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Revision as of 10:55, 9 November 2006

Indo-Europeans?

Pretty interesting while here Hephthalites are linked to Huns and at the Huns section, Huns are claimed to be Turkic origin. So, Hephthalites are Turkic origin or Indo-European? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.243.239.74 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 27 June 2006 66.243.239.74 (UTC)

Hephthalites were composed of three ethnic units. One (Xiyon) is of undetermined ethnicity, one (Uar) was surely proto-mongolic, and their ruling (Haital) clans were indisputably Indo-European.86.138.184.12 10:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup request

Statements with question marks in the article need to be resolved. -- Beland 09:48, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I am no expert but I have spent the last 15 years researching the origins and effects of the Hephthalites (I have been too busy on this to look at their fate yet). But my time is limited, so I can only do a little at a time. Also it will be difficult because people editing with a little knowledge in between my edits can be worse than people editing with no knowledge. E.G. Linguistic affiliation has no baring on physical appearance -a nation can look more mongoloid than anything else and yet speak an indo-european toungue. E.G. Info gleamed from coinage can be a good guide, assuming the coin cataloguer really knows what he/she dealing with and isn't just in it for the business and can't tell the difference between Kushan, Kidarite, Hephthalite, Alchon, Nezak, Uar, and Hunas.

This gentlman makes a good attempt to surmise. http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html but is not free from mistakes and generalizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.116.86 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Category?

Should this be in Category:Huns? It is now, but I'm not sure that's correct, since the White Huns were not necessarily Huns per se. --Saforrest 15:18, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Hephthalite may have been Hazaras ancestors

Hazara ethnic people of Afghanistan were unknown to the world before because of Pashton suppression on them in last 200 years. and they were completly kept in dark, and they are still unkown to the world.

Hazara people has a very rich distint culture from other people in Afghanistan. They are proud, talented, hardworker and trusthworthy. There are claims that they are descendents of Gengis khan army, i beleive that is completly wrong and baseless. When Gengis khan arrived in Bamiyan in 12 century, Bamiayn locals resisted fiercley. The people of Bamiyan were like central asian as like Hazara looks at that time.

There are claims Hephthalite were Tajiks. Tajiks people distint come to existince in 10 century. How could they have been rulers in at that time. The same area were controled by Kushans. Then persian sassanid moved in and destroyed kushan empire in 2AD century. Tajiks of Tajikistan and Afghanistan are those who come in central asia with persian empire expansion over centuries.

Hazara people sites

http://www.hazara.net

http://www.hazaristan.net

http://www.hazara.org

http://www.hazaraworld.com

http://www.hazarapress.com

http://www.hazaristan.net

http://www.hazaragiradio.com

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaghouri (talk • contribs) 14:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

hazaras are a mongolian people who settled in afghanistan during the mongol invasions. they have no connection to the hephthalites.Khosrow II 14:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Khosrow, Hazaras are commonly known to be monglolian. Thats was evil British proganda tool against Hazara people. British installed monarchy in Afghanistan and waged war through monarchy against other ethnic groups in Afghanistan. As a result Hazara who were making 67% of total Afghanistan population, lost 60% of their population and lost lots of their land. It is started about 150 years to this day Hazaras and Pashtuns are bitter enemy in Afghanitan.

Another thing you should remember when Gengis khan arrived in Bamyan, Hazaristan capital, mongol armies faced fierce resistance and Gengis Khan grandon killed there. Gengis Khan ordered the city to be completly destroyed. The residents of Bamyan had also asian looks like mongols at the time before mongol arrival. No other ethnic group inhabit there with asian look at the region except Hazara people.

visit this website to understand more about Ethnic groups sttruggle in Afghanistan in the last 250 years: http:// — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaghouri (talk • contribs) 06:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Its true, the Pashtun are actually the descendants of the Persians according to linguistics. Kaz 15:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Some historian claims Pashtun are descendets of Lost Tribes of Isreal. It may be true when you consider them in their behaviour. Pashtun are very relegious, backward etc.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.186.1.192 (talk • contribs) 06:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you trying to say? Kaz 18:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Search for Pashtuns origins on the net, you will find half historians claiming Pashtuns to be ancestors of lost tribes of Isrealets and other half of the historians claim Pashtuns to be of Aryan race. Have a throughly look at Pashtun life and culture in this day, it will give you an idea where really they come from. Iranians claim to be from Aryan race, It is hardly belevieble to accept Pashtuns and Persians as one race.

Hazaras are most likely descendant of Mongols (there is nothing wrong with as I know many Hazaras and they are the best people I have met). But Hephtalites were not Hazaras. Also Pashtuns are a separate Iranian group and not necessary persian (tajiks). They speak Eastern Iranian language. There are some recent evidences that support Hephtalites being Pashtun. --alidoostzadeh 07:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hazara Vocabulary and DNA is proto-mongolic, and so it is anachronistic to call them descendants of the Mongols. They are the descendants of the Kidarite dynasty (who themselves came from the proto-Mongolic Huá (滑) who came under the control of the Rouran) who had conquered the Xionites in the early IVth century.Kaz 19:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Reportage vs Propaganda

I have noticed some hurt feelings starting to pop up over this article because of clearly nationalistic prides being hurt. Could we all please try to step out of ourselves and our nationalistic upbringings whatever thay may have been in order to look at the truth objectively. It is not good to get uppity and dispute things just because it goes against the official line adopted by whatever political party has most sway at any one particular time. This is what caused truth to suffer under the Nazis. Reporters have to be removed from politics, otherwise we simply become part of the propaganda machines.Kaz 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Huns and Kushans

Anyone can shed any light or point me to sources for information for the interaction between the Huns and the Kushan successor states in the Gandhara region. I have come across a source that reads the Turk-Shahi rulers of the Kabul region claimed descent from Kanishka. I was looking to expand that section but noticed that there is problem because they are dated to be the rulers until the Hindu-Shahi assumption of power c. 850 well after the Hun's overran and were repelled from the region. Did the Turk-Shahi merely re-emerge as rulers from a royal linegage of Katormans after the Hun were pushed out, or maybe after the collapse of the Sassanids? Or were they a Hun line making the claim of decent from a legendary figure?--Tigeroo 22:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

These are two very good sources, but I am not sure if they can answer your question :)

• [http://www.iranica.com/articles/v12f2/v12f2036.html

Tājik 23:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy Dispute

The factual accuracy and neutrality are quite different issues. If there exists factual inaccuracy this should be proven first in the talk/discussion page, before putting the tag. Therefore, i'm removing the tag and replacing it with "POV-check" tag. E104421 15:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the exact quote from the source: The Language

There are numerous debates about Hephthalite language. Most scholars believe it is Iranian for the Pei Shih states that the language of the Hephthalites differs from those of the Juan-juan (Mongoloid) and of the "various Hu" (Turkic); however there are some think the Hephthalites spoke Mongol tongues like the Hsien-pi (3rd century) and the Juan-juan (5th century) and the Avars (6th-9th century). According to the Buddhist pilgrims Sung Yun and Hui Sheng, who visited them in 520, they had no script, and the Liang shu specifically states that they have no letters but use tally sticks. At the same time there is numismatic and epigraphic evidence to show that a debased form of the Greek alphabet was used by the Hephthalites. Since the Kushan was conquested by Hephthalites, it is possible they retained many aspects of Kushan culture, including the adoption of the Greek alphabet.

I hope this clarifies things, I taking the article back to its previous version.Khosrow II 15:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I formatted the section to match the source. There should be no more dispute anymore.Khosrow II 16:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• You should give a reliable sources with its full adress, in order to make it verifiable. One more note, please write your comments more clearly, not in pov style. You erased other information given in the article and pushed your version. This is not the correct way of neutralizing the article. If you check the Britannica, what you'll see as follows:

Hephthalite from Encyclopædia Britannica

"also spelled Ephthalite, member of a people important in the history of India and Persia during the 5th and 6th centuries AD. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns or Hunas. They had no cities or system of writing, lived in felt tents, and practiced polyandry.

In the 5th and 6th centuries the Hephthalites repeatedly invaded Persia and India. In the middle of the 6th century under the attacks of the Turks they ceased to exist as a separate people and were probably absorbed in the surrounding population. Nothing is known of their language."

Regards E104421 16:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The article sources, which has a link, says the language is thought to be Iranian by most scholars. Also, Brittanica does not have a final say on any issue, and secondary sources are just as good. I conformed the section to the source listed.Khosrow II 17:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, but the language link is weak. You should not push iranian claim. You already erased other sourced arguments given there. E104421 17:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I didnt know this was Iranian: Stop your POV push. The information in there was sourced, yours is not.Khosrow II 18:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Although i do not think that Khosrow II is kind enough to read or understand my comments, i'm writing for other wikipedians visiting this page. I never edited the article (no contribution to the text), but first commented about the factual accuracy here, then added the POV-check tag. After all, i observed the pov-push, reverts, accusations, deletion/removal of sentences in the article, i first commented and explained clearly in the talk/discussion page, then reverted the article (added the removed information back). The push is quite clearly seen from the bold text comment here, although the author of this statement claims the contrary (see just above: "I didnt know this was Iranian"). If this approach continues, i shall not relent this incivility. Regards E104421 18:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the origin of the Hephthalites is not known. The old theory that they spoke the Bactrian language has been disproved by the documents of Bactria, ancient writings from the Hephthalite period found in Afghanistan. The documents also attest the use of Turkish royal titles, such as Khaqan and Yabghu. However, this is not a proof for the "Turkic theory" either, because royal titles do not necessairly point to the ethnic origin of a people. Besides that, "Yabghu" is not a Turkish word but - most likely - a Tokharian word.

All in one, their origin is not known. What we know for sure is that they differed from their Mongolian and Turkic neighbours by their looks. Ancient Chinese chronicles clearly differenciate between Turkic/Mongol and Hephthalites, putting the Hephthalites in the same cluster as their Indo-European neighbours.

They were probably a large confederation of different Central Asian peoiples - nomadic and urban - at some times ruled by an Iranian-speaking elite and later by a Turkic-speaking elite.

Tājik 19:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• You haven't got a clue what's going on, do you? E104421 19:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

E104421, what? An anon edited the article making some claim and put in unsourced information and you backed him up. Then I reverted it to the old version while making it comform with the source, yet you still reverted. Anyone can look at the edit history, I have nothing to hide. The source listed clearly states that most scholars believe them to have spoken an Iranian language. It seems as though you are the one not reading what others are writing. The information I removed, was unsourced POV by an anon, who you obviously have some connection to. E104421 says that we are trying to push the Iranian POV, yet I clearly pointed out to him that the source of the information was not Iranian at all. E104421 false accusations and denials is clear evidence that he made a mistake and is not trying to cover it up.Khosrow II 20:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

@ E104421: I am referring to 2 articles of the Encyclopaedia Iranica: Hephthalites and Huns. The article of the Britannica is old, not really good, and in many parts not enough. Tājik 20:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, it should be pointed out that E104421 is also revert warring on other Hun articles, one in which he broke 3RR.Khosrow II 20:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Who is Tajik? A literary or encyclopedia critic? If he is, what are his evaluation criterias about Britannica. Actually, he is right about one point. Yes Britannica is an old referance source, the oldest and largest English-language general encyclopaedia. The Encyclopædia Britannica has been published since 1768. That is to say, Britannica is trying to illuminate you and likes you since 1768. I did not understand your fixing that Britannica is not really good. What are your evaluation criterias, or is this an evaluation or an only pleonasm? I wonder my empyreal and fine scholar tajik, which parts are not enough in Britannica. I request, please state these deficiencies and I will report these deficiencies to Britannica. Maybe Britannica editors will be enlightened about these subjects from the world's number one and magnificent source of information since 1996: encyclopedia(?) of iranica. --Karcha 23:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that "Britannica is not good", but that the specific article "Hephthalites" in the Britannica is not good. Besides that, we have better and more authoritative sources available, most of all the Encyclopaedia Iranica and the Encyclopaedia of Islam, both being written and edited by more than 500 leading scholars worldwide.

When it comes to Islamic or Iranian history, these two works have priority and a special status - they are superior to Britannica or any other general encyclopaedia. The Encyclopaedia Britannica is not specialized on Iranian or Islamic history, has usually very short articles, sometimes written by no-names.

The Iranica article is written by professor A.D.H. Bivar, member of the Royal Asiatic Society (RAS), and has an authoritative status. The article of the Encyclopaedia of Islam, written by the same author, clearly says that the term Akhun is a later fabrication - the Iranica articles do not even mention it.

As for the origin of the Hephthalites, professor Bivar says

• "... According to testimony, the "Ephthalitai" were a tribe of Huns and were also called "White Huns." Procopius points out, however, that they did not mix with the other known Huns, that they differed from them in their looks and lifestyle, and that they lived away from the others further north from the Persians. Unlike the other Huns, he said, the Hephthalites were not nomads; they had a king and possessed a well-organized state equal to that of the Romans or Persians. ..."

So, all in one, a Turkic or Mongolian origin - as well as a Turkic name - seem to be extremely unlikely. They did not have Mongolian looks (thus not Turkic), they were not nomads (thus not Turkic), and they had a well-organized kingdom comparable to Persians and Romans (thus not Turkic).

Tājik 17:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Islam

This source can be a credible source but not in historical arguments. It's a religious source, not a historical source. The informations which are sourced by this source must be remove...--Karcha 18:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia of Islam is not what you think it is, calm down. Encyclopaedia of Islam is an encyclopaedia regarding the history of post Islamic invasions of Asia.Khosrow II 18:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course it discuss the history of post islamic era. However its evaluations are in islamic viewpoint and all religions are dogmatic not scientific. Therefore islamic encyclopedia is not a reliable source.--Karcha 18:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the EI Misplaced Pages page.Khosrow II 18:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Ak Hun

Ephtalite is known as 'White Huns' in English Literature (see Columbia Encyclopedia), and 'Ak' means 'White' in Turkish language. So Ak Hun is right term. Please give up this pan-iranist vandalism.--Karcha 02:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

See the Encyclopaedia of Islam: the term "Akhun" is evidently a later fabrication. IF the term WERE original Turkish, it would have been something like "Aqhünä" or something like that, but this is not the case. The modern Turkish language and its special phonology (which clearly distinguishes it from the old and original Turkic languages) emerged out of the hybrid population of Anatolia starting in the 14th century. It has nothing to do with the Hephthalites, and so, the modern Turkish word "Akhun" is a later fabrication and has no place in this article. Tājik 11:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong in writing the translations which is common in many Wiki articles. Furthermore, Columbia Encyclopedia is a reliable source. In addition, Encyclopedia Britannica also uses the name White Huns. I shall revert the article to add this information. As i already mentioned above, check Britannica, which is a reliable source. E104421 13:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As Tajik pointed out, it was a later fabrication. Encyclopaedia of Islam is also a very reliable source.Khosrow II 15:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a later fabrication, what about "white huns"? Actually "white huns" is a later fabrication. Turks were living on these lands as stated in Britannica. See above the Britannica. Turkish name is more related than the English one. E104421 17:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

This is the ENGLISH Misplaced Pages. Take your "Ak hun" to the Turkish Misplaced Pages. THIS article is written in English and only presentes the HISTORICAL names as well as the modern English term. We can't just put all kinds of later fabrications and translations into the article, because certain Pan-Turkists feel insulted. The Hephthalites had NOTHING - absolutely NOTHING - to do with modern Turks. They were not called "Ak hun", and "Ak hun" was NOT their self-designation. ALL contemporary sources - Persian, Indian, and Roman - called them "Hephthalites" (or some other name comparable to that). "White Hun" is the English translation of a word mentioned by Procopius of Caesaria, and even he himself had to make clear that his "White Huns" were clearly different from the other "Huns". The word "Akhun" has no importance in this article. Tājik 17:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

If this is your rule for English Misplaced Pages, take your iranian pushes to iranian wikipedia. Sources other than English are also valid here. Furthermore, now we have to rename it as "White Huns" cause this is the most commonly used name. In all English reliable encyclopedias (Britannica, Columbia,...etc), it's written as "White Huns". We should change the name of the title to "White Huns" because this is English wikipedia. There is nothing wrong writing the other common names, this does not make them related with these people. You're considering to make the White Huns Iranian in this way, although there is nothing known about their language or ethnicity as stated in Britannica and Columbia. After your edits, this article is not neutral anymore. I'm adding the neutrality tag. I'll check the encyclopedia of islam also cause i'm not sure about the factual accuracy of the article after your edits and comments. Regards E104421 18:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

"Iranian pushes"?! Which "Iranian pushes" are you talking about?! Two authoritative sources - Encyclopaedia Iranica and Encyclopaedia of Islam (you need a PW and loggin for the second one; the CD version costs more than $1000) - have been presented, and NONE of them uses your "Ak Hun", the later one even makes clear that it is a fabricated word.

And it's funny that you Pan-Turkists now suddely turn to Columbia Encyclopaedia and Britannica. In case of Timur and Babur, you openly rejected these works because both of them state that Timur and Babur were Mongols and not Turks . And now, you suddenly change your opinion and reject authoritative sources (EI and EIr) and want to force the version of Britannica.

Tājik 20:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying Britannica and Encyclopedia Columbia, you persa-porsa wikipedians are saying islamic and iranic encyclopedias(?). I could not argue which ones more authoritative. Actually I don't have to try to explain to you. Because there is a huge cultural difference between you and me because I'm feeding up with scientific sources like britannica, columbia etc... however you are feeding up with dogmatic and nationalistic sources (like iranic and islamic encyclopedias(?). Therefore you don't understand me and my writings. Do You?--Karcha 21:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Karcha, you obviously do not have any clue as to what Ecyclopaedia Iranica and Encyclopaedia of Islam are. I suggest next time you do research before making your ludicrous claims and speeches.Khosrow II 21:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

@ Karcha: only the fact that you do not know the Encyclopaedia of Islam or the Encyclopaedia Iranica proves that you are in absolutely no position to imporove this article. Calling the Encyclopaedia Iranica "nationalistic and dogmatic" shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ... and with that, you insult more than 400 leading scholars worldwide of which only a tiny minority are Iranians. It shows that you have no respect for those scholars, and that you are in here to falsefy history and push for a wrong and nationalistic POV. Btw, just for your information (since you seem to be an amateur): this is what leading scholars and professors say about the Encyclopaedia Iranica: "quotations from scholars worldwide".

In fact, this is the weakest element of Misplaced Pages: mostly uneducated amateurs who have no knoeledge of what they are talking about try to push for nationalistic POV. Misplaced Pages deffinitly needs more qualified admins.

Tājik 21:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, i'm bored these perso-nazis. They always say same things. Articles are not developing. They only read 2 books. Iranica and islamica. They do not know anything other than these. I wonder why do these sources always take iranians sides in all subjects, like AkHuns, Mewlana, Haci Bektash Veli, Azerbaijan,...etc. I'm warning admins. There are perso-nazi propagandas in several wikipedia articles...--Karcha 21:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Introduction Section

The concise scientific neutral information with references about White Huns or Hephthalites is compiled from Encyclopedias Britannica and Columbia for the introduction section.

• from Columbia Encyclopedia

"White Huns or Hephthalites, people of obscure origins, possibly of Tibetan or Turkish stock. They were called Ephthalites by the Greeks, and Hunas by the Indians. There is no definite evidence that they are related to the Huns Huns.

The White Huns were an agricultural people with a developed set of laws. They were first mentioned by the Chinese, who described them (A.D. 125) as living in Dzungaria. They displaced the Scythians and conquered Sogdiana and Khorasan before 425. They crossed (425) the Syr Darya (Jaxartes) River and invaded Persia. Held off at first by Bahram Gur, they later (483–85) succeeded in making Persia tributary. After a series of wars (503–13) they were driven out of Persia, permanently lost the offensive, and were finally (557) defeated by Khosru I. The White Huns also invaded India and succeeded in extending their domain to include the Ganges valley. They temporarily overthrew the Gupta empire but were eventually driven out of India in 528 by a Hindu coalition. Although in Persia they had little effect, in India the White Huns influenced society by altering the caste system and disrupting the hierarchy of the ruling families. Some of the White Huns remained in India as a distinct group."

• from Encyclopædia Britannica

"also spelled Ephthalite, member of a people important in the history of India and Persia during the 5th and 6th centuries AD. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns or Hunas. They had no cities or system of writing, lived in felt tents, and practiced polyandry.

In the 5th and 6th centuries the Hephthalites repeatedly invaded Persia and India. In the middle of the 6th century under the attacks of the Turks they ceased to exist as a separate people and were probably absorbed in the surrounding population. Nothing is known of their language."

I think that's a really good introduction section based on reliable sources and also easily verifiable. I hope you to stop the revert wars and try to contribute in a neutral way. There is no good in pushing pov forks and edit wars. Regards to all. E104421 13:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

One more note, the former ambiguous unsourced introduction is moved to a more relevent place, the etymology section. RegardsE104421 15:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I support this new introduction section. And not only me but also scientific resources like Encyclopædia Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia support this new section. Yes, there maybe different sources which say different things especially when these sources are "nationalistic and dogmatic". However, in this case we have to choose one: Scientific or dogmatic-nationalistic. I'm choosing scientific and support this new section. As from now we can develop article in a scientific way...--Karcha 15:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Superior sources - most of all the Encyclopaedia Iranica (written by Professor Bivar) - have been presented, and thus, the new introduction cannot be accepted. The belief that the Hephthalites were "Turks" or "Tibetians" is at least 50 years old, and has been disproved since then many times - especially after the discovery of the Bactrian documents.

I know that - especially for Turkish nationalists - it'S very hard to accept authoritative sources such as the Encyclopaedia Iranica. And they even depant themselvs by calling leading scholars, such as Mary Boyce or Richard Nelson Frye "dogmatic Iranian nationalists" ... But this does not change facts.

As for the "polyandry" mentioned even in Britannica, it is a clear reference to a NON-Turkic origin (most likely of Eastern Iranian origin), because polyandry was part of the Non-Persian Iranian culture in what is now eastern Afghanistan (see Frye, Dr. Richard N., "The Heritage of Central Asia", pp. 174-9)

Tājik 17:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

My dear perso-reverter tajik. Actually i could not understand what are you trying to do. Your Bactrian documents link is not related with white huns, there is nothing about white huns in that article or document. So, what are you trying to do as giving irrelated links? I am reading them and i suggest you to read them too before putting this. Also, if you think the belief that the Hephthalites were "Turks" or "Tibetians" is at least 50 years old, you have to report that to Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedias.--Karcha 17:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

My dear uneducated Turkish ultra-nationalist "Karcha" who believes that the American orinetalist Richard Nelson Frye is a "Persian dogmatic nationalist":

The link to the Bactrian documents was ment to educate you that there are ancient documents found in what is now Afghanistan dealing with the Hephthalite period, since I know that you have almost no knowledge about the Hephthalites.

The Britannica article is a very short article, not even written by a scholar. It contradicts almost all scholarly sources (from Enoki and Frye, to Bivar, Gökalp, or Minorsky) and gives no references to secondary literature.

Let me quote Prof. Schottky in Encyclopaedia Iranica:

• "... Altheim (III, 1961, p. 7) viewed the Hephthalites as the original tribe of the Huns, from which the European Huns had split off. In addition, he also assumed a Turkish origin for all these tribes (Altheim, I, 1959, pp. 45 ff.). However, this far too simplistic perspective has been succeeded by a more discriminating view based on Robert Göbl's research. A prominent characteristic, which they shared with all other Central Asian power constellations, was their ethnic mixture, among which the elite was said to be Iranian, or at least expressed itself as such through its coinage (Göbl, 1978, p. 107). It is noteworthy that the tribes in question deliberately called themselves "Huns" in order to frighten their enemies (Frye, pp. 345-46). ..."

Tājik 17:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• The introduction section is well-edited from internationally recognized reference sources Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedias. The information about them already given above. These references reflect the works of the mainstream of academicians. There are also other sources such as Turkish Encyclopedia and Iranian Encyclopedia. However, to prevent neutrality questions, it's always better and safer to use the world-wide known sources like Britannica and Columbia. The article now has a good starting point, the introduction section. Instead of reverting and edit warring, please try to contribute neutrally and positively to the other parts, of course, based on reliable sources. Regards to all. E104421 19:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added Classic Encyclopedia, another scientific and worldwide recognized (except for tajik khosrow) sources. If these are not enough i can find more "scientific" resource. Actually this is not difficult. Because there is only one true in these non-dogmatic and non-nationalistic sources. Ok, you will again shout as iranica, islamica, iranica, islamica... Actually it's no matter. You are my neighbours, if you are happy with those dogmatic sources i'm happy too...--Karcha 20:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You do not even know the meaning of "scientific" ... Countless leading scholars worldwide accept the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica as authoritative sources whzen it comes to Iranian and Islamic history. Britannica is a general encyclopaedia and is NOT specialized on Islamic or Iranian history. I know that it is very hard for Turkish extremists to accept this simple fact.

Iranica and the EI are the sources ... whoever wants to disprove these 2 scholarly works needs to present REALLY GOOD literiture (for example special scholarly works on the shitory of the Hephthalites). You have not presented ONE SINGLE scholarly work specialized on Hephthalite history. All you did was quoting general encyclopaedias that are NOT written by scholars.

You are even purposely ignoring scholarly works, such as the "The Heritage of Central Asia" by Prof. Richard Frye (Harvard University professor) or "On the history of the Hephthalites" by Japanese professor Enoki (THE expert on Hephthalite history).

Tājik 21:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You will never amaze me. I wonder one thing. White Huns were destroyed in the years of 557. As i know that period is pre-islamic period. In this case, what is the relationship between islam and Ak Huns? I wonder. Please Illuminate us my best-reverter tajik...--Karcha 21:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"Encyclopaedia of Islam is an encyclopaedia regarding the history of post Islamic invasions of Asia" (above by Khosrow). Ok White Hun is irrelevant subject for this encyclopedia(?). Because, White Huns were in "pre-islamic" period. Also, you are right i have not presented a single scholar work, however i have presented general views, not a person's view. Encyclopedias are prepared by experts and scholars already, not by me or you. A commission which consists of scholars prepares these. Please learn and read sources other than dogmatic and nationalistic ones.--Karcha 21:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You see ... this is the problem with you. You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. If you had even a little bit knowledge of history, you would know that the Hephthalite EMPIRE was destroyed by the Sassanids. The Hephthalite PEOPLE escapted to the Hindu Kush mountains and created small, but independent local dyansties which existed up to the 9th ncetory before they were overwhlemed by the Arab-Muslim forces. Where do you think does the Arabic name "Heytal" come from?!

Tststststs .... Tājik 22:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

My best reverter tajik, if you spend more time to learn you do not need to ask these. I had given referance but you did not read as i know. I will write here for you to learn:

Their original name was Hoa or Hoa-tun; subsequently they styled themselves Ye-tha-i-li-to after the name of their royal family, or more briefly Ye-tha. Before the 5th century A.D. they began to move westwards, for about 420 we find them in Transoxiana, and for the next 130 years they were a menace to Persia, which they continually and successfully invaded, though they never held it as a conquest. The Sassanid king, Bahram V., fought several campaigns with them and succeeded in keeping them at bay, but they defeated and killed Peroz (Firuz), A.D. 484. His son Kavadh I. (Kobad), being driven out of Persia, took refuge with the Ephthalites, and recovered his throne with the assistance of their khan, whose daughter he had married, but subsequently he engaged in prolonged hostilities with them. The Persians were not quit of the Ephthalites until 557 when Chosroes Anushirwan destroyed their power with the assistance of the Turks, who now make their first appearance in western Asia. (Classic Encyclopedia)--Karcha 22:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hoa>Hun (Maybe you do not understand)--Karcha 22:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

And I wonder one thing too: How Much celcius degree is Water boiling in encyclopedia iranica and islamica? Or I have to change the question like this: How much celcius degree do iranians want?:) What is tststststs tajik? is it persian? i didn't understand what do you mean?--Karcha 22:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Since you have recently fallen in love with the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911 (which you wrongly call "Classic Encyclopaedia"), I would like to know your honest opinion on the following article of that encyclopaedia:

• "... MIRZA MAHOMMED BEN SHAH ROK ULUGH BEG 0394-1440, Persian astronomer, son of the shah Rok and grandson of Timur, succeeded his father as prince of Samarkand in 1 447 ..."

I am sure you have no problems with that, right?! But, hey, I am not blaming you ... after all, you do not seem to be very educated. I mean, you believe that Rumi was Turk *lol*

Tājik 23:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevancy, unconnectedness, competition to be preminent in sth trifling, out of subject.--Karcha 23:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Why out of subject?! You insult the Encyclopaedia Iranica and 500 of the most respected scholar of Oriental studies only because you do not like the truth, and here you complain about "irrelevant toppics"?! Let me show you another quote from your favourite source, what you call "Classic Encyclopaedia":

• "... The Turks are imitative rather than original, and, in all their branches, have assimilated to some extent the nearest civilization whenever they have settled down. Up to the 7th century their only culture consisted of some scraps of Chinese and Indian civilization. Subsequently both the eastern and western states which they founded adopted Perso-Arabic civilization and Mahommedanism. The Osmanlis have also been affected by Byzantine and west European influences. ..."

And you want to tell us something about "Turkish civilization"?! *lol

Tājik 23:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Also i think you do not know reading english texts, because Classic Encyclopedia is different than britannica, if you read carefully you see "based on the 11th edition of EB". It's initial referance is 11th Britannica, it's improving. you see? I have to ask: what is your 10 years old iranic encyclopedia's initial referance? You'll learn...--Karcha 23:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Take this;

"About Disputed ethnic origin of persians"

The papyri from Tebtunis record several sites in the Fayum, which appear to have been founded as ethnic communities in the third century BCE. These include the "Village of the Syrians" (Syrôn kômê), "Village of the Arabs" (Arabôn kômê) and Samareia, which contained a sizable Jewish population and was probably named after the city in Palestine.

Although ethnic designations like Boeotian, Macedonian, Syrian, Arab and Jew probably refer to geographic origin, "Persian" proves problematic. Its precise origin or significance is disputed. In the early Ptolemaic period it seems to describe people with Greek names functioning in a Greek context; although they enjoy a privileged status, they are counted separately from Greeks in tax lists. In late Ptolemaic and Roman contracts, "Persian of the epigonê" refers to the legal status of a debtor who had waived certain personal rights in order to secure the collection of a debt.

Persians 6 June 12 BCE

In this Demotic contract, summarized in Greek at the bottom, Pakemis son of Pakemis, acknowledges the loan of the dowry of his wife Tameische (Greek, Tameischis), daughter of Sokonopis, and promises to repay it. Here "Persian" does not seem to indicate descent, but describes a man with the status of a debtor. In this example, the subject has an Egyptian personal name, but "Persian of the epigonê" is just as frequently used to describe people with Greek names.

P.Tebt. II 386 (http://tebtunis.berkeley.edu/lecture/clar_ex2.html) Read and Learn... --Karcha 23:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

So now, you suddenly leave Britannica and Columbia and look for some other sources, huh?! What happened?! Changed your mind again?! Typical Pan-Turkist hypocrite:

• "... The Persians, Kurds, and speakers of other Indo-European languages in Iran are descendants of the Aryan tribes that began migrating from Central Asia into what is now Iran in the 2nd millennium BC. ..." Encyclopaedia Britannica
• "... Iran’s central position has made it a crossroads of migration; the population is not homogeneous, although it has a Persian core that includes over half of the people. Azerbaijanis constitute almost a quarter of the population. The migrant ethnic groups of the mountains and highlands, including the Kurds, Lurs, Qashqai, and Bakhtiari, are of the least mixed descent of the original Iranians ..." Columbia Encyclopaedia
• "... The Medes were an Aryan (Indo-Iranian) people who entered the Iranian plateau around 1500 along with the Persians, Parthians, Bactrians, and Arachosians, while other Aryan tribes went on to conquer northern India. ..." Columbia Encyclopaedia

Tājik 00:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here are two very important aticles on Hephtalites. . The article by Tremblay although in French has done an etymological analysis of all the Hephtalite names. Richard Frye considers them mainly Iranian by with perhaps some Altaic elements. I think all ideas should first be subjected to scholarly evaluation (is it written by scholars or psuedo-historians) then mentioned in the article. --alidoostzadeh 01:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No, i didn't leave them and i always look for some other sources. Not only one or two sources.Karcha 01:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• The sources provided by Tajik as Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia does not provide information on White Huns from the official sites. The one declared as Columbia Encyclopedia redirects to http://www.bartleby.com/. The other one from Britannica is not related with White Huns. The users Tajik and Khosrow II are trying to defocus the discussion from its main point. They are also accusing everyone who counter their pov-arguments as ultra-nationalists or uneducated hypocrites. Civility is a rule for the conduct of edits, comments, and talk page discussions on all Wikipedias. The aim is to provide comprehensive information based on reliable sources. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is not a place for original research and content forking. Regards to all. E104421 09:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

By now, we all know that you are unable to read and to understand. Just click on the links and you'll see that it says: "The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05." If you can't stand the truth, then it's YOUR problem, not that of the readers. And by the way: the Encyclopaedia Iranica and Encyclopaedia of Islam are authoritative (since your education seems to be below standard US high school level, you may need to look up the word in a dictionary) scholarly sources, written by world-renowned scholars (in this case the famous orientalist Prof. Bivar!). If you revert this source again, I WILL report you to an admin! Tājik 00:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• No, you're misunderstood. Why don't you give the links of the official sites? Please, stop mixing the statements and deleting some words from them, you're misleading people. The introduction section is well-sourced, if you are to add something more you're welcome. You can report to anyone, i already gave the sources and their contents here, then edited the introduction section based on these the world wide known encyclopedias. Furthermore, while editing i placed the previous content of the introduction section to etymology cause it's direcly related with this section, so nothing's lost from the version prior to my edit. Check the beginning of this talk section, the sources are from official sites and the directly from the pages related with "White Huns" which is also presented above. Please remember that wikipedia is not a place for original research. There are always controversial issues, but here we should reflect the one which is built on consensus. As i said before, there are other encyclopedias as you mentioned Iranian Encyclopedia but also Turkish Encyclopedia, even Turkish translation of Britannica (which calls "white Huns" as "Akhuns"). However, I prefered the international English (Columbia and Britannica) ones, cause i think only in this way we can provide neutrality. The other ones would increase the neutrality question as happened here. Please, stop changing the content of the article (removing some words, sentences, while keeping the others) to favor yours. If you read the content of sources i just provided above, you'll se the version of my introduction section is edited from Britannica and Columbia. I observed that you're always trying to remove the tibetan and turkic connection in favor of persian one. If someone contributes with arguments and references contrary to yours, you immediately put "disputed" tag and start attacking these editors as "uneducated hypocrites", "ones unable to read and to understand", or "ultra-nationalists". Please also report these personal attacks, too. You always think only yours is accurate and neutral. In this way, you cannot help cause you'll always increase the questions of neutrality and factual accuracy automatically. One more note, please try to be civil and assume good will. I want to cooperate instead of argueing you all the time, cause you're preventing the progress of the article. E104421 11:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about?! http://www.bartleby.com/65/ IS the "official link" to the online version of Columbia Encyclopaedia. This is the SAME link YOU yourself have used in the article!

Besides that, you have edited the intro ONLY based on Columbia. WHERE does Britannica say that the Hephthalites were "Turks or Tibetians"?!

And could you please explain why you pruposely revert the references to R. Frye and K. Enoki (these two are the LEADING scholars on this issue - NOT Britannica, and NOT Columbia!).

Your push for "Akhun" is pure POV. None of the sources above - not even your own Britannica and Columbia - mention the word "Ak Hun" ... this is your personal POV. You are in NO position to invent or translate words. "Ak Hun" has NO historical value and is not mentioned in ANY reliable source.

You have deleted scholarly sources (EI, EIr, R. Frye, K. Enoki, and A.D.H. Bivar) for the third time. This is clearly nationalistic-motivated vandalism.

And your stubborn claim that "Britannica is superior to EI or EIr" proves that you have absolutely NO idea of oriental studies or of the Hephthalites. You are the typical nationalist who is pushing for a nationalistic POV, having absolutely no idea of scholarly sources.

Tājik 22:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So the battle lines are drawn once again, Turk va Tajik dobare jang mikonand. Any attempt to establish my bona-fides will no doubt be in vain, but I would like to point out that I am English, and have no Turkic or Persian axe to grind in this dispute, and that I have disagreed with Tājik in the past over related issues (see Talk:Babur if you don't believe me). However, in this instance Tajik is right. The question of precisely what ethnicity the Hephthalites were is unlikely ever to be definitively resolved (it beats me why anyone should care, but for some people even the most distant link helps massage the nationalist ego). The question of what language they spoke is equally obscure because this period saw so many migrations by iranian, turkic and mongolic nomadic peoples. David Christian suggests that "there were probably many Turkic-speakers within the Hepthalite and Hunnic confederations." A History of Russia, Inner Asia and Mongolia (Oxford) 1998 p248 This is the crucial point - these terms should be seen not so much as tribal names or linguistic identities, let alone proto-nationalities, but as political confederations of many different nomadic groups. Just to underline this, he further writes (p252), when talking about the earliest Central Asian conquests that we can identify as "Turkic" (The Gok Turk Ishtemi's campaigns in Western Transoxiana in AD 555-69) "In 557 he concluded an alliance with the Sassanian Emperor, Khosrow II, who married his daughter. in 562, the two armies attacked the Hephthalite Empire. Turk armies took Chach (Tashkent) in 564, and the Hephthalites were finally crushed in 565 near Nesef (Karshi)." So, whoever the Hephtalites were, the Turks and Iranians formed an alliance to defeat them - it would be nice to see similar cooperation in a less bloodthirsty cause on wikipedia. They would, in any case, merely have been the ruling elite in the region, as we know that the majority of the inhabitants of Transoxiana remained Persian-speaking until the 14th-15th centuries, and their numbers remained great thereafter (and are significant to this day). So, we don't know for certain, and should avoid making anachronistic projections of modern-day identities (and hatreds) into the past. This leaves us with the simple question of academic and common english usage, and her Tajik has provided you with ample evidence that the term "Hephthalite" has much more currency than "White Huns". When cites the Encyclopaedia of Islam in particular you should pay attention, as it is the leading authority on the entire Islamic world, and covers the pre-Islamic period as well. Even if "White Huns" were in widespread use it would not justify using the term "Akhun" as this is a clear modern nationalist attempt to appropriate an ancient people as "ancestors", when there is no historical justification for this. Tajik has not advocated using a Persian title for the Hephthalites, he is simply standing up for common English usage. This is entirely correct. You can call them whatever you like on Turkish wikipedia. Sikandarji 23:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please visit here: . The french article is the only article that has etymologically analyzed all the Hephtalite names. It is from Professor. Xavier Tremblay who is very famous and the article was written in 2003. --alidoostzadeh 06:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Akhun term is a Turkish translation, there is no relation with nationalism. I mentioned this cause i'd like to them to compare iranian and turkish sources. For this reason, i offered them to skip both turkish encyclopedia and iranian one. I recommend you to read my comments carefully. Furthermore, there is no debate about the title of the article. I also added the information that nothing has known about their language. So, there is no claim of whether they are related to persians or turkic nations. I already keep them all in the etymology section regarding the origin of Hephthalites. On the other hand, i find the sentence "You can call them whatever you like on Turkish wikipedia " totally simplistic POV, cause we should try to improve the quality of both wikipedias. The information given should be based on neutral and reliable sources. So, if based on these sources, i do not think that there would be a problem. Furthemore, i'm not the one pushing anything from turkish wikipedia. I collected the information directly from Columbia and Britannica, there is no nationalism in it, if you think so, comment on this to the editors of these encyclopedias. No encyclopedia can be favored to the other one. Keeping the iranian and removing the Britannica and Columbia is not a resonable approach. E104421 09:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

In fact it is a perfectly reasonable approach - you seem to have a very erroneous idea of what the Encyclopaedia Iranica is - it is not produced in Iran, or (largely) by Iranian scholars. It is an international project based at Columbia University for which the finest Orientalists the world over have been writing. I've had occasion to quibble at the content of some of the articles, but not on "nationalist" or "Pan-Iranian" grounds. The Encyclopaedia of Islam is an even better source, not least because it is complete (the Iranica hasn't really got beyond the letter "I" yet). These sources trump the Britannica every time, as they specifically concentrate on the Islamic and Iranian worlds, from the beginning of human history to the present, and their articles are written by trained orientalists (those on early-modern & 19th century Central Asia in the Iranica for instance are written by Yuri Bregel, the leading specialist in the subject). Obviously it would be good to improve Turkish Misplaced Pages as well, but I've been around here for too long not to know that the non-English sites spend most of their time pushing the POV of whichever nationality whose language the article is in. Finding the audience too small and wishing to propagate their ideas further, the nationalists (and worse) then descend on English wikipedia, the one truly international version of the Encyclopaedia, and neutrality goes out of the window. There is no point in having a Turkish translation - articles become absurdly cumbersome if translations of the title or term into every conceivable language are provided at the beginning. Only those which are relevant are included, and that is where nationalist claims come in. This is why we should stick to the English terms. Finally, some material from the source provided by alidoostzadeh above:

I have copied out the relevant passages here – as you will see there is still no absolute certainty on this point, but the trend in scholarship is towards assigning the Hephtahlites an Iranian origin and language. Tremblay also makes the useful point that the term “Hun” has been used for all sorts of completely unrelated nomadic confederations.

Enoki, Kazuo, Memoirs of the Research Department of the Tokyo Bunko, 1959, No. 18, "On the Nationality of the Ephthalites" p56

“Let me recapitulate the foregoing. The grounds upon which the Ephthalites are assigned an Iranian tribe are : (1) that their original home was on the east frontier of Tokharestan; and (2) that their culture contained some Iranian elements. Naturally, the Ephthalites were sometimes regarded as another branch of the Kao-ch’e tribe by their contemporaries, and their manners and customs are represented as identical with those of the T’u-chueh, and it is a fact that they had several cultural elements in common with those of the nomadic Turkish tribes. Nevertheless, such similarity of manners and customs is an inevitable phenomenon arising from similarity of their environments. The Ephthalites could not be assigned as a Turkish tribe on account of this. The Ephthalites were considered by some scholars as an iranized tribe, but I would like to go further and acknowledge them as an Iranian tribe. Though my grounds, as stated above, are rather scarce, it is expected that the historical and linguistic materials concerning the Ephthalites are to be increased in the future and most of the newly-discovered materials seem the more to confirm my Iranian-tribe theory.”

Almost fifty years later, Xavier Tremblay has been able to conduct the sort of detailed analysis of Hephthalite materials which Enoki was hoping for, conducting a detailed study of those personal names which have come down to us:

Xavier Tremblay, Pour une histore de la Sérinde. Le manichéisme parmi les peoples et religions d’Asie Centrale d’apré les sources primaire, Vienna, 2001, Appendix D «Notes Sur L'Origine Des Hephtalites” , pp. 183-88

«Malgré tous les auteurs qui, depuis KLAPROTH jusqu’ ALTHEIM in SuC, p113 sq et HAUSSIG, Die Geschichte Zentralasiens und der Seidenstrasse in vorislamischer Zeit, Darmstadt, 1983 (cf. n.7), ont vu dans les Hephthalites des Turcs, l’explication de leurs noms par le turc ne s’impose jamais, est parfois impossible et n’est appuyée par aucun fait historique (aucune trace de la religion turque ancienne), celle par l’iranien est toujours possible, parfois évidente, surtout dans les noms longs comme Mihirakula, Toramana ou γοβοζοκο qui sont bien plus probants qu’ αλ- en Αλχαννο. Or l’iranien des noms des Hephtalites n’est pas du bactrien et n’est donc pas imputable à leur installation en Bactriane Une telle accumulation de probabilités suffit à conclure que, jusqu’à preuve du contraire, les Hepthalites étaient des Iraniens orientaux, mais non des Sogdiens.»

And for those unfortunates who do not understand the language of love, here is a rough translation:

“Despite all those authors who, from KLAPROTH to ALTHEIM in SuC, p113 sq and HAUSSIG, Die Geschichte Zentralasiens und der Seidenstrasse in vorislamischer Zeit, Darmstadt, 1983 (cf. note 7), have seen in the Hepthalites the Turks, the explanation of their names through Turkic is never necessary, is sometimes impossible and is not driven by any historical fact (there is no trace of the ancient Turkic religion), that from Iranian is always possible, sometimes obvious, especially in the long names such as Mihirakula, Toramana or γοβοζοκο which are much more evidential than αλ- in Αλχαννο. Furthermore the Iranian of Hephthalite names is not Bactrian and is thus not attributable to their settlement in Bactria Such an accumulation of probabilities suffices to conclude that, until there is proof to the contrary, the Hephthalites were eastern Iranians, but not Sogdians.” Sikandarji 09:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, these do not reflect that there is a consensus on the origins of Ephthalites. There is no definite evidence about their language and culture. Secondly, Enoki Kazuo's statement dated 1959 "I would like to go further and acknowledge them as an Iranian tribe" reflects his guess or opinion. This does not prove the iranian origin or disregards others. As far as i see from the material presented by Sikandarji, the origins of Ephthalites is a topic of ongoing research. So, maybe the best solution is to prepare a new section in the article related with recent research data. However, there is an official wikipedia policy, namely, no original research. Please keep this in mind. I personally agree with presenting all the sourced data on neutral grounds, but at the same time strongly disagree with favoring one of them to the others. Regards to all. E104421 10:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

OMG ... no further comments needed. It's totally hopeless, because User:E104421 does NOT WANT to understand. Tājik 10:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• I started reading Enoki Kazuo's article. He also comments that nothing definite has been recorded about the origin of the Ephthalites, and more reasearh is need to identify their origins. So, this is a topic of ongoing research. I'll come back to the issue after reading the material presented Sikandarji and alidoostzadeh. Regards E104421 10:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

OK User:E104421 - I'm sorry I described you as a "nationalist", but Tajik does have a point when he says that the Iranica and the Encyclopaedia of Islam are more reliable than the Britannica on Oriental topics, particularly if you're using an old version of the latter. I suggest you have a look here and make up your own mind about the Iranica - it has its faults, but it is not a vehicle for pan-Iranianism and some of its articles are of exceptionally high quality. Have a look at these in particular:

• Encyclopaedia Iranica: Central Asia in pre-Islamic Times (R. Frye)
• Encyclopaedia Iranica: Central Asia from the Islamic Period to the Mongol Conquest (C. Bosworth)
• Encyclopaedia Iranica: Central Asia in the Mongol and Timurid Periods (B. Spuler)
• Encyclopaedia Iranica: Central Asia from the 16th to the 18th centuries (R.D. McChesney)
• Encyclopaedia Iranica: Central Asia in the 18th-19th centuries (Yuri Bregel)

I work on the history of Central Asia, and I can assure you that a roll-call of Richard Frye, C.E. Bosworth, Berthold Spuler, Robert McChesney and Yuri Bregel read like a "Who's who in Central Asian History" - it's really very impressive. The Encyclopaedia of Islam, published by Brill, is not available online but should need no introduction - there is a Turkish translation of the first edition (Islam Ansiklopedisi, I think), the second, which was completed in the 80s, is even better. It is the single most authoritative source on the entire Islamic world, and deserves to be taken seriously. Finally, I agree with you that there is no consensus over the origins of the Hephthalites, although as we see above scholarship is moving towards a theory of their Iranian origin, based on the scant available sources. Enoki's article is old: it is interesting because he writes that he hopes further research will be done and new sources uncovered, and that is precisely what Tremblay has done. As this is published (and in this case available online as a reference) this does not count as "original research" and can therefore be referred to in the article. Sikandarji 10:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)