Talk:Collaboration in the German-occupied Soviet Union: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 00:55, 16 April 2018 edit198.84.253.202 (talk) →Requested move 15 April 2018 ← Previous edit		Revision as of 01:48, 16 April 2018 edit undoMy very best wishes (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users56,376 edits →Requested move 15 April 2018: Strong support. All these pages should be renamed along the lines "Collaboration of country X citizens with Nazi occupiers"; blaming ethic groups is actually a racist ideaNext edit →
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	*'''Oppose'''. As has been pointed out already by AjaxSmack, above, the title of this article indicates that it is expected to be solely about collaboration within the ]. As for an article potentially titled ], as has also been pointed out by Dekimasu, above, such an overly-broad main header would propose to be all-inclusive for all Soviet republics, rather than feature a title analogous to ], ], ] or, for that matter, other such articles, for instance, ].    ] <small>] • ]</small> 22:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)		*'''Oppose'''. As has been pointed out already by AjaxSmack, above, the title of this article indicates that it is expected to be solely about collaboration within the ]. As for an article potentially titled ], as has also been pointed out by Dekimasu, above, such an overly-broad main header would propose to be all-inclusive for all Soviet republics, rather than feature a title analogous to ], ], ] or, for that matter, other such articles, for instance, ].    ] <small>] • ]</small> 22:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
	::Except that countries like Luxembourg, France, Poland, etc, were actually independent entities, and not geographic divisions of a larger country (in this case, the Soviet Union). Therefore, we should, like with other countries, have an article about collaboration in the whole of the Soviet Union. Anyway, the article in it's current state is more about Soviet collaboration than it is about collaboration within the Russian SSR. ] (]) 00:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)		::Except that countries like Luxembourg, France, Poland, etc, were actually independent entities, and not geographic divisions of a larger country (in this case, the Soviet Union). Therefore, we should, like with other countries, have an article about collaboration in the whole of the Soviet Union. Anyway, the article in it's current state is more about Soviet collaboration than it is about collaboration within the Russian SSR. ] (]) 00:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

			*'''Support'''. ] is fine because it is clearly about citizens of certain country, not about an ]. The idea of collaboration of certain ethnic groups (rather than countries or individuals) with Nazi was the basis for Stalinist ]. We should not follow such logic. <u>All these pages should be renamed along the lines "Collaboration of country X citizens with Nazi occupiers"</u>. Consider ]. This is good title except it should probably be ]. Ukraine, Belorussia and Russian Federation were parts of the Soviet Union at the beginning of WWII. Therefore, all of them should be merged in the single page about the "Soviet collaboration", or "Collaboration on the Soviet territory" with Nazi. ] (]) 01:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

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Requested move 14 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:36, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Russian collaborationism with the Axis powers → Russian collaboration with Nazi Germany – There was no collaboration with Italy, and this article doesn't discuss Japan at all. Let's make it more precise, just like for example pages on Luxembourgish collaboration with Nazi Germany. (In either case, grammar change by removing -ism is needed too). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:49, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Support certainly remove the ism. Not completely sure about the absence of Italy and Japan from article, that may be a result of an unfinished article. But if it's not then the move is justified. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:05, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Support. Italy and Japan don't even feature. Any Russian collaboration with Japan or Italy would be entirely different in nature. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:48, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Support per nomination, In ictu oculi and SmokeyJoe. Uniformity of Misplaced Pages titling forms is desirable in general and, when sensitive topics are discussed as part of series, such uniformity is desirable in particular. A concurrent RM is presently active at Talk:Byelorussian collaboration with the Axis powers#Requested move 14 March 2018. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:27, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Support per nom, because that is exactly what it was. Poeticbent talk 04:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Support It is a more natural and accurate title. Shadow007 (talk) 00:14, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What is the subject?

Does the page describe Soviet collaboration or exclusively Russian?Xx236 (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2018

It has been proposed in this section that Collaboration in the German-occupied Soviet Union be renamed and moved to Soviet collaboration with Nazi Germany.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Russian collaboration with Nazi Germany → Soviet collaboration with Nazi Germany – Only logical, since the first sentence of the article says "Soviet citizens", and titles need to reflect accurately the content of the article. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:06, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Other SSRs have their own articles on this topic: see Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany. To move this to "Soviet" would envelop those articles. Dekimasuよ! 01:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, then this article needs to be rewritten (because it is confusing, making much more mention of collaboration in the Soviet Union - only the specific examples are purely "Russian"), and possibly, a proper overreaching article needs to be created (if we don't settle on moving this one and expanding it). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Either the article could be moved as proposed and the Ukrainian and Byelorussian articles can be liked from the intro, or if the article is not moved, the intro can specify that its content is limited to the Russian SFSR. The former would be easier as both the article's text and sources refer to "Soviet Nationalities" &c. — AjaxSmack 03:22, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment - judging by the title, at first I thought the article was about Stalin's collaboration with Hitler. I suggest moving the article to Collaboration of Soviet citizens with Nazi Germany, to make clear the article is about the action of private citizens, not of governments. -Zanhe (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Oppose. As has been pointed out already by AjaxSmack, above, the title of this article indicates that it is expected to be solely about collaboration within the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. As for an article potentially titled Collaboration of Soviet citizens with Nazi Germany, as has also been pointed out by Dekimasu, above, such an overly-broad main header would propose to be all-inclusive for all Soviet republics, rather than feature a title analogous to Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany, Byelorussian collaboration with Nazi Germany, Moldavian collaboration with Nazi Germany or, for that matter, other such articles, for instance, Luxembourgish collaboration with Nazi Germany. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Except that countries like Luxembourg, France, Poland, etc, were actually independent entities, and not geographic divisions of a larger country (in this case, the Soviet Union). Therefore, we should, like with other countries, have an article about collaboration in the whole of the Soviet Union. Anyway, the article in it's current state is more about Soviet collaboration than it is about collaboration within the Russian SSR. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Support. Luxembourgish collaboration with Nazi Germany is fine because it is clearly about citizens of certain country, not about an ethnic group. The idea of collaboration of certain ethnic groups (rather than countries or individuals) with Nazi was the basis for Stalinist deportations after WWII. We should not follow such logic. All these pages should be renamed along the lines "Collaboration of country X citizens with Nazi occupiers". Consider Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. This is good title except it should probably be Collaboration with Nazi in German-occupied Poland. Ukraine, Belorussia and Russian Federation were parts of the Soviet Union at the beginning of WWII. Therefore, all of them should be merged in the single page about the "Soviet collaboration", or "Collaboration on the Soviet territory" with Nazi. My very best wishes (talk) 01:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

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