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:I'm not trying to solve the POV dispute in the PAIN I'm trying to clear my name and know that I'm not gagged t speak up my mind in honest and direct terms.
:I'm not trying to solve the POV dispute in the PAIN I'm trying to clear my name and know that I'm not gagged t speak up my mind in honest and direct terms.
:I'm also trying to gain some protection against Thulean's harassing and threats. --] 07:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
:I'm also trying to gain some protection against Thulean's harassing and threats. --] 07:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
::There is no reason to remove yourself from participating in dispute resolution - this is the proper way to solve your issues. I've asked you to stop labelling him a nazi and you've said you won't do it, so I really can't see what more you want done.
::I've pointed you to the specific wording in the policy that I feel you violated. Per the instructions on ], you're welcome to take this to the administrator's incident noticeboard if you feel its still not been resolved, but please do not continue readding cases to the personal attack noticeboard. Just because Durova understood where you got the label from doesn't give you license to repeatedly label another editor against his wishes to devalue his contributions. You did not say his editing was in line with nazi ideology, you called him a nazi - those are two very different things.
::Thulean can do nothing to block you so long as you're not doing anything block worthy. You've agreed not to continue calling him a nazi, so what more is there to worry over? The warning I gave was only about the nazi situation and doesn't mean that any mistake you make will automatically get you blocked. ] <sup>]</sup> 10:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for all of the warm wishes and generally nice thoughts sent in my direction. I have retired from all Wikimedia projects and turned in all my extra tools as a security measure (we all appreciate those now, don't we?). For those few of you who were disappointed at not getting a whole ton of gossip out of my explanation for leaving (and didn't think to ask me privately, duh) I can only offer this cartoon as penance. Best of luck to all of you and feel free to keep in touch (see above). Shell11:44, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
mini-RFC on usertalk...
Hi Shell. Is there any chance that you could nip across to User_talk:Cerebral_Warrior#A_Proposal_by_crazyeddie? There's no trouble to speak of there, but per the subsection comments on the proposal I'm a little concerned by it's venue. It's a good idea, and could be fruitful in putting a final resolution to the issue, but it seems badly placed in my opinion. If you agree, would it be possible for you to move the section to its own page somewhere and merge history for it? I've left a comment on WP:ANI but nobody seems to have been interested. Thanks Crimsone22:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm..that's a unique way to handle the userpage concern. I'm not sure it needs moved yet though; its harder to ignore your talk page than a subpage. This is rather new territory so it might be worth it to give it some time and see how it works out; it can always be archived or moved elsewhere later when there's a consensus to do so. Shell23:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
No problem Shell. It certainly is new territory. I'm just worried that it might be considered inappropriate. Of course, reading your opinion here does make me feel a little better about it I must say. I certainly agree with the sentiment as you just described it, and I guess it is worth seeing how it all works out :) I'll answer my comment on the page appropriately. Thanks :) Crimsone23:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
What's going to be really interesting is if Cerebral Warrior decides to remove it from his talk page. Either this is brilliant or its going to cause a serious problem and I'm just not sure which yet. Shell00:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, though I suspect that the offensive elements of the user page are going to get removed whichever way it happens - so in that respect it's certainly effective lol. To be honest, that would be the reason as much as anything that I wouldn't like to see a solid precedent from this in the future, although the idea itself is certainly on firm ground. Heck, it could even become the default process for userpage content issues, as it's certainly a quite tidy and fair way for a community to demonstrate it's desire over something. As I said though, the only thing that concerns me is that if the "new message" banner flashes up after every other edit, the user whos page is being discussed may opt to ignore it, making it inconvenient not just for the user, but for any user that needs to contack him/her. Either way, it's pretty fun to watch for now (oops, did I just say that? *naughty me* lol) Crimsone00:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that I had previously tagged the page Mina Khel as “Speedy Deletion” because the same was earlier (after reaching a consensus) "Redirected" to the parent article on Marwat. And it happened that you very graciously redirected the same. The User:A M. Khan has once again recreated the same page through another sock puppet and is also repeatedly vandalizing the page Marwat. He was earlier blocked by User:The JPS for some time but as soon as he came back to Misplaced Pages he has restarted this nonsense. We had a long war of vandalizing (by him) and restoring (by me) of the page Marwat. You can see it for yourself that he just wants to advertise his POV through Misplaced Pages. Please look into this matter, as I am once again tagging the page of Mina Khel with a speedy delete because being a Marwat myself, I know that there is no truth in what he is saying. As a matter of fact he had also tried to change the decision of Redirect to Keep on the same page and which I had also reverted earlier. You can also see this at the page history of Mina Khel. His other sock puppets are IP addresses 210.56.14.139 & 203.175.64.10, User:Lakki Marwat,and User:Ghazni Khel. I tried to warn him on his user page but he is still doing the same and laughing into my face. Since I am not an Admin yet therefore, it is my humble request to you to look into this matter and either block this person or stop this person from editing these pages. His other interests are to create pages for one Akhtar Munir Marwat, Anwar Kamal Khan, and Khan Habibullah Khan. I hope to see a befitting response from you. --Marwatt03:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll help keep an eye on the article - since consensus was to redirect, it should stay that way unless discussion determines otherwise. I've warned this new account Lakki Marwat about edit warring over the article. If you think that all these accounts are related and also using the IP addresses, I would suggest making a request at WP:RFCU to verify this which will allow us to deal with them as a whole and may lead to blocking several of the sockpuppets (if that's what this is). Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help. Shell03:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Spinoza1111's talk page
This user was banned indefinitely for his continued ranting and personal attacks of others. It was suggested that if he returned to rant on his talk page again that it should be protected. He has returned and has been ranting on his talk page here . Do you think you could protect his page? --Kf4bdy15:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Admin Coaching needs coaches!!! If you are an administrator, or even a generally experienced user, do consider signing up to be a coach.
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Make a justice yourself.
I am about whom, User:Marwatt brought so many complaints, that are mentioned above.
I have nothing to say more about saying that please make a justice yourself.
I am guilty for something, I affirm. But whatever I am editing in article Marwat is based upon reality, fact and a trueinformation. The User:Marwatt got some personal enmiy with the people, who I mention in the article. I just don't want that enmity to be brought-up here, as WP is not the property of Mr. USer:Marwatt. I have no more evidence of being a true one, except requesting you to make an enquiry yourself and make a justice by being a nuteral one. Also read USer:Addhoc's comment on USer:Marwatt, you will know the frustration of User:Marwatt at me, automatically.
A sincere and humble request: Please don't start helping one against another editor, untill unless you don't have dialogues with both parties. This may make one hopless and other an aggressive.
Please!
If your position in the edit war is correct, you should easily be able to provide sources on the discussion page of the article that support your position. You should also be adding these sources to the article when you re-write it. Edit warring and making multiple accounts to keep reverting is not a good idea; both can lead to getting you blocked from editing for the disruption you're causing. Look over our page on how to resolve disputes: WP:DR. Start by talking to User:Marwatt and coming to an agreement on your differences. If this doens't work, you may want to ask for a third-opinion to help resolve the dispute. The dispute resolution page also has other ideas on how to bring in more of the Misplaced Pages community to help resolve your differences. Shell23:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
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I think we have a new admin coaches chair, and that person is doing due diligence to touch base with all those involved in the program. I'm taking my sweet time learning this stuff, and dipping my toes in deep water (AfD, RfC, 3RR) from time to time. When I do, I seem to hold my own pretty well (rescued an article on my first try!). Will do such more often. I think I will apply for editor review, and then proceed with learning more. I've recently taken on Military Science task force, and have volunteered for volunteer coordination support in Wikimania 2007, so I'm gradually working into deeper water. I'm just not in any real hurry. I have a challenging career; family matters and improved personal writing have occupied priorities, and I'm still making good daily progress in this project. I plan to spend more time in Simple English once I get more established here. So I could see myself running sometime next year. BusterD13:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I have put myself up on editor review; if you'd like to provide feedback, I'd appreciate anything you might offer. Seems like a simple bar and a good foundation upon which to build. BusterD01:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
You are not being just
User Thulean is vandalizing, ignoring WP:POV and WP:CON and manipulating WP:Ettiquete to achieve these other goals. If I would have said he's a liberal or a communist or a tory, nobody would have said a word. But for some odd reason WP:Ettiquete protects people with a far-right ideology that are precisely those who most vandalize and in the most sophisticated manner. I am just stating the truth, and you should investigate if I am saying the truth or slandering him. It's not a matter of "name-calling". It's a matter of truth, honsety and protecting Misplaced Pages against vandalism and manipulation. --Sugaar22:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, another administrator has intervened in the dispute with a diferent attitude. You didn't post anything in the case but in my page. I'm assuming good faith and assuming you are in fact an administrator but I believe you should post your resolutions in the RFI relevant section too. Else it's quite confusing: for me, for you, for Durova and even for Thulean. --Sugaar23:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
No actually Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy doesn't allow those either. Please try to focus on the content and not the contributors. If you're having problems of that level, I hope you're using dispute resolution. In the meantime, try to be patient and avoid labelling other editors. I was not involved in an attempt to resolve the dispute. Shell12:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Other administrators don't think the same. I am appealing the warning. Please see relevant discussion in the corresponding RFI. --Sugaar12:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
There's not really anything to appeal. If other's don't think its a personal attack, that's fine. I'm just suggesting that you try not to let people get under your skin next time. Shell13:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
As I see it I've not let anyone get under my skin. My comments on Thulean's nazism, etc. are not anger-motivated not intended to cause a name-calling war or anything. They are just descriptive of his ideology. For me and other editors it's pretty objective. It's not intended as a personal attack but as merely descriptive term. If I used "liberal" or "nationalist" nobody would put any objection, specially if there are descriptive terms. Why some (particualrly disruptive) ideologies are specially protected? That's the question I asked in the talk page of WP:Etiquette, why objective description, honesty, calling things by its name... is punished?
Why racism has special protection? It's relevant to the discussion to point out that certain POVs are such. It's also relevant to the integrity of Misplaced Pages to denounce politically motivated disruption and unilateralism when it happens.
Thulean is playing victim. Have you even asked him if he feels offended? He doesn't. He has read the WPs, chosen the most convenient and claimed protection not against insults (that he doesn't feel as such) but denounce of his (well calculated) disruptive attitude. He's claiming special protection for his ideology - and using the text of WP:Etiquette to protect his ideology from scrutiny.
And yes: the warn needs to be reviewed. I don't dare even to initiate an RFI on him while under warn. I also feel harassed by his constant threats of "you'll be blocked" and I don't dare to expose these users' attitude on fear that I may actually be blocked.
In other circumstances, I'd be less fearful of disciplinary measures but I've just started with other editors and ethnic wikiproject and portal and I think I must be around to push them ahead.
I'd also intervene in other cases of racist manipulation of articles (see Caucasoid, for instance) but now I feel threatened by the Wikibureaucracy and don't dare to act.
So your hasty warning, ignoring the objectivity of my remarks, is causing disruption and helping vandalism. And needs to be reviewed. Don't tell me that I need to be blocked before I can initiate an appeal. I don't want to reach that point but rather prevent it.
So yes: there's something that needs review. Specially as other administrators seem to see no fault (or at least no clear fault) in my actions. --Sugaar16:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Can you point out what other administrators felt that labelling another editor and then continuing to use the term after they've complained is not a personal attack? Please note the policy we've been pointing you at WP:NPA specifically says: Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme. is a personal attack. The same page also mentions that its important to focus on the content and not the person who contributed it.
If you feel that another editor is pushing a POV or otherwise harming an article there are established methods to engage outside editors from the Misplaced Pages community to help resolve the problem. If you feel their behavior consistantly violates Misplaced Pages's guidelines, those same methods can be used to help resolve the problem. As a last resort, arbitration is available to impose enforcable sanctions and guidelines on editors.
The fact is that if you're not making personal attacks, you have nothing to fear. Someone could come along and warn me not to make personal attacks - since I try to avoid them, I wouldn't be concerned. I'm just asking that since he felt he needed to report you for consistantly ascribing his position to that of naziism, perhaps you could try not to use that term in the future and find another way to resolve your differences. Shell16:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I know about DR methods but I had to excuse myself from the ongoing Cabal because I feel I cannot express freely while your warn is in effect (still Thulean went to my user page and threatened me again with a block for that, when I have not used the forbidden words not gone even close to that - I've opened a new RFI for that). The matter of wether describing the ideological manipulations, consensus disruptions and POV pushing in clear terms is an insult is relevant beacuse I can't even speak (no matter what I say) without Thulean threatening me with a block (and that is probably scaring other editors as well).
I have also reopened the case against me that you so hastily archived because I feel it's not fully solved.
Durova clearly said (and you must have read it before your archived the case) that: I did a search on Yahoo and did find Nazi websites that use "Thulean" and "Thule" in their titles, so - strong as the statement from Sugaar was - it appears to be fact-based and valid. There are two sides to WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA that apply to this particular discussion: first, standards of civility at Misplaced Pages do not depend on what ideology an editor holds; second, discourse on certain sensitive topics may require the judicious use of terms that would otherwise be eschewed as hot button and inflammatory (such as when the topic at hand actually is Nazism and racism). This is obviously in contradition with your warning and that's why I reopened the case in hope that the situation is cleared up.
You say I have nothing to fear but I, and possibly other editors, are now in fear of Thulean's "lawyer" tactics. I can't describe his POV as racist and I can't denounce the obvious agenda that drives his unilateral actions (on what other respectable editors agree).
I'm not trying to solve the POV dispute in the PAIN I'm trying to clear my name and know that I'm not gagged t speak up my mind in honest and direct terms.
There is no reason to remove yourself from participating in dispute resolution - this is the proper way to solve your issues. I've asked you to stop labelling him a nazi and you've said you won't do it, so I really can't see what more you want done.
I've pointed you to the specific wording in the policy that I feel you violated. Per the instructions on WP:PAIN, you're welcome to take this to the administrator's incident noticeboard if you feel its still not been resolved, but please do not continue readding cases to the personal attack noticeboard. Just because Durova understood where you got the label from doesn't give you license to repeatedly label another editor against his wishes to devalue his contributions. You did not say his editing was in line with nazi ideology, you called him a nazi - those are two very different things.
Thulean can do nothing to block you so long as you're not doing anything block worthy. You've agreed not to continue calling him a nazi, so what more is there to worry over? The warning I gave was only about the nazi situation and doesn't mean that any mistake you make will automatically get you blocked. Shell10:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
banning Eric Lerner
Hi,
I'm not sure whether you are one of arbitrators involved in the "psedoscience" action, but if you are I'd like you to seriously look at the effort to ban me. I've summarized the situation on the "proposed decision" talk page.
I'm sorry I'm not an arbitrator. I would like to point out however that you have been rather disruptive to those pages, which is why, I believe, they are asking that you not edit them. There is nothing to prevent you from contributing your ideas to the talk pages though :) Shell16:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
gmail.com
