Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:37, 6 November 2006

I think this should be moved to Scientology and psychiatry (which is currently a redirect back here) - more of a discussion article - David Gerard 19:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It sounds reasonable to me. -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:52, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Moved! I'll go through and fix the redirect links in, er, a while - David Gerard 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Pavlov

I think a section about Scientology's "history" of psychology should be added. They make some claims which don't really seem historically accurate: http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/heritage/pg010.html

"In Russia, former veterinarian Ivan Petrovich Pavlov served the dictator Stalin with experiments to discover how man could be controlled to better serve the state. He reasoned that if dogs could be made to slaver on command, so could human beings. Man had now been reduced to the level of a mindless animal — and thus psychiatry was born, as a tool for tyrannical governments." 71.251.53.169 23:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

In the book Scientology -- The Fundamentals of Thought, Mr. Hubbard explains that the subject is actually descended from the roots of psychology, but that we must understand that it is not descended from current psychology, but rather the older psychology as was taught in the religions of the world before the spiritual essence of the study was removed in the last century. Psychology means literally "the study of the spirit." Psychology of today has lost this meaning and no longer studies or recognizes the spirit as a bona fide field of study. In this sense Scientology is very different, as it does study the spirit, as most great religions of the world do. Terryeo 06:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You raise an interesting point. Much of what Hubbard claimed about psychiatry's history is pure fantasy - it'd be interesting to do a brief critique of the nonsense that he peddled to his followers versus the generally accepted view. As to why he made such claims, I've often wondered if he suffered from a form of iatrophobia (fear of doctors). He clearly had some significant mental health problems (the US Veterans Administration has a letter from him on file in which he requests psychiatric treatment). It could be that he developed a morbid fear of psychiatrists which he attempted to rationalise by, in effect, demonising them. If so, it was rather unfortunate - he clearly needed help but was too afraid to get it. -- ChrisO 07:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that he peddled anything and I don't agree that he presented nonsense to anyone and I don't agree, especially would not agree that he 'peddled nonsense to his followers'. Since you can only view his words, written and uttered as nonsense, I do understand why you don't reply to the issue the citation talks about, but instead attack his credibility with your flight of wonder. Terryeo 10:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you agree with. It matter's what is actually true (ie not the history of psychology Hubbard presents) 71.251.53.169 01:37, 30 August 2006

Hubbard's claims are remarkably similar to those made by creationists concerning the supposed moral degeneracy of evolution, which they portray (falsely, of course) as being responsible for eugenics, the Nazis, Communism etc - exactly the same litany of accusations that Hubbard made against psychiatry. See Creation-evolution controversy#Claims of immorality; the parallels are striking, I think. Hubbard himself seems to have been something of a creationist, judging by his denunciations of the "man from mud theory" (sic). -- ChrisO 00:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So, how does that make it any less appropriate for us to address the fantastic claims and modified history that Hubbard (or at least CoS) says is true? I am sure Misplaced Pages addresses how some creationists accuse evolutionists of being evil etc. 71.255.232.138 00:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand me - it doesn't make it any less appropriate - in fact, Misplaced Pages has a very extensive article addressing creationist claims about evolutionists (see Creation-evolution controversy#Conflicts inherent to the controversy). I would like to see something similar for the Scientology-psychiatry controversy. -- ChrisO 13:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hubbard's Fiction is used as substantiation for Scientology

Now that' just silly. Hubbard wrote "Battlefield Earth" which mentions several things, including psychiatry in it. But to cite it as a source of policy, that's silly. Entertainment is one thing, to make entertainment a policy another. That's silly. "This theme also appears in some of Hubbard's literary works. In Hubbard's "dekology" Mission Earth, various characters praise and criticize these methods; and the antagonists in his novel Battlefield Earth are called Psychlos, a similar allusion." Silly and non-sequiter, dispersive and not useful to the article. Terryeo 12:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the title of the article

It is Scientology and Psychiatry. So why does its content read: "L. Ron Hubbard and Psychiatry?" Mr. Hubbard has been dead for some 20 years, is this going to be a historical novel? Terryeo 23:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources for quotes

http://www.solitarytrees.net/cowen/misc/psywar.htm is only an indirect source (is the author trustworthy?); moreover, as it's only a copy of a Usenet post, why don't we link directly to the post in Google Groups? Apokrif 23:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The author is our own User:ChrisO who has stated his identity in various discussion pages. But no matter whether that particular newsgroup message is stood up for or not, newsgroups messages are simply not useable as either primary or secondary sources. They have no attributability, they have no accountability, they are a dashed off collection of words, originating anywhere on the globe by anyone, saying anything. How would you verifiy it, and if you could, how would you attribute it, and if you could, how could you ask the author of it whether his use of word "xxxx" meant "yyyyy" or "zzzz" ? Newsgroup messages are simply not useable as a source of information. Terryeo 10:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

not a lot of disccussion

As usual, as in most of these articles, the people who work hard to make a good, readable, understandable article are the same people who discuss. The people who cut an paste large quantities of information into the article don't. "Scientology and Xenu" that is covered over at the operating thetan article, it makes this one too long. "Scientology and Psychiatry" that's another redundant piece. Almost exactly the same information is in both articles. I like the idea of independent, easy to digest pieces so the reader can go here and learn this and go there and learn that, but doing it all twice? Its silly. I removed a good sized chunk that is already in the Operating Thetan article. Terryeo 01:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Pick up a "real" encyclopedia sometime and you will see that relevant information is repeated whenever necessary in multiple articles that are related. We cannot assume that the reader will always "go here and learn this and go there and learn that" in the same order. And as for your neverending plea for constant drawn-out discussion over your latest ill-conceived edit of the minute, some of us manage to say all that needs to be said in our edit summaries. wikipediatrix 22:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The article presently says something about the Church of Scientology's stance regarding Psychiatry. Then, without a word of introduction it states that L. Ron Hubbard's fiction also criticized Psychiatry. Perhaps you see a lack of flow? The datum, "L. Ron Hubbard created the Church of Scientology and wrote most of its policies about psychiatry" is not present in the article. There's no connectivity which presents the relevence of L. Ron Hubbard's fictional stories to psychiatry's criticsm. Sometimes I think some of you simply revert my edits wherever they appear. heh! Terryeo 11:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Not a scientologist

I inverted the meaning of a paragraph in the article. I quote the paragraph after my edition:

It must be noted however that Scientology's position is quite different to that of other critics of modern psychiatry, such as Thomas Szasz, in spite of the fact that it is said he co-founded the Citizens Commission on Human Rights with Scientology (see below).

Just take a look at the above-mentioned link critics of modern psychiatry. That Misplaced Pages article has been almost totally re-written this month.

Szasz is only an emeritus founder of CCHR. He is not a scientologist and never has had any power in CCHR’s policies. More importantly, Szasz never has said in his numerous writings that psychiatrists are behind all evils of the world; or that the World War II, the Bosnia genocide or September 11 are the work of psychiatrists. Szasz’s critique of psychiatry is not a religious critique. He himself is totally agnostic.

I also changed the phrase that “lobotomy is not longer practiced”. Even the Misplaced Pages psychosurgery article admits it is still practiced, though infrequently. Cesar Tort 19:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Can't make them behave, cut out their nervous system, isn't that disgusting? Terryeo 22:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Extremely disgusting. I hope shrinks won’t exist in the future... —Cesar Tort 22:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

what "silly allegation"?

Terryeo's edit summary says "removed the silly allegation that the Chruch of Scientology's stance against Psychiatry is due to Hubbard's Fictional books", and yet the article made no such allegation. Strange. His comment about the APA making no comment about Scientology is also untrue. They *have* commented on it, and it wasn't pretty. wikipediatrix 19:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I did remove that silly allegation. By placing some of Hubbard's Fictional characters and their attitudes in fictional books (written for entertainment), by placing that information in the article the arguement is presented that somehow, fact is stranger than fiction, that fiction and fact are somehow mixed up with each other, intertwined with each other. Had Hubbard created a movie like Hitchcock did, scare movies, would you quote his fiction to support his stance on abortion? Its a silly way to support non-fiction acticles unless you are thinking of presenting that Hubbard had compulsions about psychiatry and couldn't eat, breathe, speak or think unless he was criticzing psychiatry. And by the way, let's get that APA statement in there, its a pretty little statement, "we gunna ignore Hubbard, duh." Terryeo 14:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The fact remains that you said the article contained an "allegation that the Chruch of Scientology's stance against Psychiatry is due to Hubbard's Fictional books", when in fact the article never said any such thing. wikipediatrix 14:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

What is the title of the article? Is it, "Hubbard and Psychiatry?" Well, no. it is "Scientology and Psychiatry." Hubbard created Scientology, perhaps an article titled, "Hubbard, Scientology and Psychiatry" would be a proper place for Hubbard's fictional depiction of Psychiatry to go. But as part of "Scientology and Psychiatry" Hubbard's fictional works are not an appropriate part. There is an allegation that Hubbard was mainly a fictional writer and that his fictional writing had effect into society which Psychiatry was effected by, or recognizes, or has validity. Terryeo 23:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

You keep dodging the issue. I repeat (for the third time): you made a statement that the article contained an "allegation that the Chruch of Scientology's stance against Psychiatry is due to Hubbard's Fictional books", which it did not. wikipediatrix 13:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I mean to address the issue. The article is about a subject, by including Hubbard's ficitional works as a support or validation for Scientology's stance about Psychiatry, it implies there is something within Hubbard's fictional works that somehow, in some hinted at but undisclosed way, contribute to Scientology's stance against Psychiatry. The "silly allegation" which is not stated in the article is something like, "Hubbard was so obsessed with psychiatry that he couldn't even write fiction, but to include anti-psychiatry" (which says nothing about the Church of Scientology). Or, alternatively, the silly allegation is something like, "The Church of Scientology follows the guidelines set out in Hubbard's fiction, fighting Psychiatry on every planet in the galaxy." heh! Terryeo 18:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your perception that such an implication exists or existed in the article. And do you deny that the Church looks upon its mission to fight psychiatry as an intergalactic one, and/or one whose Sea Org members swear to a billion year contract? wikipediatrix 19:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha. that is funny. lol. I am talking about the fiction presented in the article. lol. From a fictional paragraph we are jumping to "do you believe Scientology will last for billions of years and fight psychiatry throughout the galaxy" I'm sorry, I am laughing too hard to seriously reply.Terryeo 19:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Whenever you get through laughing, you can answer me. I am not joking. wikipediatrix 20:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Groovy, since you are not joking, I'll reply seriously. The quoting of an author's fictional creations in a non-fictional setting for purposes of attempting to present the "mindset" of an author reeks of POV. It implies the subject should be fiction in the first place and has no validity in the second place. Your other statement, "the church looks upon its mission" is best replied to by the church's presentation of its goal. "The rehabilitation of the human spirit" That is what it says it is doing and that is its effort. Do you expect me to believe in a "billion year contract?" Present some proof that man lives beyond one lifetime and I'll seriously answer. Is there some proof that other planets have life on them? Present some proof and I'll seriously answer. If there is proof of life on other planets, do they, like this one, have psychiatry? Present some proof of that and I'll have a bucket to throw my answer into, untill then its an amusement to consider. Further, how anyone can be serious about such a question is beyond my ken. Terryeo 01:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Whether I believe in aliens and billion-year lives (and I don't) isn't the point. Since you are ridiculing these concepts, I presume you are also ridiculing Hubbard for stating these concepts, and that you are ridiculing the Sea Org for having a billion year contract. Interesting that you're trying to point the tinfoil hat at me when these concepts are Hubbard's, NOT mine. And how is it you defend the idea of "Thetans" when this is also part of the same Space Opera you just ridiculed? wikipediatrix 02:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is, you asked a question. My POV is all over my user page, yours is not, instead yours says, "if you get to know me better..." but you refuse to get to be known. You don't state your POV, but ask me questions. The point is, I have responded to your question. I'm glad you find my response interesting, but you completely misunderstand what I state and misinterpret what I state. The point is, when an author writes fiction, he or she does it to sell a book, to make an income. This is the same motivation that Hollywood and the news media have, to sell. Their action is monitored by their result. Hollywood and the news media will produce anything that will sell (that they can legally get away with). That was Hubbard's motivation and that is any author's motivation. The article takes that motivation, quotes it as some part of "Scientology and Psychiatry". The point it, that makes no sense. The point is, I have answered your inquiry. Now, may we get back to the point? Will you confront the point? If you wish to talk of these thing like thetans and space opera, feel free to on my user page (for my personal replies) or in the appropriate article. Terryeo 07:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

This explains something?

Hi there! A Scientologist friend of mine told me Hubbard’s second wife intended to commit him, but when the shrinks tried to get him "he used judo and escaped". Perhaps this explains something? —Cesar Tort 14:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, sure does explain something. Explains that you are not polite enough to have read how discussion pages are formatted, that you should open a new discussion point in a new sub-heading. It further explains that while, years ago, a spouse, a law officer and a priest could together get any person in the USA committed and committed in such a way they would never again see the light of day, that attitude and law is not longer extant, and believe it or not, in some measure that is due to Hubbard's work. Have a nice day. Terryeo 22:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Fiction quoted as a contribution to non-fiction

Does this actually make sense to anyone: "who rule the alien Psychlo species" This is a contribution to this article? Would someone mind explaining what relevence an author's fictional work has in a Church of Scientology and Psychiatry article? Hubbard isn't even introduced as being connected to Scientology, Scientology is hardly introduced either and psychiatry is just a big word and isn't introduced as a formal body. The article reads like someone's ramblings, memoirs or something. Yet if I take the fiction out of it, what would be left? Terryeo 16:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

What part of "L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology's founder, was bitterly critical of psychiatry..." did you think wasn't clear enough? And the first paragraph introduces Scientology as a Church, and establishes that they are opposed to psychiatry. And in the context of the article, yes, the Psychlo part makes perfect sense to me. wikipediatrix 21:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Now its good, now Hubbard is introduced as the founder of Scientology and therefore there could, conceivably be a reason to mention the founder of Scientology. Even though the article is about Scientology and Psychiatry. So sure, Hubbard's attitude about psychiatry is germane, now. But his fictional works? What about "buckskin brigades?" Is that going to be argued as some kind of opposition to a civilization which spawned psychiatry? Are we going to hold Hubbard up as stoking the egos of the masses with buckskin? Its silly to reference fiction which is obviously written for the purpose of selling books in a non-fiction article. Terryeo 23:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"Buckskin Brigades" was written before the advent of Scientology. "Buckskin Brigades" does not mention psychiatry, either directly or allegorically. "Buckskin Brigades" is not as important to pop culture or to Hubbard's reputation as "Battlefield Earth". Therefore, your hyperbolic comparison of them is irrelevant. Also, the statement about Hubbard being the founder was already in the article when you first made your complaint at 16:48. wikipediatrix 23:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

POV

I don't believe the article accurately states Scientology's reasoning for its stance against Psychiatry, nor the issues it takes it stance on. The article is full of exaggeration, implications stated as claims, claims stated as facts and facts surrounded with emotionally slanted words. It isn't encyclopedically written and even includes published fiction. Surely a more exacting and accurate, and therefore a more devestating presentation can be made ! Terryeo 23:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Tell me which sentences you specifically consider wrong and I'll provide sources for them if possible. wikipediatrix 00:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes:

• The article presents Hubbard's opinion. That's fine. But the article doesn't support Hubbard's opinion. This sentence portion present a book which Hubbard did not write and was not part of, as evidence for Hitler's tie to psychiatry, rather than presenting that it was Hubbard's opinion. "the rise of Hitler and Stalin"
• I get no link on this sentence portion: "the decline in education standards in the United States"
• Hubbard was long deceased when this sentence portion happened. But the article presents that he had an opinion that it was caused by Psychiatrists (of course it is not uncommonly known that Bin Laden's right hand man is a graduated Psychiatrist). "and the September 11th attacks"

It specifically says "Church of Scientology claims...", not Hubbard. Read it again. wikipediatrix 03:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• This set of sentences which have no link, no publication which states that Scientology's stance is due to Hubbard's fiction. "This theme also appears in some of Hubbard's fictional works. In Hubbard's "dekology" Mission Earth, various characters debate the methods and validity of psychology. In his novel Battlefield Earth, the evil Catrists (a pun on psychiatrists), are described as a group of charlatans claiming to be mental health experts, who rule the alien Psychlo species."

Why do you persist in acting as if "This theme also appears in some of Hubbard's fictional works" equates to "Scientology's stance is due to Hubbard's fiction"? The two sentences couldn't be more dissimilar. Nowhere does it say that Scientology's stance is due to Hubbard's fiction. It simply says what it says, that the theme also appears in some of his fiction. Which it does. You are trying to twist it into meaning something it doesn't. wikipediatrix 03:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I persist because the title of the article is "Scientology and Psychiatry" and should present that information. "Hubbard and Psychiatry" would be an article which could present every bit of everything Hubbard ever did that Psychiatry doesn't laude and love. But this article, Hubbard lived and died, Hubbard founded the Church, the stance of the Church hardly depended at any time on Hubbard's fiction. Hubbard's fiction is an area of information unrelated to the Church's stance on psychiatry. Hence it shouldn't be included.Terryeo 14:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

That is what you say. Others say differently. In fact, the Mission Earth series attacks psychiatry in direct and non-allegorical terms, so I may expand the section even further. wikipediatrix 16:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• These sentences should appear in reverse order, as one should present the more general statement first, then individual statements from individual psychiatrists: "A number of psychiatrists have strongly spoken out against the Church of Scientology. After Hubbard's book, Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental Health was published, the American Psychological Association advised its members against using Hubbard's techniques with their patients."
• The application of the blockquote which starts, "Our enemies are less than twelve men..." is not attributed to any psychiatrics, nor to psychology nor to anything remotely connected with either practice, except that the tweleve he mentions uses psychiatrists in their control methods. Thus, the article is positioning Scientology against the world's wealthy and not against psychiatry.
• This is not exactly right. The Church is more careful with people who have a "mential illness history" but dont actually forbid services utterly. "The Church of Scientology has policies which forbid its ministers to counsel the mentally ill"
• This sentence should not be included at all because it is not about Scientology and Psychiatry, but instead attempts to create bias against a particular psychiatrist. "It must be noted however that Scientology's position is quite different to that of other critics of modern psychiatry, such as Thomas Szasz, in spite of the fact that it is said he co-founded the Citizens Commission on Human Rights with Scientology (see below)."

No, the sentence is literally true and it's quite important to illustrate that other anti-Psychiatry lobbyists don't even always agree with Scientology. wikipediatrix 03:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is being used as a springboard to discredit Szasz by aligning him (at one time) with Scientology and then hammering away at discreditable things about Scientology (and Hubbard) rather than to present a dry, encylopedica analysis of how the two stand with regard to each other. Psychiatry has simply ignored Scientology. Scienotology has not simply ignored Psychiatry. Terryeo 14:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• This sentence introduces that "psychs" is a derogatory term but that is some individual editor's OR, based on the secondary source he quotes. It therefore is a secondary opinion of what the Church opines and should be introduced appropriately. It closely follows on the heels of Prime Source material and is not readily differentiated by the reader as coming from a secondary source. Besides which, myself, I know that is not accurate (as 'psycs' appears in Scientology literature). "Psychiatrists and supporters of psychiatry are derogatorily termed 'psychs' in Scientology internal literature. Psychs are generally regarded as suppressive persons and have the same non-person status as critics of the Church"

Considering we've established Scientology's hatred for psychiatrists, isn't ANY term they use for them a derogatory one? Anyway, I can get sources on this and will cite them soon. wikipediatrix 03:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It really isn't hatred, Wikipediatrix. "Hatred" is what terrorists feel, "hatred" is a strong emotion and not the reasoned presentation which Scientology does in court cases. To spend money and time and effort which result in a country, such as Australia, changing its laws because Scientology brought psychiatric abuse to the light of day is not an expression of hatred (ended sleep therapy clinic, resulted in a change of Australain Law). "Hatred" doesn't produce that kind of result. "Hatred" might blow up or shoot bullets, but "hatred" does change law, doesn't improve society. Terryeo 00:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• This is not cited, nor quite stated accurately: "The International Association of Scientologists has funded several campaigns against psychiatry. Scientology states that psychiatry must not be trying to eliminate crime..."
• This sentence implies that Hubbard was not able to form a view after 1950, however Hubbard worked until 1986, creating a stack of publications much higher than the average ceiling. "Both therapies were popular in the 1940s and 1950s, when Hubbard would have formed his views on psychiatry"

It implies no such thing. It says just what it says. wikipediatrix 03:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I tell you it is Origninal Research on the part of an editor to state, "Hubbard formed him views on psychiatry in the 1940s and 1950s" That is plain OR. Neither you nor I nor anyone else know when his views formed nor when he modified his views. I bring this up because I suspect that Hubbard continually formed his views about this subject on days other than the 1940s and 1950s, but my opinion is not the point. The point is, you can not state when a person's opinion forms. What you can state is, per WP:V published information which states information. Terryeo 14:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Legal Waivers says: "it has become standard practice within the church for members to sign ... " and gives a lengthy example from (apparently) an Introspection Rundown waiver. That waiver is not cited and the reader has no way of verifying those rather disurbing implications. It looks to me like some editor cut and pasted a piece from the Auditor's Code which a parishoner does not sign, but which a trained Auditor vows to.Auditor's Code
• the Citizens Commission on Human Rights portion is redundant, including the photo, and should be abbreviated with a link to Citizens Commission on Human Rights.
• The sentence: :Scientologists believe firmly in Hubbard's claims about psychiatrists." is completely unsupportable. It can be supported by example, but it can not be broadly nor generally supported and is a mis-statement, misrepresenting the common Scientologist's point of view.

So you're saying the common Scientologist disagrees with Hubbard? Or even MIGHT disagree with Hubbard? wikipediatrix 03:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So I am saying that it is OR to present "Scientologists believe" but would be appropriate if the New York Times has published "Scientologist's believe..." if the article were cited. Terryeo 14:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• This sentence may or may not be true, but it is unsupportable, it is opinion and is not cited by any publication and is OR and should not be in the article: "Mental health care professionals are not concerned that the public will take CCHR materials seriously"
• What possible sense does this sentence make, thousands of exceptions are made to it: "Except for court trials and media publications and public rallys, published materials have received little notice outside of Scientology and CCHR..."
• Well, there is my yes and thank you for asking. Terryeo 01:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Other groups' views

By itself the Antipsychiatry Coalition statement seems harsh. For NPOV, the group Mind Freedom also states that they are not Scientology or CCHR, but gives kudos to them, but it's not as short or as easy to sum up. Probably the paragraph above the quote needs rearranging. I wanted to use a reference rather than a link, but every page is slightly different in how references are handled so I made it a link for now. AndroidCat 04:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The section "such as Thomas Szasz, in spite of the fact that it is said he co-founded the Citizens Commission on Human Rights with Scientology (see below)." Does the "it is said" qualifier make sense and where is the (see below) that fits this? AndroidCat 05:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I do see you are trying to cite the situation accurately and appropriately. May I ask, what information is presented to the reader about Scientology and Psychiatry by including an individual Psychiatrist's confusing, "now I support Scientology's stance, now I don't"? What does that contribute to the article? Terryeo 09:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Since "it is said" that Szasz co-founded CCHR (by CCHR certainly), and he is quoted by them frequently, he's not just an individual psychiatrist. It would be better if there was a connected reference documenting how his position is "quite different" from CoS. The page currently seems to have a long pro and anti reading list rather than references supporting text in the article. AndroidCat 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that some change is needed there. "It is said" is not much different than, "It is rumored" and both are weasel worded introductions to non-encyclopedica content. It seemed to me that linking to Thomas Szasz' first webpage, homepage, main page, whatever to call that, seemed like that link presented the man's current point of view best. But something ought to be done. We do want the actual situation presented to the reader, don't we? Terryeo 14:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

chemical imbalances

The article is presently more about Hubbard and psychiatry than Scientology and psychiatry. An example of this happens just after the introduction where the phrase "for instance chemical imbalances in the brain." is used. During Hubbard's lifetime, little or nothing was published about "chemical imbalances" and to my knowledge (I certainly don't know it all) he never commented about "chemical imbalances in the brain" (which is of course psychiatry's presentation). Yet the article puts "chemical imbalances" right up against Hubbard's statements as if he were alive and in present time to comment on the situation. And "chemical imbalances" is a long ways from being a useable technology yet, many Psychiatrists have even announced publically that drugs and evaluations don't use any "chemical imbalances" information at all. So what's the point? Hubbard never commented on it, Psychiatry admits it is not yet a useable scientific theory. Terryeo 20:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Pain and Sex

The 7th reference listed is listed: "Hubbard, L. Ron (August 26, 1982). "Pain and Sex".". It is listed inappropriately. It should appear as follows:

• Hubbard Communication Office Bulletin of 26 Aug 82, Pain and Sex; contained in The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology Volume XII, pg 417 by Hubbard, published by Bridge Publications, Inc. ISBN 0884047024 Terryeo 04:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

A VERY bad attribution

A personal website may not be used as a secondary source of information in a Misplaced Pages article, WP:RS (reliable sources). A newsgroup may not be used as a secondary source of information in a Misplaced Pages article, WP:RS. The first section of this article completely disregards and abuses both of those guidelines. If an editor wished to change Misplaced Pages's standards, the place to do it would be at the WP:RS page, or its discussion page. Solitarytrees has a cached newsgroup posting. A good deal of quoted text is cited and linked to that past newsgroup posting. The citation should be removed. The text it quotes should be cited to some other source or be removed. Terryeo 19:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That is link , Terryeo 19:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:RS is not policy. It does not have to be adhered to like a set-in-stone rule. You've had this explained to you dozens of times on dozens of articles. What part of that can you not understand? wikipediatrix 19:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Good, Wikipediatrix. Why don't you begin by explaining to me what you lectured (or asked) User:SlimVirgin about on her talk page and later objected to when she pasted it to the WP:RS discussion page? Why don't you explain about that portion, about how you were told in that discussion page that WP:RS, within its area of address is "set in stone" and does form firm rules which must be followed. Start with that, will you? Newgroups may not be used as secondary sources of information for 2 reasons. Those have been extensively discussed at WP:RS and you were part of that discussion, though you got in on the tail end of it by attempting to quietly ask User:SlimVirgin's opinion on her discussion page. Terryeo 03:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've already explained myself on the page you just mentioned, how many times do you want me to explain it? User:SlimVirgin is just plain wrong, and fortunately, she does not set Misplaced Pages policy singlehandedly. Debates about the matter are still raging on the WP:RS discussion page. wikipediatrix 04:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you dispute that RJ67 contains the quoted text? Since I doubt the Church of Scientology provides a readily available online version of the excerpt, this is an acceptable online version of Hubbard's material in my opinion, especially from an article that contains more excerpts from the RJ67 lecture (if there was no more excerpt in the essay than the one on wikipedia, it would be pointless to link to it, the cite would still be valid though). You wouldn't want to remove information that quite significantly contribute to shed light on the Church of Scientology's uncompromising opposition to psychiatry, would you? Raymond Hill 03:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You have asked me if I dispute the existence, the validity of a quotation. It presents yet once again, an interesting duality. Should I reply to your question which is not actually about that article, or should I not? I choose not to. The burden of responsibilty lies on the editor who wishes to place or keep a citation within an article. It is entirely obvious to me that these articles can become very much like alt.net.scientology with only a little degredation in Misplaced Pages's insistence that Personal opinion on Personal website not be allowed as secondary sources. That is the point I raise. I have raised this issue countless times. The issue has been extensively discussed at the WP:RS discussion page. Why do editors continue to cite personal opinion on personal websites? A personal website contains unpublished opinion. It might contain previously published books or news articles too. Those would be citable. The personal opinions, the essays written by (anybody) are not citable. What is the difficulty? Are editors like little children who keep putting the penny on the counter instead of a dime? Personal websites can not be used as secondary sources WP:RS. Terryeo 07:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's stay focused on what concerns you: the quote from Hubbard is not a personal opinion from some obscure netizen. It's Hubbard quoted from his RJ67 tape. Do you dispute Hubbard said what is reported here in his RJ67 lecture? The link to a web site where there are more excerpts from this same RJ67 lecture is merely a convenience for the reader, even if we would remove the link for some reasons, the quote from Hubbard would still be valid, it is well cited: Ron's Journal 67 tape. Do you dispute the RJ67 tape as a reference? Raymond Hill 16:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

My concern is, I hope, the same concern every editor has. My concern is for a good Misplaced Pages. Newsgroups are not citable. WP:RS#Bulletin_boards.2C_wikis_and_posts_to_Usenet say so. It is a very bad citation and I have said so. I am willing to discuss whether or not Ron's Journal 67 was published if you like? I honestly don't know, as of this minute, when it was published or if it was published to the public or published to organizations within the Church. After affirming whether it was published or not, of course I'm willing to talk about where a copy of it might be found if it was published to the public. My statement was that it is a very bad attribution or citation to quote a newsgroup. Terryeo 03:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Other problematic links being used as secondary sources

• Link within the article is using a personal website, as a secondary source of information. Mike Gormez at mgormez@chello.nl, his personal site and opinion are being presented as "previously published by reliable and reputable sources" WP:V. It should be removed and the statements attributed by that site should be removed.
• Link references to , a personal website that is used to state the website owner's opinion. Both his opinion and the link to his opinion should be removed from the body of the article. The website might be included in the exterior links section.
• Link references a quote which is itself valid, but which appears at the link, on a page full of personal opinion of the website owner. This is one reason why personal websites make such poor citations. The link should be removed, it could be included as an exterior link. A better source of that Hubbard quotation should be found.
• The section Legal Waivers has a large quote, it should be cited to a document which contains it. Terryeo 03:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The eighth reference

• Mieszkowskii, Katharine (2005), "Scientology's War on Psychiatry", Salon.com. The link to Spiegel.de is a cache, information which was once on the internet, but is no longer. It contains advertisements. Wiki policy suggests we use neither cached information, nor use websites with advertising on their pages. The reason for this is that we attempt to be an encyclopedia, rather than a springboard for advertising. Then, the second link points to a Misplaced Pages article Salon.com, which is a news company. What connection that Misplaced Pages article has to this article is tenuous at best. I would say both "references" which appear on that eighth line should be removed. Besides which, the list of references is plenty long without the questionable quality of a link with advertising and a link to a Misplaced Pages article about a news company. Terryeo 16:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What an awful lot of words over a matter solved with a trivial tweak. If you couldn't figure out that "Salon.com" appeared in a reference because that was where the article originally appeared, Terryeo, I really pity your poor research skills. Isn't Scientology supposed to make you more capable? Capable of what, nitpicking? Complaining? Developing traffic? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, to correct just two of the incorrect claims you made: "The link to Spiegel.de is a cache, information which was once on the internet, but is no longer." Actually, it is still available on the Internet, which is why it would have been trivially easy for you to find the original source of the story had you wanted to see the 'error' fixed: just take some distinct text from the story, say "dismiss Tom Cruise's recent outbursts against psychiatry as the ravings of an egomaniacal celebrity", paste it into a search box at http://www.google.com , and presto! The very first link leads you to the story on Salon.com's website. Second, as for "Wiki policy suggests we use neither cached information, nor use websites with advertising on their pages", the first part is demonstrably untrue as Misplaced Pages policy in fact instructs us how to locate cached information, for instance at web.archive.org, for appropriate use, and while Misplaced Pages policy disrecommends pages that seem to exist primarily for the sake of their advertising, to blindly overgeneralize that to all websites with advertising on their pages is just frankly a ludicrous reading which two seconds' critical thinking would have disposed of. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Quite a lot of invective talk for something that you say you could have solved in 2 seconds. Any reason you wouldn't be unwilling to tone down such personal comment to a mild roar? Terryeo 23:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

While I think Antaeus would do well to dial back his invective a bit, I understand his exasperation: the article is fine, from a reputable source, with advertising of a type that is pretty standard in a large commercial newspaper or magazine site (like the New York Times or the Los Angeles Times, for example). Terryeo, you've made a crusade of telling people how Misplaced Pages links should favor such corporate enterprises over small-scale non-profit ("personal") websites. Bear in mind that if the presence of advertising were to disqualify sites from being linked, sites like dianetics.org would also be quick to go. As to the link to the Misplaced Pages article about Salon.com, I agree with Terryeo--I don't understand why that link is there: it isn't the usual practice to link to the Misplaced Pages article about the publication an article appears in, is it? BTfromLA 01:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

In references? Sure it is. That way, if people want more information about where a story is coming from, and Misplaced Pages has that information, it can be accessed easily. To give an example that happened to me just yesterday, I had a news story from The Arizona Republic and I was wondering whether that was a small-town newspaper with all that implies. Turns out it's the largest newspaper in the state. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember seeing that much. Maybe I just never noticed. I see that Salon and The Washington Post are so linked in this article, but the others are not. Is there a style guideline about that? It seems like the sort of thing that benefits from regularization--some publication names linking to the cited article, some linking to the Wikiarticle, some unlinked... seems confusing. Do you suggest that a similar link go to book publishers (e.g. Henry Holt) as well? BTfromLA 16:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistency?

... In a lecture called Aberration and the Fifth Dynamic, Hubbard stated:

"...take a sheet of glass and put it in front of the preclear -- clear, very clear glass -- which is supercooled, preferably about a -100 centigrade. You got that? Supercooled, you know? And then put the preclear right in front of this supercooled sheet of glass and suddenly shove his face into the glass. Now, that's pretty good. I mean, that was developed about five billion years ago by a whole-track psychiatrist ..... The mechanism of brainwashing which I gave you, with supercold mechanisms and so forth, is very well known, was used very extensively in the Maw Confederation of the Sixty-third Galaxy. They had a total psychiatric control of all of their officers and executives, and when they got tired of them they used this specific method of brainwashing." (Hubbard, Aberration and The Sixth Dynamic transcript, catalog #5611C13 15ACC-22)

Note: Bold is mine --69.143.122.238 00:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation. sixth and not fifth, according a lecture given in Nov. 1956 at the 15th Advanced Clinical Course Terryeo 00:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Creationists"

The paragraph, Hubbard's views on psychiatry were remarkably similar, in many respects, to those of modern-day creationists towards the theory of evolution. A common creationist claim is that their opponents are bound by an inherently atheistic and immoral cult of scientific materialism and evolutionary philosophy either partially or wholly responsible for the ideological structures of modern social movements and governments which, they claim, promoted racism, sexism, eugenics, and genocide. In particular, it is often claimed that Nazism and Marxism-Leninism were inspired by evolutionary theory. Modern-day problems such as violence in schools, the breakdown of the nuclear family and social problems such as drug abuse are also laid at the door of evolutionary teaching in schools. references to a piece about creationism. The paragraph was placed into the article by User:ChrisO on 29Aug2006. The article states User:ChrisO's personal opinion that Hubbard's views on psychiatry have similarities to "creationists". User:ChrisO does not provide us with any primary source for this stunning information (except himself). He does not provide us with any secondary source, either. Nor any tertiary source. User:ChrisO opines that Hubbard's views on psychiatry are similar to "creationist'" views. I for one say that is orginal research by User:ChrisO. To substantiate my statement anyone need only follow the link User:ChrisO thoughtfully provides. It says nothing at all about User:ChrisO. Neither does it say anything about Hubbard. Nor about Scientolgy. Nor about Psychiatry. It does some something about Creation. Perhaps it belongs in a differnet article? Perhaps User:ChrisO actually meant to place this in a different article? Terryeo 08:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like source-based research to me. I'm not surprised that you can't recognize it as such, since you have in the past tried to claim that Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science was "original research". By the way, I'm still waiting for you to provide some proof for your assertion that I have created more articles in the "Scientology Series" than anyone. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hubbard says x, y and z (all referenced). Creationists say x, y and z too (also referenced). Observing that both parties say x, y and z is thus a simple factual observation based on referenced sources. -- ChrisO 19:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Your paragraph introduces a conclusion. If you wished your paragraph to present that Creationists say X, Hubbard says X. Creationists say Y, Hubbard says Y. Creationists say Z, Hubbard says Z. Then you could enter that into the article. That is not what you presented. As you have stated it there is the introduction of a conclusion. In fact, you begin your paragraph with a conclusion and then attempt to convince the reader of your conclusion. Should you wish to introduce your personal conclusion then you would need to produce point by point statements from both parties which agreed strongly with each other. On each point. Then it would be appropriate to make statements about inferences of the pre-stated statements of both parties. The reason why is this, I see his statements as vastly different, each point, X, Y, and Z, than you do. You can not expect the average reader to follow all of the points and immediately understand your Original Research Conclusion. It is beyond WP:V, it is well into WP:NOR to post what you have posted. Terryeo 20:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

What's the point? Hubbard came first. If aliens or creationists mimic his words, so what? What's the point, why introduce the arguement at all? Terryeo 00:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Psychiatry is forced back yet one more step

U.S. SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS STATES' RIGHTS TO EXCLUDE PSYCHIATRIC TESTIMONY IN INSANITY DEFENSE CASES states the CCHR website], citing a recent Supreme Court decision which stated: a psychiatrist or psychologist is no more qualified than any other person to give an opinion about whether a particular defendant's mental condition satisfies the legal test for insanity. Terryeo 02:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Scientology - A Question of Faith: Did A Mother's Faith Contribute To Her Murder? 48 Hours, CBS News. AndroidCat 03:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

'Cat's suggested article suggests that Jeremy Perkins who had just stabbed his mother 77 times was not responsible for his actions. The article suggest that had Jeremy Perkins seen a psychiatrist, he would be a well adjusted, happy person today and would not have commited murder. Some years ago psychiatry had more power than it has today. In those days any legally recognized clergyman, + any law officer + any relative could have a person commited and immediatedly drugged with psychiatric drugs so they were not available for questioning, statement or comment. I for one, am glad to see psychiatry become less powerful. Now, if we can get psychiatric drugs off the market whose side effects include propensity to suicide we will be well ahead. Terryeo 21:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, Terryeo's famous claims about the infamous days of '1 clergyman + 1 law officer + 1 relative = instant commitment and probable skullduggery with the will just like in that 30's movie'. I'd really like to see him back up that claim but, well, those who wait to see Terryeo back up any of his claims are generally disappointed. I'm not even going to touch the line about 'We will all be "well ahead" if we manage to ban a drug which has a bad side effect; it doesn't matter how rare the side effect is or how many people who would have benefitted from the drug will now be deprived of its effect.' By Terryeo's logic we should all be working to ban peanut butter -- who cares that for most people it is a wholesome and nutritious food, we have to take it off the market entirely because of the small minority who are allergic to it! -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, it should be noted that the talk pages of articles are for discussing the edits, not as a chat room or a place to vent. Since Terryeo cannot edit the articles, I have to question what point there is for him to constantly chime in with these personal opinions that do not relate directly to specific edits. To come here and post a header called "Psychiatry is forced back yet one more step" is soapboxing and trolling of the highest (lowest?) order, and it really needs to stop. wikipediatrix 02:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed; inappropriate and almost amounts to trolling. --Justanother 02:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I told Terryeo sometime ago that Misplaced Pages was not the place for a jihad. I guess he believes otherwise.--Fahrenheit451 08:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)