Revision as of 02:43, 18 November 2006

Coffee lounge

Related Discussions

• WT:EA
• WT:EA#Coffee Lounge straw poll

Issues

• The Coffee Lounge is perceived as containing total nonsense.

Discussion

It looks like no matter what the outcome of the MfD, the coffee lounge will be deleted. I want to make sure, however, that we still continue this somewhere on the internet. I really enjoy talking with fellow Wikipedians (that I wouldn't have met were it not for Esperanza), and I don't want all conversation to be reduced to Misplaced Pages-related chat. What do you guys think?  Shardsofmetal  04:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

We could still have the CL here, as long as the main MfD does not result as delete. I think that we should have restrictions on the Coffee Lounge, though. There is plenty of nonsense being discussed on that page. Why don't we create a new rule stating Only topics which have an article on the English Misplaced Pages may be discussed.??? Just an idea.--Ed 04:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that we should delete the coffee loungue all-together, because there is just no way to stop people from turning the Coffee loungue into a socializing place, without involving some sort of instruction creep. --¿Exir?¡Kamalabadi! 04:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. -- Banes 08:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd support a move to Wikia IF we can't have it here. It would at least remain a Wiki. --RoninBK_ETC 10:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

We could move it to the userspace as a subpage of someone and use User:1ne/Title to make it look like they weren't even redirected (it disguises the page title) editor review me!-TeckWizContribs_{# of Edits} 12:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If I recall, Template:Title was originally deleted because it was messed up for people who didn't use Monobook. 1ne moved it to his user space so it could be used on personal user pages. In any case, I don't think applying it to do some sorta Title Fraud would be the bestest idea. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 14:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't understand the difference between spending all day on IRC, talking about unrelated topics and not editing and doing exactly the same on Misplaced Pages space. Seems a trifle hypocritical to me. —Celestianpower 17:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

IRC was created for people to have conversaton. Misplaced Pages was created for the purpose of making an encyclopedia. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 20:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I would also support a move to Wikia. Of course, I would rather have it remain here. However, looking at the MfD, it looks like even a lot of the keep votes support deletion of the coffee lounge.  Shardsofmetal  20:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Coffee Lounge does seem very un-wikipedia related and perhaps it belongs on an external wiki rather than an encyclopedia. However having said that I have to agree with User:Celestianpower in that there doesn't seem to be a difference socialising on an external wiki or socialising on Misplaced Pages - were perhaps we can do a little good whilst chatting rather than just another IRC channel. User:Anthony cfc/signature

I would support the deletion of the Coffee Lounge (with a possible move to Wikia), but would approve of the creation of a similar Misplaced Pages-topic discussion page. In the eyes of the community, the Coffee Lounge is way past the point of cleanup. I think that the name (although I like it) attributes a lot to the feeling as well. But the creation of a new discussion page that is centered around Misplaced Pages and editing would be good. This new place would enable users to ask for help with articles, discuss Misplaced Pages's policies, and communicate with fellow Esperanzians. People could also use it to increase awareness about a particular article or WikiProject. We could leave the Main talk page for introductions, official notes, and other things. – Heaven's Wrath  23:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No way! It's is not going to be deleted! I object! Randfan 23:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Above it was said, or something to the effect of, "if there's no consensus, we'll keep it". That is a very, very bad stance to take on this. Face it; Coffee Lounge has to go. Yes, I frequented it, I posted there, I know all you guys very well because of it, but...well, it simply has no place on Misplaced Pages. It should be moved to a Wikia, and soon. Face it; everyone, and I mean everyone, thinks that we'll do nothing and we'll be debating again in a month. We cannot; we must take action, we must prove ourselves, and, well, the deletion of the Coffee Lounge is that action! We need to do exactly what no one expects us to! DoomsDay349 23:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it goes, my last Coffee Lounge wishes is to know what Wikia it goes on. Thanks for telling me (in advance) when/if it goes. Randfan 01:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the rule of topics with an article on Misplaced Pages?--Ed 01:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Because that covers just about everything. --Fang Aili 14:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Natalya stated the fact on the EA talk page that IRC is always available for us to use. Why don't we start directing users towards the IRC?--Ed 01:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Because not everyone can get on IRC. Some people's computers are too old to support it, some people use public computers.. whatever. --Fang Aili 02:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding IRC, every time I try to get on it, it says "Firefox cannot locate this address" or something. I'd love to get on IRC, but I never could. I'd totally support IRC pointing, provided we came up with instructions on how to use it someone told me how in the world to get on =P. DoomsDay349 03:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

For starters, you can try IRCatwork, then hop onto irc.freenode.net, channel #wikipedia-esperanza, and pick your nickname. If you like it, you can download an IRC client. Titoxd 21:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As I see it right now, there are three options:

1. Do nothing, and have the Coffee Lounge deleted by another MfD in the near future,
2. Delete the Coffee Lounge,
3. Reform it.

I would like to discuss option #3. I liked the idea that the "lounge" (and we should rename it to something more appropriate), could be a place to discuss things related to Misplaced Pages and "wiki-life", such as wikistress, Esperanza's programs, vandalism on X page -- but not a place for randomly talking about a new movie and the like. What do people think about that? --Fang Aili 02:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

There are separate talk pages for all those things... I take it the advantage is that the discussion would be centralized? -- SCZenz 02:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly as I understand also. ~ crazytales_{-My talk-} 03:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that it would be a good idea to just use WT:ESP for centralized EA discussion. We can redirect the CL to the talk page, and have an admin delete all of the archives.--Ed 04:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was trying to centralize the discussion on the Coffee Lounge particularly. I should have been more clear. --Fang Aili 14:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I made a suggestion about this on the Esperanza talk page, and will summarize it here to ensure that everybody sees it. I would like to keep the Coffee lounge, but should it get deleted, I think we should start over from scratch. We should create a new discussion page, with more limits. The first thing we need to do is have a different name. The name Coffee lounge suggests a place of relaxation and lack of productivity, which is not what we want. The second thing we need to do is create a list of goals/purposes for the page. Here is what I can think of:

• Help users relieve stress in an effective, efficient, and civil manner
• Allow editors to make wikifriends that might help them collaborate on articles
• Discuss current events, about Misplaced Pages or otherwise, and allow users to express their opinions
• Suggest appropriate Wikiprojects for users who would like to get more involved in the community
• Allow discussion of things that have an Misplaced Pages article, provided the discussion has some relation to the article (actually, this was Ed's idea, but I think it's a good one)

I think that this is the best decision because there are already users strongly opposed to the current Coffee lounge. If we create a similar page, that directly helps the community, and whose title does not promote using Misplaced Pages as a social network, I think we will receive more support.  Shardsofmetal  04:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I told another user (who supported keeping Esperanza) that while I personally enjoyed participating in the coffee lounge at times, there were also instances where the prevailing sense of humour there have really turned me away from the place and question its purpose. I don't have the diffs right now, but there have been instances of random dog noises, off-colour humour and random nonsense, none of which seemed capable of lifting people's spirits, let alone contribute towards the encyclopedia. In those instances, my wikistress went was increased rather than decreased by the coffee lounge. I know that I can be sensitive and that I have issues to work through, but surely there are other people who have had similar reactions to what they have seen there. I just wanted to let you know, as a member of Esperanza and as someone who voted "Keep, but with some reservations". --Kyoko 04:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

A rename for the Coffee Lounge would be good as this sounds like a social chat room on Misplaced Pages. A more appopriate name will be better. This is now mainly a social chat room and is mainly nothing to do with building the encyclopedia. The Coffee Lounge is not productive as of now, and our topics should focus more on the encyclopedia rather than our own social topics. --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 09:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see one of two things happen in regard to the coffee lounge. If it is to be kept, I would like to see a place where only wikipedia can be discussed. I think that the Lounge could be well served if we discuss Articles, and, sometimes, stress caused by editing, and nothing else. Rather than a Coffee Lounge, an Editor's Lounge. A place where all wikipedians can go to ask questions like "I'm starting to write about a popular video game. Any pointers about what to put in and what to leave out?", or "I've just come from an edit war at article X. Does anyone know any jobs I can do that will keep me away from this sort of stress?" Of course, the stress questions need to be handled carefully. We don't want "I'm about to 3RR on an article. Will someone come and help me revert this idiot so my version of the article will be there, and he can't change it without violating 3RR?". I think that any more social than this, and the Lounge can be in accused of social networking, and, if that is the case, I would prefer to delete it. And, just to be clear, this isn't an attack on the spirit of the coffee lounge. At one point, the lounge was a good place to go, and did a job well. However, I think both Misplaced Pages and Esperanza have changed since then, and it doesn't fit with where we're going now. Thε Halo 12:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally I would like to see the coffee lounge as a place to have lighthearted conversation about wikipedia. stuff like isint "AFD or FAC stressfull", or like "what do people think of this latest policy proposal". At the moment the coffee lounge almost seams to discourage conversation that is wiki related (At least thats how it always seemed to me). Also the only place that seems to exist on the internet for discussion of wikipedia in such a way are all very critically orintated. Personally I think that unless it gets transwikked off of wikipedia it's going to remain a sticking point with those who think it violates WP:NOT. With the way the winds are blowing these days I don't think the coffee lounge future is viable on wikipedia anymore. (I don't think it'll be long until somebody nominates WP:FUN either) The coffee lounges purpose is becoming divisive whitin the community and is alinating people from us as a whole which is a shame. The last thing we of all people want to do is divide the community which is what it's existance seems to be doing at the moment,

I personally would like to see it transwikked with a link left in its old place. It would also allow us to explore other programs and ventures off wiki that otherwise would not be suited on wikipedia. Games for example, I know a lot of people hated the mere idea but I found it way more effective then any stressbusting could have been.  YDAM TALK

While I think we should all take a realistic look at this and realize that any salvaging of the Coffee Lounge will certainly be challenging, I think The Halo has a very good idea. From what he (and others) are describing, it reminds me of a Help Desk geared more towards general editing than specific questions, which would indeed be helpful. If we can expand upon this idea, we might just have something. Not to say that it will save the Coffee Lounge, but it's at least moving the right direction. -- Natalya 16:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's my suggestion: delete the on-wiki coffee lounge and recreate it somewhere else. You guys already have the IRC channel which I think serves the same purpose, but if you're looking for something that's more wiki you could always start a Misplaced Pages Member's Club on Wikia or something. It just doesn't really belong here. --Cyde Weys 17:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion: the coffee lounge stays, but all topics must be strictly related to Misplaced Pages. Moderators could promptly delete topics irrelevant to the project.--Húsönd 20:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That's an idea, make it more relevant to Misplaced Pages as a whole rather than continue as an insular chat room. BTW, I wrote that I was put off by some off-colour humour in the coffee lounge before. I don't want to dignify what was said by repeating it, but there have been times when the jokes there have become sexist and offensive, and that sort of content shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages at all. --Kyoko 20:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I find myself agreeing with the idea of strict moderation. I already proposed something akin to this prior to the MFD, but it was cut up mostly. Now, I think we can adopt the idea. The point would be to have a group of users regulate the lounge to only Misplaced Pages related things. And that means inner-wiki things, like debate of policies and whatnot. This could emerge as something totally opposite what it is; a good place to debate over Misplaced Pages stuff, like, for instance "There's a clause/section in such-and-such a policy that I don't agree with, does anyone have ideas for revision?" Which is almost better than doing it at the policy talk page, because this way it gets more traffic. And also agree with issues of stress...question, would a message like "I'm stressed, could use support" border too far on social networking? DoomsDay349 21:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that would be okay (then again, I'd probably be called a dirty inclusionist for saying it. Funny how often that happens, dispite my record at XfD saying otherwise ;) as long as that doesn't turn in to "You're stressed? Well, sit down, and let's talk about something else. Did you see the new Johnny Depp movie?". Thε Halo 21:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Adding my two cents here. I haven't followed the discussion as much as I would have liked, as I don't have the time to do it, but I have always seen the Coffee Lounge as slightly outside WP:NOT, but not severe enough to require action. However, lately, I began to see that patent nonsense was being added (case in point, the dog barking noises), and sadly, the only way that anything can be salvaged is by nuking the page and starting anew. So, I'd like to see something similar to what The Halo suggests: something akin to a WikiProject noticeboard, where the effects of new policies are discussed, assistance from other editors is requested, comments about articles and their improvement are made, etc. Anything but what we have right now, where editors are actively discouraged to talk about Misplaced Pages issues. Titoxd 21:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: I've started a straw poll on the main Esperanza talk page about what to do with the coffee louge - delete and start again with a different focus, says I. Moreschi 21:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That's essentially my few, but then why bother deleting it when we can just revamp the page? DoomsDay349 00:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How about a mixed solution, where a redefined (OK, deleted and rebuilt from scratch) form exists on Misplaced Pages, and a less regulated and more relaxed form is created on another wiki site? I think that something like this would satisfy both those who want to make a strict Misplaced Pages-related forum here as well as those who want the freedom to say whatever they want. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. --Kyoko 21:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, although I'd not be participating in the Wikia one. But if it keeps others happy without hurting Misplaced Pages, then no problem in my book. DoomsDay349 21:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with that as well. But it seems like there aren't that much people who want the lounge off-wiki. What it appears to me right now is that there is considerable amount of votes in both "delete and restart" and "archive/close and restart". That's what we need to compromise on.--Ed 23:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Resolutions

Discuss on the section above, but vote for the resolution here.

Delete the Whole Coffee Lounge Permanently

• Support Personally, I think this is the only option if Esperanza wants to actually reform and refocus themselves instead of merely finding a way to do the same things in a way that will be tolerated. You don't need a free-form chat page, what you need is focus. There are ample opportunities to have discussions centered around activies related to Misplaced Pages. The entire purpose of the Coffee Lounge, as I see it, is to provide a place for unstructured conversions with no focus or relationship to Misplaced Pages. This is one of the fatal flaws that has irritated the rest of the Wikipedian community to the point that was evidenced in the recent MfD. The coffee lounge needs to go and the entire mindset behind having a coffee lounge needs to be addressed. If you can't get rid of the most egregious example of what's wrong with Esperanza, then there is no hope of reforming Esperanza and the whole thing needs to go. The fact that not a single member of Esperanza recognizes this by supporting this option is an ominous indication for the future of Esperanza. —Doug Bell  02:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete the Lounge and Start From Scratch

• Support There should be a place for Esperanzans to discuss wikipedia related issues, especially such ones as "hey, I worked on this article, tell me what you think", or "I just got a barnstar, just wanted to share with everyone" or "I am under a lot of stress after this contentious edit war. What do you all think". The problem seems to be that the Coffee Lounge carries too much baggage for what it was. No idea what to call the new page, but it should not have the words Coffee or Lounge in it. I support the need for an open-ended wikipedia related discussion forum, without the sillyness. I was never really comfortable with the silliness and the games anyways. --Jayron32 04:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Though I've said this elsewhere, I might as well here too. I'm in favour of deleting the coffee lounge in its current form. I think that deleting the coffee lounge, instead of just revamping shows that we, as a group, are serious about cleaning our organization up, and working towards the encyclopedia. By deleting the lounge, we are not only ending a period in Esperanza's life which is now over, we're also sending out a strong message to both Esperanzians and those who wanted Esperanza deleted. If the is then a consenus to start a lounge type thing more geared to the encyclopedia, then we will create that. Thε Halo 15:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per The Halo and my views in the poll on the main Esperanza talk page. Moreschi 16:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - The Coffee Lounge isn't critical to Esperanza. As such, it should probably be deleted, especially because Esperanza sans Coffee Lounge is less likely to be totally deleted. If there has to be something like the coffee lounge, it shouldn't be a "lounge", but a "general discussion forum" (yes, this is a euphemism) which allows for casual discussion of various wiki-relevant topics. This fits with an idea at the Charter overhaul that Esperanza is a sort of "meta-WikiProject" that aids in general collaboration and user support. Make a new page rather than moving the Coffee Lounge - this emphasizes the change, and I want that to be as obvious as possible: all the better that non-Esperanzians understand more easily that we are not a social club, even if we do, as a project, provide support to users socially. Nihiltres 17:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Sounds good - Get rid of it and start anew, making sure from the beginning to keep appropriate guidelines and such in place. This is a lot easier than trying to reform the current coffee lounge, as there is some inertia to deal with. --Cyde Weys 20:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support, per what I wrote above. Titoxd 21:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support, per my above statements. With very strict regulation, and appointed monitors. Only discussion of inter-wiki topics, like policy changes, as well as third-party stress alerts, i.e. "This user is stressed" but not "I am stressed". DoomsDay349 00:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Though I support deleting the archives and keeping the page for it's history, I would also support a full delete.  Shardsofmetal  21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Its not needed. Making a new one would ensure that it doesnt have the same problems from the start - • The Giant Puffin • 23:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support, but archive the contents off Misplaced Pages as well. It's funny that User:Shardsofmetal and I had the same idea (see above in discussion) about having a Misplaced Pages-related forum here, and a more relaxed one being created on another website. I think that the current contents should be archived, just not here. This way, the less serious content can maintain some sort of continuity on the new website. There should also be links from one forum to another to allow easy access. --Kyoko 01:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Archive and close the Lounge, then start from scratch

• Support: I added a new section because I believe we need a fresh start, but still don't want to lose the old discussions. If we move everything currently on the Coffee Lounge to archives (leaving the archives where they are) and move the main coffee lounge page to a new place/name, start afresh with guidelines and regulations, and ensure that they are enforced, I believe it will work. — Editor at Large 18:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support Although I support deletion and recreation, this option is compatible with my view. Nihiltres 19:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Can someone explain to me the value of keeping old Coffee Lounge discussions? The main problem with the Coffee Lounge is the lack of content that isn't unencyclopaedic social-networking dreck - I can't really see the point of archived dreck. Surely the archives should go, full stop? Moreschi 19:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment-I agree with Morechi.The whole reason we are changing the lounge is because of what would be in the archives. editor review me!-TeckWizContribs_{# of Edits} 20:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• I agree too; there's really no point in saving what ends up being little more than chatlogs. --Cyde Weys 20:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment We could still keep this page archived, it would show how Misplaced Pages dealt with the problem. We can delete the archive pages, but keep the actual Coffee lounge page for it's history.  Shardsofmetal  21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support I believe that there should be a more Misplaced Pages-related discussion page here, and the old Coffee lounge to Wikia. That way we don't loose the ability to chat freely, but we also have a constructive page here.  Shardsofmetal  21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support It might be a good idea to mark the Coffee Lounge historical as well.--Ed 23:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Move the Coffee Lounge Somewhere Else (another Wiki)

• Support. I don't mind the coffee lounge principal, only its presence on Misplaced Pages. See also my vote on the straw poll. Dar-Ape 04:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support I think that any continuied existance of the coffee lounge on wikipedia will only continue to polerise us against the rest of the community. It's clear from the mfd that a lot of people on wiki find the whole concept antithema to their idea of wikipedia. Unfortunatly I don't think reforming the coffee lounge will satisfy them or the general mood that seems to exist against esperanza at the moment.  YDAM TALK 17:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• I like this one too. I'm guessing a Wikia would be the likely target. --Cyde Weys 20:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support As I mentioned above, I support moving the current Coffee lounge to Wikia, and in addition creating a constructive Misplaced Pages-related discussion page here.  Shardsofmetal  21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Stong oppose Why on earth would we move it to another wiki! Whats the point. How is it deconstructive? It is very constructive as it allows users to make friends and build a community. Culverin? 23:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Still Keep the Lounge, But Add Regulations

*Support--Ed 00:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support as per my above position.--Húsönd 02:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support FireSpike 00:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

There's Nothing Wrong with the Lounge

• Strongly object - I don't think there's anyone who can legitimately claim that everything is fine the way it is. --Cyde Weys 20:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I agree. I don't think there's anyone who will even try to claim that (but if someone does, I'd be interested to see how they try to...)  Shardsofmetal  21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Support Now thats where your wrong. I can. The lounge was a fun place. A place where we could help each other. Talk to each other. And support each other. It was a great community building place. I made use a family. It was great. Why not keep it the way it was?

• Culverin? 00:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)