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*'''Support'''. ''Sadhguru'' is the ] over ''Jaggi Vasudev''. The big difference in Google searches as defined above speaks volumes. ], ], ], ], ], and other mainstream reliable sources refer him as "Sadhguru". <font color="red" face="Magneto" size="4"><b> ] </b></font><sup><font face="Script MT"> (]|]) </font></sup> 19:23, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. ''Sadhguru'' is the ] over ''Jaggi Vasudev''. The big difference in Google searches as defined above speaks volumes. ], ], ], ], ], and other mainstream reliable sources refer him as "Sadhguru". <font color="red" face="Magneto" size="4"><b> ] </b></font><sup><font face="Script MT"> (]|]) </font></sup> 19:23, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
:: As noted above, Google search result counts are highly problematic here. As for the news links, "Unplugged with Sadhguru" is a promotional video column. The others all note that the Sadhguru being spoken of is Jaggi Vasudev. HT is the only one in your examples that doesn't. There are plenty of links cited by other editors here which don't use "Sadhguru" at all or use "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev". The fact that this happens is sufficient to rule out that he is known in RS as "Sadhguru" alone.—] (]) <small>(please <u>ping</u> when replying)</small> 10:23, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
==Redirect Sadhguru like Sadguru to ]==
==Redirect Sadhguru like Sadguru to ]==
Revision as of 10:23, 2 November 2018
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In my opinion this section isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. PhilKnight (talk) 8:33 am, 6 March 2010, Saturday (8 years, 7 months, 24 days ago) (UTC+5.5)
I strongly agree. Boromir123 (talk) 8:40 am, 6 March 2010, Saturday (8 years, 7 months, 24 days ago) (UTC+5.5)
Jaggi Vasudev → Sadhguru – Article has recently been boldly moved because Sadhguru is supposedly a title rather than a name. However, nearly all sources that are mentioned in the references mention "Sadhguru" instead of to "Jaggi Vasudev" so Sadhguru serves apparently as the common name. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 20 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.В²C☎18:05, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Oppose I was the person who performed the aforementioned move. I was, however, undoing another bold move made in August. Re: Marcocapelle's point about nearly all sources that are mentioned in the references mention "Sadhguru" instead of to "Jaggi Vasudev", this is mainly due to an editor doing a find and replace on October 1 which also changed the citation titles. Sadhguru is an honorific. FWIW, this article is currently a puff piece and not neutral at all. See also: my merge request over at Isha Foundation, a lot of which has been duplicated here.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:30, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Update: Since there are editors supporting this move, let me expand:
Sadhguru is an innnacurate transliteration of सद्गुरु or "good guru". A correct transliteration would be Sadguru (which redirects on Misplaced Pages to Satguru, something of a Hindi variant). Considering Jaggi Vasudev's international market, Sadguru is liable to be misread and mispronounced as "Sad Guru" which is likely what led to the use of Sadhguru. Jaggi's Hindi article correctly uses सद्गुरु (Sadguru) rather than सध्गुरु (Sadhguru).
There are and have been thousands of people in history who are considered Sadgurus and named using the honorific. As Satguru attests, Kabir is often addressed with a combination (or subset thereof) involving "Sant Samrat Satguru Kabir Sahib". The website of one of his "dhams" is at sadgurukabirprakatyadhamlahartaravaranasi.com. There is the contemporary Shri Sadguru Seva Sangh Trust (SSSST) aka the Sadguru Trust which refers to a Sadguru named Param Pujya Shri Ranchhoddasji Maharaj. Incidentally, this Sadguru is also known as "Gurudev" which also refers to another contemporary godman, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, i.e., Ravi Shankar (spiritual leader) as well as Rabindranath Tagore and many others and often used as an honorific prefix. A cursory look through Misplaced Pages unearthed these other Sad(h)gurus:
* Vihangamyoga: "Vihangam Yoga is an ancient meditation technique practiced by Indian seers and sages. In the current time, it is established by Sadguru Sadafaldeo Ji Maharaj."
This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of people referred to as Satguru or Sadguru and prefixed with these terms listed on Misplaced Pages alone. In other words, Satguru and Sadguru are honorifics and the variant, Sadhguru should be treated as the same. Even if otherwise, current news articles still routinelyrefer to Jaggi Vasudev without mentioning "Sadhguru", and if they do mention the title, they clarify which Sadguru they are talking about in the body. Furthermore, the use of the term has been popularised only recently. Anecdotally, old reports rarely insisted on the term. This 2001 interview with Vasudev quotes him saying, ‘I drive my own car, people still call me by my first name. I don’t act like a heavenly being. What else can I do to make it normal?’ asks Jaggi Vasudev.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 11:56, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
One of those is a book by his follower (who would refer to her guru solely by his title). The other two are duplicates of each other. I thought my revert would clarify your point about "nearly all sources"; compare mentions of Jaggi Vasudev in the reference section before and after my revert earlier today to get an idea.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 19:23, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Move Sadhguru seems to be the comonly used name, not just by his followers but by global bodies also. See UN's program schedule (pdf) & UN Environment (which ironically links back to this wiki page). Some examples from news: , . And some examples from institutions: London Science Museum, Harvard Keynote Talk. Also, the fact that the word Sadhguru is an honorific shouldn't come in the way of the move. The original move was performed as per Commonly Used Name policy because most people know him as Sadhguru not Jaggi Vasudev. When people call him Sadhguru, they are not using the word as an honorific but more as a name for the person. Madrasiman (talk) 16:45, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
And here are the promotional links for the UN, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, and Rice calling him "Jaggi Vasudev" or "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev". Similar news articles are listed in many other comments in this RM. And when people call him "Sadhguru" they are using the honorific else they, news articles, and even his own organisations would not be referring to him largely as "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev" if not "Jaggi Vasudev".—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:00, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Those statistics are up to you to document here along with the necessary caveats to support your claim that "Sadhguru" is Jaggi Vasudev's name. Jaggi Vasudev has been the title of this article from October 2006; the burden is on you to prove otherwise. And IMO, your contention is incorrect. Re: the one book that you've mentioned: while Arundhati Subramaniam's book was (published by Penguin) can be used as a source for this article, she also happens to be his disciple. IOW, Jaggi Vasudev is her guru, her Sadguru. She is incidentally also his co-author in other books, a ghost writer, if you will. Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:58, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
67k results in Google news for "Sadhguru" and 17k results for "Jaggi Vasudev". Though the results comparison on Google books and normal Google search shows bigger difference between these two names. Since "Jaggi Vasudev has been the title of this article from October 2006", it is obvious that many results on Google for "Jaggi Vasudev" are just mirroring Misplaced Pages. Raymond3023 (talk) 16:21, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
This is why I mentioned "Google news", which reports only those things that were covered by news sites than social networking and other unreliable sites. Raymond3023 (talk) 16:58, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Please provide a link or a screenshot for this. Google News does not display result counts for me. Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 14:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Oppose I note that the subject and his followers like to call him Sadhguru which is indeed a WP:Honorific, his twitter account and websites etc use the same, which explains Google hits, But Mainstream media still uses his name "Jaggi Vasudev" . For Example this book in its intro says "This is the extraordinary story of Jaggi Vasudev or Sadhguru". It does not state "This is the extraordinary story of Sadhguru or Jaggi Vasudev" or "This is the extraordinary story of Sadhguru". Note the order of the mention of the two names here, which comes first and which second. It is a good example to judge the common name by this intro. I think This article should continue to stay at Jaggi Vasudev.--DBigXrayᗙ16:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
How mainstream news and scholarly sources can be defined as "subject and his followers"? That seems to be in alphabetical in order, but the book title is "Sadhguru" and so should be our article. This is the only website (an unreliable source) that calls him "Jaggi Vasudev", rest calls him "Sadhguru" while some calls him "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev". That is entirely opposite to WP:COMMONNAME which requires more hits in reliable sources. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Raymond, you have to understand that he has an Entire Public Relations department handling his PR, much of what you find online will also be a part of his PR, it becomes very difficult to sperate what is a PR vs what is non PR. I just pointed an observation that should help us in deciding. If you want to base your opinions on material related to his PR excercise, it is entirely your choice, and does not reflect the reality but just your opinion. The reliable media Either uses Full name including honorifics or just uses Jaggi Vasudev in its content.--DBigXrayᗙ17:18, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Comment. Yesterday, I found this discussion listed in the WP:RM backlog and closed it, finding a consensus to move Jaggi Vasudev to Sadhguru: Consensus is that Sadhguru (with the h) is used as a common name for this person and is not an honorific spelled this way in reference to this particular person. Subsequently, it was brought to my attention that despite being in the backlog, discussion here was still active. Indeed, a comment had been made about three hours prior to my close. I had not noticed that when I closed (my apologies for that), and so now have decided to revert my close to allow discussion to continue, and am relisting the request.
That said, I urge participants to recognize that nobody here is suggesting WP:HONORIFIC be ignored in this case; the issue is whether Sadhguru (with an h) is an honorific, or, if it is an honorific but (with the h) used exclusively to refer to this one person and so strongly associated with him that HONORIFIC allows it be used as article title, or should allow it. Again, this issue looked settled to me, but I see no harm in allowing discussion to continue. If I were participating I would want to see evidence showing that Sadhguru (with an h) is or is not used as an honorific for other persons, which name is used most commonly in reliable English sources, etc. --В²C☎18:05, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm posting my argument against this here rather than adding to my earlier reply which apparently very few read.
As detailed in my primary reply, there are plenty of Sadgurus in India, both past and present. Sadhguru and Sadguru are homophonous in India. A not insignificant number of people and sources spellVasudev'stitle as Sadguru. There are also sources that spell it Satguru. That said, Sadhguru is the more prevalent spelling for this Sadguru by far. But it explains how these variants are all treated synonymously. (Incidentally, most local language sources and media transliterate his title as Sadguru.)
Yes, Sadguru and its variants are honorifics as explained in my primary reply. Sadhguru is also Jaggi Vasudev's honorific. The use of honorifics in titles violates WP:NCINDIC. If "Sadhguru" were his new mononym and a commonname understood by all, then he would largely be referred to in reliable sources only as "Sadhguru". On the contrary, when his title is usedinreliablesources, it is commonly collocated before his name as "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev". Similarly, when sources only useSadhguru in the headline, the article itself clarifies which Sadhguru is being talked about by giving his full name. Many also refer to him as "the Sadhguru". These are indicative of its honorific nature and its inefficacy as a COMMONNAME on its own.
Jaggi Vasudev's Padma Vibhhushan in 2017 is noted prominently in this article's lede. The Ministry of Home Affairs notification officially credits the recipient of this award as "Sadhguru Jagadish Vasudev, Spiritualism, Tamil Nadu". If you correlate this entry with the adjacent ones, you will find that "Sadhguru" is being used as a title. (Jaggi is short for Jagadish.)
The COMMONNAME in reliable sources argument: Google classifies (1, 2) news related to Jaggi Vasudev under the topic "Jaggi Vasudev" rather than "Sadhguru" or even "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev". As outlined by others, newsarticlescontinue to refer to him as JaggiVasudev or as Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev. As before, when they do use only "Sadhguru" in the headline, they elaborate in the body to indicate which Sadhguru they are talking about. Note also that the use of his title particularly in headlines is a relatively recent phenomenon. You can see the change by browsing this archive backwards.
To conclude, "Sadhguru" is an honorific. But it is not this subject's common name. One could argue that "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev" is the common name, but that implicitly admits that Sadhguru is an honorific and therefore, violates WP:NCINDIC. Jaggi Vasudev is the subject's common name as well as his actual name. It has also been this article's title since 2006 and should remain so. Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 14:33, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Comment in continuation of my Oppose vote above, I find that it is wrongly been claimed that Sadhguru is his most COMMONLY used name. This is not true. The subject is still commonly known as Jaggi Vasudev in the reliable mainstream media. BBC called Jaggi Vasudev, Express UK called "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev".The word Sadhguru comes from "Satya" (truth) and (Guru) teacher, so it actually means, True Teacher, (as opposed to lots of Fake teachers out there). And it is interesting that This person likes to use the word for himself, kind of self glorification I would say. В²C In South Indias regional languages, it is quite common to add an extra h to Hindi words that have the letter t, So Satguru becomes a Sathguru/sadhguru. Sadhguru is actually a common name for Indian Gurus or spiritual leaders. Using this word to exclusively refer to Jaggi Vasudev is also inappropriate. Gnanananda Giri is another such example, he is popularly known as Sadguru Sri Gnanananda but our article does not mention Sadguru in the title. --DBigXrayᗙ14:32, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I remain neutral. We can find plenty of examples of sources using either name but not the other to refer to this person, but the relevant question is which is used most often to refer to him?. To that end, it's interesting to WP:GOOGLETESTsadhguru -vasudev and vasudev -sadhguru for which I get 6.3M and 4M hits respectively, suggesting sadhguru is the most common. Unless, some of those references to sadhguru are not to this person, but I've yet to find a single such example. --В²C☎18:25, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
FYI, Vasudev is a commonly found name in this country and makes that comparison rather pointless. Anyhow, as noted in my spiel, you should also be considering both "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev" and "Sadhguru" and "Jaggi Vasudev" which indicate that the term is being used as an honorific. This however does not really solve the current problems inherent with Google searches for such comparisons. This is because:
Google search might return a result count, but you can only browse an insignificant percentage of them. AFAICT, you are limited to 10–11 pages or 100–110 results. There are similar limitations for Bing, Duckduckgo, etc. So you can't really check if there are false positives. Even in the first link you have provided, what I see is that the last 2 pages (i.e., 9, 10) are essentially full of links from shaded.davemejiamasonry.com.
Google also considers and returns results in Indic languages although this might be region-dependant. And again, as noted in my spiels, when Jaggi Vasudev's title is transcribed into Hindi, it becomes सद्गुरु (i.e., Sadguru) or even सतगुरु (Satguru). IOW, Google also returns results for Sadguru and this includes all the Sadgurus and Satgurus out there as well as use of the word in songs and other media quite unrelated to any guru in particular. For example, page 8 of your search lists this page as it contains the song: तेरे चरणों में सतगुरु मेरी प्रीत हो भजन लिरिक्स (tere charanon mein satguru meri preet ho bhajan lyrics).
As noted above, Google search result counts are highly problematic here. As for the news links, "Unplugged with Sadhguru" is a promotional video column. The others all note that the Sadhguru being spoken of is Jaggi Vasudev. HT is the only one in your examples that doesn't. There are plenty of links cited by other editors here which don't use "Sadhguru" at all or use "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev". The fact that this happens is sufficient to rule out that he is known in RS as "Sadhguru" alone.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:23, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Once the above RM is done there should be some discussion whether Sadhguru, which is only a spelling variant, should like Sadguru go to Satguru with a hatnote. Note that the Kannada spelling of Sadhguru does not even redirect to this guru on Kannada wikipedia, nor in Hindi hi:सद्गुरु, nor Tamil. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:49, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Agree In South Indias regional languages, it is quite common to add an extra h to Hindi words that have the letter t, So Satguru becomes a Sathguru/sadhguru. Satguru should be a redirect target for Sadhguru. but because of Jaggi Vasudev, I am open to making Sadhguru a disambiguation page for the same. --DBigXrayᗙ14:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Are there any examples from reliable English sources using Sadhguru in place of Sadguru in a context that does not refer to Jaggi Vasudev? Any? Even if there are a few, if the vast majority of the uses of Sadhguru in reliable English sources refer to Jaggi Vasudev, then Sadhguru must at a minimum be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to the article about him, as it currently is, and, barring the production of evidence to the contrary, should remain that way (if the above proposal is rejected). --В²C☎17:42, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
B2c asked "examples from reliable English sources". What you provided is an unreliable outdated source, not relevant to the subject. Raymond3023 (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Disagree. A reader searching for Sadhguru is most likely looking for information about this person, not about the term. As a starting point, this comparison of pageviews shows that Satguru is not a page with much traffic compared to Sadhguru & Jaggi Vasudev. If people searching for Sadhguru were expecting to go to Satguru rather than the current page, then after being redirected to this page, they would very likely do another search on Misplaced Pages or Google or wherever for Satguru or Sadguru etc. That would lead to far more views on the Satguru page than there are currently. I'm not claiming this is a comprehensive analysis but redirecting Sadhguru to Satguru certainly makes no sense in the absence of more substantial evidence. Regstuff (talk) 06:34, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Done: I have made the correction. Thank you --NicoScribe (talk) 09:08, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Agree In South Indias regional languages, it is quite common to add an extra h to Hindi words that have the letter t, So Satguru becomes a Sathguru/sadhguru. Satguru should be a redirect target for Sadhguru. but because of Jaggi Vasudev, I am open to making Sadhguru a disambiguation page for the same. --DBigXrayᗙ 14:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)