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SPUI.. again

How does everyone feel about a community ban on SPUI? After two blocks for adding the SQUIDWARD edit summaries he stopped. But as soon as he returned, he was blocked for 31 hours for a 3RR violation. It's becoming very obvious that he is coming to Misplaced Pages to disrupt with every edit he makes and not to contribute positively. semper fi — Moe 19:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

All prior warnings, notices, and recommendations that he stop become covered by an admin. Yes, you can revert so that it is visible, but when its been covered several times, recovering becomes an incredible hassle. Looking at his block log and his recent edits, it seems as if he does not want to constructively contribute to Misplaced Pages after "leaving." How many "second chances" must we give this destructive user? Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. He's had too many chances. --Kbdank71 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to see SPUI community-banned. He's made a lot of good encyclopedic edits, and I think he's a good user. OK, so he had a moment of madness, but he's a decent editor, IMHO. --SunStar Net 19:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

God let's end this already. Yes, he was a very prolific contributer, but I don't think he's here to be constructive anymore. Also, all my recent real-life experiences tell me that I would rather have someone who contributes less but doesn't cause any trouble, than someone like this. Grandmasterka 19:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

His 3RR block is kind of odd. He reverted the featured article of the day 4 times by removing what he considered was unsourced original research, and then reported himself on the en-wiki mailing list. Thatcher131 19:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Categorizing his recent 3RR block as typical of any past disruption he may have been involved with is not fair, IMO. Even the best editors go into 3RR from time to time, and this specific instance involved enforcing the Misplaced Pages original research policy on the article that sat on the front page all day. Whether he's exhausted the community's patience, I have no real input on, although I think he does valuable work here. But let's not try to frame this specific instance from yesterday as part of anything greater than what it was. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)...or as Thatcher said above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose community banning. SPUI deserves an RFC to start with anyway, not some AN/I discussion. Bastiq▼e 19:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

We tried that. Others came and defended him, ignoring the evidence. WP:RFC/SPUI --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The current popular principle behind a community block is that if no admin will unlbock then the block was probably OK. That isn's going to hapen with SPUI.Geni 19:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose community ban. He is hardly contributing and not really a problem now. If he is indefblocked for something he has recently done, I will unblock him after a reasonable amount of time. Kusma (討論) 19:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because he's hardly contributing doesn't mean he hasn't been a problem. Ever since the beginning of October he has been a problem. Lets look at the facts shall we:

• October 12-13 he edits with SQUIDWARD summaries:

He recieves a block: 03:41, 14 October 2006 Lar (Talk contribs) blocked "SPUI (contribs)" with an expiry time of 15 minutes (Please stop SQUIDWARDing...)

• He returns October 23/24 to edit with the SQUIDWARD summaries again:

Blocked again: 05:19, 24 October 2006 Konstable (Talk | contribs) blocked "SPUI (contribs)" with an expiry time of 8 hours (again, please stop SQUIDWARDing)

• He returns on November 3-5 to edit V for Vendetta (film) and it's talk:

Blocked again: 03:35, 5 November 2006 Phil Sandifer (Talk | contribs) blocked "SPUI (contribs)" with an expiry time of 31 hours (Violation of 3RR)

Literally the only edit he hasn't been blocked for in the last month is blanking his talk page with an Image of a duck. semper fi — Moe 19:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Sad, isn't it? Apparently as long as you have some good contributions, you get to act however you want, and your admirers, defenders, whatever, will at best hand out a series of 24 hour (or less) blocks, and at worst, ignore the behavior completely. Can anyone explain why this has been allowed to continue? --Kbdank71 20:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Because he's made 74,000 contributions. Of which 40,000 are probably controversial page moves which have been corrected by new

guidelines now.. :\ semper fi — Moe 20:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, and we have no real method of knowing which contributions are constructive. The page moves did nothing but create mass controversy and led many editors to quit in disgust. It's even worse when one or two admins reverted his blocks because he was such a good editor. I'll repeat what Lar spoke of during some controversy that SPUI created: "No one editor is indispensable to the project." If SPUI becomes a nuisance, then he should not be able to contribute in that manner; yes, he made good edits, but so have we, and the project continues forward. Whether or not we have SPUI is irrelevant; there will always be other editors to take his place, as clearly demonstrated today. After his "leave", we still have editors on road topics throughout all 50 states that do fine without SPUI. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because we're here to contribute? On a more serious note, I don't see what exactly is bannable here. Prior to the V 3RR thing, he got blocked for using weird edit summaries on edits that either attempted to remove OR marginally-encyclopedic material or were RfA votes. His second block was for squidward edit summaries on two talk pages. How is this significantly more grounds for banning than using no summary at all? Are people that bothered to see "squidward" on the RC list twice in two days (in latter case)? I agree with Jeff on the description of the V incident. --user:Qviri 20:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You need to review all of his prior blocks to get a good idea of how much he's gotten away with... Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

SQUIDWARD! is the name fast-pace vandal. The vandal generally gave the edit summary SQUIDWARD! as he was vandalizing. SPUI copyign that was inappropriate, whether he was vandalizing or not. semper fi — Moe 22:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's because the case is not made at present. If the guy is reporting himself for 3RR, then it may be WP:POINT, but it's hardly serial disruption. Basically, we can't see how he's going to behave after the last block. He has built up a lot of animosity from some people, and they're very ready to get the gallows ready, but I don't see him currently earning the noose. I think it has to be an unrepentant pattern, and the only unrepenting problem was the edit summaries, and now he's repented. Geogre 20:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The 3RR may not be serial disruption. What would you call the remainder of his block log? And so what if he's repented? Maybe it's just me, but to see problem, repent, problem, repent, problem, repent, would seem to indicate we have a problem with more than just SPUI. Look, I make no assumptions that this will go anywhere; as I said, there are too many people willing to overlook too much. --Kbdank71 21:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It was a serial disruption when SPUI was disrupting page after page with his own naming conventions. It's been done in the past, which should not be overlooked. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 01:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely: it should not be overlooked, and I wouldn't advocate turning the other way. The question isn't, I hope, all or nothing. I just didn't see anything going on since that nasty episode. If it does, I'll be on board with a community ban, but I think community bans should be when the other person isn't acting out of an interpretation of what's best for Misplaced Pages. When the other person is misinterpreting or being petulant about their views of policy and practice, ArbCom's deliberative process should be best. When a person is just exhausting everyone by insisting after a clearly settled issue or pride or a desire to play gotcha with someone or a desire to settle political scores (real life ones, like the nationalists and monomaniacs), then it's community patience. That's my view, anyway. Geogre 02:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's my take on the situation. Give him a block that will actually prevent him from disrupting (a few days or so). See how he acts then. If he socks during, or continues acting up after, then I think that should remove some doubt. --InShaneee 03:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah why not? A community ban for a few days? Or a week? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

A short block with the intention if we can bait a user into sockpuppeting is not something I could ever support. However, a permanent community ban for SPUI, who has committed many, many times more infractions and disruptions than plenty of other permabanned users, has ignored countless requests, decisions and judgements, and is bizarrely and inexplicably supported by some admins (is he nice to them on IRC?), and has driven good editors away from Misplaced Pages, is something I would get behind. This needs to go to ArbCom, and this needs to be resolved. Proto::type 12:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose any community ban through ANI. This better be taken through an RfC. — Nearly Headless Nick 12:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Note, it's been taken through RfC before... He's exhausted all of our patience, and its senseless to keep taking it to ANI, RfC, etc. if the outcome is going to be the same: status quo. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what a short block would solve either. While I've given SPUI blocks in the past to try to get him to stop being disruptive, maybe those just don't work with him. On the other hand I DO think he adds value and would hate to see him permanently banned. Is there nothing else? No other way to reach him and get at whatever the root issue is? I guess I am more willing than some to keep trying with SPUI. But in the end Misplaced Pages is not... a lot of things, including a selfhelp org for those that don't want to change, or a babysitting service, or a group therapy session, or a twelve step program, among others. If there is no change possible then, so be it. One more chance maybe but, really, no more. (as an aside, I totally reject the notion Badlydrawnjeff advances above, that "even the best editors go into 3RR sometimes" I've never, ever, ever done that...) ++Lar: t/c 12:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I longer short block than before would accomplish something in the fact that it would actually prevent him from doing something, whereas the previous blocks of a few minutes/hours it has been suggested he may not have even noticed (I did not mean to 'draw out' sockpuppets as suggested above; I merely meant that a preventative block must actually prevent something to be effective). --InShaneee 16:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've had enough of this. He needs to be banned. Now. ANYONE who has the mentality that they can do whatever the hell want, like SPUI clearly does, should be blocked. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 12:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok... so when the huge edit war over road names he was involved with wound up with a decision he opposed being forced through in unusual circumstances despite a lack of true consensus (again, there were reasons this had to be done and as one of the people who backed it I am here criticizing myself) the 'massively disruptive' reaction he had was to continue making valid contributions, but using the edit summary "SQUIDWARD". For this heinous crime he was blocked... twice. Then, when asked to stop using such summaries... he did! Dastardly. Instead, he went and explained that he was making changes to a new page to remove original research... some sort of theory about how the 'V' in 'V for Vendetta' was probably a reference to the roman numeral for five. That looks like original research to me. Removing it with explanatory edit summaries was therefor... proper. Edit warring when it was re-inserted was not, but seems hardly grounds for a community ban. It seems to me that SPUI is giving his detractors thin pretexts to demonstrate their bias and animosity towards him... and they are happily obliging. SPUI is not being a model Wikipedian, but as reactions to brow-beating and tossing consensus out the window go this isn't exactly the end of the world. --CBD 16:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree CBD. We shouldn't be simply community ban someone for a 3RR or for a few mild edit summaries, but when is enough, enough? His edits aren't as much as the problem as the attitude and straight-fowardness of his edits. It's not that his edits are wrong, but he pushes the issue until his opposition either gives up or a third party gets involved or blocks him. Really how many things has he done that has gotten himself blocked over his time on Misplaced Pages. Just to name a few:

• Moving Highway articles a lot
• Move warring
• 3RR violations
• Incivilty
• POINT violations
• Blatant vandalism
• Disruption
• personal attacks
• Copyright violations
• Testing Misplaced Pages's browser blocking code on User:SPUI/jajaja
• per ArbCom decisions for putting pro-pedophile userboxes on his userpage
• Probation violations
• SQUIDWARD! edit summaries

Again, he may not be wrong, but the way he edits is disruptive and non-helpful. It's not a question anymore of how useful or correct he was a year ago or a few months ago as some people agrue. We have community banned former administrators before. SPUI has made several useful contributions before, no question, but so have other banned editors. How far do we push each ourselves with SPUI? How far before we say 'enough'? semper fi — Moe 17:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You ask 'how far'. My standard is quite simple... 'has it reached the point where it seems clear this user will never be a positive contributor'? I look at 'squidward', a 3RR violation in pursuit of 'no original research', and ducks in a pram and see 'silly git'... not 'irrational monster beyond all hope of redemption'. Everything else you list up there is what, months old? And many of them seemed, to me, as much over-reactions and misrepresentations as the accusations of 'blatant vandalism' which accompanied his silly 'squidward' edit summaries (despite no vandalism actually being involved). To put it another way... SPUI made positive contributions, but put a silly 'squidward' edit summary on them. He was then falsely accused of vandalism and a community ban called for. His reaction? He issued no personal attacks, made no disruptive edits, and stopped using the silly edit summary. Where I come from that's called a phenomenal improvement in behaviour compared to the SPUI from months back you describe above. So where the indication that he is a bad bad man who will never do any good? --CBD 18:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I rephrase my question. It's been over one month since he has contributed without getting blocked. How long do we put up with his nonsense before he becomes a 'positive' contributor again? semper fi — Moe 19:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Your framing assumes that blocks for 'squidward' edit summaries were valid. I don't believe they were. 'How long without being blocked' isn't much of a standard when blocks are placed for things which represent no real 'damage' or 'disruption' to Misplaced Pages at all. To my way of thinking, SPUI has made exactly ONE block-worthy edit in that time period... his fourth revert on the 'V' original research. --CBD 19:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The only reason the blocks for the squidward edit summaries may not have been valid is because he was never warned about it. After sternly warned, yes, he stopped. But does that excuse him from copying the well-known vandal edit-summary? If I suddenly started using those edit summaries and continued after a block (and yes SPUI did), would that not be disruption? semper fi — Moe 22:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The other concern is that he has chased many users away from Misplaced Pages (names can be provided on request) directly or indirectly because of his actions. And made the highways area an unpleasant place to work. Also, SPUI has not made any uncontroversial mainspace edits in over two months (uncontroversial excluding SQUIDWARD or the 3RR). Not that that necessarily mounts to anything however.... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And in the realm of the truly bizzare...its either a sockpuppet or a fanboy here. Though why be either, I haven't a clue. pschemp | talk 04:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Also Bushcarrot (talk · contribs). —Centrx→talk • 04:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Very well, then. Are we going to continue to argue or actually do something here? // Pilotguy (Cleared to land) 04:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Do we vote? Have a more formal discussion? There is no clear-cut answer here, unless we send this to ArbCom. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what the issue is here. It is really quite easy to not be disruptive. He has had more than 50 chances to do it over the course of a year and a half. —Centrx→talk • 04:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well then who will hit the block button if it is to be done? Discussing it and doing nothing else doesn't help. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who will block him, because someone like CBD will come along and unblock him. Look at his block log; just a series of blocks and unblocks. I'm not going to be the one to start a wheel-war with people who look at his attitude and say, "Eh, it's not THAT bad. Why, 50% of his contributions are completely uncontroversial! What are you all complaining about?" Until someone like Jimbo puts his foot down, SPUI will continue to act like he does, half of you will continue waste your time to undo his shenanigans and argue for his permablock, and the other half will waste their time arguing why he should stay and unblocking any errant blocks. Don't you think all this wasted time could be spent better elsewhere? --Kbdank71 20:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So what you're saying is...if someone's going to inappropriately wheel war...then we can't block appropriately. --InShaneee 20:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, what I'm saying is I'm not going to waste my time blocking SPUI just to see someone unblock him. You can wheel war over him until the cows come home if you think it'll do some good. --Kbdank71 21:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

If someone wheel wars, it should be dealt with. In the meantime, that shouldn't prevent us from making legitimate blocks. It's like saying, "Why bother writing articles, they'll just be vandalized." --InShaneee 21:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So our options at this point are to a) block or b) send this to RFC or ArbCom. Meanwhile, nothing is getting done. As I was involved in the ArbCom stuff it would be conflict of interest to block so in reality I can't. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said before, and will say again, to make the message clear... ban ban ban ban ban ban ban. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 00:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but we might as well take it back to ArbCom. It should not be "300 strikes and you're out", and he's been blocked enough times to make anyone realize that he isn't going to do much of anything that's actually constructive. I'm not 100% sure ArbCom would be able to solve the problem, because they've dealt with him before, and he doesn't seem to have any respect for their decisions. It could still be worth trying, since ArbCom could just decide to indefblock/ban him. An ArbCom block/ban would be less likely to result in a wheel war. --Coredesat 00:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this matter can be handled without involving ArbCom. The terms are simple: I think we are all agreed that his behavior needs to improve, that he needs to make a serious & sincere effort at playing by the rules; the disagreement appears to be whether he can be convinced to improve or that he is beyond all hope & we have no choice other than to ban him from Misplaced Pages. As constructive as he might be (I haven't followed his edits, but for the sake of argument let's say he is), if SPUI -- or any Wikipedian -- is being disruptive to the point that he has received multiple blocks yet no one cares enough to intervene & save him from a permanent ban, then the community has made its decision & clearly wants him gone. So is there anyone who is working with SPUI offline from Misplaced Pages with the aim of improving his behavior & avoid having him banned from this project & losing his constructive contributions? If there is, I hope that would be enough to convince the "Ban SPUI" faction to have some patience & give him one more -- even if it is only his last -- chance. If there is not, & no one is willing to volunteer to help SPUI from being banned, then it's hard not to conclude that the proper solution is a Community Ban. All it would take is for one person to volunteer to work with him to keep him; otherwise, silence is consent & it's clear, despite what some may say, everyone wants him gone. -- llywrch 01:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I am more than willing to assist SPUI in becoming a constructive editor here again as long as he doesn't continue with his extreme forms of silliness. As long as he is willing to be a positive contributor, we can always use another hand on Misplaced Pages. But this my only offer to help the guy, if he continues being disruptive, I'm not going to be as helpful the next go-around. semper fi — Moe 02:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

SPUI can be banned by any administrator from any area he disrupts. If he does not comply with the ban he may be blocked. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Highways#Probation. Any administrator may do this. Fred Bauder 03:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You bring up a good point. We still have the option of banning rather than blocking. Banning being "you can't edit this article anymore because you've disrupted it." --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that CBD's summary of the cause of the current situation is very apt. The 'highways' situation became extremely unpleasant -- SPUI was basically at one point being told that not only would he be sanctioned for not abiding by a non-consensus decision, but that he'd be sanctioned for pointing out that it was a non-consensus decision. (Admittedly he was pointing it out rather frequently, but when a bare majority is repeatedly mischaracterised as a "consensus", a certain feeling of frustration is somewhat understandable.) There's been lots of nonsense and silliness from SPUI before (I've been on the end of a small portion of it myself), but this seems to me to be different. This is sheer surmise and speculation, take it for what it's worth, but it appears to me more that he essentially quit the project over that issue, but due to on-going wikidiction and/or wishing to express residual resentment, isn't quite able to go "cold turkey", and so is making periodic forays back. I'm not especially hopeful this will end well, and in the circumstances, I doubt that "area bans" will be at all useful (since if I'm correct, it'll just force him to find other ways to vent, which he'll rise to the challenge of). I'd urge the community not to take any far-reaching steps just at the moment, but if he doesn't knock it on the head immediately, I'd be in favour of a "medium length" block (a week to a month or two, say) to stop him digging himself in yet deeper in the meantime. Alai 08:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• I would have thought mentorship would be a solution, in a way. --SunStar Net 11:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Motion to ban SPUI

I have made a motion to ban SPUI for a year at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#SPUI Fred Bauder 10:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I support this. If I had to "learn" to behave myself then so should he have. He's had his 1,000 chances and now should cool his heels for a bit. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 04:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have opposed this there, for what it's worth. SPUI can't be banned for a year by that arbitration committee ruling until he has been blocked justifiably under its probation restrictions five times. I count four, at least one of which I feel was unjustifiable. I also feel there is not consensus for a community ban; there is, from what I see, considerable clamor for one, but also some opposition. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 08:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, as long as SPUI watches it and contributes productively I have no problems with him around. Actions such as the Squidward edit summaries will result in an immediate block from me though. In short, as long as SPUI doesn't mess around, I welcome him here. If he wants to be disruptive, then we have to think about measures. Let's not jump the gun here -- Tawker 09:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've found that in most cases once SPUI is blocked once or twice about an issue he stops doing it. The sole exception was what he got an arbcom ruling about - edit warring about highway names (in other words, a genuine content difference, not the silly provocation of most of the other stuff).

We should also be cautious about baiting someone under probation and blocking him for things that if other editors did them would not be blockable offenses. I've on occasion noted a way of thought that goes, "SPUI is a troll, therefore ..." Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So in reality, we're back to where we started. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 19:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not prepared to ban SPUI for a year at this time. I still remain hopeful. If ArbCom so rules I'd be disappointed. ++Lar: t/c 00:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The concern is we've said that so many times, giving SPUI slack, and he then takes it and runs. If any of us had done all that SPUI did... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose until a suitable replacement is found. —freak(talk) 00:53, Nov. 12, 2006 (UTC)

Not an admin, but damn it would be disappointing to see SPUI go. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SchmuckyTheCat (talk • contribs) .

Oppose. SPUI, no doubt, deserves banning - but, since we don't do punitive, what he deserves is beside the point. I'm convinced that it is not in Misplaced Pages's interests to ban him, per this wisdom from an unlikely source.--Doc 01:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Flat out oppose per the reasoning of Bastique should have an RFC and I see no community concensus for banning and agree it is not in the communities interests to do so.--Dakota 06:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose as well. Per his userpage, "I used to edit a lot. Now I only edit when I see something that really needs to be fixed. Some say this makes me disruptive." He isn't that active anyways, so it's not really a problem. Khoikhoi 06:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons listed above. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support strongly. SPUI's behavior is not acceptable. As one opposing admin indicated, blocks/bans are not meant to be punitive, but preventive. SPUI's behavior disrupts Wikipeida; worse, he either doesn't realize it or doesn't care that it does, which means that we can expect periodic disruptions from him. --Nlu (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• And again, nothing happens. As I said a week ago, there are too many people willing to overlook too much. --Kbdank71 18:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

One CFD withdrawn needs closing, other CFDs apparent bad faith by User:Jc37

I would like help to sort out a problem which has arisen at CFD. (I am an admin myself, but cannot act as an admin in this instance, because I am actively involved).

My editing focuses on Members of Parliament in the United Kingdom, and on their constituencies. After some category restructuring (see Category talk:British MPs#Restructuring_again.2C_now_largely_done), I thought that some category renaming would be appropriate, and made a series of suggestions at Category talk:British MPs#Renaming_subcategories_after_restructuring. I made the suggestions there rather than launch straight into a CFD, because my experience of CFD is that it can easily become conflictual and unwieldy if the range of options for consideration has not been discussed beforehand. My aim was not to somehow stitch up the CFD, but rather to try to clarify the issues by considering them without a CFD deadline looming. (I have seen previous CFDs in this area closed with a referral back to category talk, so it seemed sensible to try that before CFD rather than after).

That proposal was made on 4 November 2006, and I drew its existence to the attention of some editors who I know to be active in the area. My intention was to let the discssion run for a week or two, to help maximise consusus, before proceeding to CFD. (At time of writing 4 replies, all supporting my proposals)

On November 5th, one of those categories was nominated for CFD (see Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 5#Category:Members_of_the_United_Kingdom_Parliament_from_English_constituencies) by User:Smerus, who was evidently unaware of the discussion at category talk. This CFD was brought to my attention on 6th November (see User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Jumping_the_gun), and it nominated only one of the categories, with a rename different to those discussed in category talk. (Smerus proposed renaming Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from English constituencies to Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament representing English constituencies; my proposal was a rename to Category:UK MPs for English constituencies).

At 10:04, I responded at the CFD by pointing out the earlier discusson, and asking the nominator to withdraw the proposal so that we coukd create a new CFD including both options. Smerus kindly agreed to this at 16:21 UTC, and I created the new CFD tonight (see WP:CFD#National sub-categories of Category:Members_of_the_United_Kingdom_Parliament). I would like to stress that I have no complaint at all against Smerus, who has been civil and helpful and sought to resolve problems to seek a consensus, and who actions all show good faith.

However, in the meantime, at 11:13, User:Jc37 nominated the remaining categories, but proposed only the format offered by . When I returned, I accepted Smerus's offer to withdraw, and created the new CFD at WP:CFD#National_sub-categories_of_Category:Members_of_the_United_Kingdom_Parliament.

However, user Jc37 objects to the withdrawal, and at 00:42, 7 November 2006 says he/she wants only Smerus's proposal to be considered; only if it fails, should the earlier proposal be considered. (see Smerus's CFD and my new CFD, 00:32, 7 November 2006).

This seems to be to be silly at best, and destuctive at worst: the nominator has agreed to a new CFD to consider both options. That CFD has been created. The best-considered discussion is surely likely to be reached when all relevant options are on the table, from the outset.

Requested action: please can an admin close Smerus's CFD, since the nomination has been withdrawn in favour of a later CFD.

However, it didn't end there :(

Having been notified of the earlier discussion at Category talk:British MPs, Jc37 then listed the three other categories for renaming, without listing the proposal originally discussed: see British female MPs, Current British MPs.

In subsequent comments at 00:46, 7 November 2006 and 00:42, 7 November 2006, Jc37 has refused requests to withdraw these nominations and called for another admin to be involved.

Jc37 has stated repeatedly that he/she opposes the use of abbreviations in the category names, and whatever its merits that is an entirely legitimate objection. However, the way in which these nominations have been made appears to have been designed to prevent or hinder consideration of all the options, and subsequent unwillingness to resove the situation reinforces that view.

I assumed good faith, but since Jc37 has insisted that it is preferable to run a CFD without including the earlier options, I can only conclude that the aim in the second batch of discussions was to bypass ongoing discussions about the names of these categories, by using the CFD process to trump attempts to explore the issue and seek consensus. JC37 refuses to continue discussion, and has suggested admin intervention (see comment at 00:42, 7 November 2006). I would have prefrred to continue discussion, but that has apparently been refused. In other circumstances I would Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes#Second_step:_Disengage_for_a_while, but since a CFD process is underway, disengagement is a poor option.

Requested action: please can an admin close the CFDs at British female MPs, Current British MPs as bad faith nominations, and ask all editors concerned to discuss the issues further at Category talk:British MPs and to return to CFD with a set of proposals which relects all the options for which there is support.

I feel strongly that it would set a very bad precedent for these nominations to continue: if CFD can be used used as a mechanism to disrupt and bypass consensus-seeking discussions, then there ill be a clear disincentive to discuss category changes before moving to CFD. That will only make for more confrontational CFDs, poorer decision-making, and a much harder job for the admins who monitor and close CFDs.

While I await admin response, I will go ahead and make counter-proposals to these CFDs. However, even after making the counter-proposals, I would still prefer the CFDs to be closed. Some participants have already made their recommendations without

Thanks! --BrownHairedGirl 12:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a totally unacceptable request and I suggest it is made in bad faith simply because BrownHairedGirl is worried that she will lose the debate on Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion. There has recently been strong interest in removing gender categories for politicians on Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion. BrownHairGirl seems to feel that when the proper forum for discussing categories (guess why it is called "categories for discussion"?) is not getting the results she wants the proper procedures should be voided in favour of a forum where she feels more confident of getting her way. I suggest that she should be reprimanded for making false allegations of bad faith. Piccadilly 01:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Piccadilly, that is utter nonsense, as would be abundantly clear to anyone who does some minimal reading. I have no objection to anyone nominating a category for deletion, and while I would query the usefulness of a CFD on the female MP categories when there was a previous unsuccesful proposal only three months ago. I have not objected in these CFDs to the nomination to delete the categories (I recommend against, but I have not objected to that aspect of the nomination).

BrownHairedGirl that is utter nonsense. You have objected to use use of cfd and are continuing to do so. Piccadilly 14:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If you had bothered to read my complaint above before launching into a personal atatck, or botgered to to read the discussion at Category talk:British MPs#Renaming_subcategories_after_restructuring, or to read my contributions to the CFDs, you will see that I am not calling for an abandonment of the CFD, simply for a CFD which does not try to exclude options on which a consensus had been developed at category talk.

Drawing attention to your bad faith actions and attempts to intimidate other users, which have since got worse with the deletion of my comments on cfd, is not a personal attack, it is a public duty. Piccadilly 14:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Piccadilly, your allegation was based on the assunption that I did not want a CD to trakr place. That is false, as you can see from reading the CFDs. Your new allegation of intimidation is thefefore just more nonsense. --BrownHairedGirl 15:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not try, and have not tried, to void one forum in favour of another: if you read what I wrote above, I said "My aim was not to somehow stitch up the CFD, but rather to try to clarify the issues by considering them without a CFD deadline looming. (I have seen previous CFDs in this area closed with a referral back to category talk, so it seemed sensible to try that before CFD rather than after)."

When you have tried to stitch up cfd, saying "My aim was not to somehow stitch up the CFD" does not make you innocent. Just the same as when one has robbed a bank saying, "My aim was not to rob the bank" does not make one innocent. Piccadilly 14:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

For goodness sake, I have not tried to stich it up! How on earth is a stitch up to ask that all options be presented from the outset, and that an editot should not attempt to bounce an existing discussion by taking part of it and rushing off with a different CFD which excludes the option to have achieved coinsensus so far? --BrownHairedGirl 15:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

All I want is a CFD with a set of proposals which relects all the options for which there is identifiable support, rather one lodged. Do you oppose that? A discussion at category talk cannot make a decision, and it cannot replace CFD. However, it can help to clarify the issues, and to allow users to define which options are useful to bring to CFD.

The proposals you present are too complex. If one wanted to be cynical one might suggest that you are trying to make things so hard to follow that few people will have the time to choose any option other than nodding them through or ignoring the discussion. Piccadilly 14:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

These categories are complex: there are a bundle of related categories involved. Why do you want editors to vite without being aware of all the issues? --BrownHairedGirl 15:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what your motive is, Piccadilly, but your comment here is is either gravely mistaken or thoroughly malicious. --BrownHairedGirl 02:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

You have been caught out misbehaving grievously. I came here solely to defend an innocent user with whom I have no connection who has been maligned by you. You need to read Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks and Misplaced Pages:Civility and stop acting like you own Misplaced Pages's coverage of British MPs. Piccadilly 14:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I have been following this discussion for some time and am AMAZED by the consistent patience, forbearance and industry of User:BrownHairedGirl. - Kittybrewster 17:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I am amazed at the unscrupulous methods she is prepared to use to impose her will. She has had the gall to delete my comments on cfd, which is about as clear-cut as bad faith can get. Piccadilly 14:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

What on earth is unscrupulous about asking for a CFD which includes from the outset all the options which editors want to discuss, in partiular those which had achieved support in a live discussion at category talk before th nomination was made? --BrownHairedGirl 15:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"All the options" is an interesting statement. It sounds like you feel that you won't be "heard". What was stopping you from joining in the CfD discussions, rather than rather petulently (I apologise, but I'm having a hard time seeing it any other way atm) disregarding the noms except to dismiss them as unwanted? The mere fact that after several hours "away from your computer", you still chose to not join in the discussion, and start your counter nomination (pointing out that the previous nom was on the 5th, my additional noms were on the 6th, and her counter noms was on the 7th). And I have to admit, I'm starting to find the continued use of "bad-faith nomination" a bit irksome, especially when I consider the circumstances of your attempt at a separate duplicate/subsequent/alternative nomination. Anyway, I'll continue my thoughts below. - jc37 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Can someone tell me what needs to be done in three sentences or less? --Kbdank71 20:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes!

• Requested action: please can an admin close Smerus's CFD, since the nomination has been withdrawn in favour of a later CFD.
• Requested action: please can an admin close the CFDs at British female MPs, Current British MPs as bad faith nominations, and ask all editors concerned to discuss the issues further at Category talk:British MPs and to return to CFD with a set of proposals which relects all the options for which there is support.

Hope this helps. --BrownHairedGirl 15:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

There's that "bad-faith nomination" comment again. I even split the nomination at the request of another user. I feel I've been amenable, helpful and communicative. So I feel such an attack is unwarranted. - jc37 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

General response

Well, wow. This is apparently what I get for being away from Misplaced Pages for a couple days?

I'm rather stunned at BrownHairedGirl's accusations, I suppose I shouldn't be, but I am nonetheless.

I think the easiest way to respond would be to show a "timeline", and go from there.

First, take a moment and read: User talk:BrownHairedGirl#CFD for MPs from English constituencies. (I'll be referring to it, but for space reasons, am deciding to not repaste it all here. If diffs are still requested, I suppose I can build a list.) I pasted her initial post from my talk page, and my response, to her talk page.

• Her post time: 10:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• My response: 10:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Her response: 10:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• My next response resulted in an edit conflict with Mai Oui!, whose response was at: 10:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC) ; while mine was at: 11:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• And then I responded to Mai Oui's comment at: 11:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Notice the immediacy of the discussion to that point. After that point, no responses whatsoever. I offered to list the rest of the nominations (since "someone else" had already listed a couple of categories that apparently she had made a plan for). I did so, and finished the nominations, though, as I mentioned, I didn't agree with the MP abbreviation, and noted the already existing nominations used "representing" rather than for or from, and so I nominated the rest based on the previsous nom's precedent.

(interjection) But you didn't menton that the discussion at catehory talk was entirely in suppot of the abbbgreviations, and you didn't mention the abbreviations as an option, and you didn't include a link to the discussions at category talk. Basically, you were pointed to an existing discussion n a naming structure, saw that there was agreement for a particular format, and instead of exploring whay that structure was preferred, decided that you liked a different one, so set out to bypass the existing discussin by making a CFD which excluded the opotion prefered by other editors. --BrownHairedGirl 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

(continued interjection) And you didn't mention that the discussion consisted of you and one or two other people. The concern by Mai Oui! was length of the name, and I never saw a support of MP as accurate. So I think a concern about Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (precision) is a valid concern. While Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (abbreviations) suggests that such abbreviations are fine in article text (though MP is not one of those listed), Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions#Prefer spelled-out phrases to acronyms says rather clearly that abbreviations should not be used in names. See also the even more specific Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (acronyms). In order to cite WP:IAR, one needs a reason, and name length is not a valid reason from what I have read. All that aside, What I also did was link to all relevant discussions in my nominations. There was full transparency to my actions. (Continuing on below.) - jc37 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

First: there were four contributors to that discussion, not "one or two".

OK, you had a concern about abbreviations. But did first you looked at the wrong guidelines: those guidelines are about naming articles, but what we are discussing here is categories. The relevant one guideline is Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (categories), which depreactes abbreviations, but also says "Avoid names that are too long or too short. Short, simple names are preferred for categories"

Did you raise that concern in the discussion? No. You ignored the discussion and the long history behind it which coukd have been shown if you had asked, and went straight to CFD.

And you didn't link o the discussion. You linked to the talk page, rather than to the discussion. (It's a long talk page, and readers are unlikely to raed through all of it to find he relevant bit) --BrownHairedGirl 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And now we begin with a question of what's "true" in accusatory statements. sigh.

Please take a moment and go look at the links. First, I did link to the discussion , not to your talk page. Second, when I did link to your talk page, I actually linked to exactly where the discussion was on your talk page (through the use of "#") See my comments atthis CfR. - jc37 03:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Jc37, please read the diff you posted. As you'll see from the cnxt above, I as referring to Category talk, not user talk. The link you posted in that diff is to Category talk:British MPs, rather than to the relevant discussion at Category talk:British MPs#Renaming_subcategories_after_restructuring. (The discussion on my talk page was short and procedural: the substantive discussion on the rationale for the new, shorter category names, was at Category talk:British MPs#Renaming_subcategories_after_restructuring). --BrownHairedGirl 02:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Not only didn't I receive a response about them, but I didn't receive a response at all, for quite some time.

(interjection) Indeed. Because I was not a my computer, as you see from my contribs log. --BrownHairedGirl 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

As I noted above, your first action, after 11+ hours of being away from your computer, rather than continue the discussion on your talk page, which above you've stated was where you feel that the current consensus was, instead was to immediately start a CfD draft in your sandbox , then to comment to others that you were drafting such a proposal, and then to propose it. If you were acting in such good faith, I would have presumed that you might have at least done as I did, and commented on your talk page about it. That you didn't, and that you rushed to pursue your counter nomination... Well, considering how loudly you've called my nominations "bad-faith noms", I wonder if actually your counter nomination was such a one. - jc37 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

JC37, the nominator of that CFD had already kindly agreed to withdraw in favour of a new joint nomination. The longer I let that new nomination, the more likely it was that more people would spend time to a CD that was going. That's why the new CFD hads to be the first step. --BrownHairedGirl 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The way that reads to me is that you felt that you had to rush your counter nomination because you felt that the people commenting at the existing CfDs needed the guidance of your new CfD? I would presume that's what comments in an existing CfD are for, which, again, you were welcome to do. FYI, as far as I can tell, you just stated that your nomination was a POV nomination. - jc37 03:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it was not until after BrownHairedGirl had nominated a separate set of nominations on the following day, and my subsequent responses to them, that she said anything at all.

(interjection) Jc37, that's a neatly incomplete summary, isn't it?

If you read the CFD, you'll see that

• The nomination was made by Smerus at 20:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
• At 10:04, 6 November 2006 , I posted to opoose the nomination and note an earlier discussion, and asked the nominator to withdraw
• At 10:20, 6 November 2006, I added a further comment, noting the need to include the other categs, and the support for a "shorter consistent naming structure" (the nomination would increase the length of already over-long category names).

I then posted a message to each of the contributors to the CFD, pointing out the existence of an ongoing discussion at category talk.

• Jc37 replied, noting that while the agreement at category talk was for shorter names, Jc37 disagreed. I replied, noting the need for consistency;
• Shortly afterwrds, I left my computer for the day (last contrib 11:01), and did not return until to wkipedia until late in the evening: see my contribs.

• I saw that there was more discussion on my talk, but finding nothing from Smerus, my first priority was to go to the CFD to see if Smerus had agreed to withdraw the CFD. He had, so I created the new CFD and thanked him. --BrownHairedGirl 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• So what you're saying is that you were uninterested in any other discussion except the hope that someone had withdrawn their nomination so that you could go forth with yours, and ignored entirely that not all nominations had been withdrawn? Wow. Also, AFAIK, once nominated, the nominator can attempt to withdraw the nomination, but the CfD remains open until an uninvolved admin decides that there is consensus to close. (For example, if the nominator had suggested rename, and the commentors all said delete, and the nominator attempts to withdraw the nom to avoid deletion, the closing admin has the discernment to note that, and choose to close or leave open based on that.) I don't believe that Smerus's nomination was clear-cut at that point, and so closing as a withdraw would seem to me to be pre-mature. (And an excuse to post the counter nomination.)- jc37 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No. I'm saying that it is in the right of a nominator to withdraw their nomination, and that had been done. Your addition of subsequent categories didn't alter that. -BrownHairedGirl 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You continue to try to cast a pe-existing proposal as a counter-nomination, and to steadfastly oppose any attempt to discuss it. Wjy this insistence on jumping in on a existing discission, rushing the ategories concerbed to CFD, and then ejecting efforts to having the original categories propsal discussed too?

I have not any point suggested that your noninatons should not be duscussed, simply that you should place them alongside the other options. --BrownHairedGirl 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The only one "rushing" was you. I actually was discussing with you and Mai Oui, and nominated the cats out of that discussion. I don't see that you did so as well. - jc37 03:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

How on earth was I rsuhing? You nominated Category:British female MPs, Category:Current British MPs etc, without posting anything to the discussion at category talk, ithout aiting to hear why the shorter anmes were favoured, and you even nominated one category for a new title which would clearly be factually wrong. :( --BrownHairedGirl 04:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

At that point, I started to try to discuss with her, but after seeing the situation, I decided that the best idea would be to suggest that a non-involved admin sort it all out.

Since then, I've not been on Misplaced Pages (for unrelated RL reasons). And apparently she's attempted to "clarify" / "modify" the previous nominations. I am still not certain why she has such a problem with allowing the nominations as listed, and suggesting her changes once they were finished, if she feels so stongly about it.

Anyway, At this point, I'm not going to presume what to think about this. What I'd like to see is the original nominations be "un-modified", and run their course, and the "duplicate" nomination re-listed once they are done. However, this is now a mess, since several people have already voted in the duplicate nomination, and with her "modifications", the existing noms would seem to be a mess now as well.

I wish whoever deals with this a lot of luck and discernment : ) - jc37 10:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: As far as I can tell, all the categories in question were tagged either by the original nomination, or by me. I don't believe that BrownHairedGirl updated any of the tags for her duplicate/subsequent nomination. - jc37 10:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the easiest thing to do would be close ALL of the nominations right now as duplicates of each other, and the two of you can get together and nominate them again, without any other nominations getting in the way and confusing me. Would either of you have a problem with that? --Kbdank71 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kbdank71, that's fine by me, as long as there is some discussion first to ensure that the nominations start off by all offering the various options for which there is obviously some support, and that they include the relevant sub-categories (I'm not sure that any of the existing nominations are complete). I suggest that rather than discuss it in user space, that the discussions should take place at Category talk:British MPs. I hope that's acceptable to everyone.

I should stress that I'm not suggesting any sort of stitch-up or attempt to exclude anything beforehand, just a bit of work to ensure that participants in a CFD are presented with some clear and concise options so that the CFD discussion is less likely to get confused by more options being added in after it has started. I know that folks are entitled to add options, but a bit of preparation should help to reduce the need for that. --BrownHairedGirl 17:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

oops! by "some discussion first" I meant discussions before renomination. --BrownHairedGirl 17:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering that's exactly what she wants, and has apparently striven for through her disruptive counter-nomination, I am sure you can imagine that I am hesitant to agree to that. I would not oppose the current noms all being re-listed adjacent (but not combined) with BHG's counter nomination (something that has been done previously with similar/related nominations), with BrownHairedGirl's unhelpful modifications of the previous noms removed as "confusing" (As Kbdank called them) except that her nominations, as duplicate, were not "complete", since they weren't tagged (simply because previous nominations were already underway). So I would think that her counter nomination should be removed, since it was not tagged. The thing is, nominations are "timed". And while this discussion continues, time is counting down. No matter what happens, I think it would be fair to list them for an additional day or two, due to BHG's intervention. I'd like to hear Kbdank's further opinion on all of this, and once the discussion is done, I have no problem deferring to his judgement. - jc37 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Jc37, you were pointed to existing discussion, saw the propsals being discussed there, and had some probems with them (as you are entitled tob do: that's why they were being duscussed!). Did you contribute or express your concerns? No, you went immediately to a nomination of something very different. It's a real pity that you didn't discuss your concerns before making a nomination, but since your proposals postdate theose at category talk, and since yours arose directly out of the category talk proposals, you can hardly call the earlier ones counter-proposals.

That's unfortunate, but to ask that the earlier proposals which you ignored should be removed is simply a stitch-up. If you ideas are good, why not let them be tested alongside those the earlier proposals which you decided not to discuss? --BrownHairedGirl 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

"Did you contribute or express your concerns? No, you went immediately to a nomination of something very different. " - That's an outright misrepresentation of the truth (I will refrain from calling it an outright lie, for civility reasons). As your talk page rather clearly shows. - jc37 03:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

jc37, if you extract part of a sentence and quote it out of context, it's easy to cast it as a a misrepresentation. You did indeed respond on my talk page. But what I refered to into the comment you selectively quoted from was that you did clearly read the discussion at category talk, but did not participate there, where you could have explained to other editors why you disagreed with them; nor did you wait for a response from me before making your nominations. You simply decided that you wanted a different proposal, and went ahead and nominated yours, and now you object to any other propoisal being on the table at the same time. --BrownHairedGirl 03:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Please do not take any action I am having massive problems with BrownHairedGirl's conduct on another discussion, where once again she is interfering with the normal course of discussion and making things incredibly complicated. I can see no justification to give her what she wants, and doing so will just encourage her to disrupt more discussions in the future. Nonomy 22:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • And I am having massive problems there too, Nomony. I have never before seen a noninator set to remove all the keep votes from a CFD by sploitting them off to another CFD. Nice try, though. --BrownHairedGirl 02:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• As I've noted, I'm becoming rather troubled by BrownHairedGirl's actions, which I feel have been rather disruptive in CfD in several places. But those aside, here's the simplest procedural point: Her nominations aren't tagged, and cannot be tagged, because there are existing nominations underway. If the tags of existing discussions were removed, I would presume that that would be even more of a disruption. So based on that, I suggest that the non-tagged nom be closed, or at the very least relisted once the others have completed, per existing CfD process. - jc37 03:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • That's all a red herring, because as you know, they can't be separately tagged. The available procedures in such cases are either to withdraw the nominations in favour of a new CFD which will need new tags (which you rejected), or to make a counter-proposal in an existing CFD, which I did (and which doesn't need new tags). It's one thing to try to pre-empt an existing discussion by pre-emptively launching an alternative CFD, but it's a bit rich to then try to block the original proposal from being considered as an alternative. Running two CFDs in parallel on the same issue is an obvious no-no: both could pass, in which case we'd have a conflict. Running them back-to-back makes litte sense either, because them we could have two renames in rapid succession. --BrownHairedGirl 03:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, people. I've closed every nomination regarding this that I could find. Please get together and figure out a way to renominate the categories that will cause the least amount of bickering. BTW, I didn't remove the tags from any category, so when you all decide to renominate them, you'll need to re-tag them so they point to the right CFD subpage. Any questions, let me know on my talk page. Thanks. --Kbdank71 12:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I am very well convinced that Kbdank71 read everything here, there, and everywhere, and I think at this point, what was wanted to be said, has been. So, I'll follow through and defer to his judgement : ) - jc37 12:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kbdank71, and sorry that you ended up having to sort out such a big mess. I think that there is at least agreement that some renaming is needed, and I hope that if Jc37 agrees to discuss options beforehand, that we can all arrive at a coherent set of proposals. --BrownHairedGirl 02:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

(edited above comment to insert missing word "least" in "there us at least"). --BrownHairedGirl 02:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

While I still have concerns about BHG's actions, and accusations (See also User talk:Kbdank71#CFD/ANI: you asked what needs to be done and User talk:BrownHairedGirl#More CFDs on MPs?), unless someone else wishes to continue this specific discussion, I think at this point, since Kbdank71 closed all the nominations that I was involved in (I was not involved in this disrupted CfD or the related WP:POINT action), someone is welcome to close this discussion. As a side note, I do hope that BHG takes the advice I offered on her talk page. - jc37 04:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I will reply on my talk page to the comments there, but I would particularly like to draw the attention of anyone who is still reading to something I find very depressing.

Jc37 replies above kbdank71 that "I'll follow through and defer to his judgement", his judgment having been (reasonably enough) to get together and figure out a way to renominate the categories. But elsewhere, Jc37 writes shortly afterwards that "what I'll do at this point is take my own advice ... I'll do a comprehensive nomination dealing with MP".

I do hope there will be a change of heart, or else we will be heading for a rerun of this tangle. What exactly is the problem with a discussion clear of CFD, among all intersted parties to try to clarify options? :( --BrownHairedGirl 04:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Cjwright79 (talk · contribs)

I am not sure if this is the right place to report this, but this user has been adding some rather questionable edits which seem in violation of WP:POINT, especially in light of his recent FAC and peer review. From his recent contribution history:

• - Redirected Point-of-view to Obvious
• - Redirected Apparently to Obvious (see the bottom of Misplaced Pages:Peer_review/Betrayal_at_Krondor)
• - Reliable Source (see User_talk:Scientizzle#What_is_wrong_with_saying_that_Rolling_Stone_is_full_of_-----.3F)

EDIT: Additional edits:

• - Created and redirected False virtue to Virtues of Ultima
• - Created and redirected Humilated to Humility
• - Edited Misplaced Pages:The Motivation of a Vandal to prove a point.
• - Another WP:POINT violation
• - Vandalized Science page
• - Created Homogay to redirect to homosexuality

Gzkn 03:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And this entire thread is questionable. And if you look at his talk page (and those of editors who have been calling him on his crap), he's said 'sorry, I understand better now and I won't do it again' about a dozen times in half as many days. Personally, I think he's a reincarnation of User:Courtney_Akins. But whoever he is, he's clearly a troll, taking the (long, slow) piss out of well-meaning editors. And what's with all his edits? He's edited his own talk page about 100 times in less than a week (half of which he was blocked for), and a couple of articles another 100 or so times. Anchoress 03:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, it's me. Do you have any questions? I've been autoblocked once now, and I'd prefer to avoid such a thing in the future. I may or may not be well meaning, I'm sure you'll be able to judge for yourselves. Chris 04:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure we will. Why did you create Cuntbucket exactly? I reverted some of your nonsense, and deleted that one, and when you e-mailed me yesterday asking to be unblocked I looked at your contribs and thought -- troll. Are you here to help us build an encyclopedia, or for some other reason? Antandrus (talk) 04:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it needs to be an either/or choice. That said, I am definitely in support of improving Misplaced Pages. However, sometimes one can only do that by challenging the existing Establishment. You may wish to read Misplaced Pages:The Motivation of a Vandal. Chris

You mean this bit? : "The motivation of a vandal ranges, but their purpose is the same; to get attention. " Regards, Ben Aveling 05:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm certainly getting it now. Chris

Chris had vandalized Misplaced Pages:The Motivation of a Vandal (see above list) in hopes of making a point. I have since reverted his vandalism. Gzkn 05:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And you're going to want to read WP:POINT REAL soon. --InShaneee 05:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems pretty pointless to me. Sorry. Chris 05:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyway -- I'm sensing a lot of hate here. I'm gonna go cool off outside. Cheers Chris

And, despite being extremely prolific over the past year, this editor was completely silent during the time Courtney was editing, and made few or no edits on the days that USC Cheerleader was editing. Anchoress 05:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This is him too 70.70.200.149 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). Shawcable, Surrey, BC, CA. Do we know where the Courtney troll was from? Note that there is some clear vandalism in this history (example )

And Chris, it's not hate your sensing, it's that trolling wastes our time, and yours. I can see from some of your edits that you are knowledgeable about a lot of things and are capable of being a good editor. Some of us aren't kids any more, and we'd much rather be writing articles than cleaning up after mischievous kids. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 05:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And, the IP edits started just hours after Courtney was blocked. Anchoress 05:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The user has already been blocked twice in the past week. Once by myself, another on his IP address (). The insults have been fun , and I put up an ANI thread five days ago , though it garnered only one reply. Considering the IP block, this is essentially his third chance in the last week and it looks like he's for some reason already burned it. I'd suggest a longer block. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 05:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I gave him a last warning on his talk page. Shortly afterwards, he made this edit. I request that he be blocked by an administrator. I'm getting tired of tracking down and reverting his edits. Gzkn 06:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I've given him an indefinite block. I'm tired of this nonsense. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that was definitely the right thing to do. --Masamage 07:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Good riddance. -- Scientizzle 07:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Not so fast, pardners. User:ChrisWright1979. Anchoress 17:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Block log. InShaneee nailed him, thankfully. I knew that wasn't that last we'd see of him, and wouldn't be surprised if he continues (though more subtly). -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 19:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, well he's got a lot of pit stops before he gets to subtle. ;-) Anchoress 19:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

According to User:ChrisWright1979, "this is the third new account I've created over the past week". Cjwright79 (talk · contribs) & ChrisWright1979 (talk · contribs)...What's the other one? -- Scientizzle 19:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Could just be the classic, "Release four pigs in the school and number them 1,2,3, and 5" prank. --InShaneee 19:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like ChrisWright79 (talk · contribs) & ChrisW (talk · contribs) are other socks of this user... -- Scientizzle 21:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this might be another one: Bradleybittinger (talk · contribs) (check out the vandalism then quick reversion, and also the weird note to UtherSRG). Anchoress 00:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Even if it isn't this same user, Bradleybittinger's edits have been all vandalism (may have been involved in the creation of Nelson Wu) and may warrant a block if the user (or his sock) continues... -- Scientizzle 01:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

As I dealt the block, anyone else want to deal with the unblock request? -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 21:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, has anyone gone through the contributions made under Cjwright79 (talk · contribs)? I tried going through some of them the other day, but I'm afraid I don't have the patience to sort through the few legitimate edits he made and the vandalism/trolling... Gzkn 00:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've gone through a bunch of them, but not all; like you I ran out of patience. I'll have another look. Antandrus (talk) 01:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Chris just emailed me and told me the names of (supposedly all) his accounts:

• cjwright79 cjwright79 (talk · contribs)
• ChrisWright79 ChrisWright79 (talk · contribs)
• ChrisWright1979 ChrisWright1979 (talk · contribs)
• Lordofring Lordofring (talk · contribs)
• MegaManEx MegaManEx (talk · contribs)

And he had some lovely things to say to me too. Oh boy! My first abusive email thru WP!! I'm so excited! Anchoress 01:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

He emailed me, too, very politely asking me to unblock him. He says that he wants to come back to Misplaced Pages and work for "consensus and sanity." I told him I'm not an admin, and that we get a lot of people who "reform" and then continue to wreak havoc. However, I also said that if he's really serious about becoming a positive influence, perhaps he should request arbitration and have some limits put on him. I think following those limits for a while would be excellent proof of good intentions, but I pointed out that I can't promise anything even if he does that. Extreme humility would be required, and a lot of you are so tired with dealing with this mess that it may not be a possibility. It's a thought, anyway. --Masamage 04:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin either, but I respectfully submit that he's a pathological liar and a chronic manipulative unrepentant incorrigible troll. This is what he sent to me (I know it's bad netiquette to post private email, but I didn't ask to be contacted privately, so I don't feel a need to keep it private):

Lawful Good? What a sham. It's also a shame that I have to live in the same country as you.

I suggest you remove your head from your ass and kindly resolve the matter of my being banned in a sensible and just manner. I see that virtually every administrator of Misplaced Pages is corrupt and intellectually lazy. You see the rules as being able to be molded into whatever you want them to be. Of course, this works perfectly. Except I'm sick of this bullshit.

Regardless, I have no interest in continuing this silly escapade.

The individual who said that I was taking the 'long, slow piss' out of everyone is quite right. I'm sending you fine folk this message: your sham reign is over. I will not go away. Your illegitimate and entirely evil ways will not be ignored. I haven't attempted to talk to Jimbo yet, but that's definitely becoming an option.

His MO is that he trolls and trolls until people get fed up, then he makes nice and sucks up and acts repentant until he gets unblocked. Then he starts trolling again. I'm not bugged by his communication, but I am absolutely convinced that this editor has no intention of reforming. He's just yanking our chains. Anchoress 04:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I got an email as well — apparently 70.70.200.149 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), which I put a 24-hour block on last week for trolling and vandalism, was him, and he's taken the opportunity to blame me on some of his other user pages. His email asking me to unblock him was polite, but had an air of insincerity about it (he said that based on my user page I appeared to be "a sane and godly fellow", an odd phrasing to say the least). I told him that I saw no reason to unblock him — his vandal/troll edits far outnumber any positive contributions to the encyclopedia. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've had five so far. The final one was the only rude one, the others were polite pleas for unblocking. Not falling for that again. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 04:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Boy did I waste my breath on his talk page trying to help him out. His next message he STILL wouldn't promise NEVER to troll again (which was my recommendation to him). Seems like he thinks he has some sort of right to troll. Anyone want to get in touch with his ISP about this? He needs to be sent a strong message that he's the one that's done the wrong thing, and if he's abusing admins here there's not much point unblocking him. If his ISP gets onto him he just might get the message. Curse of Fenric 05:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think that Shaw's Acceptable Use Policy covers internet trolling. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about the emails on top of the trolling. Falls under harassment doesn't it? Curse of Fenric 07:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I doubt contacting his ISP would help unless he sent a death threat through those e-mails. If he continues to abuse the "e-mail this user" option, is there a way to block him from using that feature? Gzkn 09:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Three abusive emails today, two with the subject heading "Fucker!". Lovely. One of them ended with the rather baffling sentiment, "Have fun in Penn. State, you penitent bitch." Unfortunately, vocabulary confusion isn't sufficient cause to complain to his ISP... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Weird. I got another one, but it still wasn't rude. All it did was thank me for being "sane" and inform me that, just for my info, the word 'vandal' might be considered highly racist to some people. :) --Masamage 18:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A suggestion to all who are getting these emails. If you haven't done so already, make them bounce if you can. You can program Outlook Express to bounce emails you don't want. I don't know about others. If you have access to your email like I have (a domain host including email servers) you can program them to bounce this sort of thing. If this user persists with different email addys, that's spamming and that CAN be reported to an ISP. Even if they are using providers like Hotmail for example. Curse of Fenric 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If you haven't responded to any, doing that provides him with your email address. Not an optimal solution in my opinion. Just set up filters to block the emails. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 09:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, my latest one has a general message: "Please relay to the group at the Incidents desk that I give up, and will simply wait this one out. If they want to keep me blocked me for a year, five years, ten years, fifty years; so be it. It's not the end of the world, and besides which, chances are good that I actually do need to suffer the consequences of my behaviour for a while." So, I guess that's that? --Masamage 00:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So is this discussion sufficient evidence that Mr. Wright has been banned rather than just blocked? I'd like to speedy delete his "contributions" of Category:Zones of EverQuest and constitutent articles but can't unless he's "banned". =) Powers 15:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And he's back, again

Vangran (talk · contribs). Claims to have reformed and etc. (as he did before) . Unfortunately, one of his first edits was this rather trollish remark . Anyone up for blocking, again? I think it might be worthwhile to do a checkuser IP check to see if it's remained static, and if so block it to prevent further socks for awhile. I'm wikibreaking for the rest of the day though, so if someone else can handle it, it would be appreciated. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 23:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favor of giving him this one solitary last chance. If he blows it, he's gone; otherwise, so much the better, right? And I don't think that edit you link is trollish, personally. He should of course be very cautious about engaging in debates with anybody, on the other hand. --Masamage 00:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It is trollish to edit someone else's talk contributions. IMO if he really did want to edit constructively he would do so without drawing attention to himself. I stand by what I said about him above, I think he's a pathological liar, a troll to the Nth degree, and I think he has a hardon for sucking people's time and goodwill. The problem with 'giving him another chance' is that he is an extremely prolific editor, making 100s of edits a day, and if we do give him a chance, someone is going to have to check them all to keep an eye on him. Are you volunteering? If so, then yeah, I'm all for giving him another chance. Anchoress 00:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

He said the he noticed strong Christian nihilism in the other user, so he would therefore be impossible to reason with. He then went on a bit about Wikipedians putting too much trust in Ivory Towers. How is that not trollish? This is much the same thing that he did with his last account. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 00:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe you're right.

Is there some kind of special limit we could put on him? I don't know how ArbCom works exactly, but it seems like part of what they do is suggest restrictions on problem editors to help them become more constructive. Would something like that work? --Masamage 00:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is a limit that can be placed on him. His accounts can be blocked. See, if he truly wants to edit Misplaced Pages constructively, he can create an account and keep his nose clean without being a schmuck or trumpeting his previous identities, and we would never know. The fact that he made dubious edits then contacted you to fess up tells me he's still just yanking our chains. Anchoress 00:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

My view is - he won't take no for an answer, and is trying to not so subtly evade the blocks he has already suffered. I personally take the view of "no more chances". If the block is infinite and he is banned for good, he can wait until doomsday - he won't get in on that account. It's a shame account names can't just be deleted. What Crustacean said about Christian whatever it was proves indeed that he can't be spoken to. I tried and look where it got me - he all but ignored my advice and assumed the right to troll. So I say, maximum action. Ban all his ID's permanently and note his IP, and any ID's that are from the same IP or at least the same ISP be labelled a potential sock puppet. Curse of Fenric 01:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The block evasion point is a good one. You've all been around here longer than I, so I can easily imagine that you've got a lot more experience with this sort of thing. I still instictively prefer to give one last chance, but I accept that this might just be naïveté on my part (and I haven't had to put up with the obscenity-filled emails some of you have received). I'll support whatever decision is made. --Masamage 02:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

He's had enough chances. If he's so good at block evasion, he can set up an account an not vandalise with it. Blocked. pschemp | talk 17:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

User:24.47.198.164

Has repeatedly removed non-harassing comments from their Talk page without discussion and without addressing the behavior in question, such as breaking infobox syntax over personal stylistic concerns, adding future information to articles before events have actually occurred, adding false information to articles, removing user comments from their talk, and adding information without proper citation. Since the anon refuses to leave warnings on his talk page unless threatened, other editors do not escalate their warnings as necessary. Was warned to stop the behavior or a report questioning the behavior would be filed--user promptly deleted it. Here are the most recent diffs:

Maybe I'm being harsh, but seems like a long pattern of uncivil behavior by the same user here to try to keep a "clean" image. - Debuskjt 14:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This user has now taken to deleting third level warnings from their user page: diff. I personally think it's gone far enough to no longer assume WP:GF. They are committing small acts of vandalism, and removing other editors comment off of User talk:24.47.198.164 to make it look like they are a benign editor. - Debuskjt 17:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Banned users asking trolling questions at ArbCom elections

See , where an IP - which freely admits to be a banned user - repeatedly asks a question that can be seen as trolling. Same user has targetted other noms too. IIRC, banned users are not allowed to edit at all. Why should we, if we do, make an exception now? – Chacor 15:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

For further info, see Avraham's candidacy. This IP is a troll from the war that broke out over circumcision. – Chacor 15:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The protection of the page after only two reverts was inappropiate, though. - 152.91.9.144

I saw more than two, there were some added earlier and reverted (around Nov 6 or Nov 7). User:Zscout370 23:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, it doesn't quite match the stated protection policy, does it? - 152.91.9.144

"Come see the violence inherent in the system! 'Elp, 'elp, I'm bein' oppressed!" - It's a Monty python quote. Search for the holy grail I think. ---J.S (t|c) 18:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As for the protection, I think this is fine, since it still allows most users to edit and there is no need for moving ArbCom candidate pages unless the ArbCom people think it should be somewhere else. User:Zscout370 18:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Nation Based Vandalism

Hi, user Tajik is systematically searching and changing Turkish related articles with wrong and unsourced informations. WikiArticles are not improving because of his/her wrongly editings. He/She is searching 'turk' or "turkic" words in an article and deleting or deforming sentence or changing with 'persian' word in a baseless way. And he generally makes this secretly. He/She is making these changes with 'minor edits'.
A check to the minor edit box signifies that only superficial differences exist between the current and previous version: typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes, rearranging of text without modifying content, et cetera. A minor edit is a version that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute. By contrast, a major edit is a version that should be reviewed to confirm that it is consensual to all concerned editors. Therefore, any change that affects the meaning of an article is not minor, even if the edit is a single word.
However, Tajik's systematically minor editings hardly affects of articles. And he/she always uses this illegal method. Please have a look at his/her contributions;<br|> http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ferdowsi&diff=78165928&oldid=78165559<br|> http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Category:Ghaznavid_Empire&action=history<br|> http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hephthalite&action=history (Almost all of the minor editings by Tajik)<br|>

Actually, these are the ones that i could see. Please look at Contr. ;http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Tajik<br|> Secondly, if he/she is frustrated in editing he/she is inviting to article other wikipedians. What can be the evidence for teamworking else. He/she is not seeing wikipedia as an culture and information organization. He always deforms sourced turkic related articles and infos. He/she could has problems with other nations and races but is here true platform to solve his/her nation-based problems? Please help to improve Misplaced Pages...--Karcha 10:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

While this does seem to be a legitimate problem, note that Karcha also copy/pasted this to the talk page of three admins, including myself. --InShaneee 17:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

inshanee, if you looked at my user page, you don't need to add this comment. I'm a new wikipedian and was unaware of AN/I that's why i posted this to three admins until one of these admin's suggestion.--Karcha 23:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Everyone is invited to take at the links you have posted - especially the article hephthalites, in which you have been depanted not only by me, but also by User:Sikandarji, an Oxoford academic and a specialist on Central Asian history.

I also suggest every neutral reader to take a look at the nationalistic nonsense you are trying to propagate in Misplaced Pages, especially your hillarious accusation against the Encyclopaedia Iranica and more than 500 world-renowned and well-respeced scholars:

YOU are the problem here ... not me, and not someone else. Tājik 22:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Tajik is completely out of control, posting personal attacks on my talk page, on the Herat page, about NisarKand, about everything, every where. When NisarKand acted like this, he was blocked by administrators, however no one has bothered to block Tajik's even worse behavior directed at everyone. Tajik clearly shows that he has no understanding of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution policies or Misplaced Pages NPA policies or WP edit war policies. For example, he is currently attacking me on my talk page for "vanishing when everything is out of control." This I am doing on purpose as it it good solid Misplaced Pages policy that Tajik should respect and try for himself instead of personally attacking everyone who tries to resolve a dispute in a advised manner.

WP dispute resolution, Second step: Disengage for a while.

His comments to me about following Misplaced Pages policy which he ignores? "With all due respect: I am really tired of your pointless efforts in messing up articles and then suddenly vanish when everything is out of control (see Afghanistan where you first supported all the nonsense of NisarKand, including his racist comments against Iranians, and then suddenly dissapeared when things got out of control until an admin protected the article!)." Tajik's comment on my talk page.

The article I messed up? Well, he didn't follow my edits quite, but his original complaint against me was that I left in a comment that said Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Herat, while Tajik swore they weren't because he had information stating that Tajiks were 85% and Pashtuns 10%. When I pointed out that there is an important reason, namely current human rights issues, for specifically leaving in the information about Pashtuns being the second largest ethnic population, he threw this statistic back at me, saying, again that it was wrong that the Pashtuns were the second largest population, as they were 10% next to the Tajiks being 85%. He has apparently learned something new today about the ethnic population of Herat, and has taken this as an invitation to personally attack me.

There are some Misplaced Pages policies that make great sense, one of them being to just back off for a while. Would some administrator please explain this policy to Tajik and get him to back off of attacking me for trying to implement Misplaced Pages dispute resolution policies? And get him to stop attacking me at all? This is one of the Misplaced Pages polices I don't agree much with: allow people to continue personally attacking others.

KP Botany 14:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Suicidal_tendancies (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

See . I have a problem with this username, I am wondering if it is at all founded. Yanksox 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm giving a username block. - crz crztalk 20:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

What? Why? It's the name of a band, among other things. I oppose this. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 20:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a misspelled name of a band actually. Note that name blocks can also be given for names that match those of a real-world organisation. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make him change it. I find it a little upsetting that you would have a problem with it. Pushing subjects like suicide under the carpet contribute to keeping it taboo, something that 'shouldn't be talked about'. It has been a previaling attitude of the past. I write as someone who works on the articles around this subject on WP. Anyway I think he has chosen it, however, as he likes the band of the same name. I think it would be unfair should he have to change it. Thanks --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Amists (talk • contribs)

I say keep it. Why censor a username that isn't an insult to anyone directly and is probably just referencing the band. --AW 21:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The user name is in violation of the user name policy. Exploding Boy 21:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's borderline WP:U violation, though I imagine this is a reference to the band and not any statement of intention. Personally I don't think it is that big of a deal. That said, the user has crossed the line on WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA and probably deserves a cooling off block.--Isotope23 21:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If it is in reference to the band, then it's a username block anyway... --Rory096 21:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This user's second edit was a request for user name change, so s/he obviously shared these concerns, at least at some point. Accurizer 21:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or is username blocking being applied in a non-uniform and inconsistent fashion?JoshuaZ 22:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, after a look at the guideline, I'd say it's a little broad and open to interpretation. Additionally, I agree that we should not block people for simply referring to certain things, such as violent or illegal activities. Would User:Rape_Counselor be blocked? --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 22:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If it's just a reference to a band, I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like the person is promoting suicide or anything like that. RobJ1981 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Would it maybe be a big deal to ask Crz to revert his hasty block then, at least for now? --Amists 22:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, this guy's name is not offensive. An offensive name is something that includes profanity or racism or things like that, just because a name has the word "suicide" doesn't mean it should be indef blocked! I say let him keep it! And revert that block! --StonedChipmunk 22:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If it's a reference to a band, it's disallowed as an infringement on their brand. Otherwise, it is completely inappropriate due to reference to suicide. Yes, Murderous Rage, Impulse to Rape, and Misogynistic Boor are all inappropriate for the same reason - they bring the project to disrepute. However, in the face of opposition, I will revert myself. - crz crztalk 00:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

For anyone keeping score, Sean Black blocked him for being a troll. Yanksox 01:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's probably for the best. In his defense, however, I feel I need to point out that it's not completely incorrect to call me an asshole. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 06:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Check the contribs, this user is not a troll. Thanks to the admins for providing an indefinite block and forcing out a diligent and useful member of wikipedia with a consistent history of enforcing the policies here and working against vandalism for one vio of NPA and possibly one borderline infringement of CIVIL. So wise, and so so just. --Amists 10:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like he's relocated to a new username; seems to be a good solution to the problem. Not that I'm an admin or anything, but I looked at his contribs, and he seems to be doing a decent job of RC patrol and other work; the flareup looks to have been generated by what might just be confusion over the username complaints. Hopefully this sorts the situation out. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Note to self: look deeper into contribs next time. stupid. Considering the below, yeah, he does seem to have confrontational issues sometimes. I don't think it's unredeemable, however, and with the move to a less concerning username (User:Ring modulator), hopefully he can moderate that aspect. Tony Fox (arf!) 19:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

For the record, there have been problems with this user. Some of his more troubling edits: personal commentary, trolling, incivility, user page vandalism, user talk vandalism, biting, trolling, not to mention my own personal encounter when I confronted him about placing inappropriate indefblock messages on talk pages; his unapologetic reply, and subsequent trolling on my talk page. The block was appropriate and it would be a good idea to keep an eye on his new account. Accurizer 19:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked him again for 48 hours for comments left on my talk page and others. This blantant incivility is ridiculous considering he knows better than this. Yanksox 15:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Promotion of Business

User:Mancation is using the definition of the word mancation to promote himself and his business.

User:Emir214

Not quite sure what to do with this user, apparently leaving wikipedia. Had his page deleted, he recreated it with this text:

This username is free.

You may contact me if you want it.

I'd suggest an indef-block of the account, we shouldn't let this happen. – Chacor 07:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Try emailing him about it first? --Masamage 07:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

User has now speedy-tagged his usertalk page with "I have archived my talk page. Please delete it. But do not delete my user page. I recreated it for someone who wants to use my username. - Emir214 07:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)" – Chacor 07:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd just leave it guys, can't image we'll be having a huge rush on Emir214 requests... have we even been through 1-213 yet? ;)  Glen  08:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Anyways, I don't know if I like this idea. Users are often judged based on their past contributions (giving leniency to users who have just recently become trolls, for example). Also, deleting the usertalk should be out of the question, as the links to the archives are the only access to them. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 08:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought there was a guideline someplace about not sharing your username or transfering it to anyone else, but I can't find it now. --Masamage 08:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since I don't want to face another problem here, please revert my user page to contain all my archives instead. - Emir214 09:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not an acceptable offer. Public accounts are prohibited on Misplaced Pages. Per WP:BLOCK ""Public" accounts, where the password is publicly available or shared with a large group" This isn't a large group but advertising that someone can usurp your account is not acceptable. We block accounts all the time when they are compormised. This account has been blocked and the offer removed. pschemp | talk 17:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Koavf (talk · contribs) blocked indefinitely

Koavf has managed to rack up eight distinct blocks for 3RR, and 2 more for other disruptive behavior(block log). Note also edits like this.. I just extended his latest 3RR block to idefinite, as I think the community's patience is likely exhausted by now. He has had many opportunities to mend his ways. Having recently returned from a week-long block, he started edit warring again almost immediately. His behavior is unmodified despite the volume of blocks he has received. Of course, I put this possibly-controversial action up for review. Dmcdevit·t 08:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no note on his User or User_talk page? - Francis Tyers · 19:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? He has lots of warnings on his Talk page. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about the lack of note on his talk page regarding his indefinite block. A note has subsequently been added. - Francis Tyers · 01:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much possibility of recovery here. While I'm sure he's a nice guy, I don't think he has the temperament for editing here. I'm going to endorse this action, though sadly. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hm, harsher than we usually are. But then perhaps we are usually too soft. Endorse with the proviso that we put a note on his talk page indicating that he will be considered for a 'last chance' if he indicates that he 'gets it' undertakes to behave.--Doc 01:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree that a long block of some sort is in order. Not sure if indefinite is needed, just yet (I'm not too familiar with the situation), but the long-term disruption and failure to learn from past transgressions is pretty worrisome. Luna Santin 01:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he deserves an indefinite block, but I think that some kind of length (maybe 3-6 month block) with the option of a "last chance" before indefinite would be appropriate. He has been a useful editor, and the disruption comes from edit warring rather than vandalism. - Francis Tyers · 01:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Justin is a nice user but w/ a temperament. It is this same temperament that leads him to edit warring non-stop. If you'd ask me i'd say i'd prefer a definite ban from editing Morocco/Western Sahara related articles where he got most of the blocks. -- Szvest 19:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Svest. - Francis Tyers · 22:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a very strict block. I have edited on the Western Sahara articles before and I think that Kovaf has been struggling with some users who only have the aim to put certain viewpoints on Misplaced Pages. I'm not convinced by his neutrality entirely either, but I think the articles could become very unbalanced and that we would lose a valued contributor if he were indefinately blocked.

A block of a much shorter duration should be enforced here - 1 month, 2 maximum. I definately don't think he should be blocked from editing Western Sahara/SADR aritcles (but might support a block from aritcles on Morocco). --Robdurbar 16:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don’t want to interfere in your discussion guys but Robdurbar’s remarks justifying Kovaf’s behavior as just a "a struggle with some users" oblige me to do so. I think this is simply unfair from an admin.
• There are reasons why Koavf has been blocked (no need to list them again) and this has nothing to do with any "other users". Trying to Justify his behaviour in this way is simply wrong.
• The unbalance of the topic is an other wrong argument. He had the chance to cooperate with all and he clearly did not. Now there is a real chance that the topics will be more balanced and the atmosphere among the editors more co-operative and peaceful. All he was doing is (mis-) using Misplaced Pages for a platform to fight for the independence of a disputed territory and discouraging others with his obsessive reverts.
• There are rules, and they apply for all, so remember which message you will give if you unblock this user; it's like telling everybody "ok, just continue with your edit-warring and reverts, you’ll always find a nice admin to defend and unblock you."

Kind regards - wikima 18:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User Koavf has been reverting and edit-warring on many articles, and especially on Western Sahara related. Normal when he declares in his user page "I try to particularly represent the interests of truth and the Sahrawis of Western Sahara (SADR).", and on Wikime that "I will do my darndest to free Western Sahara". His talk page and contributions show that he resorts to personal attacks, and has trouble issues with a large number of users on a wide range of articles. After coming form every block, he immediately started by reverting all the changes done in his absence, even the articles he was blocked for. Short period blocks seem to "only make him bitter" as he made it clear. Koavf has not shown any change after all the successive blocks. He misuses AWB for increasing edit counts at the price of creating confusion, although he was warned and blocked for it.

As to Robdurbar's comment, I think that Koavf has made the articles related to WS very unbalanced, and in his absence you are urged to watch if the "some users" commit the same mistakes as Koavf or are the articles becoming balanced by giving both views of the WS conflict.

An indefinite block, or at least (as Francis suggested) a 6-month block after which a "last chance" is given to him to show he changed, otherwise 3RR loses its purpose and becomes a short vacation from Misplaced Pages before one returns to resume reverting and edit-warring. --A Jalil 00:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to infer any bias from most users - including wikima - though I hope he would accept that he, like us all, has some sort of inherent bias. With there being so few contributors to Western Sahara pages, I don't think we can afford to lose Koavf. I appreciate this ban is over conduct, not content, but when banning we do need to consider what a user has contributed to Misplaced Pages. Equally, I agree, that koavd's contributions have been far from neutral but they have been in good faith. Can we agree to at least reduce this from an indefinate ban? --Robdurbar 09:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be a fairly even split so far between endorsing and not-endorsing, is 50% sufficient for an indef ban to be upheld? - Francis Tyers · 11:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've only had bad experiences with Koavf. When things haven't gone his way, he has tended to run off to an admin, which has backfired on him each time (example 1, example 2). Lifting the block would be a bad move, in my opinion, which I'm sure will be proven if it happens. Several of his past blocks were reduced in length, only for him to pick up where he left off, which shows he disregards other people's good faith towards him. - Dudesleeper 15:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a rather difficult question, as he's mostly editting in territory which is *very* prone to POV-pushing. I'm fairly certain he has done it on occasion, too, and he's certainly revert-warred, but an indefinite block seems a bit harsh... Apart from all this, someone neutral should take a good look at all the Western-Sahara-related articles, as almost all of them contain either a pro-independence or a pro-Morocco POV. —Nightstallion (?) 18:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Francis, many others and me have been doing just that. We had experienced a very lenghty and hot debate at Talk:Morocco recently and i am sorry to say that among around a dozen of participants, only Justin was the most tendious. The participants had reached a concensus but Justin kept arguing against that. This is what makes Justin's case a bit torn. On one side, we need to keep all the articles free of POV and on the other side, we need no tendious editing and edit warring.

However, as i am not for a permablock, i'd still suggest a ban from editing Morocco/WS related articles as his POV pushing has reached limits. Szvest 18:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As Fayssal said, I would also oppose a permanent block. Koavf is an obstinate user regarding matters relating to his personal views but he has shown willingness to follow dispute resolution procedures. I know this is not the point but Koavf truely believes he's doing the right thing most of the time. Regarding a topic ban or a revert parole, these matters would have to be decided by ArbCom. If anyone wants to take this to arbitration, I am more than happy to express my views on the issue. Personally, I feel a bit guilty as I was informally mediating on the WS/Morocco articles but eventually left these aside because time restrains. Koavf has been with us for long enough to deserve a proper arbitration process instead of a fast-track community ban. Regards, Asterion 18:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Well said Asterion. -- Szvest 18:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Those opposing a permanent block are doing it out of good faith and kindness rather than out of rational and reality. This is a very clear case of someone for whom 3RR means nothing, blocks mean nothing, and edit-warring is a style. He has proven it again and again and again. There is no hope at all that he will change. I am quite sure many users have been indef blocked for much less than Koavf's record, and if this case were to end in a no-indef ban, it will serve as an argument for warring-editors, and as a blatant failure to enforce Misplaced Pages's most basic rules.--A Jalil 21:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Necronudist

User:Necronudist has been acting rude and uncivil against several users lately, as well as not caring about other policies either, but as I have been involved in some of the discussions myself, I prefer to let another admin solve this. It has been going on for a pretty long time now, on and off. The first "conflict" I can remember can be found here (example edits ) and he has since continued to be rude against other users, or has shown a complete lack of understanding of policies and their function (for example ).

The conflict has then erupted during the last week. See this discussion where the user recommends another user to break WP:3RR because he thinks the policy, along with WP:NN and WP:NPOV, are "bad ideas", and the latest conflict in this discussion, specifically rudeness and lack of care for policies (example edits: ) I have warned him and told him to stop several times during the discussion ( ), but nothing changed, and thus I gave a final warning (), after which he answered with this, saying he would go away and he has also edited his userpage () to show that. But since he's had a statement on his userpage for long () that he was to quit editing Misplaced Pages on May 23 earlier this year, I don't really know how serious he is this time.

Actions? – Elisson • T • C • 15:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried, my friend, but I'm "too free" to be part of this moneypedia. However, you forgot to write that I've linked to wikitruth that is considered an high crime here in Jimbopedia. And, please note, I've never offended anyone, just spoken frankly. I didn't quit before because I wanted to keep up to date some pages I created or heavily edited, but this time I'll seriously quit, me and my future projects. Be sure. I'm not a drama queen like someone wrote. You are a good person Elisson, maybe one day you'll notice. --82.61.59.136 17:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC) (ex-Necronudist)

P.S.: Maybe you'd better say that I've also done something positive here, like reverting vandalism and creatin' unique and hard-working pages. You know, just to say who you are tryin' to ban.

Already implied in one of my warning edits linked to above (this one, to be specific: ). And making good contributions does still not allow anyone to be uncivil or break policies. I'd like to have you at the project considering your good sides, but seeing you fail—and judging by how you act, you do it on purpose—to adhere to the rules over and over again, I do not longer believe that the sum of your contributions add to the betterness of Misplaced Pages. – Elisson • T • C • 18:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand, there's no problem for me. You (wikipedians) have lost a football researcher (hobby) and an historian (studies & job) because of a pair of stupid rules. Sure I'm not the first, and not the last. Let's think about this. Misplaced Pages isn't God (is there a policy like this? :-), it fails sometimes, maybe you (wikipedians) should try to improve it. --82.61.59.136 18:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC) (ex-Necronudist)

Imagine a wikipedia without rules. It's a shame you've been banned, but it's for the protection of the community. Misplaced Pages functions as a society and an acceptance of the rules of the society are required. Without those rules (even stupid ones), whatever they may be, the society will collapse... and no one user is worth such a collapse.

I find your attitude here slightly insulting as well. Moneypedia? Wikimedia has refused buyout offers, runs no advertisements, and is one of the largest collections of free content on the planet.

If you don't accept the laws of the land, thats fine. But you can't blame us when you leave. ---J.S (t|c) 22:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not blaming anyone. And we all know who Jimbo was before this project: one of the thousands that tried to make money with porno. Fortunately he found the new religion: Misplaced Pages. And so t-shirts, high paid wikimania interventions... However, I see your point, I accept it, and I quit. Simple. I was here for the culture, to give my little contribution, but if the religion comes first, well, I leave your stupid dogmas to you. It's not right that a person can't revert a vandalism 'cause the vandal has vandalized the page more than three times. It's stupid. I must have the possibility to break the rule for a good reason, not to be scared 'cause I'm breaking a stupid rule. Just think about. --82.61.59.136 10:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC) (ex-Necronudist)

3RR doesn't apply to reverting obvious vandalism.--QuantumEngineer 23:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And now? :-) --82.54.80.135 14:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC) (ex-Necronudist)

Ethnic/Racial comments by User:Street Scholar

User:Street Scholar, as part of a verbal tirade against other users with whom he's involved in an arbcomm case, made a very objectionable racial/ethnic comment against the Bengali people in Talk:Martial Race. Misplaced Pages is not a place for hate speech, and such bigotry. I have requested the user to refrain from making such hateful comments, however, he subsequently has continued his verbal tirade against certain racial/ethnic groups.

Of any place, maintaining a healthy atmosphere at an encyclopedia is of supreme importance. I denounce the derogatory comments against Bengalis (or any other ethnic groups) made by User:Street Scholar, and request other administrators to take appropriate actions. Thank you. --Ragib 02:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This guy has been carrying on like this for months. His justification is that under "his culture" remarks that degrade women in sometimes particularly offensive manner are OK, and thus allowed on wikipedia because of it policy of respecting all beliefs. Unfortunately he doesn't understand (more like refuses to accept) that this is a two-way street and he himself does not show respect for other cultures. It is OK to have beliefs, they should be respected, but that doesn't give anyone the right to push them onto others particularly when they are offensive to otherss. Not just rude, but a hypocrtite. I suggest often he is just trying to get a reaction. This user has been discussed here before - i know this is about women, but it illustrates his double standards:

, , vandalism to express hate?: , charming: , , . --Merbabu 04:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

May I add that there seems to be a pattern to his racism. He has been adding a lot of pseudoscientific and unscholarly prattle into oages like Cheema Raja Sahasi II, upto and including links to hate sites containing bogus race theories such as http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/ Hkelkar 07:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that he's had enough chance to demonstrate his usefulness, or lack thereof, to the project? He has stated that he is firmly opposed to following the NPA policy regarding sexist comments on other editors even after being blocked for it. Whatever his reasons, he's behaviourally no different than a deliberate and admitted troll. — Saxifrage ✎ 07:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Bloced for another week. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He continues to make ethnic/racial attacks. This sort of insipid and disruptive trollery is very hard on all of us.I think some action is needed soon. This is his latest screed . Continues to spam hate sites.Hkelkar 12:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

that guy with a grudge against Chuq and Longhair

So far, all the IPs used by the Chuq/Longhair vandal (this guy) have been listed as open proxies at , so I\\\'ve been reblocking for 6 months. Thatcher131 02:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this one 59.167.61.184 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) looks legit. Maybe his home IP? Thatcher131 02:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Another grudge? Must be my lucky month. :) -- Longhair\\\\ 02:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

So sorry. Looks like this is the guy who has been adding unverified stuff to Internode Systems (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Simon Hackett (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). His home ISP appears to be Internode in Adeliade. Every non-internode IP he has used so far has turned up on at least one open proxy blacklist. I recommend blocking on sight any non-Aussie IP he uses for a minimum of a month. Thatcher131 02:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That\\\'s what you think. My valid contributions to Internode_Systems were just being deleted for lame reasons. My contributions were referenced. No discussion was entered into regarding changing or removing parts of my contribution. The entire contribution to the article was reverted and then the page was protected. By the way, unsecured wireless and default admin router passwords are great. Regards the Chuq/Longhair vandal 208.101.10.54 03:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There\\\'s discussion at User_talk:ScottDavis, Talk:Internode Systems and Talk:Simon Hackett but you\\\'ve chosen to ignore most of it. Besides, it\\\'s kind of difficult to let you know others are trying to discuss these edits with you if you choose to remain anonymous and make little use of talk pages. -- Longhair\\\\ 03:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that \\\"discussion\\\" as you call it is so biased against the contributions it can\\\'t be taken seriously. Clearly aggressive wording in my opinion which must be the Internode Fanboi coming out in you. Regards the Chuq/Longhair vandal 69.64.49.130 03:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I don\\\'t give one hoot about Internode. I care about reliable sources of information however... -- Longhair\\\\ 03:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure sure. Can you please explain to me then how the magazine article and the ISP\\\'s own DSLAM rollout page I referenced was unreliable? The managing director stated the goal was to complete 25% of the exchanges in the timeframe of 3-4 months that were released in the magazine article. It has now been 5 months and they have only completed 11%. It is fact. How is that unreliable????????????????? Chug/Longhair Vandal 66.79.168.59 03:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Once you call off your army of anonymous vandals and quit fiddling with the userpages of the editors involved in the debate, I may begin to take you a little more seriously. We don\\\'t cower to brute force insertion of your point of view here sorry. -- Longhair\\\\ 04:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What\\\'s this then? Are you going to answer the question about \\\"unreliable\\\" sources? Or are you just going to delete my responses as you have started to because you can\\\'t handle it? Chug/Longhair Vandal 67.159.5.85 05:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The APC article is fine as a reference, but it doesn\\\'t back up the point of view you\\\'re trying to insert. See Thatcher131\\\'s comments below. I dislike repeating solid information to those who refuse to read it. -- Longhair\\\\ 05:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Your edits are inappropriate because you intend them to personally attack Mr. Hackett for the way he runs his company and because the only source is some kind of blog or internet forum. Maybe if you had a newspaper article or something, and could write it in a neutral tone presenting just the facts, you might get a better reception. Thatcher131 03:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That\\\'s a load of crap. There were no personal attacks in my contributions. I did however change my contribution to a more accurate and referenced piece. For instance I added an article regarding the proposed rollout of services and expected timeframe. I then had a look at the ISP\\\'s rollout page and found that they hadn\\\'t even completed half of what they had aimed to do in the article. How is that a personal attack? It\\\'s factual information about the rollout being behind schedule. I think the deletions are a reflection of bias. Chug/Longhair vandal 72.36.195.155 03:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I\\\'ve never had a vandal named after me before. I\\\'m honoured. Longhair and Thatcher131 have pretty much said all that needs to be said here. To answer the vandal: The actual content isn\\\'t the big problem, although it was obviously biased, it isn\\\'t the reason for the blocks - it was the 3RR breakage and refusal to discuss changes on talk pages first. The evasion of blocks, the user page vandalism and Admin\\\'s noticeboard vandalism, the use of open proxies, and the admitted use of an open access point without the owners permission - isn\\\'t really helping your cause at all. -- Chuq 05:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That\\\'s laughable. The evasion of blocks, the user page vandalism and Admin\\\'s noticeboard vandalism, the use of open proxies and the open access point use is a direct result of overmoderation of Misplaced Pages. How about before deleting someones contribution and banning them, you consider the article that was submitted and suggest rewording or removal of parts of it, instead of flatly removing the entire thing and protecting the page so no one can change it. Love the Chuq/Longhair Vandal 193.196.41.38 05:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

When you choose to play outside the rules, protection is a means to stop your behaviour. Edit warring isn\\\'t within the rules here in case you hadn\\\'t realised, and ignoring discussion at talk pages doesn\\\'t rate that highly either. It took several days for protection to be enabled, far longer than anyone has to tolerate the nonsense that caused it. -- Longhair\\\\ 05:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok look here we go.......it\\\'s the Chuq/Longhair brigade again.....give me a break! The reason I was banned by 3RR was because you were removing the edits completely, no discussion except \\\"anti-vandalism\\\" rant. You failed to even acknowledge that the article contribution that was submitted was correct, it just didn\\\'t wash with your own personal preferences. Hence that\\\'s why I resubmitted. Chuq/Longhair Vandal 200.61.58.2 05:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No. The reason you were blocked under WP:3RR was because you edit warred, and failed to discuss the matter. -- Longhair\\\\ 05:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Right....at least I acknowledge that both sides have done wrong here. Both yourself and Chuq are still to pigheaded to acknowledge that. Love Mr CLV. 75.126.32.98 05:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Your edits were removed by at least three distinct editors, with explanations in the edit comments. This demonstrates the consensus that this content was not wanted in that form. There were also comments and explanations on User talk:59.167.63.34, User_talk:ScottDavis, Talk:Internode Systems and Talk:Simon Hackett. You did not respond to any of these requests to discuss, except to \\\'\\\'agree\\\'\\\' that ADSL2+ did not belong on Simon Hackett. It was clearly only a matter of time before you were blocked for 3RR (Chuq beat me to it by about 10 minutes I think). Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, not a discussion forum. --Scott Davis 05:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Once again the \\\"talk\\\" was more in line with \\\"you are just a complaining customer\\\". If I was a \\\"complaining customer\\\", why would I even bother? I\\\'d just switch ISP\\\'s. I like Internode I honestly do, however there rollout is not progressing as they hoped(possibly for reasons outside of their control). It is fact however, demonstrated by the magazine article and the Internode DSLAM rollout page. C.L.V. 66.79.168.59 06:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I was prepared to attempt to mediate a compromise, until you vandalised my user page, causing more work for other admins to clean up. Your efforts are reducing the effort of other users available to improve Misplaced Pages (including those articles). Thankyou to the people who helped clean up. --Scott Davis 10:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah Scott I\\\'m sure you wanted to \\\"mediate a compromise\\\".....pull the other one why don\\\'t you?....now you have something to blame for why you never were going to do anything. Mr CLV. 75.126.32.98 11:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This user is banned

It seems highly likely, in my opinion, that this user, currently editing anonymously, is the banned user Internodeuser (also known as Zordrac). He has all the same interests and grudges, and the same ISP and physical location. He is also currently banned until at least February 2007, so feel free to revert/block these socks on sight. --bainer (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I am Internodeuser (also known as Zordrac).....NOT!!!!! Try harder next time. :P I was given birth to by Chuq and Longhair with assistance from Scott Davis and Sarah Ewart. Yes there is plenty more to come(time permitting of course), there are still PLENTY of Mr CLV modifications that haven\'t been found yet either. :P Chuq/Longhair Vandal 85.214.49.219 01:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't think the two are related, not that it matters anyway. This vandal is far more childish than my old sparring partner Internodeuser ever was. -- Longhair\ 01:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was just chatting with FreplySpang about this. As I said to him, Internodeuser was never savvy enough to do something like open proxy vandalism, so you may well be right. In any event, it doesn't really matter. --bainer (talk) 02:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfocused (talk · contribs) - bad faith assumptions, possible WP:POINT

Last night, I closed three school AFDs as deletes. Since then, I have repeatedly been accused of "abuse of power" by Unfocused, and giving "opinionated" close statements instead of closing the debates based on straight votes (AFD is not a vote). Despite being instructed by another user (as well as myself) to go to deletion review, he/she has continued to insist that he/she is right to go through the dispute resolution process, as if this were a content or behavioral dispute, and he absolutely refuses to go to DRV. Even after I amended my statements to not appear opinionated (and they weren't in the first place), Unfocused accused me of trying to cover up my original statements - if I wanted to do that, I would have deleted the AFDs, and restored all edits except the one that contained my original statement. He/she has since reverted the edits twice. Something may need to be done, as this user has a history of assuming bad faith. --Coredesat 02:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

He seems to have reverted your post-closing changes to the AFD closing statement twice mistakenly thinking that you should't be allowed to clarify or ammend the closing statment, and then stopped that, and left two confrontational but not hostile comments on your talk page. Those are not great behavior, but he stopped soon enough that it doesn't seem really disruptive. Most of the flames for the last several hours seem to be limited to a nice toasty discussion on his talk page... which you and all the other editors can just walk away from. I think that someone has to really go out of their way to justify an abuse claim for disruption or the like for an ongoing discussion limited to their own talk page. I think he's wrong on whether it's ok for you to ammend the closing comment; if he keeps the ongoing argument on his talk page, is that causing you any problems? If it bothers you, walk away and ignore him... No need to keep arguing with him there and feeding the unhappyness flames. If he comes out and bothers you on your talk page or elsewhere a lot more, that's a different story. Georgewilliamherbert 03:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You realise that doing that will just attract claims of ignorance and covering up? – Chacor 03:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll go on and do just that (walk away). Thanks. --Coredesat 03:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Chacor, if he comes out swinging into other pages, particularly if he's argumentatively or uncivily crying coverup, then that's disruptive and abusive, and I don't think Core will have much problem getting an uninvolved admin to block briefly. If he goes to DRV civily that's per procedure. If he keeps fuming about it on his talk page, then it's unfortunate but self-contained, and there's no reason to push the issue there with him. Coredesat, hopefully you just disengaging works. Hopefully he calms down overnight and lets it drop or goes to DRV properly. I left him a note trying to get him to tone it down a bit. Georgewilliamherbert 03:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I did the DRV for him Let the whining start in the appropriate place. SchmuckyTheCat 04:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I never once requested that Coredesat treat AfD as a vote as he claims above, however, in his closing statements, he included that he deliberately ignored the opinions of several good faith editors and was "being bold" in closing these as delete. Quite frankly it seems to me like obvious administrative rights abuse and I had planned to start a discussion here myself, if the talk page discussion didn't work. But the first step of dispute resolution is always use of the talk pages. I find it quite puzzling that someone should scold me for using talk pages for their intended purpose!

Note well: the deletion of the articles hardly matters; the wiki has enough content to keep anyone busy. However, people who deliberately step beyond the bounds of "serving the community" with their administrator privileges should be brought to notice. I would be disappointed if Coredesat were punished for this, but I would be equally disappointed if he were not somehow reminded and encouraged to use his tools in service to the community rather than in service to his own desires. Unfocused 07:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Nintendude socks

Nintendude has been evading his indef block with a number of sockpuppets. Can someone take a look at this?--Isotope23 13:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Systematic Vandalism

Hi, i have a problem, Tajik is systematically removing or moving Turkic related articles.
He/she is so paranoid about pan-Turkic topics.
These are his/her systematically moved articles which i could realise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timurid_Empire&oldid=52064682 (Nothing was discussed, but moved secretly with irani teamworking)
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rulers_of_Aq_Qoyunlu&diff=prev&oldid=55412192 (Tajik has moved whole article secretly with minor editing. Is this Minor editing? Nothing is discussed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ak_Koyunlu&diff=86761323&oldid=86761093 (Moved secretly by tajik. Nothing was discussed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Qara_Qoyunlu&diff=prev&oldid=86761672 (Moved secretly by tajik. Nothing was discussed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Seljuq_dynasty&diff=prev&oldid=67227611 (Moved without enough discussing)

When a source do not defend iranic theories, even this can be a worldwide recognized source Britannica, Tajik rejects these sources. Please have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Hephthalite. (The article of the Britannica is old, not really good, and in many parts not enough). However, if these sources present iranic theories, this time Tajik finds reliable these sources and gives referances from these like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timur&diff=prev&oldid=79934901 and this, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timur&diff=prev&oldid=79939260

Please stop this systematic vandalism and revert articles...
Note: I have written "Nation-based Vandalism" here, however nothing was done about this complaint, i'm questioning why? Isn't here Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents? Karcha 14:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This isn't necessarily vandalism. Try dispute resolution. --InShaneee 17:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Say what is needed? I think you aren't a neutral admin. I think we have to put neutrality check to your adminship.--Karcha 19:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Please try dispute resolution. Naconkantari 20:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. This is your second tirade against the same user on this noticeboard in the last two days, both with almost identical complaints. In fact, the complaint still is listed on the page (see 40 topics up, under "Nation-based vandalism"). Take Naconkantari's suggestion. Daniel.Bryant 02:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

From puerile to vicious in a week

Those are the edits of 24.151.77.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I could not tell if he's already blocked or not (there was a Bot update), but he should be. Thx. Thomasmeeks 15:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No, he is not blocked. His edits may vary because this IP address is shared by many people. If he stopped after a warning (which he was warned on his talk page) he doesn't need a block. semper fi — Moe 16:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It might be best to delete this account's last edit from the article history, however. Newyorkbrad 16:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

He has been reverted for his string of vandalisms in the past week. Am I expected to block or can I request and Admin. block? (My preference would be for the latter.) My reading is that he meets requirements for blocking. He is certainly heedless of warnings. Thomasmeeks 18:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Thomasmeeks, someone stated above that this is an IP address that might be usable by many different people. If that is true, it can't readily be blocked because of vandalism that occurred hours ago, as the block would be more likely to inconvenience innocent people than stop the vandal(s). However, as indicated, I suggest deleting his last edit from the history of that article. Newyorkbrad 21:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. But I don't know if the edit needs deleting. Vandalism like that is fairly common (ie. no personal information was released in the edit). We shouldn't delete anything that doesn't need deleting. semper fi — Moe 22:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say it is a shared IP? I don't get that from the whois or RDNS. (Educate me) Thatcher131 03:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Good question - my tech knowledge is minimal, so I relied on Moe, but the WHOIS lookup does say "Comment: Addresses within this block are non-portable." So I'll join in the request for education. And I'll add that if this is a static IP it should probably be blocked for a good long time. Newyorkbrad 03:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologizes. It does appear that is a static IP. I must have done something wrong when looking up the IP address earlier. It does appear static according to a WhoIs lookup. semper fi — Moe 06:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking through my Internet browsers history, I typed in the wrong IP address adding an extra 2 at the beginning of this IP address pulling up very different results. Apologies again. semper fi — Moe 06:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

Apocolocynthosis is adding unsourced, unverifed claims to the article Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. He claims he has a source but he doesn't cite it. He persisits despite multiple warnings Armanalp 17:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

A new user who's

only edits are to create an AFD and makes edits like this and this (check out his last comment there, I'm afraid, I cannot AGF and would suspect it's a bit of a troll. --Charlesknight 18:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

User just looks like a troll from my POV. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 18:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I have unblocked Friday's 24 hour block and have indef. blocked due to an inappropriate User name. User:Zoe|(talk) 05:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is it an inappropriate username? Anchoress 05:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's "Bill Clinton" in broken Italian. User:Zoe|(talk) 06:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I know, but it seems like a stretch. Anchoress 06:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We can't have a User:Bill Clinton, why should somebody be able to get away with putting into half-*ssed translations? User:Zoe|(talk) 06:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm sure you know the rule better than I do. I'm not gonna try to argue with you about it. :-) Anchoress 06:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Messenger2010

I'm posting to get opinions on this case. This user has certainly exhausted my patience and many other admins have had to deal with him too. I would like to know what others think.

The problem started with a simple edit war in which one party began to use sockpuppets very destructively. The puppeteer doesn't seem to have an "original" account (he started as an anon IP editor), but two "main" accounts have been identified - User:Messenger2010 and User:AndyCanada. Currently all known accounts are indef blocked except Messenger2010. I wanted other opinions before indef blocking this final account.

Evidence

• Sockpuppetry: See the category of suspected socks. Checkuser has shown certain puppets and IPs to belong to this user, but most puppets have made their identity obvious by their comments and edits. See, for example, this set of edit summaries: , and this set of diffs: (which constitute a 3RR violation to boot). Some socks are spoofs of other users; for example, User:Yankaas76 (spoofing User:Yankees76), User:Hello G. and Y. (referring to myself and Yankees76), and User:Messdock10 (spoofing User:Messedrocker). Some puppets have flippant, tauting names, such as User:WheeeeeePuppets, User:This is fun to be number, and User:I Plead Gulity As Charged.
• Inflammatory edit summaries: Example diffs
• 3RR violations: I reported this one, wanting another admin to make the blocking decision since I had also edited the article in question:
• Inflammatory comments: See, for example, this thread on my talk and in particular this comment. Also, from early in the case, this comment.

Ginkgo100 20:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Robert plowman

Attack page qualifies as CSD A6; should be deleted immediately to remove telephone number from history. --Kinu /_c 21:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. FYI, CSD A6 has been replaced by CSD G10. --physicq (c) 21:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

User Hydroflexology

User:Hydroflexology appears to be on an unstoppable missing to add a redlink to hydroflexology on lots and lots of health related pages (Special:Contributions/Hydroflexology). spam3 warning issued. The article linked to was deleted as blatent spam . Not sure it there is a spam noticeboard, or if this is considered vandalism: anyway, here it is. Notinasnaid 22:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I see he's been blocked now. Notinasnaid 22:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Cool cat/archive/2005/search/

Same spam nonsense. Please blacklist the linked sites and delete the page after or else the bot will simply repost from a different IP. --Cat out 22:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Just wondering: why do these pages keep appearing in your user area? Extraordinary Machine 22:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No real idea... Could be one of the infamous vandals... Or it could be one of my stalkers... Or it could be a completely unrelated bot attack. Your guess is as good as mine... --Cat out 22:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

These pages appear in a lot of places. For example, search for "index.php" on User:DumbBOT/TimeSortedPD. —Centrx→talk • 23:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I am still disappointed that the spammer failed to properly type my username. --Cat out 23:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's just your username. Other spammy keywords include "articles for deletion", "miscellany for deletion", "forum", "bbs" and "phpbb". I've listed it on my spam page. MER-C 02:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Sixty Six

Seems to be a single purpose account to troll MatthewFenton on Jericho articles. , , and his contributions as an IP address. Will 23:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect assumption. If one looks through Matthew's own talk page and its archives, you can see clearly the sheer number of complaints about his wanton edits. My contributions - especially the ones he's deliberatly expurgated - should be proof that I'm anything *but* a troll. Please try to research before you make the accusations, eh? Sixty Six 09:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Godwin's Law. Will 11:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously though, you're treading very close to WP:NPA. Will 10:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Stargate "vandalism"?

The word f*ck is randomly scattered throughout the Stargate page, (except with full-out spelling). The placings are haphazard and often cut sentences in half (ex: "...cover stones of an ancient ring-shaped f*ck artifact..." HOWEVER, the offensive words don't appear on the edit page and therefore can't be normally removed. If there is anything that can be done, please do it.

Removed, though they were in the edit page. -- Steel 01:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User insists on posting OR

212.72.149.54 (talk · contribs) has been contributing material that is manifestly OR to several articles, including Phaistos Disc--it includes a byline and email address, and reads in part "My Results of Deciphering the Phaistos Disc". User has been advised on their user talk, but appears not to be paying attention, even after multiple reverts. Admin attention would be appreciated. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

An admin has reverted the edits and posted a note on his talkpage. So far, he has yet to repeat these problems. ~Kylu (u|t) 03:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

They have repeated it a bunch more times, from both that IP address and once now from 212.72.142.221 (talk · contribs). This is now a 4RR situation on their part and I'm reporting it appropriately... 12:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this article eligible for speedy

This started as an AfD with minimal input and has gotten messy. I nominated In My Heart on AfD and it was deleted after two editors supported deletion. The article was re-created several times and I tagged each re-creation for speedy deletion. That title is now protected. Now, Lilb1293 (talk · contribs) has moved another article to In My Heart (album) with essentially the same content as the deleted article. As this article has a history going back several months, I hesitate to list it for speedy, but it now is a re-creation of the deleted article. -- Donald Albury 04:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The AFD had its course. If its deletion is further contested instruct the users to take it to WP:DRV. Looks fine to delete it per the AFD. Cowman109 04:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the responsible user has yet to respond to any of the 29 messages posted to his/her talk page. -- Donald Albury 11:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted. It's the same "article", it just happens to have a different db id... (That this version originally had a different title entirely demonstrates the wisdom of not keeping this sort of thing.) Alai 04:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for taking care of it. I felt I needed someone else to look at it. -- Donald Albury 11:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Cedarhurst, New York

There is serious edit war at Cedarhurst, New York where a veteran user alansohn (talk · contribs) is trying to intimidate a new user Helical Rift (talk · contribs). For example Alansohn is calling this editors changes vandalism which is result in a block. Both users have been uncivil, but perhaps the new user doesn't know about WP:CIVIL as the veteran user has raised the temperature of the argument. Alansohn has a history of referring to other editors as vandals and throwing around name calling see: Talk:B. H. Carroll Theological Institute.

An admin. needs to step in the middle of this violation of WP:BITE. Arbusto 08:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• This seems to already be resolved, other than Arbusto/oo's efforts to interfere with the resolution. User:Helical Rift had removed Category:Orthodox Jewish communities from the article Cedarhurst, New York, based on his interpretation of the category implying that the location was 100% Orthodox. After clarifying the scope of the category based on the examples of the communities already listed therein, Helical Rift was given several examples of communities with both Irish and Orthodox communities that are labeled as Irish, despite being under 100% (or 50% for that matter). Helical Rift then modified the description of the category to require a majority population. After several attempts at deleting and restoring the category, Helical Rift was told that the article has an explicit source for Cedarhurst being an Orthodox community. Helical Rift, then proceeded to remove all references to Cedarhurst's Orthodox community from several locations within the article, and then claimed that "article does not mention orthodox jewish communities..." in the edit summary. Helical Rift was warned that such removal was vandalism, removed it again and was warned a second time. After re-offering a suggestion that we label Cedarhurst as both Orthodox AND Italian, we were able to agree that this soultion would address our mutual concerns. Arbusto seems to have created this ANI in violation of WP:POINT. This issue seems to have been resolved with the user in question, but Arbusto/oo seems to have inserted himself into this issue, goading User:Helical Rift into further action after the situation seems to have been successfully addressed, even after Helical Rift pleaded to end this argument. Arbusto/oo has persisted in misinterpreting an explicit source that specifies Cedarhurst as an Orthodox community, deciding that the source is not valid because it does not state the exact words that Cedarhurst is an Orthodox Jewish community, a nonsensical standard that is not applied anywhere else in Misplaced Pages. This issue should be closed immediately, assuming that Arbusto/oo has no further need to interfere with the subject. Alansohn 08:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I just saw this as I posted the new incident below. I had already seen the altercation between them and warned them both about 3RR. They both deserve to be temporarily blocked for edit warring / 3RR and at least one should be cautioned for bad language. I have also nominated the category in dispute for deletion. --ArmadilloFromHell 08:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to say that yes, the issue has been resolved but Arbusto did not "goad" me. I had strong feelings on the matter and discussed it with Alansohn. To me, the matter is closed and I apologize for my bad language. Alansohn was also changing the Cedarhurst page as well every time that I did so we are both at fault. This is an incident that will not be repeated Helical Rift 09:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The Cedarhurst, New York issue seems to have been addressed with User:Helical Rift. All that stands open now is Arbusto/oo's efforts to stir up a false claim that the article does not meet the category's standards, after all, based on his blatant misinterpretation of an article that explicitly provides the needed source. Arbusto/oo's bad faith in this issue can best be seen at User talk:Arbustoo#Alansohn. Alansohn 09:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Bad faith this new user was being bullied by YOU and contacted me on my talk see below. Arbusto 21:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said, this issue is closed. Alansohn is not helping the issue now by incriminating Arbustoo. Both of those editors have a past history that they need to resolve on their own. The issue at hand is between me and Alansohn. The matter has been dropped and again, I apologize for the absurdness of this. Helical Rift 09:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The category is dispute was put up for deletion where Alansohn has continued his games. You more striking is his violation of WP:POINT. Arbusto 21:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Silentbob4477

User:Silentbob4477 has once again given himself Barnstars. (Revision as of 2006-11-11T13:16:15) one he give himself, and the other is a copy paste with another signature. The is the second time he has done this. He also has a past history of contributing to the Percy "Nobby" Norton/hoax issue Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Percy Nobby Norton - which he perpetuates on his user page. He did not sign his post there - but it says

This article was deleted and recreated on Nov 2 with the intention of providing a completely factual account of Norton's life. I am asking Starblind to give me 1 hour of my life back after he so blatantly deleted this article. STARBLIND YOU ARE AN ELITIST AUTOCRAT WHO TAKES PLEASURE FROM CRUSHING THE DREAMS OF THE WORKING CLASS WHO WILL ONE DAY RISE UP AGAINST YOU. YOU AUTHORITARIAN PIG-DOG. You have yet failed to provide a decent response explaining why this article was deleted again. I assure you, I will recreate this article under differnet names every week for the next year on every different IP adress I have access to. There is no limit to how much I will write and I warn you, a LOT of spare time has come across me and I will find it enjoyable to torment you motherfuckers.

Do we really ne4ed this? --ArmadilloFromHell 08:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking at that AFD, it would also appear that there is a lot of, either, sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry going on also - with significant numbers of new editors only having posted to that AFD.-Localzuk 14:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that also, if I knew how and had the time, I guess I could request a trace, it almost certainly would show something. --ArmadilloFromHell 18:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Meh. I considered deleting the hoax from his User page, but I guess it does no harm. Forging other people's sigs isn't appropriate, though. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't care about barnstars, but I don't like his using wikipedia as a free web host for perpetuating the hoax. I've removed it from the user page on those grounds. Friday (talk) 20:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I took a tour through is contribs, and I see no redeeming qualities in this user. Apart from the edits to that deleted article, about 90% of his edits are to his userpage, and a good portion of the remainder is worthless. We keep him around why? --Golbez 10:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He has had a short term block for vandalism, but it should be permanent, as far as sockpuppets, note Enknowed and these two related histories and --ArmadilloFromHell 15:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• I filed a RFCU for Silentbob4477 and Enknowed. Hopefully, that'll show what's what. -Hit bull, win steak 15:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I blocked him earlier today for his vandalism to User:Ryulong (he marked it for speedy deletion as nonsense -- at the very best a strong WP:POINT violatoin). I support a community ban here -- anyone else? Mangojuice 16:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've tried hard to assume good faith with this user, even when he cloned my user page, complete with barnstars and the admin template. But looking at the trouble he's caused versus the actual contributions he's made (nil as far as I can see), I've got to agree now with Mangojuice. --Guinnog 16:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned public domain

Whilst looking through CAT:CSD I noticed a number of images tagged by the same person as {{db-author}}. This seemed a bit odd as some of them were quite old and the original update seemed quite clear where the images were to be used. The CSD for db-author includes the wording "added by its author and was mistakenly created", the age and previous usage tends to suggest that these fail that criteria. I was going to ask the author about these, but notice on his talk that as they were Orphaned public domain "these orphaned images may be subject to deletion as orphans. You may wish to add them to an article, or if they are no longer needed, they can be tagged for deletion by you as...". No mention of moving to commons. I'm not that familiar with all we do with images, but should we be asking people to delete perfectly good free images just because they aren't currently used? If so should {{db-author}} be being used in this way or do we need to (a) go through a full discussion (b) provide a different CSD to cover this? --pgk 08:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

How about for images such as Image:Battery.png, we make a new page/category/IFD section for people to list orphaned free-licensed images? They can be checked whether they are suitable for moving to Commons. However, I am afraid that manual assessment of each one will be needed to weed out the improperly-licensed ones. I dislike the idea of slapping {{db}} tags on these images as good ones can be reused. Kavadi carrier 09:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America

Would someone mind protecting this page? I was about to revert to the NPOV version once more, but figure its become an open edit war, and protection would be a better option even if its “the wrong version”. Thanks, Brimba 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You need to go to Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection for requests for protection. However, I have already made a request for you. Keep it in for for the future. - Zero1328 _Talk? 12:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Move

There was a survey to move the United States article, which was closed as a clear "oppose". Since, was made, then the talk page was moved. Can an admin revert this, and block the user? Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 09:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, Luna was on the prowl, and has done it for me. Daniel.Bryant 09:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Konstable / AlternativeAccountK

I blocked AlternativeAccountK (talk · contribs) this morning because it was by their own admission an account used to get round a ban. I did not know, or care, what the original account was.

It turns out that AlternativeAccountK was a sock of Konstable (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) who has now abused their admin bit to unblock AlternativeAccountK and continue to use that account:

"oh lookie, I just got blocked again, heh, lucky I couldnt be bothered filing to get my sysop removed"

Suggestions on way forward please.

Thanks/wangi 09:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Konstable wasn't banned. He has left the project for an indeterminate amount of time.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, misuse of admin powers. I'd call for an emergency desysop. – Chacor 10:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Is any of this at all necessary when he's just popping back in to keep me in check and he was unfairly blocked each time?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a clear misuse of admin powers, and he clearly knew what he was doing. Admins have been desysopped for such before, and this shouldn't be an exception. – Chacor 10:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Either somebody has left the project or not, if they have not and are just "popping by" to keep you "in check" then they can do so with their original account. Such use of sock is at the best confusing and counter-productive - i'm not going to trawl through contribs to see if it was actually used to work around a bin, but that's certainly the implication made by the user themselves. Ta/wangi 10:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Wangi should read policy before blockging an admin, see WP:SOCK - clearly allows legitimate socks. I have no futher intention to participate in this thread, as I have left this nonsensopedia already and that account was created as a legitimate sock to close off some business I had here without making edits from my main account. I will decide what most "productive" way for me to leave Misplaced Pages already, thank you.--Konst.able 10:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

In which case you should voluntarily relinquish your admin powers, please. This was hardly productive, and was pretty disruptive, wheel-warring as well. – Chacor 10:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sysops are not supposed to unblock them selves .. even if its just a sock in essence you unblocked your self..? Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 10:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh yet another counter-productive disruptive thread to make a big thing out of nothing and throw technicalities of policies around in the air. Lets make the thread as big as possible so we can keep our mind off this and this and oh oh oh! what is it called again? Building an Encyclopaedia? I was talking to someone, I was blocked by mistake by someone who thought I was a "banned user" (as he said in his edit summary). I am not a banned user, hence to finish talking I unblocked myself. Easy, end of matter. Now I'm gone, go ahead and re-block if that makes you feel better, I won't be editing anyway, I no longer have interest in Misplaced Pages's bureaucratic nonsense. If I want to talk to someone I'll use email.--Konst.able 10:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is quite confusing. The AlternativeAccountK account's first edit is about a prior edit by...? El_C 10:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:AltUser by the looks. The user and talk pages have been deleted. This was the user closing AFDs as deletes, though they weren't an admin, though now it turns out they were... My head hurts. --pgk 11:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it him? Why would he do that? This is not getting less complixcated... El_C 12:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is the previous account that AltK was referring to. -Patstuart 18:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is very sad. I don't know what this is all about, and I suppose it's not particularly my or anyone else in particular's business to know, but two months ago User:Konstable was an enthusiastic editor whose RfA had just passed 47/0/0, and now he wants nothing more to do with the place, and a number of others seem to be quite cross with him in return. I know that in any online environment people come and people go and one isn't supposed to get too worked up about it, but it's always a shame when things go this wrong this quickly, and I often find myself post-morteming these situations and wondering if a happier outcome could have been available if people had sought one. Would it be appropriate for anyone to shed any light on what the heck is going on here? Newyorkbrad 19:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

See the history of his talk page, before he removed criticism (as an anon, with edit comment "(sorry, but I don't want any more discussion. (I am Konstable, don't revert))". It looks to me like he decided to leave, and then created an alternative account, clearly labelled it as a sockpuppet account but not for which account, and proceeded to close delete AFD's in order to provoke a reaction (WP:POINT). When he got such a reaction, he responded abusively, and was blocked. He's now claiming that this is an example of WP:BITE even though, because the account was a self-labelled sock, that doesn't apply. He claims to have left but is creating socks to pursue the same point and using his admin abilities to unblock his socks. Frankly, I think he is playing a dangerous game and Misplaced Pages would be safer if he was desysopped immediately.-gadfium 19:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

As for why he decided to leave, I really have no idea. Although we live in the same city and go to the same University, I've never met him (to my knowledge) and have had very little to do with him until the last couple of weeks. I didn't vote in his RfA because I didn't know anything about him at the time.-gadfium 19:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, when I initially blocked I did not know who the "sockmaster" was, I just read the contributions and it was clear that the account was being used to get around a ban and/or otherwise against the spirit of allowable uses in WP:SOCK. It turns out that this was a larger case than it initially looked, and two sockpuppets were used by Konstable. Anyway, I think it makes sense to remove the admin bit from K for now, and if he does return and intend to do productive work here (as i've observed in the past he's very much used to doing) then it can be applied for again. Thanks/wangi 00:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh how I miss these wonderful debates on Misplaced Pages... Some mis-informed accusations from people who had nothing to do with the issue, yet only words of defence against the block from the people whom I've allegedly harassed. The first account was not disruptive, nor abusive. The second account, as I already said (but of course the point of these discussions is to say the same things over and over again) was created to finish off talking to people due to the discussion that was started on my talk page for some reason. If someone is accusing my second account of disruption for quietly talking to people on their talk pages, then I have nothing to say to you and recommend that you quit Misplaced Pages also.

It was my initial intention to take a break from all admin conrtibutions to get away from the mix of bureaucracy, trolls and arrogant elitists regarding which I was getting increasingly frustrated (and on my user page I made the edit " 01:10, November 5, 2006 . . Konstable (Talk | contribs | block) (temporarily suspending all admin contributions)" removing all mention of me being an admin). Though after being unfairly blocked for "closing AfDs" it was my first impulse to make a post on WP:AN detailing the reasons why I quit and why I have no intention to be admin any more, I ended up not requestiong to have "+sysop" removed because I thought that even though I don't want to have anything futher to do with this so called "encyclopaedia" (where? are we writing it right now? I didn't notice), I might change my mind one day and come back - so I would be able to help out again without reposting the long explanation that I had on my user page (deleted to stop discussion, I have left why should I have to keep talking about this). Though now it seems unlikely that I will actually return - this lovely reception on AN/I is the true Misplaced Pages spirit. A huge post on an issue which all rolls down to me popping in to leave a quick message to Ryulong on his talk page (who knows very well who I am and didn't seem to find this too "disruptive" as some people here would like to think, in fact he argued against the block).

Do what you will with my account, it will make you feel better and help you deny the bureaucratic mess, I want no futher part in it. Go on, maybe put a community ban on me for my latest crimes of talking to people, that would make you happy. No, I will not drop by any futher to talk to mis-informed people making false accusations of "trolling". If someone wants to contact me (regarding something other than "trolling"), use my email insted.

As User:Newyorkbrad said above, yes it is sad that I was here to help out enthusiastically, helped bring an article to FA status, have gained about 2000 entries in my admin log within 2 months, and now I want nothing to do with this project. And futhermore that people don't want me here. But that's how Misplaced Pages works. Two prominent contributors who've also left recently are User:Werdna and User:Draicone (actually both for similar reasons relating to bureaucracy), I hope more do leave, maybe someone will learn and quit this a mix of childish nonsense and bureaucracy.--Konst.able 00:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No one's stopping you from leaving, but don't insult everyone on the way out. --InShaneee 00:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You've not being sitting all day waiting on this post, have you ;) If you're going to leave then just do it. Otherwise help us out and get working taking more articles up to FA - it's the best response there is the wiki-nonsense (and more productive than admins!)! Thanks/wangi 00:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Just request desyropping and write some articles and do simple non-admin work like what I'm doing, just don't leave. Jaranda 00:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm still trying to wrap my poor little brain around what exactly happened here, but I can say that if it is determined that AltUser (talk · contribs) is Konstable, he is then also the user behind the impostor (or attack or whatever it was) account Ryushort (talk · contribs). CheckUser shows both were on open proxies, but Ryushort, which used one of the same proxies and was created at the same time, was clearly the same as whomever AltUser was. Dmcdevit·t 00:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, for the people asking for a desysopping, you should make a request for arbitration, as that's currently the only mechanism for desysopping. Dmcdevit·t 00:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm.. very strange. User:Ryushort, and imposter of User:Ryulong who is also involved in this discussion. I wonder who could have done this? It's very obvious AltUser was Konstable and if it's a fact that who created AltUser created Ryushort, then I support desysopping him as he would have become nothing more than a lousy imposter. Creating a new account to get away from pressure: OK. Creating an account to close AFD's in favor of deletion: Disputable, even a blockable offense. Creating accounts to mimic other users: nothing short of trolling. semper fi — Moe 01:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Erm, no Ryushort was not me. User:AltUser and User:AlternativeAccountK were both mine, and User:KonstableBot and all the unused accounts I created to prevent impersonation. As I remember I used Tor for AltUser (I used to have it permanently set up on my alternative browser, not trying to hide from CheckUser who I am or anything - as I obviously admited it was me straight after), so I would probably have went through quite a lot of different IPs there - you can check, either all of them or most of them would be Tor. As for closing AfDs, I'm out of steam in talking about that. Have fun at arbitration, I won't be there.--203.109.209.49 02:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to leave, leave already. You're editing is just getting to the point to where it alone is becoming disruption. semper fi — Moe 05:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Konstable. Thanks/wangi 01:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh just fucking leave him alone already.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously now. Cool it, I'm sure you don't want to be blocked. Konstable is only attracting replies by continuing to post here, although others should know WP:DNFT. – Chacor 09:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Going back to Matthew Fenton's point above about sysops unblocking themselves, he said

"Sysops are not supposed to unblock them selves .. even if its just a sock in essence you unblocked your self..?", am I correct in saying that if you're a sysop, and you're testing block options (e.g. edit summaries for blocking users, block options etc.) you're not supposed to unblock yourself??
As for the point about arbitration, that seems to have been the best course of action - I agree with this. --SunStar Net 16:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

72.69.86.39 continued lack of civility

User:72.69.86.39 seems to be trolling articles and being continually uncivil, calling people "dumbass" , saying "get a life", calling people dummies , calling other people's good faith edits vandalism , saying "wtf" , calling people prejudiced and so on --AW 11:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I have put a warning on his talk page explaining a bit more why (s)he should be civil and not attack. Keep an eye on them and if they persist I would suggest taking a look at our dispute resolution procedures. If they commit more personal attacks (they don't seem to be doing this much) then you may wish to take a look at WP:PAIN. Hope this helps, Localzuk 13:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, will do --AW 07:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Bartusio

I reported Bartusio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to WP:AIV last night but it was removed for lack of warning. The user was warned a month ago up to test2 and was given a test4 (along with other warnings previously) on an IP 69.160.118.105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I gave him a blatant vandal warning after its removal from AIV. It was also removed because the user appeared to have stopped ath that point.

The reason I went straight to AIV with this instead of issuing another warning is because of this edit . The user recognizes he should be blocked for what he does yet warns of more to come. He has no plan to make good contributions to the encyclopedia. I was also concerned with the personal attacks on me and the general incivility. I'm not trying to report this here because daddy said no so I'm going to ask mommy, but I believe this is a vandalism only account who understands that he should be blocked, therefore, the step-by-step warnings shouldn't have been necessary. Metros232 12:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Mangojuice 14:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem with site CSS

There seems to be a problem with the Misplaced Pages site CSS; producing the effect as shown in my screenshot above. Anyone know what's wrong?? --SunStar Net 14:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Appears to be fixed now. --SunStar Net 14:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It also appears to be a problem when viewing categories as well. --SunStar Net 14:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a still a problem when viewing pages; the lines that occur when you type in == x == do not seem to occur when the page loads. This has been happening while I've been viewing pages here... anyone know what the cause is?? --SunStar Net 14:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I had that same problem until about 45 minutes ago when it suddenly fixed itself. —Mets501 (talk) 16:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

See this wikitech-l post by brion. the wub "?!" 10:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Zorkfan

User:Zorkfan is currently blocked for 31 hours. He is now editing on Messianic Judaism as an ip. When he has been previously blocked he has also used sockpuppets to evade his block. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 14:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the page as it seems that the user has multiple/dynamic IP's. —Mets501 (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Izzy Dot

Please could someone review the edit summaries of this user who thinks it's OK to consisently use "gay" as an insult for something considered lame, and leave an appropriate warning for them. Thanks, Jenny Wong 15:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Mets501 (talk) 16:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User adding "No source" to scans of album covers

Tony fusi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is adding a "no source" tag to album covers even where the image has a fair use rationale (e.g. Image:The KLF-The White Room (album cover).jpg), and where the source is quite clearly stated as being a record cover. Who scanned an image of a copyright artwork is totally immaterial: the scanner doesn't acquire any copyright in their work, as it's purely a 2D digital representation of a copyrighted 2D piece. Only the owner of the album sleeve copyright has any rights in it. Thus, this tagging seems to me to be disruptive. Do others agree? --kingboyk 17:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge the author of the image needs to be stated (source) even if they don't own the copyright just like amazon is credited as the source for dvd covers etc. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 17:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's good practice at least, even if it's not required. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 17:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Kingboyk that this is (almost) pointless. The reason to identify the source is to make it possible to identify the ultimate copyright holder for purposes of investigating claims of fair use or infringement. In the case of an album cover the copyright owner is plainly obvious as the music publishing company. The intermediate source (Amazon.com or a person's scanner) is immaterial to the copyright. While you can make a techincal case that the record publisher should be cited by name (Capitol Records, etc) that seems like an overly technical point. Thatcher131 17:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm ultimately not clued up on copyright, but does this apply, perhaps? --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 17:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

technically, sure it applies. However, the rationale for specifying the immediate source is to enable investigation of copyright status. For example, a flickr image might be licensed with a version of creative commons license we accept, or a version we don't. With things like book, CD and DVD covers, it is obvious that the image is copyrighted, that the ultimate copyright holder is the publisher or distributor, and we are using under fair use, not a free license. In other words, specifying the source of most web images is essential to determine their real status; specifying the intermediate source of a book, CD or DVD cover adds nothing of value. I've said this in the past regarding TV screen caps; the identity of the capper has no bearing on the copyright status of the image. I would absolutely bow to the understanding of someone like Durin or Carnildo in this case if I am wrong, but I don't don't see any practical benefit to tag and delete such images, especially since they could be recreated in 10 seconds from Amazon. Thatcher131 17:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's easy to understand your reasoning, it seems very logical. Perhaps we should consider asking someone more qualified to tell us about such matters? --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 17:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd also add that the image I cited had it's fair use rationale scrutinised by the fair use eagle-eyes over at WP:FAC (it's used in a featured article). For this image to be tagged and possibly deleted because it doesn't say much about the source doesn't seem right to me. (Needless to say, I reverted on that particular image, but thought the issue worthy of discussion - which seems to be correct from the interesting thread so far :)) --kingboyk 17:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

See Template talk:No source/archive1#When not to use this tag and Misplaced Pages talk:Fair use/Archive 5#Album and single covers implicitly state a source for archived discussions of this matter. Thatcher131 18:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, excellent! :-) --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 18:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Might be some ammunition against the "don't allow album covers in discographies" brigade there too. The DK case cited is exactly the kind of argument I've been using to no avail in the past; good to see there's a a precedent for it. (see Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use#Album_cover_art_in_discography_articles)

Anyrode, anyone fancy reverting or fixing a few of the "source missing" edits by this user? --kingboyk 11:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. Well over 100 undone. Phew. --Guinnog 13:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

81.152.79.105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Vandalising the Madonna (entertainer) page. --VinceB 17:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please report this to WP:AIV in the furure. Thanks. —Mets501 (talk) 17:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Ckwee18

Has created advert article Tantra Gentlemen's Club and has repeated inserted mentions and links to in into Strip club and Gentlemen's club (traditional). I've tried to explain why he shouldn't do so, but of course he feels justified because he "met with the owners of the club". I don't want to violate WP:3RR so could an admin please follow up on this? —Hanuman Das 17:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted the article and the references in other articles. —Mets501 (talk) 17:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Terryeo indefinitely blocked

Moved here. 16:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

User:74.96.3.131

This user has repeatedly edited UFC-related articles in a negative way, entering comments from the banal and fanboy-ish to the outright slanderous. This user's talk page will testify to this and they have been given a final warning before. Time to pull the trigger methinks. Many thanks -- Crazyknight 17:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

24 hour block applied by J Di

Do we have a personal info issue here?

I'm afraid that the editor may have exposed personal information here, but I am not sure. What is the procedure? -- Avi 18:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I meant to say Gary Weiss editor, Mantanmoreland has said categorically that they are not Gary Weiss. Arniep 18:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you spin this ? Another typing error? The word for what you are doing is "harassment," for which you are digging into the trash pits of the usual attack websites.--Mantanmoreland 18:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

So it is just personal attacks and incivility, not personal info. That is a relief. Personal info needs to be revereted immediately. NPA/INCIVIL can be handled through normal channels. Although I am afraid I must concur with Mantanmoreland that Arniep seems to forget WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, and WP:NPA on a rather regular basis. -- Avi 18:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And on just a regular basis you and Mantanmoreland go round reverting "in sync" and post sarcastic messages about vandalism with little smiley faces on userpages of anyone that has expressed criticism of Israel (actually the last bits just Avi). Arniep 18:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that is called Freudian projection, Arnie . I use emoticons and smileys since body language cannot be transmitted in cyberspace. I daresay there are more non-Israel related smileys than not. Regardless, this is another example of your inability to assume good faith and what I am afraid is the projection of your own issues into others. -- Avi 19:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That is nonsense. You use the smiley faces most often when in dispute with muslim editors or people who have expressed criticism of Israel- please refrain from doing so and posting vandalism template messages telling people to "go and experiment in the sandbox" when they are clearly experienced and do not need to "play in the sandbox" and neither were their edits vandalism. Arniep 19:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid the facts would tend to disagree with you. And even not, perhaps my point is to show that I am trying toengage in open dialogue as well as see to the enforcement of wiki guidelines and policies, as opposed to some other editors that may come to mind ;) -- Avi 19:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that Avi is incorrect on this point . Contrary to Arniep's feeble effort to spin it, this was an effort to reveal my supposed "identity." My understanding is that purporting to reveal the actual identity of an editor is a bannable offense whether the "outing" is correct or, as in this case, wrong. I've been attacked right and left in an attack website and tabbed the identity of a well-known author because of my edits in articles unrelated to this one. Arniep picked up those attacks and harassed me with it. He should receive the appropriate penalty, which is an indefinite block. P.S. The "in sync" business is absolute rubbish, as our respective contribs indicate.--Mantanmoreland 19:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

MM how is it your first edit today was to leap in and revert the Mahmoud Ahmedinejad article when there was an obvious edit war going on? Have you been discussing this edit war outside Misplaced Pages? Perhaps you would like to explain why you have used sock puppet accounts to edit the Gary Weiss article to keep it to your POV as proven here? You're the one that should be banned, not me. Arniep 19:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And I see that you are, in addition, a meatpuppet of User:WordBomb, whom you are parroting, as further indicated by your sudden interest in Wordbomb's favorite subject. As for blocks, I can learn a lot from you on that subject, as you have a half-dozen so far. --Mantanmoreland 19:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I think all people involved in this behaviour - whether it be incivility, false accusations, personal attacks etc, need to step back and stop editing the areas of the site where they are coming across these issues for a while. Edit something else and think about what Misplaced Pages is - an encyclopedia, not a battleground for personal grudges etc... Also note that personal attacks, incivility and harrassment are not acceptable. If they continue, the editor in question will end up being blocked.

If you do not want to take a break for some reason, I suggest that you go to dispute resolution.-Localzuk 19:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I made an edit on Mahmoud Ahmedinejad (for the first time in many weeks) and User:Arniep, whom I have never encountered in my life, commenced the unprovoked assault on me described above. Are you suggesting that I cease editing Mahmoud Ahmedinejad because of this editor's misconduct?

"Misplaced Pages users, especially administrators, will not permit a user under attack to be isolated, but will support them. This may include reverting harassing edits, protecting or deleting pages, blocking users, or taking other appropriate action." --Mantanmoreland 19:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Based on the amount of arguing on this page that the 3 of you are involved in at the moment, I am advising all 3 of you to. I am going to warn the individual users using the correct templates regarding individual conduct, but it seems that the problems that are occuring are not going to stop simply because editors are warned. I am suggesting that all 3 of you calm down and realise what the purpose of this site is. What do you gain by sitting on this page and arguing between yourselves? All that will happen will be that admins come along and start blocking people for being disruptive. Rather than that happen, wouldn't you say that voluntarily calming down and doing something else for a while would be a better option?-Localzuk 19:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I pledge to not edit Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for the foreseeable future! (Trick answer.... the page was just protected!) ;) Seriously, I appreciate your effort to calm the waters.--Mantanmoreland 20:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. BTW. I am not an admin, just a friendly editor :) - ArnieP's behaviour is not appropriate and as such it should probably be taken to an WP:RFC. However, my advice was for the short term prevention of this fighting and to calm things down to allow all the editors here to understand the viewpoints of each other. -Localzuk 20:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe WP:RFC is for content disputes. This is the correct forum for disruption/harassment, and please note another editor raised this issue here, not myself. Thanks again for your good offices and yes I realize you are just a Good Samaritan.--Mantanmoreland 20:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

(outdenting) WP:RFC is for article content, user conduct, and policy proposals and article conventions, so it is an applicable use of that phase of the dispute resolution process. -- Avi 20:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, this is not the appropriate forum for this behaviour... Just so you know. As stated, RFC is the place to go if you cannot come to some sort of agreement.-Localzuk 21:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Arniep has also harassed me. He is a regular poster to Misplaced Pages Review. He engaged in what he saw as an off-wiki "investigation" into what he thinks is my personal life. He decided he knew who I was in real life, and he started posting what he thought were personal details about me on that website. He then passed what he thinks is my name to Daniel Brandt. I know it was him because he e-mailed to tell me. He said he didn't pass the information to Brandt directly, but did it via a third party, but I have no reason to believe him. However, even if that's true, he's still responsible for it. It doesn't surprise me at all that he is doing this Mantanmoreland. SlimVirgin 22:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the Arniep edit that (as he saw it) tried to out someone. An admin with oversight may want to get rid of it entirely. SlimVirgin 23:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is considerably more than a content dispute, and telling three editors not to edit a page because one of them harasses and makes threats is ignoring the actual problem.

According to WP:BLOCK: "Users who post what they believe are the personal details of other users without their consent may be blocked for any length of time, including indefinitely, depending on the severity of the incident, and whether the blocking admin feels the incident was isolated or is likely to be repeated." Arniep has attempted to "out" at least two editors here, and shows no remorse nor desire to amend his ways. He has harrassed me, accusing me (without offering any diffs or examples to support his accusations) of wikistalking. I have had limited contact with him, and every single instance has been him making wild accusations against me while ignoring policies, up to and including replacing a signed message by me with content of his own, leaving my signature. He has never acknowledged any error, and his attitude throughout has been of a bully who attempts to paint himself as the "victim" whenever his actions have been criticised. I see no reason for an Rfc; this user is not suitable for interaction with others. Unless someone makes an incredibly strong case for not indef blocking him for harassment, "outing", and disruption, I will do so.

Background of my interactions with this user: User_talk:KillerChihuahua/Archive03#Vandalism, User_talk:Arniep#KillerChihuahua, User_talk:FeloniousMonk/Archive_3#KillerChihuahua, User_talk:KillerChihuahua#Being_Stalked_by_User - in which Arniep calls a block warning a violation of CIVIL and misrepresents Thatcher131's actions, User talk:KillerChihuahua#Your message.

KillerChihuahua 23:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

There is "an incredibly strong case for not indef blocking him for harassment", Puppy. You're too late. AnnH ♫ 00:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

In that case what can I say except that, obviously, I support your block. KillerChihuahua 00:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, in that case it looks like we'd be better off without him. Also, my advice to not edit the page was simply to try and get all editors involved to calm down - as their dispute had rolled over to here - this seems like a pretty standard thing to ask them to do to me, as I have seen other editors and admins ask the same thing.-Localzuk 23:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Community patience

Has Arniep exhausted community patience? JoshuaZ 23:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Based on all the above, yes. Thε Halo 23:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I would say, definitely. I have had no personal disputes with him, but have warned him a few times. He has a long record of harassing other editors. And it's not as if he didn't know not to post personal details. He has been warned about it before. I've blocked indefinitely. AnnH ♫ 00:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The only reason I didn't request an indefblock when he tried to "out" me is that I try to ignore Misplaced Pages Review, and I didn't want to pay him any further attention. However, if he's going to continue with the same behavior toward others, especially on-wiki, he needs to go. SlimVirgin 23:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't need to have patience for this type of thing. Indefinite block is appropriate for intentionally repeatedly violating policies. - Taxman 00:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, trolls are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. If you have tried every attempt to make the user pay attention to warnings, have attempted to resolve dispute to no consensus on his part, and he is still being disruptive, theres no reason not to indef block. But if he is willing to change, give him the oppritunity before calling it quits. semper fi — Moe 00:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He has demonstrated repeatedly he has no remorse and no interest in modifying his behavior whatsoever. When applicable policies are given to him, he claims "harassment" or "stalking" or some other wrong is being done to him - and conveniently fails to respond to his own violations. I fail to comprehend in what way the repeated efforts to reach this user have been insufficient. Or are you unaware of how many chances he has already been given? KillerChihuahua 00:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was talking hypothetically about any user :) semper fi — Moe 00:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree and support the block. In this instance it is important to remember that this Amriep had had zero previous contact with me. I had never even heard of him before. Out of the blue he starts harrassing me for no reason whatsoever except sheer malice.--Mantanmoreland 00:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Support. If anything his already questionable behavior has been only been deteriorating. There's a Spanish proverb that says "Experience is not always the kindest of teachers, but it is surely the best." Unfortunately, in this case, Arniep seems to have learned the wrong lesson. Let's make sure we learn the right one. Jayjg 00:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He is usually unwilling to talk or discourse, Moe, as can be seen from the actions and edit summaries here, here, and here to show a few. -- Avi 00:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well then, theres no reason to keep him here is there? Support indefblock. semper fi — Moe 00:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As per WP:BLOCK quoted by KillerChihuahua above and the evidence presented above by multiple users, I fully support the indefinitely blocking of Arniep. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 01:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Support as well. Usually the users who are always unwilling to discuss tend to be the most problematic. Khoikhoi 01:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong support for this long overdue ban. In addition to today's incident, Ariep has been repeatedly warned about his incivility, intimidation, lack of good faith, backstabbing and conspiracy mongering. Here's an attempt to reason with him a long time ago: Offensive_comments_in_Village_pump_.28policy.29_discussions, Offensive_comments_in_afd_discussions, and here's a more recent one Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive143#Moshe_Constantine_Hassan_Al-Silverburg. ←Humus sapiens 01:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I support it as well... FeloniousMonk 03:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Throw my name in as well. Daniel.Bryant 05:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of a pile-on, I'll just add that Arniep was, I thought, trying to bait Avi on my talk page by deleting a joke Avi made there and insinuating that it was somehow an attack on me by Avi (which it most clearly wasn't). You can see it here. I wasn't that familiar with Arniep, so just let it go. But it all seems part of a pattern now. Support. IronDuke 05:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Repeated addition of gossip to Bipasha Basu

An anon IP, User:71.82.137.219, has been repeatedly adding a medley of unreferenced gossip to the Bipasha Basu article. She's a Bollywood starlet regarded as a sex symbol and this user seems to be fascinated by her. He has been asked, over and over, not to add the gossip re her personal life and has even been blocked for violating the WP:BLP policies. This doesn't seem to have stopped him. As soon as the block expired, he was back with the gossip. He doesn't break 3RR. He adds the junk, other editors delete it, and he returns the next day to add it again. He has never communicated with any of the other editors or admins.

Could we have a longer block on this person? Cleaning up after him takes time that could be better used. Zora 19:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Zora, I've sprotected the page, which will stop him posting as an anon, and I'll leave a note for him. If it continues when I lift the protection, I'll try a longer block, so long as it's a static IP. SlimVirgin 01:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing warnings squabble

A bit of a fight has broken out over whether DXRAW (talk · contribs) has to keep warnings on his talk page; Mikedk9109 (talk · contribs) is of the opinion that the warnings must stay (possible because he himself has been badly treated in this regard in the past). Anyway, I've reverted to DXRAW's warningless version, since I'm of the opinion that he can lose the warnings if he likes so long as he heeds their substance (and I think that this is the current trend of conventional wisdom on the subject), and am hoping to settle this peacefully, but I'd appreciate any help keeping an eye on the situation and/or bopping me on the head if my approach to the situation appears to be making things worse. Thanks, --Robth 20:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The cause of the dispute was almost undoubtedly me. Previously, the administrators who expressed an opinion have been of the consensus that it was inappropriate to remove current warnings from your talk page. In a more recent discussion, a consensus was not reached. I was operating on the prior consensus when I warned Mikedk9109, though he was never blocked for this as far as I can see. He was blocked for removing tags from images without resolving the issues, and for personal attacks. And I believe previously for 3RR violations. Anyway, I certainly appreciate other admins monitoring the situation. This is not really the place to discuss whether or not people should be allowed to remove warnings from their talk page, though. That really is going to require that a specific policy be written (or added to existing policy) and the appropriate discussion take place there. I think we need a firm decision but AN/I isn't the place for it in my opinion. --Yamla 20:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well everything seems to have resolved itself. I agree that figuring out what the best practice is in this regard and then proclaiming it from an appropriate mountaintop would be useful, as it's best to have everyone on the same page. This isn't the place for that, though, so we'll save that for some other time. --Robth 22:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• It's not such a good idea to revert war on another user's talk page. The more relevant question is whether he heeds the warnings or persists in the behavior that got him warned in the first place. (Radiant) 13:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Jemima

Mizzjayshin - vandal has been warned several times about her edits to Jemima yet she continues. KazakhPol 20:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours. Please use WP:AIV in the future; you'll get a faster response. --Ginkgo100 21:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please review contributions of User:Sir james paul

Can someone please review the contributions/article creations of Sir james paul (talk · contribs). My patience is low today, and I don't want to bite a newbie. Thanks. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 20:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Obvious case of repetitive self-promotion; now already reverted. The user has no meaningful contribs otherwise. He's been warned a couple of times and should be blocked if he persists. (Radiant) 13:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Objectionable user name

Is this user name (User:Da Niggers) allowable?--Light current 21:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No, and it was blocked indef already. User:Zscout370 21:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Suspected (C) Infringement not for imidiate deletion 1 line suspected, could not find appropriate area for this.

I incorrectly marked THE THREE MILE ISLAND accident for speedy deletion and then removed it to find a more sutable place, and I did not want to risk incorrect phrasing for a replacement sentance and look like an idiot.

On the first paragraph of ".../Wiki/Three_Mile_Island" page I suspect that the line with the foot note is a (C) infringement from the NRC Three Mile Island Accident Fact Sheet avalaiable here http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html

I apologize for this but I could not find an appropriate area for an administrator to review this.

JeffreyAlphaOne 22:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That page is by the NRC, an agency of the US Federal Government. Works of the US Federal Goverment are not copyrighted. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I did know it was by the NRC by coincidance I was looking at the NRC website last night and came here for more information on it. I'm somewhat of a Nuclear Disaster Afficianado. ( Well becoming one). But I thought they copyrighted their works, thanks though!

-Jeffrey- 23:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

They don't have that option - see Work of the United States Government. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And it's not much of a potential infringement anyway — it is a statement of facts, not directly cut-and-paste. It would be dubious to claim it was copyrighted anyway — saying the date that something happened and that it was the worst nuclear accident in U.S. history is not a very "creative" statement or formulation. In the future anyway you take these things to Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems. --Fastfission 01:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Tobias Conradi again

See User_talk:Tobias_Conradi#Blocked II ... Tobias Conradi (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has now been put on notice that his next ban may well be indefinite. There is a lot of history here, this user has been discussed here many times in the past. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please supplement the claims with supporting page diffs and links to the archive files. Durova 23:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that I'm not claiming anything. If Redvers (the blocking admin) doesn't get a chance to give more information here, I'll see what I can do to help out though. As you know it's fairly non trivial to find multiple incidents in these archives. Tobias's block log speaks volumes though. ++Lar: t/c 00:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This guy equates admins he doesn't like with people who commit "rape, violence, robery, murder, mobbing". Should have been blocked a long time ago... his behavior seems simply awful. --W.marsh 01:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Essentially, anytime an admin calls him on his incivility, tells him not to attack folks, or deletes an article he feels he owns, the admin is immediately accused of abuse. He operates at a hair-trigger, ready and willing to strike. He's labeled me as one of the abusive admins because I deleted an article he had created that met WP:CSD A1. He has made comments to the effect that he should be above the policies or they should be modified to his needs because of the number of edits he's made (which apparently number above 10k). I'd really like to find some way to get him onto the right side of the tracks because he's a very productive editor, but I've had poor results trying to work him through his admin issues. A heads up, CBDunkerson (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) has sided with Tobias in the past when he was being abusive, so anyone who tracks CBD's unique admin community interactions may wish to monitor this as well. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 02:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

THere's certainly a history of not being able to tolerate a difference of opinion: , , --Merbabu 03:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He's passive aggressive and has a persecution complex. He complains about abuse, but refuses to police his own behavior (when he moves lots of pages for example, he claims it's not his responsibility to clean up double redirects - it's the responsibility of the person complaining to him about the moves). He needs to be heartily beaten with a clue stick. Maybe a permablock with an out that says "If you apologize for every troll you've made, you can come back with a clean slate" would work, but I very much doubt he could swallow his faux pride. --Golbez 10:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

With this diff he basically confirmed everything I said. The last few days, he's ceased being a worthwhile contributor, he spends all of his time now whining. --Golbez 11:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Various incivil and inaccurate statements above aside... the matter at hand: Tobias Conradi got into some content disputes with Evertype. Both were incivil and edit warring. Various people warned both of them about this. Tobias Conradi removed one of those warnings from his talk page and Nandesuka restored it. He removed it again, she restored it again, et cetera... then she protected his talk page. He called this abusive and Naconkantari blocked him for that as WP:NPA.

Frankly... edit warring to keep warnings on someone's talk page is harassment. I've held that position for a long time and I'm not alone in it. Protecting a page you have been involved in editing is one of the few things admins are specifically told not to do. Protecting user talk pages specifically is generally discouraged as it cuts off communication and thus is only supposed to be used in the most extreme cases of vandalism / profanity / releasing personal info / et cetera. Thus, protecting a user talk page you have been edit warring on to enforce display of a message you know the user doesn't want to have there is, at best, a 'very bad idea' <tm>. Tobias Conradi calling it 'abusive' was certainly incivil, but within the realm of semantically feasible descriptions. Blocking him for a week over that seems to me excessive.

Put Tobias Conradi in opposition with any other user who also trends towards being obstinate and incivil in disagreement and you have a problem. That's a valid issue which needs to be addressed, if possible. The fact that some of those other users are admins is also rather a problem, and vilifying Tobias for complaining (vociferously) about improprieties doesn't make them any less improper. --CBD 12:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the NPA block was related to this which although not the diff listed in the block log was the statement which was visible on the users page at the time the block was placed. --pgk 13:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that'd fit the bill. I'd looked at the diff in the block summary, but it does seem likely Naconkantari meant the entire string and just didn't notice that part of it was added in the subsequent edit you linked. --CBD 15:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Tobias has a talent for making enemies on Misplaced Pages; if you went back though his edit history I'm sure you'd find many many examples. This is a comment left on my talk page after an episode I (and a number of other editors) had with Tobias (MichaelJLowe 13:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

I can't think of another user who has not yet been banned who is so consistently disruptive to both community and project. I dislike witchhunts but when and if you decide to file on this user, please ask for my help. John Reid 07:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed community ban for Tobias Conradi

I think that this user's penchant for clearly unreasonable behavior and wikilawyering make a community ban a reasonable option. Just as the latest example, he lists pgk's response to his unblock request as an example of "admin abuse." As an experiment, when dealing with his latest 3RR violation, I deliberately did not block him, but approached him informing him of the violation, and asking him to change his editing pattern. His response was to characterize it as a "threat", immediately remove the warning (and I disagree with CBD about this being acceptable), and add me to his List Of Enemies. Someone who can't distinguish between "civil interaction and disagreement" and "abuse" is not going to be able to participate meaningfully in an arbitration case. I'd therefore like to propose a community ban in this case. Thoughts? Nandesuka 14:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He clearly has no respect for the rules or the other users here, and has had far too many opportunities to change his ways. Support. --InShaneee 16:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never interacted w/ Tobias but after checking all the above i still see that it would be very appropriate to place them on probation. An indefinite block would be harsh to an established editor who joined wikipedia in 2003 (be them a pain in the ass or an angel). -- Szvest 16:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm torn on this. On one hand, he often makes useful edits and he's very productive. On the other hand, we're all volunteers here and quite frankly, he's shitting all over a bunch of people who really don't have to be here, and that's just poor chess. This is not a job, and we're not paid to put up with abuse. As he has shown no interest in speaking civilly with people he disagrees with and responds to just about everything that isn't glowing praise with baseless accusations, I think an RfC is entirely appropriate, and perhaps a ban is a proper possible consequence of the RfC. AN/I probably isn't the right venue for determining this editor's future, though. I don't really have the time right now to put together a representative case, but I'd be willing to assist. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Quite a coincidence on the unblock request thing, given it was posted about an hour before my comment above and about a month after the incident. I can't say any run in's I've had with this user particularly stand out in my mind. Looking a few diffs beyond that one I see this which seems to back up some of the sentiments above, agreeing with a blocking admin when it's against his view point is somehow "mobbing". He was clearly entitled to query my reasoning behing denying the unblock later something which my talk page clearly shows he hasn't (Though given there is a subjective nature to disruption It's also more than possible he still wouldn't be happy with the response, nor would I perceive an endless debate to be useful). Being frustrated at a denied unblock is understandable, but to my mind maintaining such lists a month after the event without seeking any input seems pretty unhealthy and certainly seems to require some action, if this can be getting to (and resolving) the root cause or an outright ban is debatable, though some of the comments above seem to suggest the former is unlikely to be attainable. --pgk 17:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't investigated this situation at all, but by coincidence, on MfD right now is a page in this editor's userspace compiling some of his more unpleasant interactions with admins. He seems to have compiled it to assist him in some contemplated (but never pursued) RfC or whatever, but as an outsider it primarily reflects the difficulty of dealing with this user. See WP:MfD#User:Tobias_Conradi.2F2006_summer_admin_incidents.

Please note that I'm posting this link because it might be relevant for someone following up on this thread. I hesitated before doing so because it might be viewed as publicizing some of the personal attacks made by this user. If this is a concern to any of the admins named on the page, please feel free to revert this edit. Newyorkbrad 17:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I did indeed make the comment cited above. I can't recall the ugly details of my interaction with Mr. Conradi but I can't get the taste out of my mouth, either. I would really prefer not to dredge up what went on between us but I will do so if it will help put a lid on this.

It is not clear to me that a community ban will be effective, however. This editor has all the makings of somebody who will not stay gone. If we throw him out hot, I fear he will be back -- and back and back and back. Diplomacy is called for but has already been attempted and has failed. I will make another effort but really, I don't know what else to do. John Reid ° 17:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Instead of a ban, this would make a good case for a probation period John. -- Szvest 17:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If probation were attempted, I'd suggest monitoring closely. I suspect, based on past interactions with him, that he would categorize the probation as an attack of some sort and as more evidence of cabalism. A user operating under those assumptions would likely disregard it, go out in a blaze of glory, or simply switch to a new account. The only way I could see any administrative intervention working with this user is if CBDunkerson (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) was the implementer. He is the only admin Tobias seems to interact civilly with, though I suspect this is because of CBD's historical enablement of Tobias's indiscretions. This brings with it its own set of challenges, of course, but should be considered. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course they would be monitored especially that their case concerns a dozen of admins. I would also support CBDunkerson to be their mentor though not responsible of their acts. -- Szvest 18:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Spam socks

It appears that 66.93.251.126 (talk · contribs) and 4.231.201.116 (talk · contribs) are socks of blocked user 66.93.251.114 (talk · contribs).

• 66.93.251.126 (talk · contribs) evaded the block to spam again here.
  • This user was involved in re-adding spam to LAN Gaming Center but wants unprotection of that article here.
  • Hiding talk page warnings of 66.93.251.114 here.
  • Harasses me here.
  • Re-adds forged barnstar (see below) here.
• 4.231.201.116 (talk · contribs) claims to be 66.93.251.114 here.
• Finally, 66.93.251.114 (talk · contribs) forges a barnstar from my talk page here, attributing it to blocking admin Moondyne.

Sigh – JonHarder 01:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks Jon. It's fixed now per my talk page. — Moondyne 04:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

JJay Talk page

According to WP:TALK, "Actively erasing non-harassing personal messages without replying (if a reply would be appropriate or polite) will probably be interpreted as hostile. In the past, this kind of behavior has been viewed as uncivil, and this can become an issue in arbitration or other formal proceedings."

JJay (talk · contribs) does not own his talk page, and removes other peoples' comments on a whim recently he removed my comments five days after I commented all the while he was actively editting. He has been told he in the past he does not "own" his talk page and should not remove other people's comments. Arbusto 02:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Actively erasing non-harassing personal messages without replying" - looking at the diff. looks like you are harassing him. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 02:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If it hasn't been said enough I'll repeat it for those not in attendence. Removing comments from your talk page is not against policy nor any guideline. In fact there is no guideline to follow. All WP:TALK says is that removing comments may interpreted as hostile. Nothing gives you the right to tell a user that he may be blocked or otherwise if he keeps removing comments from his talk page. The only exception to this is maybe in the case of blatant vandals only used to vandalize Misplaced Pages, which JJay is not. Arbusto, I highly recommend that you stop reverting his talk page now. Drop the issue. If it's of major importance, than it will always be in the history of his talk page that you attempted to communicate with him and thats all that needs to be done. semper fi — Moe 02:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing one's comments from the user's own talk page is not against any guideline or policy, but is strongly discouraged. You can freely remove one's comments from a talk page and there is nothing wrong with it. I agree with Moe, that it is the user's free will that one can remove comments if he/she thinks its hostile. He won't be blocked for it, and he is not a vandal. Whatever he does, the old things will always be seen in the history, and you can say that you had tried to talk to him. If he persistently removes your comments, then we shall see. --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 11:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for block

Please consider blocking SSS108 (talk · contribs) for repeated disruption related to Sathya Sai Baba. User began editwar by disputing references to Salon.Com in article, which led to a warning from user:Jossi (admin). User:SSS108 has continued to remove disputed references without gaining consensus among editors, leading to an RFA on the subject. Even after comment was obtained by ArbCom member (Fred Bauder), User:SSS108 refused to accept ArbCom decision on superficial grounds to the annoyance of several editors and admins involved in this dispute, for violating WP:POINT and WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND.
User:SSS108 has been causing great disruption at Talk:Salon.Com by repeating invalid arguments and continually misrepresenting arguments of other editors, leading to great frustration and annoyance in a gross violation of WP:POINT. User has also been accused of partiality and bias in relation to Sathya Sai Baba, as article was subject of previous ArbCom dispute where User declared himself as an "advocate" of article's subject. User has also been observed to be involved in long and tedious disputes of Misplaced Pages policies in support of article's subject, removing controversial material on superficial grounds. User continues to repeat invalid arguments and disrupt. Request is made for 48-hour block or longer to allow for a cool-off period. -- Ekantik 05:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sockish issues (V-ology, mini mammoth, et al.)

I almost reported this at Complex Abuse, but I'm not quite sure it meets the standards. Either there is one active disruptor with a lot of socks, or there are several meatpuppets engaging in disruption. I have a lingering feeling that there is a banned-user controller -- it doesn't have the "feel" of first-time malfeasance.

User:Niaga em has made several vandalistic edits , and created a page, Donkey list, to attack admins and users involved in several other article deletions (plus a lot of nonsense). I CSD'ed the attack page, but the tag was stripped by User:Ygolo-v. THAT user, in turn, has recreated the V-ology page (AFD).

Based on the contents of the attack page, all of this seems related to the nonsense involving mini mammoth (AFD), which was so bad the AFD was semi-protected. Yet another "article" related to this disruption was Big Black Donkey Balls (the impressive deletion log), which indicates that there are a lot more bad actors (or at least socks) here. Obviously, both of the current accounts should be blocked, Donkey list needs deleted (and both attack pages should perhaps be SALTed), but given the volume of nonsense afoot, I think further examination may be required. Serpent's Choice 06:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Anon IPs getting around 3RR block.

Requesting protection from anon IP on Universal Image Format. 3RR block on 84.73.254.103 (talk · contribs · logs). Unfortunately, the IP has now changed to 85.214.29.174 (talk · contribs · logs) and sometimes 61.155.107.33 (talk · contribs · logs). All have the same nonsense summary and refuse to discuss on the talk page (see history). — RevRagnarok 13:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Admin help requested on Georgi Parvanov

Over the last few days the Georgi Parvanov article has been having some very POV external links to self published websites added by several different accounts whom I suspect are the same user. Initially an IP 207.181.10.71 (talk • contribs • WHOIS • block user • block log), and more recently two user accounts Petervonpauer (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) and Petervonpower (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) All edits by each account have been n regard to links to these websites. Although messages have been left by several editors regarding the links none of the accounts have responsded. Diffs , , , , , , , , , , .

If these accounts are all the same user they have broken 3RR (though they have not been warned specifically for that), but more importantly these, links seem to be well out of keeping with our NPOV and BLP guidelines. The editors watching the articles and reverting generally seem to be in different time zones so the links stay on for hours at a time. Could an admin take a look at this? Or advise me if I need to take it to check user first, or take some other action. Thanks --Siobhan Hansa 14:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

User:James James

Hi, I noticed that ] had been renamed to User:Rose Garden at around February. There's a new User:James James who joined Misplaced Pages in August, who's now vandalising Misplaced Pages.

• History for User:James James
• Logs for User:James James
• Contributions of User:James James

I posted about him at WP:HD and was told that it might be worth mentioning here. Could there be a problem with User:James James, related to hijacking? --Kjoonlee 15:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, some of User:Rose_Garden's signatures on talk pages still link to User:James_James, so I'm a bit worried. --Kjoonlee 15:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

For the lack of any useful edits, I've gone ahead an blocked the new James James and restored the user and talk page redirects to User:Rose Garden. Thanks, Kjoonlee. ×Meegs 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Racist and insulting remarks by User:NisarKand

User:NisarKand has - once again - used racist and insulting remarks against an entire nationality/ethnic group.

He has been vandalizing various articles concerning Afghanistan (such as Afghanistan, Herat, Farsiwan, Kandahar, etc.), pushing for an unsourced and biased Pashtun-nationalistic POV, partly extremely insulting against national Iranians or Afghanistan's Tajiks.

Here are a few examples of his comments:

• "... I mostly see light skinned people among Pashtuns, while the Persians are mostly dark. We Pashtuns are well known to the entire world that throughout the entire recorded history, we always fought invaders and defeated them. This is perhaps the biggest reason to believe that Pashtuns remained pure for a very long time. ..."

• "... Afghanistan was called "Aryana" (Land of the Aryans) Only Iranians assume or think they are the true Aryans...this is 1000% false. Afghanistan was always the center of Aryans Aryans were those that lived in Afghanistan 1,000s of years ago. Tajik is someone that has Turkish father and Persian mother...or sometimes vice versa. I am making it clear so English people can clearly understand all this. Learn to live with it...if not...then take a hike to Tajikistan or Iran. ..."

• "... I know why you hate us Pashtuns ... because we are very popular and Iranians are not. Here are some examples: Pashtun invented nuclear bomb Pashtun went to space in 1988, a Pashtun (Ashraf Ghani) just almost made it to become head of the United Nations, replacing Kofi Annan, but dropped out of the race. US Ambassador to Iraq is Pashtun through his father, Pakistan's top cricket player of all time was Pashtun, Pashtuns were the first people to go to Australia in 1800s and start trade business there (check www.AfghanExpress.com), UAE's top Afghan business men are Pashtuns, most of the top business men in Pakistan are Pashtuns, the Interior minister of Pakistan is Pashtun...I can go on for hours and name show how productive Pashtuns are in the world. But on the other hand, look at Iranians....Iran's leader calls on whiping out Israel, making blank threats because he doesn't even have the weapons, giving to the world a very bad image of Iran and its people. However, it's natural for people to experiance jealousy some times but people must not take that serious. Pashtuns are naturally gifted with knowledge and wizdoms from Allah (GOD). At the same time, Pashtuns believe that all people of the world are equal, regardless of their religion, color, race, or ethnic backgrounds...that includes Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Athiests and etc. GOD created all these different people for a special reason that only he alone understands. This is just my lecture for Iranians and those that think like Iranians. ..."

These are just a few examples, not to mention his countless efforts to falsefy facts, to reject and insult authoritative sources written by leading scholars (Encyclopaedia of Islam, Encyclopaedia Iranica, etc.)

However, for most of the time, I tolerated these comments and only once reported him to admin User:Khoikhoi who protected the article Afghanistan.

After that, NisarKand started to take on the articles Herat and Kandahar, flooding the sites with wrong information and unsourced POV.

However, his most recent comment forced me to report him once again to admins, this time directly because of racism and name-calling:

• "... Finally, when Emperor Babur stated in his 1525 AD memoires about calling Tajiks "Sarts"....Perhaps he meant to call them "Rats" ..."

Admins need to react!

This user is not only flooding Misplaced Pages with POV and racist remarks, but also with politically inacceptable statments, such as taking pride in the actions of the Taliban:

• "... The Taliban were in fact Pashtuns and defeated the Tajiks after they assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud on September 9, 2001. This is history and has nothing to do with my own nationalistic views. ..."

Just warning NisarKand is not enough ... because he was warned before!

Tājik 17:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think just by what Tajik posted above, its clear that Nisarkhand is not only a POV pusher, but not a decent contributer. Just the amount of POV in the above comments alone is enough to show his disruptive editing.Khosrow II 17:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

A clear case for blocking - not just a racist, but clearly delusional too. Sikandarji 18:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the Afghan articles may have had a little unavoidable bias to begin with. How many Pashtuns have contributed? But that said, NisarKand is his own worst enemy. I think you should act toward people on wikipedia and you would in "real life". Going around insulting people whom you disagree is not going to get you anywhere and the some goes here. So, if he posts another insult (probably as likely as the sun rising) he should be banned. --MarsRover 20:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I advise for the administrator to follow User:Tajik's history...there you'll find that User:Tajik is going to articles of other ethnic groups and purposly removing sourced information. If you look at my history, you will not see me visiting any articles of people from other ethnics...none at all. This clearly means I don't bother people from other ethnics or countries. This User:Tajik loves spreading false information and reverting other people's hard work...all he does is revert pages without any such discussion on talk. This clearly makes people who are not Tajiks very angry. In other words User:Tajik is going around to stir trouble with people from other ethnics. There are too many incidents of this and I am not going to post all of them...User:Tajik's history on Misplaced Pages is self revealing evidence. Now he brings his fellow friends here to help testify for him...and I never even talked with User:Sikandarji before. I request User:Tajik be banned permanently, he is not here to help Misplaced Pages in any way. User:NisarKand November 14, 2006

This is not about "ethnicities", and it is certainly not about "only a member of ethnicity X is allowed to write about his people". This is about vandalism and racism.

YOU are the one who is deleting sourced information, and claiming that great scholarly works such as the Encyclopaedia Iranica or Encyclopaedia of Islam or "false" or "not realiable" (just ask Sikandarji who is a specialist on this issue and an academic in Oxford!).

Leaving this aside, NOTHING you say does justify your racist remarks. You have directly insulted other peoples with racist comments, and you are pushing for unsourced POV (like your claims about Pashtuns being the first humans in Australia, the ones who have invented nuclear technology, etc).

Because of your POV the article Afghanistan has been protected. And now you have started to mess up the article Herat. Your POV is not the biggest problem, because it will always be reverted and opoosed with realible scholarly sources.

However, your recent racist remarks (not to mention your previous racist insults against Iranians) are way out of control. Racists like you should be permanently banned - not because of your POVish behaviour, but because of your continued racist comments!

Tājik 19:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

My advise to User:Tajik is simply to leave articles about Pashtuns and articles related to Pashtuns alone. As you are an ethnic Tajik and you do not know anything about ethnic Pashtuns. In other words, you are not helpful in making people understand Pashtuns and their history. I suggest you focus more on your own ethnic group and help people understand about your own people (the Tajiks). I came to make articles that relate to Afghanistan and Pashtuns more professional, while you are removing my hard work. This is vandalism and a cruel thing to be doing. It's not helping anyone. If I ever leave, eventually other Pashtuns will make their way here and edit the articles with the same information I include in them. The reason is that all Pashtuns know very well about Afghanistan and their history. You are unaware about Afghanistan's history that you clearly stated in the NAME section on Afghanistan...Afghanistan's "FIRST" constitution was written in 1964. This is an obvious lie because Afghanistan had constitutions way before 1964. I provided to you the one which was written in 1923...HERE ----> Afghanistan's constitution of 1923 You purposly ignored my findings and until this day left the false statement that you made in the NAME section of Afghanistan. This clearly means that you are here putting false information everywhere. This is just one of your false statements I came across...and there are many. It is not User:NisarKand doing anything bad on Misplaced Pages....it is User:Tajik who is destroying Afghanistan's and other articles.

I proved to everyone I am not racist. I don't go visit articles about other ethnics, to an average reader...that's 100% clear evidence that I'm not racist. Now you just called me racist about 5 times or so...this means you are Racist for keep calling me racist. If you right now say to me "Hey man I'm sorry about everything...let's be friends" then that will show you are not racist. However, if you failed to do this then you are obviously a true racist. As for me...I am not a racist just because I call my self King. User:NisarKand November 14, 2003

NisarKand, your comments are totally meaningless and against the policy of Misplaced Pages. You claim ownership for certain articles, and then start to mess those articles up with unsourced POV. You claim that "Pashtuns were the first people in Australia", that is wrong anyway. You claim that "Pashtuns made it to space", which is also wrong: only ONE single Pashtun was INVITED by the Soviet government to the MIR - it was not an achievement of the Pashtuns, it was Soviet propaganda at the end of the Afghan-Soviet war. You claim that "Pashtuns invented nuclear technology" ... this is totally hillarious, because Qader Khan is a) not acting in the name of Pashtuns and b) Pakistan stole the technology from India! You claim that "Bollywood stars are proud Pashtuns", while all of them do not even consider themselvs Pashtuns (Shahrukh Khan, whose father was a Pashtun civil rights activist, does not even understand Pashto!) - at the same time, you state that "Tajiks should not consider themselvs Persians, because ancestry is not important".

You have not provided ONE SINGLE scholarly source for your claims, while - at the same time - you are constantly deleting scholarly sources, only because you do not like the message.

However, none of this is important anymore. You claim not to be a racist, while your quotes above clearly prove that you are a racist. This is not only my opinion, as you can see above.

You should be permanently banned from Misplaced Pages.

And, btw: I did not say "first constitution", but the "first NATIONAL constitution", because - unlike the earlier constitutions - the 1964 constitution was not simply dictated by the king or one of his advisers.

Tājik 20:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the information regarding the "first Pashtuns" to Australia Click Here!

Here is the information about the "first Pashtun" to invent nuclear bomb Abdul Qadeer Khan

For the 1,000s times again and again...a person who speaks Pashto language is not automatically considered Pashtun....as almost all Tajiks in Afghanistan can speak Pashto...that does not mean they are Pashtuns. You are still not learning this after I repeatidly told you and explained this to you. You have to have family backgrounds who were Pashtuns. That's the ONLY way to be considered a Pashtun. It is these kinds of misunderstanding you have about Pashtuns...and you are trying to make people think like you. YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG for thinking this way. go back to school and this time try to learn something.

I am not afraid of being banned from Misplaced Pages. I didn't plan on staying here for long. I work for the U.S. government, stationed in Afghanistan and I am a very busy guy. However, I can't reveal nothing else. I guess I've done my work on Misplaced Pages, regarding Afghanistan's article. I think I stated before that Misplaced Pages is for unemployed losers, and I'm not one of those. I am happy and excited that my work counts in the real world...because I make serious differences in the lives of poor people in Afghanistan. This Misplaced Pages or any other media tool is not my friend. I am now hoping to be banned from this sick site very soon:) User:NisarKand November 14, 2006

Well, then everything is fine. For your information: Qadir Khan has acted in the name of Pakistan, not in the name of Pashtuns, the same way Pierre Omidyar - the founder of eBay - is not acting in the name of Persians! The "Ghans" were not the first people in Australia, they were "subjects of her majesty, the Queen" - Pashtun workers from British raj who were deported as semi-slave workers to Australia by the British rulers. It is not a subject of pride - in fact, it is very sad! Another group of Pashtuns lives in Guyana, known as the "Afghans of Guyana". They were brought to South America to work on the fields, the same way once Africans were brought to America to work for their masters. Again, it is not a subject of pride, but the sad story of thousends of people who became victims of European colonialism.

As for the rest: have fun in Afghanistan. I am sure that noone will miss you here. And, yeah: you are still a racist because you called an entire ethnic group "rats".

Tājik 20:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not the Misplaced Pages complaints department. Dispute resolution is that way (points to WP:DR). Daniel.Bryant 21:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Obvious vandalism

The Music portal page has been vandalized. All it's left of it is "Bold text MUSIC IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND IT ROX MY SOX!! MUSIC ROCKS". It needs to be restored. Askorahn 20:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe it has been fixed. See WP:VAND for ways you can help with fighting vandalism! Daniel.Bryant 21:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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