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Third holiest site in Islam

Article misuses WP:V to present numerous sources of dubious reliability and violates Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information. Amerique 07:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The terminology 3rd site by its virtue came from a hadith by Prophet Muhammad. It is really wrong to cite from here and there to prove otherwise. If this article is written to explain this terminology used in Islam, it is fine. The article went far beyond explaining this to actually try and dispute it. Something that cannot be really understood and is certainly not anymore explaining an Islamic terminology. Almaqdisi 10:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep and Thorough revision The introduction is not informative and it is very hard to understand why this is an interesting topic. Once this is solved, the rest of the article seems to make some sense. Arnoutf 14:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and revise with references. --Buridan 17:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The article is just a bombastic collection of any page/article/post on the internet wherever any other 'third' holiest site is mentioned without any consideration to the reliability of the source to try to dispute a well-established claim. Already 2 links that are the only sources for 2 sections in this article no longer exist or have been updated, yet the creator(s) of this article insists that they be in the article (Why cite an outdated article which the original author himself said was erroneous).I suggest this article be deleted and any third holiest site claim be entered into the respective articles of the proposed sites and clearly mentioning which sect (from the reliable sources ONLY eg: "The shrine at Karbala is considered the third holiest site by many Shiite Muslims") since this article makes it look like a dispute. Thestick 17:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment This article is not necessarily about what traditional Sunni Muslims consider the third holiest site. That is made quite clear on the Al-Aqsa Mosque page and the top of this page. The article provides information as to what the world at large, including many Muslims regard as the third holiest site in Islam. Advocates for deletion of this page accuse the creators of being politically motivated. However, is not their own proposition for deletion of the page itself politically motivated, to try and deny others of this interesting information? As far as I can see, this page doesn't fall under What_Wikipedia_is_not. All the sections are well sourced to provide authentic counter claims to a very significant issue! Chesdovi 09:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment But surely you realize that the article makes no attempt at distinguishing between so-called "claims," beliefs or opinions gathered from various sources, that could be mistaken, from any actual differences in theology between various sects of Islam? The article regards any and all sources with any reference to a third Islamic holy site as equal, rendering undue weight Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight to spurious material and suggesting that all these assorted assertions should be taken equally seriously. This is specious logic. Any actual differences between various sects of Islam, or any religion, would be appropriately discussed within the pages devoted to documenting these distinct religions, including the pages devoted to particular sites that for reasons I can't pretend to know are holy to them, rather than mixing all such sites up with spurious references in an apparent attempt to denature the significance of all forms of Islam and the meaning any such site has within particular forms of Islam. This page seems to me entirely intended to stir up unnecessary conflict and while this is not strictly prohibited on WP I don't find it at all usefull for most users except those users who would get a laugh out of doing this.--Amerique 11:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• That claims, beliefs or opinions could be mistaken is a very strange thing to assume. Let’s take the example of the tour guides. They are not just bits of information thought up by the writer. Someone has actually gone to the place, done research, interacted with the locals to get a review of the place. These are then placed in the guide. Their beliefs are mistaken according to you because in your opinion they are wrong! But I agree we could tidy it up and emphasise more clearly where the theological disputes lie. Undue weight doesn’t apply here, because the original article was included under Al Aqsa Mosque, but was considered to be “undue weight” and therefore a new article was created to conform with the following statement in Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight: views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. This article is devoted to the subject. Additionally, if all the views were to be added to their respective articles it would be difficult to assess all the claims simultaneously. Chesdovi 12:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment "Someone has actually gone to the place, done research, interacted with the locals to get a review of the place. These are then placed in the guide." Are you forgetting that travel agencies exist to do business? Do you think that they'll show any miserable poverty, organized crime and such in a tourist brochure?. And there is 1 dead link, and another outdated faculty handbook that the author himself said contained an error, yet you insist that the old version be linked to and you uploaded it to a freewebs account bearing my username. Also this topic is very well discussed in the List of holy cities article . There is no need to make separate articles for such things like "The fourth tallest building in every country in Asia" etc. Then why not create several articles like "Sixth holiest city in Christianity", "Fourth Holiest site in Buddhism" etc. Thestick 14:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Thestick, you state that the old edition contained an "error", an error left undetected for 2 years 4 months? Was it you who has been in touch with the author for the sole reason of discrediting the source and arranged for a new version to be downloaded on the same link dated 2003 (not 2005)?! The new edition may not mention anything about the mosque, but neither is there a “places to visit” section. In the new version the whole section was left out completely; so who’s to say that just the mosque bit was an “error”?!

Btw travel guides regularly warn tourists of “no-go” areas and to be cautious of pickpockets, etc. They also give a brief synopsis of the area, including details of whether there is poverty, etc. Take the following from wikitravel as an example: Gaza isn't quite the pure hellhole you might expect given TV coverage, although needless to say the birthplace of the Intifada and one of the most overpopulated bits on the entire planet isn't exactly paradise on earth either. A UN report in 1952 stated that the Strip is too small to support its population of 300,000; there are now well over one million inhabitants and the January 2002 latest figures from the Palestinian Authority put unemployment at a whopping 79%. Most inhabitants are Palestinian refugees who fled the 1948 war but were denied entry into Egypt proper. Chesdovi 16:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

“There is no need to make separate articles for such things like "The fourth tallest building in every country in Asia”

That’s because they are concrete (excuse the pun) facts and are not the subject of ambiguity. (They are listed on wikipedia’s more exclusive pages, e.g: List of tallest buildings in Toronto). However the third holiest site is a common term, and itself a matter of debate with numerous other sites vying for the position! That is why it requires its own page.Chesdovi 16:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not going to bother arguing since any source that states anything else other than the Al-Aqsa mosque is the third holiest site in Islam is perfectly acceptable to the creator of the article. Wikitravel is different from some travel agency that needs to make money. And yes, that error went undetected for more than 2 years, until you brought it to their attention. Also, there is no other source on the internet that says the Jawatha mosque is the third holiest site in Islam. To understand the political inclination just take a look at the first version of the article Thestick 16:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Till I brought it to their attention??!! Chesdovi 16:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• Sorry, till I did (sleepy) but let's not deviate of the topic Thestick 17:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• There is no question that this article is not written to explain an Islamic concept but rather to spread confusion about it and false information. You cannot just bring any claim and say that some muslims believe that this is a 3rd Holy site etc. I wonder why not finding out also what some muslims consider the fourth site in Islam? What might be also the Second? What is the first? This article is becoming a polling station and not explaining a well-established undisputed Islamic terminology appearing in authentic Islamic texts? When saying "in Islam", is different than saying "by some Muslims". I believe the article is just written to dispute the Importance of Jerusalem in Islam. Almaqdisi 15:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Thestick, it is interesting that whenever the al aqsa mosque is mentioned the need to assert it as the “third holiest site”, goes hand in hand. THIS is the recent creation. A recent creation aimed at aiding the political intentions of the Muslim world. If, as you demonstrated, it IS the 3rd holiest, why stop there, whenever a Muslim holy site is mentioned, say what number down the list it comes? Is Baghdad known as the fourth holiest, Samarkand as the tenth holiest? Etc. I will settle for deleting the page if on the Al Aqsa mosque page or any other on wikipedia, no reference is made that it known as the “third holiest site”.
• Almaqdisi, no one doubts the importance in Islam of Jerusalem. However whenever the term “third holiest” is applied to the temple mount complex, the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined. Why the need to emphasise the third, fourth, etc.? It is to bolster the claim. This is an unnecessary politically motivated term which should be discarded. Chesdovi 17:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• Thestick: "why not create several articles like "Sixth holiest city in Christianity", "Fourth Holiest site in Buddhism" etc. Well, it seems it is only Muslims who insist on short listing there sites! If there are enough of a variety for the other religions, why not? In fact I intend to do so, and I'm sure it won't cause such a ruckus as it has done with the Muslims. Chesdovi 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• Thestick: Google search: “third holiest site Buddhism”, Result: The noble sanctuary, the third holiest site in Islam. Google search: “third holiest site Christianity”. Result: Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam.

You see, it’s only the Muslims who refer to any site as the third holiest. This is for a reason, not just because it happens to be so! Chesdovi 17:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• ^ The above responses confirm the political/religious/whatever inclinations of this article.. Furthermore, this is an AfD page, not a page to discuss politics, anyway I'll answer your points one by one :

• "I will settle for deleting the page if on the Al Aqsa mosque page or any other on wikipedia, no reference is made that it known as the “third holiest site”. ". -Then to be fair, any reference made in the temple mount article that it is the holiest site in Judaism will have to be removed too (This is based on your argument, I don't feel this needs to be done).

• You cannot compare a site which is considered the holiest to a religion to one which is third holiest. Once upon a time a site considered the holiest was a point of interest, now because of Muslim discomfort at the situation in Jerusalem, it has to be extended to the "third holiest"!? Chesdovi 17:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• The Al Aqsa mosque has been mentioned as the third holiest site in Islamic doctrine for over ~1400 years. This has already been shown to you time and time again, yet you still keep saying it is a recent political creation based on an erroneous and hardline article circulating through some hardline Jewish POV websites that does not qualify for WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV. If you want to post information based on that article, this is not the place to do it.
• "it IS the 3rd holiest, why stop there, whenever a Muslim holy site is mentioned, say what number down the list it comes". - There are only '3' according to mainstream Islam, and the articles about all 3 of them contain which number down the list it comes.
• "It is to bolster the claim. This is an unnecessary politically motivated term which should be discarded." - This is nothing but your personal POV.
• "Thestick: Google search: “third holiest site Buddhism”, Result: The noble sanctuary, the third holiest site in Islam. Google search: “third holiest site Christianity”. Result: Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam." - I seriously dont understand what this has to do with the AfD proposal of this article, but - Try running those searches again, this time with the whole phrase in double quotes.

• Doesn't help, I even tried with quadruple double quotes and it never fails to come up with Islam’s third holiest site, the first result noch! No third holiest site in buddhism. Sorry! Chesdovi 11:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• "However whenever the term “third holiest” is applied to the temple mount complex, the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined." - Once again, this is nothing but your personal POV

• This is actually a fact, it’s human nature – but your entitled to your view Chesdovi 11:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• "You see, it’s only the Muslims who refer to any site as the third holiest. This is for a reason, not just because it happens to be so!" - They are most certainly not the only ones, and again, just your erroneous POV. Thestick 18:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Chesdovi, The word third comes from a hadith that says, that the virtue of praying at the site of al-Masjid al-Aqsa, or al-Masjid al-Haram or Masjid al-Madina is not like any other place. The hadith talks about the virtue and reward of praying at these sites. It does not talk about Holiness. The word Holy, 'Mukaddas' is not mentioned in the Hadith. Therefore, the Hadith continues, only to these 3 sites you may go on journey, and anywhere else on this earth, the prayer has the same virtue. There are no political agendas etc, this has been said 1400 years ago. These sites were chosen by the following Prophets of Islam: Ibrahim and his sons, Yakub and his sons, and Muhammad.

According to Islamic teachings, the Quran allocates much of its text arguing that the Message of the Prophets of Islam as being one message, from the same God (Allah, or Elohim). Furthermore, regarding the Temple Mount, historical sources show that when Muslims entered Jerusalem during the time of Umar, they did not find Jews having any temple or worshiping at the site. Hence, the Covenant of Umar did not address that, and only mentioned protecting the Churchs of the Christians etc. No mentionig of protecting the Temple Mount as a site for Jews. Having said so, Muslims believe they fullfilled the Prophecy of other previous Prophets of Islam by re-constructing the Masjid, 2nd after Mecca' masjid, that was mentioned and illuded at various places in the Quran text. Almaqdisi 18:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Almaqdisi, a few observations:

"The word third comes from a hadith that says, that the virtue of praying at the site of al-Masjid al-Aqsa, or al-Masjid al-Haram or Masjid al-Madina is not like any other place. The hadith talks about the virtue and reward of praying at these sites." Please provide where it says that the mosque in Jerusalem is Third and Holy. The following hadith places Jerusalem second in the list: Template:Bukhari-usc, maybe it is therefore second holiest? It may be more virtuous, but is that isn’t the same as holiness. Maybe it should be called third virtuous site in Islam?

"It does not talk about Holiness. The word Holy, 'Mukaddas' is not mentioned in the Hadith. Therefore, the Hadith continues, only to these 3 sites you may go on journey, and anywhere else on this earth, the prayer has the same virtue." If it doesn’t actually say holy – why is it called third holiest? The temple is called beit haMikdash – the Holy house – no ambiguity there! Maybe it should be called "the third pilgrim site in Islam".

"There are no political agendas etc, this has been said 1,400 years ago". What has been said 1,400 years ago? Provide the word holy. Did Muhammed say it was a holy place or just a good place to say a pray in? Jacob also never said it was a holy place but he summed it up 500 times better than the hadith does: "He was afraid and said: How awesome is this place, it is none other than the house of God and the gate to heaven":

“they did not find Jews having any temple or worshiping at the site. Hence, the Covenant of Umar did not address that, and only mentioned protecting the Churchs of the Christians etc. No mentionig of protecting the Temple Mount as a site for Jews.”According to you, Neither was it a place of muslim worship as the Masjid had to be re-constructed. Umer found Jews in Jerusalem did he find any Muslims? Yes the ones who he had come with him, sword in hand, to occupy the city and the Jews holy site as Kaab al-Ahbar told him.

"Muslims believe they fulfilled the Prophecy of other previous Prophets of Islam by re-constructing the Masjid, 2nd after Mecca' masjid". I thought the second mosque was Jwatha, the site of Muhammad second Friday prayer?

There are also other hadiths which say otherwise:Our sixth imam, Imam Sardeg, says that we have five definitive holy places that we respect very much. The first is Mecca, which belongs to God. The second is Medina, which belongs to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the messenger of God. The third belongs to our first imam of Shia, Ali, which is in Najaf. The fourth belongs to our third imam, Hussein, in Karbala. The last one belongs to the daughter of our seventh imam and sister of our eighth imam, who is called Fatemah, and will be buried in Qom. Pilgrims and those who visit her holy shrine, I promise to these men and women that God will open all the doors of Heaven to them. Is there something missing? Chesdovi 11:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• The site is among the 3 holiest sites in Islam. First it is the Masjid Al-Haram, second is Al-Masjid al-Nabawi at last is Al-Aqsa Mosque. There are several virtues of the Al-Aqsa Mosque which ave been shown to you time and time again yet still fail to understand it. It's obvious from your previous comments that all you are trying to do is discredit this well established historical and theological fact by any means necessary because for some reason you feel by saying it is the third holiest site in Islam "the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined.".This article is a result of that, and it's content is just WikiLawyering Thestick 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep of course. A POV nomination trying to censor information. Amoruso 09:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep as I have not been convinced that the title “third holiest site in Islam” refers solely to Jerusalem. Millions of Shia do not agree with this and although “mainstream” Muslims currently refer to the al aqsa as third holiest, there has been no unambiguous proof from the hadith or Koran or any other Islamic holy book that any site, let alone Jerusalem was to be considered 'Mukaddas' or holier than any other place. That others sites are also considered third holiest must not be subdued and should not be seen as a slight against Islamic sentiment…. Just as I would personally not take issue with a page devoted to whether Rachel's Tomb, Tiberius, Safed or Hebron or Mecca is considered the third holiest site in Judaism. Chesdovi 17:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Chesdovi, I repeat. There are many hadiths that discusses al-Masjid al-Aqsa. There is one of them mentioning that it is the second masjid designated to worhsip Allah on earth. The first was masjid al-Haram, the second is masjid al-Aqsa. These spots were chosen by God according to muslims long long before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad. In Quran, prophet Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets of Islam. Prophet Muhammad called to the same Religion of Ibrahim and Ismail and Isaac and Jacob according to Quran. These are Quranic statements. Hence, 1400 years ago, these Hadiths mentioned the virtue of praying at al-Aqsa mosque. Only these sites which were built by Prophets have such a virtue. Anywhere else, does not. This is mentioend in article anyway. There is really no need to confuse things up. It is not true to keep arguing that the Shiites discredit Jerusalem position in Islam. Do you have a conclusive evidence. Hezbollah, which is Shiite, would strongly disgree with this. AhmadiNajad himself disagree with that. Finally, there is no point to keep looking around to find and Quote just any muslims who talks about what he thinks is holy and what is not. I can find many websites on the internet which mentions that no vistited that moon!! This is a distortion and are not considered authentic sources. Just giving names here and there will not be as credible as sources muslims continue to use for 1400 all attributed to the Prophet of Islam Muhammad. Almaqdisi 20:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• But there is a page devoted to this subject! Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations Chesdovi 12:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep, there has never been a defined third holiest site. Mecca and Medina are the only holy cities, and the title third holiest wasnt used until the 20th century. Other sites may play a significant role, it can be written here. --Shamir1 22:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep: I find the reason for this nomination extremely weak. Of course, some improvement, NPOVification, etc. would help, but I don't think the content of the article qualifies as "an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information". On the contrary: it makes an attempt to systematize information that interests so many people today and is in the news all the time. And WP:NOT#Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia. ←Humus sapiens 06:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• DELETE: The reason being that that there is a misuse of terminology here. Muslim resources describe al-Masjid al-Aqsa as the third virtuous masjid in Islam. The origin of the word 'third' really comes from this:

The Sahih Bukhari quotes Abu al-Dardaa as saying: "the Prophet of Allah Muhammad said a prayer in the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) is worth 100,000 prayers; a prayer in my mosque (in Medina) is worth 1,000 prayers; and a prayer in al-Masjid al-Aqsa is worth 500 prayers more than in an any other mosque.

• Then Mecca should be known as the most holiest site in Islam and Jerusalem as “the least holiest site in Islam”? I mean 500 is quite a drop from 100,000. Should Al Aqsa be on the virtuous list at all? Chesdovi 12:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Praying anywhere else on the earth apart from these three mosques has the same virtue according to the Islamic teachings. It is also described as being the second masjid established on earth (by Jacob) after the one in Mecca (by Abraham). Finally, the same spot was the first Qibla. Hence, if the terminology Third Holiest is used by some, it is really meant to be Third masjid by its virtue. Almaqdisi 06:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• what about the following: It should also be noted that in regard to Fazilat (auspiciousness), as per few references, it is learnt that the Great Mosque of Kufa is better than the mosque of Al-Aqsa. Hazrat Imam Muhammad Bakar had told that if anybody who performs his essential prayer in this mosque, shall be given a benefit of one Haj and if any person performs non-essential prayer in this mosque shall be given the benefit of one Umra. And Dargah Sharief in Ajmer, the most famous Muslim pilgrimage center in India. It is considered the second holiest pilgrim site after Mecca - it is believed that seven pilgrimages to Ajmer equal one to Mecca.Chesdovi 12:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• The only source which says the great mosque of Kufa is the third holiest site in Islam is someones personal 8m website which Im sure isnt qualified for WP:RS. And the only source of the Dargah Sharief claim is travelvideosonline.com . Same goes for the erroneus KFUPM faculty handbook which you seemed to be so keen on preserving it by uploading it on a freewebs account bearing my username (You thought it was funny?), and the only source of that blue mosque in Afghanistan is dead!According to WP Policy and guidelines Im confident a big chunk of this article can be deleted with no contest the'''s'''tick 12:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• If you don’t think Syed Mazhar Saeed Kazmi report is a WP:RS and that his assertion the at he great mosque of Kufa is more auspicious you better had check his CV: He was is a member of The Council of Islamic Ideology and taught as professor at Baha-ud-Din Zakaria University, Multan & the University of Karachi. He is on the Advisory Committee of the 1st International Conference on Advances in Space Technologies for Disaster Management and Rehabilitation, Islamabad, Pakistan, and the Deputy Director of WAPDA.

• With regards to the KFUPM faculty handbook, I thought it was only natural that you would want to be associated with it as you went to such lengths to get the latest version uploaded on the same link.

• Rawze-e-Sharif, Afghanistan: The link may be dead –(did you also have a hand it that?) but the information is there and recorded for eternity! Chesdovi 13:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete, This is extraordinary; again the same gang of Pro-Israelis is misusing wikipedia for their own agenda. The article in question is very dubious and serves no good faith purpose other than doubting Al Quds-Jerusalem’s place in Islam. It is widely accepted between Muslims (Sunni and Shi’a) that Al Quds is the 3rd Holiest city of Islam even the vast majority of Shi’a state this loud and clear and they regard the Mosque of Ali (AS) as the 4th holiest mosque/city. Now, a few point towards the facts:

• It is the Place where Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) ascended into the Heavens ("Israa and Miraaj).
• In the Holy Qur’an, in the first verse of Chapter 17 entitled 'The Children of Israel / Bani Israel. '

"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things." (17:1) Qur’an

• Jerusalem was the first "Qibla" for ALL Muslims.

• Prophet Mohammed said: “"There are only three mosques to which you should embark on a journey: the sacred mosque (Mekkah), this mosque of mine (Madinah), and the mosque of Al-Aqsa (Al-Quds)”.

• Since Muslims believe in Prophets Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus, then they also recognise the sacredness and importance of Jerusalem in Islam.

• The site of the Haram al Shareef (temple Mount) was a garbage dump, a dunghill for the people of Jerusalem. But Caliph Omar, upon learning this was the site of the Masjid of Al Quds-Jerusalem cleaned the place with his own hands and put his forehead in payer on that ground.

• Muslims rule of this city was longest out of the three faiths (Islam, Christianity and Judaism), this proves that Muslims regarded the city with respect and sanctity.

• Many Muslim scholars also migrated and settled in the city.

• Add to that the Google search experiment it becomes clear that the only SANE option here is to delete this article.

As for the other supposedly third holiest sites, they can be mentioned (if referenced thoroughly) as part of Jerusalem’s religious significance or as a foot note in Al-Quds article since the other sites significance represent a largely non Muslim misconception. The points I listed above distinguish Jerusalem from the other suggested sites. Palestine48 06:38, 25 October 2006

Please restrict your ad hominem attacks on fellow editors of Misplaced Pages, please. This article is on a discussion on an issue. Misplaced Pages is not a place to promote specific ideals and stifle other views. Whether or not the Quran may call it the third holiest site, or no matter how much you wish to quote from it, it does not change the fact that there are views on the third holiest site of Islam, and hence this article will be pertinent. If you have a view that opposes these arguments, do put them on the article. This is what Misplaced Pages is for. Ariedartin JECJY 07:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Issue is needy of cleanup, but is nonetheless pertinent and has potential. Ariedartin JECJY 07:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Am a tad flummoxed by the objections. Surely they can be satisfied through appropriate edits? I think the article, as it currently appears, is amply documented and deals with a significant and notable concept.--Mantanmoreland 12:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Improve through edits, but keep this interesting article. Elizmr 12:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep and clean-up. The article is in its early stages, but it has enough verifiable info, IMHO, to establish that the topic is encyclopedic and meets Misplaced Pages's list guidelines. If I understand correctly, there does not seem to be much dispute that Mecca and Medina are the two holiest sites in Islam, but there are several sites in contention for the title of "third holiest site." I understand that this idea is offensive to people who strongly believe that only one of the contenders is the 3rd holiest, but most or all of the entries seem to have verifiable and reliable sources for their inclusion, and if people disagree with one source or another, the solution is editing, not deletion.

• In terms of the article clean-up, and I should stress that none of this even begins to support deletion in my view, I would encourage the article's editors to (1) write a clear and sourced introduction laying out the issue neutrally; (2) maybe request peer review to get some outside suggestions in how to improve the article; and (3) invite the members of Project Islam to chime in, particularly if they have access to more resources identifying the various contenders. Thanks, TheronJ 13:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Compare these two articles created by Amoruso: This article in its original form and the article on policide in its original form. Ah, these are just POV issues and that is no good reason to delete articles I hear Amoruso say. No it isn't a mere POV issue at all! A pure POV dispute relating to an article does not merit AFD, except perhaps in extreme cases. You can imagine someone starting an article on some topic, and some other editors come along and they have a genuine debate on that topic. Here we are dealing with articles that are created for POV reasons relating to some other topic. This is similar to the POV Forking problem with the difference that the POV issue does not have to stem from another wiki article.

Amoruso could just have well started an article on poodles with the first sentence saying that it is a type of dog but then diverting to Blair and framing the whole article around the relation Bush-Blair. AFD would then be warranted because the issue then has nothing to do with a POV debate on poodles. It's also no good saying that the article should be kept because an article on poodles has potential. A genuine article on poodles would be so different from the original that it would be best created by a good faith editor who wants to write about poodles. Also, by keeping the article Amoruso would have shifted the burden on writing a NPOV article on poodles to others. The only good reason to vote to keep would be if you are willing to put in the effort to transform the article to a genuine article about the subject yourself.

This issue reminds me of the recent AFD debate on Heim theory. There the source of the problem was different than in this case but there are some parallels. There you have POV pushers who want to promote a particular pseudoscientific topic. It then became too much of a burden for the editors of wiki project physics (who are mostly professional physicists) to keep the article in a "NO OR" and "No POV" form. They wanted to delete the article. I voted for keep because like some who voted for keep here, I am of the opinion that the pseudoscientific topic was notable. But then I was told by the others of the physics project that I should then become personally involved in editing that article. It is no good to just say "keep" because it can be made NPOV and then run away from the task of actually putting in the effort to improve the article. After the AFD vote I rewrote the article in an aceptable form.

So, in conclusion, my opinion is that the article should be deleted unless good faith editors with no agenda stand up right now who are willing to invest the time and effort to rewrite the article. The option of keeping and "let's see later how we improve it", is not adequate because Amoruso can create new articles written in bad faith faster than good faith editors can be found to step in every time he does so. Count Iblis 13:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Unfortunately this editor also has his own agenda; you can see how he messaged no less than 9 (at my last count) pro-Arab members to vote against Amoruso’s latest article. He is against anything considered by him/her to be remotely conceived as anti-Arab. This article was in fact not "created for POV reasons relating to some other topic" but was originally part of the al aqsa mosque page but was considered to be “undue weight” and therefore a new article was created to conform with the following statement in Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight: views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. This article is devoted to the subject. Chesdovi 13:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. I'm for neutrality which perhaps to some pro-Israeli editors is seen as "against anything considered by him/her to be remotely conceived as anti-Arab.". You obviously did not see my edit on the Hamas page changing "attacks" to "military action and terrorism". I don't shy away from being neutral at all. I stand by my opinion that the article was created in bad faith. Such articles should be deleted unless others stand up and write a serious article on the topic.Count Iblis 14:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment:The above is a completely unnecessary personal attack accusing Amoruso of poor faith. It is counter to wikipedia policy WP:AGF. Various editors here have various opinions here on Misplaced Pages; that's a reality. According to the WP:NPOV policy, the truth is in the combination of all the well cited neutrally stated views, not in any particlar POV. Misplaced Pages is not a product of a totalitarian regime and is not propaganda. Therefore, everyone is going to disagree with some content here or other. AFDing articles that are not agreed with is really a form of censorship and violates WP:DEL. Elizmr 13:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC) NOTE: edit conflict; the user being discussed here is Count Iblis. Elizmr 13:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The evidence of poor faith is in the original version of the article, and it wasn't the first time. As explained above in detail this is not a mere POV issue. You can have a POV discussion on poodles but you should not create an article on poodles because of your POV on Blair. Count Iblis 14:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

As Chesdovi demonstrated above, your allegations make no sense what-so-ever. Not only you've recruited many POV pushers including the banned Yas121 to influence articles violating the basis of wikipedia, now you have the audacity to attack other users. Sad. This original article was part of the Al Aqsa Mosque article, and it was moved to an own article as part of a proposed compromise - I suggest you see the discussion of the original article first before spreading any bull around again. Just look at this person sick recruitment attempt of POV to censor another legitimate article that was speedily kept. Amoruso 10:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I asked some people to look at the policide article which was written for POV purposes. The fact that some of them may not be neutral in Israeli-Palestinian conflict exactly undermines your argument, because the concept of policide should have nothing to do with this conflict. To use the "poodle" analogy, it's like accusing someone for recruiting people with a pro-Blair bias to take a look at the poodle article. The article was only speedly kept because the POV aspects were being edited out by other editors and I wrote on the AFD page that I was satisfied with that. Count Iblis 12:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: (I'm not responding to anyone specifically, just making a general suggestion). I think it would be helpful if people tried their best to confine their discussion to the merits of deletion/non-deletion, and to identifying the specific policies and guidelines that apply, rather than analyzing the motivations of the article creators, and AFD commentators. The admin who closes this will do so based on the reasoning presented about the article, so all the comments about people's motivations, while I'm sure well intentioned, are distracting from the central issue of whether we should delete this article. You're all swell editors, whether you're pro-Star Bellied Snitches or anti-. Thanks, TheronJ 13:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. Chesdovi, the creator of this article and major contributor to it's content (before Amoruso moved it to a seperate article from the Al-Aqsa Mosque) himself admitted this is because he thinks its role in Judaism is sidelined because of it's status as the third holiest site for Muslims. He pretends this article he created is devoted to minority views, yet his own comments on this very same page prove he just wants to satisfy his personal agendas.

• When the original article was written is was not to put at rest my personal POV. The quote of mine you bring was commenting in a discussion with Almaqdisi on why I think the term has been used, not the raison d’etre why the article was written. Besides I have already answered thestick regarding this by saying that this is actually a fact; it’s human nature that when “third holiest” is applied to the temple mount complex, the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined. It suddenly isn’t an exclusive holy site for one religion but also has a great deal of significance for another one. Chesdovi 15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

"One should travel only for visiting three Masajid (Mosques): Masjid-ul-Haram (Mecca), Masjid-ul-Aqsa (Jerusalem), and this (my) Mosque (at Medina)." - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 31, Number 215

• So let Al Aqsa be called the third site of pilgrimage, why insist on “holiest” when the word doesn’t even appear in the hadith? Chesdovi 15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This hadith and the others arguments provided by Palestine48, and are much more reliable as evidence, as opposed to quotes from tourist brochures, travel websites, and other such dubious sources. - Mlaheji 14:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have yet to find where on Misplaced Pages it says that tourist brochures, travel websites are dubious sources, if anything they represent the views of the local population who were no doubt consulted of their views on the site. Chesdovi 15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but if there are muslims who still believe otherwise? Ariedartin JECJY 14:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Whatever action is taken, we should make the best decision based on the perspective of these people both for the people searching information and for wikipedia's reputation. A large fraction of the people who read will probably never use wikipedia for reliable information about the Mid East anytime soon. Count Iblis 15:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this is not an article that is devoted to any sort of minorty view. All it does is personify websites regardless of their reliabilty and accuracy and gives the illusion that there is a group of people that believe so. Just look at some of the statements - "IslamicTouism goes further and bypasses Medina stating “Najaf, home to the shrine of Imam Ali, the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, is Muslim Shiites second holiest site after Mecca in Saudi Arabia”. " . And again, the creator himself mentioned his personal agendas behind the article on this page itself. To summarise it's WikiLawyering, not in line with principles of WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV and is openly Bad Faith Also, THIS is the original version of his article --> the'''s'''tick 15:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• The first paragraph is being attributed to my POV, but in fact this was an introduction to the subject I took from a website (later on to be added as a link) after I proceeded to do more research on the matter. Initially I had found that Hala Sultan Tekke was also considered as third holiest and thought the best way to including in the page was by providing the short introduction. Subsequent edits rephrased the introduction until it was considered NPOV. So what’s the problem? Chesdovi 15:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• I am not attributing it to your POV, you quoted and for some time vehemently defended that statement from an external link that was already shown to be erroneous and biased until the article was submitted for review. And you still keep restoring those sections of which the only sources (dubious sources too) no longer exist. the'''s'''tick 16:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• "you quoted and for some time vehemently defended that statement from an external link that was already shown to be erroneous and biased" I don’t remember – In fact I have checked at it was I who removed the alleged POV! Chesdovi 16:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per Humus. IronDuke 15:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete The third holiest site in Islam is al-Aqsa mosque, which already has a Misplaced Pages entry. This page does nothing but compile dubious assertions that attempt to challenge what is readily acknowledged to be the third holiest site in Islam. Some of the information in this article can be added to the respective pages for each of the holy sites listed, most of which already have their own pages as well. The article as titled and constructed is totally unencyclopedic and seems to have a POV pushing agenda. Respect. Tiamut 19:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Unencyclopaedic, argumentation. Palmiro | Talk 20:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The only purpose of this article is to mock Muslim claims about Al-Aqsa mosque. It was created and continues to be maintained for that purpose and no other. The sources are mostly junk found with Google. Misplaced Pages is not a damned soap box. --Zero 13:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: There are verifiable and reliable citations that although the Al-Aqsa mosque is the site most frequently referred to as the "third holiest," there are other contenders. The solution to any remaining problems is clean-up, not deletion, IMHO. TheronJ 13:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the location of the Jewish Temple has also been proposed by some sources not to be in Jerusalem but other places. If you are okay with creating an article entitled "Holiest City in Judaism" based on those sources and commence with a list of every bigot, racist, or purely mistaken (or mistyped) source that has said that the Temple was actually in Saudi Arabia or Nablus or the Sinai, then you would have more of a reason to argue for the existence of an entire article dedicated to such nonsense. Ramallite 13:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

BEAUTIFUL. Without realising it, you've just proven the whole point. Jerusalem is not holy to Jews because it has a holy site in it. It's holy to Judaism as a CITY . You'll have a hard time to argue with the thousands of its mentions in Jewish bible, history, folklore, poetry, prose, Mishnah and Talmud and it's importance to Jews. Therefore, your comment is irrelevant even if it was based on anything. Amoruso 14:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

UGLY. Fully realising it, you've just missed the whole point. The point is not the status of Jerusalem in Jewish folkore (or Islamic/Christian folklore, of which there is also plenty), the point, as you know, is the false pretenses and sloppy sources involved in creating an entire article about the importance of Jerusalem in Islam. We can argue about which houses in French Hill and which shopping malls in Telpiot have more songs sung about them by which group some other time, when I'm really really bored. Besides, what you wrote above is not accurate because you've confused 'holy' with 'historic capital'. Ramallite 14:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. And salvageable part can be merged into Al-Aqsa Mosque. This is just a tirade mocking Muslim claims, as Zero correctly said. Some quotations are laughable, like quoting what CNN once said. CNN once referred to Ariel Sharon as the President of Israel, does that make it worthy of a WP entry? Most of the quotations are NOT authorities in Islamic history of religion. The purpose, as well as the content, of this article is highly offensive because it is not done in good faith and moreover uses sloppy sources. Ramallite 13:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: You might not realise it but the question of the place of Al Aqsa was highly disputed in Islamic circles at the time. As the sources show, it's still disputed by some today. Other muslims believe that other sites are more important. Even the pov proposer like Almaqdisi admits that there's a big difference between what sunni and shia think on the subject, and this is all relevant info to depict. It was already in the Al Aqsa Article but people thought it was given undue weight so it was moved in compromise. Obviously, this is all pertinent information. These other sites exist and are very imporant for Muslims and many regard them as the most important behind the undisputed Mecca (and Medina). Amoruso 14:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The "dispute" you speak of is because 'some Muslims did not feel comfortable with the notion that the Masjid Al-Aqsa is the very same "Temple of Bani Isra'il" (Bnei Yisrael) because that's (according to how I've always interpreted it) how it's described in the Qur'an. The verse that describes the 'Masjid al Aqsa' in the Qur'an is immediately followed by sentences mentioning 'Bani Isra'il' a number of times. In Islam, G-d has commanded the 'faithful' to fill in and take over from the followers of Moses and "the son of Mary" because they betrayed their covenant with Him. So He sends his final message to the world through the Qur'an. Jerusalem was the first Qibla in Islam, partly because of the Jewish influence on Mohammad in Medina. Things changed after he had a falling out with them. But there is no question in my mind that any dispute over the 'Masjid al-Aqsa' is marginal and irrelevant. Ramallite 14:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep informative, i have not been convinced of its lack of merit for inclusion. --Striver 15:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

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