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== Enforcing administrator discussion – Debresser == == Enforcing administrator discussion – Debresser ==
{{hat|Debresser formally warned. ]] 17:38, 23 October 2018 (UTC)}}

===Opening statement by AGK=== ===Opening statement by AGK===
I am raising this topic separately to request views from colleagues about the use of enforcement processes by {{u|Debresser}}. I am raising this topic separately to request views from colleagues about the use of enforcement processes by {{u|Debresser}}.
Line 79: Line 79:
*I am enforcing as follows: *I am enforcing as follows:
:{{Ivmbox|1=On a number of occasions, {{u|Debresser}} has improperly presented requests for arbitration enforcement. Taken as a pattern, Debresser's actions are an abuse of process that is serving to inflame tensions in topic areas that already are heated. Furthermore, whilst Misplaced Pages process pages are internal, conduct such as abuse of process itself, indirectly, affects the external topic area that is subject to arbitration enforcement. Conduct such as Debresser's is therefore equivalent in seriousness to ] of content pages. I therefore '''formally warn''' Debresser that continuing such conduct will result in enforcement action, such as restrictions from requesting enforcement, blocks, and topic bans.}}<p>This action will be logged as an enforcement action for future reference. ]] 17:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC) :{{Ivmbox|1=On a number of occasions, {{u|Debresser}} has improperly presented requests for arbitration enforcement. Taken as a pattern, Debresser's actions are an abuse of process that is serving to inflame tensions in topic areas that already are heated. Furthermore, whilst Misplaced Pages process pages are internal, conduct such as abuse of process itself, indirectly, affects the external topic area that is subject to arbitration enforcement. Conduct such as Debresser's is therefore equivalent in seriousness to ] of content pages. I therefore '''formally warn''' Debresser that continuing such conduct will result in enforcement action, such as restrictions from requesting enforcement, blocks, and topic bans.}}<p>This action will be logged as an enforcement action for future reference. ]] 17:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
{{hab}}


==ScienceApe== ==ScienceApe==

Revision as of 17:38, 23 October 2018

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    Enforcing administrator discussion – Debresser

    Debresser formally warned. AGK ■ 17:38, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Opening statement by AGK

    I am raising this topic separately to request views from colleagues about the use of enforcement processes by Debresser.

    1. In #VanEman, immediately above, Debresser cited two diffs that were around 27 hours apart – and requested enforcement of a 1RR (one revert per 24 hours) general sanction. To be clear, I have recommended enforcement action in that case – but only as a result of different diffs of user conduct which I came across during a review of the request.
    2. In #Nableezy, above, a meritless request for enforcement was submitted.
    3. Nishidani, enforcement requested August 2018, was again closed without action.

    I am concerned in general at an increasing use of AE for reprisal – and, in this case, at a scattergun or careless approach to enforcement requests. AGK ■ 21:37, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Debresser

    I would only like to say that in my point of view, both Nishidani and Nableezy have behavioral problems, and are moderately disruptive from time to time. The fact that this forum has decided that there were no grounds for action, does not mean that there were no grounds for my reports. Just like in real life, not all court cases end in convictions.
    I noticed that AGK is worried about "reprisal". May I remind you that it is me, who was reported here a week ago in a clear attempt at reprisal. I myself do not have such inclinations. In addition, please feel free to research the issue, and you shall see that there simply was nothing that could have provoked me to seek reprisal. Specifically regarding VanEman, I hadn't seen him in over a year, and even that was not in the IP-conflict area. Debresser (talk) 18:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
    Most, if not all, ArbCom restrictions, like ARBPIA, include a clause about proper behavior in the spirit of community editing, not to mention decorum. Most of my reports were not about straightforward violations (like my last report regarding VanEman, which was accepted). They were specifically about editors' behavior, as in long-time patterns: editors using derogatory language (Nishidani and Nableezy), editors being pushy and ignoring the opinions of other editors (Nableezy). And in all my reports there have been admins (and certainly non-admins) who have said that there is some truth about the issues I reported, just that it is not actionable. Please check that.
    So a warning about what? Not to report edits that are not actionable? How can an editor know beforehand what ArbCom will deem actionable or not? Especially since were are talking about discretionary actions.
    By ruling time and again that there were no violations, ArbCom has effectively decided to ignore Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3#Tendentious editing, which reads "Users who disrupt the editing of articles by engaging in sustained aggressive point-of-view editing and edit-warring may be banned from the affected articles". However, it would be completely unfair to propose to sanction the editor, who tries in good faith to uphold the rule that this forum has itself instituted. Or does ArbCom want to remove that point from its decision now? Debresser (talk) 06:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
    In reply to Huldra's comment In that WP:ANI discussion too, all commenting editors agreed that Huldra's edits were problematic, just that the closing editor decided it is a content issues, and not actionable at WP:ANI. How using misleading edit summaries is a content issue, I don't understand till this day. Debresser (talk) 06:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
    In reply to Kurtis' mention of a January report of mine I can't believe you really try to hold that report against me. We all know that trying to game the system by waiting a little over 24 hours is actionable! I was sanctioned not long before that for an edit I made after 1d3h. In view of that fact, you have to admit that at least the report wasn't unreasonable. (Especially galling was that the very same admin who sanctioned me for my revert after 1d3h refused to see as a violation Nishidani's edit after 1d5h. IMHO that was a biased decision, and not one of ArbCom's better moments.) Debresser (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

    Question

    @Kurtis Is this sequence of edits the kind of report that would be too broadly interpreting WP:ARBPIA3? Or is that reserved for "sustained aggressive point-of-view editing and edit-warring" only? Debresser (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    @Roland What is disruptive about this section? It needs to be clear if Kurtis proposes reporting a straightforward WP:ARBPIA3 violation is acceptable, and wants a restriction only regarding reporting "sustained aggressive point-of-view editing and edit-warring" (since that is obviously more prone to interpretation)? That is apart from the question if other admins will endorse his proposal. Debresser (talk) 17:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    @Roland And let's be honest, if this is indeed, as I think, a straightforward violation, then it will be very interesting to see if admins will have the moral integrity to act on it. Based on my experience with some of the admins here, I have my doubts. Debresser (talk) 17:41, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    @Nableezy In reply to this edit: October 22 18:50 - October 22 09:16 = 09:34 < 24h. QED. Debresser (talk) 17:44, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    @Nableezy In reply to these edits: You are right. Debresser (talk) 21:35, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Kurtis

    I've reviewed Debresser's reports to AE over the past two years. Apart from the ones mentioned by AGK, there's also (in reverse chronological order): Nishidani (January 2018), El_C (June 2017), Nishidani again (May 2017), and finally Nishidani (October 2016). Of these, the only one that resulted in a sanction for the reported party was the 2017 AE submission concerning Nishidani, with Sandstein implementing a one-month topic ban from Israel/Palestine articles – and even then, several commenters felt that the diffs provided were not actionable. There does seem to be a pattern here, albeit a sporadic one. The question is, does it warrant a sanction at this time? Or would a final warning be sufficient? Kurtis 19:22, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
    @Debresser: "How can an editor know beforehand what ArbCom will deem actionable or not?" – To tell you the honest truth, a lot of it just boils down to common sense. It's inevitable that some AE reports are going to end up as borderline cases, and the decision is usually determined by factoring in things like the editor's past history, the seriousness of the violation, whether they're making a good-faith effort to learn from their mistakes, etc. But there's also an expectation that the filing party will use good judgment in submitting a report. To give an example, in January of this year you reported Nishidani for violating a 1RR restriction. The two reverts you cited were, by your own description, over 24 hours apart. At the time, the two of you were engaged in a content dispute. Bringing the situation here made it look as though you were attempting to gain the upper hand. Whether you realize it or not, this is a common thread for many of the reports you've made to AE and ANI over the past few years.

    Your idea of what constitutes a violation is much, much broader than that of most people. Going forward, I think it would be a good idea for you to avoid making any AE reports that aren't clear-cut cases (e.g. an editor makes multiple reverts to a 1RR article in a single day), as well as ones in which you're an involved party. I also recommend that you get into the habit of using other avenues for dispute resolution rather than escalating tensions by immediately pursuing sanctions against other editors. You'll probably find it a lot easier to get things done when you begin to think of them as collaborators rather than antagonists. Kurtis 09:26, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Huldra

    Just a note: Debresser doesn't only report editors to AE, he also reports you to AN/I, last time he reported me there was in July 2017. (It was closed without any sanction), Huldra (talk) 22:13, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
    Nope. As I said at the time: I misread "2nd century BCE" for "2nd century CE". And Debresser, without giving me any opportunity to explain, took it straight to AN/I. As I said back then, drama much? (Also, it isn't the first time Debresser have dragged me to AN/I, with no result), Huldra (talk) 20:26, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Sir Joseph

    This page is not the right place for this discussion. Sir Joseph 18:04, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Serialjoepsycho

    These sanctions are set up as a destructive way to end disruption that has not been reasonably taken care of by other means. When sanctions are placed the situation is generally, "enough is enough". If this is becoming a game that is in itself highly disruptive. Everyone here is a volunteer, from editor to admin but we don't have a shortage of editors. The opinion however has been bumped around a time or two that we have a shortage of admins. Admins time aside we also don't want to run off good editors. If -insert any editors name- is coming here for retaliation or any nonsense then the appropriate action should be taken, what ever that may be. A warning, the stated purpose of this noticeboard, or some punitive action. Case by case due to the facts of the situation.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by RolandR

    Surely Debresser's latest comments above are a breach of his topic ban, and an an egregious example of IDHT behaviour, fully justifying the original post by AGK? RolandR (talk) 16:40, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Icewhiz

    @RolandR: - Debresser isn't under any topic ban, you should strike your assertion. Icewhiz (talk) 16:46, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Nableezy

    Uhh, Debresser, you claim the revert you made was undoing a "straightforward WP:ARBPIA3 violation". That kind of demonstrates the point that you have no idea what an ARBPIA3 violation is, the edit you reverted was emphatically not a revert. You just did a blanket revert without even a semblance of an explanation, and have as of yet declined to even pretend to justify it anywhere. You seem incapable of actually identifying what a revert is, in addition to the problem of understanding exactly how long 24 hours is. nableezy - 17:40, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Yeah, the problem there is my edit wasnt a revert. It doesnt touch what Shrike reverted at 06:16, 22 October 2018‎ UTC. That you bring it up here is yet another example of what this section is about. You bringing up totally and completely bogus "violations". nableezy - 18:22, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Discussion among uninvolved admins

    • Yes, we do see Debresser quite a lot here with, as far as I can recall, often non-actionable requests. I wouldn't object to a restriction against making new AE requests. Sandstein 11:40, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Because discussion among admins has died down and we are back to the usual unhelpful pattern of recriminations among involved editors, I'm closing this thread. Any admin remains free to take whatever action they deem appropriate. Sandstein 07:26, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Whether it is retaliatory or not, there is a clear pattern of poor/inappropriate reports to this noticeboard. I would prefer a strong warning however, with a restriction on AE requests if the problem continues. WJBscribe (talk) 12:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
    • I am enforcing as follows:

    On a number of occasions, Debresser has improperly presented requests for arbitration enforcement. Taken as a pattern, Debresser's actions are an abuse of process that is serving to inflame tensions in topic areas that already are heated. Furthermore, whilst Misplaced Pages process pages are internal, conduct such as abuse of process itself, indirectly, affects the external topic area that is subject to arbitration enforcement. Conduct such as Debresser's is therefore equivalent in seriousness to tendentious or disruptive editing of content pages. I therefore formally warn Debresser that continuing such conduct will result in enforcement action, such as restrictions from requesting enforcement, blocks, and topic bans.

    This action will be logged as an enforcement action for future reference. AGK ■ 17:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

    ScienceApe

    Science Ape is indefinitely topic banned from Elizabeth Warren for bludgeoning and unpleasantness on article talk and edit warring at the article. The user may appeal the ban no more frequently than every six months. (by User:Bishonen)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning ScienceApe

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Galobtter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:56, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    ScienceApe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBAPDS
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 21 October 2018 You're inability to understand a strawman fallacy reveals quite a bit of how low your IQ must be - personal attack
    2. 21 October 2018 Knock off the obvious biased white knighting - personal attack
    3. 21 October 2018 Stop with the idiotic strawmanning and white knighting first.; Oh you're the white knight etc - personal attacks
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    These personal attacks by itself show this editor needs a break from Elizabeth Warren (or a block) at the very least, but he has also engaged in edit warring (4 reverts in 30 hours), where he cried "synthesis" despite being explained how the source supports the sentence, and his conduct at the section shows self-evidently poor behaviour and ignoring what the sources are saying or people's responses. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:56, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning ScienceApe

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by ScienceApe

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning ScienceApe

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

    13zmz13

    Blocked for a week. Sandstein 11:21, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning 13zmz13

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:44, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    13zmz13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 11:53, 21 October 2018 editing an article clearly under WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 (see Talk:Shurat HaDin), in spite of only having 116 edits
    2. 11:55, 21 October 2018 same
    3. 12:25, 21 October 2018 same


    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
    • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
    • Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by Username (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
    • Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
    • Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I (and another editor) have tried to make 13zmz13 understand that they shouldn't edit the IP articles (see here), alas they seem to think that rules are only for lesser mortals than themselves. Huldra (talk) 20:44, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Notified, Huldra (talk) 20:48, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

    Discussion concerning 13zmz13

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by 13zmz13

    I have yet to receive even one iota of evidence that suggests Shurat HaDin is "related to the Arab-Israeli conflict"... 13zmz13 (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by Shrike

    Statement by RolandR

    Statement by Zero0000

    This article is about an Israeli organization that fights "Israel's enemies" (mostly Arabs and Iranians) by means of law suits. Of the law suits prominent enough for their own article sections, approximately 75% directly concern the Arab-Israeli conflict. So the claim by 13zmz13 that it doesn't know the article is "related to the Arab-Israeli conflict" is absolutely unbelievable. Even the specific section edited by 13zmz13 (most recently with an additional revert after this case was filed, also violating 1RR) concerns a law suit against "Palestinian solidarity activists". Please give this contempt for the truth the reception it deserves. Zero 10:47, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning 13zmz13

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Shurat HaDin is entirely related to the Arab-Israeli conflict because it describes an organization which deals primarily with legal issues related to that conflict. 13zmz13's conduct and insistence to the contrary is disruptive. 13zmz13 is blocked for a week. Sandstein 11:20, 22 October 2018 (UTC)