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Revision as of 22:47, 31 October 2006

Definition of sex tourism

I just wrote a definition for "sex tourism" in the opening section of this article which expanded upon the one we had in order to provide a more general discription. The previous definition seemed to only be concerned with prostitution and sexual abuse of child, which is not conclusive of the phenomenon. Although sex tourism is most often associated with prostitution, this is not present in every case.

Let me mention that I have a master's degree in clinical psychology from California State University, and that I have studied cultural anthropology at the University of Southern California as a minor of my undergraduate degree. I have also traveled extensively to many of the better known sex tourism destinations to observe and participate in these customs and rituals.

I believe this is a good definition for sex tourism. If you have anything to add to this definition please say it here.
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 22:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The term sex tourism is coined with the specific meaning of "tourism for the purpose of having sex" — participation in the sex trade in other words — and the subject is usually linked to prostitution. Besides being a specific subject interesting in itself, this is important in the study of trade and economics on a regional and international scale, and is also in many cases a human rights issue.

The term generally does not include all tourism concerned with the subject of sex (including in your examples observation and museum visits), as your "generic" definition leans. By introducing this vague definition, you draw attention away from the abovementioned concerns, and generally muddy the waters. I hope this is inadvertent.

As an academic, you probably have a grip on peer-reviewed sociological journals. If possible, please provide a link that demonstrates this term is widely accepted to mean all tourism concerned with the subject of sex. Otherwise, please revert your edits — they are off-topic, and water down the article without providing useful information. — edgarde 01:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree with that, as there are also no citations that back it being defined as narrowly as you suggest, I'm not certain as to why it would be limited in such a way. Of course, references for either view would be welcome. My understanding was also the broader definition of tourism related to sex, not specifically for "intercourse". My guess is that people would not want the narrower definition as that would scare away tourists. Atom 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Again I'm not an academic, so I won't have access to the kind of quality information Mr. Knodel has, but here are a couple easy ones.

• The World Tourism Organization's Statement on the Prevention of Organized Sex Tourism as "trips organized from within the tourism sector, or from outside this sector but using its structures and networks, with the primary purpose of effecting a commercial sexual relationship by the tourist with residents at the destination"
• Google UN.org, *.EDU. Heck. Just Google "sex tourism". Try it excluding "child".

I see no mention of retirees visiting sex museums, and you'd have to dig pretty hard to find swingers' vacation resorts (which I imagine don't want to be associated with the term "sex tourism"). Pretty consistently the term is used to mean the practice of travelling to countries with few or poorly enforced sex laws and a large population of economicly distressed people for the purpose of engaging in sexual activities.

Please revert your definition.

Also, please stop inserting the commercial spam link to Sly Traveler Sex Guide. Misplaced Pages is not here to optimize your search engine ratings. — edgarde 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Thank you both for responding. In response to the first reply, can you tell us where the term sex tourism is coined as tourism for the purpose of having sex, and why we should accept this instead? Your argument that tourism exclusively for participating in sex is necessary for studying the economic influence may not be acceptable. Observational sex tourism does provide economic income for sex tourism destinations as well. For example Casa Rosso in Amsterdam or the Park Hotel in Costa Rica generate substantial revenue through tourism provided by live sex shows. Also there are museums in Nevada that older tourists travel to without participating in sexual intercourse. The hot springs of Bebbu in Japan are another example of this. There are websites on all these places that you can use as a reference, including some articles in Misplaced Pages itself. I'm unfamiliar with sociological journals or a particular social scientist to refer you to on “sex tourism”, because it is a new topic.

There is also the fact that sex tourism need not involve prostitution. There are swingers clubs and orgy events in Amsterdam and Buenos Ares that are very good examples of how people travel internationally to have sex without prostitution.

As far as human rights, you might want to pursue that under other topics such as child sex tourism, illegal prostitution, or sexual abuse. Human rights are also at sake when people are forced to follow beliefs that their own culture does not support. I mentioned this by including cultural relativism as an important issue within the subject of sex tourism. The definition that I provided leaves plenty of room for the exploitative dangers of sex tourism as well.

If you want to add some kind of emphases on how prostitution is even more important in our definition than we already have, I suppose you can do so. But we already stated that "a sex tourist is usually defined as an adult who travels in order to have legal consensual sexual relations with another adult often for the exchange of money or presents."

Also, please identify yourself in your replies.
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 02:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You are misquoting me here.

"Your argument that tourism exclusively for participating in sex is necessary for studying the economic influence"

That is not what I said. I could restate it, or you could re-read it.

My argument is that "Sex tourism" is defined accurately and succinctly in the first paragraph of this page, and furthermore that this page is padded with sugar-coated pro- sex industry POV.

Please revert your definition. — edgarde 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Edgarde, as I said, "sex tourism" has acquired a derogatory connotation that is unjustified. Let's take Amsterdam as an example. Most of the people who go there to see the sexual attractions do not participate in sex with prostitutes. I don't know what kind of travel experiences you have had, but this true for almost all sex tourism destinations. I will not deny that the main purpose of sex tourism is most often to have sex with prostitutes. But that is not all there is to it. The definition you have is too limited and does not accord with the complexity of the actual phenomenon. By the way, I consider the link that I added, :* http://slyguide.com Sly Traveler to be a good site on the subject of sex tourism, which does not promote the negative meaning you defend. If you have a certain prospective that you feel is important, go ahead and write about it, or add your own link. There are a lot interesting sexual customs out there that most people don’t know about. And the majority of them aren’t as bad as you make them out to be. What would you like to see changed? I think you are asking too much to change everything completely just for you. I, at least, think it is necessary to say something about how not all sex tourists are child molesters and can have an appreciation for the diversity of human sexually found throughout different cultures, which may or may not involve prostitution. Furthermore, I still strongly believe that sex tourism can include observation as well as participation.

What is most important to you in defining "sex tourism"? Can you give us an example of what you feel must be included. Edgarde, I can tell you are a respectable person, and I would like to come to some sort of mutual understanding so we can stop arguing, and give other people a chance to contribute.
Daniel E. Knodel, M.A. 09:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've already stated what I think is "important" and "must be included". My main issue is with your definition, which is disingenuous nonsense:

Sex tourism is a general term that entails traveling to foreign countries either to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own.

... in other words, sex tourism is simply any tourism that involves sex. This is like defining "stoplight" as "a lamp that people stop in front of perhaps as an agreed meeting location", or "waterboarding" as "use of aquadynamicly shaped pieces of lumber or similar material for surfing". Both definitions are make literal sense, but that's not what those terms mean. The suggestion that "sex tourism" has "acquired a bad name" is industry Spin (public relations), as was the removal of Trafficking in human beings. (By the way, thank you for restoring that.)

Atomaton asked "Let's have references for either view". I gave a definition with a reference, plus a Google trail that suggests that definition is in wide use in academic and general writing at least on the web. Your rebuttal is that sex tourism "has acquired a derogatory connotation that is unjustified". As you are an educated person with experience in the subject, it's hard to continue giving you the benefit of the doubt here, especially considering your insistence on linking a commercial site, and gratuitously hotlinking it from this page.

Please revert your definition. Also, please remove your spam links from the article, including this Discussion page. — edgarde 16:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment

This is a controversy about how Sex tourism is defined. 22:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• Sex tourism has a specific meaning of "tourism for the purpose of having sex", particularly for participation in the 'sex trade'. I object to a redefinition here as tourism "to observe or participate in sexual customs other than one's own" because

1. that is not the commonly used meaning, and,
2. using that redefinition obscures many of the economic, cultural, legal and political implications that the term carries.

Items I object to are removed in this edit, but I would also encourage those commenting to start by reading the Definition of sex tourism discussion on this page. — edgarde 22:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments

1. Atom 22:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC) I view this as an NPOV issue. There is no central authority for correct definitin of the term. That means that any editor can give their perceptions/opinions of one or more known usages. Those perceptions/opinions need to be backed by some reliable reference. For instance, if the term is used in United Nations documents, or a news or magazine article discussing the term. To remain NPOV, we should offer fair balance and allow the definitions that are offered and cited. An important factor here is that this article is not a vehicle for special interests, or a campaign on an issue (for instance an anti-abortion organization or activist trying to control an article to make their case.) This is referenced in Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox. There is ample room here to say "Sex tourism is a term often used to mean "X" by the United Nations and other NGO's in trying to combat "Y". Also, the term is seen to be more broadly defined to mean "Z" by the tourism industry and other organizations."

Cuban sex trade

The charge that Cuba is encouraging the sex trade is a political one that has no basis in fact, according to sociology professor Nelson Valdes:

http://www.counterpunch.org/valdes10182003.html

Further, by defining sex tourism to include only travel from wealthy to poorer countries, the raging legal sex trade of the US state of Nevada is covered up. --Jose Ramos 21:05, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Excuse me, nobody said in this article that Cuba (or any other country) was encouaging the sex trade; no country would be that stupid. In fact the Cuban government has done much (although with limited success) to try to curtail/discourage sex tourism within its borders.

However, the sex trade *IS* rampant there, I can personally attest to that! <g>

Don't even get me started on that wacko leftist rag that you are quoting as fact! This is not the proper forum to espouse your political agenda. Select a more widely accepted publication, and maybe everyone here won't think you're a crackpot.

Now, as for the "raging" sex trade in Nevada.... Cover up?? Please!

A couple of overpriced brothel "ranches" in the middle of the desert do not qualify as a "raging" sex trade. Only the Donald Trumps and Bill Gates of the world could count Nevada as a sex tourist destination (and it would still be a poor one at that!) Chances are some of those girls in Nevada make more than most of us!

A sex worker in Thailand or Cuba earning $50 a day is doing well!!

Sorry, but when I see stupidity, I must rant...

-oarias

Yes, because CLEARLY no one goes to Las Vegas to take advantage of the direct-to-your-hotel-room "escorts" whose brightly colored advertisements are handed to you as you walk down the strip. Prostitution may not be technically legal in Vegas, but the ban against it is not enforced -- perhaps because sex tourism is a big part of what drives the LV economy. -- Lottelita 19:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Prostitution exists everywhere, by your definition then ALL cities everywhere should be on this list. There isn't enough room, and honestly isn't in the spirit of giving anyone any real USEFUL information. I've been to Vegas, I've also been to Bangkok, Rio, Havana and several other places on the list; there really is NO comparison. I'm not here to argue however, you want Nevada on this list FINE; but I'm certainly not going to leave it at the TOP of this list where you (or someone) decided to place it.--Oarias 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let me try to explain my rationale on this a bit better... Suppose Kris Kringle (living in the North Pole) decides to go somewhere warmer for summer vacation. He may very well pick Alaska, which to HIM is a warmer location. (Alaska would be the "Las Vegas" in your argument.) Now Kris could go online and think "Wow, I saw a complete lack of snow in Anchorage last summer." and therefore decides to add Anchorage, Alaska to a list of "popular destinations to enjoy warm weather". While from his perspective, he is right; from a GLOBAL perspective he is dead wrong. Trust me, as a die-hard whore monger I would love nothing more than to have a REAL "sex tourist" destination here in the US. There are many factors that define a good "sex tourist" destination as seen from a GLOBAL perspective, of these factors "legality" is probably the LEAST important. Prostitution is "technically" illegal in MOST sex tourist destinations (Thailand, Cambodia, etc). Zero enforcement in these countries helps, but it goes beyond that. Price, attitude (of the women), exotic location make up the bulk of the rest of the reasons these places are popular with the mongers. Las Vegas and Amsterdam do not have these reasons. Las Vegas probably has the lowest "bang for your buck" factor of any POSSIBLE sex tourist destination. If I want to drink, gamble, watch Wayne Newton, or pay $300 for a 30 minute "session" in my hotel room with a mean-spirited plastic-injected 30 something barbie doll then absolutely I want to go to Vegas. If I want to spend $30-$50 for a full night of the best sex ever with a beautiful, natural woman who knows no clock and still wants to be with you after the sun rises then I go to Thailand. --Oarias 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Would Amsterdam be a good country to add to the list of popular destinations for sex tourism? -- Lottelita 19:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A better choice than Nevada, but only marginally so. If your not a sex monger you wouldn't understand this. See my previous message. --Oarias 03:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

National preferences. This is mostly written with regard to Western and I presume north American preferences, does anyone have anything useful to add about Japanese sex tourism. I'd like to add something about Japanese sex tourism and sex tour groups to China (basically your run of the mill coach trip but with sex laid on). However I don't know if it would be just pure jingoism on the part of the Chinese press, to believe that another motivation for Japanese sex tourism to China, is the desire to humiliate the Chinese(in a notorious case a tour coincided with the annivesary of the beginning of the Japanese invasion of China).Cetot 07:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

"American men are also known to travel to developed countries such as Canada, the United Kingdom " Is there really any evidence of this? I don't believe the UK is considered a sex tourist destination, especially as brothels are illegal, and London is a famously expensive place. 213.122.164.123 15:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed that line as, as far as I know, that prostitution is illegal in these countries, while the line seems to imply otherwise. Zhatt 22:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Prostitution itself is legal in Canada and in the UK, however several surrounding activities are illegal. But I agree: there's defintely no significant sex tourism from the US to either of those countries. AxelBoldt 04:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Depends what you consider 'significant', I suppose? The Detroit-based adultmb.com (a discussion board for clients of "female escorts") is all but monopolised with info about Windsor, Ontario (as outcall prostitution is not unlawful there, unlike in the US). The "Dave from Phoenix" sites sexwork.com sexworktoronto.com also advocate travel from the US to Canada due to restrictive American laws. At what point is this "sex tourism"? Dunno. Détroit to Windsor is (geographically) almost the same city, Phoenix to Toronto is rather distant. Where does one draw the line in defining "tourism" if between adjacent countries? --66.102.74.41 17:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Singapore & Batam

Singapore has no such law, in spite of being adjacent to the sex tourism destination of Batam in Indonesia.

I deleted this line and it was added back in... does it seem kinda out of place or random to anyone else?

When deleting, please put a reason in the Edit Summary. Also, please sign your comments.

I wrote the line, and I agree it needs work. But being incomplete is better than not being there. Other Wikipedians can add other examples that they know of, and/or I will add more information as I'm able to.

The issue I believe deserves to be highlighted. Singapore I think is unusual in being adjacent to the child sex tourism destination. Thus a law in Singapore targeting child sex would be particularly significant. However I welcome alternative views.

Another reason I wasn't inclined to take your edit seriously is that you, or someone using your IP address, has made a habit of vandalizing Misplaced Pages articles (e.g. "Lee the bastard").

If you wish to contribute, please do so, but 1. do it in a constructive way, 2. fill in the edit summary, and 3. preferably create an account.

--Singkong2005 05:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions, I will post comments in, and sign my comments on talk pages.

Please, include the info about Batam as a CHILD PROSTITUTION DESTINATION, that is not how the article reads now.

I've changed it to:

Singapore has been criticised for having no such law, in spite of being adjacent to the sex tourism destination of Batam in Indonesia, which has many underage sex workers, some of whom have been tricked or forced into prostitution, according to media reports.

It might be getting off the track a bit, although I believe the information is relevant.

I have no idea what you are reffering to about my IP address, here is my contrib list: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=69.107.52.142

Please let me know what you are refferencing.

In that case I'll accept that I made an error. (I had looked at the IP address of the user who removed the line, which was 202.156.6.54, and viewed some of the edits at random... but I can't find them now, so I may have clicked the wrong thing. In any case you're obviously being reasonable about this question.) --Singkong2005 03:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

btw, I have made an account and you'll see me around as Devalover peace 69.107.95.35 07:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Great. Can't find your user page though. When you sign, use four tildes (the wavy symbol) to sign, then it links to your user page. Or just use the button above the edit box, second from the right. --Singkong2005 03:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

-- CHANNELNEWSASIA REPORTS: SINGAPORE TO ENACT CHILD SEX TOURISM LAW Time is GMT + 8 hours Posted: 02 March 2006 1711 hrs

Government amending laws to deter child sex tourism By S. Ramesh, Channel NewsAsia

SINGAPORE : The government is coming down hard on Singaporeans who engage in sex with minors, even abroad.

It is amending its laws to extend extra-territorial jurisdiction over its nationals who sexually exploit minors overseas.

Speaking in Parliament on Thursday, Senior Minister of State for Law and Home Affairs Ho Peng Kee says the government is also making it an offence to purchase sexual services from anyone who is under 18.

He says child sex tourists take advantage of the inability or the unwillingness of the host country to prosecute them.

Back in Singapore, prosecution is also constrained as most countries do not extend extra-territorial jurisdiction for sexual offences.

Professor Ho says: "Presently, Singaporeans who have sex with minors in other countries cannot be prosecuted in Singapore as our courts do not have jurisdiction over them.

"Members have urged the government to stop our nationals from preying on minors from other counties by denying them a safe haven through enacting legislation of extra-territorial effect. We have taken note of these views and have factored them in our review."

The Home Affairs Ministry says despite the constraints and difficulties in dealing with child sex cases overseas, Singapore recognises that having sex with minors anywhere is deplorable.

So the government has decided to take firm action and amend the laws to extend extra-territorial jurisdiction over Singapore nationals who sexually exploit minors overseas.

The changes will be introduced once the on-going review of the Penal Code is completed.

The Home Affairs Ministry is also tightening measures to protect young persons from providing sexual services.

Professor Ho says: "Being more easily influenced, their consent can be impaired. As such, they are more vulnerable to being trafficked, controlled and exploited by pimps and traffickers who prey on them and live off their earnings."

He says although there is no evidence to suggest that there are significant numbers of 16- and 17-year olds engaging in prostitution, the government feels there should be a higher age protection for commercial sexual activities.

So, it has decided to make it an offence for anyone to purchase sexual services from a person who is under 18. - CNA/de

sex worker "work ethics?"

Does this sentence make sense to anyone as a motive for sex tourism: preferring the "work ethics" of foreign prostitutes to those of one's own country

Devalover 07:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Work ethic is a polite way of saying "they love you long time". - RoyBoy 16:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

) ahhhhh. thanks Devalover 15:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

child prostitution

Personally, I would like to see this section gone, or merged with child prostitution... the article is about legal sex tourism... any thoughts?Devalover 15:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The article is about sex tourism, legal or not.--Patrick 23:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Devalover's point was there are TOO MANY references in the article as a whole about child prostitution. It gives the article a "bias". In this small article there is at least SIX references to "child prostitution" or pedophilia. "Child prostitution" should be a different article in and of itself with ONE link to and from this one. Unfortunately there are pedophiles in every sector of society. There isn't a single mention in fornication or Human sexual behavior or even in Priest (which I find amusing). Hmmm... but there are SIX references in this article along with 50% of the links. Actually, now that I have poked around a bit I've found Prostitution of children, probably most of that stuff can go there. I'll check out both this article and that one and see what can be put there. Oarias 08:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I've moved some of this stuff to it's own section "Crime and controversy", also cleaned up the section about sex tourism in the prostitution article (it was WAY biased). Anyhow.... boy this article is hard to keep NPOV! ;) Oarias 11:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Vandals

Vandals in this page (Justin Hay?)

Ummm, yep!

Feel free to edit out any vandalisms you find. Also, you can sign your comments by typing 4 "~"'s Devalover 17:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Muslim countries?!?

Quote from the article:

Occasionally, sex tourists go to conservative countries for the challenge of tricking women there into having sex with them. A notable case is Philippe Servaty who traveled to Muslim countries where he persuaded women to do degrading things by promising to marry and bring them to Belgium. He then posted photos online to boast of his conquests, but when his explicit materials were circulated back to Morocco many of the women were arrested, had their lives ruined, committed suicide or simply disappeared. "

This is the ONLY case of this sort of thing I've heard of. Does this need to be in "Destinations" ?? Oarias 11:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, moved and reformatted to "Crime and controversy" section. Oarias 11:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice with the crime and controversy sections Oarias, For this and the child prostitution sections.Rhythmic01 05:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Legal issues in the United States

Federal law prohibits American citizens to engage in international travel with the purpose of having sex with a person under the age of 17, even if the age of consent in the target country is below 18. Prosecutions under this law are very rare.

I changed this to

"Federal law prohibits American citizens to engage in international travel with the purpose of having sex with a person under the age of 18, even if the age of consent in the target country is below 18. Prosecutions under this law are very rare."

I believe the 17 number is incorrect. Please see the Protect Act of 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/PROTECT_Act_of_2003

POV?

"In 2005 it was reported that Philippe Servaty, a newspaper columnist for Le Soir, traveled to Muslim countries where he persuaded women to do degrading things by promising to marry and bring them to Belgium. He then posted photos online to boast of his conquests, but when his explicit materials were circulated back to Morocco many of the women were arrested, had their lives ruined, committed suicide or simply disappeared."

Isn't that bolded word a hint of POV?

Prostitution?

"Women sometimes give clothes, meals, cash and gifts to their holiday boyfriends, but not all (especially in Southern Europe) expect compensation." I dont see how a man (or a woman for that matter) who is having sex with a tourist and does not expect compensation is considered a prostitute???