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Revision as of 21:09, 20 April 2018 editMrX (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers97,648 edits →Request concerning Anythingyouwant: ce← Previous edit Revision as of 21:13, 20 April 2018 edit undoOnceinawhile (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers49,716 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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:*I'd be good with that. The ban formulation should preferably contain explicit advice about how constructive editing in other areas, as well as in the ], would make an appeal more likely to be viewed favorably. ] &#124; ] 14:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC). :*I'd be good with that. The ban formulation should preferably contain explicit advice about how constructive editing in other areas, as well as in the ], would make an appeal more likely to be viewed favorably. ] &#124; ] 14:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC).
:*I think that’s a better option then immediately jumping to a full block. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em">]+]</u> 17:44, 20 April 2018 (UTC) :*I think that’s a better option then immediately jumping to a full block. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em">]+]</u> 17:44, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

==No More Mr Nice Guy==
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

===Request concerning No More Mr Nice Guy===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Onceinawhile}} 21:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|No More Mr Nice Guy}}<p>{{ds/log|No More Mr Nice Guy}}
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->

;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] and ]

; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.-->
# removes Q2 from an ] that he had been . No discussion raised on talk.
# Removes again, again with no talk discussion
# Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
# Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
# Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing

; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any :
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.-->
# 72-hour ARBPIA-related block

;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. -->
*Previously blocked under ARBPIA

; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
*These five edits do not cross 1RR, but they constitute a clear and consistent edit-war. Given this editor's long term experience, I would have hoped they could have relied on discussion instead of trying to force through a new status quo.
*Whilst these edits were on a ], and not an article, the general restriction clearly refers to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict", not just "any article".

; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request, and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->

<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
===Discussion concerning No More Mr Nice Guy===
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
====Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy====

====Statement by (username)====
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->

===Result concerning No More Mr Nice Guy===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
*

Revision as of 21:13, 20 April 2018

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    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by iantresman

    Appeal is declined. There is not a clear and substantial consensus to overturn the sanction. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    iantresman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Iantresman (talk) 14:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
    Sanction being appealed
    Topic ban from the subject of "plasma physics and astrophysics", imposed at Iantresman logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2012#Pseudoscience
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator

    Statement by iantresman

    I would like my topic banned to be considered for lifting. Since my ban in 2012:

    • I have had one appeal declined over a year ago, and this is summarised in my deferred appeal in Dec 2017 (described in the "Amendment request: Pseudoscience, Notes to @Newyorkbrad ).
    • I have received no other sanctions from over 4000+ edits
    • I have upheld the 1RR restriction on me, and will continue to do so
    • I have also endured the current 4429 day topic ban without further penalty, despite being on a self-imposed 0RR at the time, thought that I had followed Discretionary sanctions guidance at the time to "adopt Misplaced Pages’s communal approaches" in my editing and discussed the matter on the WT:IRS noticeboard
    • I have made efforts to improve my editing, reaching out to Timotheus Canens for advice , and to the Help Desk,, and the Teahouse (all without success)
    • I am still open to suggestions on how I can improve my editing behavior, should there be a disagreement.

    Since my time as a Wiki editor

    • I have made over 21,000 edits, of which 96.8% are still live a retention rate that is as good as all but two active members of the Arbitration Committee
    • I appreciate ban avoidance more than most, having endured a 1,515 day Community Ban (given without a single diff in evidence, and with such short deliberation that it contributed to the banning of the Community Sanctions Noticeboard that was instigated by an editor who was described as having misled the community by using multiple socks abusively.)
    • I have also uploaded over 60 files to Misplaced Pages, over 100 images to Commons created over 900 new pages, edited over 4000 pages (on average 5 times each), and have been directly involved in the attainment of 4 good articles (one subsequently reassessed)
    • I am always open to discussion with any editor regarding my editing

    Notes

    • @Sandstein: I don't know what the reasons were for my ban, as they don't appear to have been stated in the "Result concerning Iantresman". The original poster mentioned (a) Wikilawyering, (b) that I "continued to argue", (c) "no consensus", (d) "Pushing", (e) "civilly POV push this fringe science", (f) "adding a burden on other editors". The banning editor mentioned that "I think the complaint has merit", but it wasn't clear to me whether he was referring to all criticisms, or whether there was something specific.
    I am happy to "address these concerns", but I don't think you want me to comment on every accusation against me, so your guidance would be appreciated.
    I would like to contribute to articles on plasma and astronomy which were covered by my topic ban; I have University Certificates in Astronomy, Cosmology and Radio Astronomy from UClan and Jodrell Bank at MU (scans available on request). I also want to contibute to more contentious articles, such as the one on Plasma Cosmology. The evidence suggests I am a good editor in these subjects, eg. I am the top contributor (even after a five year absence) to the article on Plasma Physics Wolf Effect and Pinch (plasma) Birekland Currents Critical ionization velocity, the 3rd top contributor to Dusty Plasma and Plasma Cosmology and the 2nd top contributor to the article on Redshift. --Iantresman (talk) 16:50, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
    • @Sandstein: Not impressed. I asked you for extra guidance as I could find no such "clear" conclusion, and indicated I was "happy to address these concerns"; I had also solicited advice from other editors, I even mentioned fringe science as one possibility, but was unable to pick it out from any of the other options. --Iantresman (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
    • What is disappointing, is that no-one is prepared to work with me, and provide the guidance that I seek. --Iantresman (talk) 07:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
    • @Timotheus Canens:
    • My 2007 CSN appeal was not rejected. Admins voted 3-3 (and one abstention) which shows no consensus.
    • There was no "full knowledge" (page Permission Error) of the Mainstream Astronomy account being one of several socks. This is clear from the "Statement of JoshuaZ" who repeats that the user is new. I wonder whether the views of other editors, and the votes would have changed, if this false statement were not perpetuated.
    • And while the CSN discussion was left opened after my community ban, editors who bothered to look noted: (a) "I'm having a hard time finding a single shred of evidence against him here.", and (b) "nor has the evidence in questions of fact been clearly presented.", and later another editor supported my unblocking "on the grounds that the user has apparently done little or nothing wrong,"
    • And while you are right in mentioning the AE case that I was cautioned in (and had forgotten), if you recall, I recently asked you if I could edit articles that were also covered by my ban to which you gave tacit approval to the advice here, and then you decided that some subsequent edits in the topic area were the wrong shade of grey. It's no wonder I don't know the rules, but it's not for want of trying to find out from you, and in other places. --Iantresman (talk) 08:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Timotheus Canens

    I'm not inclined to lift this topic ban. As Sandstein explained, the appeal does not indicate that recognizes that his editing at the time was problematic, and why, and how he would now edit differently. Given the lengthy history of fringe/pseudoscience-related sanctions here, I'd want to see an exceedingly persuasive demonstration that the concerns leading to the ban will not recur. This appeal falls far short.

    To the extent that the appeal is based on trouble-free editing, it resembles the October 2012 ARCA request that led to the topic ban being lifted, and we know how that one turned out (note that this topic ban was also reviewed at ARCA immediately after it was imposed). Not that the editing was entirely trouble-free: I recall at least one appeal to me that I declined after finding topic-ban violating edits, and a search of the AE archives showed at least one other instance of topic ban violation for which they were cautioned; while these are relatively minor, the failure to mention them - and the carefully chosen "penalty-free" wording - do not really inspire confidence.

    In a similar vein, the appeal also contains a rather misleading and incomplete characterization of the CSN discussion that led to the original ban: that discussion was kept open for a substantial period of time after the block took place, and an appeal was rejected by the 2007 arbcom with full knowledge of the identity of the "Mainstream astronomy" account. T. Canens (talk) 00:09, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor 1)

    Statement by (involved editor 2)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by iantresman

    Of course iantresman has not indicated that he recognizes that his editing at the time was problematic, and why; he doesn't think the ban was a good ban in the first place. When he asked for it to be lifted on those grounds, he was told to go away and that what the committee would really like to see is an appeal on the grounds that the ban is not presently necessary, with none of this stuff about contesting the original merit of an ancient sanction. Now he's back with the requested evidence and his appeal is being attacked because... it's too focused on trying to say the ban isn't presently necessary, and doesn't spend enough time addressing the original merit of the ancient sanction. I know there's no overlap between the individual arbs commenting on the two appeals, but iantresman is really getting the runaround here. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

    Result of the appeal by iantresman

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • @Iantresman: Please describe what the reasons for the topic ban were and how you would address these concerns in your future editing in the topic area if the ban is lifted. Please also describe in general terms which articles you want to create or which contributions you intend to make if the ban is lifted. Sandstein 14:40, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I would decline to lift the ban. Iantresman writes that "I don't know what the reasons were for my ban". However, according to the link he provides, it is very clear that the reason was that Iantresman was considered to have been advocating the inclusion of fringe or pseudoscience content in violation of policies and ArbCom decisions applicable to such content. Given that the ban has remained in force without successful appeal for some 6 years, I must assume that these concerns were valid. In this appeal Iantresman does not indicate that he recognizes that his editing at the time was problematic, and why, and how he would now edit differently. It therefore appears to me that the ban is still needed to prevent the recurrence of the concerns that led to the ban being imposed in 2012. Sandstein 17:04, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
    • This is starting to languish. I'm inclined to lift the ban on the basis that reimposing it if there is trouble will be very cheap indeed. There's been six years of trouble-free editing; not as high volume as before the ban but still apparently solid and trouble-free work. I would like to hear whether Timotheus Canens agrees first, though. GoldenRing (talk) 11:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I would lean towards provisionally rescinding the ban, under the same conditions outlined by User:GoldenRing. The lack of understanding about why the ban was imposed in the first place is seriously unimpressive, but most of the problematic behaviour seems to have been quite some time ago. If there is any problems around disruptive pseudoscience related edits, it could be re-instated rather quickly and easily. Lankiveil 02:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC).
    • I agree with Sandstein, and think we should decline to lift this. I am seeing no reason to lift this ban and "it has worked at preventing disruption" is not a good reason to lift it either. Related to the last point, I also find Tim's statement compelling, and I generally trust his judgement on these matters and see no reason why we should go against the sanctioning admin who opposes lifting the appeal at this time.TonyBallioni (talk) 06:04, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

    Dagduba lokhande

    Blocked for one week with a warning that future violations may lead to an indefinite block --regentspark (comment) 19:02, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Dagduba lokhande

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Capitals00 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:36, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Dagduba lokhande (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBPAK : Topic banned from anything related to B. R. Ambedkar (including family members), Buddhism, Caste in India, politics related to Dalits, broadly construed, applicable across the entire English Misplaced Pages, including but not limited to articles, templates, categories, images, user pages, drafts, portals, and their respective topic pages.
    Diff of the notification of above topic ban, and this action was logged too.
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    • Clear violation of topic ban from 11 April:
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    a block of 48 hours for violating topic ban.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I don't believe that he understands he is topic banned, despite having been told too clearly. Capitals00 (talk) 16:36, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

    Diff of topic ban notification and log entry added above now. Capitals00 (talk) 17:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

    @RegentsPark and SpacemanSpiff: Given that he edited nearly 45 days after his block on 26 February and he did nothing but violate his topic ban, it seems that one week block won't do anything because whenever Dagduba lokhande returns to Misplaced Pages, he violates his topic ban despite it has been clarified to him very clearly. His talk page messages show he is capable of understanding what is being told to him, yet he continues to intentionally violate topic ban. Just like the recent block on संदेश हिवाळे, I believe Dagduba lokhande should be indeffed too. Capitals00 (talk) 14:24, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Dagduba lokhande

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Dagduba lokhande

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Dagduba lokhande

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

    Scjessey

    No Action Spartaz 11:20, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Scjessey

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:51, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Scjessey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff) :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=next&oldid=835955264 (Scjessey reverting to restore challenged material "hate group")
    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=next&oldid=835970094 (Scjessey reverting to restore challenged material "hate group")
    3. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=next&oldid=836162209 (Scjessey reverting to restore challenged material "hate group")
    4. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=next&oldid=836259284 (Scjessey reverting to restore challenged material "anti-immigrant")
    5. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=prev&oldid=836267518 (incivility "I'm British, which almost certainly means my English is better than yours. And who gives a fuck about..."
    6. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=next&oldid=836399003 (Scjessey reverting to restore challenged material "anti-immigrant" and "hate group")
    7. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=next&oldid=836399003 (Scjessey reverting to restore challenged material "anti-immigrant" and "hate group", removing sources)
    8. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier&diff=prev&oldid=836719692 (gaming - notifies talk of his revert above, but throws in a warning to others not to transgress DS sanctions)
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. 23 December 2017 "blocked 24 hours for not gaining consensus before restoring an edit that was challenged, via reversion, in violation of DS at Presidency of Donald Trump."
      • 2 January 2018 AE log was later striked by blocking admin, no further explanation
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 30 March 2018.
    • Given an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 14 April 2018
    • Discretionary sanctions notice was placed on the talk page of the affected article on 14 April 2018
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I ran across this edit war somewhat in progress. Several editors were tag-teaming with an aggressive IP user (who has already been blocked), but I identify Scjessey as a particularly aggressive participant who exacerbated the edit war and repeatedly reinserted challenged material. I attempted to quell the situation by adding three additional sources and removing all the contentious language that these sources didn't all agree on, and noted this on the talk page as a way to deescalate the edit war. I also contacted Scjessey on his talk page. After a short break, today Scjessey removed our discussion on his talk page, calling it "BS". He then edited the article to remove the additional sources and restore the contentious labeling. This last revert, in particular since it removes the three additional sources, demonstrates that Scjessey is not interested in presenting this item in a WP:VERIFIABLE nor WP:NPOV manner (aka cherry-picking). His edit summary, claiming to be putting back a "consensus text" demonstrates that he sees consensus not as a process, but as the result of having a simple numbers advantage in an edit war. His follow-up Talk: page comment "It is important that we include this context (emphasis his) demonstrates that he sees this action more as a crusade to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. -- Netoholic @ 18:51, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

    As to Scjessey's claim below of not knowing this article was under the broad discretionary sanctions which apply to all post-1932 American politics, I find that groundless. His previous report against another user was within that area, and he certainly cannot claim to not be aware as his previous block was within this area also. I reminded him about the discretionary sanctions in our Talk: page conversation also. I think that he is trying to skirt his poor behavior by feigning ignorance is, frankly, insulting to this forum and to anyone involved. He has also just now taken to the article's talk page, seemingly just to notify the other participants in this edit war of this enforcement request. -- Netoholic @ 00:01, 17 April 2018 (UTC) Added: Starting his statement below with "Sigh" continues the trend of not treating this process with the due care and respect it deserves. Nothing about his statement indicates genuine acknowledgement of the problem and gives me no confidence his actions will change. -- Netoholic @ 00:29, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    @MrX: - the article itself has not special restrictions, but all editors are bound by the general expectations listed under Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Guidance for editors, which include the requirement to comply with Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines. The chief complaints in this request are failure to adhere to policies WP:VERIFIABLE, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, Misplaced Pages:Edit warring, and Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing (RIGHTGREATWRONGS). -- Netoholic @ 00:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    Scjessey and MrX (who also participated in this edit war) have asked about "boomeranging". My response is that I have made only 2 changes to the article - one to remove a section of a sentence that contained phrasing which was the direct cause of an active edit war, and the second was to remove the entire line to put the article back to a pre-edit war consensus version prior to its recent inclusion. I am not involved in this edit war in any way other than to see it end. I feel like asking for a "boomerang" on such flimsy reasoning is itself gaming the system, which also goes against Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Guidance for editors. -- Netoholic @ 00:18, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    Scjessey has doubled-down on his claim of lack of awareness, but on 29 March 2018, he removed a standard DS notice from another involved user's talk page which reads "the Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". He is well aware that any edits in this area are applicable under DS. More gaming and obfuscation. -- Netoholic @ 01:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: - I don't believe its possible for Scjessey to have "recognized that they acted improperly" when he several times in his responses here has lied (laughably, provably) about not knowing this topic was under general discretionary sanctions. Even if you disagree, the only recognition he's given us for his actions is "my bad". Nothing he's said has given any indication that this is unlikely to happen again. -- Netoholic @ 06:45, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    SPECIFICO has joined us asking why I "popped up here", but let's instead look at how he did. Scjessey contacted SPECIFICO on his talk page at 10:34, 13 April 2018. SPECIFICO had never before edit this article, but did so at 13:03 and then got involved in the talk page starting at 09:133 14 April. SPECIFICO should have recused himself from the discussion, since he was canvassed, but his involvement on that article and now this AE are the result of WP:Canvassing by Scjessey - another example of poor conduct that Scjessey has exhibited in this topic area. -- Netoholic @ 21:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Bishonen: - While the prior block may or may not be applicable towards escalating action against Scjessey, it is certainly one of many things I've linked here which prove that Scjessey was aware that edits related to Trump are within the general discretionary sanctions provisions. Scjessey noted this himself even as he resumed the edit warring. If you still feel he was unaware, I will be happy to go thru this and more evidence point by point, but I've already provided at least 5 solid instances within the last couple of months that show he must be aware. -- Netoholic @ 02:01, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Scjessey&diff=836768687&oldid=836716845


    Discussion concerning Scjessey

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Scjessey

    Sigh. To be honest, I did not realize the article in question was under Arbcom restrictions until I noted so here. My bad. I own that, and if administrators believe a sanction is warranted, I will not complain. Prior to that, I made edits consistent with what I believe were appropriate, and I did not violate 3RR (although it is hard to see from the incorrectly formatted diffs above). I explained myself by creating a talk page section (diff) and discussing it with other editors, most of whom agreed with my rationale either explicitly, or in the form of affirming edits to the article. I even checked myself with another editor (diff) to make sure I wasn't on the wrong track. A consensus has formed around this version of the text, with the only dissent coming from the editor with the creative revisionism presented above. I don't have much else to say, other than it wouldn't surprise me if the reporting editor got whacked with the proverbial boomerang. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

    @MrX: I noticed it has a little warning template at the top of the talk page that says:

    "The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Committee for pages related to all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, including this article. Please consult the awareness criteria and edit carefully."

    It does not, however, have the "WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES" I would normally look out for. That is why I did not realize until later that the article (or perhaps parts of the article?) was included. I did not think to check the DSLOG. Thank you for giving a better explanation of the circumstances than I could. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:29, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Netoholic: Just to clarify, the "previous sanction" of mine you highlighted was given to me erroneously, which is why it was struck from the record. Also, it appears I haven't actually violated anything (at least, not to the letter of the policy), but I commend you on your industrious effort to comb through my contributions and look for anything you can bring up here to reinforce your revisionist narrative. I'm still clear as to why you have chosen to go on this fruitless crusade, when surely your best strategy was to start an RfC on the content in question? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: You refer to my "substantial edit warring" in your comment below, but I don't believe it is a fair categorization. At no time did I violate WP:3RR. The incorrectly formatted diffs presented by the reporting editor make it difficult to follow, so I present annotated diffs of ALL my reversions over the five day period to that article with dates and times:

    1. A pure reversion on April 11, 2018 at 17:33
    2. A partial reversion, updated to address concerns of editor, on April 12, 2018 at 09:39
    3. A pure reversion (because of weird language) on April 13, 2018 at 06:24
    4. A pure reversion on April 13, 2018 at 13:52
    5. A partial reversion on April 16, 2018 at 09:23

    Certainly an argument can be made for a violation of WP:1RR, but the article wasn't (and still isn't) under that restriction. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:40, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by MrX

    Scjessey has not violated any editing restriction nor is his conduct violative of the principles or finding of the underlying Arbcom case. Contrarily, Netoholic has edited against consensus, and failed to accept a clear consensus established on the talk page. (See recent article history and recent talk page history). Netoholic is the only editor arguing to omit material, against four editors arguing to include it. That is, if you discount the IP sock who uses web host proxies to avoid scrutiny.

    Boomerang? - MrX 🖋 23:55, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Scjessey: The article is not under any editing restrictions. It lacks the required edit notice and is not logged at WP:DSLOG - MrX 🖋 23:59, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
    Netoholic, your explanation of how the edits violate the sanction or remedy (not expectations or guidelines), are "reverting to restore challenged material". There is no restriction on reverting to restore challenged material. You're conflating several unrelated things in what appears to be an effort to gain the upper hand in a content dispute.- MrX 🖋 00:25, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
    Scjessey, yes anyone can place a DS notice template on an appropriate article talk page. Only admins can place an article under editing restrictions, and they must follow the process described at WP:AC/DS#sanctions.page and WP:AC/DS#sanctions.log.- MrX 🖋 02:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by SPECIFICO

    The edit-warring IP was banned. There's clear consensus in support of Scjessey's edits among the editors on the article and talk page. There were no page restrictions in effect. The accuser, Netoholic has aggressively edited against consensus with absurd justifications that have been patiently refuted by the other editors on the talk page. He then launched into various forms of personal disparagement culminating with this defective AE complaint. Not sure why he even popped up at this, of all articles. As MrX states, a boomerang is in order for this extreme and entirely unjustified escalation against Scjessey. SPECIFICO talk 18:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

    I was not "canvassed" to the article. I was asked neutrally to take a look and I made an edit unrelated to the bit that Netoholic is edit-warring. SPECIFICO talk 00:28, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    After it was clear Netoholic was a single editor against a consensus of 6 others, none of the six escalated by preemptively reinstating the consensus content. It was patiently suggested to Netoholic that his best recourse was an RfC. Instead he chose personal attacks, this bogus AE report on a page that had no DS page restriction, and misrepresentation of Scjessey's record and actions. SPECIFICO talk 02:32, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Scjessey

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I think that this article is within the scope of US politics discretionary sanctions, and Scjessey was properly aware of those. It's hard not to see Scjessey's conduct here as edit-warring. In that regard the request has merit. (The rest of the complaints about verifiability, undueness etc. are primarily content disputes which AE does not address; the same goes for claims that "Netoholic has edited against consensus".) Considering that Scjessey has recognized that they acted improperly here, and that they have no prior (unstruck) sanctions, I believe that a logged warning against edit-warring would suffice in this case. Sandstein 06:25, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I have to note that I disagree with the assessments below that no action is necessary. This is quite clearly substantial edit-warring by Scjessey, irrespective of whether others have also behaved badly and whether Scjessey has also engaged in constructive discussion. I think that a warning is at the lower bound of the range of appropriate admin reactions here. Sandstein 09:12, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    • (ec) A few formalities:
      • It's hard to see how this article wouldn't fall under the post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions;
      • Scjessey is aware of those sanctions, having been sanctioned under them in the past 12 months (though apparently successfully appealed, this still counts for awareness);
      • There are no active page restrictions on this article (no 1RR, consensus required etc).
    • With that out the way, I don't see a case for action here. There has been some edit-warring on the article, and an IP was blocked for it. How CIS is described in the article is fundamentally a content question to be decided by consensus. Scjessey started a discussion at the TP and that appears to be reaching a conclusion. If others are unhappy with that, the next step is to start an RfC and try to attract a wider audience to the discussion (neutrally, of course). GoldenRing (talk) 06:42, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
    • The "previous relevant sanctions" that the OP refers to aren't actually relevant. An admin made a bad block on 23 December 2017, and then after a lot of blowback on ANI realized it was bad and struck it in the AE log, as well as withdrawing it in the block log. It wasn't a question of being "successfully appealed" by Scjessey, as GoldenRing supposes (understandably). The block had more to do with the admin than with Scjessey, and needn't be taken into consideration here. Partly for that reason, I believe Scjessey when he says he wasn't aware the article was under DS. I don't think a sanction, or actually a logged warning either, is warranted. It would be quite ironic if Scjessey got one of those because of a bad old block, which was probably a disagreeable enough experience in itself. Bishonen | talk 23:07, 17 April 2018 (UTC).
    • I agree with GoldenRing and Bishonen. --NeilN 03:04, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Also agree with GR and Bishonen. The incivility is never excusable, but it was in response to a fairly patronising comment from an IP. Scjessy is participating in consensus building, appropriately, on the talk page. No actions are necessary. Fish+Karate 08:50, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    Js82

    Not something for AE, no violation of any applicable sanction. User has been issued a garden variety block for unrelated reasons.—SpacemanSpiff 23:32, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Js82

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    D4iNa4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:52, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Js82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    • POV pushing: ,
    • Edit warring and depending on edit summaries for discussion:
    • Personal attacks, incivility, alleging others of assuming bad faith:-
    • : ignored the question and alleges other editor of "do not like it".
    • "what I'm seeing here seems to be WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT"
    • "I'm trying my best to be nice, but do not make the mistake of construing that as some sort of weakness."
    • "Are you really asking me to spoon-feed you ?".. " you are displaying a remarkable lack of effort & sincerity really."
    • "propose your text if you have any, rather than making baseless allegations and asking for spoon-feeding, without even having read the sources. Quit WP:OWN."

    Despite objections from at least 4 editors towards his version that includes quote farming, he claims "I have not seen any real reason to exclude the quote." This message shows his complete failure to adhere to consensus.

    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. October 2015, topic banned from all Indian religions which includes Sikhism for 6 months.
    2. October 2016, topic banned from all Sikhism articles for an indefinite period.
    3. September 2017, indeffed for violating topic ban.
    Topic ban was removed in February 2018, but with extreme caution that he will "end up in the same situation, this time with no avenue to return", if he engaged in disruption again.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Sanctioned before in the area of conflict per above.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    @RegentsPark: by "violation of a sanction", do you mean the two points that you had mentioned here? He has been making blanket reverts of versions by MSW very often though, despite having told not to do that. Also the diffs I have presented, shows that he still don't understand that Misplaced Pages involves team work, and he is frequently engaging in edit warring, making personal attacks. Not to mention that whatever he has been removing/restoring in these diffs doesn't improve the article, but only makes it worse. D4iNa4 (talk) 19:00, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Notified.


    Discussion concerning Js82

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Js82

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Js82

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I see reasons for concern here (the slow reversion, the edit summary as discussion) but no violation of a sanction. My suggestion is that this be taken to WP:DRN or, perhaps, an RfC. Js82, though you have no current topic ban, you need to be a little more circumspect in the way you go about editing Sikhism pages. Fewer reverts and more use of the talk page would be a good start. If you find yourself stuck, use DRN or an RfC to get broader input. --regentspark (comment) 18:52, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
      @D4iNa4: I don't see a violation of the Indo/Pak editing restrictions or any other sanction that may be in place. Looking through Js82's talk history, I don't even see a recent Indo/Pak editing restrictions notice, a necessary requirement before we can even consider admin action (though, even had a warning been in place, I don't see sufficient reason for any admin action). --regentspark (comment) 20:47, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    • We certainly believe in second, third, etc chances in this place. I see Js82 was blocked indefinitely by Bbb23 in November 2015, unblocked by Ponyo in October 2016, blocked indefinitely again by SpacemanSpiff in September 2017, and unblocked again by Dlohcierekim in February 2018. There, now I've pinged all the blocking and unblocking admins, who may perhaps have an opinion here. For myself, I don't see any abuse by Js82 in D4iNa4's diffs. Maybe a little impatience. D4iNa4, is it possible you may have thought Js82's chequered history would be pretty much enough to get him sanctioned here? Because it isn't. Bishonen | talk 20:39, 18 April 2018 (UTC).
    • Once again, Bishonen's razor like mind has cut to the heart of the matter, me thinks. If memory serves, there was considerable push-back to unblocking this user. The thing about a second chance is that it is a second chance. Unless problematic behavior has really returned, we cannot haul Js82 in for what they did before the latest block. RegentsPark's reasoning seems sound to me. Js82 needs to temper their passion for Sikhism related articles and be more open to discussion and if needed compromise with others who are as passionate but who have a different opinion. Sometimes is best to just step away for a while.--Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Furthermore, RegentsPark had very sound advice to offer at the unblock discussion. I urge Js82 to reread that and reflect on it in the light of the current situation.--Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    •  Checkuser note: Please see my findings and notes at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Js82.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
    • This is not a case for AE. The self-admitted socking and deception prior to the unblock has resulted in a new indef, so I'll close this now.—SpacemanSpiff 23:32, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

    Anythingyouwant

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Anythingyouwant

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBAPDS
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. April 19, 2018 - Violation of article editing restrictions.
    2. April 19, 2018 - "I am tired of you and your POV pushing. Go away from this talk page, please, and don’t come back, ever. You can see I have cited BLP in my edit summary. Now go away to whatever administrative forum you wish to abuse. If wikipedia had a jury-like system instead of the structure it has now, you would not be able to subvert the rules to advance your POV, as you do incessantly, and doubtless are about to do in the present case. Misplaced Pages is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like you. Cheers." (Personal attack)
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. November 27, 2017 - AE sanction for restoring challenged text on an edit restricted American politics article. Used similar reasoning: "Per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP."
    2. January 23, 2018 - AE Topic ban extend by one month (AE discussion)
    3. January 20, 2018 - AE topic ban
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Related talk page discussion: Talk:Donald Trump#BLP
    I'm nonplussed by Anythingyouwant's doubling down on calling me a POV-pusher who abuses administrative boards. As far as I'm concerned, behaviour like this, which has been going on for years, is not going to be quelled by a narrow three month topic ban.- MrX 🖋 14:47, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @Sandstein:
    1. Anythingyouwant adds the content:
    2. I remove the content:
    3. Anythingyouwant reverts my edit, effectively restoring the challenged material:
    • I'm disappointed at the ineffectual proposals by some of the admins below. Anythingyouwant has a history of using BLP as a shield and gaming the system to advance his POV. He has a history of unfounded personal attacks, often far worse than his flagrant assault on my integrity.
    How many times do we have to come back to AE and ANI before something meaningful is done to address this long term, recurrent problem. I'm tired of of having to politely ask Anythingyouwant to follow our rules, only to have my hand slapped down as if he has some superior editing insight that the rest of us are too biased or stupid to understand. We have dozens of conservative leaning editors like JFG, FallingGravity, PackMecEng, Springee, Markbassett, Dervorguilla, and many others who manage to help balance content without constantly bending the rules to their favor and attacking other editors. Would it help if I produced a list of Anythinyouwant's personal attacks, or a list of his attempts to blatantly game the system, or a list of his faux retirements? Do we need an American Politics 3 Arbcom case before this will addressed in a meaningful way?
    Admins, please help me help you. This falls way short of what is necessary.- MrX 🖋 12:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    @Masem: You quoted me and then wrote: "There are definitely editors that are more liberal leaning editors with a strong POV that have repeated been brought to AN/AE for behavior, shall we do the same to them? (obviously not)." ← How is that a logical response to what I wrote about constructive editing from right leaning editors? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make.
    On the other hand, the rest of your comment is abundantly clear: that you think I'm trying to eliminate an editor whose POV I disagree with. If that is what you have gleaned from this discussion; the block and topic ban history; the talk page archives; the Arbcom cases; the diffs; the wikilawyering; and your own participation in the May 2017 ANI discussion, then I can confidently say you have no business making any comments below the Result concerning Anythingyouwant heading. Please recuse yourself, or at least move your comments to the gallery.- MrX 🖋 19:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Anythingyouwant

    Saying at my user talk page that User:MrX is a POV-pusher and that he abuses administrative boards like this one was intended as an honest opinion, and his complaint here about it only proves the point.

    Regarding the other matter he raises, let’s be real. The Trump lead includes an allegation that he may have committed a basically treasonous act: conspiring with Russia to steal the election. That allegation belongs in the lead, and so does at least some brief mention that Trump has denied it, which he has done incessantly and emphatically. My edit explicitly cited “WP:BLP” and I did it only once, here, before taking it to the talk page. BLP is crystal clear about this: “If the subject has denied such allegations, that should also be reported”. The more notable an accusation, the more notable the denial.

    Sime people at the talk page say it wasn’t really an allegation because it’s merely alleged that he may have done it. Others say that it was indeed an allegation, but still the denial can be put later in the article instead, leaving only the accusation in the lead. That all strikes me as baloney. Accusers don’t have to be 100% certain of guilt, for this part of BLP to apply. Moreover, WP:LEAD instructs: “The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic.“ After my one edit citing “WP:BLP”, I was reverted and did not repeat the edit. Instead I went to the talk page to listen to several editors make their implausible, partisan arguments. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @NeilN, I hadn’t realized that calling Misplaced Pages a propaganda outfit at my user talk was blockable. If so, please block me from my user talk instead of from the article that you don’t want me involved with. Until Misplaced Pages adopts some kind of jury-like system, fora like this one will be sources of abuse. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:NeilN, I’m well aware that user-talk is not a free-for-all zone. I didn’t call anyone a fucking retard. I said that Misplaced Pages is propagandistic, and that’s because certain editors make it so. Even if I did call someone a fucking retard at user talk, does that give you authority to dish out topic bans? For stuff I said at user talk? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:NeilN, do you really think I ever suggested that editors cannot be sanctioned for user talk page posts? I instead questioned whether the type of sanction, i.e. a topic ban, is the proper type of sanction for something I said at my user talk. A proper sanction for calling someone of the anointed ones a POV-pusher at my user talk can take some form other than a topic ban, no? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:NeilN, you will be implementing a three month topic ban on Donald Trump for something that was not said or done at either that article or that talk page. I called someone a POV-pusher at my own user talk. Do anything you want, I suppose. Call me whatever you want, I suppose. Whatever makes you feel good. I can certainly understand why you (plural) would not want a jury-like body to get in the way of your prescriptions. I will say quite frankly that Misplaced Pages’s most effective means of censorship is not to directly modify content, but rather to get rid of editors. You can judge for yourself how true that is. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:NeilN, you say it’s wikilawyering for me to mention that this page is for enforcing arbitration sanctions whereas your only complaint about my alleged “attacks” is one single mild comment at my user talk page which has nothing to do with arbitration sanctions, and which I deleted hours ago. So, it seems you’re just throwing around catchphrases. I’ve already given my opinion above, regarding how and why folks like you operate. It will be very nice to have more space between us. Incidentally, the last sanction that you refer to was simply for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary, not for any edit that I made anywhere. In any event, you know as well as I do that no indefinite topic ban on me will ever be removed, that’s just the way things work around here. Congratulations, and farewell. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:RegentsPark, I don’t see any indication that you’re any more aware than User:NeilN that the comment he objects to was at user talk, so banning me from somewhere aside from user talk seems like a misfire. I also don’t see any indication that you’re aware of a BLP exception to the “consensus required” restriction. You all are largely unaccountable and not detached, so none of this is surprising. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:Masem, isn’t there a BLP exemption from the page restrictions? If you doubt it, I can provide links. I successfully availed myself of that exemption here at this page in 2016. The article talk page includes a BLP template, saying “This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy”. Also, I took this to the article talk page after citing “WP:BLP” only once, so it’s obvious I wasn’t jamming it back in using “BLP” in my edit summary again. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    User:Masem, the policy you cite says “Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material. What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.” Note the word “biased”. You don’t think I had a good faith belief that omitting a denial of treason is a biased omission? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    Repinging User:Masem. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:Mandruss, I agree with you that BLP appears to provide a very limited exemption, but it doesn't include anything one considers biased. So I relied on a very specific form of bias that is clearly spelled out in the BLP policy: describing allegations while omitting denials. They should remove the word “bias” from the list of exemptions, if they’re going to sanction everyone who invokes it, but perhaps that suggestion is quixotic as well. Better to entice people into removing obvious bias, so they can then be selectively sanctioned depending upon the type of bias. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:Mandruss, see WP:3RRNO. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    User:Mandruss, 3RRNO potentially applies to 1RR, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t likewise potentially apply to the Trump article as well. See what User:Masem said below. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    User:Mandruss, if someone switches the top image in the Trump article to an image of a chimpanzee, that is subject to repeated reversion under 3RRNO, regardless of whether a consensus at article talk supports the chimp image. You seem to be arguing otherwise, but that’s the whole point of 3RRNO. The matter about the image can then come here, the admins can identify and ban the vandals, end of story. Same with blatant bias in the lead that violates explicit and specific language in WP:BLP. That’s what the applicable guidelines and policies say, and I’m surprised you disagree. (I don’t care for your sarcastic comments about white knights, by the way.) Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    User:Mandruss, I entirely agree that most BLP questions are far more nuanced than the chimpanzee example. So the admins here aren’t supposed to just take my word for it that BLP policy requires a brief denial in the Trump lead; they should go look at what WP:BLP says, go look at the lead as it stands now, read the applicable sanctions and 3RRNO, look at the proposed edits, read pertinent discussion at article talk, and reach a neutral decision about whether there’s a bias in the lead that violates BLP. None of that happens here because folks like you say it’s unnecessary to go through that process, and other folks just don’t feel in the mood. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    User:Mandruss, you say “AE's function is not resolve content disputes.” Unless it’s a chimpanzee picture, I gather. The discretionary sanctions say, “any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process” can be sanctioned. Blatantly violating a very clear BLP standard seems to qualify, IMHO. Anyway, you say we should all go home if Misplaced Pages fails. I will take that as very good advice. Misplaced Pages fails because there is no mechanism for randomly gathering uninvolved and uninterested editors together in a jury to apply BLP rules in disputes like this one, IMHO. Biased editors flock to every proceeding where they’re allowed. See you later, maybe. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    @User:Bishonen, speaking of “crap”, when did my user talk page become subject to discretionary sanctions? Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Galobtter

    Sandstein violation of consensus required before restoration per and . (not sure why MrX didn't include those diffs)

    Clearly not under the purview of the BLP exemption unlike what Anythingyouwant seems to say. There isn't a vague hand wavy "BLP" exemption; WP:3RRNO is pretty clear about it being of "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material." Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Only in death

    Does anyone think Anythingyouwant is going to change his views about Trump in the next 3 months? Does anyone genuinely think a 3 month vacation from Trump will change his editing in any way regarding Trump? Just make the topic ban permanent and be done with this crap. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC) @Masem, I see you missed the second rhetorical question. "Does anyone genuinely think a 3 month vacation will change his editing in any way?". The combination of his POV regarding Trump and his inability to alter his behaviour means that a 3 month topic ban from one particular topic in US politics is unlikely to do anything except push the problem back for 3 months. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:01, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Mandruss

    There is no exemption to the ArbCom restrictions for opposition to perceived POV-pushing. If there were, the ArbCom restrictions would be virtually worthless, as misperceived POV-pushing is rampant. BLP appears to provide a very limited exemption, but it doesn't include anything one considers biased. If it did, the ArbCom restrictions would be virtually worthless, as misperceived bias is rampant. Anythingyouwant seems unable to err on the side of caution when editing under the remedies, which I expressed to them in January. And claiming that the entire system is corrupt is tilting at windmills, pure and simple. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Anythingyouwant: BLP does not trump CONSENSUS, which is why we go immediately to talk upon a challenge even if we are asserting BLP. Once we got to talk, we saw legitimate opinion from multiple experienced editors that the preceding sentence is not an allegation as intended by that clause of BLP. Hence, err on the side of caution. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Anythingyouwant: ArbCom restrictions ≠ WP:3RR. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Anythingyouwant: At great cost to the project, BLP is often used as a weapon by self-appointed righteous Knights of the Order of BLP Protectors—editors who like (or need) to see themselves as the only good editors in the room. Neutrality looks like bias to those who fail to recognize their own bias, and that's a stone cold fact. Whether you are such a knight is really beside the point, as there has to be one set of rules for everybody. BLP cannot trump CONSENSUS, it simply does not and cannot work; if somebody challenges your BLP claim, you go to talk and seek consensus, full stop. If somebody repeatedly forces you to talk with spurious challenges of BLP claims, that's an equally serious behavior issue that warrants a harsh response.
    If policy does not make all this crystal clear, we have identified the root of much unnecessary conflict in BLP areas. As I've said before, if CONSENSUS and behavior policy are not enough to protect article content, en-wiki fails and we all go home. I don't rule out that possibility. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Anythingyouwant: I submit that this BLP question, and most BLP questions, are far more nuanced than your chimpanzee example. And that's the problem, too many editors are unwilling or unable to see the nuance, and every BLP question is a chimpanzee example. They self-appoint as the only editors able to see with that amount of clarity, even when opposed by multiple editors with, collectively, many times their experience. That can't work in a project fundamentally based on collaboration. It never has and it never will. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:03, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Anythingyouwant: AE's function is not resolve content disputes. It is to decide whether you violated the ArbCom restrictions. In my opinion you did, I'm sorry if the rules are unclear, but you knew the quicksand was there and chose to walk into it. Again.
    I'm done here unless pinged by somebody else. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    NEVER say "I'm done here".
    SPECIFICO's "Your 'evidence' seems to suggest" overstates the case, but their interpretation of the cause-and-effect is at least as likely as Lambden's, and that neutralizes both arguments. I don't know the name of Lambden's logical fallacy, but I know a logical fallacy when I see one. Besides, we are hardly going to instate affirmative action for conservatives, so the argument is pointless. It's also meta to this AE complaint and thus off topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by MONGO

    I confess I saw the change made by Anythingyouwant, thought it was accurately in line with BLP so I restored it, not paying enough attention to the regs for that page, that stipulate talkpage consensus must be reached beforehand. Recognize also the reverts mentioned do not involve vandalism reverts and the BLP argument is not strong. To me it seems like an issue of ethical good taste more than anything else. While most may feel Anythingyouwant deserves a sanction here, would prefer they be allowed to participate in the talkpage discussion if they would be willing to self impose a 90 day article space editing moratorium. Just seeking a less draconian resolution.--MONGO 18:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    The push to site ban or indef block this editor has all the makings of a rather draconian resolution. The near threats of yet another arbcom case are not pleasing to read either.--MONGO 14:28, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

    I'm appalled that MrX would demand that Masem, an 10 year veteran admin, who was supported 50-1 on his Rfa, and with numerous FAs and GAs under his belt, would be asked to not participate in the resolution of this matter in his capacity as an administrator of this website. I dare say that MrX does some heavy pitching here frequently to AE and while some of those he has brought forth here do deserve penalty, his heavy handed approach here and elsewhere indicates to me that the inability to edit collegially may be as much his problem to work on as those he accuses of the same.--MONGO 20:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by SPECIFICO

    @NeilN: If the sanction is to be a TBAN, why restrict it to Donald Trump? Anythingyouwant's behavior spans the entire American Politics space, and its gone on for many years. I don't think it really should be a temporary sanction, either, but that is typical of the timid approach Admins have taken in recent enforcement. SPECIFICO talk 20:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @James J. Lambden: Your "evidence" seems to suggest that Trump-oriented editors (e.g. ones with pin-ups of POTUS on their user pages) tend to violate DS whereas neutral editors, who generally do not violate DS, are repeatedly brought here on specious, undocumented and generally incompetent complaints. SPECIFICO talk 20:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    @Mandruss: Some fallacies should not even be dignified by the name logical. It's just a "one of those". SPECIFICO talk 22:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    Sorry, Admins, but I'm going to repeat something I've said on this page several times before: Anythingyouwant got a TBAN from abortion-related topics after some epic misdeeds in that area. The post-1932 politics has become an extension of that battleground. Many pro-life advocates will do anything necessary to sustain Republican leadership that will appoint pro-life Supreme Court justices. Anythingyouwant's behavior in American Politics articles should already have been deemed a violation of his TBAN, but the connection may not be within the domain of mere Admins. I'm sure if we take this to Arbcom, this user would likely be blocked indefinitely from WP. There needs to be decisive action to stop the corrosive misbehavior that has been the core of Anythingyouwant's participation on Misplaced Pages. A simple AP2 TBAN is required. SPECIFICO talk 13:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


    Statement by James J. Lambden

    Here are all cases where 1RR/Consensus Required AP2 complaints were dismissed:

    Here are all cases where they resulted in sanctions:

    In only one case was a complaint against an editor seemingly advocating the conservative position dismissed, and it involved them removing an unsubstantiated accusation of "child rape" from the lede. Note the editors who restored "child rape" faced no consequences.

    In only one case was an editor seemingly advocating the liberal position sanctioned, and the complaining party was sanctioned with an interaction ban.

    To editors familiar with the topic the pattern is evident.

    I have listed only violations reported to AE. Past decisions and comments have had a chilling effect, and editors in the topic know to avoid disciplinary noticeboards as, depending on the violator, a complaint will at best be dismissed and at worst result in their own sanction.

    Here are two examples I've encountered just in the last month of the same 1RR/Consensus Required violation which were not sanctioned: diff1, diff2. If there a question as to whether a complaint would have resulted in action note that one of the violators (who I repeat violated the same policy) feels confident enough to comment here recommending a full topic ban.

    To quote Justice Judy's decision in Brawthen, a domestic violence case:

    • "There are women who worked very hard for decades to create a system where domestic violence is serious business, where people respond to it in a serious way, and when used as a weapon and not a shield it's offensive to the system."

    Unfortunately I have seen more examples of Discretionary Sanctions and enforcement as a "weapon" against editors than a "shield" to protect articles. I expect this will continue absent significant reform.

    Note regarding the list above: I have omitted complaints dismissed due to conspicuous policy misinterpretation by the filer. If I have excluded 1RR/Consensus Required complaints with a reasonable policy basis please link them and I will amend the list. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Beyond My Ken

    Reading down the page, I found Only in death's comment (in favor of an indef Trump topic ban) persuasive at first, since I think he's quite correct that a short Trump topic ban for AYW isn't going to make much of a difference. Then I read Bishonen's comment (3 month indef block), and that seemed to make even more sense, although I (personally) would still doubt that AYW would change their combative way of editing (on full display here) even then, but a few months in the desert is better than allowing AYW to continue practicing their editing style on other American-politics related topics -- which they would certainly do. Therefore, I would suggest to NeilN that Bishonen's suggestion is the better choice, if we're to have any hope of encouraging AYW to change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Atsme

    This case moved forward quickly so I apologize for getting here so late. My perception of AYW's attempt to add the denial to the lede was that it was a GF edit based on NPOV and BLP. AYW did go to the article TP in an attempt to discuss the inclusion. I don't think irritating another editor at a TP justifies a block or TB. My interest in this case is more focused on the NPOV argument which I see as being inseparable from BLP. Prior to this case being filed, I posted a tough question on the TP of TonyBallioni hoping to get some thoughtful input. The diff I used in that same discussion included AYW's edit as an example. While waiting for more answers at Tony's, I discovered this case had been filed. I respect MrX, and realize that our Trump-related articles are highly controversial. There also appears to be an expanding left-right divide in RL which may explain why we're seeing mention of party affiliations in the discussion above. Political persuasions should not be an issue if everyone is truly focused on NPOV, but I also understand why some may think political persuasion may create an inadvertent COI, especially if one has a strong loyalty to or hatred for a particular party. I can also see that the results here are not leaning in AYW's favor, but I'm going to ask for leniency anyway. Editor retention is becoming/has been an issue, and as Legacypac pointed out above, we may be eliminating too many editors whose opposing views actually help WP achieve compliance with neutrality and balance. I hope it's a worthy enough point for admins to ponder. 20:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

    Result concerning Anythingyouwant

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Given the past sanctions, I am disinclined to overlook "Misplaced Pages is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like you" and recommend another Donald Trump topic ban, three months in length. --NeilN 14:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    • @MrX: How exactly does the one diff no. 1 violate the article restrictions? Sandstein 14:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I agree with NeilN that a three month Donald Trump topic ban is the way to go. Sandstein, diff no. 1 appears to violate the "consensus required" restriction. --regentspark (comment) 14:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Anythingyouwant's first addition of this material, prior to the diff identified above. While I am 100% sympathetic towards the BLP argument raised here (including the allegation in the lede but not the denial), this is clearly against page restrictions. --Masem (t) 14:53, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
      • I don't think the material added qualifies for the WP:3RRNO exemptions; the only one we have for BLP is removing obviously poorly or unsourced libelous material. I think Anythingyouwant is fully correct there's a massive BLP problem here, but its not one that can be managed by edit warring. --Masem (t) 15:02, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Not that I'm aware of. While BLP is very important and particularly in this case, you still can't edit over it. We're not talking poorly/unsourced material (the allegations and his denial are well sourced), so it immediately fails the 3RRNO allowances. I know what you're trying to ask to do, you're hitting a massive wall, but that's not a reason to edit war against clear page restrictions, even if you think you are doing it in the name of BLP. --Masem (t) 15:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
      • Only adding a comment that I am concerned about @Only in death:'s suggestion that they don't expect AYW's opinion to change on Trump in 3 months so we should enforce something harder. The last thing we are going to do is block/ban people strictly because they express a certain opinion/POV. It's the combination of expressing that opinion and editing in a disruptive manner to maintain that opinion/POV that causes a problem and where we need blocks. Mechanically, we need to enforce something here against AYW's edits - they were clearly not appropriate and since they have been warned/acted against before, they should know better. But again, those were for actions, not for having a specific POV. Very much particularly at an article like Trump, we should have editors with multiple viewpoints to keep watch to make sure BLP/NPOV is upheld, which may create friction which is why there are the discretionary sanctions on that page to caution editors. --Masem (t) 06:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
      • We have dozens of conservative leaning editors like JFG, FallingGravity, PackMecEng, Springee, Markbassett, Dervorguilla, and many others who manage to help balance content without constantly bending the rules to their favor and attacking other editors. There are definitely editors that are more liberal leaning editors with a strong POV that have repeated been brought to AN/AE for behavior, shall we do the same to them? (obviously not). Given that AYW's concern here is 100% valid under BLP (and as I see from the talk page, has been discussed and implemented), just not an allowance for editing warring, this seems more pleading to eliminate a louder voice in opposition to the majority's POV from the discussion, only readily supported in the fact that AYW has engaged in some disruptive behavior in the past. I know what that looks like, where you are challenging the prevailing editors' broad POV and end up having those editors try to silence you, and I see the same patterns here. We have something we can take action on (exceeding 0RR on contested material), but it's nowhere close to the disruption that a lengthy topic ban or block is required, particularly as they jumped to the talk page to start discussion. --Masem (t) 14:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Given the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude and continued jibes on display here, I will be implementing a three month topic ban on Donald Trump, broadly construed, unless there is further admin input. --NeilN 15:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    • I won't straight-up oppose your plans there, Neil, but I find Anythingyouwant's arguments against a topic ban logical. He questions "whether the type of sanction, i.e. a topic ban, is the proper type of sanction for something I said at my user talk. A proper sanction for calling one of the anointed ones a POV-pusher at my user talk can take some form other than a topic ban, no?" Yes. A three-month-block would be a better fit (proposed block length adjusted for AYWs long history of battleground editing, and for the "one of the anointed ones" crap). Bishonen | talk 20:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC).
    • I think that if this were only the editing restriction violation, I'd argue for leniency; while the disputed text probably doesn't reach the standard of the exemptions in 3RRNO, I do think the is a BLP problem and the exemption was claimed in good faith; that they are also participating in the TP is also good. The aspersions and general battleground attitude on display is deeply unimpressive, though. I agree with others that a narrow topic ban is not the answer here and I'd be inclined towards a shorter block (a month? six weeks?). GoldenRing (talk) 11:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    • What would be the rationale for the block? If we are giving a three-month block out just for some extraordinarily mild incivility on his own talk page, then that's ludicrous. The community lets far more incivil comments than that go by with nothing done about them every day of the year. Blocks should not be used to punish, they should be to prevent disruption. If the block rationale would be for the problem editing in a single area, then a topic ban is appropriate. As the disruption is in one area, then a targeted topic ban is both less destructive and would solve the problem of disruptive editing. I'd suggest it be to American politics articles, rather than specifically ones about Donald Trump, though, and I'd suggest 3 months would be the absolute minimum length. Fish+Karate 11:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    • @Bishonen, GoldenRing, and Fish and karate: When considering your comments I had another look at Anythingyouwant's editing history. On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump. On January 27th they took a break from editing. They returned on April 13th and went back to Donald Trump a couple days after. On the 19th they started the attacks that landed them here. This indicates they will simply wait until their topic ban expires and then continue their disruption. When reading their "discretionary sanctions applies to user talk pages? really??" comments above, I was struck how similar this was to their behavior outlined in the last case here. Same gaming, same wikilawyering. I don't think a short block will work here based on their Jan-Apr editing history but an indefinite topic ban might. Let them edit in other areas to show they can contribute non-disruptively and have them appeal rather than having the ban simply expire. I'd go with a blanket American Politics ban. --NeilN 13:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

    No More Mr Nice Guy

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Onceinawhile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    No More Mr Nice Guy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Discretionary_sanctions_motion_(2011) and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_3#Sanctions_available
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 00:24, 10 April 2018 removes Q2 from an article FAQ that he had been heavily involved in building out three years previously. No discussion raised on talk.
    2. 17:59, 13 April 2018 Removes again, again with no talk discussion
    3. 17:04, 15 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
    4. 14:49, 17 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
    5. 16:53, 20 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. 21:39, 15 May 2017 72-hour ARBPIA-related block
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Previously blocked under ARBPIA
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    • These five edits do not cross 1RR, but they constitute a clear and consistent edit-war. Given this editor's long term experience, I would have hoped they could have relied on discussion instead of trying to force through a new status quo.
    • Whilst these edits were on a talk-page FAQ, and not an article, the general restriction clearly refers to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict", not just "any article".
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.