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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by iantresman

Dagduba lokhande

Scjessey

Js82

Anythingyouwant

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Anythingyouwant

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAPDS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. April 19, 2018 - Violation of article editing restrictions.
2. April 19, 2018 - "I am tired of you and your POV pushing. Go away from this talk page, please, and don’t come back, ever. You can see I have cited BLP in my edit summary. Now go away to whatever administrative forum you wish to abuse. If wikipedia had a jury-like system instead of the structure it has now, you would not be able to subvert the rules to advance your POV, as you do incessantly, and doubtless are about to do in the present case. Misplaced Pages is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like you. Cheers." (Personal attack)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. November 27, 2017 - AE sanction for restoring challenged text on an edit restricted American politics article. Used similar reasoning: "Per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP."
2. January 23, 2018 - AE Topic ban extend by one month (AE discussion)
3. January 20, 2018 - AE topic ban

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on November 27, 2017 by TonyBallioni (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on January 20, 2018 by Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Related talk page discussion: Talk:Donald Trump#BLP

I'm nonplussed by Anythingyouwant's doubling down on calling me a POV-pusher who abuses administrative boards. As far as I'm concerned, behaviour like this, which has been going on for years, is not going to be quelled by a narrow three month topic ban.- MrX 🖋 14:47, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein:

1. Anythingyouwant adds the content:
2. I remove the content:
3. Anythingyouwant reverts my edit, effectively restoring the challenged material:

• I'm disappointed at the ineffectual proposals by some of the admins below. Anythingyouwant has a history of using BLP as a shield and gaming the system to advance his POV. He has a history of unfounded personal attacks, often far worse than his flagrant assault on my integrity.

How many times do we have to come back to AE and ANI before something meaningful is done to address this long term, recurrent problem. I'm tired of of having to politely ask Anythingyouwant to follow our rules, only to have my hand slapped down as if he has some superior editing insight that the rest of us are too biased or stupid to understand. We have dozens of conservative leaning editors like JFG, FallingGravity, PackMecEng, Springee, Markbassett, Dervorguilla, and many others who manage to help balance content without constantly bending the rules to their favor and attacking other editors. Would it help if I produced a list of Anythinyouwant's personal attacks, or a list of his attempts to blatantly game the system, or a list of his faux retirements? Do we need an American Politics 3 Arbcom case before this will addressed in a meaningful way?

Admins, please help me help you. This falls way short of what is necessary.- MrX 🖋 12:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Masem: You quoted me and then wrote: "There are definitely editors that are more liberal leaning editors with a strong POV that have repeated been brought to AN/AE for behavior, shall we do the same to them? (obviously not)." ← How is that a logical response to what I wrote about constructive editing from right leaning editors? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make.

On the other hand, the rest of your comment is abundantly clear: that you think I'm trying to eliminate an editor whose POV I disagree with. If that is what you have gleaned from this discussion; the block and topic ban history; the talk page archives; the Arbcom cases; the diffs; the wikilawyering; and your own participation in the May 2017 ANI discussion, then I can confidently say you have no business making any comments below the Result concerning Anythingyouwant heading. Please recuse yourself, or at least move your comments to the gallery.- MrX 🖋 19:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Anythingyouwant

Saying at my user talk page that User:MrX is a POV-pusher and that he abuses administrative boards like this one was intended as an honest opinion, and his complaint here about it only proves the point.

Regarding the other matter he raises, let’s be real. The Trump lead includes an allegation that he may have committed a basically treasonous act: conspiring with Russia to steal the election. That allegation belongs in the lead, and so does at least some brief mention that Trump has denied it, which he has done incessantly and emphatically. My edit explicitly cited “WP:BLP” and I did it only once, here, before taking it to the talk page. BLP is crystal clear about this: “If the subject has denied such allegations, that should also be reported”. The more notable an accusation, the more notable the denial.

Sime people at the talk page say it wasn’t really an allegation because it’s merely alleged that he may have done it. Others say that it was indeed an allegation, but still the denial can be put later in the article instead, leaving only the accusation in the lead. That all strikes me as baloney. Accusers don’t have to be 100% certain of guilt, for this part of BLP to apply. Moreover, WP:LEAD instructs: “The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic.“ After my one edit citing “WP:BLP”, I was reverted and did not repeat the edit. Instead I went to the talk page to listen to several editors make their implausible, partisan arguments. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN, I hadn’t realized that calling Misplaced Pages a propaganda outfit at my user talk was blockable. If so, please block me from my user talk instead of from the article that you don’t want me involved with. Until Misplaced Pages adopts some kind of jury-like system, fora like this one will be sources of abuse. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:NeilN, I’m well aware that user-talk is not a free-for-all zone. I didn’t call anyone a fucking retard. I said that Misplaced Pages is propagandistic, and that’s because certain editors make it so. Even if I did call someone a fucking retard at user talk, does that give you authority to dish out topic bans? For stuff I said at user talk? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:NeilN, do you really think I ever suggested that editors cannot be sanctioned for user talk page posts? I instead questioned whether the type of sanction, i.e. a topic ban, is the proper type of sanction for something I said at my user talk. A proper sanction for calling someone of the anointed ones a POV-pusher at my user talk can take some form other than a topic ban, no? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:NeilN, you will be implementing a three month topic ban on Donald Trump for something that was not said or done at either that article or that talk page. I called someone a POV-pusher at my own user talk. Do anything you want, I suppose. Call me whatever you want, I suppose. Whatever makes you feel good. I can certainly understand why you (plural) would not want a jury-like body to get in the way of your prescriptions. I will say quite frankly that Misplaced Pages’s most effective means of censorship is not to directly modify content, but rather to get rid of editors. You can judge for yourself how true that is. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:NeilN, you say it’s wikilawyering for me to mention that this page is for enforcing arbitration sanctions whereas your only complaint about my alleged “attacks” is one single mild comment at my user talk page which has nothing to do with arbitration sanctions, and which I deleted hours ago. So, it seems you’re just throwing around catchphrases. I’ve already given my opinion above, regarding how and why folks like you operate. It will be very nice to have more space between us. Incidentally, the last sanction that you refer to was simply for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary, not for any edit that I made anywhere. In any event, you know as well as I do that no indefinite topic ban on me will ever be removed, that’s just the way things work around here. Congratulations, and farewell. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:RegentsPark, I don’t see any indication that you’re any more aware than User:NeilN that the comment he objects to was at user talk, so banning me from somewhere aside from user talk seems like a misfire. I also don’t see any indication that you’re aware of a BLP exception to the “consensus required” restriction. You all are largely unaccountable and not detached, so none of this is surprising. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:Masem, isn’t there a BLP exemption from the page restrictions? If you doubt it, I can provide links. I successfully availed myself of that exemption here at this page in 2016. The article talk page includes a BLP template, saying “This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy”. Also, I took this to the article talk page after citing “WP:BLP” only once, so it’s obvious I wasn’t jamming it back in using “BLP” in my edit summary again. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Masem, the policy you cite says “Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material. What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.” Note the word “biased”. You don’t think I had a good faith belief that omitting a denial of treason is a biased omission? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Repinging User:Masem. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:Mandruss, I agree with you that BLP appears to provide a very limited exemption, but it doesn't include anything one considers biased. So I relied on a very specific form of bias that is clearly spelled out in the BLP policy: describing allegations while omitting denials. They should remove the word “bias” from the list of exemptions, if they’re going to sanction everyone who invokes it, but perhaps that suggestion is quixotic as well. Better to entice people into removing obvious bias, so they can then be selectively sanctioned depending upon the type of bias. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:Mandruss, see WP:3RRNO. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Mandruss, 3RRNO potentially applies to 1RR, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t likewise potentially apply to the Trump article as well. See what User:Masem said below. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Mandruss, if someone switches the top image in the Trump article to an image of a chimpanzee, that is subject to repeated reversion under 3RRNO, regardless of whether a consensus at article talk supports the chimp image. You seem to be arguing otherwise, but that’s the whole point of 3RRNO. The matter about the image can then come here, the admins can identify and ban the vandals, end of story. Same with blatant bias in the lead that violates explicit and specific language in WP:BLP. That’s what the applicable guidelines and policies say, and I’m surprised you disagree. (I don’t care for your sarcastic comments about white knights, by the way.) Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Mandruss, I entirely agree that most BLP questions are far more nuanced than the chimpanzee example. So the admins here aren’t supposed to just take my word for it that BLP policy requires a brief denial in the Trump lead; they should go look at what WP:BLP says, go look at the lead as it stands now, read the applicable sanctions and 3RRNO, look at the proposed edits, read pertinent discussion at article talk, and reach a neutral decision about whether there’s a bias in the lead that violates BLP. None of that happens here because folks like you say it’s unnecessary to go through that process, and other folks just don’t feel in the mood. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Mandruss, you say “AE's function is not resolve content disputes.” Unless it’s a chimpanzee picture, I gather. The discretionary sanctions say, “any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process” can be sanctioned. Blatantly violating a very clear BLP standard seems to qualify, IMHO. Anyway, you say we should all go home if Misplaced Pages fails. I will take that as very good advice. Misplaced Pages fails because there is no mechanism for randomly gathering uninvolved and uninterested editors together in a jury to apply BLP rules in disputes like this one, IMHO. Biased editors flock to every proceeding where they’re allowed. See you later, maybe. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@User:Bishonen, speaking of “crap”, when did my user talk page become subject to discretionary sanctions? Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Galobtter

Sandstein violation of consensus required before restoration per and . (not sure why MrX didn't include those diffs)

Clearly not under the purview of the BLP exemption unlike what Anythingyouwant seems to say. There isn't a vague hand wavy "BLP" exemption; WP:3RRNO is pretty clear about it being of "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material." Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Only in death

Does anyone think Anythingyouwant is going to change his views about Trump in the next 3 months? Does anyone genuinely think a 3 month vacation from Trump will change his editing in any way regarding Trump? Just make the topic ban permanent and be done with this crap. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC) @Masem, I see you missed the second rhetorical question. "Does anyone genuinely think a 3 month vacation will change his editing in any way?". The combination of his POV regarding Trump and his inability to alter his behaviour means that a 3 month topic ban from one particular topic in US politics is unlikely to do anything except push the problem back for 3 months. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:01, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mandruss

There is no exemption to the ArbCom restrictions for opposition to perceived POV-pushing. If there were, the ArbCom restrictions would be virtually worthless, as misperceived POV-pushing is rampant. BLP appears to provide a very limited exemption, but it doesn't include anything one considers biased. If it did, the ArbCom restrictions would be virtually worthless, as misperceived bias is rampant. Anythingyouwant seems unable to err on the side of caution when editing under the remedies, which I expressed to them in January. And claiming that the entire system is corrupt is tilting at windmills, pure and simple. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: BLP does not trump CONSENSUS, which is why we go immediately to talk upon a challenge even if we are asserting BLP. Once we got to talk, we saw legitimate opinion from multiple experienced editors that the preceding sentence is not an allegation as intended by that clause of BLP. Hence, err on the side of caution. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: ArbCom restrictions ≠ WP:3RR. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: At great cost to the project, BLP is often used as a weapon by self-appointed righteous Knights of the Order of BLP Protectors—editors who like (or need) to see themselves as the only good editors in the room. Neutrality looks like bias to those who fail to recognize their own bias, and that's a stone cold fact. Whether you are such a knight is really beside the point, as there has to be one set of rules for everybody. BLP cannot trump CONSENSUS, it simply does not and cannot work; if somebody challenges your BLP claim, you go to talk and seek consensus, full stop. If somebody repeatedly forces you to talk with spurious challenges of BLP claims, that's an equally serious behavior issue that warrants a harsh response.
If policy does not make all this crystal clear, we have identified the root of much unnecessary conflict in BLP areas. As I've said before, if CONSENSUS and behavior policy are not enough to protect article content, en-wiki fails and we all go home. I don't rule out that possibility. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: I submit that this BLP question, and most BLP questions, are far more nuanced than your chimpanzee example. And that's the problem, too many editors are unwilling or unable to see the nuance, and every BLP question is a chimpanzee example. They self-appoint as the only editors able to see with that amount of clarity, even when opposed by multiple editors with, collectively, many times their experience. That can't work in a project fundamentally based on collaboration. It never has and it never will. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:03, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: AE's function is not resolve content disputes. It is to decide whether you violated the ArbCom restrictions. In my opinion you did, I'm sorry if the rules are unclear, but you knew the quicksand was there and chose to walk into it. Again.
I'm done here unless pinged by somebody else. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

NEVER say "I'm done here".
SPECIFICO's "Your 'evidence' seems to suggest" overstates the case, but their interpretation of the cause-and-effect is at least as likely as Lambden's, and that neutralizes both arguments. I don't know the name of Lambden's logical fallacy, but I know a logical fallacy when I see one. Besides, we are hardly going to instate affirmative action for conservatives, so the argument is pointless. It's also meta to this AE complaint and thus off topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by MONGO

I confess I saw the change made by Anythingyouwant, thought it was accurately in line with BLP so I restored it, not paying enough attention to the regs for that page, that stipulate talkpage consensus must be reached beforehand. Recognize also the reverts mentioned do not involve vandalism reverts and the BLP argument is not strong. To me it seems like an issue of ethical good taste more than anything else. While most may feel Anythingyouwant deserves a sanction here, would prefer they be allowed to participate in the talkpage discussion if they would be willing to self impose a 90 day article space editing moratorium. Just seeking a less draconian resolution.--MONGO 18:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The push to site ban or indef block this editor has all the makings of a rather draconian resolution. The near threats of yet another arbcom case are not pleasing to read either.--MONGO 14:28, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm appalled that MrX would demand that Masem, an 10 year veteran admin, who was supported 50-1 on his Rfa, and with numerous FAs and GAs under his belt, would be asked to not participate in the resolution of this matter in his capacity as an administrator of this website. I dare say that MrX does some heavy pitching here frequently to AE and while some of those he has brought forth here do deserve penalty, his heavy handed approach here and elsewhere indicates to me that the inability to edit collegially may be as much his problem to work on as those he accuses of the same.--MONGO 20:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO

@NeilN: If the sanction is to be a TBAN, why restrict it to Donald Trump? Anythingyouwant's behavior spans the entire American Politics space, and its gone on for many years. I don't think it really should be a temporary sanction, either, but that is typical of the timid approach Admins have taken in recent enforcement. SPECIFICO talk 20:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@James J. Lambden: Your "evidence" seems to suggest that Trump-oriented editors (e.g. ones with pin-ups of POTUS on their user pages) tend to violate DS whereas neutral editors, who generally do not violate DS, are repeatedly brought here on specious, undocumented and generally incompetent complaints. SPECIFICO talk 20:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Some fallacies should not even be dignified by the name logical. It's just a "one of those". SPECIFICO talk 22:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, Admins, but I'm going to repeat something I've said on this page several times before: Anythingyouwant got a TBAN from abortion-related topics after some epic misdeeds in that area. The post-1932 politics has become an extension of that battleground. Many pro-life advocates will do anything necessary to sustain Republican leadership that will appoint pro-life Supreme Court justices. Anythingyouwant's behavior in American Politics articles should already have been deemed a violation of his TBAN, but the connection may not be within the domain of mere Admins. I'm sure if we take this to Arbcom, this user would likely be blocked indefinitely from WP. There needs to be decisive action to stop the corrosive misbehavior that has been the core of Anythingyouwant's participation on Misplaced Pages. A simple AP2 TBAN is required. SPECIFICO talk 13:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by James J. Lambden

Here are all cases where 1RR/Consensus Required AP2 complaints were dismissed:

• Sept 2016 – Volunteer Marek – Complaining party accused of using enforcement to "game" the system and topic banned
• Oct 2016 – Anythingyouwant – good faith reverts as potential BLP problems
• Oct 2016 – My very best wishes – No action taken
• Feb 2017 – SPECIFICO - Questionable conduct by more than one editor, but no action taken
• May 2017 – SPECIFICO - No action taken

Here are all cases where they resulted in sanctions:

• Oct 2016 – Ihardlythinkso – banned from the topic of post-1932 politics
• Oct 2016 – Anythingyouwant – banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States
• Feb 2017 – Thucydides411 – 'blocked for one week for violating the page restrictions
• Jul 2017 – Neuwert – blocked for 48 hours
• Nov 2017 – Anythingyouwant – placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore
• Nov 2017 – Volunteer Marek – Topic ban from Donald Trump and interaction ban for filer
• Dec 2017 – DHeyward – topic banned for 1 month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians

In only one case was a complaint against an editor seemingly advocating the conservative position dismissed, and it involved them removing an unsubstantiated accusation of "child rape" from the lede. Note the editors who restored "child rape" faced no consequences.

In only one case was an editor seemingly advocating the liberal position sanctioned, and the complaining party was sanctioned with an interaction ban.

To editors familiar with the topic the pattern is evident.

I have listed only violations reported to AE. Past decisions and comments have had a chilling effect, and editors in the topic know to avoid disciplinary noticeboards as, depending on the violator, a complaint will at best be dismissed and at worst result in their own sanction.

Here are two examples I've encountered just in the last month of the same 1RR/Consensus Required violation which were not sanctioned: diff1, diff2. If there a question as to whether a complaint would have resulted in action note that one of the violators (who I repeat violated the same policy) feels confident enough to comment here recommending a full topic ban.

To quote Justice Judy's decision in Brawthen, a domestic violence case:

• "There are women who worked very hard for decades to create a system where domestic violence is serious business, where people respond to it in a serious way, and when used as a weapon and not a shield it's offensive to the system."

Unfortunately I have seen more examples of Discretionary Sanctions and enforcement as a "weapon" against editors than a "shield" to protect articles. I expect this will continue absent significant reform.

Note regarding the list above: I have omitted complaints dismissed due to conspicuous policy misinterpretation by the filer. If I have excluded 1RR/Consensus Required complaints with a reasonable policy basis please link them and I will amend the list. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Reading down the page, I found Only in death's comment (in favor of an indef Trump topic ban) persuasive at first, since I think he's quite correct that a short Trump topic ban for AYW isn't going to make much of a difference. Then I read Bishonen's comment (3 month indef block), and that seemed to make even more sense, although I (personally) would still doubt that AYW would change their combative way of editing (on full display here) even then, but a few months in the desert is better than allowing AYW to continue practicing their editing style on other American-politics related topics -- which they would certainly do. Therefore, I would suggest to NeilN that Bishonen's suggestion is the better choice, if we're to have any hope of encouraging AYW to change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

This case moved forward quickly so I apologize for getting here so late. My perception of AYW's attempt to add the denial to the lede was that it was a GF edit based on NPOV and BLP. AYW did go to the article TP in an attempt to discuss the inclusion. I don't think irritating another editor at a TP justifies a block or TB. My interest in this case is more focused on the NPOV argument which I see as being inseparable from BLP. Prior to this case being filed, I posted a tough question on the TP of TonyBallioni hoping to get some thoughtful input. The diff I used in that same discussion included AYW's edit as an example. While waiting for more answers at Tony's, I discovered this case had been filed. I respect MrX, and realize that our Trump-related articles are highly controversial. There also appears to be an expanding left-right divide in RL which may explain why we're seeing mention of party affiliations in the discussion above. Political persuasions should not be an issue if everyone is truly focused on NPOV, but I also understand why some may think political persuasion may create an inadvertent COI, especially if one has a strong loyalty to or hatred for a particular party. I can also see that the results here are not leaning in AYW's favor, but I'm going to ask for leniency anyway. Editor retention is becoming/has been an issue, and as Legacypac pointed out above, we may be eliminating too many editors whose opposing views actually help WP achieve compliance with neutrality and balance. I hope it's a worthy enough point for admins to ponder. 20:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Result concerning Anythingyouwant

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Given the past sanctions, I am disinclined to overlook "Misplaced Pages is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like you" and recommend another Donald Trump topic ban, three months in length. --NeilN 14:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• @Anythingyouwant: I don't think you understand user talk pages are in no way free-for-all zones and not subject to civility restrictions. --NeilN 15:05, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• @Anythingyouwant: Yes, editors can be sanctioned for user talk page posts. --NeilN 15:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• @MrX: How exactly does the one diff no. 1 violate the article restrictions? Sandstein 14:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Ugh. Why do we need a novel-length discussion for this? Anyway. BLP is not an excuse, because whether the contested content is needed here is primarily a matter of editorial judment and therefore a legitimate content dispute. But I am generally not a fan of page restrictions, because they tend to create more problems than they solve. Because of this, I normally expect whoever places page restrictions to enforce them themselves. I'll therefore take no action here and have no opinion about whether anybody else should. Sandstein 21:31, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with NeilN that a three month Donald Trump topic ban is the way to go. Sandstein, diff no. 1 appears to violate the "consensus required" restriction. --regentspark (comment) 14:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Anythingyouwant's first addition of this material, prior to the diff identified above. While I am 100% sympathetic towards the BLP argument raised here (including the allegation in the lede but not the denial), this is clearly against page restrictions. --Masem (t) 14:53, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't think the material added qualifies for the WP:3RRNO exemptions; the only one we have for BLP is removing obviously poorly or unsourced libelous material. I think Anythingyouwant is fully correct there's a massive BLP problem here, but its not one that can be managed by edit warring. --Masem (t) 15:02, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Not that I'm aware of. While BLP is very important and particularly in this case, you still can't edit over it. We're not talking poorly/unsourced material (the allegations and his denial are well sourced), so it immediately fails the 3RRNO allowances. I know what you're trying to ask to do, you're hitting a massive wall, but that's not a reason to edit war against clear page restrictions, even if you think you are doing it in the name of BLP. --Masem (t) 15:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Only adding a comment that I am concerned about @Only in death:'s suggestion that they don't expect AYW's opinion to change on Trump in 3 months so we should enforce something harder. The last thing we are going to do is block/ban people strictly because they express a certain opinion/POV. It's the combination of expressing that opinion and editing in a disruptive manner to maintain that opinion/POV that causes a problem and where we need blocks. Mechanically, we need to enforce something here against AYW's edits - they were clearly not appropriate and since they have been warned/acted against before, they should know better. But again, those were for actions, not for having a specific POV. Very much particularly at an article like Trump, we should have editors with multiple viewpoints to keep watch to make sure BLP/NPOV is upheld, which may create friction which is why there are the discretionary sanctions on that page to caution editors. --Masem (t) 06:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
  • We have dozens of conservative leaning editors like JFG, FallingGravity, PackMecEng, Springee, Markbassett, Dervorguilla, and many others who manage to help balance content without constantly bending the rules to their favor and attacking other editors. There are definitely editors that are more liberal leaning editors with a strong POV that have repeated been brought to AN/AE for behavior, shall we do the same to them? (obviously not). Given that AYW's concern here is 100% valid under BLP (and as I see from the talk page, has been discussed and implemented), just not an allowance for editing warring, this seems more pleading to eliminate a louder voice in opposition to the majority's POV from the discussion, only readily supported in the fact that AYW has engaged in some disruptive behavior in the past. I know what that looks like, where you are challenging the prevailing editors' broad POV and end up having those editors try to silence you, and I see the same patterns here. We have something we can take action on (exceeding 0RR on contested material), but it's nowhere close to the disruption that a lengthy topic ban or block is required, particularly as they jumped to the talk page to start discussion. --Masem (t) 14:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Given the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude and continued jibes on display here, I will be implementing a three month topic ban on Donald Trump, broadly construed, unless there is further admin input. --NeilN 15:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• I won't straight-up oppose your plans there, Neil, but I find Anythingyouwant's arguments against a topic ban logical. He questions "whether the type of sanction, i.e. a topic ban, is the proper type of sanction for something I said at my user talk. A proper sanction for calling one of the anointed ones a POV-pusher at my user talk can take some form other than a topic ban, no?" Yes. A three-month-block would be a better fit (proposed block length adjusted for AYWs long history of battleground editing, and for the "one of the anointed ones" crap). Bishonen | talk 20:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC).
• I think that if this were only the editing restriction violation, I'd argue for leniency; while the disputed text probably doesn't reach the standard of the exemptions in 3RRNO, I do think the is a BLP problem and the exemption was claimed in good faith; that they are also participating in the TP is also good. The aspersions and general battleground attitude on display is deeply unimpressive, though. I agree with others that a narrow topic ban is not the answer here and I'd be inclined towards a shorter block (a month? six weeks?). GoldenRing (talk) 11:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• What would be the rationale for the block? If we are giving a three-month block out just for some extraordinarily mild incivility on his own talk page, then that's ludicrous. The community lets far more incivil comments than that go by with nothing done about them every day of the year. Blocks should not be used to punish, they should be to prevent disruption. If the block rationale would be for the problem editing in a single area, then a topic ban is appropriate. As the disruption is in one area, then a targeted topic ban is both less destructive and would solve the problem of disruptive editing. I'd suggest it be to American politics articles, rather than specifically ones about Donald Trump, though, and I'd suggest 3 months would be the absolute minimum length. Fish+Karate 11:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• @Bishonen, GoldenRing, and Fish and karate: When considering your comments I had another look at Anythingyouwant's editing history. On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump. On January 27th they took a break from editing. They returned on April 13th and went back to Donald Trump a couple days after. On the 19th they started the attacks that landed them here. This indicates they will simply wait until their topic ban expires and then continue their disruption. When reading their "discretionary sanctions applies to user talk pages? really??" comments above, I was struck how similar this was to their behavior outlined in the last case here. Same gaming, same wikilawyering. I don't think a short block will work here based on their Jan-Apr editing history but an indefinite topic ban might. Let them edit in other areas to show they can contribute non-disruptively and have them appeal rather than having the ban simply expire. I'd go with a blanket American Politics ban. --NeilN 13:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'd be good with that. The ban formulation should preferably contain explicit advice about how constructive editing in other areas, as well as in the sister projects, would make an appeal more likely to be viewed favorably. Bishonen | talk 14:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC).
• I think that’s a better option then immediately jumping to a full block. Fish+Karate 17:44, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

No More Mr Nice Guy

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Onceinawhile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

No More Mr Nice Guy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Discretionary_sanctions_motion_(2011) and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_3#Sanctions_available

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 00:24, 10 April 2018 removes Q2 from an article FAQ that he had been heavily involved in building out three years previously. No discussion raised on talk.
2. 17:59, 13 April 2018 Removes again, again with no talk discussion
3. 17:04, 15 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
4. 14:49, 17 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
5. 16:53, 20 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 21:39, 15 May 2017 72-hour ARBPIA-related block

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Previously blocked under ARBPIA

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• These five edits do not cross 1RR, but they constitute a clear and consistent edit-war. Given this editor's long term experience, I would have hoped they could have relied on discussion instead of trying to force through a new status quo.
• Whilst these edits were on a talk-page FAQ, and not an article, the general restriction clearly refers to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict", not just "any article".

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy

There is an explicit talk page consensus that the material should be removed. See https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Mandatory_Palestine#1RR_on_FAQ where 5 editors support removal and only 3 think the material should be included. Note that my reverts "whilst talk discussion ongoing" were per ONUS and CONS to the version the talk page consensus supported.

Please note that Onceinawhile (who has also reverted twice) has not reported editors who support his position who also made multiple reverts while discussion was ongoing (some against consensus), including one who didn't even bother to participate in the discussion. This report is an obvious BATTLEGROUND attempt after failing to gain consensus. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Yep, pretty straightforward editwarring here. "The others are editing against consensus" is not an excuse for editwarring, and if you keep on reverting many different editors, then that is a pretty good indication that whatever consensus your preferred verson might once have enjoyed isn't so solid any more. I think a one-week block would be appropriate. Sandstein 21:51, 20 April 2018 (UTC)