Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:48, 14 November 2006

Welcome!

Hello, Kiyosaki, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Deodar 20:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Warning, Misplaced Pages politics is brutal

Just a warning, Misplaced Pages politics is brutal, especially with regards to the article you've been editing. In essence, your playing with fire, so be careful. For an example of how bad it gets and how many people get involved have a look through these two attempts to delete the article: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_apartheid_(phrase) and Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid. Notice how many votes were for deletion and the various accusations being thrown around -- you can tell emotions where running extremely high. The fighting continued for months and eventually ended up in a Misplaced Pages "court proceeding" (its called ArbCom here), which is about as serious as conflicts can get -- the court case is all documented here Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Israeli_apartheid. At least two people left Misplaced Pages as a result of these fights. --Deodar 03:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

What I am saying is be somewhat sensitive to the concerns of people who take this personally and resist the urge to bully people because there may be more editors of one persuasion editing today -- because such a move could result in starting off a cycle of ever increasing retaliations. --Deodar 03:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I have felt bullied already. I'll look through the reasons why some people wanted this article deleted, but with so many South Africans themselves seeing the similarities, it seems odd someone would try to "delete" it. I guess it's similar to the fellow who deleted an entire paragraph, rather than attempting to help contribute to it.Kiyosaki 04:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Email

You should set up your email address in your account at some point. --Deodar 17:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Your edits

Kiyosaki, in the interests of clarity, could you say which other accounts you edit or have edited with? Many thanks, SlimVirgin 20:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Kyosaki also, but I no longer use it becasue I forgot the password.Kiyosaki 20:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying you have never edited as anything else? What brought you to that particular article? SlimVirgin 20:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No and reading about Jimmy Carter's book. I was very suprised also to see no quotes from Desmond Tutu. They are totally relevant. I don't understand why they are being reverted.Kiyosaki 20:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You keep saying that, but won't say which quotes; this is the fourth time I've asked you. All you have to do is add them; there is no need for wholesale reverting. It is becoming very hard to assume good faith. Can you please say how you discovered this particular article and how, as a new user, you were aware of 3RR? SlimVirgin 22:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You violated the 3RR rule and won't admit it, you are exhibiting the lack of good faith.Kiyosaki 22:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

3RR violation

You have violated the 3RR rule, of which you are obviously aware, since you have warned others of it. Please revert yourself before you are blocked for this. Jayjg 21:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. I adding information, not reverting it out. Can you explain?Kiyosaki 21:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You re-inserted information that had been removed. That counts as a revert. You are currently up to 5 reverts. Please revert your latest edits, before you are reported and blocked for a 3RR violation. Jayjg 21:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

may I please review the rule somehow? thanks. Kiyosaki 21:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The rule is here WP:3RR. The trick is to take the edits to the talk page of the article and be patience. What usually happens is that two editors will revert your changes such that you have to revert more than 3 times while each of the editors you are revert waring against will only have to revert twice or so. It's standard practice on Misplaced Pages. --Deodar 21:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

As WP:3RR makes clear

Reverting, in this context, means undoing the actions of another editor or other editors in whole or part. It does not necessarily mean taking a previous version from history and editing that. A revert may involve as little as adding or deleting a few words or even one word (or punctuation mark). Even if you are making other changes at the same time, continually undoing other editors' work counts as reverting. "Complex partial reverts" refer to reverts that remove or re-add only some of the disputed material while adding new material at the same time, which is often done in an effort to disguise the reverting. This type of edit counts toward 3RR, regardless of the editor's intention.

If someone deletes a section about Desmond Tutu, and you re-insert it, you are reverting. Please revert your latest edits as soon as possible; the clock is ticking. Jayjg 21:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain what edit you are referring to? Exactly? Because there seems to be serious confusion. --Deodar 21:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There's no confusion at all Ben, as you well know. The edit summaries alone make it clear these are all reverts. Jayjg 21:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There is serious confusion going on here. SlimVirgin said on the talk page that people should not undo her copy edits and instead build upon it. That is actually what people were doing, or at least what I was doing. I understand that she reverted all of my changes to a previous version of the article earlier today while I was busy. That's simply wrong -- my edits are as worthy as her edits. I view the reverting back to the current version, which was derived from her version as fixing what could be considered vandalism if one didn't AGF and take into account her misunderstanding about the situation. --Deodar 21:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Not so. The entire structure of the article was reverted to before my copy edit. SlimVirgin 22:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

That isn't true, at least not by the time I finished my changes this morning -- you must be misunderstanding. Maybe we should revert back to that point -- my last edit after your changes. I missed exactly what happened afterwards since I was "busy." I put in a lot of time on the article this morning and on the talk pages describing the changes I was making. I have requested page protection of the article -- it seems in order. We need to work out these misconceptions since they are leading to an increase in strife unnecessarily. --Deodar 22:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove any info that anyone else contributed. How does that mean I reverted someone? let alone 5 times? Can you explain how it is that "I" am the one being accused of reverting and not the other way around? All I know is, is that the Tutu information (sourced and quoted) has been reverted out of the article.

What exactly do you want me to do? Remove the Desomond Tutu text?! Seriously, Jayjg is that what I have to do? Why isn't that considered relevant information for the article? How much time do I have?Kiyosaki 21:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Re-adding something that someone has deleted is also a revert. That includes the Tutu information. You may consider it to be important, others may not. Work it out on the Talk: page. Please restore the deleted Lee Bollinger and Fred Taub information. Jayjg 21:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No thanks, go ahead and revert me on that. They are less notable than Desmond Tutu, so if Tutu isn't referenced and directly quoted then why these guys? Jayjg, based on the rules I believe SlimVirgin violated the 3 revert rule, can you help me with investigating that? Kiyosaki 21:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Kiyosaki, the unwritten rules of Misplaced Pages do not allow for counter accusations no matter how valid they may be. Basically, the best strategy is to just be patient and let emotions calm down. I am extremely serious and I have your best interests at sake. Let's let the situation calm down. --Deodar 21:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, all I know is that I spent good time compliling great info for the article, with sources etc. but it's no longer there? How do you feel about the subject? Don't you think Tutu's comments are relevant to the subject? I don't get really. I was the one who got reverted, not the other way around.Kiyosaki 21:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There is another unwritten rule that if someone get's angry then they do rash things that serve to discredit their contributions. Thus if you let yourself get angry, you lose. I have found that patience is the key to editing Misplaced Pages because one needs to achieve consensus especially on controversial articles such as this one. Patience is key. --Deodar 21:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Part of Ben's advice is good; please use the Talk: page. However, the part about "unwritten rules do not allow for counter accusations etc." is just bad faith nonsense, which you should ignore. Jayjg 21:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, FYI SlimVirgin came to the page, made reverts and undid work by others, and he didn't use the Talk page first. I think you have the events backwards. Please review the history, you'll see.Kiyosaki 18:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's 4 Reverts and Rule Violation started everything: , , ,

On the first revert he says in the edit summary: "removed some problematic writing; tidied lead section" but this is false and misleading , it involved reverting and deleting information about anti-apartheid activist Desmond Tutu. The next three reverts are the same, they take out Tutu, and they threw the page into chaos. That counts as 4 reverts does it not? This is what started all the chaos. Kiyosaki 03:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Adding tabs on a talk page

FYI, if you want to add a section to someone's talk page, you may use the "+" tab at the top to add a new sections. -- Kendrick7 16:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's talk page doesn't allow this. Why? Am I wrong?Kiyosaki 16:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you first tabbed to the discussion page? here, then clicking "+" to get here works for me -- Kendrick7 20:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably, SV had her Talk page semi-protected and your account was too new to edit semi-protected pages. Kla'quot 17:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice to have someone back

... working in the sandbox. So many editors seem to just want to debate arcana on the talk page without actually doing anything. I'm still hoping we can get the article unlocked in time for Carter's book release. -- Kendrick7 03:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't respond to problematic statements

Regarding recent Allegations of Israeli apartheid talk page comments: Don't dignify problematic statements with with attention, because it will only cause problematic statements to proliferate. Trust that things will be taken care of by others with significant authority and who are close to Jimbo Wales, for example . --Deodar 16:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Please use edit summaries

When editing an article on Misplaced Pages there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:

The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you. ←Humus sapiens 23:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

dang it

Will you please stop going Leeroy Jenkins on Allegations of Israeli apartheid. It's not really not productive. -- Kendrick7 00:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Request

I asked this before but didn't get a straightforward response. Would you please say which other accounts you've edited Misplaced Pages as? It's very obvious you're not a new user, and the some of the pages you're editing have been plagued by sockpuppetry. If you have privacy concerns, you're welcome to e-mail the accounts instead, but I'm requesting that you declare youself as a gesture of your good faith. SlimVirgin 00:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I edited as Kyosaki, but forgot the password for that user and no longer use it.Kiyosaki 01:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I asked you this before but didn't get a straighforward response. Would you please explain why you broke the 3 revert rule within 11 hours, before I did and corrected myself as per the above?

1) , 2) , 3) , 4)

I would also like to know why you made massive changes and called it a "copy edit" when it was clear that the edit was more than mere copyediting.Kiyosaki 01:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The first edit wasn't a revert.

Please answer the question fully. Which other accounts have you edited as? SlimVirgin 01:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It WAS A REVERT. You undid information about Desmond Tutu 4 times. As WP:3RR makes clear

Reverting, in this context, means undoing the actions of another editor or other editors in whole or part. It does not necessarily mean taking a previous version from history and editing that. A revert may involve as little as adding or deleting a few words or even one word (or punctuation mark). Even if you are making other changes at the same time, continually undoing other editors' work counts as reverting. "Complex partial reverts" refer to reverts that remove or re-add only some of the disputed material while adding new material at the same time, which is often done in an effort to disguise the reverting. This type of edit counts toward 3RR, regardless of the editor's intention.

Why did you call that edit a "copyedit", when it was clear you were changing and reverting mass amounts of content? Explain yourself.Kiyosaki 01:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have the same question and would appreciate a clear answer. Which other accounts have you edited as? Kla'quot 08:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I already answered it twice. Now I would like to know why the edit that started all the problems was marked/masked as a mere "copyedit"? That was dishonest. Also, I would like to know why SlimVirgin removed sourced and relevant info about Desmond Tutu FOUR times and violated the revert rule? Thank you. I have reviewed http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:How_to_copy-edit and it says: Copy-editing involves the improvement of grammar and punctuation, and the correction of misspellings. It does not involve making mass changes and reverting others' work. Reverting Desmond Tutu is not a "copyedit". Sorry. Kiyosaki 18:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources

A primary source is "a document or person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs". Ian Buruma is a "person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs". Isarig 22:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit summary and preview are your friends

When editing an article on Misplaced Pages there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:

The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Also, it is recommended that you use the preview button before you save; this helps you find any errors you have made, and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history. Thanks again. ←Humus sapiens 04:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Star

Thanks. CJCurrie 04:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)