Revision as of 11:20, 17 May 2018 editBishonen (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,260 edits →Result of the appeal by Cassianto: to Sandstein← Previous edit | Revision as of 11:31, 17 May 2018 edit undoSerial Number 54129 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers99,433 edits →Statement by Cassianto: Requested from talk page.Next edit → | ||
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of , on a ], to an {{u|Bishonen|uninvolved administrator}} on their talk page. {{u|NeilN|Another helpful admin}} was also present and between them they brought calm back to Sinatra and one of the committee's coverted DS notice was dished out by the ever so helpful {{u|RexxS}}. I was not "discussing" infoboxes and the use of them. To have a "discussion" about Infoboxes would require at least two people to...erm... '''discuss''' them, and a discussion, in its literal sense, would require at least two comments from either side. I am fully aware of my limitations, . I was trying to be transparent by reporting this over wiki and seeing as this case was "not about Cassianto", then you should all be thankful that I'm helping to fight this problem rather than aid it. Both Bishonen and NeilN have stated that it never even occurred to them that my report was in breach of this clumsily written sanction. Clearly, this is just another example of someone with tools not able to write a clear and coherent instruction; quite what Sandstain's use of "abstract" means is beyond me. But if the committee really want to force me underground to email people off-wiki about such matters, then fine, I will, and none of you will be able to prove otherwise. | of , on a ], to an {{u|Bishonen|uninvolved administrator}} on their talk page. {{u|NeilN|Another helpful admin}} was also present and between them they brought calm back to Sinatra and one of the committee's coverted DS notice was dished out by the ever so helpful {{u|RexxS}}. I was not "discussing" infoboxes and the use of them. To have a "discussion" about Infoboxes would require at least two people to...erm... '''discuss''' them, and a discussion, in its literal sense, would require at least two comments from either side. I am fully aware of my limitations, . I was trying to be transparent by reporting this over wiki and seeing as this case was "not about Cassianto", then you should all be thankful that I'm helping to fight this problem rather than aid it. Both Bishonen and NeilN have stated that it never even occurred to them that my report was in breach of this clumsily written sanction. Clearly, this is just another example of someone with tools not able to write a clear and coherent instruction; quite what Sandstain's use of "abstract" means is beyond me. But if the committee really want to force me underground to email people off-wiki about such matters, then fine, I will, and none of you will be able to prove otherwise. | ||
Re Sandstein: "No, I'm not defending the reverted edit, it's clearly disruptive trolling. But as a topic-banned editor, Cassianto should have let somebody else address it." -- I did, on Bishonen's talk page. This is wholly contradictory, bearing in mind, according to you, I'm banned "in the abstract". How else would you propose that I let Bish know...by the power of positive thought? | |||
===Statement by Sandstein=== | ===Statement by Sandstein=== |
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Capitals00
In no particular order, SheriffIsInTown, Capitals00, NadirAli, JosephusOfJerusalem, D4iNa4, MapSGV, TripWire, Mar4d, MBlaze Lightning and Raymond3023 are all indefinitely banned from edits and pages related to conflict between India and Pakistan, broadly construed. They may appeal this sanction on its merits in the usual ways or at this noticeboard on a showing of six months of positive contributions elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. They are all warned that any further disruption or testing of the edges of the topic ban are likely to be met with either an indefinite IPA topic ban or an indefinite block.Sdmarathe is indefinitely banned from interacting with Vanamonde93, subject to the usual exceptions.I am not going to take any action against Lorstaking at this time, though they should note that some have found their participation on noticeboards, and in particular as it relates to editors named above, to be disruptive and I advise them to go careful in the future. GoldenRing (talk) 09:32, 15 May 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Capitals00
This user has a tradition of accusing any editors he has disagreements with to be ″incompetent″, abusing WP:IDHT in content disputes and general incivility. There's a lot of bad-faith comments and ad hominem personal attacks coming from him. The environment this user is creating throughout the project, regardless of topic area, is unhealthy for Misplaced Pages editing. The block log shows that this historic behaviour is not improving. Which is why I think a very long block is in order. I am going to invite administrator Sandstein who dealt with a similar case with similar users to take a survey of these cases. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 07:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC) Response to Capitals00 by JosephusOfJerusalemWell lets see your defense case. It has not yet been decided by the administrators at Copyright problems/2018 May 10 that there have definitely been copyright violations yet your WP:PERSONALATTACKs and repetitive uncivil accusations of incompetence against NadirAli and SheriffIsInTown are unceasing and relentless. So you were already skating on thin ice there. Your response also does not address the uncalled for WP:ASPERSIONS you cast on Samee. This comment is nowhere near the level of WP:PERSONALATTACK the way your comment is in diff 8. WP:BRD here is no justification for this rude (diff 4) vitriolic accusation of incompetence by you on The Discoverer's talkpage. As for Talk:Siachen conflict it does not matter what consensus is or not until it has been reached. You were making accusations of incompetence and generally incivil replies while discussion was ongoing. Now for your offense case, which is a classic deraiment which cannot justify your misconduct (read WP:NOTTHEM) lets break it down. Going by this user's edit history it is definitely a sleeper account, last active in 2016, then showed up to do a revert and vitriolic talkpost before disappearing and not responding ever again on Talk:Princely state despite the disruption caused. This comment on my talkpage was not a WP:PERSONALATTACK, not least considering that in that context the discussion was initiated by a spurious accusation against me of making ″deceptive pov edits″ (a reference to this plain verifiable edit which has no POV). This edit is an entirely verifiable edit which you wrongly call ″gossip″. The rest of your diffs about me are either before Bishonen's advice or they are a misrepresentation of my messages of appeal to administrators to stop edit wars. The latter is not WP:CANVASSING. Again read WP:NOTTHEM. Your misconduct stands unjustified. The evidence concerning you is definitely more extensive than 10 diffs if I really put my mind to collecting them. An example can be your revert of a WP:STATUSQUO version of History of Gilgit Baltistan with a deceptive edit summary of WP:BRD and again here just today after Mar4d was kind enough to restore the WP:STATUSQUO. It is also worth noting you had no prior or subsequent participation at Talk:Princely state despite the false use of WP:BRD in your edit summary. Response to Raymond3023 by JosephusOfJerusalemYou have not addressed any of Capitals00's misconduct. Rather you have engaged in WP:IDHT by repeating Capitals00's arguments which I have already quashed here. Perhaps it is natural you will defend Capitals00 and D4iNa4 given your history of coordination with them. I point to the evidence of WP:TAGTEAM here
Response to Power~enwiki by JosephusOfJerusalemThis is a critical analysis of your comment, here. You claim ″The Balochistan one makes nobody look good; perhaps those diffs should be ignored.″ I think you are mistakenly making a false equivalence and making a broad generalisation by unfairly painting everyone with the same brush without due regard to the behavioural facts. Lets take a look at what happened. The first reply was from Samee, the second was from me. There were no personal attacks or direct comments about specific editors by either of us. According to Dennis Brown a bit of minor push and shove is okay. Now here is Capitals00's reply to both of us. It is certainly not a minor push and shove. Capitals00 cast WP:ASPERSIONS on Samee, Now lets get to the Capitals00-SheriffIsInTown exchange. This is SheriffIsInTown's comment with no WP:PA. This is Capitals00's reply, Going through this history shows that the problem is coming only from Capitals00's ″side″ here. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 03:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Response to JustlettersandnumbersCan you point out the diffs of ″combative behaviour″? I have already explained in length here, with detailed explanation of diffs, that the problems are entirely one-sided. I agree with SheriffIsInTown's statement that the behavioural problems of a few editors are being unfairly thought of as a problem from everyone. There is no need to create a false equivalence between everyone for the bad actions of a few. Justice does not mean collective punishment, it means identifying the culprit, this is not a Catholic high school where the whole class gets lunch detention because of a few naughty students. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC) Response to Vanamonde93 by JosephusOfJerusalemI don't think its appropriate for you to comment here because you are involved in much of where Capitals00 is and you are also quite evidently friendly with and defensive of Kautilya3. The user you are protecting calls simple edits such as these "deceptive POV edits" and calls my verifiable editing "smearing." He also thinks these simple and verifiable edits are some sort of game. This is an exhibition of battleground behaviour. And shortly after making an incorrect equivalence between me and Capitalsoo's blatant misconduct to ask that I also be blocked with Capitals00, he decides to revert a more than week old edit of mine on a page where both of us had been active and where he had not reverted me before now, since I made the edit. This opportune timing to revert me after commenting against me is also a textbook example of his WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Response to GoldenRing by JosephusOfJerusalem Pt.1You have cited these three diffs, (diff1,diff2,diff3) as ″evidence″ of my misconduct. I made no personal attack here, I was just making a general comment about the nature of the indefinite block request that it seemed like a disproportionate retaliatory request because of NadirAli's involvement in a SPI against Capitals00 in the recent past. According to Dennis Brown a bit of minor push and shove is okay. What is exactly wrong in my recitation of Misplaced Pages guidelines here? It was the most civil response I could give to this inflammatory comment. I deserve marks for keeping my cool in the face of such heat, not punishment. And this diff is by no means a misconduct because WP:RPA entitles any editor to remove personal attacks. My AfD nomination here is by no means actionable. It is an article with only two references, one of them called the "News Laundry". This is also a civil reply considering the heat I was up against. I heeded Bishonen's advice and I did not make any more comments like that after his message on my talkpage. And how is my participation here battleground mentality? I have faced problems with some users' conduct and thats all I wanted dealt with. And why don't you look at Kautilya3 's actions? He calls simple edits such as these "deceptive POV edits" and calls my verifiable editing "smearing." He also thinks these simple and verifiable edits are some sort of game. Isn't this an exhibition of battleground behaviour? And look at this. After I created this section on Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus Kautilya3 left this notice on my talkpage. He accused me of "targeting editors" just because I opened sections with user names in the headings. What's remarkable is that he does that himself, but that is not targeting editors? Just last month he created a section on Talk:1947 Jammu massacres with a heading calling my edits "Poor quality edits". He also accused me then and there of making "POV edits" and fighting "silly games" because of this verifiable edit. Evidently, when I see other TPs, I am not the only user having this issue of double standards with him. You should also consider what I have to face and the civility I have maintained in spite of all this. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 20:43, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Response to GoldenRing by JosephusOfJerusalem Pt.2
"Deceptive POV edits"So this is Kautilya3's justification for calling my edit a "deceptive POV edit". I am going to deconstruct this. 1. NadirAli pointed out that the journal was available online. 2. So this is an organisation funded by the Indian Ministry of Defence. I changed "shaping" to "influencing" because I did not think there was a big deal of a difference. In fact "shaping" in my book implies greater "influence" so I actually toned it down and made it sound extra-neutral. 3. I added "claims to be" before "autonomous and non-partisan" because it came from self-published sources and is a self-sourced claim. 4. I added "independent" to a Pakistani think tank because that is what Pluto Journals, respectably associated with JSTOR called it. I do not accept the sources Kautilya3 added (over the protests of other users) because I think Pluto Journals is more qualified to know the nature of that institution than journalists. The above were essentially content disputes and I know shouldn't be here on WP:AE. But what I am trying to say is that he had no right in any way to call my edit "deceptive POV". JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 03:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC) Response to Seraphimblade by JosephusOfJerusalemSeraphimblade, Lets leave Kautilya3's restrictions aside for a moment. If you think I should be sanctioned for such mild words here, diff1, diff2, diff3, then why shouldn't the same stick be applied to Kautilya3 for these threats and condescending remarks?
If you want more proof then look at this. Kautilya3 left a message on PeerBaba's TP telling him to slow down his editing because of WP:NPOV issues. Okay fine. But why so aghast if I had similar objectons about their edits. He accused me of "spurious WP:IDONTLIKEIT revert" (see diff). His patronising attitude is widespread. My alleged misbehaviour () was before Bishonen's advice to me. Therefore I should be cut some slack about those diffs. I want to ask you Bishonen, that if my "bad faith" warranted this message in February why can't the same be told to Kautilya3 for his accusation of deceptive POV editing, on my TP? All I am saying is that I want equitable treatment. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Capitals00Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Capitals00Looks like JosephusOfJerusalem is back to his usual modus operandi by filing frivolous report on this board to get rid of his opponents like he has also done before. 10 diffs from last 4 months is all he got? When you are wasting time of majority of editors by going against consensus and engaging in disruption, you just can't expect other editors not to cite WP:CIR and WP:IDHT or react. To reply all those cherrypicked diffs, it is a mere reaction when you see hoards of disruption by editors engaging in violations of WP:OR(diff 8), WP:COPYVIO(diff 5), WP:BRD,(diff 4) WP:NPA/WP:IDHT(diff 1),(diff 2), (diff 3), (diff 6 and diff 7), (diff 9), (diff 10). Citing WP:CIR is not a personal attack, because that page is "an explanatory supplement to the disruptive editing guideline" per community consensus. Much of the diffs here comes from Talk:Siachen conflict where consensus was to include what I supported. Why you can't show diffs where I was going against consensus or I had been problematic and had no consensus for edits? JosephusOfJerusalem has always engaged in personal attacks:-
And rest of the diffs of this report and below one comes from Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/2018 May 10, where JosephusOfJersualem has defended copyright violation by falsely claiming that "I could not find any copyright violations". Now that is clear evidence of WP:CIR and WP:DE, and he also attempted to selectively censor a comment that he didn't liked. Clearly he has competence issues and thinks that it is a personal attack if WP:CIR has been cited to him, despite his defense of copyrights violation and clear WP:IDHT. In a separate incident from February 2018, he was arguing against 4 editors and alleging of them failure of "WP:LISTEN" and engagement in "WP:CANVASSING", ""WP:DISRUPTION". It shows that he resorts to falsely allege others of misconduct only because he is not getting consensus for his POV. He had been also warned by Bishonen for this problematic editing. However there has been no improvement and the attitude of this editor has only worsened. Furthermore, Bishonen had asked him if "there anything you'd like to share about any previous account/s?" given he registered on 18 October 2017 and has been too professed when it comes to WP:GAMING. JosephusOfJerusalem suspiciously removed that message. I would request an indefinite topic ban on JosephusOfJerusalem per evidence above as well as for the following:-
If these editors had been sanctioned earlier, I don't think any of these problems would be arising to this extent. I believe that NadirAli and TripWire are the only candidates that deserves to be topic banned because it has been already proven that previous topic bans on their accounts have not worked. I am 100% hopeful that things will surely improve without having these two editors in this area. The language that I have used had to be a lot better, about which I agree. But so far no evidence of problematic article editing has provided for me and D4iNa4, and we have not engaged in edit warring, IDHT, OR, COPYVIO, or any other forms of WP:DE. MapSGV has not a participated in any of the disputes that you have linked, why you have proposed a ban on him? I am watching SPI that concerns JosephusOfJerusalem though his above filibustering is difficult to follow. I guess a topic ban on him is not really going to hurt. As for SheriffIsInTown and Mar4d, I believe that they would carefully read this complaint and indeed avoid the actions that resulted the situation. Capitals00 (talk) 13:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Raymond3023Ironic to see an offensive editor, editing with a battleground mentality, often assuming bad faith and demonstrating significant competence issues is talking about "civility". These two reports are result of the failure of JosephusOfJerusalem to get his preferred non-consensus version of Princely state protected after trying hard for it. It is fair to say that JOJ is a case of WP:CIR and probably WP:NOTHERE, since he is mostly engaging in ethnic POV battles, similar to "Towns Hill" (a banned sockmaster). JOJ's failure to understand copyrights, STATUSQUO, and misrepresentation other relevant policies while mass canvassing other editors with the hopes that he would receive some support for his frivolous report shows that having him topic banned or blocked indefinitely would be best for us. Raymond3023 (talk) 10:30, 12 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by MBlaze LightningThis is frivolous complaint; there is nothing in the diffs which would even remotely constitute "personal attacks". Also, it is worth mentioning that the majority of the diffs in question are months old—some of them dates back to February, 20 i.e. they are stale. Things get heated up in these subjects, especially when you are dealing with clear WP:OR, WP:COPYVIO, WP:NPA, WP:IDHT, but there is nothing sanctionable. JosephusOfJerusalem comments demonstrates a glaring lack of understanding of the very policies that he citing, not to mention his gross battleground mentality as is evident from his comments here and elsewhere. I also agree with the above comments that JosephusOfJerusalem is desperately trying to get the editors with an opposite POV topic banned so that he could push his POV in peace. And not long ago, JosephusOfJerusalem has filed a similar frivolous report against another established editor. If JosephusOfJerusalem perceives comments like, "You can keep the wikilawyering nonsense with yourself" as "WP:PERSONALATTACK", then he's clearly demonstrating incompetency. He does not even know when to indent and when to outdent his comments, so he should not be astonished when an established editor points him to WP:CIR. What's more striking is that these filings are strongly reminiscent of filings of socks of Faizan/Towns Hill, in particular Sardeeph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who used to file similar spurious reports against me and Kautilya3 in order to get them blocked by citing similar trivial or non-violations. Sardeeph was eventually blocked by Boing! said Zebedee and Black Kite for WP:NOTHERE after a long ANI thread that he had himself started and cited same type of evidence that JosephusOfJerusalem has cited here as well as attempted to canvass dozens of editors just like JosephusOfJerusalem is doing here. Similarities between Sardeeph and JosephusOfJerusalem are just more than that. There is a clear case of WP:DUCK.
Sardeeph was indeffed on 20 October 2017. JosephusOfJerusalem registered on 18 October but made his first article space edit on 31 October. I see no doubt that JosephusOfJerusalem is a sock of Sardeeph and he should be blocked for his block evasion. MBlaze Lightning 13:54, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mar4dSupport indefinite block on Capitals00; According to JoJ's editing history, he is a neutral user and someone who doesn't have a personal, vested history in this disruption-ridden topic area. Unfortunately I find his observations spot on, having seen Capitals00's edit warring, incessant personal attacks, WP:NOTTHEM excuses and disruptive WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour across all pages. The above WP:WALLOFTEXT is the latest example. This unmanageable approach and attitude is justified and tolerated repeatedly without consequence, and the long-term harm it is doing to the project is completely unaccounted for. This user is responsible for creating a deeply toxic editing environment, and has no one to single-handedly blame but himself. Unlike JoJ, the vast majority of Capitals00's recent talk page interactions involve personal attacks and confrontational vitriol directed at others, not to mention continuous condescending harassment, and there's stack-loads of evidence: , . , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . This adds on to the myriad of edit wars, escalating new content disputes, and forcing in relentless WP:POV. It is no wonder then that the entire topic area is in a pitiable condition, when these problems are just the tip of the iceberg. I will take strong exception to MBL and Raymond3023, both of whom are involved users (their own highly problematic conduct issues require a chapter), who defended this user's disruption first on an SPI case (where he himself was not available for defense), and then in the most frivolous example of WP:TAGTEAM on ANI. When multiple people are observing the same, the question is, how long? This needs to end as it has become a net negative for Misplaced Pages, and it's time the curtains are pulled. For a user who has consistently shown no signs of improvement or reform, an indefinite block is in order. Mar4d (talk) 14:30, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by D4iNa4Come on Mar4d. Regardless of your long term disruption, you had to be blocked indefinitely a few hours ago for your exceptional disruption on 2016 Indian Line of Control strike. That you edit warred to get that article redirected then you started a senseless AFD and after already realizing that you will fail to get the article deleted, you tried to get it deleted under frivolous A10, and after that your senseless AfD was closed as WP:SNOW "speedy keep" under a few hours. That's what sanctionable conduct is, not the diffs showing Capitals providing warnings/guidance to users that you have misrepresented just like you misrepresented. Don't talk about "improvements" when you fail to get consensus on just every single article that you disrupt, such as 2016 Indian Line of Control strike, Siachen conflict, Kashmir conflict, India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present) and lots more. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Vanamonde93, you have misrepresented diffs in your comment. The four diffs provided by Raymond3023 are showing that how JosephusOfJerusalem was WP:GAMING the system to get his version protected by edit warring and misrepresenting WP:STATUSQUO. I should also mention that NadirAli made 3 reverts in less than one hour. On 14:44 yesterday, the comment I had made here by including the diff for "speedy close" is much before the diff for "swiftly reversed" you are providing, because the revert of the the speedy closure happened on 16:21, nearly two hours after my comment on here. You can ask any uninvolved admin if a block is warranted for restoring the copyright violation for which the user has already received a warning, the answer you will get would be yes. Bigger question is that why it happened at first place, had NadirAli never violated copyrights or just heeded the warning he had already received? Given he has been blocked enough times for copyrights before, why really made him deliberately ignore copyright violation? I will be adding more evidence here of actual misconduct but right now I am more inclined to wait for the outcome of the SPI: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sardeeph. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SheriffIsInTown
Voluntary abstention proposal
Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by power~enwikiMany of the editors involved here "on both sides" of the India-Pakistan conflict are out of control. I'd recommend the AE admins consider sanctions against most (if not all) of the involved parties here. I note recent ANI threads from May 5 (on sock-puppetry) and April 14 (on Hookah) as involving many of these editors and being fairly disasterous. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Razer2115WP:AE is not supposed to be used by tireless POV-pushers to try to eliminate editors who clearly have much better grasp of WP:NPOV, WP:BRD, WP:CON, WP:COPYVIO and other relevant policies. Report seems to have been filed by a probable sock per recently opened Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sardeeph and is nonetheless frivolous. Razer(talk) 18:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde93I cannot take admin action in this case, but I would seriously suggest a "plague on both your houses" approach here. I've looked through the diffs, and there is little to choose between the behavior of the various protagonists, with the exception of Kautilya3. There's plenty of impolite language, accusations of bad faith sans evidence, filing of pointy reports at various noticeboards, a tendency to stonewall to protect favored sources/content, and generally far too much evidence of battleground behavior. I'd recommend a topic ban from the Indo-Pakistan conflict for at least the four principals here. Vanamonde (talk) 04:42, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by WBG
Statement by JustlettersandnumbersIt was I who moved an extended and argumentatious discussion from Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/2018 May 10 to Talk:History of Balochistan, as it was not advancing the process of establishing whether there's been a copyright violation or not. There seems to have a great deal too much combative behaviour by a number of editors here, including the OP. It's apparently just the sort of thing the discretionary sanctions are intended to prevent; Vanamonde's suggestion seems appropriate in the circumstances. Capitals00, could you please tell me, here on this page, in clear and simple terms: does your copyvio report concern only material copied as quotations in the references? NB: it anyway has brought to light another apparent copyvio, which I'll deal with in due course. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:39, 13 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Kautilya3I have been quiet because I had been busy and this discussion has been too chaotic for me to make sense of. Now that Vanamonde93 has helped to clarify it, here are my two cents. As for the COPYVIO issue at History of Balochistan, I said in my edit summary "please trim the quotes". NadirAli came back several hours later saying "Trimmed quotes". Till now everything seems normal. However, it wasn't immediately clear what NadirAli had done, because the byte count went up rather than down. Perhaps that is why MBlaze Lightning reverted it again. The next step would have been for MBlaze and NadirAli to discuss it somewhere. I don't know why Capitals00 and JosephusOfJerusalem got involved in this affair. But they did, and things went downhill soon after. I would recommend a short block for both of them to get their act together, and give an opportunity for the involved editors to discuss things with each other. Why I am recommending it for both of them? Because Josephus's hands are not clean. One of the very first edits he did in his career was this whole-article blanking to help out his friend KA$HMIR, but KA$HMIR got caught with his pants down. We spared Josephus then. I don't see why we should keep on sparing him. He continues to play all kinds of games to help out his friends. Getting rid of this gangsterism is the first step to bringing some sanity to the India–Pakistan pages. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by IvanvectorI'm posting up here because while I'm not really capital-I Involved here, I have frequently interacted with this dispute via SPI, where reports just dealing with this small but noisy group of editors have accounted for numerous cases just this year, many (but admittedly not all) of them obviously retaliatory, and many just plainly dredging up old grudges. Unfamiliar observers should be able to see from the links provided in this thread that this behaviour is widespread: any time there is any sort of content dispute it escalates rapidly to the administrative noticeboards, where we entertain a back-and-forth name-calling while the dispute moves toward resolution. The only real reason that many of these editors are still allowed to edit is that nobody who isn't already involved really wants to take sides in this ongoing battleground affair. As admins, our responsibility is to prevent disruption, not to punish, and so like many of the other neutral observers here it's my observation that the way forward from here is an admittedly unusual mass topic ban. I endorse GoldenRing's proposal, although I have thoughts about some users who are and are not named in their list and will have to come back to this in a bit because I have a real-life thing to do. For completeness and simplicity I recommend any topic ban issued here should cover the same topic scope as WP:ARBIPA. Ivanvector (/Edits) 13:16, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SitushThis diffs are already plentiful above. At least some of the people involved in this mess should be indef topic banned at the widest scope of ARBIPA because the issues run deeper than just Indo-Pakistani conflicts. For example, Capitals00 seems to have problems with anything to do with Hindu/Muslim/India/Pakistan issues and has done for years, as indicated by the current content of their talk page. D4Ina4 has had similar issues, and whenever I see both JosephusOfJerusalem and Raymond3023 involved in something, I tend to walk away sharpish (JoJ, by the way, is very obviously not as recent a contributor to the project as their account creation date suggests). These people are so het-up and embroiled in personal as well as topic-related differences that I don't hold out much hope of a limited t-ban actually reducing the noise overall. I'm less familiar with the others, aside from Kautilya3 and Mar4d, but am increasingly fed up of seeing their names among the same small group of antagonistic regulars at the various dispute venues. Kautilya3 is usually a voice of reason; Mar4d tends to veer between both extremes, depending on the subject matter - their efforts to calm down PAKHIGHWAY (talk · contribs) a few months ago, for example, were commendable, if doomed, but their efforts in this particular topic area (the Indo-Pak conflicts) are clearly rather wayward. - Sitush (talk) 13:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by GalobtterNoting that JosephusofJerusalem tried withdrawing the the two AEs he filed by by removing them. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:17, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by SdmaratheEvidently a topic ban on Vanamonde93 should be also in order. Knowing that Vanamonde93 have been unnecessarily casting WP:ASPERSIONS and clearly trying to remove every single challenger with whom they are in dispute. @GoldenRing: If admins really consider conduct of more than a couple of editors to be problematic then Vanamonde93's conduct has been very problematic as well:
I have compared Vanamonde93's own battle ground mentality with a number of users reported here and Vanamonde93 clearly beats all of them except the OP as per these incidents I have linked in my diffs, no older than 6 days. Sdmarathe (talk) 16:11, 14 May 2018 (UTC) I can not help but laugh off at the suggestions indicating my "vendetta" against User:Vanamonde93 :) I have been reasonable enough to thank Vanamonde93 when they were right and criticize when I believed they were wrong. On the contrary there were several reverts that they have done that were just out of spite - who knows why. Anyone suggesting inappropriate behavior on my part should read edits 2 years back. And those that are suggesting I be included in the topic ban - need show a single edit warring incident on this topic by me. Anyone?? Sdmarathe (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by JbhunleyAt least in the case of D4iNa4, Capitals00 and Raymond3023 their pack behavior goes beyond IPA, either that or they are so aggressive as to extend their nationalism into Hookah. This ANI thread is one of the more vicious I have been involved in or even seen — particularly on the part of D4iNa4. I am not going to pull out diffs but the thread itself is worth a read. The last comment by Bbb23 ("@D4iNa4: You are out of control. Unless you stop interpolating your comments everywhere and moving other user's comments around, as well as repeated personal attacks on any editor who disagrees with you, you risk being blocked. I suggest you stay away from this thread completely.") is descriptive of the behavior there. I would suggest at a minimum any topic ban be on IPA broadly construed (because Hoohah?!) but the sheer hostility, bad faith and disruption described here at AE tells me indefs for most are not far away. Jbh 17:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by NadirAliI logged in today with the intent of editing the article on Margot Kidder upon learning of her tragic passing. I wish to emphasize that I backed away from the articles after the same editors mentioned in this thread began edit warring. I have not broken any 3RRs and removed myself from these topics, seeing there was no near end in sight and that as usual, MBL and some other editors were not being reasonable. I even modified my edits on the Balochistan, but they did not accept them. This problem extends well over decade. It's not bad enough that some editors don't allow anyone to edit ARBIPA topics that contradicts their POV, but they also continue to lay siege on ARBIPA topics and then take any opposing editor to ANI where they lynch that user. This problem spans well over a decade and is responsible for most of the edit wars. Administrators and the community have continued to ignore this problem. But as I stated, I pulled out of the articles seeing this could end up very badly for not just me, but Mar4d as well. They have already filed an SPI against JOJ likely in retaliation for the SPI filed against Capitals00, like the one MBL filed against me in November. I have no intention of editing the article anytime soon, so I think the proposal of topic bans are a bit excessive, considering that I have created and contributed to pages in this area without edit warring.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC) RE:Kautilya3To editor GoldenRing:, To editor Sandstein:, The problem is if Kautilaya3 is allowed to continue editing this topic area while others are blocked, it will give unfair advantage to him given that many of his edits are objectionable. I am not trying to assume bad faith in this user as he and I have had agreements before in this topic area, but he often makes edits that are blatant POV. This will only leave pages open to him changing them to his POV without those who disagree unable to express their objection; resulting in a loss of WP:NPOV. Another issue is that Kautilya3 is under ethnicity claims restrictions
He is also under a casting aspersions restriction. These comments by him about doubting JoJ's Jewish identity are violation of that Sock or no sock, for that is irrelevant, someone who is under ethnicity claims restriction and aspersions restriction shouldn't be bringing up another user's claimed ethnic identity from within 1000 miles. He was banned from making any attempt to bring up another user's purported ethnicity. This is also actionable. I'm also unsure if ivanvector is aware of this and could re-evaluate on the proposals.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 21:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC) If one goes through the archives they will find that Kautilya3 has already been cut a lot of slack by our sysops. He has convinced sysops before that his abuse of multiple accounts was "accidental" and he has even convinced them that his edit warring was not a 1RR violation because he "misunderstood" policy. I believe the administrators have already been too lenient in dealing with his wrongdoings. This is just stretching good faith over the limit. I request them to apply the same criterion on Kautilya3 which they apply to everyone else. There should be a single set of rules, not separate rules for one and another set for everyone else if Misplaced Pages is to maintain its stature.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC) To editor Seraphimblade: How can this be called "trying to keep things reasonable"?--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC) Result concerning Capitals00
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D4iNa4
This is being considered for action in the context of the request concerning Capitals00 above. Procedural closure. Sandstein 15:12, 14 May 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning D4iNa4
This user has pretty much the same incivility issues as Capitals00 above. Which is why I have decided to report both together since the problems in both cases are identical. They contribute to boiling our editing environment with hatred and vitriol. And there is just no sign that this is not going to continue. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 07:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC) Response to Capitals00 by JosephusOfJerusalem
Discussion concerning D4iNa4Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by D4iNa4Statement by Capitals00Just like the above one, this is a frivolous complaint filed only because JosephusOfJerusalem is failing to get consensus for his POV. Neither report discuss any problematic editing, but only misrepresents general criticism as "personal attack".
Given this is a revenge complaint filed by JosephusOfJerusalem only to get rid of the far more experienced and competent editor who happens to be his opponent. I would recommend admins to read the evidence I have provided above and simply solve the problem by sanctioning JosephusOfJerusalem for his long term disruption. Capitals00 (talk) 09:15, 12 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by MBlaze LightningSee Special:Diff/840836278. MBlaze Lightning 13:58, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by WBGSee my comments in the thread, just above.~ Winged Blades 10:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by IvanvectorThis is effectively a duplicate of the Capitals00 report above, and should be speedy closed (or whatever that looks like here) in deference to that thread. Ivanvector (/Edits) 15:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC) Result concerning D4iNa4
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E-960
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning E-960
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- E-960 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (+original author as in ARBPIA)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 0408 11 may + 0420 11 may revert1
- 1717 11 may + 1725 11 may + 1730 11 may revert2. 1rr on revert1
- 1814 11 may revert3 (+ original author clause) 1rr on revert1,2.
- 0702 12 may revert4. This one of an ip that does not count to 1rr, but does show pattern and is gaming of 3rr - 4th revert in 27 hours
- 1354 12 may + 1249 12 may revert5, again of ip. This one is a 3rr vio in relation to revert2,3,4.
- 1701 12 may. revert6. 1rr in relation to revert2,3. 3rr - 5 reverts in 24 hr window in relation to reverts2,3,4,5.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 228 8 May
will voluntarily refrain from editing the article for 72 hours. If disruptive tagging is an issue, another request should be made, with evidence that will allow admins unfamiliar with the sources to understand the issue
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
notified. Also previosuly discussed here on 7 May 2018.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I chose to focus on the narrow aspect of 1rr/3rr given this is easy to demonstrate and previous discussion here. User returned to article 1.5 hours after the 72 hours were up and proceeded to revert multiple times.
- RE E-960's comments below:
- I did not add any tags or comments removing text (in relation to the 6 reverts reported) - so it is unclear to me I've been gaming the system here. I will note that E-960's has been adding dubiously sourced information (based on the Facebook posts of a Polish ambassador) - however that is a content issue (there is a RfC presently running on the article talk-page regarding the use of the ambassador's observations on research methodology).
- It seems that E-960 in addressing the diff list was referring, in some comments, to the previous edit - not to their own.
- 1717 11 may + 1725 11 may + 1730 11 may - reported as one-consecutive edit (FR did make an edit and self-revert it in the middle - in 1726-7- however this was ignored for reporting purposes - lumping 1730 with the consecutive edits of 1717 and 1725).
- Revision as of 18:14, 11 May 2018 - E-960 reverted changes by Volunteer Marek - consecutive diffs in 1757-1809 - restoring the changed image caption and quote that VM removed - . E-960 added this information in 1717-1730 - so very shortly before VM's removal of the new information. I would not have filed AE over a single quote and image caption - but it is a clear revert.
- Revision as of 13:54, 12 May 2018 - Icewhiz did not place the tag. The tag was placed by 198.84.253.202 at Revision as of 12:47, 12 May 2018 - E-960 should take care in attributing actions to users. I will note that I agree with 198.84.253.202 - the article does indeed overemphasize Polish views, while ignoring wider Holocaust and World War II history (for instance, it would seem that Jewish views (which have addressed this topic at length, which are long standing, are almost lacking all together in terms of opinions/assessment of the Polish role in the Holocaust - there is also an overemphasis in the use of Polish sources - which is a problem given that NOENG has us preferring English when available at the same quality and of BALASP as the sources selected do not reflect the wider world-wide scholarly consensus) - however, I did not place the tag.
- Revision as of 12:49, 12 May 2018 - E-960 should retract his accusations of vandalism against the 198.84.253.202. This text is not agreed upon. While most editors agree, on the talk-page, that Gazeta Wyborcza is a WP:RS - many editors have failed to see the relevance of a statement which repeats the previous statement and says nothing new. If at all, WP:ONUS is on E-960 to include not on 198.84.253.202 to exclude.
- E-960 reverted, in the 6 reverts, at least 4 different users - François Robere, Icewhiz, 198.84.253.202, and Volunteer Marek. Some of his edits may be justifiable in and of themselves. And perhaps I was nit-picky in counting reverts in one case - however the aggregate of 6 reverts in 37 hours on a 1rr article is not how a 1RR article should be edited.Icewhiz (talk) 13:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- notified
Discussion concerning E-960
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by E-960
This report filed by Icewhiz is nothing short of a dishonest MANIPULATION, and I would request that sanctions are placed on Icewhiz for filing a false report against another editor. If you notice (and go through the actual sequence of the edits ) you will see that these are reverts of DISRUPTIVE edits done by Icewhiz, François Robere and IP 198.84.253.202 including placing of more shame TAGS into the article and removing text using the <!-- Hidden text -->
code.
Exampels:
- Revision as of 17:17, 11 May 2018 - reverted edit by François Robere who placed yet another shame TAG into the article
- Revision as of 17:21, 11 May 2018 - added a quotation earlier into the reference source citation and for clean up removed Polish word in parenthesis, how is that a violation of any kind
- Revision as of 17:27, 11 May 2018 - reverted my own edit, due to all the disruptive changes made by François Robere who himself reverted his own edits earlier, how is that a violation of any kind
- Revision as of 18:14, 11 May 2018 - restored the quotation that was added in the reference citation, since François Robere was making more changes to article and Volunteer Marek was reverting all the disruptive changes, and accidentally removed an unrelated edit I made
- Revision as of 13:54, 12 May 2018, 12 May 2018 - reverted another shame TAG placed by Icewhiz in the article
- Revision as of 12:49, 12 May 2018 - reverted a vandalism edit by IP 198.84.253.202 who place the
<!-- Hidden text -->
code to hid the text that was agree on in on the Talk Page , pls notice the Edit Summary caption made by another editor (→The Holocaust: Per talk), and this is where earlier IP 198.84.253.202 tried to remove the text outright from the article ... after being revered he decided to use the<!-- Hidden text -->
code to blank the text.
This type of behavior by Icewhiz is nothing short of trying to game the 1RR rule, and create enough disruptions in order to level a false change against an editor who is simply reverting VANDALISM, because when you <!-- Hidden text -->
or keep placing random shame TAGS you are causing major disruptions to the article. I think that users GizzyCatBella, Volunteer Marek, Nihil novi and MyMoloboaccount can all confirm what is happening because they all at some point were forced to revert all the TAGS and disruptive editing on the page. --E-960 (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- NeilN, to respond to your follow up questions. In reference to the edit which included this tag
{{verify|reason="Collaborators" or "blackmailers"?}}
, I went ahead and simply resolved the issue which the TAG highlighted, by adding the following text "and blackmailers (szmalcownik)" after confirming that the image related to both 'collaborators' and 'blackmailers'. So, this was not a blank revert, but a resolution of the question which the TAG asked. Though, I removed the TAG first (which is the edit you are following up on), and in the following edit included the correcting text , because if you notice below, this was a really BIG TAG that was messing up the small IMAGE THUMBNAIL where it was placed inside of, yes actually inside the image frame (bit annoying when I first saw it, but went ahed to resolve the issue not just blank the TAG). And to my surprise actually received a public Thank You from François Robere for resolving this items. (I'll admit there was a bit of clumsy editing on this one, but there was never an intent to just revert, but to resolve the question which the TAG addressed).
- NeilN, to respond to your follow up questions. In reference to the edit which included this tag
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Find sources: "Enforcement" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (Learn how and when to remove this message) |
- Regarding the second item, , this was a first time reverted (not a revert after a revert), of text about 'anti-Jewish sentiment related to the Catholic Church and Communism', which though related to the article went off on a tangent outside of the scope of collaboration, thus I recommend that this should be discussed first. However, again I'd like to note that this text was only removed one time (not a revert of a revert). Also, there was a second statement which discussed 'Polish wartime casualties' which François Robere removed from the introduction paragraph, which again simply did not relate to collaboration. But, this time Volunteer Marek reverted (accidentally running over the two TAG items that I resolved successfully), so thus I did not again try to revert this particular text, but in the Edit Summary left a note that this text does not really belong in this article . --E-960 (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by GizzyCatBella
I have no time to measure this but I would like to make an honest plea to the evaluating administrator. Please (please) review this especially thoroughly since Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of filing dubious claims.. Also please consider the frequency Icewhiz arrives here denouncing his opponents of violations - 3 times in the last five days alone. Thank you. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by François Robere
I don't think E-960 had any ill intent in any of these edits, but I very much dislike their characterization of others' edits as dishonest or intentionally damaging, and I similarly dislike GizzyCatBella's tendency of doing so. Icewhiz is well within his rights in filing this request, and I suggest any editor who thinks of initiating yet another uninvited smear campaign examine their own behavior instead. François Robere (talk) 09:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Result concerning E-960
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @NeilN: These are your page restrictions, could you evaluate this report? Sandstein 08:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I will look at this some time today. --NeilN 13:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- I've semied the article under DS for a month. E-960, I am concerned about two reverts. , This seems like a violation of WP:1RR. Please comment. Volunteer Marek can you please kindly confirm or not if E-960 was correcting some accidental editing here. --NeilN 05:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Thewolfchild
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Thewolfchild
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- K.e.coffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:23, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Thewolfchild (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Battleground_conduct
- AE: Thewolfchild is warned
The March 2018 AE discussion (AE:Thewolfchild) detailed a pattern of battleground behaviour, directed at me (largely) & other contributors. It closed with a warning to TWC to not personalise disputes; avoid 'clerking' / impeding consensus; canvassing, & more. However, such behaviour has continued:
- 24 April, Creating drama / aspersions: "This constant bickering..." & "that huge train-wreck of an RfC..." (TWC's inability to let go of the RfC was discussed at the prior AE). TWC edit warred to prevent collapsing off-topic material: & . Added for clarity: I did not collapse TWC's comments nor reverted him; that was done by another contributor: & .
- 14 May 2018, Hounding / issuing threats: suggesting that all firearms articles that I edited "(33 and counting!)" should be listed at WP:GUNS to discuss "what, if any, further actions or sanctions are required" & "This should be examined, this should all be examined, and thoroughly." After pushback, TWC seems to have backtracked a bit: "the main goal here is to review the edits, not the editor" . This still leaves open the door that, perhaps, a secondary goal is to "review" (i.e. lightly harass) the editor.
- 8 April 2018 & same, Clerking discussions / redacting comments. I reverted TWC once ; the other revert was by the OP. This resulted in a discussion on my TP (User talk:K.e.coffman/Archive/2018/April#April 2018), with belittling: "like some probational-acting-deputy-admin-in-training", etc.
- 7 May 2018 More clerking, after an admin specifically told TWC "Don't ask for closes" .
- 18:34, 5 May 2018, Personalisation of disputes: "your friend K.e. basically told me...". In response to the "friend" reference (a second time), I posted on TWC's TP: 19:11, 5 May 2018. (Prior reference to "friends": 15 April 2018). TWC then requested that I "please keep it off talk page": 22:51, 5 May.
- Previous sanctions
- Given a warning (AE:Thewolfchild) on 25 March 2018 by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Block log
- DS awareness
- Alerted about relevant DS on 0:55, 22 February 2018.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I believe that these diffs display battleground behaviour and targeting of my contributions. They also show no learning curve in terms of Wiki norms; e.g., this (unrelated) ANI about TWC closed w/o sanctions, but provided this illuminating diff by TWC: 11 April. Since TWC doesn't want me on his TP and reacts strongly even to mild cricism (e.g.: I'm genuinely shocked, shocked!...), I'm bringing this report here.
- @Pudeo: Re
...far from actual personal attacks
, I did not use the words “personal attacks” in my statement; please read it more carefully before commenting. On your other point, I indeed participated in the H&K TP, where I provided a detailed rationale & review of sources: Sample material in question, which was all cited to the manufacturer's web site.
- @PackMecEng: Re
...you left that comment on their talk page right after they asked you not to post there anymore
, I'm afraid that you got the timeline wrong. I added times to the diffs for clarity: TWC's request to "keep off" his TP comes last. Separately, I see that you participated in the 1st AE, where you accused others of "bludgeoning, threats, and badgering" & "WP:RIGHTGREATWRONG" , yet you don't see the same in TWC's behaviour.
- General comment: Since my first interaction w/ TWC, which I can only describe as a series of emotionally unhinged outbursts (, (bottom of page) & ), TWC seems to have had a preoccupation with my editing. Despite having stated several times that he's not a member of WP:GUNS, TWC's suddenly so concerned for firearms articles that he's willing to recruit WP:GUNS editors to "thoroughly" examine my contributions?
- Specific to the H&K aticle, I had suggested the participants raise the issue at either WP:NPOVN or WP:NOT: Applicable policies. This was ignored by TWC in favour of apparently conspiratorial thinking ("To what end?") and the suggestion that "as many editors as possible be made aware of this activity" . The latter may also violate the spirit of the warning given to TWC against canvassing by "using project pages". In any case, project TPs are not designed for involved editors to discuss possible "sanctions" against an editor who they may disagree with; that looked to me like a threat.
- Lastly, the redactions by TWC are problematic because he was specifically warned about 'clerking' discussions, with a separate warning on his TP: "just stop acting like a clerk". This comment does not warrant placing an RPA template. That’s why I was puzzled as to why TWC insisted on redacting it, to the point of edit warring and badgering me on my Talk page. This suggests ownership to me, same as was brought up in the first AE discussion. Or as NeilN puts it: "...what was seen as disruptive was you having to get your two cents in everywhere" . In summary, some admins were calling for a topic ban at the 1st AE, so a warning was a fair outcome. The conditions were not that hard to follow, but here we are. --K.e.coffman (talk) 15:49, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Springee:
...a provocation and uncivil. K.e.c. should not have restored the collapse...
, this implies that I was uncivil and / or was provoking TWC. That's not the case as I did not collapse TWC's comments nor reverted him in this case; that was done by another contributor: & . I added this to the original statement for clarity.
- @Springee:
- General comment: Re my edits allegedly being about
essentially demonizing firearms in general
, we can't go about editing these articles as if firearms were people too; BLP policies do not apply to them. Regarding TWC's list, what it shows is that our firearms articles suffer from a significant amount of unsourced / self-sourced promotional material and trivia, or what TWC callscontent of neutral, encyclopedic value
. I liked this bit of self-cited "origins story", with distinct settler-colonialist undertones:- In 1919, Chief Lame Deer from a Cheyenne tribe approached Arthur Savage to purchase lever-action rifles for the Indian reservation. The two men struck a deal — the tribe would get discounted rifles and Savage would get the tribe's support and endorsement. It was at this time in the company's history, that Arthur Savage added the Indian head logo — a direct gift from the Chief — to the company name.
- General comment: Re my edits allegedly being about
References
- "SavageArms.com". About Savage.
- In Savage Arms. I'm always happy to discuss my edits, but since TWC's idea of me is that I'm set on "demonising" firearms, I'm not sure he's the right person for the task. In short, TWC has not been a positive presence in these articles. His participation has mostly amounted to disruption of talk pages & bullying of other participants. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Notification
Discussion concerning Thewolfchild
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Thewolfchild
Well, let's start by calling this what it really is... a pre-emptive strike. As K.e noted in point #2, on the H&K416 talk page, I had suggested that some of the edits he has made to firearm-related articles be reviewed at WT:GUNS. He clearly is not happy about the prospect of that occurring. But the facts are this: in the 6 months prior to Feb 14, K.e. didn't edit a single firearm-related article. Then the Stoneman shooting occurred, he was heavily involved in the editing of that article from the beginning, along with the mass-shootings in the U.S. article, and since then (the past 3 months, Feb 14 - May 14), he has gone on a spree, removing and altering content to numerous (approx 50, perhaps more) firearm-related articles on a massive scale (see here, this is just major edits and does not include numerous minor edits). His editing has the single-minded objective of removing content of neutral, encyclopedic value, while at the same time pushing for the addition of "criminal use", "use in mass-shootings", and other controversial material, essentially demonizing firearms in general. Just because he adds (the almost standard now) edit summary; "remove per wp:catalog, will save on talk page" doesn't really mean anything. Multiple editors have objected to these edits (see the Glock talk page) but K.e. either just stands his ground or doesn't engage. I don't feel a single editor should be changing the entire encyclopaedic presentation of firearms on WP, while at the same time, completely dismissing the Firearms Project, it's scope and it's members. Hence the reason that I suggested the review, other editors agreed... and now we have this "AE complaint".
As for the rest of K.e.'s report, (other than the minutiae he went digging for from weeks ago), the gist of it is some of my talk page posts are sarcastic. Well, let's gauge that against the condescending arrogance of his comments, the ones that aren't appallingly hypocritical or just outright bullshit. Look no further than his comments here; "badgering", "edit-warring", "threats", "hounding", "harrassment", "emotionally unhinged", "conspiratorial thinking", "canvassing", "ownership", "clerking" (ad nauseum), etc., etc., etc. At what point does an admin see that this clearly crosses the line from "report" to "blatant, personal attacks"...? Not to mention that this is basically abuse of a project function. Like K.e's, my contribs speak for themselves. I've made enough edits to firearm-related articles (though few and usually minor) over the years to show that I don't have a "sudden interest" in this subject. However, I haven't made any significant content edits to firearm-related articles since the Stoneman shooting (save for reverts, even to changes I agree with but were done improperly), instead my edits have been mostly confined to talk pages. Since that event, there has been this persistent, topic-wide debate between two entrenched factions of editors and IP users (call them what you will, "pro-gun", "anti-gun", whatever...), constantly debating and changing content, most of which leads to article disruption (how many pages have been protected now?) and/or page-fill/time-sinks on talk pages. Most of my posts have called out against this; look no further than K.e.'s point #1 for an example of this. Yes, I have a recent AE warning, and while I clearly stated that I disagreed with both the way that report was handled and some of Neil's warning afterward, I don't feel that I've violated that warning. Tagging one comment as RPA (which was not an issue until K.e. made it one days later), posting one simple close request or un-collapsing my own comment, hardly qualifies as "clerking", nor do I see it as a violation of the warning I rec'd (2 months ago now) or the AE sanctions in general. In other words, I think this is a big waste of time. How many reports has K.e. filed here now anyway? He can't just come running here every time he doesn't like what someone posts on a sanctioned talk page. Perhaps a boomerang is in order and if I really cared about all this, mayne I push for that, but really... enough of this nonsense already. - WOLFchild 23:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Pudeo
Petty complaints about word choices that are far from actual personal attacks. K.e.coffman, you should go back to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Heckler & Koch_HK416#Recent_edit because five people disagreed with your removal of the "intricate detail". I really don't think just citing WP:INDISCRIMINATE gives you the mandate for this deletionist streak on gun articles because the policy's just against "unexplained statistics". People agreed WP:PROMO material should be removed, but self-published sources are allowed for non-controversial claims (WP:SPS). And you also removed important information such as the weight of the weapon from the infobox. If you really think that's "intricate detail" you should start a RfC to remove it from Template:Infobox weapon, not do it article by article.
Also anyone is allowed to remove personal attacks per WP:RPA, but yeah, it tends to lead to a controversy if you do that because PAs can be ambiguous. --Pudeo (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Toddst1
I'm not at all a fan of wolfie, in fact I think in general he's a great example of how an editor should not behave. However, in reviewing this RFAR/E that I stumbled upon, I can't find anything that would be actionable as a violation of his sanction. Toddst1 (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think TWC's response here speaks for itself and negates what I wrote above. Toddst1 (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Dlthewave
I would encourage folks to consider the context of point #1. Sure, we often see poor word choices during spirited discussions, but this is something different. TWC chose to start a new section in the midst of an ongoing discussion to complain about the fact that the discussion was taking place as well as the outcome of the RfC and the amount of "disruption" in this subject area. I tried to collapse the unproductive side conversation which ensued but TWC insisted on keeping it open. TWC was also among a group of editors who opposed efforts to rewrite the WP:GUNS style guide to comply with the outcome of an RfC. Their contributions to this discussion amount to nothing more than whining about the RfC and more allusions to disruption, with no real effort to move forward. I'll leave it to TWC to explain which instances of "disruption" they are referring to. This incivility has a chilling effect on the consensus building process and may well be discouraging editors from participating in gun politics-related discussions, an area which is in desperate need of additional neutral voices. –dlthewave ☎ 02:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by PackMecEng
This is getting a little silly.
- 1 - I was part of that RFC and it basically went the way I voted, but it certainly was a heated train wreck. I still feel back for Fish and karate on that mess of a RFC coming with the right close, but one no one would appreciate.
- 2 - Seeing as they have not seemed to follow K.e.coffman to any other articles hounding is a bit of a stretch. But the unilateral large scrubbing of over 33 articles did create issues and disruptions on several of those articles that everyone is still trying to workout.
- 3 - Has been covered above by Pudeo, but not sure why you took it upon yourself to insert yourself in that situation two days after it was done. Second revert should of just been left alone and done by someone else in my opinion. Finally everything in this part is over a month old at this point.
- 4 - It appears they were not part of the discussion there and reading it over two people in the discussion asked it to be closed. Posting a neutral request on the proper board does not seem like a violation of NeilN's request from the looks of it.
- 5 - Seems minor, though your response was not exactly helpful.
Especially when you left that comment on their talk page right after they asked you not to post there anymore.
The "shocked!" did not come off as serious in the context of the discussion. At this point seems like you two could use a break from one another. PackMecEng (talk) 03:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @K.e.coffman You are right on the time stamp, I was mistaken sorry about that. In regards to my previous comments at AE you posted, kind of an ad hominem attack there but different situation in response to a more disruptive editor posting about me specifically. Not relevant or equal. PackMecEng (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
@Geogene: you seem to have it a little backwards here. Several people that work on that project have already stated above that the disruption is K.e.coffman gutting parts of several gun related articles in a aparently POV manner and has issues collaborating with people of different views leading to WP:PUSH type of situations. As for intimidating the invader, which is an odd thing to say since it is K.e. that has repeatedly brought people here they disagree with. PackMecEng (talk) 13:22, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
@Bishonen: Habbit would be the correct term here, in reference to bring in people they disagree with. A search through the archives shows that pretty well. Even being dragger here two previous times with no sanctions shows the hounding KEC is doing here with a chilling effect on other contributors. As to beyond the pale and disbelief blinking, those are good ones by the way, from what I can tell it was never posted at GUNS unless I am not seeing it. Though I will admit GUNS would of been a better place to fix all the issues caused by KEC than one of the disrupted articles talk pages. PackMecEng (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
I've been reluctant to post here. Like Dlthewave and PackMecEng I've been active on some of the articles in question and typically I'm on the same side of the debate as TWC and PackMecEng (opposite K.e.coffman and Dlthewave). TWC is certainly not dry in their presentation. If K.e.coffman has any flaws they aren't terse comments directed at others. K.e.coffman is very calm even in disagreement but can also be politely pushy. Both editors are trying to make a better encyclopedia. That said, I don't see merit to this ARE.
First point was disparaging an RfC. OK, well that RfC was a train wreck. See PackMecEng's comments above.
The scrubbing of gun articles was something I've also noticed as well. I felt K.e.c was often too aggressive but in general I haven't wanted to get involved. I think they were doing it in good faith but too dogmatically and without thinking about what readers might find of value. Given the range of articles impacted, WP:Firearms (WP:guns) is the most obvious place to start a discussion regarding what sort of information is going to be of interest to readers etc. I reviewed the H&K HK416 cuts, Talk:Heckler & Koch_HK416#Recent_edit, and found that many were good (and credit to K.e.c for always leaving talk page comments noting the changes) but others were questionable. I argued that perhaps 1/4 of the material either shouldn't have been removed or could have been easily fixed (remove promotional language, keep the factual statements). If that was true across the other articles then yes, the content should be reviewed. In a reply above K.e.c noted that TWC isn't a WP:Firearms project member. Why would that matter? I'm not either but that didn't stop K.e.c from reproachfully suggesting my edits/comments in the area were unwelcome advocacy (twice if I recall).
The collapsing of "off topic discussions", like the removal of personal attacks, is a dangerous game. I don't blame TWC for getting annoyed with some of that behavior. When editors who are participants on the talk page and on opposing sides of a contentious issue collapse one another's posts it certainly will come across as provocative. Dlthewave collapsed TWC's comments (from the original complaint ]) and TWC likely, and not unreasonably, didn't appreciate it ]. It would be different if an uninvolved admin had collapsed the comments.
The worst thing I see in this whole list was the redacting of what TWC felt was a personal attack. I think that was a borderline case and it would have been better to let it go or ask an uninvolved editor to help. This seems like a lot to do about not much. Springee (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I have to agree with PackMecEng's comment here ] which disagrees with Geogene's assessment. NeilN, I would request that involved editors should seek consensus before collapsing comments. K.e.c's complaint included the claim that reversing this collapse of TWC's comments was a violation of their edit restrictions. ] I would see such a collapse of my comments as a provocation and uncivil. K.e.c. should not have restored the collapse after it was removed. Perhaps a clear option for dealing with such provocations would be helpful if TWC isn't allowed to reverse them directly. Springee (talk) 13:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Waleswatcher
I've had some recent interactions with TWC that were unpleasant and verging on uncivil, for instance this. Waleswatcher (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Geogene
TWC's response here is bad enough by itself to suggest admin intervention. Not only do they not see any issue with their previous suggestion of setting up some kind of Project Firearms taskforce to spy on K.e.coffman's (K) edits in an organized manner, TWC took K's concern about that bizarre and aberrant suggestion as an admission of being guilty of...something (a pre-emptive strike....He clearly is not happy about the prospect of that occurring). Then TWC reveals an OWN mentality when they begin trying to insinuate doubt into whether K should be editing firearms articles at all due to a short tenure (But the facts are this: in the 6 months prior to Feb 14, K.e. didn't edit a single firearm-related article) and because K may not be editing with the motivations of a firearms enthusiast (Then the Stoneman shooting occurred, he was heavily involved in the editing of that article from the beginning, along with the mass-shootings in the U.S. article). TWC then makes a vexatious complaint about K being too prolific (since then (the past 3 months, Feb 14 - May 14), he has gone on a spree, removing and altering content to numerous (approx 50, perhaps more) firearm-related articles on a massive scale). And finally, he complains about K, in effect, not asking Project Firearms for permission to edit firearms articles: ( I don't feel a single editor should be changing the entire encyclopaedic presentation of firearms on WP, while at the same time, completely dismissing the Firearms Project, it's scope and it's members).
K.e.coffman is now editing firearms articles, TWC sees this as an incursion on his longstanding territory, and is trying to intimidate the invader. This is unacceptable behavior from TWC; Admins should remove him from the conflict area. Geogene (talk) 04:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Drmies
Preliminaries first: I've had some run-ins with The Wolfchild but I think we've been getting along better--at any rate my decreasing powers of memory make it hard for me to carry grudges. Anyway, I think I kind of like em; they remind me of good old Dennis, with whom I still have to have a beer. On the other hand, I've sided with Coffman a few times on content things, and I am aware of their habit of seeking arbitration resolutions, which kind of sucks cause that makes things complicated. Reading over the diffs and then reading over the comments, it is tempting to say that INDEED there are not the hugest, disruptivest matters--but then one overlooks the previous history, and that's the problem here. Wolfchild, I read your list of quotations, the words that you argue make this turn from report into personal attacks: the problem here is, sorry, that Coffman has a good point. These are things that you do. And I'll tell you what, it was a very minor thing that you just did that reminded me that there was a thread here--you just archived a bunch of stuff on that AR-15 style talk page, which is fine! absolutely fine--but it brought me back here, and yes, there is something to this clerking bit, the accusation that you are doing more than just housekeeping. I'll leave it to the admins (if any of em want to jump into the gun thing) to weigh the diffs presented by Coffman, but I do think they should look carefully at them, since I do think that on occasion you can be a bit...aggressive, maybe, in your out-of-article behavior. I'm trying to phrase this delicately; I'm sure I'm not succeeding. But I'm really with Geogene, above, with whom I just edit-conflicted. Your response here kind of proves the point, and there are other topic areas where there is less of an opportunity for things to get out of hand. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Bishonen, you're right--I guess it's my confirmation bias: I've looked at those two earlier requests (because I have had run-ins with the same editors, I think), and I look at very few others, so I extrapolated unjustifiably. My apologies to K.e.coffman. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Lklundin
I agree with the criticisms formulated by user K.e.coffman. User Thewolfchild seems to have no understanding of what a collaborative effort is. The contributions of an editor is not measured simply in terms of their actual edits, but just as much in terms of how they affect other contributors that they interact with. With respect to the latter, user Thewolfchild uses basically every opportunity to demonstrate that they have no regard for how their actions may negatively impact other editors. Based on that, I support the request. Lklundin (talk) 13:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Thewolfchild
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'll await input from User:Thewolfchild. TWC, could you please comment here, or else indicate whether or not you intend to? Bishonen | talk 18:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC).
- It seems Thewolfchild can't help themselves. I'd block for a week. This shows poor judgment in determining what is a redactable personal attack and they were also told not to ask for closes. Since maintain or "clerk" any discussions still seems unclear to them despite my followups, I'd add "they must not touch other editors' comments for any reason on any talk page except their own". --NeilN 13:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Springee: Other editors can handle that with an appropriate edit summary at which point the discussion should not be re-collapsed without seeking the advice of an uninvolved admin. Also, if an editor feels there is a pattern of inappropriate collapses, bring that issue (with solid evidence) to AE. --NeilN 14:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- I suppose TWC's question above, "How many reports has K.e. filed here now anyway?" was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: three reports AFAIK. This one in December 2017, which concerned American politics, nothing to do with gun control, and led to a warning, this report concerning you, TWC in March 2018, which also led to a warning; and now this ongoing report, which claims you have violated that warning. The reason I'm answering a rhetorical question is that I don't want it to become a meme, for lack of contradiction, that KEC comes "running here every time he doesn't like what someone posts on a sanctioned talk page", and because it worries me a little to see Drmies apparently buying into it ("I am aware of their habit of seeking arbitration resolutions, which kind of sucks" — their habit, really?).
- Anyway, I recommend admins to read the original report from March 2018, which contained some very strong admin statements, and ended in a strong warning, phrased and logged by NeilN. Note, as soon as the next day, NeilN warned TWC again for being too bold with talk page actions and "clerking", despite just having been warned against it. What concerns me most, though, is the personalising of disputes. This recent post, on the talkpage of some model of carbine rifle, from an editor who was fairly recently warned "not to personalize disputes or to use inflammatory language ("comment on the content, not the contributor")", is so far beyond the pale it can't even see the pale. It's an article talkpage, but TWC nevertheless posts a proposal to list all articles KEC has removed content from at WT:GUNS (sic, the firearms wikiproject talkpage), to have as many editors as possible review "this activity" en masse, and then determine "what, if any, further actions or sanctions are required". All this at WT:GUNS! Of course that sort of thing is by no means what project pages, or article talkpages, are for. I blinked in some disbelief when I saw it. I propose a topic ban from gun and gun-control related pages (broadly construed) and discussions for TWC, to be appealed in the usual ways, but also specifically with a recommended appeal here in six months, which will be viewed favorably iff TWC is then able to show they've been editing in other areas without hounding or harassing other users. Bishonen | talk 15:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC).
Icewhiz
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Icewhiz
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Poeticbent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (ARBPIA)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 15:29, 14 May 2018 User Icewhiz in less than one hour (!) removed all mentions of notable historian Anna Poray from over 60 articles. This massive POVPUSH was closely connected with Icewhiz's bad-faith AfD nomination. Citation restored by me, was reverted by Icewhiz in less than two minutes.
- 15:37, 14 May 2018 Exactly as above. Citation restored by me, was reverted by Icewhiz in less than two minutes.
- Got the message (!) and decided NOT to continue restoring citations pending request for enforcement.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by Username (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
- Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
See explanation by NeilN accompanying his editing restrictions imposed on 18 April 2018 (quote) Editors are subject to a one revert per twenty-four hours restriction when reverting logged-in users.
Poeticbent talk 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- My reply to comment by Sandstein (16 May 2018). This has been going on for months thereby causing me great distress. For Icewhiz, all Polish sources are mere "opinions of Polish nationalists".
- Icewhiz 10:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC): use of recent sources from within Poland in regards to the estimate is questionable.
- Icewhiz 07:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC): The opinions of Polish nationalists (and lest I be accused for singling out a nation - the same is true of Russian, Ukrainian, or American nationalists) are for the most part WP:UNDUE, out of WP:PROPORTION, and possibly WP:FRINGE in the scope of scholarly discourse on Holocaust history.
- Icewhiz 07:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC): As for including opinions of PhD holders - if we were to include the opinion of every PhD published on the web - that would be a very wide inclusion criteria. Nationalism, as a movement as a whole, is not fringe. A specific flavor of nationalism (in this case - Polish nationalism) - is a small minority...
- Icewhiz 14:55, 3 April 2018 (UTC): surely there is a better source than Ambasador RP w Szwajcarii (Ambassador to Switzerland)
- Icewhiz 11:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC): Institute of National Remembrance. That's not a peer reviewed publication or an academic publisher, but a government run organization. A better source, if available, preferably in English, would be an improvement.
- What followed was a series of disruptive edits in mainspace along the same lines, meant only to inflict pain. If it wasn't Icewhiz but someone else, I would immediately report this user as a WP:vandalism-only account which (at that point) it certainly was:
- Icewhiz 11:55, 25 April 2018 (-11,007) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust Quite a bit here is not sourced. The source in the lead is not a RS.
- Icewhiz 11:56, 25 April 2018 (-1,645) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (→References: not RS.)
- Icewhiz 11:57, 25 April 2018 (-268) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (→Bibliography: not RS)
- Icewhiz 11:59, 25 April 2018 (-933) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (remove non-RS.)
- Icewhiz 12:01, 25 April 2018 (-386) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (→Jews and the Church: not RS. Text left unmodified - other supporting ref.)
- Icewhiz 12:01, 25 April 2018 (-555) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (→Difficulties: not RS)
- Icewhiz 12:03, 25 April 2018 (-991) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (→Jews and the Church: Mislabelled authorship. Not a RS.)
- Icewhiz 12:04, 25 April 2018 (-561) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (→Bibliography: not RS)
- I created that article with a lot of effort; and, I don't see how, with so many disruptive edits by Icewhiz within just several minutes, I could still pretend to continue to comment on content, not on the contributor anywhere in Misplaced Pages. However, it was just the beginning as I soon found out.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Icewhiz
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Icewhiz
A number of comments:
- 1RR is not relevant. There is a page level restriction on Collaboration in German-occupied Poland, not on any page Poeticbent mentioned (some of which may not be under ARBEE - but most probably are). It seems this report was partially copy-pasted from a 1RR vio report I filed above.
- I was not notified of this AE filing by Poeticbent as required (the diff supplied is a WP:POINTy BLP DS alert by Poeticbent - with text copy pasted from an alert I gave him after after he made this comment on a talk page, and given he made similar comments in the past (calling a work by a notable historian a "fabrication").
- Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray was made in good faith - despite the
45 WP:ILIKEIT votes that appeared in very short succession (from non-AfD regulars) after nomination. The subject does not meet Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines (doesn't come close to meeting SIGCOV. BEFORE doesn't show much else. This was a librarian who in retirement ran a website http://www.savingjews.org/ which was also WP:SELFPUBLISHed as a book or e-book (publishing house listed as A. Poray), 7 refs in articles - 2 are by Poray herself, 2 are interviews on releasing the book (in sources that may not be RSes - however interviews do not establish notability regardless), 3 are obits). - I have indeed removed references to WP:SPS - this is well grounded in policy. In most cases I left a cn needed tag (as I suspected the information was copied (possibly with overlaid editorial) from a primary RS initially - e.g. Yad Vashem). In some cases I suspect the subjects mentioned were possibly BLPs (e.g. the son/daughter of a WWII era person) - which I removed outright per SPS:
Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.
. Note that it seems that Poray, other than her self-published book, never published in a reliable source, so it doesn't seem she falls under (the use with caution exception) theSelf-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
(which doesn't apply to BLPs in any event). - Regarding the Poray SPS I have engaged in discussion where reverted - see Talk:Żegota#Anna Poray - SPS. Also see PB's response - (which contains personal attacks, addressing SPS with a very short and novel argument of
"Anna Poray is not a WP:SPS publishing historian because she is deceased"
(AFAIK self-published books do not become published on the death of their author)). The following 2 diffs are BLP violations by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella (unless they have a RS for each of the 27 names showing they are dead - per WP:BDP we assume individuals less than 115 year old (birth year 1903) are alive.). - GizzyCatBella has been inserting/resorting SPS content in a discretionary sanction area against policy - , , , . including false information (see Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#"only German-occupied European country" with death penalty and Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#"only occupied county with death penalty" for detailed refutation) from a questionable (Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#Use of Ewa Kurek as a source) author without discussing (I will note that I believe that a consensus has been reached with other editors to exclude) - repeatedly - . (I will note I took this to RSN - but it shouldn't have gone there - as there are no grounds for inclusion of information proven false, by a questionable author, in a self-published (iUniverse) setting). Note the IDHT given Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Your Life is Worth Mine: How Polish Nuns Saved Hundreds of Jewish Children in German-occupied Poland, 1939-1945 - E. Kurek (while editing as an IP for a month (self-admitted)) back in April following another attempt at using Kurek.
- Poeticbent has been inserting SPS content (over a very long period, however an exhaustive list of diffs will take time to compile) in several articles. He has been reverting removals (and for the most part not discussing constructively) - (added when PB created the article), (created by banned user Ecoleetage, Poray added by PB in 2008), .
- I have been cleaning up poorly sourced and even outright fringe material (contrast Stawiski#Jewish community with the last version by Poeticbent whose actions have been commented on (not by myself - well before I started improving some of these articles), in the press outside of Misplaced Pages (this item does not mention Poeticbent by name, but if you follow the article history he is
"On each occasion, the author of the Misplaced Pages Stawiski article immediately wiped out my edits"
) - I will note that this item makes the interesting observation that"Surprisingly, the Polish Misplaced Pages articles evidence greater willingness to admit Polish participation in massacres of Jews"
(a pattern I have seen myself on many low traffic articles - I've been balancing some of the English Misplaced Pages articles using the Polish Misplaced Pages (tone and sourcing used there) - as the Polish Misplaced Pages is much less POVish, reflecting a diversity of Polish (and foreign) sources (as opposed to a very particular POV type of sources used in these enwiki articles)). Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Massacre of Brzostowica Mała (2nd nomination) and Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2018 March 23 (IIRC - created by Tymek, but heavily expanded by Poeticbent) are also instructive regarding the sort of content that has entered into the English Misplaced Pages in less visited topics. - During these cleanup efforts, I have been personally attacked by Poeticbent several times. As an example, please see the following: , , , , , in an edit summary - restoring SPS, , , , , , .
To sum up - removing a WP:SPS from articles, as mandated by policy, should not be attacked - definitely not on a personal level, and this is not a valid AE report (both in form (1RR, no notification) and in substance (removing a SPS is not a policy violation - to the contrary)). Despite the personal attacks, I have responded in a WP:CIVIL manner and on-topic (and I hope to the point, though I self-admit my writing may be winding) - addressing the content/sourcing dispute at hand, and not Poeticbent personally. Icewhiz (talk) 03:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Masem: - my intention had been following an attempt at removing this clear SPS to proceed to the relevant talk pages and then to RSN if need be - following BRD. Many of these were added a long time ago when sourcing standards may have been laxer - it was not clear a-priori that removal would be challenged.Icewhiz (talk) 04:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Masem: - regarding WP:FAIT - It is less than 60. I did not continue removing this SPS from other articles after being challenged by Poeticbent via reversion - I was not
"apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed"
while I was editing. I can revert all of my removals of this SPS in less than 15 minutes - this is much easier/faster than reviewing the articles and finding them in the first place - and I will do so myself if consensus is against this change (which I believe is well grounded in policy, this being self-published by an author not previously published in this field in a RS).Icewhiz (talk) 14:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)- I do however request that the following diffs with personal attacks by PB (a selection of item 9 above) be examined - .Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- RE Piotrus - I did notify Poeticbent of the AfD. I want to note that the mass insertion of WP:QS authors self-published works (such as works by Ewa Kurek, Mark Paul, Anna Poray) is a serious WP:NPOV / WP:FRINGE issue. Take Poray for instance - Her self published work was present in some 50 Misplaced Pages article (in many of them - further reading or as reference that was not inline, much of this inserted by Poeticbent) - google scholar has her at 0 citations (scholar only accounting for academic use). Contrast this with Gross's Fear - 359 google scholar cites vs. 11 uses on Misplaced Pages (including articles on Gross and the book itself), or Neighbors 718 google scholar cites vs. 13 Misplaced Pages cites (4 of them being the book, Gross, a book award, and a list of books).
- Poeticbent has been inserting (and defending with great gusto) several of these WP:FRINGE WP:SPS works. At present, we have some articles that read like Alternate history - describing the Holocaust as a collaboration between Jews (Per Kurek they "had fun in the ghettos" enjoying autonomy and self-governance under the Germans) whose activities "'constituted de facto collaboration with Nazi Germany, with which the Soviet Union shared a common, criminal purpose and agenda in 1939–1945" (see this diff - quote from Mark Paul - from NEIGHBOURS -On the Eve of the Holocaust,); Oddly (per Paul, Kurek, and Poray who have all written on the subject) the majority of Poles acted in a noble fashion and despite the Jewish persecution against them - acted in an organized and dis-organized effort to rescue Jews on a massive scale - although this was not recognized properly by Yad Vashem's righteous awards. (mainline historical writing, while extolling the few righteous, seeing rescuers as a persecuted minority (by Poles and Germans) - with Jews in Poland being killed at one of the highest rates (approaching 90%) in the Holocaust - the majority of survivors surviving outside of Poland - escaping (or being expelled to the gulags by the Soviets) to the east).
- This is the true disruption here - not only are these highly questionable authors, but more importantly - WP:FRINGE text from them is inserted into Misplaced Pages articles, in Misplaced Pages's voice and without balancing sources, in the first place - counter to WP:SPS / WP:BALASP / WP:FRINGE - attempts to rectify the situation are met with long discussions (with no policy legs), call for administrative action, and vehement personal attacks ().Icewhiz (talk) 05:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Additional personal attack/WP:ASPERSIONS by Poeticbent - 15:33, 16 May 2018 - (selective quotation)
you are being manipulated by a POV pusher with a deep bias against Polish people in general.... Dozens of Misplaced Pages articles about Poland are under attack by the same WP:TAG TEAM on the basis of a smear campaign by Israeli media. Instead of buying into this WP:GAME of casting aspersions .... It is a false claim made by notorious POV pushers
. (it also describes Poray's work in a manner not congruent with Misplaced Pages policy or other RSes).Icewhiz (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)- @Sandstein: While the original circa 2008 additions by Poeticbent are not actionable, the multipe recent reverts by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella , , , - after they have been clearly challenged as WP:SPS (by a fringe author to boot - and USHMM incidentally collects everything holocauat related - also fringe /denialist) - are actionable as editors are supposed to adhere to core policies such as WP:V and WP:NPOV in a sanctioned area. This is not a borderline source - this is a clear fringe, self published book, by a non expert who has not published in a RS on this topic. I will further note that the revert in the Zegota article violates BLP policy (both of them being alerted to) - assuming they did not verify that all 27 named individuals are dead - then they are assumed alive per BDP.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- RE the diffs causing "great distress" above - the first 3 are to a page (talk and main) Poeticbent never edited (he did place a single oppose comment in the DYK nom). However, this page (talk and page) was edited heavily by GizzyCatBella at the time. This is quite interesting in regards to still open Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/GizzyCatBella and the evidence therein, being possible additional evidence.Icewhiz (talk) 03:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: While the original circa 2008 additions by Poeticbent are not actionable, the multipe recent reverts by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella , , , - after they have been clearly challenged as WP:SPS (by a fringe author to boot - and USHMM incidentally collects everything holocauat related - also fringe /denialist) - are actionable as editors are supposed to adhere to core policies such as WP:V and WP:NPOV in a sanctioned area. This is not a borderline source - this is a clear fringe, self published book, by a non expert who has not published in a RS on this topic. I will further note that the revert in the Zegota article violates BLP policy (both of them being alerted to) - assuming they did not verify that all 27 named individuals are dead - then they are assumed alive per BDP.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Additional personal attack/WP:ASPERSIONS by Poeticbent - 15:33, 16 May 2018 - (selective quotation)
- I do however request that the following diffs with personal attacks by PB (a selection of item 9 above) be examined - .Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Masem: - regarding WP:FAIT - It is less than 60. I did not continue removing this SPS from other articles after being challenged by Poeticbent via reversion - I was not
Statement by GizzyCatBella
Please recognize that this is not the first time Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is doing that The same happened to another historian Marek Chodakiewicz - 19 mass removals, some in the repetition of 2 minutes of each other. Attempts of discrediting and removal of other historians under false pretexts are constant and against the view of the majority of other editors. That is not genuine effort to build Misplaced Pages on the part of Icewhiz; this is a massive POV pushing and violation of precepts. Once again, I urge the evaluating administrator to take a sound look at Icewhiz editing record on Polish history articles (please). This user should be topic banned in my honest belief.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by François Robere
First of all, let me state the obvious: GizzyCatBella is everywhere. I haven't seen a single ANI case where she didn't appear to contribute some comment or another, invited or not. She may seem well-mannered, but make no mistake: It's WP:HOUNDING.
The topic in question is subject to much abuse, not least by this editor. She adds questionable sources again and again - non-historian Leszek Pietrzak , borderline denialist Eva Kurek , self published Mark Paul , dated sources , political appointees , and even "light reading" books ; all the while questioning encyclopedias , respected scholars , the occasional paper of record and other RS. This choice of sources seems to serve an agenda , and isn't helped by other editors' misconceptions of "what makes an RS" . Problematic enough? It's happening in multiple articles at the same time.
I submit that while Icewhiz's changes may have been swift, his judgment of sources is excellent and should be understood in the context of what I just described: recurring insertions of tendentious non-RS material to multiple articles at a time, with what appears to be an intent to sway an entire topic area towards a particular POV. Taken like this, Icewhiz's edits seem not only beneficial, but efficient. François Robere (talk) 10:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Aside on conduct: I understand Icewhiz's outrage with Poeticbent's comments. The latter seems to have taken an interest in him and in myself, moving from derogatory comments that one admin characterized as " bad faith and shade" , to accusations of "gang attack on a woman" . Needless to say this isn't acceptable. François Robere (talk) 15:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: This seems to fall on whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications
. This would allow for eg. a published expert who also happens to write a blog, but not someone who only self-published. François Robere (talk) 13:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: Excuse me, but aren't our standards supposed to be higher then "her book is cited a number of times"? Especially in this topic area, where there's no shortage of good sources? And why should the removal of these sources be discussed, rather than their addition? If it's tendentious and poorly sourced, editors shouldn't add it to 50 articles simultaneously. Incidentally, it's the same editors who fought tooth and nail against having Gross, Grabowski, Bauer and other sources of impeccable scholarly reputation who are now pushing these sources every which way. François Robere (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
@Sandstein: A possible conduct problem could be the mass removal of those references
What about mass additions? Would a pattern of using low-quality sources to justify contentious claims constitute a "conduct problem"? François Robere (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment by My very best wishes
There is no policy that all references to self-published sources must be automatically removed. According to the policy, Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. The self-published book by this author has been cited in several other books and sources. The author may or may not be notable, but still be an expert. Therefore, I think the removal would need a WP:Consensus in this case. It was done without consensus.My very best wishes (talk) 13:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @François Robere. Her book was cited by others a number of times. Does she qualify as an expert on the subject of Polish people helping Jews during German occupation? This is something debatable. So it needs to be discussed and decided. Blanket removal of references without an appropriate discussion and consensus, even after the objections were raised by another contributor, was grossly inappropriate, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment by Piotrus
Mass removal of sources from dozens of articles in a controversial area should not be done without gaining consensus. I don't understand why there was no RSN discussion about her first, as would seem prudent. I doubt there is anything actionable here (AfD is hardly bad faith, it is totally fine to test the notability some topics through an occasional AfD), however I'd hope in the future Icehwiz will not mass remove sources (SPS or not) in controversial area without RSN discussion first (one, I will add, that should ping, if possible, editors who added said source in to the Wiki in the first place). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment
Much as I may or may not sympathize with perhaps deleting the Anna Poray article (if this is the result of the AfD), I don't think wholesale deletion of 60 Anna Poray refs before her own article has been decided is the best approach, unless perhaps there is strong evidence all 60 refs were insidiously added to the Wiki by one single editor, or a coordinated simultaneous cabal of editors. Absent that, each deletion would have to be well justified by its own merits and for just cause. I am not a fan of eliminating refs willy nilly, and there is usually room to qualify WP:QS in the text or otherwise deprecating such arguments w/o memory holing them. XavierItzm (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by K.e.coffman
I’m only tangentially involved in these disputes, but I’m sympathetic to Icewhiz’s position when it comes to obscure / WP:QS sources, having taken part in a number of RSN / TP discussions: RSN: Discussion (Paul; Kurek), as well as here: "only occupied county with death penalty”. In this AE, Anna Poray was referred as a “notable historian”, which is not really the case, when it comes to the definition of ‘historian’ as being “a student or writer of history; especially : one who produces a scholarly synthesis”. The flowery language of “Poray-Wybranowska published a ground-breaking book entitled Those Who Risked Their Lives in 2007" is cited to the book itself.
References
- Anna Poray (2007). Those who Risked Their Lives (Google Books listing). Anna Poray. ISBN 0979221307. Retrieved 7 October 2013.
Regarding the statement that this book is used in 60 Misplaced Pages articles – my general observation is that, with so much written about the Holocaust in Poland, better sources are surely available and there’s no need for non-peer-reviewed texts from WP:QS publishers. I’ve dealt with a situation in WW2 articles where many pages were citing the pulp writer Franz Kurowski; that’s not necessarily a sign of the reliability of an underlying source. In Poray's case, I would treat the book as a WP:QS source. There has to be a compelling reason to keep such sources in an article. And certainly not in situations when they are listed in "Further reading" or not used for citations. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment by E.M.Gregory
I took a close look at Poray after noticing Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray. She is certainly a WP:FRINGE, revisionist whose work is cited only by an ideologically extreme group of like-minded FRINGE historical revisionists, and by enthusiasts of this sort of invented, partisan history editing Misplaced Pages. It is damaging to the project to mislead our readers by supporting pages with sources/authors of this calibre.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment by E-960
I find the constant push to use rhetoric as very detrimental to the overall discussion on the topic of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray, user E.M.Gregory continues to write that Poray is a WP:FRINGE scholar. But, let me ask you... would the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum list one of Poray's books if she was a FRINGE or REVISIONIST author?? Pls see here: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum - Collections Search - Polish Righteous, those who risked their lives by Anna Poray.. --E-960 (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Follow up comment. If you don't agree with Poray, that's fine, there are many notable scholars who over/under estimate things, but to just keep repeating that Poray is a WP:FRINGE author, is absolutely baseless. What is it about the Second World War or the Holocaust, that Poray got SO wrong to be completely discredited. --E-960 (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Result concerning Icewhiz
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'll just leave here the idea that the AfD mentioned seems to be populated with a number of people using CAPITAL LETTERS, as ... oddly, do some of the AE reports above this one. Examining the contrib history of some of said editors (not Poeticbent) may be interesting. Just an observation, like ... Black Kite (talk) 00:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Waiting on icewhiz's response but the two examples above don't appear to be violations of 1RR since Icewhiz appears to have stopped after one revert. --regentspark (comment) 01:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I would argue that mass removal of a specific named source or academic/historian/whatever of this size should have some type of broader discussion before the removal is acted along, along the lines of WP:FAIT (but same can be said about inserting such a yet-validated source/academic in a mass number of articles for the same reason). That itself in this case I can't say is actionable, but its the type of behavior that doesn't help avoid battlefield behavior in these topic areas. --Masem (t) 04:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Icewhiz, my only concern is that there's a balance between properly following BOLD/BRD to remove some SPS, and doing a mass wipe of them that would evoke issues related to FAIT. Even if the author's sources are all SPSs, the fact they were used across 60 some instances would have me check to see if it was a single editor that added them in the same time period (fully justifying a BRD removal), or if they have been used by many editors over a broad period of time and thus should be discussed better. SPSs are not automatically disqualified as RSes, but they should be reviewed carefully. As I said, on that aspect, there's nothing immediately actionable, but I do express the need for caution when doing such a large "change" even if one feels they are following BRD for that. --Masem (t) 06:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- I do agree that per Icewhiz's diffs for Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella, reversion of removal of the sources that Icewhiz at least calls out as SPSs in the edit summary is problematic behavior in an area covered by an AE already. I'd definitely at least trout and caution both of them to restore/revert removal of sources that have been called out as a problem, and just a general call that when issues of a specific author or source are in question, it is generally better for cooperation/minimal disruption to seek consensus first. --Masem (t) 17:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Whether the work by Anna Poray should be used as a source, and for what, is a content issue which AE does not adjudicate. A possible conduct problem could be the mass removal of those references, but the request does not identify any conduct policy violated by this mass removal. The ArbCom principle in WP:FAIT applies only after the mass editor "is apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed", and it is not alleged here that the mass edits continued after such apprisal. Moreover, the removals seem to have been undertaken in good faith based on the opinion that the work is not an appropriate source for Misplaced Pages to cite (which I can prima facie understand, given that it is apparently self-published), and not with disruptive intent. I would therefore take no action here. Sandstein 14:00, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- @François Robere: Mass edits (either removals or additions) can present conduct problems depending on the circumstances, but the hypothetical situation you describe is not before us and does not need to be decided here. Sandstein 17:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- I've looked more closely at Icewhiz's counterallegations regarding Poeticbent. The charge of misusing SPS isn't something I'd act on, because it's close to a content dispute and it's not realistic to expect admins here to check the reliability of this number of sources; that would need an ArbCom case. But I think that Icewhiz's complaint regarding personal attacks by Poeticbent are actionable; one needs only to look at their most recent edit ("you are being manipulated by a POV pusher with a deep bias against Polish people in general") in addition to Icewhiz's examples to get the impression that this is somebody who operates in full WP:BATTLEGROUND mode. I think that a topic ban from the World War II history of Poland (the apparent topic of this set of disputes) would be appropriate here. Sandstein 20:49, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- E-960, there are 275,377 items in that collection, and at any rate being in a library collection doesn't mean very much. Having read over all this I agree with Sandstein, Masem, and Regentspark. Drmies (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Ayytro
Blocked for one week. Sandstein 14:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ayytro
The user have less then 500 edits and he was specifically warned not to edit I/P articles.Also his use of "IOF(Israel Occupation Army)" instead of IDF raise the question if an editor can edit neutrally even after gaining 500 edits.--Shrike (talk) 19:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning AyytroStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AyytroStatement by (username)Result concerning Ayytro
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cassianto
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Cassianto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Cassianto 22:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Block of one week
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Statement by Cassianto
This was a report of disruptive behaviour, on a contentious article, to an uninvolved administrator on their talk page. Another helpful admin was also present and between them they brought calm back to Sinatra and one of the committee's coverted DS notice was dished out by the ever so helpful RexxS. I was not "discussing" infoboxes and the use of them. To have a "discussion" about Infoboxes would require at least two people to...erm... discuss them, and a discussion, in its literal sense, would require at least two comments from either side. I am fully aware of my limitations, as per here. I was trying to be transparent by reporting this over wiki and seeing as this case was "not about Cassianto", then you should all be thankful that I'm helping to fight this problem rather than aid it. Both Bishonen and NeilN have stated that it never even occurred to them that my report was in breach of this clumsily written sanction. Clearly, this is just another example of someone with tools not able to write a clear and coherent instruction; quite what Sandstain's use of "abstract" means is beyond me. But if the committee really want to force me underground to email people off-wiki about such matters, then fine, I will, and none of you will be able to prove otherwise.
Re Sandstein: "No, I'm not defending the reverted edit, it's clearly disruptive trolling. But as a topic-banned editor, Cassianto should have let somebody else address it." -- I did, on Bishonen's talk page. This is wholly contradictory, bearing in mind, according to you, I'm banned "in the abstract". How else would you propose that I let Bish know...by the power of positive thought?
Statement by Sandstein
This appeal should be declined.
Cassianto is subject to a topic ban (WP:TBAN) from infoboxes (). The ban prohibits Cassianto from making any edits involving, or about, infoboxes. By making such an edit at , Cassianto violated the ban. The block was therefore necessary to enforce the ban.
Edits such at the one at issue here are neither excepted from topic bans by WP:BANEX nor by any other policy. The point of the topic ban (and the preceding ArbCom sanction against Cassianto) was exactly to get Cassianto out of acrimonious disputes about infoboxes, such as the dispute Cassianto attempted to further with the edit at issue. The conduct at issue here was therefore exactly the kind of conduct the topic ban was intended to prevent.
Cassianto previously unsuccessfully appealed this topic ban to WP:AN (). It is therefore clear that the ban is valid and binding on Cassianto. The statement by Cassianto, above, that they intend to circumvent the ban by off-wiki proxying is a further indication that Cassianto does not intend to abide by the valid restrictions applying to them, and that the block (or probably a longer one) is therefore needed to prevent Cassianto from violating these restrictions. Sandstein 06:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I now noticed another topic ban violation by Cassianto just prior to the edit at issue here. Sandstein 12:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Bishonen: I do not know who among the users involved here supports or opposes infoboxes, and I don't see why this should matter here. Sandstein 17:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Mr rnddude: No, I'm not defending the reverted edit, it's clearly disruptive trolling. But as a topic-banned editor, Cassianto should have let somebody else address it. Per WP:BMB, "bans apply to all editing, good or bad". Sandstein 09:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Premeditated Chaos: I agree that the edit taken in isolation would probably not merit sanctions (although it does contain battleground-like, aggressive statements). But what you may not be aware of is that Cassianto is subject to a comprehensive topic ban from infoboxes, which applies without respect to the merits of their edits. The ArbCom have clarified that the ban is within the scope of discretionary sanctions, and uninvolved editors at AN have declined an appeal against the ban. Under these circumstances, I think that for an arbitrator to question the enforcement of the topic ban is to question the binding nature of discretionary sanctions imposed per WP:AC/DS itself, and therefore the possibility of effective enforcement of the Committee's decisions. Is this what you are arguing for here? Sandstein 09:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SN54129
@Guy: quick point. Yes, almost certainly a "breach." Less certain is whether it was a deliberate experiment, and that is the crux of the matter. As others have suggested, if it was for a reasonable purpose (re. the discussion on Bishonen's talkpage) then that makes it an accidental breach; no mens rea = no "experiment," I suggest. On a broader note, this whole episode of bombasticity seems likely acieve little more than make it harder for editors to report problematic behaviours: a curious position to arise. —SerialNumber54129 14:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Dave
Cass is damned if he does and damn right damned if he doesn't, Decline the case and amend the rule to say something along the lines of "Reporting editors on a users talkpage is fine". –Davey2010 23:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Coretheapple
This was a clear violation of the topic ban. At one point in the recent past (I'd have to comb through the various post-arbitration proceedings to find it) I said that the arbitration decision would never be clear and that you were in for an endless series of hair-splittng and wikilawyering. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. Coretheapple (talk) 04:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Here it is. "Whatever you decide will be tested further. Nothing ever will be clear." Coretheapple (talk) 04:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mr rnddude
I'm just here to address a comment from Sandstein. That second edit you are linking to, is Cass reverting a now indefinitely blocked nothere user. Is trolling really the type of thing you want to defend? Mr rnddude (talk) 04:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SchroCat
GoldenRing, I have little time for much of what has gone on at ArbCom, given how unfit for purpose it or its members are, but don't talk about me behind my back - that shows a lack of courtesy. Furthermore, I am not "wikilawyering": if what is supposed to be the main arbitration body on WP cannot do things properly, and draft their decisions with fucking big holes in it, one can hardly expect people not to question the ineptitude. The only thing I'll add, is that if you have a place that is open to ask for clarification, don't bitch and whinge when people actually use it to ... ask for clarification. Don't also be surprised when people are fucking angry that the "solution" ArbCom have come up with still does not address the main cause of grief around IBs - POV pushing, drive-by voting, endless re-litigation, socking, soft and hard canvassing and logged out editing. No-one even bothered to look to look at that, they simply focussed on the people who get frustrated at having to deal with the questions time after time after time with no help or protection from Arbs or Admins. So yes, "forceful" it may be - it's because I'm furious at yet another fuck up that will see yet another IB case at Arbcom in a few years, if more people are not driven away from editing in the meantime. - SchroCat (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cassianto
Result of the appeal by Cassianto
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This looks like a very obvious topic ban violation to me, but I'd like to hear from NeilN and Bishonen as those who were involved in the discussion. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agree that this looks like a clear violation. Number 57 11:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- At the very least, this is a breaching experiment. It's time to stop. Guy (Help!) 13:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Clear violation. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- As I stated on Sanstein's talk page, I wasn't thinking of Cassianto's topic ban when I replied on Bishonen's page as I hadn't been following the proceedings. Had I been aware that it was still in effect, I would've advised them to disengage. --NeilN 13:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- I've already given my opinion of the block on Sandstein's page. I believe a warning would have been appropriate, and that a one-week block was a draconian response. For the record, I'm also pretty unhappy about Sandstein's comment above, that Cassianto intends to circumvent the ban by off-wiki proxying (=by e-mailing concerns about what he perceives as violations) and therefore needs the block "or probably a longer one" to prevent him from violating his topic ban. Surely not? The intent of the ban was to make sure Cassianto wouldn't disrupt infobox discussions. Wasn't it? Does a topic ban really extend to e-mail as well, and what discussion would it disrupt? And how would a block, however long, prevent somebody from e-mailing, if it comes to that? (Cassianto doesn't actually have wikipedia e-mail, so we can't remove it, and I do believe by now he probably has all the e-mail addresses he could possibly need.) I think you've become overly engaged in this, Sandstein, and are taking a too rigid approach. Threatening to "sanction" RexxS, a well-known supporter (!) of infoboxes, for offering to assist Cassianto off-wiki suggests the same thing. RexxS is a highly respectable and experienced user; the notion that he'd "proxy" for Cassianto is just an offensive assumption of bad faith. Compare RexxS's entirely credible reply here: "Any assistance I give will be to help ensure that he doesn't involve himself in on-wiki conflict going forward, but what contributions I make on-wiki are the product of my own reasoned decisions, not as a proxy". Bishonen | talk 14:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC).
- @Sandstein: No, I understand you don't, or didn't, know that RexxS is a supporter of infoboxes. But are you saying you also don't find the fact of any interest, now that you have been told about it? Considering, I mean, that what's got Cassianto into so much trouble is the way he's expressed his resistance to infoboxes. Bishonen | talk 11:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC).
- I also do not believe Cassianto was trying to fuck around the ban experimentally or otherwise, nor do I believe they're setting up an off-wiki proxy ring. The comment may not have been wise, but that quick block was a bit too quick for my taste. Drmies (talk) 16:19, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Consider the history of events; looked at one way, Cassianto was put on probation by the committee; fairly quickly violated the terms of their probation; tried to wikilawyer their way around the terms of the probation; got a wider topic ban as a result; almost immediately violated the terms of the wider ban; got blocked; now is trying to wikilawyer around the terms of the ban again. Whether that's Cassianto's intention or not, I can certainly see how an observer might see events in those terms and when looked at that way, the block is pretty understandable, isn't it? For a first tban vio, I might have picked 48 hours, though on that history I might not have, too. At any rate, Cassianto is no stranger in these parts and should know how these things work. The continual claims that they didn't think they were violating their probation/ban are not very impressive - any other editor, we would expect to be careful around the edges of their ban, and to make the same mistake twice in a couple of weeks at least suggests that they're really not bothered about abiding by the sanctions in place. GoldenRing (talk) 17:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Though I should perhaps add that the most forceful wikilawyering has come from ShcroCat, and in my mind SchroCat is not doing Cassianto any favours - most recently with their aggressive input at ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- I know it's generally discouraged for arbs to comment here, but I don't see this particular block as a constructive use of the discretionary sanctions. While I could do without the barbed phrasing at the end of the comment, Cassianto did go through an appropriate channel to legitimately seek assistance with dispute resolution, by way of asking Bishonen to invoke DS - rather than try to intervene with the user directly himself. Frankly that's the kind of thing I'd prefer to encourage in infobox disputes (not only for Cassianto), and I don't think it's helpful at all to slap Cassianto down for it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- A clear violation of the topic ban. I wanted to respond specifically to PMC above; the ban exception for "legitimate dispute resolution" applies only to resolution regarding the ban itself, not to resolution regarding others in the topic area. We tried to allow Cassianto to work within normal editing guidelines and remain in the topic area. That didn't work, so they were banned from the area entirely. At this point, Cassianto is unable to participate regarding infoboxes. That was not the desired end outcome, but it's the one he chose by not abiding by his original restriction. ~ Rob13 10:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)