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2018 November

Jaggi Vasudev

Jaggi Vasudev (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because he repeated the vastly refuted points in closing this requested move.

I have edited the talk page but not the requested move discussion because it seemed that the page was obviously going to be moved. However this outcome was not expected.

Two points have been made by the closure:

1. "independent reliable sources – i.e. those not written by innerengineering, etc – typically write out the subject's name": Absolutely incorrect because this month alone, the "independent reliable sources" referred him as Sadhguru. We cannot find any reliable English sources that referred him as "Jaggi Vasudev" in the story's title during this month or the even the previous month. Overall, search hits "Sadhguru" (80 million) are many much higher compared to "Jaggi Vasudev" (7 million).

2. "No real argument has been made here that there is some reason why this article should go against the the manual of style entry" : See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There is a clear absence of any other "Sadhguru" than this individual. No one else is referred as "Sadhguru", except this individual. No reliable sources have used "Sadhguru" and "Satguru" as interchangeable terms so far. The argument of "honorific" was completely WP:OR and misleading. If there was really any honorific called "Sadhguru" then we should seeing other any notable individual being referred as "Sadhguru".

That was about the strength of policy related argument. Overall there were 14 editors (including uninvolved ones like Marcocapelle, Amakuru, Arbor to SJ) who clearly supported the move, while there were only 6 editors (all deeply involved in the subject area) who opposed the move. The difference between oppose and support count is high. It can be said that mass badgering by a couple of opposing editors must have discouraged many potential support votes.

I was thinking that I should wait for the reply from the closer, but it seemed that it would be fair to start a discussion here since the closer's contribution history is sporadic (50 edits since 30 November 2017). Qualitist (talk) 10:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse (talk page watcher) (who participated in the RM) The closer has done an excellent job of articulating the community consensus for a discussion that was open for more than 5 weeks.

FYI, Since it has been pointed, Some very reliable English + Hindi sources that referred him as "Jaggi Vasudev" in the story's title

• Jaggi Vasudev’s interaction with FTII Pune students cancelled indianexpress
• Jaggi Vasudev gives fitness challenge to Rajinikanth timesofindia
• अब जग्गी वासुदेव का स्टरलाइट का समर्थन navbharattimes
• Ranveer Singh to be seen in conversation with Jaggi Vasudev at IIM-B firstpost
• River inter-linking must be scientific, not political: Jaggi Vasudev economictimes
• अब जग्गी वासुदेव भी देंगे बीएसएफ को योग का प्रशिक्षण amarujala
• Jaggi Vasudev joins Baba Ramdev in support of Sterlite indianexpress
• Jaggi Vasudev, out on Youth and Truth tour, will speak in JNU telegraph
• 'No one should talk about unemployment in India': Jaggi Vasudev says problem arises due to preference for certain jobs firstpost
• From Baba Ramdev to Jaggi Vasudev, BSF’s yoga quest changes direction indianexpress
• I can go on but you get the idea.

• Funny to read that every editor opposing this person's POV is "heavily involved", their factual evidence based comment are OR and everyone supporting is "uninvolved". As for me I am a Page Mover and regularly participate in RM discussions and WP:RMT, also I have never edited that page before this RM discussion. But hey, why let facts come in front of a good story. --DBigXrayᗙ 11:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

All these sources are not recent but from 2 years, and each of them are at least 3 months old. Since this is all you could discover from 2017 - present, this was indeed my point that "Jaggi Vasudev" is not the common name. Here I presented reliable sources from this month alone that use "Sadhguru" as the story's title, while no one has used "Jaggi Vasudev" from this month or even the previous month. Hindi sources (which are way higher for "Sadhguru") are irrelevant since this is an English Misplaced Pages. By saying "deeply involved" I was saying that you edit this subject (India as a whole) too frequently, and in fact you have strong feelings about this individual, as shown by your own edits to the article. This is not a requested move discussion round second, so it would be more better if you focus on the closer. Qualitist (talk) 12:06, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

talking about the dates and 2 years.

• September 19, 2018
• Jun 20, 2018
• Jun 28, 2018
• July 18, 2018
• Nov 28, 2017
• 25 Jun 2018
• June 28, 2018
• 22 September 2018
• Sep 16, 2018
• June 25, 2018
• 22 Nov 2018
• 8 Nov 2018

--DBigXrayᗙ 12:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Your last two sources("22 Nov 2018", "8 Nov 2018") only makes a passing mention and that is not what I was referring. I was talking about "story's title", because "Jaggi Vasudev" is not used as a title of the story by any reliable source, not only this month but also the previous month. Why Misplaced Pages should use a less common name? It looks like you are now badgering this move review just like you badgered entire RM since you are working to make your petty comment look longer than it is. You made your comments on RM and here, now let uninvolved editors judge. Qualitist (talk) 12:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• notes from closer—couple comments:
  • did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because he repeated the vastly refuted points in closing this requested move. – I don't understand this statement; if I'm doing something wrong please let me know.
  • Absolutely incorrect because this month alone, the "independent reliable sources" referred him as Sadhguru... All 4 sources you listed do spell out his name. That is all I said. (And one of them is not independent.)
  • PRIMARYTOPIC doesn't say "use a title if the subject is the primary topic for the phrase" – e.g. President Obama is not the title of that page. (Also that note doesn't address what I said: no argument is given for going against WP:HONORIFIC.)
  • re. Honorifics: there is a strange claim here and in the rm that Sadhguru is not an honorific. Aside from whether this question has anything to do with how the article should be titled, this is just plain false: it is an honorific; it's an alternate spelling of Satguru. Am I missing something? Is like a nickname or something, having nothing to do with Satguru? Why do people keep saying it is not an honorific? Indian honorifics – should we fix that?
  • It is not a vote.

  Thanks! ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Arent we supposed to discuss the page move? If so, then we should rather focus on name used as title as well as the most common name reliable sources have used to mostly refer the subject which is "Sadhguru". Not all 4 sources spell out the name because India Post made no mention of "Jaggi Vasudev". Even if the page was moved, we won't be omitting mention of his real name but only using title as "Sadhguru" like majority of reliable sources. Do reliable sources refer him as "Sadhguru" or "Jaggi Vasudev" when it comes to more common name? Answer is Sadhguru. Mention of "Satguru" is completely an irrelevant WP:OR since no reliable sources call this individual a "Satguru". Which reliable sources call him "satguru" and which reliable sources use "satguru" and "sadhguru" as interchangeable terms? None. Obviously page move is not a vote, but when minority has made no sensible argument then we really need to consider that there wqs no impact of unconvincing argument. Qualitist (talk) 17:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

  Not all 4 sources spell out the name – ah, right – that one is the non-independent one. I think the rest has been addressed: it's independent sources we're looking at. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• So first you misrepresent sources then call independented sources "non-independent"? So far how many recent sources have you discovered which use "Jaggi Vasudev" as title? I am still waiting. Qualitist (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

  —then call independented sources "non-independent"? – See at the bottom of the article there where it says "contact us at IECSupport@innerengineering.com"?

  —So far how many recent sources have you discovered – I'm the closer, not a participant – I don't think I discovered any. The RM discussion stands on its own; I think there were plenty listed there. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• You should highlight your rebuttal when your closer is objected. Simply suggesting that argument might have been made without providing any diff is insufficient. Rzvas (talk) 02:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what you're referring to; if there's something you're asking me to link to specifically? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 02:52, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• "I think there were plenty listed there". What were they? No reason to believe that they could counter the sources provided by supporters of RM. Rzvas (talk) 07:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn and rename. To me, this is a close one between "no consensus" and "moved", but certainly not a consensus to not move, as the close suggests. Should disclose that I am an uninvolved relister, and that I have been interested in meditation subjects since the 70s. So I am familiar with this person's lectures, and yet I've only known him as "Sadhguru" until I relisted this RM. At least on the circuits I travel, he is commonly known by that name. While it is likely that the name "Sadhguru" began as an honorific for this individual, many sources have been shown to indicate that it has become a common name for him. And so far as can be determined, as another spelling of "Satguru", that particular spelling, "Sadhguru", has only been reserved for this individual. Therefore, the supporters' args with policy (WP:COMMONNAME) seem to outweigh the opposers' guideline args (WP:HONORIFIC) in this case. Not in any sense trying to reargue the RM here, just explaining my reasons why the close of this RM should be rethought. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    18:00, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, it was noted in the RM that people who interact with him primarily by consuming his services would know him as "Sadhguru". Of course, as a closer I would not count that for much vs. "hey all these independent reliable sources use his name instead". BTW I can live with "Hey Erik you should have closed it as 'no consensus'" – in that case we leave it where it is (and where it had been for years before the moves). It was certainly not the most firm consensus I've seen. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Thank you for your response. The thing is, I can't in good conscience live with a "no consensus" close, although that would mean that a follow-up non-out-of-process RM could happen sooner rather than later. The arguments for COMMONNAME still seem to outweigh anything from the opposition, so it still seems to me that the move request should have been granted. Forgive me, as I fail to see how you could have concluded that there was in any way a consensus to not move. What may be needed here from you is a detailed, explicit explanation of how you came to that conclusion. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    04:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Paine Ellsworth, it is very heavy of you to put your life and conscience on the line over this move review. Are you sure you are a dispassionate reviewer here? What would the sadhguru advise with respect to this disagreement? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Making a joke at an MRV? ;>) What do those ngrams say to you, SmokeyJoe? They say to me, few or no books can be found that have been written about a fellow named "Sadhguru". And they also say that as a term, "Sadhguru" doesn't appear to be even remotely synonymous with the two "general" honorifics that did register. What do they say to you?Paine Ellsworth, ed.    06:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Joke? I’m deadly serious about this topic of love and beauty. What does the ngram say? I read: possibly a neologism or a unique SMALLDIFF name, but we mustn’t go there becuase these words weren’t in the RM. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  What may be needed here from you is a detailed, explicit explanation of how you came to that conclusion. – I'm happy to elaborate or clarify or retract as appropriate if you have any specific questions about my detailed explicit explanations that I've given so far. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  Where we seem to disagree is re. the strength of the policy arg COMMONNAME plus the guideline arg PTOPIC vs. the strength of the guideline arg. HONORIFIC. Still don't see how that can fly as a consensus to not move. Forgive me, but your close seems to be way off base. The only thing that makes me question my own bar is SmokeyJoe's endorsement, which I also cannot fathom. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    04:56, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  As discussed elsewhere in this MRV, COMMONNAME (note there it says "significant majority of independent...sources") and HONORIFIC both point to the close I made. PTOPIC is of course totally irrelevant to this RM (note that Sadhguru is still a redirect to the subject; that's all PTOPIC would say). I don't understand what you're saying. Do you feel I'm wrong to weigh independent sources more per COMMONNAME? Can you elaborate? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 05:51, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  Where I think you've erred is simply in incorrectly assessing the strength of the COMMONNAME policy args in the RM. I don't understand how you could possibly come up with anything besides "moved", or at the very least "no consensus"? Just doesn't make sense to me. I suppose we're at a standstill and will have to wait and see what the MRV closer decides. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    09:17, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  I can see you aren't buying my discussion of how I applied COMMONNAME :) If there's anything specific about it I can address please let me know! (And like I said, I'd be happy to recharacterize this as no consensus; I feel like there is a global consensus about the issues involved, but even after subtracting out the SPAs there is clearly a high percentage of people that have issues with applying them in this particular case. It won't matter much, though; the current title is the longstanding one.) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:12, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  Nothing specific other than we disagree on the strength of those COMMONNAME policy args in the RM. And don't change your close to "no consensus" on my account, because while I think "no consensus" would make more sense than your seeing a consensus to not move, the RM to me is a classic case of consensus to move the article title to "Sadhguru". I could be wrong, heaven knows it's happened before; however, this time I'm not the single, lost voice in the wilderness. There are others here who agree that the consensus was to rename to Sadhguru, which makes me think I just might be correct in this case. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    23:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn what a mess. There are basically only two arguments presented. The main argument supporting a title of Sadhguru is that it is the WP:COMMONNAME for this person, and that this person is the primary topic for this spelling. Nobody seems to dispute that the person is often referred to this way, and this spelling (as opposed to Satguru) appears to primarily refer to this person. The argument supporting a title of Jaggi Vasudev is that Sadhguru is an religious honorific and cannot be used. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Indic)#Titles and honorifics is clear that Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev would not be an acceptable title, but doesn't seem to forbid a stand-alone title being a common name.
  While they're not quite fair comparisons, we have both Saint Peter and 14th Dalai Lama as titles of articles, suggesting that there's no site-wide rule against religious titles in article titles. Articles are titled Jesus and Muhammed (and more recently Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Menachem Mendel Schneerson, but Sadhguru appears to be a title more akin to "Saint" than "Messiah", I don't see an inherent NPOV issue in using that title. Overall, the arguments for Sadhguru are stronger, and there's a 2-1 numerical majority supporting that position. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

  Notes: No! As noted in my close, another argument was that Sadhguru is *not* the common name in independent sources, and Jaggi Vasudev is. site-wide rule – WP:OTHERSTUFF. Also: wp:NOTAVOTE applies, especially with a number of SPAs. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Apparent misleading POV pushing doesnt count as sensible "argument". It is completely absurd to claim that "Sadhguru" is not the more common name. All 6 opposes came from those who are deeply involved in the subject. OSE don't apply here. Qualitist (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• @Qualitist: - please stop trying to WP:BLUDGEON this discussion. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• @ErikHaugen: It seems fairly easy through Google search to verify that this person is the PRIMARYTOPIC for the spelling "Sadhguru". There's no easy way to verify whether this is the COMMONNAME. I noticed after my first comment that at least one of the editors advocating for this change has been site-banned, and highly recommend any commenters read the ENTIRE talk page and not just the RM section. Overall, "consensus" seemed to be that newspapers calling him Sadhguru in a title and then Jaggi Vasudev in the article doesn't mean that the common name can't be Sadhguru; I don't see "independent sources" mentioned anywhere other than the close. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  —Suppose we determine that the PRIMARYTOPIC for the spelling variant Sadhguru is this subject (i.e., we determine through consensus that WP:SMALLDETAILS applies here in this way). That would not mean that the title of the article should be Sadhguru. It would mean that Sadhguru should redirect to this article. I hope that clears up why PRIMARYTOPIC is completely irrelevant to this discussion. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:54, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Well, no. It needs to be both the PRIMARYTOPIC for Sadhguru, and the COMMONNAME for the person. One is easily proved. The other is disputed. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  point remains – that wasn't really relevant to the RM, and if everyone agrees this is the PT for sadhguru this does not in any way imply that we should move the article. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 06:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• —I don't see "independent sources" mentioned anywhere other than the close. – Independent sources are the gold standard on Misplaced Pages. Specifically as it relates to titling decisions – what to "call" something – WP:COMMONNAME is quite clear about independent sources: as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources. I hope that clarifies why I have been talking about independent sources this whole time. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:54, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Their own sources seem to use Sadhguru, independent sources tend to use both approximately equally. Overall, I see this as closer to Lorde instead of Ella Yelich-O'Connor than an argument to use Rebbe instead of Menachem Mendel Schneerson. If it were purely up to my whim, I'd have both of those (and this article) to the given name. But the question isn't about my whim. It's what the consensus about how site policy is regarding names, and site policy is very lenient towards allowing people to use chosen names, even if absurd. I note XXYYXX as an example with a current open move discussion. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  Regarding Lorde – see my comment below about calling myself Th3 P0P3 – independent sources call her Lorde, so COMMONNAME would suggest Lorde, and HONORIFIC even agrees with that. independent sources tend to use both approximately equally – exactly, and many of those use both, so HONORIFIC comes in to play. All this analysis is in the RM, I think. allowing people to use chosen names – sure! as long as independent sources also use it, Per COMMONNAME. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 06:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse. My reading of the discussion is "no consensus" tending to "consensus to not move". The closer's call is within admin discretion. I think "consensus to move" is definitely not a correct reading. In support of not moving, with no or poor consensus, no one made a case that the status quo has a real problem and that something urgently needed doing. The page should be left at the long term stable title, as it was before User:Anthony Appleyard's 04:17, 6 August 2018 move on the basis of ghits. This is a case for: Wait six months at least, and if you still feel that the community got the decision wrong, start a fresh proposal with a better rationale that covers all the unresolved issues in the discussion of Talk:Jaggi_Vasudev#Requested_move_20_October_2018. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• I think I didnt came here to verify if the action was within admin discretion or not, since page moves needs no admin actions either. It is to verify if the closer was done properly or not, and it was completely improper since the closing editor inaccurately claims that "Satguru" is the alternative name for "Sadhguru" without providing a single source and thinks that passing mention equates to use of the term as page title per their comment here. Closer seems nothing more than a supervote at this stage. We are not here for righting great wrongs. Qualitist (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Admins are vetted at RfA on their experience and ability to recognize consensus, and they deserve that little bit more respect in calling a rough consensus. If this were a WP:NAC I would not be giving a happy comment. "Satguru"/"Sadguru"/"Sadhguru" are all interchangeable close-enough homophone transliterations. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Being an admin gives you no special privelege in closer. Which reliable source calls "Jaggi Vasudev" a "Satguru" or "Sadguru"? They all call him "Sadhguru". This is exactly what I said, that the argument for "oppose" was petty and misleading. Qualitist (talk) 00:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Being an admin gives a special privilege in calling a rough consensus on a controversial discussion. See WP:NAC. Calling a rough consensus is a fairly advanced skill, mixed with a fair bit of arbitrary discretion. Which reliable source calls "Jaggi Vasudev" a "Satguru" or "Sadguru"? I'm talking from my reading of the discussion and google searches, particularly google image searches. They all return the same pictures. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Being an admin gives you no special privelege to right great wrongs. I didnt asked for Google images but "reliable source" (see WP:RS), which in fact you are misrepresenting because "Sadhguru" shows images of this individual, while "Satguru" shows more images of Guru Nanak and few others. Qualitist (talk) 01:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Right great wrongs? What is the great wrong? I don't think the discussion includes a clear distinction between "Sadhguru" and "Satguru", but if you feel there is one, and that it is important, make the case more clearly in a fresh RM in six months. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:57, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• My reading of the discussion is "no consensus" tending to "consensus to not move".

Yes, I can see a possible case for no consensus; however, please explain how the policy of COMMONNAME, for which I think a very strong case has been made in this RM, can be overwhelmed by the guideline of HONORIFIC? The closer has not yet been able to explain this, so perhaps you can?

...if you still feel that the community got the decision wrong...

Actually, it seems to me that the community got the decision right; it was the close that was not synched to the community's decision.

If this were a WP:NAC I would not be giving a happy comment.

Which seems to make the case that the close is even worse having been made by someone who should have known better?

"Satguru"/"Sadguru"/"Sadhguru" are all interchangeable close-enough homophone transliterations.

Not to compare a mere guru with a deity, however the two terms "god" and "God" sound exactly the same, and yet they have very different meanings, don't they? Countless such examples exist. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    05:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Rereading the discussion. Capt.a.Haddock’s analysis was convincing both to me and to other participants, strongly backed up by DBigXRay, with much better source analysis than any opposers who too frequently refer to ghits, which are unreliable, and certainly don’t distinguish quality sources. Sources admit Sadhguru is an honorific, which is to say, not a real proper name. Evidence is presented that it is a mere transliteration variation of Satguru and Sadguru, and it is a very subtle variation, t -> d -> dh in the middle of a word is an accepted accent variation within English around the world. COMMONNAME? Jaggi Vasudev has a perfectly good COMMONNAME claim, no one challenged that. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

More ... the discussion is was too contested and complicated for a NAC close. No NACer should have touched it. On HONORIFIC, I read that as a red herring, both at the RM and here. Honorifics are generally avoided, but that is not a deciding factor. Saint Peter, for example. It does not take much analysis to work out that Sadhguru is a honorific. Contested was whether it is meaningfully distinguished from Satguru and Sadguru. Also contested was whether quality sources use it for introduction without need for “Jaggi Vasudev”, and how “quality” sources relates to “independence” of sources is not settled. Also complicating is how different people read source introductions, because both headlinese and repeated subsequent shorthand use with the same document, has to be downweighted. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:50, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Another note from closer – I gave more weight to WP:HONORIFIC/WP:UCRN (e.g. Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)) than to the vote count. I'm a believer in WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. If Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, Jaggi Vasudev, and Sadhguru are used more or less uniformly across independent sources, then the argument was made that you go with Jaggi Vasudev. Evidence was supplied, no coherent rebuttal seemed to get much support, etc. That's how I think closes should be done. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Yet you have failed to find a single source from this month or past month which use "Jaggi Vasudev" as the title of the story. Evidence doesn't means misrepresenting search result and badgering to right great wrongs. Thats what all 6 opposing editors did who are deeply involved in the subject. 6 oppose against 14 support after mass badgering is opposite to your assertion that rebuttal didnt "seemed to get much support, etc."(what "etc."?) Qualitist (talk) 00:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  Source article title vs. in-article text isn't an important distinction. (AFAICT, that was stated in the RM and nobody disputed it?) seemed to get much support – I'm referring specifically to a coherent rebuttal to the argument that HONORIFIC has something to do with how we title this page. A !vote count on the overall question is a separate matter entirely. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn and rename to the proposed title. The two arguments seemed very weak and made up against WP:COMMONNAME. Inaccuracies within oppose votes also show that they agreed that "Sadhguru" is more common name but falsely claimed it as a honorific despite the name is used only for this very particular subject. Use of Hindi language sources to counter arguments favoring English wiki naming convention seemed like grasping at straws and lack of policy based argument by opposes. Overall the oppose' argument was incoherent and unconvinving. The difference between support and oppose count also speaks volumes. Rzvas (talk) 00:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  Couple questions:

  —The two arguments seemed very weak and made up against WP:COMMONNAME–common name talks about determining the "prevalence in a significant majority of independent" sources – are you saying here that you think that distiction is weak? Should we change COMMONNAME to not prefer considering independent sources? Or – are you suggesting that the conclusion that independent sources use "Jaggi Vasudev" is itself weak and made up? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  —falsely claimed it as a honorific despite the name is used only for this very particular subject – very compelling arguments were made that this is a minor spelling variant of an honorific that is used for several people. One editor, @Born2cycle:, did argue that spelling variants could potentially render honorifics as not honorifics. (e.g., suppose I call myself Th3 P0P3 – maybe that is not an honorific, and could be the title of my page if it catches on per COMMONNAME.) However, this argument was rather thoroughly countered in the RM: e.g. noting that this spelling is occasionally used for other Satgurus, etc, etc. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Any comment that improperly used Hindi language sources to counter naming convention for English Misplaced Pages deserved to be ignored per WP:NHC yet you simply imposed such ignorance in the closer since oppose votes were entirely depending on such non-policy based argument. Disingenuous arguments like "current news articles still routinely refer to Jaggi Vasudev", where posted enough times when it cited only two sources from last year and anyone can tell those sources are not "current". Let us not argue against the established fact that proposed title is a common name where as the present name has low amount of significance. No argument seems to have been made to establish that there is one another person who is also referred as Sadhguru. You need to take some time to evaluate the validity of oppose argument than citing mere existence. Rzvas (talk) 02:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

We do use non-english sources sometimes (although not to determine common name) – what usage of Hindi sources are you referring to? I don't think my close relied on anything inappropriate in this area. The RM did link to references that used Sadhguru to refer to someone else; e.g. diff, not that this is a particularly important point. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 05:13, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

We can't use non-English sources to determine common name in this Misplaced Pages, and editors opposed to RM were going against that rule. That diff pretty much says something like "sky is red" because it is aimed to confuse readers and misrepresent 3 different English spellings than identify existence of any other notable or even non-notable "Sadhguru". Assessment of the validity of the argument is important, not just dependance on mere existence of the argument because chances are high that arguments can be disingenuous. This is why I also said that difference between support and oppose count clearly speaks volumes. Rzvas (talk) 07:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Can you point to the problematic argument that you have in mind? I didn't notice one, and I don't think I took such an argument into account when closing. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:06, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

The RM did link to references that used Sadhguru to refer to someone else... ErikHaugen, were any of those references found in reliable sources? Certainly the ones cited in the diff you quoted above are not. Proboards.com doesn't make the cut, LOL. In any case, you're right it doesn't matter much, because even if Sadhguru refers to others, this use is clearly primary. I'll just add that just because it's used as an honorific in some cases, it is clearly used as his most common name in independent reliable sources like in the NY Times I cited below. That does matter, and much. --В²C ☎ 01:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn and rename to the proposed title. I was involved: originally closed in favor of the move, reverted my close upon learning the discussion was still ongoing, and eventually weighed in in favor of the move. I was so taken aback when I read this close that I even commented about it on a colleague's talk page, asking for SmokeyJoe to do a "sanity check". Upon further reflection the closing comment still seems like a super vote to me. In fact, you could copy/paste the words verbatim into a !vote comment and it would work just fine. I don't see much evidence of a reading of consensus. I think the close reflects the opinion of the closer about what should happen, not a reflection of what consensus is about what should happen. The closer takes it as a given that "Sadhguru" is an honorific despite that very point being challenged (in this case this particular spelling has become this particular person's name) and largely not accepted by the participants. And on that basis alone he decided the title should not be changed. This was a super vote, not a good close, and the call was opposite of consensus. --В²C ☎ 18:35, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

  I can't argue with much in SmokeyJoe's reply, although some of it is slightly off topic. I think most of it is repeated in SJ's section above; definitely worth a read. I would say most of my closes read like a !vote, since I explain the rationale. Hopefully explaining is ok to do :) You did challenge whether it is an honorific, true, but a) I don't think your argument was compelling, b) I don't think anyone else thought it was, and c.) there was a very compelling counterargument (including noting that the subject is sometimes referred to by the other spellings!). Ultimately, this line of reasoning for discarding WP:HONORIFIC simply did not carry the day. I think the rest of this has been addressed above; e.g. you seem to be brushing off the main arguments such as COMMONNAME's insistence on independent sources, etc. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 05:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  You keep bringing that up as if it’s relevant here. First, the only person bringing up this distinction of usage in “independent“ sources in the original discussion was you in your supervote close; it was not an argument at the RM, much less a “main” one. Second, many independent sources confirm he is known as Sadhguru, including The NY Times. Third, it doesn’t matter that they also give his other name. They explicitly say he is known as Sadhguru and that’s how they refer to him in the rest of the article. That’s the ‘’quintessential’’ example of WP:COMMONNAME. Finally, we’re not supposed to re-argue the original RM here; note I’m countering the closer’s arguments. I’m really just demonstrating how the close was a supervote, perhaps the most blatant one I’ve ever seen. —В²C ☎ 06:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Beddie, Allaina (April 25, 2016). "My Meditation Binge, in a nutshell". NY Times. Retrieved November 26, 2018. the Indian yogi and mystic Jaggi Vasudev, known as Sadhguru

• The need for independent sources was discussed quite at length in the RM; it really seems like you haven't read it, if you didn't notice that. this is but one example. as if it’s relevant here – it's kind of central to COMMONNAME. ‘’quintessential’’ example of WP:COMMONNAME – yes, some articles do that! Many others don't; see the RM. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:04, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  My point: nobody but you used the term independent in the original RM discussion, yet you relied on that heavily in your closing "explanation" of your supposed reading of consensus. The duty to rely on reliable sources (like the NY Times I just cited above, and many others cited in the original discussion) to determine WP:COMMONNAME goes without saying in all RM discussions involving COMMONNAME determination. Reliable sources were used to support the COMMONNAME argument. Here's another one, from the CBC: . The bottom line is this: the definition of COMMONNAME is "a natural language word or expression that indicates the subject of the article". Further, COMMONNAME states: Misplaced Pages "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)" It was repeatedly and abundantly shown in the RM discussion that Sadhguru indicates the subject of the article AND is most commonly used in independent, reliable sources to refer to this subject, and you, the closer, simply ignored all that. Frankly, I'm disappointed that you're not acknowledging your obvious error. --В²C ☎ 19:39, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  My point: nobody but you used the term independent – Wha? Why on earth would it matter if other words were used to express the same idea? If that is your point, then frankly, I'm disappointed in your point. :) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 22:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  shown in the RM discussion that Sadhguru ... is most commonly used in independent... sources – Much better! This is actually relevant – if you're right, then maybe I screwed up, and HONORIFIC doesn't come in to play – like Lorde or something. Power Enwiki, above, observed independent sources tend to use both approximately equally. I was basing my close on an observation similar to that after carefully reading the RM; the name and the title are both used regularly in independent rel: sometimes both, sometimes one in the title of the source and the other in the body, and so on. IF that observation is on target, HONORIFIC makes it clear what to do: don't use the title. I don't think anyone really argued in the RM that HONORIFIC doesn't say that. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 22:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  COMMONNAME refers to independent and reliable sources. RM participants referred to reliable ones. You, uniquely, focused on the independent aspect. That's raising an issue others did not raise; It's not other words expressing the same idea; independent is not the same idea as reliable. That's why your close was supervoting. As to what HONORIFIC says, you're again assuming the unique spelling with the h is never-the-less an honorofic, but that aside, even if it is, consider this: Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it, it should be included.. Where is Sadhguru written about in independent reliable sources and NOT called Sadhguru? It's rarely found. QED. --В²C ☎ 22:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  You, uniquely, focused on the independent aspect. That's raising an issue others did not raise – you said this earlier, and I replied to it, giving an example proving it wrong. Did you see that? Here's another one. What's going on here B2C? It's rarely found. – Several were given in the RM, and see just above in xray's "12:29, 27 November 2018" comment? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:06, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  Both of those links to comments from the RM discussion the participant was referring to reliable sources, not independent ones. In this latest one they refer to RS, not IS. I don't deny that a few source citations can be found that don't refer to him as Sadhguru, and they have been cited. My point is they are rare, and, since they are rare, the whole argument about not using it per HONORIFIC evaporates. --В²C ☎ 23:19, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

  They say things like "Unplugged with Sadhguru" is a promotional video.... – the point being that because it is not an independent source, it does not count (much) toward COMMONNAME. (that is what COMMONNAME says, also). This editor, in the RM, is invoking a point about COMMONNAME and independent sources without using the words independent, common, or name. May seem weird, but it happens all the time. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 00:24, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse – I was not involved, and know nothing about this guy, but I've reviewed the RM discussion, the close, and the discussion above, and it appears to me that the close was very sensible in light of the evidence and opinions presented, and in light of our title policy and style guidelines. In short, the name is more appropriate than the honorific, as many argued and guidelines support. Dicklyon (talk) 03:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon: Those who argued against the proposal were only making non-policy based disingenuous argument by misrepresenting sources in Hindi language sources, which is against the policy on naming convention in this Misplaced Pages. Which reliable sources say that it is an "honorific"? It seems that "Sadhguru" is reserved only for this person. Unless that name is being used to refer anyone else other than him then we can dispute it as honorific, but "Sadhguru" is reserved only for this person and no one has provided any other notable or even non-notable individual who is referred as "Sadhguru". WP:COMMONNAME or WP:PRIMARYTOPIC are not supporting an uncommon name like "Jaggi Vasudev", but "Sadhguru". Rzvas (talk) 05:06, 1 December 2018 (UTC) sign to re-ping Rzvas (talk) 19:03, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I would like to remind others of WP:NOTAVOTE here since the concerns raised by OP are not being answered by those who are endorsing the closer. Here are the concerns that needs to be resolved:

• 1) If "Sadhguru" is honorific according to reliable sources and if it is really being used for any other notable individual in English language source.
• 2) If "Jaggi Vasudev" is a more common name in English sources.

It doesn't make any sense to endorse the closer as long as these these questions lack a valid answer with proper evidence. Rzvas (talk) 05:06, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse, retain Jaggi Vasudev: (I participated in the RM. The article and the entire topic is sock and COI central. And then there are the people who are trying to game the system now as well.) I've presented most of my arguments in the original RM; please read through them as well as some of the replies to other users. I'm going to address the arguments posted by the only-1-month-old-but-experienced account, Qualitist, here:

• Absolutely incorrect because this month alone, the "independent reliable sources" referred him as Sadhguru.

Firstly, boomlive.in and azertag.az are not "independent reliable sources". Neither is indiapost.com which Qualitist possibly misunderstood to be the same as indiapost.gov.in. The cited indiapost.com article is also either an advertorial or syndicated drivel which is evident from the "To learn more visit: InnerEngineering.com or contact us at IECSupport@innerengineering.com" footer text. The Isha foundation is a business built upon promoting its founder and they appear to heavily use SEO to promoted said business and founder. Misplaced Pages is an arm of their SEO business.

As I've noted in my RM arguments, the aggregator-in-chief of online news that is Google News classifies news about "Jaggi Vasudev" and "Sadhguru" under "Jaggi Vasudev". (1, 2)

• There is a clear absence of any other "Sadhguru" than this individual. No one else is referred as "Sadhguru", except this individual. No reliable sources have used "Sadhguru" and "Satguru" as interchangeable terms so far. The argument of "honorific" was completely WP:OR and misleading. If there was really any honorific called "Sadhguru" then we should seeing other any notable individual being referred as "Sadhguru".

Qualitist is interestingly leaving out the homophonous Sadguru from his list of variants. And there is nothing OR about Satguru, Sadguru, or Sadhguru being honorifics. As WP:NCIN attests, Guru, Jagadguru, Gurudev etc. are honorifics. Sadguru is a lesser form of Jagadguru, the "world teacher".

I have provided a list of Satgurus and Sadgurus (plenty of whom are on Misplaced Pages) in my RM arguments.

And it's easy enough to find a number of references to other Sadhgurus besides Jaggi if you play with combinations of these honorifics. See for example, "Sadhguru+Swamigal" "Sadhguru Swamigal", "Sri+Sadhguru" "Sri Sadhguru", etc. There's even one resident here on Misplaced Pages: Sri Sadhguru Sadhu Laxman Rao Ji Maharaj.

After my mention, someone deemed it fit to move Sri Sadhguru Sadhu Laxman Rao Ji Maharaj to draft space.

As for reliable sources not using Sadguru and Sadhguru synonymously, consider possibly the most reliable of India's newspapers, The Hindu, which also prints columns by Vasudev as Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev or just Jaggi Vasudev. It's easy enough to find this variant being used in other papers as well.

Even if you consider Vasudev's official site alone, you can see that plenty of people "sadguru" use Sadhguru and Sadguru interchangeably. They are actually spelling it correctly as it is written in Indic scripts. It is also worth noting that all the Indian language wikis I checked only use Jaggi Vasudev as the title because there is no silent h-like artefact that they can use to make the Sadguru honorific seemingly unique to Jaggi Vasudev.

Jaggi Vasudev himself calls his 'past-life persona' Sadhguru Shree Brahma. So he possibly sees himself as one in a line of Sadhgurus.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 21:14, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Overturn and rename - I have been reading this discussion for days so far I have came to conclusion that there was no reason provided in the closing note that why we should be ignoring WP:COMMONNAME. Oppose comments however obfuscated words of Hindi and English to somehow make it appear that the proposed title is a known honorific which can be best described as unconvincing original research which was not supported by reliable sources. Still the closer seems to have fell for it, which is itself doing nothing but setting a bad precedent that we need to give more weight to original research than findings supported by reliable sources and ultimately WP:TITLE itself. No argument was made if the real name is more written in "independent reliable sources"(or if this was mentioned in discussion at all) contrary to the closing note. There are too many reasons to believe that the close was a supervote. Lorstaking (talk) 05:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Category:Cars (closed)

Greco-Buddhist art

Greco-Buddhist art (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

Closing editor Frayae has been blocked as a sock of a WMF banned editor. I already discussed the problems with closure with him.

My discussion with closing editor shows that they don't understand what is WP:CON and WP:CLOSE and think that if enough people claim on talk page that "2+3=1000" then we should not be stating "2+3=5". Frayae believes in head count over WP:RS and WP:COMMONNAME when both policies supported the proposed title "Gandhara art" to be 5 times more common name and all reliable sources state that both names "Greco-Buddhist art" and "Gandhara art" are interchangeable.

Frayae has failed to refute these facts. Head count is completely irrelevant because supporting editors like me avoided RM since strong arguments had been already made. Razer(talk) 18:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse. It came out in the discussion on the closer's talk page that the close was actually "no consensus to move" rather than "consensus to not move". The close on the article's talk page could be altered to No consensus ( done); however, the outcome would be the same. The discussion on the closer's talk page should be enough to conclude that it would be okay for editors to return in a few weeks to try again to garner consensus for a page move. From the overall discussion, though, one might glean that to turn the redirect Gandhara art, the target of the RM, into an article on that subject is a more feasible adventure. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    01:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• We are not here to discuss interpretation of terminology used by a WMF banned sock. Would you describe how "no consensus" can be justified? We rely on WP:AT for deciding the consensus, not POV pushing. Same opposing editors will continue saying that 2+2=5 whenever a page move will proposed again. Why do we have to waste time entertaining a non-argument which is not supported by any WP:RS? 2 of the 4 opposes were mostly discussing conduct of proposing editor, not the page move. Do you describe that as consensus? Why we should not move the page to the more common name and keep contradicting reliable sources and policies? Lorstaking (talk) 02:54, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• The reason we are here, the only reason, is to decide if the close was reasonable and consistent with the spirit and intent of Misplaced Pages common practice, policies, or guidelines. My endorsment is clear, and I see no benefit in rearguing the merits of the requested move debate. Best to you! Paine Ellsworth, ed.    03:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

PS. We are not here to discuss either the closer or the blocked nominator of the RM. Such topics are inconsistent with move review discussions. PS added by Paine Ellsworth, ed.    04:03, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse as "no consensus". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Care to explain why? Rzvas (talk) 05:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• The absence of consensus in that discussion is so obviously it doesn't require elaboration. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Could not possibly have been closed as "consensus to move". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comments that don't comply with the policies should be discounted. Only policy based arguments are counted. Oppose votes failed to provide reliable sources while support votes had tons. This is how I see clear consensus to move the page, because there was lack of sensible argument against the page move. Rzvas (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• ec. If you "clear consensus to move the page", I advise you to stop using the word consensus because you do not know what it means. The nomination was poorly considered, and the nominator is now blocked. There was a move to amend the proposal. There was clearly stated opposition. If you believe it needs a rename, wait two months, and then try again with a better prepared nomination statement than was used last time. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• You fail to mention that the closure was made by a sock of a banned editor and nomination was correct because "Gandhara art" is the more WP:COMMON name. Do you have sources to argue against that? My understanding of "consensus" is already described by WP:NHC which explicitly state that closure should be "discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue". The moment you adhere that policy, you would also see clear consensus to move the page.This is what I was saying in my comment above. Rzvas (talk) 06:15, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• An admin should re-close, but I think it must be a "no consensus" close. The discussion as it stood pre-close was such a mess that it should not be relisted, further discussion cannot turn it into a consensus. I further advise you to give up wikilawyering, it is unpersuasive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse as "no consensus" (as a participant in the first discussion). The supporters concentrated exclusively on COMMONNAME arguments, using only one of the spellings (Greco- not Graeco), and ignored the issue of whether the two subjects were the same, which was the main argument of the opposers. The nominationhere might mention that the nominator at the original RM has also been blocked as a sockpuppet. Johnbod (talk) 05:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Nominator has shown numerous reliable sources for backing their argument, while yours is just your personal opinion. "Greco" and "Graeco" are both largely uncommon compared "Gandhara art" or "Gandhara school of art". Either we should move to Gandhara school of art or Gandhara art, they are the two top choices. Current page title is very uncommon. Rest of your comment is also misleading as nominator was not "blocked as a sockpuppet". Rzvas (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support and move to Gandhara art per policy based comments here and the page move discussion. It seems that oppose votes, like the above one (Johnbod) had no argument against the proposed page move and they resorted to what can be described as entirely absurd. We should avoid setting a precedent that we can't modify the article only because some POV pushers don't want us to. Rzvas (talk) 05:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Right, we can see you're a really neutral, level-headed guy! Johnbod (talk) 05:33, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I thought a relist would be a better option had this move involved arguments about POV title, honorific, or there was some dispute over common name. There was no such dispute with this page move. According to the policy, the page had to be moved to Gandhara art even if no one had supported proposed move because there were no arguments that could actually convince against the proposal. Even now, I am open to a relist as a compromise, but we will have to move anyway. Rzvas (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Endorse The purpose of MRV is purely to evaluate the discussion and see if the close was appropriate; whether the closer is a sock has no bearing to whether the discussion has no consensus or a consensus to move etc (as a side note, Dysklyver is not WMF banned). There was clearly no consensus to move in the discussion, as the discussion was split on whether Gandhara art was a different topic from Greco-Buddhist art, and while those supporting the move brought sources in support of them being the same topic, those opposing brought sources too. Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• None of "those opposing" brought sources to support their stance. Which sources said that Greco-Buddhist art is not a synonymous of more common Gandhara art? Lorstaking (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• There has been some progress. Paine Ellsworth has changed "not moved" to "no consensus". Though I hope it was not out of process. Lorstaking (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• That change was consistent with the closer's wishes that were revealed on their talk page, and it is also in line with the closer's statement at the RM, "There is no consensus at this time that Gandhara art is the same topic as Greco-Buddhist art." I left that unchanged except for emphasis of "no consensus". That appears to be consistent with what the closer meant. By all means, feel free to revert my edit if you disagree. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    16:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Question: Just curious as to why the Greco-Buddhist art and Greco-Buddhism articles use hyphens (-) rather than endashes (–) as separators? Ref.: WP:ENDASH. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    04:01, 19 November 2018 (UTC) Struck because there are a lot of similar articles that depict "Greco" as a hyphenated modifier, Greco-Iberian alphabet, Greco-Italian War, Greco-Roman wrestling and so on. Paine Ellsworth, ed.    21:26, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

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