of Jana Gana Mana or Vande Mataram. The former was adopted by the Parliament in its Hindi version (as the references have been shown to us), and the latter is really a mix of Sanskrit and Bengali, in which case, Devanagari scrip (not Hindi language) was accepted after a long discussion.

However, in this case, it is an Urdu song. As far as I know, Urdu is one of the languages with official status, just as Bengali, Tamil, etc. have in India. Unless the Devanagari script usage has some sort of official sanction (as in the case of Jana Gana Mana), I think sticking to the original script should be the best option. Of course, if there IS some official decision to use Devanagari script, it would be a different matter (which would be interesting ... I think Bengali's phonetic difference is what prompted the parliament to adopt it in the Hindi version, to make it easier for the majority of non-Bengali Indians ... this is not the case with this song). --Ragib 02:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Because Hindi and Urdu are hard to distinguish, there are many that would call this song a Hindi one (i.e. Yahoo Answers). I don't think there is any harm keeping the Hindi script on here and I think it should stay per Bakaman and dpk011. Thanks! --Anupam 22:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Anupam. I would also like to add that SJSA is an important Indian national song, even if it's unofficial. In India, it's popular among both Hindi and Urdu speakers, which is why it should have both scripts. Mar de Sin 19:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Controversy

I think if we'll talk about the controversy surrounding Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana I think we should also mention the controversy surrounding this song since it was penned by the ideological patron of Pakistan. I have no personal views on this, I'm just stating facts. --Antorjal 17:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

protected until script issues resolved

Wow, this article has sure seen a lot of see-saw reverts today and yesterday!!! I've protected it until the warring parties find a consensus. Edit warring is evil. Please cool down and get a consensus on the script issues. Thank you. --Ragib 04:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, Basawala, myself, Anupam, dgk, mahawiki, and an anon IP support Hindi. Sarvagnya and another user (who is also Kannada) do not and abuse popups to keep the article Hindi-free to allay their fears of a "Hindi Prachar Sabha" that supposedly exists.Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the point is not about how many support Hindi and how many oppose. Point is why and how Hindi transliteration is required for a Urdu song in English language wikipedia. - KNM 04:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Sarvagnya and all other anti-Hindi memebers are adviced to stop spreading hatred against any language.just like wikipedia is not Hindi-prachar sabha its not hindi virodh sabha either.I do agree that Hindi is not our sole national language but it is a fact that it is the official and main link language of India . Morever i hope all know that Colloquially and linguistically, the distinction between the Urdū and Hindi is nearly meaningless.Apart from all this reasons what harm will it do to anyone if we include hindi transliteration? Mahawiki 05:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

At first, I request all the editors to assume good faith on other editors, especially when the effort is towards a consensus. No one is spreading hatred against any language. Questioning of inclusion of a transliteration is definetely not hatred against that language. It is only an effort in maintaining WP:NPOV in the article.

Coming back to the content dispute, the question is about the inclusion of transliteration in Devanagari script. I request the reasons for this inclusion. Please note, the song is a Urdu song, and this is English language wikipedia. Including the transliteration in Devanagari script or in any other script is against WP:NPOV.

"What harm will it do?" can be logically applied to all the languages and all the scripts. Again, the answer is WP:NPOV. Thanks. - KNM 16:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Since this song is considered a national song of India, although unoffical, and it is sung by both Urdu and Hindi-speaking people in the Hindi-Urdu language, I think Devanagari transliteration is rather pertinent and should be included in this article. Mar de Sin 19:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• There is nothing like an 'unofficial' national song. Moreover, this song is sung not only by Hindi and Urdu speaking people but also by Kannada, Telugu, Tamil, Bengali etc speaking people. So if Hindi transliterations can be included, in all fairness, Kannada, Telugu, Bengali etc., transliterations should also be included.
• Also, even if we were to assume that this is indeed a 'national' song whether official or unofficial, that still is no reason to include Hindi transliterations on Misplaced Pages.
• Knowing Hindi or not knowing Hindi is not a yardstick to measure patriotism(to India) by any stretch of imagination. A person can be ignorant of Hindi and still be a patriot of the highest order.
• Once again, please keep WP free of any nationalistic compulsions of India or being Indian. WP has nothing to do with those things. Sarvagnya 20:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Once again, a splurge of useless rants. Consensus by Hindi and Urdu users has indicated that both translations are ok because the divide between Hindi and Urdu is not defined. There is somewhat of a difference between Kannada and Hindi (a large one). Sarvagnya, bringing the whole Kannada Koota in this argument doesn't show much about your consensus skills. KNM, how does NPOV figure into this, there is no POV except from the regionalistic tendencies of Marathi and Kannada users, who have taken their war for Belgaon onto every India related page on wiki.Bakaman _Bakatalk 23:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a clear difference between Devanagari script and Urdu script. The song is of Urdu language and hence Urdu transliteration is required. This is English language Misplaced Pages, and hence English transliteration is required. Hence, any transliteration apart from Urdu and English will affect the NPOV of the article.

I request not to try deviating the discussion by talking about "regionalistic tendencies", "Belgaon", "Kannada koota" etc. Usage of "splurge of useless rants" is definetely uncalled for in a healthy discussion.

Please focus on the consensus only for the current issue. That will help unprotecting the article. - KNM 00:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Its well used. I am focusing on consensus, while Sarvagnya rants about "Consensus by mob", "Hindi is not a national language" and other canards. Kannada Koota is a term used for a convention of Kannada people (,,, etc.), its much like the fictional "Hindi prachar Sabha" Sarvagnya talks about. How is it POV? The only POV is Kannada users (even Urdu users support the use of Hindi) violating NPOV themselves, see ethnic bias. I have no problem with 'constructive dialogue just not trolling by users obviously here to do the bidding of another user.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I've thought about this and I feel that Sarvagnya is right. I retract my earlier statements (But, I am not deleting them).

Why do we specifically need a Hindi translation, when we have an English one available? A possible reason is that those who know English & Hindi might want to read it in Hindi and feel good about their country i.e., assuming they are Indians. But, most Misplaced Pages users are not. So, I conclude saying that a Hindi version is needed only to promote Indian patriotism. This is Misplaced Pages, not a school text-book. Any other reason? --220.225.53.35 23:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Please read Anupam's comment below.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

discussions removed by KNM

Sarvagnya and all other anti-Hindi memebers are adviced to stop spreading hatred against any language.just like wikipedia is not Hindi-prachar sabha its not hindi virodh sabha either.I do agree that Hindi is not our sole national language but it is a fact that it is the official and main link language of India . Morever i hope all know that Colloquially and linguistically, the distinction between the Urdū and Hindi is nearly meaningless.Apart from all this reasons what harm will it do to anyone if we include hindi transliteration? Mahawiki 05:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop your empty rhetoric and if possible give a justification for having hindi/devanagari script there. Like I've already said before, this is an Urdu song and the English wikipeidia and the use of Hindi here is superfluous and meaningless. Sarvagnya 06:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the last time i am requesting u to tone down ur language.If u read my post clearly its not rhetoric and with a justification of why Hindi transliteration should be used here.

• I do agree that Hindi is not our sole national language but it is a fact that it is the official and main link language of India
• Colloquially and linguistically, the distinction between the Urdū and Hindi is nearly meaningless
• The song is ewually popular with Hindi speakers.In fact song is referred as tarana-e-Hindi

Since u want to remove the transliteration, onus is upon YOU to justify why to remove it?According to me u r just showcasing ur hatred against Hindi.Morever there's a consensus to include Hindi transliteration.Remember, this is not hindi virodh sabha. Thanks. Mahawiki 06:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

None of the reasons you give is acceptable on WP. WP runs according to its own rules. It does not run according to the Indian constitution. Moreover, this song has no special sanction even under the Indian constitution. This is just another song and it happens to be in Urdu. As for Hindi people singing it, I know it for a fact that people from all over India(of all languages, castes and creed) sing it. That doesnt mean we need to infest this article with transliterations of all the 200 odd languages in India. Also stop citing sources like this and this. They are somebody's private blogs and are worthless as far as WP is concerned. See WP:Citing Sources Sarvagnya 07:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

But what about consensus among editors here to include Hindi transliteration?I am sure none of us are taking help of sockpuppets to achive the consensus. Mahawiki 07:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages is NOT a democracy for like minded people to vote and push their POV. Misplaced Pages is about truth and it has its own policies and rules to ensure that people work towards that end. Like I said, the Indian constitution's writ doesnt run on the Misplaced Pages. Sarvagnya 07:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• As for your accusations of sockpuppetry, I treat it with the contempt I reserve especially for you and your ilk(read arya, baka). I encourage you to go and file your complaint with any authority you want - even Jimbo Wales LOL. :D Sarvagnya 07:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have not accused u of sockpuppetry here.I am talking about the consensus.Mahawiki
• ::Is that so???Then why did u talked about consensus thing HERE..? (Sarvagnya: And secondly, the consensus on this page seems to be that the Urdu translation is not required..) Any comments? Mahawiki 07:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Consensus based on WP policies is different from consensus of a mob. Sarvagnya 07:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

And I didnt knew ur so concerned about WP policies and rule..especially when ur removing official warnings and the non-obscene message which u dont like?Again do u remember u had adviced me once against removing official warnings?(see the link) Mahawiki

Sarvagnya, invading the page with all the Kannada users, is a mob, not inviting Urdu and Hindi users for dialogue. As for your suggested use of Tamil, while I am flattered, I dont see the need for Tamil, especially because Tamil and Sanskrit diverged over 8k years ago, and Tamil bears no resemblance to Urdu, and little resemblance to Hindi.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

So are you suggesting that the criteria for adding a particular script in an article in wiki should be whether that script bears any resemblance with the original language or not? Gnanapiti 00:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm just being curious here as I'm fairly new to wiki. Should the native languages of all participating users also be considered while discussing a particular article in talk page? Does that have any effect on the article at the end? I'm not yet completely familiar with wiki policies. Gnanapiti 00:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course not, my native language is not Hindi, its Trivandrumite Tamil, and in particular one group of users is trolling to remove Hindi, to forward their own ethnic hatreds onto the page. Look at the sources saying that Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani are 1 related language.,,,,,. Of course violating WP:OR, consensus, and WP:3RR are tactics one can use to remove Hindi, since you obviously have no case.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I am a proponent of keeping both Urdu and Hindi scripts on this article. First of all, there are many people in India that refer to Saare Jahan Se Achcha as a Hindi song (and learn it as such). As Bakaman stated, Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani are very closely related languages. That is why Misplaced Pages articles employ one article for many topics relating to Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani (i.e. Hindi-Urdu grammar, Uddin and Begum Urdu-Hindustani Romanization, Hindustani orthography, Hindustani (Hindi-Urdu) word etymology, etc.) A similar situation involves the scripts in Bollywood related articles. While Bollywood films may be called Hindi cinema, there are many who claim Urdu to be their mother tongue who watch and understand these movies, calling them Urdu movies. That is why Bollywood articles use both the Devanagai and Perso-Arabic Script (i.e. Fanaa, Sarkar, Amitabh Bachchan, etc.) In the same fashion, Saare Jahan Se Achcha may be an Urdu song, however there are many individuals who claim Hindi to be their mother tongue who understand this song, calling it a Hindi one. Putting Kannada, Telugu, Tamil, Bengali, etc. scripts on the article would be entirely different because they are unrelated to Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani, which has been established as one language by many. For example many sources such as infoplease, Tigerx, and several others classify them together when giving populations statistics of speakers. Not to mention, linguists count them together as one language. In light of these facts, I think it is best to retain both Urdu and Hindi on this article. Thanks for your time and understanding.

--Anupam 04:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed sad to see the talkpage of such a great song being "hijacked" (Baka's words) by fanatics like Sarvagnya and his troupe of "Kannadizers" (NaveenBM, KNM, Kannadabadi, etc.). These people have no real good faith, just want to malign other languages. Anupam has provided some really good citations but Sarvagnya just ignores them and goes on with his blah..blah ! It's high time genuine editors start ignoring his childish behaviour. -AryaRajyaमहाराष्ट्र 17:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are we still entertaining them?I think,with Anupam's citations this issue has been sorted out.Please ignore them.If they create more havoc call in admins or post the details on wikipedia noticeboard.

Mahawiki 18:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree totally with Anupam. I think wherever the Urdu or Hindi transliteration is on a particular article, the other should be there too. They are the same spoken language but are written differently. There is no harm in having an extra script. Many people can only read one of these scripts so it will be better to have both. Gizza 05:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Makes no sense. It is not for us to decide whether H and U are the same or not. Linguists have classified it as different languages, so we will have to go with that. Also, even on wikipedia we have different articles for both languages. Mirza Ghalib is always referred to as an Urdu poet. Munshi Premchand is referred to as Hindi. So the distinction is very clear. Even the author of this song is known as an Urdu poet not a Hindi poet. His mother tongue was Urdu not Hindi. Urdu and Hindi even have different scripts.
• And moreover, please remember that this is the english wikipedia. If you want hindi script in this article, why dont you go to urdu wikipedia and add hindi script to all the articles? Or why dont you go to hindi wikipedia and add Urdu script to all the articles?? Sarvagnya 21:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry you have no sources to back up your claims. No one cares what you think about Hindi and Urdu, its quite obvious you are against Hindi for trivial reasons and are repeating the same bakwaas over and over again. Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)