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Volksdeutsche from Reich?

Weren't they rather Reichsdeutsche?Xx236 (talk) 13:47, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for noticing. Sentence refactored to read: Following the invasion of 1939, additional 1,180,000 German speakers came to occupied Poland either from the Reich or from the east with little to lose (Volksdeutsche).  Done Poeticbent talk 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

A number of problems

• What was Poland? Was Vilnius or Grodno Poland?

What do you mean by this? 'Grodno' is not mentioned by name in the main copy, only in references? Vilnius is mentioned in section "German-inspired massacres" (quote): In the lead-up to the establishment of the Wilno Ghetto in the fifth largest city of prewar Poland and a provincial capital (Wilno), now Vilnius, Lithuania) ... Sounds fine, so — what would you like me to do here? Poeticbent talk 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

My question is fundamental, what is "The Holocaust in Poland"? Was Grodno Poland or not? Jews and Poles were murdered in Ponary/Paneriai by Lithuanian volunteers, was it a part of the Holocaust in Poland?Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Quite many Jews were transported from Western Europe to ghettos and camps in occupied Poland. Some of them were later transported to another ghettos or camps. Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

What part of the article are you referring to? Please provide citation, or at least the location which is of interest to you. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The Holocaust in Poland was a part of the Holocaust in general, both Jewish victims and the executors were moved from place to place. Many Western Jews died in Łódź ghetto (which was named Litzmannstadt ghetto, not Łódź). Was it a part of the Holocaust in Poland? Hundreds of thousands Jews were transported to Auschwitz from Greece, Slovakia, Hungary, Western Europe. Was it a part of the Holocaust in Poland? Some Polish Jews died in camps in Germany. Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

The name The Holocaust in Poland suggests there existed Poland like there existed Hungary or Norway. Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• This is a meta question that can only be answered by writing a whole manual on the topic of sovereignty. I will look into the foreign deportations' question, which is the only thing I can do. Poeticbent talk 18:45, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't understand which problem you address. The definition of "Poland" is basic to discuss the "Holocaust in Poland". Apparently many Western readers, journalists ignore basic facts - the destruction of Polish state, annexations, German administration (districts, gaus). German administration in GG was both civilian (Hans Frank controlled by German government) and SS/police (controlled by Himmler). Xx236 (talk) 08:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Poland as a country or region is distinct from Poland the state - and in territorial extent is different from the modern state (which has moved to the West - taking German lands on the one hand, and losing land to the USSR). In terms of Jewish history - much of greater Poland - contained in the Pale of Settlement - is often referred to as Poland. The brief spurt of Polish independence to the Jewish destruction in the Holocaust was fairly irrelevant. (this often causes issues when reconciling a source that says Poland with modern day geography). In any event - The region itself is distinct from the state. If Britain were to have been occupied - we still would have referred to events in Britain or the British Isles.Icewhiz (talk) 09:47, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Part of Britain was ooccupied. Am I the only expert here?Xx236 (talk) 12:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

May someone explain me the above text? Xx236 (talk) 12:49, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Allow me to try. Your repeated attempts, over many years, to cloud the issue by asking for a definition of Poland are a waste of everybody's time—including yours. When Poland was partitioned, the Polish state ceased to exist, but the history of Poland didn't suddenly cease, only to begin again with the reestablishment of a Polish state after World War I. Likewise, when the Polish state ceased to exist after the start of World War II, Poland did not cease to exist. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:08, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I meant - which area do we assume to be "Poland" during WWII. Vilnius area is described both here and in The Holocaust in Lithuania. The Holocaust in Ukraine is allegedly about Reichskommissariat Ukraine, but it mentiones also Lviv and Lvov, which is the same place.Xx236 (talk) 13:23, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I do not see any problem. Both cities belonged to prewar Poland. Therefore, they are correctly included on this page. But they also should be included to pages about The Holocaust in Lithuania and in Ukraine because they were a part of Holocaust on these territories. Same thing can be noted on any number of pages if it is logically and historically connected to subjects of these pages. My very best wishes (talk) 04:20, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Some Polish Jews were deported to places outside Poland, eg. to camps in Germany. Some of them died there, some survived. Is it the part of the subject?Xx236 (talk) 12:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Next time, please start a new thread, because responding to old threads is counterproductive. All nations have their own national mythologies, with or without sovereignty. Jews were citizens of prewar sovereign states including the Second Republic and the USSR, but they were targeted in the Holocaust as one 'race'. The Poles were also targeted as one 'race' based on language, ancestry and culture, regardless of where they lived (in the Holocaust, but also during the Polish Operation of the NKVD and later). At the conclusion of World War II millions of people were either moved or expelled. As a result, we have two separate histories to contend with: the history of the land, on the one hand, and the history of the peoples, on the other. Poeticbent talk 18:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't mean any mythology, I'm asking if this page should inform about Polish Jews deported by Nazis outside Poland, eg. when Auschwitz prisoners were evacuated in 1945.Xx236 (talk) 06:13, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Victims forced by Nazis to give up their protectors

As explained here, these cannot count as Holocaust collaborators under any reasonable definition. By all this means this should be mentioned in Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust as an additional peril to Righteous Among the Nations, but the blame for such murders is clearly on the Nazis. I also don't think that the source used is an appropriate one, better to use one that gives a more general summary of the perils faced by protectors.--Pharos (talk) 22:25, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

• Please read the entire section; our coverage goes both ways. At the very bottom of the same section the article also states: ... the communist secret police routinely tortured the NSZ insurgents in order to force them to confess to killing Jews among other alleged crimes. This was most notably the case with the 1946 trial of 23 officers of the NSZ in Lublin. The torture of political prisoners by the Ministry of Public Security did not stop when the interrogations were concluded. Physical torture was also ordered if they retracted in court their forced confessions of "killing Jews". — The Christian Martyrs of Charity by the Kolbe Foundation gives documented examples of Jewish people betraying all (!) Polish rescuers known to them, and the source is reliable. It is not up to us to blame anyone, and I don't think we need a replacement for a monograph that might have taken decades to develop. Many recently published books on the subject (no need for titles) use prisoner confessions extracted through extreme physical torture as a viable source of information about the mistreatment of others. Summaries don't always help. Poeticbent talk 23:14, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what you mean by "coverage goes both ways" - I do agree it is appropriate for this section to cover the issue of false confessions of collaboration extracted by torture. Christian Martyrs of Charity is a memorial book of Christian heroism, not Jewish treachery, and you are missing the point of this publication. The format seems to be primary source one-sentence commemorations of individual instances of Christian heroism; in some of these one-sentence summaries the word "betray" is used, but almost certainly these "betrayals" were extracted by torture or the threat of torture from people about to be murdered. That the rescuers willingly faced this additional peril of being revealed is a credit to them, but it is not something that any reasonable person would attribute to those taken by the Nazis. We would need general historical sources that Jewish victims who were forced by Nazis to give up their protectors, should be considered to themselves be Holocaust collaborators.--Pharos (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

• I resent your insinuation that I am misusing the source (or missing the point of this publication), and I strongly disagree with your assessment of the book as WP:PRIMARY. It is not! Primary sources generally comprise the survivor testimonies, but the survivors (witnesses, bystanders, etc.) do not speak in this volume! Wacław Zajączkowski (ISBN 0945281005) is a notable historian with two books written on the same subject, and belittling his research is unnecessary. Your claim of betrayals "extracted by torture" is WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. — Zajączkowski did not say that. His research is as much a part of Holocaust narrative as any other information on the subject. It is a part of the rescue attempts' history, but no rescuer would have ever consider that as an "additional peril" (as you say). You removed the 'betrayal' from the section heading. — How would you categorize the extortions in the ghettos themselves ... was it not betrayal? Poeticbent talk 18:37, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

• I do not mean to diminish Zajączkowski's work at all, but I disagree with your interpretation of it. Many historians work directly with primary texts and individual cases; there are a number of historians who have written comparable books on large numbers of Jewish Holocaust victims as well, with short one--sentence summaries for each. But it would not be appropriate for a Misplaced Pages editor to take a few isolated individual histories from such a book on Jewish Holocaust victims either, and interpret a trend. The interpretation of a trend like that is not a function for us. I think that the word "betray" in the text is certainly inclusive of forced betrayal, and that is the only reasonable interpretation; these were people could not hold out, but they were not collaborators getting a reward. I certainly do agree that people in the ghettos like Group 13 were collaborators.--Pharos (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be retitled ...

Please explain

What is the connection of the phrase "At that time, Wilno had only a small Lithuanian-speaking minority of about 6 percent of the city's population" with the Ponary massacre?Xx236 (talk) 08:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

This would explain why this present day Lithuania locale was actually Polish (part of the second Polish republic and demographically Polish).Icewhiz (talk) 10:15, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

The subject of this page is the Holocaust, not ethnicity of this present day Lithuania locale. The murderers were mostly Lithuanian and at least one thousand of victims were ethnic Poles - local leaders, underground activists. Eyewitnesses who documented the crimes were Polish - Kazimierz Sakowicz and Józef Mackiewicz. Xx236 (talk) 12:31, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• The new reference, you brought (above link): Prof. Piotr Niwiński from University of Gdańsk (2011) Ponary, Institute of National Remembrance with Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Poland); results in yet another problem. In our article, the reference used is: Müller, Jan-Werner (2002), Memory and Power in Post-War Europe: Studies in the Presence of the Past. Cambridge University Press. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-521-00070-3. Chapter: Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine, 1939–1999 by Timothy Snyder, section "The Transfer of Vilnius". — But page 47 is not in the Google Books' preview, therefore the information cannot be confirmed now as claimed by Misplaced Pages (quote): "Wilno (Vilnius) had only a small Lithuanian-speaking minority of about 6 percent of the city's population." Meanwhile, the statistics offered by Niwiński's are very different (quote from page 4 in PDF): "The Lithuanians represented less than 0.7 percent of the inhabitants of Vilnius." Not 6 percent... but 0.7 percent. I don't know what to believe. Let's go back to Polish census of 1931, population by city: "Wilno," table 10. Population according to mother tongue, (Commons). Here's what it was in 1931: Grand total – 195,071 inhabitants, including 128,628 Polish speakers, and 1,579 Lithuanian, and 47,523 Yiddish, and 7,073 Hebrew among several other groups. Here's the math: 1579x100/195071=0.8 percent of Lithuanians from 100% data. Would you consider this 0.8 percent original research on my part, or is it OK to be used? Thanks, Poeticbent talk 05:40, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

  I don't think this would be OR, it would however only be correct for 1931 (would have to be attributed as such).Icewhiz (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

This must be a nightmare. The paragraph informs about a Ponary massacre and you discuss ratio of ethnic Lithuanians in the city/region. Xx236 (talk) 06:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• The connection between population statistics and the Ponary massacre is direct, because statistics help us define who the victims were. The mass killings began in July 1941; the victims were Polish Jews, in most part. I found another book reference which is equally relevant for our purposes as Niwiński. Shatterzone of Empires edited by Omer Bartov & Eric D. Weitz; chapter "Nationalizing the Borderlands" by Tomas Balkelis, pp. 246–248. This information is critical; by outlining the presence of war refugees according to Lithuanian sources, above and beyond the 10-year-old Polish national census. According to: Note 21. Regina Zepkaite, Vilniaus istorijos atkarpa, 1939–1940 (Vilnius: Mokslas, 1990), 49 – in 1937, the total population of Polish Wilno was 210,000. Take into consideration possible Lithuanian bias also. Upon the Soviet invasion of Poland in September 1939, (now) Vilna was transferred to Lithuania per Soviet–Lithuanian Mutual Assistance Treaty. But refugees from German-occupied western Poland kept arriving, which resulted in humanitarian crisis (quote): According to the Lithuanian Red Cross, in February 1940 these 'newcomers' numbered around 150,000 in the entire Vilnius region, including 83,000 in Vilnius itself. On the eve of the Soviet annexation of Lithuania , Vilnius alone was home to around 100,000 newcomers, including 85,000 Poles, 10,000 Jews, and 5,000 Belorussians and Russians. When the killings started, the number of Lithuanian speakers in the city was negligible. I am going to include the new findings and the Niwiński's stats in mainspace. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:45, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

What is the connection between Auschwitz camp and demographic structure of Oświęcim?

"When the killings started, the number of Lithuanian speakers in the city was negligible." - so what? BTW - Lithuania obtained Wilno region in 1939 and a number of Lithuanians moved there (some of them returned after about 20 years).Xx236 (talk) 06:50, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

The text should inform not only about Ponary executions but also about Lithuanian Security Police.Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

• I find your attitude toward my inquiry condescending, and the rhetorical question regarding the (quote-unquote) connection between Auschwitz complex and the demographic structure of Oświęcim – in reply to my analysis of the Ponary massacre victims by nationality – vacuous and obtuse. Sorry. This article is about the Holocaust in Poland. The persecution of Lithuanian-speaking Jews (including by LSP) as described by Lithuanian historians (Bubnys, 1997) was taking place elsewhere in occupied Lithuania, not in formerly Polish Wilno, where all ~ 22,000 victims were Polish, hence the connection with the article subject. Victims of the Holocaust by bullets at Ponary were not Lithuanian. Poeticbent talk 18:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

The Lithuanian Security Police acted also in Wilno. Alaksadras Lileikis was the leader. They persecuted Jews and ethnic Poles.

At least one thousand of ethnic Poles was murdered in Ponary.

It's quite probable that Jews murdered in Ponary were citizens of Poland, but a source is neede rather than OR. Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Not only Jedwabne

There was a series of pogroms in the region in about 20 places. Two pogroms took place probably without any German participation - Szczuczyn, Kolno. Jedwabne is so popular thanks to the JT Gross' book. There are hundreds of sources, eg. IPN two volume report, Anna Bikont's book, "Miasta śmierci". Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Szlachta helped hiding Jews

https://wpolityce.pl/historia/391371-to-zascianki-endeckie-i-onr-owskie-uratowaly-najwiecej-zydow-paradoksy-grabowskiego-i-engelking In some areas of GG there were nationalistic zaścianeks (poor szlachta villages) and peasant villages. The zaścianeks saved more Jews than villages. Unfortunately many Jews ignored the difference. Xx236 (talk) 07:54, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Use of Ewa Kurek as a source

The removal of a source (while retaining the text sourced to a different source) was reverted. To begin with iUniverse is a self-publishing company, which would preclude using this source in most situations - however, surprisingly, this is not the most troubling aspect here. The author Ewa Kurek - while she does have a PhD from the Catholic University of Lublin, she is not particularly well published nor cited (note - there is a better published microbiologist with the same name - plwiki entry - so if you go scholar - you need to filter out all the life sciences hits) - nor does it seem does she hold a significant academic post (as of 2006 - wyborcza article on her views on "Jews having fun in the ghetto" - she held a lecturing position in "Higher School of Skills in Kielce" (which seems to mainly do weekend studies - per the city website). Moving a bit onwards, it seems she has quite interesting views about Jews - and it seems she has been called out on it by Poland Stops Ceremony for Author Accused of Anti-Semitism, NY Times (AP reprint) - not only the Jewish community, but it would seem also Polish government officials (yup - the current government). AP leads off with One, Polish author Ewa Kurek, has claimed that Jews had fun in the ghettos during the German occupation of Poland during World War II when describing her, and notes a response by the Polish government "Andrzej Pawluszek, an adviser to Poland's prime minister, said Wednesday that the award was never a government initiative, but authorities acted to stop an event that would have been divisive.". per Why Was Historian Who Blames Jews For Complicity with Nazis Considered For Humanitarian Prize?, Forward - "“Deeper research” reveals that Kurek says Jewish perfidy is intrinsic to Jewish law and communal organization." (not so deep research - you might see this in the video of her speaking above (which I found prior to this article - containing - “Jews behave like a of lions in a threatening situation,” Kurek says in a YouTube video. “Lions are said to throw the weakest ones to death, to save the rest. And this is the norm among Jews. We Christians, since the beginning of … time, we have one principle: In the situation of a threat, the strong protect the vulnerable. If someone tells you about a Judeo-Christian civilization, then there is no such thing because this law excludes our civilization.”. Some have noted some subtle aspects to her discourse “Kurek is more subtle than David Irving,” Holocaust scholar Berel Lang told the Forward. “She doesn’t deny the genocide but argues rather that the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system.”. In short - we should definitely not be using her as a source in Misplaced Pages for WWII history.Icewhiz (talk) 12:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Note

The above wall-of-text is a multiple copy-paste by User:Icewhiz first added to Talk:Irena Sendler on 25 April 2018, with no relevancy to this article content. Poeticbent talk 15:33, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I have engaged in cleanup of Kurek (thankfully - the red flags around this as a source are quite obvious - and this was used in very few articles). The relevance for this article, as I pointed out in a diff also above - was use of Kurek as source in this article. The paragraph source to her has another supporting reference, so removing this questionable source does not affect this article's text.Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz you copy/pasting same mass wall of text all over. Here !!! 2A01:110F:4505:DC00:D802:543F:9A84:1976 (talk) 06:48, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Use of Mark Paul as a source

I've removed some information sourced to Mark Paul, which was self-published on-line and via PEFINA. This was reverted (note that this affected approx. 2 sentences of text). Per WP:SPS self-published sources are not an acceptable sources generally. Mark Paul (bio details unavailable - it is possible this is pseudo-name or composite) has been publishing "response tracts" to notable works (e.g. Neighbors by Gross, Hunt for the Jews by Grabowski, There once was a world: A 900-Year Chronicle of the Shtetl of Eishyshok by Eliach, etc.) under the Committee for the Defence and Propagation of the Good Name of Poland and the Poles of the Canadian Polish Congress. These works are hardly cited by reliable sources (in google scholar - one of them has 1 cite, if you search via books - you get a bit more hits - but some of the citing books themselves are not reliable (e.g. self-published)). Also at issue is that the online PDFs/Words are updated (they are not static) - and page numbers are liable to change. It is actually quite hard to find RSes covering Mark Paul, however per Allan Levine in a footnote in a new edition of fugitives of the Forest, Ironically, even a cursory examination of The Story of Two Shtetls reveals that Mark Paul and the other authors in this generally anti-Jewish tract rely almost overwhelmingly on Polish secondary sources-rather than archival research-to discount the "Jewish version" of the events described. In other words and without explanation, Polish histories of the Holocaust are taken as the gospel truth, while Jewish sources and testimonies are mostly treated as complete falsehoods.Icewhiz (talk) 14:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Note 2

The above wall-of-text is a multiple copy-paste entry by User:Icewhiz first added to Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust on 25 April 2018, with no relevancy to this article content.

• The argument is not about who said what. – It is yet another attempt at trying to hide whatever inconvenient facts there might be from the history of Polish-Jewish relations by User:Icewhiz who's been pushing his POV in a number of articles for months. Poeticbent talk 14:59, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

  Actually - not a single word was copied from Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust. The source, rather simply, fails as WP:SELFPUBLISHed.Icewhiz (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the same 'meme' was just rewritten by User:Icewhiz to mean exactly the same thing with the use of slightly different words. I repeat, his intentions are quite obvious throughout. Please look at his edit wars, and the AN/I reports. There's no end to it. Poeticbent talk 15:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive981#Disruptive editing on pages under DS:Eastern Europe

Claims made in the Hunt for the Jews by Grabowski (which User:Icewhiz is POV-pushing hard in mostly pathetic edit wars) is an absolute joke never reviewed for accuracy by any reputable historian of the Holocaust whatsoever. Some authors mention his work in their 'Notes', that's all. Grabowski however, is a new darling of Haaretz. Icewhiz is single-handedly trying to make him into something he isn't by gaming the system under false pretences. Poeticbent talk 15:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

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