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| ::::::::::::Oh, for Jaysis sake, you really are impossible. I'm not basing any arguement on a Misplaced Pages article, I happen to be an expert on this topic. The Misplaced Pages article just happens to give a perfectly succinct statement of economic egalitarianism. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the topics you criticise or claim to be part of if you think any anarchist (apart from "anarcho"-capitalists") support anything other than an even playing field in economic terms. All the individualists argued for equality of opportunity, which is an example of economic egalitarianism. The quote you have continually used is an example of that, "Liberty will ultimately make all men rich" - greater equality. Anarcho-communists and collectivists, of course, go further, though not as far as people like you claim - they argue for equality of access, but imagine a post-scarcity economy where there is more than enough for everyone. You reject so-called "social" anarchism without knowing what it is or (it seems) even the basic principles, and you claim commonality with individual anarchists while attributing views and arguments to them that they never held. ] 21:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC) | ::::::::::::Oh, for Jaysis sake, you really are impossible. I'm not basing any arguement on a Misplaced Pages article, I happen to be an expert on this topic. The Misplaced Pages article just happens to give a perfectly succinct statement of economic egalitarianism. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the topics you criticise or claim to be part of if you think any anarchist (apart from "anarcho"-capitalists") support anything other than an even playing field in economic terms. All the individualists argued for equality of opportunity, which is an example of economic egalitarianism. The quote you have continually used is an example of that, "Liberty will ultimately make all men rich" - greater equality. Anarcho-communists and collectivists, of course, go further, though not as far as people like you claim - they argue for equality of access, but imagine a post-scarcity economy where there is more than enough for everyone. You reject so-called "social" anarchism without knowing what it is or (it seems) even the basic principles, and you claim commonality with individual anarchists while attributing views and arguments to them that they never held. ] 21:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::::So now you base your argument based on authority? With your OR notions I could easily argue that anarcho-capitalism is egalitarian as well. All irrelevant to the discussion. You cannot argue that individualist-anarchism is egalitarian without a reliable source. I have presented a reliable source that says individualist-anarchism are not economic egalitarians. You have presented nothing. ] 20:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC) | :::::::::::::So now you base your argument based on authority? With your OR notions I could easily argue that anarcho-capitalism is egalitarian as well. All irrelevant to the discussion. You cannot argue that individualist-anarchism is egalitarian without a reliable source. I have presented a reliable source that says individualist-anarchism are not economic egalitarians. You have presented nothing. ] 20:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::::::::Fine, clearly you do have a problem understanding plain English, so there is no point in discussing this further with you. You obviously know nothing about anarchism, which proves more than anything else that "anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists. I think it's time to look for binding arbitration on this page. ] 21:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Here's a quote from another nineteenth century individualist, ]: "In a world where inequality of ability is inevitable, anarchists do not sanction any attempt to produce equality by artificial or authoritarian means. The only equality they posit and will strive their utmost to defend is the equality of opportunity. This necessitates the maximum amount of freedom for each individual. This will not necessarily result in equality of incomes or of wealth but will result in returns proportionate to services rendered. Free competition will see to that."] 18:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC) | ::::::Here's a quote from another nineteenth century individualist, ]: "In a world where inequality of ability is inevitable, anarchists do not sanction any attempt to produce equality by artificial or authoritarian means. The only equality they posit and will strive their utmost to defend is the equality of opportunity. This necessitates the maximum amount of freedom for each individual. This will not necessarily result in equality of incomes or of wealth but will result in returns proportionate to services rendered. Free competition will see to that."] 18:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC) | ||
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A full list of talkpage archives can be found here:Talk:Anarchism/Archives
- Posts from Sept. 13 to Sept. 26 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive43. Hogeye 18:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- Posts from 2006-09-27 to 2006-10-06 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive44. -- infinity0 00:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- Posts from 2006-10-07 to 2006-11-03 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive45. -- Donnacha 01:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Finally some wolfie sockblocks
I have just now (finally, you may all well say) blocked User:Doctors without suspenders indefinitely as a wolfie sock. Along with User:Radiant hedgehog, User:Aithérios, and, I expect, more to come. It's very difficult to keep so many socks going and never slip up. Bishonen | talk 20:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC).
Discussion on end of civilization
Anarchists input would be appreciated at Talk:End_of_civilization. There seems to be some disagreement what the end of civilization actually means. nirvana2013 00:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Peter Marshall and anarcho-capitalism
I changed this: "However, Peter Marshall says in Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism that "few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp since they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice" to this: "However, Peter Marshall says in Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism that "few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp" because he believes "they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice" in order to make it NPOV - to show it is his POV. I don't think it can be asserted that anarcho-capitalists are not concerned with economic equality and social justice. It depends on how you define economic equality. I'm an anarcho-capitalist and I support economic equality. Economic equality to me means equal economic rights. But if you define economic equality as equal wealth, then anarcho-capitalists do not support that. "Social justice" is another vague term. If the article says that anarcho-capitalists oppose economic equality and social justice then these things should be defined.Anarcho-capitalism 20:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Actually Peter Marshall is incorrect, because the consequence of his thesis is to remove individualist anarchism from the "anarchist camp" as well. From Benjamin Tucker's Instead of a Book (as quoted in Madison 1943):
| “ | Liberty will abolish interest; it will abolish profit; it will abolish monopolistic rent; it will abolish taxation; it will abolish the exploitation of labor; it will abolish all means whereby any laborer can be deprived of any of his product; but it will not abolish the limited inequality between one laborer's product and another's....Liberty will ultimately make all men rich; it will not make all men equally rich." (emphasis mine) | ” |
- Peter Marshall thus represents a marginal view which is moreover incorrect, and his statement should accordingly be removed. Which I will do. Intangible 02:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is Original Research to decide whether or not a properly cited source is correct or not and to remove it for that reason. It is not Peter Marshall's view that "few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp because they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice", it is the view of the vast majority of anarchists who reject "anarcho-capitalism" because of its support for extreme economic inequality and hatred of any form of social activism. Donnacha 09:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is a marginal view to say that anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism. But Marshall goes even further and says that individualist anarchism is not anarchism. It would be given undue weight to the views of Marshall if they were to be entered. Just because someone wrote a book, does not mean any of the book text should be entered into Misplaced Pages. Please review WP:NPOV. Intangible 16:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- No it isn't a marginal view, the vast majority of anarchists oppose capitalism and, thus, view "anarcho"-capitalism as a contradiction in terms. Marshall cites the view of that majority that it is not anarchism. It's not his view, he doesn't argue anything, he quite correctly presents the opinion of the thousands, if not millions, of anarchists around the world who reject "anarcho"-capitalism. It's quite simple, anarchism is about equality and freedom. Oppose equality, you oppose freedom and thus anarchism. QED: "Anarcho"-capitalism is not anarchism. While so-called "social" anarchists (a term not generally used by those who are considered under it) criticise elements of mutualism and individualism, we recognise that they believed that what they argued for would lead to greater, if not absolute (which is an impossibility anyway) equality. The same is not true of anyone who supports the private control of the means of production and, thus, wage slavery (defined as a situation whereby an individual must sell their labour to meet their needs, not as as a system where people choose to work for another). Despite the lies about anarcho-communism spread by its opponents, we do not oppose working for a wage, we argue instead that voluntary association in a non-monetary system is a better option. Most of us envisage mixed economies with individual holdings beside communes beside collectives, co-operatives and mutualist set-ups. Donnacha 18:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- "oney, wages, and trade would be abolished" -Kropotkin And, "anarcho"-communists will only allow an amount of individual holdings that they believe "necessary" for those individuals that don't want to join the communist system. Anything above that amount would be stolen. Kropotkin said if a family doesn't want to join the communist system, then he would allow them "a house which affords them just as much space as under present average conditions of life, are considered necessary for that number of people." Well isn't that generous of him.Anarcho-capitalism 18:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Donnacha, what about "it will not abolish the limited inequality between one laborer's product and another's....Liberty will ultimately make all men rich; it will not make all men equally rich" don't you understand? Intangible 18:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Do you have a problem with English? "would lead to greater, if not absolute (which is an impossibility anyway) equality". That's exactly the same point - everyone rich=greater equality. Not equally rich - not absolute equality. Donnacha 00:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- You miss the point. The aim of market anarchists is to raise the wealth of everyone by keeping state interference out of the market - laissez-faire. It will result in the elimination of poverty but it will not lead to equal wealth. It could very well lead to increased inequality in terms of wealth or income - we don't know for sure. But, if the choice is between equal wealth and liberty, we market anarchists will choose liberty. It doesn't matter if the next guy has more money than me as long as we both have the right to private property and trade.Anarcho-capitalism 01:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Donnacha, this is not what Marshall is saying. Marshall is quite explicit in referring to "economic inequality," a kind of inequality that also exist under liberty according to individualist anarchism. Therefore Marshall's statement is useless. If you want to continue this discussion, you should first find sources that can support your claim. From Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines: "Talk pages...are a forum to discuss how the different points of view obtained from secondary sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral and objective (which may mean including conflicting viewpoints). The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material." You have not done that. Intangible 07:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Strawman after strawman after strawman - try responding to the things I actually write. Marshall is a secondary source, he's describing the view of most anarchists. As one of those, I agree with what he says. Thus, his quote is correct about those to whom he attributes the view. Economic inequality, as referred to by Marshall, is the fundamental element of anarchism, the element that excludes "anarcho"-capitalism. Economic inequality is private ownership of the means of production and the system of wage slavery. Economic inequality doesn't mean financial inequality in the sense that a has more than b, it means economic inequality where economic power is concentrated in the hands of the owners of capital. Good jaysus, this is basic stuff. Marshall doesn't define it in that specific section because it's the basic theme of the entire history of anarchism. It's what the bloody book is about! Donnacha 10:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is neither here not there to talk about the rest of the book, one is only concerned with that particular statement Marshall made. I've shown that Marschall is inconsistent, namely that he is making a logical error in dismissing anarcho-capitalism from the anarchist camp because of "economic inequalities," while these "economic inequalities" exist for individualist anarchism as well. You here are the only one making strawman arguments, I have shown a coherent and logical argument, based on third party statements, while you are just relying on what you think is "true," a WP:OR notion at best. Intangible 15:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Complete claptrap. As it states quite succinctly in the Economic egalitarianism article here "Economic egalitarianism is a state of affairs in which the members of a society are of equal standing in terms of economic power or wealth. It is a founding principle of various forms of socialism." (emphasis mine) Economic egalitarianism is the same thing as economic equality. Thus, the views of the individualists about creating a level playing field where some people, due to greater talent or effort, might end up richer than others, falls under this definition. Any form of Capitalism, which retains economic hierarchies, does not. Marshall doesn't "define the term" in that quote because anyone who knows anything about radical politics knows well what it means. Finally, it is completely POV and OR to remove a properly quoted and cited piece of criticism because you either don't agree with it or think it's incorrect. I disagree with most criticisms of libertarian communism from all parties and think they're incorrect, yet I do not seek to remove references to them once their properly placed in criticisms sections. Donnacha 16:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- You accuse me of OR, while you base your argument on an unsourced Misplaced Pages article?! There is nothing in individualist anarchism that even remotely comes close to your unsourced "economic egalitarianism" notion. The only equality individualist anarchists believe in is that of equal liberty, self-ownership for all. Nothing more, nothing less. Intangible 20:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, for Jaysis sake, you really are impossible. I'm not basing any arguement on a Misplaced Pages article, I happen to be an expert on this topic. The Misplaced Pages article just happens to give a perfectly succinct statement of economic egalitarianism. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the topics you criticise or claim to be part of if you think any anarchist (apart from "anarcho"-capitalists") support anything other than an even playing field in economic terms. All the individualists argued for equality of opportunity, which is an example of economic egalitarianism. The quote you have continually used is an example of that, "Liberty will ultimately make all men rich" - greater equality. Anarcho-communists and collectivists, of course, go further, though not as far as people like you claim - they argue for equality of access, but imagine a post-scarcity economy where there is more than enough for everyone. You reject so-called "social" anarchism without knowing what it is or (it seems) even the basic principles, and you claim commonality with individual anarchists while attributing views and arguments to them that they never held. Donnacha 21:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- So now you base your argument based on authority? With your OR notions I could easily argue that anarcho-capitalism is egalitarian as well. All irrelevant to the discussion. You cannot argue that individualist-anarchism is egalitarian without a reliable source. I have presented a reliable source that says individualist-anarchism are not economic egalitarians. You have presented nothing. Intangible 20:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Fine, clearly you do have a problem understanding plain English, so there is no point in discussing this further with you. You obviously know nothing about anarchism, which proves more than anything else that "anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists. I think it's time to look for binding arbitration on this page. Donnacha 21:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- So now you base your argument based on authority? With your OR notions I could easily argue that anarcho-capitalism is egalitarian as well. All irrelevant to the discussion. You cannot argue that individualist-anarchism is egalitarian without a reliable source. I have presented a reliable source that says individualist-anarchism are not economic egalitarians. You have presented nothing. Intangible 20:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, for Jaysis sake, you really are impossible. I'm not basing any arguement on a Misplaced Pages article, I happen to be an expert on this topic. The Misplaced Pages article just happens to give a perfectly succinct statement of economic egalitarianism. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the topics you criticise or claim to be part of if you think any anarchist (apart from "anarcho"-capitalists") support anything other than an even playing field in economic terms. All the individualists argued for equality of opportunity, which is an example of economic egalitarianism. The quote you have continually used is an example of that, "Liberty will ultimately make all men rich" - greater equality. Anarcho-communists and collectivists, of course, go further, though not as far as people like you claim - they argue for equality of access, but imagine a post-scarcity economy where there is more than enough for everyone. You reject so-called "social" anarchism without knowing what it is or (it seems) even the basic principles, and you claim commonality with individual anarchists while attributing views and arguments to them that they never held. Donnacha 21:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- You accuse me of OR, while you base your argument on an unsourced Misplaced Pages article?! There is nothing in individualist anarchism that even remotely comes close to your unsourced "economic egalitarianism" notion. The only equality individualist anarchists believe in is that of equal liberty, self-ownership for all. Nothing more, nothing less. Intangible 20:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Complete claptrap. As it states quite succinctly in the Economic egalitarianism article here "Economic egalitarianism is a state of affairs in which the members of a society are of equal standing in terms of economic power or wealth. It is a founding principle of various forms of socialism." (emphasis mine) Economic egalitarianism is the same thing as economic equality. Thus, the views of the individualists about creating a level playing field where some people, due to greater talent or effort, might end up richer than others, falls under this definition. Any form of Capitalism, which retains economic hierarchies, does not. Marshall doesn't "define the term" in that quote because anyone who knows anything about radical politics knows well what it means. Finally, it is completely POV and OR to remove a properly quoted and cited piece of criticism because you either don't agree with it or think it's incorrect. I disagree with most criticisms of libertarian communism from all parties and think they're incorrect, yet I do not seek to remove references to them once their properly placed in criticisms sections. Donnacha 16:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is neither here not there to talk about the rest of the book, one is only concerned with that particular statement Marshall made. I've shown that Marschall is inconsistent, namely that he is making a logical error in dismissing anarcho-capitalism from the anarchist camp because of "economic inequalities," while these "economic inequalities" exist for individualist anarchism as well. You here are the only one making strawman arguments, I have shown a coherent and logical argument, based on third party statements, while you are just relying on what you think is "true," a WP:OR notion at best. Intangible 15:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Strawman after strawman after strawman - try responding to the things I actually write. Marshall is a secondary source, he's describing the view of most anarchists. As one of those, I agree with what he says. Thus, his quote is correct about those to whom he attributes the view. Economic inequality, as referred to by Marshall, is the fundamental element of anarchism, the element that excludes "anarcho"-capitalism. Economic inequality is private ownership of the means of production and the system of wage slavery. Economic inequality doesn't mean financial inequality in the sense that a has more than b, it means economic inequality where economic power is concentrated in the hands of the owners of capital. Good jaysus, this is basic stuff. Marshall doesn't define it in that specific section because it's the basic theme of the entire history of anarchism. It's what the bloody book is about! Donnacha 10:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Here's a quote from another nineteenth century individualist, Laurance Labadie: "In a world where inequality of ability is inevitable, anarchists do not sanction any attempt to produce equality by artificial or authoritarian means. The only equality they posit and will strive their utmost to defend is the equality of opportunity. This necessitates the maximum amount of freedom for each individual. This will not necessarily result in equality of incomes or of wealth but will result in returns proportionate to services rendered. Free competition will see to that."Anarcho-capitalism 18:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Do you have a problem with English? "would lead to greater, if not absolute (which is an impossibility anyway) equality". That's exactly the same point - everyone rich=greater equality. Not equally rich - not absolute equality. Donnacha 00:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- No it isn't a marginal view, the vast majority of anarchists oppose capitalism and, thus, view "anarcho"-capitalism as a contradiction in terms. Marshall cites the view of that majority that it is not anarchism. It's not his view, he doesn't argue anything, he quite correctly presents the opinion of the thousands, if not millions, of anarchists around the world who reject "anarcho"-capitalism. It's quite simple, anarchism is about equality and freedom. Oppose equality, you oppose freedom and thus anarchism. QED: "Anarcho"-capitalism is not anarchism. While so-called "social" anarchists (a term not generally used by those who are considered under it) criticise elements of mutualism and individualism, we recognise that they believed that what they argued for would lead to greater, if not absolute (which is an impossibility anyway) equality. The same is not true of anyone who supports the private control of the means of production and, thus, wage slavery (defined as a situation whereby an individual must sell their labour to meet their needs, not as as a system where people choose to work for another). Despite the lies about anarcho-communism spread by its opponents, we do not oppose working for a wage, we argue instead that voluntary association in a non-monetary system is a better option. Most of us envisage mixed economies with individual holdings beside communes beside collectives, co-operatives and mutualist set-ups. Donnacha 18:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is a marginal view to say that anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism. But Marshall goes even further and says that individualist anarchism is not anarchism. It would be given undue weight to the views of Marshall if they were to be entered. Just because someone wrote a book, does not mean any of the book text should be entered into Misplaced Pages. Please review WP:NPOV. Intangible 16:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is Original Research to decide whether or not a properly cited source is correct or not and to remove it for that reason. It is not Peter Marshall's view that "few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp because they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice", it is the view of the vast majority of anarchists who reject "anarcho-capitalism" because of its support for extreme economic inequality and hatred of any form of social activism. Donnacha 09:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Marshall article is a strange article. It's difficult to tell what he is saying. He seems to say here that Benjamin Tucker was an anarcho-capitalist: "The phenomenon of anarcho-capitalism is not however new. With the demise of Benjamin Tucker's journal Liberty in 1907, American individualist anarchism lost its principal voice; but its strain of libertarianism continued to re-emerge occassionally in the offerings of isolated thinkers."Anarcho-capitalism 03:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Anarcho-capitalism
This is getting very tedious. Anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron. Anarchists have already debunked anarcho-capitalism as being a contradiction. You cannot have capitalism without the existence of the state. I will also add once again that no anarchist anthology that I know of includes articles by or about anarcho-capitalists. No anarchist bookstore that I've ever been into has contained any anarcho-capitalist books. Anarcho-capitalism is a nonsensical belief system promoted by a handful of people who don't understand anarchism OR capitalism. Chuck0 23:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- There are plenty of academic sources that discuss anarcho-capitalism, positive and negative. And ancap works are readily available from many on-line bookstores. Intangible 20:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
RfC has been raised against Anarcho-capitalism (talk · contribs)
A conduct dispute Request for Comment has been raised against Anarcho-capitalism. Donnacha 09:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment all you want, but you're not going to be able to get me kicked off of Wipedia, because I haven't committed any of the crimes you and your anti-capitalist cohorts have claimed.Anarcho-capitalism 16:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm responding to the RFC.
First and foremost, it would be lovely if everyone just cooled down and stepped back. This is one sentence in a very large article that is well written and informative. Kudos to all who have obviously worked very hard on it.
The segment on Capitolism begins like this:
"Most anarchist traditions not only seek rejection of the state, but also of capitalism, which they perceive as authoritarian, coercive, and exploitative."
To my mind, this pretty much sums up the mainstream Anarchist view. The sentence in question is this:
"However, Peter Marshall writes in Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism that "few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp since they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice." "
The first sentence already establishes that the Anarcho-Capitalist views on Capitalism are outside the mainstream of Anarchist thought. The second sentence relates Peter Marshall's SUPPOSITION that the viewpoint of most Anarchists to the Anarcho-Capitalist perception of Capitalism WOULD BE negative. While it may be a truism, the quote does not describe a fact.
Everyone seems to agree that the first sentence is a fact, since it has not been argued. A person reading this segment would already understand that the Anarcho-Capitalist view of Capitalism is outside the mainstream of Anarchist thought. A further explaination of that viewpoint, particularly after reading the entire article, is not necessary. Using a supposition is even less necessary.
For the record, I was a member of an Anarchist collective in Chicago for three years. I had no clue there was such a thing as Anarcho-Capitalism. I would tend to believe that there are more Anarchists who know nothing about Anarcho-Capitalism than Anarchists who know about it and actively oppose it.
It would be great if the Anarcho-Capitalists here could put in their segment some information about how Anarcho-Capitalism is different from Libertarianism, because I don't see the difference.
Thanks, NinzEliza 23:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, there's two things here. Firstly, the RFC is about a consistent attitude, not this one sentence. If you look at the RFC page, you'll see numerous example. It would be good if you could leave a comment there after looking at the whole picture. Now, on the paragraph on capitalism, the first line says "Most anarchist traditions", not all. This is a compromise as "anarcho"-capitalism is not part of anarchist tradition, so it is more accurate to say "All anarchist traditions". However, we're not arguing about that. Then we get the "anarcho"-capitalists insisting on adding in their attitude to capitalism, which is an extreme minority view and thus is Undue Weight. However, here we have more compromise - they can add their view only so long as the fact that anarchists reject "anarcho"-capitalism is clearly stated. This is done through a properly cited quote, as per proper policy. Donnacha 13:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Issues Section
Why is the communism para in the issues devoted 90% to explaining which and why some anarchists OPPOSE communism while the capitalism para in the same section is devoted 90% to explaining which and why some anarchists are FOR capitalism. this is an obvious POV issue to anyone of an even remotely neutral stance and i challenge anyone here to review the 2 paragraphs and maintain there is not a POV problem. one deals with which anarchists are pro-capitalism while the other deals with which anarchists are anti-communism. what the fuck? if the majority of the communism para is going to explain why certain anarchists have a problem with communism than the majority of the capitalism para should likewise explain why certian anarchists have a problem with capitalism. this is common sense. i thought i would bring this up here before i do anything about it. Blockader 20:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. That is kind of strange. It does say "Most anarchist traditions not only seek rejection of the state, but also of capitalism, which they perceive as authoritarian, coercive, and exploitative." But, probably a few sentences more can be said in criticism.Anarcho-capitalism 20:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Because this page is now dominated by disruptive POV-pushing right-wingers who have exhausted the patience of virtually every other editor on this page. For example. Donnacha 23:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with that. I think most of the POV pushing is coming from anti-anarcho-capitalists.Anarcho-capitalism 01:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well if the POV-pushing is coming from anti-capitalists it is indeed odd that the bulk of most of the articles on non-capitalist ideologies are spent on answering criticisms. Anti-capitalist articles have far more criticism from capitalists and right-wing elements on them than vice versa. The Anarcho-Communist page is underdeveloped compared to the Mutualist, Individualist and Capitalist Anarchism pages and half of it is criticisms from non-anarcho-communists and responses from anarcho-communists. However, the Anarcho-Capitalist page as well as the Individualist and Mutualist Anarchist pages have most of their space dedicated to explaining the theory with a relatively small section of criticism. Full Shunyata 01:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Rather than spending time on a lengthy refutation of the Anarcho-Capitalist view of Capitalism, it would be helpful to expand the mainstream Anarchist view of Capitalism. This is what Blockader was asking for, and Anarcho-Capitalism supports this. NinzEliza 23:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- That would involve citing any number of anarchist magazines, journals and books. I have a whole basement full of these materials containing anarchists writing about capitalism. Of course, citing this vast body of written works would involve doing actual research, which is anathema to Wikipedians who prefer to pull "facts" out of their collective asses. Chuck0 23:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Is chumbawumba really the most famous UK Anarchist band??
i live in the uk, and i have never heard of chumbawumba, on the other hand bands such as the sex pistols (who use anarchist themes) and the Clash, are world famous. I think this is a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ] (] • ])
- Please, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The Clash were Marxists and supporters of the Sandinistas. The Sex Pistols were an elaborate joke. Neither were active anarchists. Chumbawamba, on the other hand, were politically active in Leeds AFA, Class War and numerous other anarchist campaigns. Also, there is no way you've never heard 'Tubthumping' ("I get a vodka drink, I get a whiskey drink"). Donnacha 13:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)