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SPUI.. again

How does everyone feel about a community ban on SPUI? After two blocks for adding the SQUIDWARD edit summaries he stopped. But as soon as he returned, he was blocked for 31 hours for a 3RR violation. It's becoming very obvious that he is coming to Misplaced Pages to disrupt with every edit he makes and not to contribute positively. semper fi — Moe 19:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

All prior warnings, notices, and recommendations that he stop become covered by an admin. Yes, you can revert so that it is visible, but when its been covered several times, recovering becomes an incredible hassle. Looking at his block log and his recent edits, it seems as if he does not want to constructively contribute to Misplaced Pages after "leaving." How many "second chances" must we give this destructive user? Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. He's had too many chances. --Kbdank71 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to see SPUI community-banned. He's made a lot of good encyclopedic edits, and I think he's a good user. OK, so he had a moment of madness, but he's a decent editor, IMHO. --SunStar Net 19:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

God let's end this already. Yes, he was a very prolific contributer, but I don't think he's here to be constructive anymore. Also, all my recent real-life experiences tell me that I would rather have someone who contributes less but doesn't cause any trouble, than someone like this. Grandmasterka 19:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

His 3RR block is kind of odd. He reverted the featured article of the day 4 times by removing what he considered was unsourced original research, and then reported himself on the en-wiki mailing list. Thatcher131 19:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Categorizing his recent 3RR block as typical of any past disruption he may have been involved with is not fair, IMO. Even the best editors go into 3RR from time to time, and this specific instance involved enforcing the Misplaced Pages original research policy on the article that sat on the front page all day. Whether he's exhausted the community's patience, I have no real input on, although I think he does valuable work here. But let's not try to frame this specific instance from yesterday as part of anything greater than what it was. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)...or as Thatcher said above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose community banning. SPUI deserves an RFC to start with anyway, not some AN/I discussion. Bastiq▼e 19:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

We tried that. Others came and defended him, ignoring the evidence. WP:RFC/SPUI --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The current popular principle behind a community block is that if no admin will unlbock then the block was probably OK. That isn's going to hapen with SPUI.Geni 19:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose community ban. He is hardly contributing and not really a problem now. If he is indefblocked for something he has recently done, I will unblock him after a reasonable amount of time. Kusma (討論) 19:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because he's hardly contributing doesn't mean he hasn't been a problem. Ever since the beginning of October he has been a problem. Lets look at the facts shall we:

• October 12-13 he edits with SQUIDWARD summaries:

He recieves a block: 03:41, 14 October 2006 Lar (Talk contribs) blocked "SPUI (contribs)" with an expiry time of 15 minutes (Please stop SQUIDWARDing...)

• He returns October 23/24 to edit with the SQUIDWARD summaries again:

Blocked again: 05:19, 24 October 2006 Konstable (Talk | contribs) blocked "SPUI (contribs)" with an expiry time of 8 hours (again, please stop SQUIDWARDing)

• He returns on November 3-5 to edit V for Vendetta (film) and it's talk:

Blocked again: 03:35, 5 November 2006 Phil Sandifer (Talk | contribs) blocked "SPUI (contribs)" with an expiry time of 31 hours (Violation of 3RR)

Literally the only edit he hasn't been blocked for in the last month is blanking his talk page with an Image of a duck. semper fi — Moe 19:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Sad, isn't it? Apparently as long as you have some good contributions, you get to act however you want, and your admirers, defenders, whatever, will at best hand out a series of 24 hour (or less) blocks, and at worst, ignore the behavior completely. Can anyone explain why this has been allowed to continue? --Kbdank71 20:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Because he's made 74,000 contributions. Of which 40,000 are probably controversial page moves which have been corrected by new

guidelines now.. :\ semper fi — Moe 20:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, and we have no real method of knowing which contributions are constructive. The page moves did nothing but create mass controversy and led many editors to quit in disgust. It's even worse when one or two admins reverted his blocks because he was such a good editor. I'll repeat what Lar spoke of during some controversy that SPUI created: "No one editor is indispensable to the project." If SPUI becomes a nuisance, then he should not be able to contribute in that manner; yes, he made good edits, but so have we, and the project continues forward. Whether or not we have SPUI is irrelevant; there will always be other editors to take his place, as clearly demonstrated today. After his "leave", we still have editors on road topics throughout all 50 states that do fine without SPUI. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because we're here to contribute? On a more serious note, I don't see what exactly is bannable here. Prior to the V 3RR thing, he got blocked for using weird edit summaries on edits that either attempted to remove OR marginally-encyclopedic material or were RfA votes. His second block was for squidward edit summaries on two talk pages. How is this significantly more grounds for banning than using no summary at all? Are people that bothered to see "squidward" on the RC list twice in two days (in latter case)? I agree with Jeff on the description of the V incident. --user:Qviri 20:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You need to review all of his prior blocks to get a good idea of how much he's gotten away with... Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

SQUIDWARD! is the name fast-pace vandal. The vandal generally gave the edit summary SQUIDWARD! as he was vandalizing. SPUI copyign that was inappropriate, whether he was vandalizing or not. semper fi — Moe 22:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's because the case is not made at present. If the guy is reporting himself for 3RR, then it may be WP:POINT, but it's hardly serial disruption. Basically, we can't see how he's going to behave after the last block. He has built up a lot of animosity from some people, and they're very ready to get the gallows ready, but I don't see him currently earning the noose. I think it has to be an unrepentant pattern, and the only unrepenting problem was the edit summaries, and now he's repented. Geogre 20:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The 3RR may not be serial disruption. What would you call the remainder of his block log? And so what if he's repented? Maybe it's just me, but to see problem, repent, problem, repent, problem, repent, would seem to indicate we have a problem with more than just SPUI. Look, I make no assumptions that this will go anywhere; as I said, there are too many people willing to overlook too much. --Kbdank71 21:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It was a serial disruption when SPUI was disrupting page after page with his own naming conventions. It's been done in the past, which should not be overlooked. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 01:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely: it should not be overlooked, and I wouldn't advocate turning the other way. The question isn't, I hope, all or nothing. I just didn't see anything going on since that nasty episode. If it does, I'll be on board with a community ban, but I think community bans should be when the other person isn't acting out of an interpretation of what's best for Misplaced Pages. When the other person is misinterpreting or being petulant about their views of policy and practice, ArbCom's deliberative process should be best. When a person is just exhausting everyone by insisting after a clearly settled issue or pride or a desire to play gotcha with someone or a desire to settle political scores (real life ones, like the nationalists and monomaniacs), then it's community patience. That's my view, anyway. Geogre 02:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's my take on the situation. Give him a block that will actually prevent him from disrupting (a few days or so). See how he acts then. If he socks during, or continues acting up after, then I think that should remove some doubt. --InShaneee 03:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah why not? A community ban for a few days? Or a week? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

A short block with the intention if we can bait a user into sockpuppeting is not something I could ever support. However, a permanent community ban for SPUI, who has committed many, many times more infractions and disruptions than plenty of other permabanned users, has ignored countless requests, decisions and judgements, and is bizarrely and inexplicably supported by some admins (is he nice to them on IRC?), and has driven good editors away from Misplaced Pages, is something I would get behind. This needs to go to ArbCom, and this needs to be resolved. Proto::type 12:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose any community ban through ANI. This better be taken through an RfC. — Nearly Headless Nick 12:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Note, it's been taken through RfC before... He's exhausted all of our patience, and its senseless to keep taking it to ANI, RfC, etc. if the outcome is going to be the same: status quo. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what a short block would solve either. While I've given SPUI blocks in the past to try to get him to stop being disruptive, maybe those just don't work with him. On the other hand I DO think he adds value and would hate to see him permanently banned. Is there nothing else? No other way to reach him and get at whatever the root issue is? I guess I am more willing than some to keep trying with SPUI. But in the end Misplaced Pages is not... a lot of things, including a selfhelp org for those that don't want to change, or a babysitting service, or a group therapy session, or a twelve step program, among others. If there is no change possible then, so be it. One more chance maybe but, really, no more. (as an aside, I totally reject the notion Badlydrawnjeff advances above, that "even the best editors go into 3RR sometimes" I've never, ever, ever done that...) ++Lar: t/c 12:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I longer short block than before would accomplish something in the fact that it would actually prevent him from doing something, whereas the previous blocks of a few minutes/hours it has been suggested he may not have even noticed (I did not mean to 'draw out' sockpuppets as suggested above; I merely meant that a preventative block must actually prevent something to be effective). --InShaneee 16:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've had enough of this. He needs to be banned. Now. ANYONE who has the mentality that they can do whatever the hell want, like SPUI clearly does, should be blocked. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 12:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok... so when the huge edit war over road names he was involved with wound up with a decision he opposed being forced through in unusual circumstances despite a lack of true consensus (again, there were reasons this had to be done and as one of the people who backed it I am here criticizing myself) the 'massively disruptive' reaction he had was to continue making valid contributions, but using the edit summary "SQUIDWARD". For this heinous crime he was blocked... twice. Then, when asked to stop using such summaries... he did! Dastardly. Instead, he went and explained that he was making changes to a new page to remove original research... some sort of theory about how the 'V' in 'V for Vendetta' was probably a reference to the roman numeral for five. That looks like original research to me. Removing it with explanatory edit summaries was therefor... proper. Edit warring when it was re-inserted was not, but seems hardly grounds for a community ban. It seems to me that SPUI is giving his detractors thin pretexts to demonstrate their bias and animosity towards him... and they are happily obliging. SPUI is not being a model Wikipedian, but as reactions to brow-beating and tossing consensus out the window go this isn't exactly the end of the world. --CBD 16:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree CBD. We shouldn't be simply community ban someone for a 3RR or for a few mild edit summaries, but when is enough, enough? His edits aren't as much as the problem as the attitude and straight-fowardness of his edits. It's not that his edits are wrong, but he pushes the issue until his opposition either gives up or a third party gets involved or blocks him. Really how many things has he done that has gotten himself blocked over his time on Misplaced Pages. Just to name a few:

• Moving Highway articles a lot
• Move warring
• 3RR violations
• Incivilty
• POINT violations
• Blatant vandalism
• Disruption
• personal attacks
• Copyright violations
• Testing Misplaced Pages's browser blocking code on User:SPUI/jajaja
• per ArbCom decisions for putting pro-pedophile userboxes on his userpage
• Probation violations
• SQUIDWARD! edit summaries

Again, he may not be wrong, but the way he edits is disruptive and non-helpful. It's not a question anymore of how useful or correct he was a year ago or a few months ago as some people agrue. We have community banned former administrators before. SPUI has made several useful contributions before, no question, but so have other banned editors. How far do we push each ourselves with SPUI? How far before we say 'enough'? semper fi — Moe 17:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You ask 'how far'. My standard is quite simple... 'has it reached the point where it seems clear this user will never be a positive contributor'? I look at 'squidward', a 3RR violation in pursuit of 'no original research', and ducks in a pram and see 'silly git'... not 'irrational monster beyond all hope of redemption'. Everything else you list up there is what, months old? And many of them seemed, to me, as much over-reactions and misrepresentations as the accusations of 'blatant vandalism' which accompanied his silly 'squidward' edit summaries (despite no vandalism actually being involved). To put it another way... SPUI made positive contributions, but put a silly 'squidward' edit summary on them. He was then falsely accused of vandalism and a community ban called for. His reaction? He issued no personal attacks, made no disruptive edits, and stopped using the silly edit summary. Where I come from that's called a phenomenal improvement in behaviour compared to the SPUI from months back you describe above. So where the indication that he is a bad bad man who will never do any good? --CBD 18:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I rephrase my question. It's been over one month since he has contributed without getting blocked. How long do we put up with his nonsense before he becomes a 'positive' contributor again? semper fi — Moe 19:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Your framing assumes that blocks for 'squidward' edit summaries were valid. I don't believe they were. 'How long without being blocked' isn't much of a standard when blocks are placed for things which represent no real 'damage' or 'disruption' to Misplaced Pages at all. To my way of thinking, SPUI has made exactly ONE block-worthy edit in that time period... his fourth revert on the 'V' original research. --CBD 19:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The only reason the blocks for the squidward edit summaries may not have been valid is because he was never warned about it. After sternly warned, yes, he stopped. But does that excuse him from copying the well-known vandal edit-summary? If I suddenly started using those edit summaries and continued after a block (and yes SPUI did), would that not be disruption? semper fi — Moe 22:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The other concern is that he has chased many users away from Misplaced Pages (names can be provided on request) directly or indirectly because of his actions. And made the highways area an unpleasant place to work. Also, SPUI has not made any uncontroversial mainspace edits in over two months (uncontroversial excluding SQUIDWARD or the 3RR). Not that that necessarily mounts to anything however.... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And in the realm of the truly bizzare...its either a sockpuppet or a fanboy here. Though why be either, I haven't a clue. pschemp | talk 04:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Also Bushcarrot (talk · contribs). —Centrx→talk • 04:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Very well, then. Are we going to continue to argue or actually do something here? // Pilotguy (Cleared to land) 04:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Do we vote? Have a more formal discussion? There is no clear-cut answer here, unless we send this to ArbCom. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what the issue is here. It is really quite easy to not be disruptive. He has had more than 50 chances to do it over the course of a year and a half. —Centrx→talk • 04:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well then who will hit the block button if it is to be done? Discussing it and doing nothing else doesn't help. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who will block him, because someone like CBD will come along and unblock him. Look at his block log; just a series of blocks and unblocks. I'm not going to be the one to start a wheel-war with people who look at his attitude and say, "Eh, it's not THAT bad. Why, 50% of his contributions are completely uncontroversial! What are you all complaining about?" Until someone like Jimbo puts his foot down, SPUI will continue to act like he does, half of you will continue waste your time to undo his shenanigans and argue for his permablock, and the other half will waste their time arguing why he should stay and unblocking any errant blocks. Don't you think all this wasted time could be spent better elsewhere? --Kbdank71 20:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So what you're saying is...if someone's going to inappropriately wheel war...then we can't block appropriately. --InShaneee 20:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, what I'm saying is I'm not going to waste my time blocking SPUI just to see someone unblock him. You can wheel war over him until the cows come home if you think it'll do some good. --Kbdank71 21:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

If someone wheel wars, it should be dealt with. In the meantime, that shouldn't prevent us from making legitimate blocks. It's like saying, "Why bother writing articles, they'll just be vandalized." --InShaneee 21:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So our options at this point are to a) block or b) send this to RFC or ArbCom. Meanwhile, nothing is getting done. As I was involved in the ArbCom stuff it would be conflict of interest to block so in reality I can't. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said before, and will say again, to make the message clear... ban ban ban ban ban ban ban. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 00:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but we might as well take it back to ArbCom. It should not be "300 strikes and you're out", and he's been blocked enough times to make anyone realize that he isn't going to do much of anything that's actually constructive. I'm not 100% sure ArbCom would be able to solve the problem, because they've dealt with him before, and he doesn't seem to have any respect for their decisions. It could still be worth trying, since ArbCom could just decide to indefblock/ban him. An ArbCom block/ban would be less likely to result in a wheel war. --Coredesat 00:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this matter can be handled without involving ArbCom. The terms are simple: I think we are all agreed that his behavior needs to improve, that he needs to make a serious & sincere effort at playing by the rules; the disagreement appears to be whether he can be convinced to improve or that he is beyond all hope & we have no choice other than to ban him from Misplaced Pages. As constructive as he might be (I haven't followed his edits, but for the sake of argument let's say he is), if SPUI -- or any Wikipedian -- is being disruptive to the point that he has received multiple blocks yet no one cares enough to intervene & save him from a permanent ban, then the community has made its decision & clearly wants him gone. So is there anyone who is working with SPUI offline from Misplaced Pages with the aim of improving his behavior & avoid having him banned from this project & losing his constructive contributions? If there is, I hope that would be enough to convince the "Ban SPUI" faction to have some patience & give him one more -- even if it is only his last -- chance. If there is not, & no one is willing to volunteer to help SPUI from being banned, then it's hard not to conclude that the proper solution is a Community Ban. All it would take is for one person to volunteer to work with him to keep him; otherwise, silence is consent & it's clear, despite what some may say, everyone wants him gone. -- llywrch 01:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I am more than willing to assist SPUI in becoming a constructive editor here again as long as he doesn't continue with his extreme forms of silliness. As long as he is willing to be a positive contributor, we can always use another hand on Misplaced Pages. But this my only offer to help the guy, if he continues being disruptive, I'm not going to be as helpful the next go-around. semper fi — Moe 02:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

SPUI can be banned by any administrator from any area he disrupts. If he does not comply with the ban he may be blocked. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Highways#Probation. Any administrator may do this. Fred Bauder 03:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You bring up a good point. We still have the option of banning rather than blocking. Banning being "you can't edit this article anymore because you've disrupted it." --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that CBD's summary of the cause of the current situation is very apt. The 'highways' situation became extremely unpleasant -- SPUI was basically at one point being told that not only would he be sanctioned for not abiding by a non-consensus decision, but that he'd be sanctioned for pointing out that it was a non-consensus decision. (Admittedly he was pointing it out rather frequently, but when a bare majority is repeatedly mischaracterised as a "consensus", a certain feeling of frustration is somewhat understandable.) There's been lots of nonsense and silliness from SPUI before (I've been on the end of a small portion of it myself), but this seems to me to be different. This is sheer surmise and speculation, take it for what it's worth, but it appears to me more that he essentially quit the project over that issue, but due to on-going wikidiction and/or wishing to express residual resentment, isn't quite able to go "cold turkey", and so is making periodic forays back. I'm not especially hopeful this will end well, and in the circumstances, I doubt that "area bans" will be at all useful (since if I'm correct, it'll just force him to find other ways to vent, which he'll rise to the challenge of). I'd urge the community not to take any far-reaching steps just at the moment, but if he doesn't knock it on the head immediately, I'd be in favour of a "medium length" block (a week to a month or two, say) to stop him digging himself in yet deeper in the meantime. Alai 08:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• I would have thought mentorship would be a solution, in a way. --SunStar Net 11:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Motion to ban SPUI

I have made a motion to ban SPUI for a year at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#SPUI Fred Bauder 10:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I support this. If I had to "learn" to behave myself then so should he have. He's had his 1,000 chances and now should cool his heels for a bit. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 04:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have opposed this there, for what it's worth. SPUI can't be banned for a year by that arbitration committee ruling until he has been blocked justifiably under its probation restrictions five times. I count four, at least one of which I feel was unjustifiable. I also feel there is not consensus for a community ban; there is, from what I see, considerable clamor for one, but also some opposition. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 08:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, as long as SPUI watches it and contributes productively I have no problems with him around. Actions such as the Squidward edit summaries will result in an immediate block from me though. In short, as long as SPUI doesn't mess around, I welcome him here. If he wants to be disruptive, then we have to think about measures. Let's not jump the gun here -- Tawker 09:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've found that in most cases once SPUI is blocked once or twice about an issue he stops doing it. The sole exception was what he got an arbcom ruling about - edit warring about highway names (in other words, a genuine content difference, not the silly provocation of most of the other stuff).

We should also be cautious about baiting someone under probation and blocking him for things that if other editors did them would not be blockable offenses. I've on occasion noted a way of thought that goes, "SPUI is a troll, therefore ..." Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So in reality, we're back to where we started. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 19:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not prepared to ban SPUI for a year at this time. I still remain hopeful. If ArbCom so rules I'd be disappointed. ++Lar: t/c 00:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The concern is we've said that so many times, giving SPUI slack, and he then takes it and runs. If any of us had done all that SPUI did... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose until a suitable replacement is found. —freak(talk) 00:53, Nov. 12, 2006 (UTC)

Not an admin, but damn it would be disappointing to see SPUI go. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SchmuckyTheCat (talk • contribs) .

Oppose. SPUI, no doubt, deserves banning - but, since we don't do punitive, what he deserves is beside the point. I'm convinced that it is not in Misplaced Pages's interests to ban him, per this wisdom from an unlikely source.--Doc 01:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

See, it is things like that link which make me like her even though we disagree on alot of issues. :] Well said indeed. --CBD 10:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Flat out oppose per the reasoning of Bastique should have an RFC and I see no community concensus for banning and agree it is not in the communities interests to do so.--Dakota 06:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose as well. Per his userpage, "I used to edit a lot. Now I only edit when I see something that really needs to be fixed. Some say this makes me disruptive." He isn't that active anyways, so it's not really a problem. Khoikhoi 06:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons listed above. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support strongly. SPUI's behavior is not acceptable. As one opposing admin indicated, blocks/bans are not meant to be punitive, but preventive. SPUI's behavior disrupts Wikipeida; worse, he either doesn't realize it or doesn't care that it does, which means that we can expect periodic disruptions from him. --Nlu (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• And again, nothing happens. As I said a week ago, there are too many people willing to overlook too much. --Kbdank71 18:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd say at this point that we need some RFC or ArbCom to do anything. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Yah, overlooking the 'massive' problems caused by the word 'squidward' and a 3RR violation. Why... it could be the end of the wiki as we know it. :] --CBD 12:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Right, because I'm really concerned about "squidward". If that's all you think this issue is about, then you are indeed overlooking a lot. --Kbdank71 18:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
        • At this point, I disagree with the results, but I'm going to let this one go. If SPUI deserves blocking, he'll do something else. And then people won't be able to disagree with it. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. I know that this has been more or less resolved since Rschen said he's "going to let this one go", but the self-centered part of me wants to think that people care what I have to say, since I've been vehemently opposed to SPUI on several different fronts. However, I truly think that if there has ever been or will ever be a time to permablock SPUI, now is definitely not it. Every edit he's made since blanking his userpage and talk page (with the exception of the ducks in a pram, which doesn't matter since it's his own talk page) has been in good faith. The SQUIDWARD edit summaries on shunpiking proved he was a "silly git" as someone else said, but the edits themselves were removing original research. Had he used a productive edit summary as he did on V for Vendetta, it would have been more obvious that he wasn't actually committing page-blanking vandalism. His SQUIDWARD RfA votes -- while they did slightly reek of continuing to fail to accept the consensus of WP:SRNC -- expressed his honest opinion of what he honestly thought would benefit the Misplaced Pages community. The highway naming debate that sparked 99% of the SPUI-related controversy has been resolved, and now he's sitting in a corner doing nothing worth commenting at all. If we wanted to impose a permablock, the time to do it was when he was disrupting literally hundreds of highway pages, not when he's minding his own business. It didn't happen then, and it certainly shouldn't happen now. -- NORTH 20:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Promotion of Business

User:Mancation is using the definition of the word mancation to promote himself and his business.

Koavf (talk · contribs) blocked indefinitely

Koavf has managed to rack up eight distinct blocks for 3RR, and 2 more for other disruptive behavior(block log). Note also edits like this.. I just extended his latest 3RR block to idefinite, as I think the community's patience is likely exhausted by now. He has had many opportunities to mend his ways. Having recently returned from a week-long block, he started edit warring again almost immediately. His behavior is unmodified despite the volume of blocks he has received. Of course, I put this possibly-controversial action up for review. Dmcdevit·t 08:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no note on his User or User_talk page? - Francis Tyers · 19:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? He has lots of warnings on his Talk page. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about the lack of note on his talk page regarding his indefinite block. A note has subsequently been added. - Francis Tyers · 01:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much possibility of recovery here. While I'm sure he's a nice guy, I don't think he has the temperament for editing here. I'm going to endorse this action, though sadly. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hm, harsher than we usually are. But then perhaps we are usually too soft. Endorse with the proviso that we put a note on his talk page indicating that he will be considered for a 'last chance' if he indicates that he 'gets it' undertakes to behave.--Doc 01:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree that a long block of some sort is in order. Not sure if indefinite is needed, just yet (I'm not too familiar with the situation), but the long-term disruption and failure to learn from past transgressions is pretty worrisome. Luna Santin 01:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he deserves an indefinite block, but I think that some kind of length (maybe 3-6 month block) with the option of a "last chance" before indefinite would be appropriate. He has been a useful editor, and the disruption comes from edit warring rather than vandalism. - Francis Tyers · 01:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Justin is a nice user but w/ a temperament. It is this same temperament that leads him to edit warring non-stop. If you'd ask me i'd say i'd prefer a definite ban from editing Morocco/Western Sahara related articles where he got most of the blocks. -- Szvest 19:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Svest. - Francis Tyers · 22:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a very strict block. I have edited on the Western Sahara articles before and I think that Kovaf has been struggling with some users who only have the aim to put certain viewpoints on Misplaced Pages. I'm not convinced by his neutrality entirely either, but I think the articles could become very unbalanced and that we would lose a valued contributor if he were indefinately blocked.

A block of a much shorter duration should be enforced here - 1 month, 2 maximum. I definately don't think he should be blocked from editing Western Sahara/SADR aritcles (but might support a block from aritcles on Morocco). --Robdurbar 16:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don’t want to interfere in your discussion guys but Robdurbar’s remarks justifying Kovaf’s behavior as just a "a struggle with some users" oblige me to do so. I think this is simply unfair from an admin.
• There are reasons why Koavf has been blocked (no need to list them again) and this has nothing to do with any "other users". Trying to Justify his behaviour in this way is simply wrong.
• The unbalance of the topic is an other wrong argument. He had the chance to cooperate with all and he clearly did not. Now there is a real chance that the topics will be more balanced and the atmosphere among the editors more co-operative and peaceful. All he was doing is (mis-) using Misplaced Pages for a platform to fight for the independence of a disputed territory and discouraging others with his obsessive reverts.
• There are rules, and they apply for all, so remember which message you will give if you unblock this user; it's like telling everybody "ok, just continue with your edit-warring and reverts, you’ll always find a nice admin to defend and unblock you."

Kind regards - wikima 18:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User Koavf has been reverting and edit-warring on many articles, and especially on Western Sahara related. Normal when he declares in his user page "I try to particularly represent the interests of truth and the Sahrawis of Western Sahara (SADR).", and on Wikime that "I will do my darndest to free Western Sahara". His talk page and contributions show that he resorts to personal attacks, and has trouble issues with a large number of users on a wide range of articles. After coming form every block, he immediately started by reverting all the changes done in his absence, even the articles he was blocked for. Short period blocks seem to "only make him bitter" as he made it clear. Koavf has not shown any change after all the successive blocks. He misuses AWB for increasing edit counts at the price of creating confusion, although he was warned and blocked for it.

As to Robdurbar's comment, I think that Koavf has made the articles related to WS very unbalanced, and in his absence you are urged to watch if the "some users" commit the same mistakes as Koavf or are the articles becoming balanced by giving both views of the WS conflict.

An indefinite block, or at least (as Francis suggested) a 6-month block after which a "last chance" is given to him to show he changed, otherwise 3RR loses its purpose and becomes a short vacation from Misplaced Pages before one returns to resume reverting and edit-warring. --A Jalil 00:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to infer any bias from most users - including wikima - though I hope he would accept that he, like us all, has some sort of inherent bias. With there being so few contributors to Western Sahara pages, I don't think we can afford to lose Koavf. I appreciate this ban is over conduct, not content, but when banning we do need to consider what a user has contributed to Misplaced Pages. Equally, I agree, that koavd's contributions have been far from neutral but they have been in good faith. Can we agree to at least reduce this from an indefinate ban? --Robdurbar 09:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be a fairly even split so far between endorsing and not-endorsing, is 50% sufficient for an indef ban to be upheld? - Francis Tyers · 11:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've only had bad experiences with Koavf. When things haven't gone his way, he has tended to run off to an admin, which has backfired on him each time (example 1, example 2). Lifting the block would be a bad move, in my opinion, which I'm sure will be proven if it happens. Several of his past blocks were reduced in length, only for him to pick up where he left off, which shows he disregards other people's good faith towards him. - Dudesleeper 15:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a rather difficult question, as he's mostly editting in territory which is *very* prone to POV-pushing. I'm fairly certain he has done it on occasion, too, and he's certainly revert-warred, but an indefinite block seems a bit harsh... Apart from all this, someone neutral should take a good look at all the Western-Sahara-related articles, as almost all of them contain either a pro-independence or a pro-Morocco POV. —Nightstallion (?) 18:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Francis, many others and me have been doing just that. We had experienced a very lenghty and hot debate at Talk:Morocco recently and i am sorry to say that among around a dozen of participants, only Justin was the most tendious. The participants had reached a concensus but Justin kept arguing against that. This is what makes Justin's case a bit torn. On one side, we need to keep all the articles free of POV and on the other side, we need no tendious editing and edit warring.

However, as i am not for a permablock, i'd still suggest a ban from editing Morocco/WS related articles as his POV pushing has reached limits. Szvest 18:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As Fayssal said, I would also oppose a permanent block. Koavf is an obstinate user regarding matters relating to his personal views but he has shown willingness to follow dispute resolution procedures. I know this is not the point but Koavf truely believes he's doing the right thing most of the time. Regarding a topic ban or a revert parole, these matters would have to be decided by ArbCom. If anyone wants to take this to arbitration, I am more than happy to express my views on the issue. Personally, I feel a bit guilty as I was informally mediating on the WS/Morocco articles but eventually left these aside because time restrains. Koavf has been with us for long enough to deserve a proper arbitration process instead of a fast-track community ban. Regards, Asterion 18:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Well said Asterion. -- Szvest 18:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Those opposing a permanent block are doing it out of good faith and kindness rather than out of rational and reality. This is a very clear case of someone for whom 3RR means nothing, blocks mean nothing, and edit-warring is a style. He has proven it again and again and again. There is no hope at all that he will change. I am quite sure many users have been indef blocked for much less than Koavf's record, and if this case were to end in a no-indef ban, it will serve as an argument for warring-editors, and as a blatant failure to enforce Misplaced Pages's most basic rules.--A Jalil 21:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering you have been here for under 3 months, I find it hard to believe that you've seen enough of Justin to make that call. Furthermore you have edit warred from the opposite POV to him. It is in your interests for him to have an indefinite block. Hardly the right person to be commenting on this. - Francis Tyers · 18:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If three months is a short period, I have actually seen during it koavf racking up so many blocks, using aggressive language, and disregarding Misplaced Pages's most basic rules, I have seen him promising admins he will obey by the rules but did not hold his word. I have seen 3RR losing its meaning in his case. A bad example for newcomers, like me, Isn't it?. Moreover, you can "see" all one's history of talk and contribs, even if you've been for just one week. So, one's opinion is not weakened (nor strengthened) by how long he/she has been on Misplaced Pages. You can't help Koavf by trying to redirect attention from his unjustifiable abusive behavior to other users, it is an insult to the admins' intelligence. You (Francis) have been recently blocked for edit-warring. As to my editing on WS, Koavf has reverted me , and would revert you , and everyone who writes anything that does not go his way. Is it enough that I support the WS articles to be filtered from POV by neutral editors (like you), as has been suggested above?.--A Jalil 08:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Koavf is currently a problem editor, but not a vandal. I suggest a long block to give him a chance to mellow out, but not an indefinite block. —Michael Z. 2006-11-14 16:16 Z

I'd agree with that. He has put a lot of time into editing up until now, so I wouldn't want to see all that negated by an indefinite ban. A time-out would suffice, in which time he'll hopefully expand his horizons. - Dudesleeper 17:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• From what I can see now, the topic of Western Sahara for instance is like recovering in his absence, already. There is a sort of peace coming back and the atmosphere is likely to become cooperative and productive again.

• I would prefer to see more people join and also feel encouraged to stay longer, than only koavf “owning” the pages and pushing others away with his possessive way.

• His obsessive, always instant and systematic reverts and his extreme edit-warring discourage anyone who wants to do the tiniest change that does not fit his POV.

• He certainly edited a lot (may be sometimes too much), but all his edits and article creations are POV and propaganda and it takes others always a huge effort to overcome his edit-warring and reverts in order to balance.

• Misplaced Pages is not about quantity. Articles that are shorter, neutral, concise, let say encyclopaedic, have much more value than long stories that are nothing than a fight in favour of an ideological organisation and against a country that is seen as enemy of this organisation.

• This sort of behaviour clearly damages the topic areas in question and it damages Misplaced Pages as a whole.

• He had many chances but he just ignored all and he didn’t care about using one single of them.
• It’s time now to protect Misplaced Pages and these topics and for their sake I would plead for keeping the indefinite ban.

Thanks and kindest regards - wikima 20:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Try not to make it a personal vendetta against him. His misgivings are clear to those who care to look. The admins will act as they see appropriate. - Dudesleeper 00:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Koavf is currently a problem editor, but not a vandal" - I think this describes the situation best, thanks Mzajac. This is why I think an idefinate block is counter-productive and a long-but-not indefinate one could 'solve' the problem. Of course, any user - myself included -who is arguing for a long-but-not-indefinate would be happy to endorse a full block if his bevahiour did not improve upon return. --Robdurbar 11:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough to me. But i'd prefer that we agree on what problems we are refering to when we say a "problem editor". Are there many problems? Is there a particular one? I say this because i know for some of us or even for Justin, this may be debatable and could lead us to the same situation if he is back. Could we be more concise? Szvest ····> 13:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Dude, nothing personal, and I am most serious about it.
• Rob, of course we are talking about a problematic editor and not a case of vandalism.
• Koavf had already received the warning of an indef ban when he was blocked for a week and he ignored it.

Rgds - wikima 20:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above. The indefinite block should remain permanent. No amount of reasoning or disciplinary action has made Koavf alter his behavior, even if some of his contributions are worthy. BGC 12:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Tobias Conradi again

See User_talk:Tobias_Conradi#Blocked II ... Tobias Conradi (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has now been put on notice that his next ban may well be indefinite. There is a lot of history here, this user has been discussed here many times in the past. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please supplement the claims with supporting page diffs and links to the archive files. Durova 23:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that I'm not claiming anything. If Redvers (the blocking admin) doesn't get a chance to give more information here, I'll see what I can do to help out though. As you know it's fairly non trivial to find multiple incidents in these archives. Tobias's block log speaks volumes though. ++Lar: t/c 00:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This guy equates admins he doesn't like with people who commit "rape, violence, robery, murder, mobbing". Should have been blocked a long time ago... his behavior seems simply awful. --W.marsh 01:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Essentially, anytime an admin calls him on his incivility, tells him not to attack folks, or deletes an article he feels he owns, the admin is immediately accused of abuse. He operates at a hair-trigger, ready and willing to strike. He's labeled me as one of the abusive admins because I deleted an article he had created that met WP:CSD A1. He has made comments to the effect that he should be above the policies or they should be modified to his needs because of the number of edits he's made (which apparently number above 10k). I'd really like to find some way to get him onto the right side of the tracks because he's a very productive editor, but I've had poor results trying to work him through his admin issues. A heads up, CBDunkerson (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) has sided with Tobias in the past when he was being abusive, so anyone who tracks CBD's unique admin community interactions may wish to monitor this as well. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 02:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

THere's certainly a history of not being able to tolerate a difference of opinion: , , --Merbabu 03:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He's passive aggressive and has a persecution complex. He complains about abuse, but refuses to police his own behavior (when he moves lots of pages for example, he claims it's not his responsibility to clean up double redirects - it's the responsibility of the person complaining to him about the moves). He needs to be heartily beaten with a clue stick. Maybe a permablock with an out that says "If you apologize for every troll you've made, you can come back with a clean slate" would work, but I very much doubt he could swallow his faux pride. --Golbez 10:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

With this diff he basically confirmed everything I said. The last few days, he's ceased being a worthwhile contributor, he spends all of his time now whining. --Golbez 11:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Various incivil and inaccurate statements above aside... the matter at hand: Tobias Conradi got into some content disputes with Evertype. Both were incivil and edit warring. Various people warned both of them about this. Tobias Conradi removed one of those warnings from his talk page and Nandesuka restored it. He removed it again, she restored it again, et cetera... then she protected his talk page. He called this abusive and Naconkantari blocked him for that as WP:NPA.

Frankly... edit warring to keep warnings on someone's talk page is harassment. I've held that position for a long time and I'm not alone in it. Protecting a page you have been involved in editing is one of the few things admins are specifically told not to do. Protecting user talk pages specifically is generally discouraged as it cuts off communication and thus is only supposed to be used in the most extreme cases of vandalism / profanity / releasing personal info / et cetera. Thus, protecting a user talk page you have been edit warring on to enforce display of a message you know the user doesn't want to have there is, at best, a 'very bad idea' <tm>. Tobias Conradi calling it 'abusive' was certainly incivil, but within the realm of semantically feasible descriptions. Blocking him for a week over that seems to me excessive.

Put Tobias Conradi in opposition with any other user who also trends towards being obstinate and incivil in disagreement and you have a problem. That's a valid issue which needs to be addressed, if possible. The fact that some of those other users are admins is also rather a problem, and vilifying Tobias for complaining (vociferously) about improprieties doesn't make them any less improper. --CBD 12:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the NPA block was related to this which although not the diff listed in the block log was the statement which was visible on the users page at the time the block was placed. --pgk 13:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that'd fit the bill. I'd looked at the diff in the block summary, but it does seem likely Naconkantari meant the entire string and just didn't notice that part of it was added in the subsequent edit you linked. --CBD 15:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Correction to my summary above - Tobias did not actually remove the warning again after Nandesuka restored it. What he did was move it up on the page to a section with another warning he had been told to keep displayed. Thus the 'lie' he referred to was Nandesuka's statement that she was protecting the page because he had deleted the text again... he hadn't. Though he now acknowledges that she could have just missed the relocation (which seems likely). --CBD 22:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Tobias has a talent for making enemies on Misplaced Pages; if you went back though his edit history I'm sure you'd find many many examples. This is a comment left on my talk page after an episode I (and a number of other editors) had with Tobias (MichaelJLowe 13:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

I can't think of another user who has not yet been banned who is so consistently disruptive to both community and project. I dislike witchhunts but when and if you decide to file on this user, please ask for my help. John Reid 07:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed community ban for Tobias Conradi

I think that this user's penchant for clearly unreasonable behavior and wikilawyering make a community ban a reasonable option. Just as the latest example, he lists pgk's response to his unblock request as an example of "admin abuse." As an experiment, when dealing with his latest 3RR violation, I deliberately did not block him, but approached him informing him of the violation, and asking him to change his editing pattern. His response was to characterize it as a "threat", immediately remove the warning (and I disagree with CBD about this being acceptable), and add me to his List Of Enemies. Someone who can't distinguish between "civil interaction and disagreement" and "abuse" is not going to be able to participate meaningfully in an arbitration case. I'd therefore like to propose a community ban in this case. Thoughts? Nandesuka 14:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

He clearly has no respect for the rules or the other users here, and has had far too many opportunities to change his ways. Support. --InShaneee 16:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never interacted w/ Tobias but after checking all the above i still see that it would be very appropriate to place them on probation. An indefinite block would be harsh to an established editor who joined wikipedia in 2003 (be them a pain in the ass or an angel). -- Szvest 16:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm torn on this. On one hand, he often makes useful edits and he's very productive. On the other hand, we're all volunteers here and quite frankly, he's shitting all over a bunch of people who really don't have to be here, and that's just poor chess. This is not a job, and we're not paid to put up with abuse. As he has shown no interest in speaking civilly with people he disagrees with and responds to just about everything that isn't glowing praise with baseless accusations, I think an RfC is entirely appropriate, and perhaps a ban is a proper possible consequence of the RfC. AN/I probably isn't the right venue for determining this editor's future, though. I don't really have the time right now to put together a representative case, but I'd be willing to assist. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Quite a coincidence on the unblock request thing, given it was posted about an hour before my comment above and about a month after the incident. I can't say any run in's I've had with this user particularly stand out in my mind. Looking a few diffs beyond that one I see this which seems to back up some of the sentiments above, agreeing with a blocking admin when it's against his view point is somehow "mobbing". He was clearly entitled to query my reasoning behing denying the unblock later something which my talk page clearly shows he hasn't (Though given there is a subjective nature to disruption It's also more than possible he still wouldn't be happy with the response, nor would I perceive an endless debate to be useful). Being frustrated at a denied unblock is understandable, but to my mind maintaining such lists a month after the event without seeking any input seems pretty unhealthy and certainly seems to require some action, if this can be getting to (and resolving) the root cause or an outright ban is debatable, though some of the comments above seem to suggest the former is unlikely to be attainable. --pgk 17:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't investigated this situation at all, but by coincidence, on MfD right now is a page in this editor's userspace compiling some of his more unpleasant interactions with admins. He seems to have compiled it to assist him in some contemplated (but never pursued) RfC or whatever, but as an outsider it primarily reflects the difficulty of dealing with this user. See WP:MfD#User:Tobias_Conradi.2F2006_summer_admin_incidents.

Please note that I'm posting this link because it might be relevant for someone following up on this thread. I hesitated before doing so because it might be viewed as publicizing some of the personal attacks made by this user. If this is a concern to any of the admins named on the page, please feel free to revert this edit. Newyorkbrad 17:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I did indeed make the comment cited above. I can't recall the ugly details of my interaction with Mr. Conradi but I can't get the taste out of my mouth, either. I would really prefer not to dredge up what went on between us but I will do so if it will help put a lid on this.

It is not clear to me that a community ban will be effective, however. This editor has all the makings of somebody who will not stay gone. If we throw him out hot, I fear he will be back -- and back and back and back. Diplomacy is called for but has already been attempted and has failed. I will make another effort but really, I don't know what else to do. John Reid ° 17:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Instead of a ban, this would make a good case for a probation period John. -- Szvest 17:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If probation were attempted, I'd suggest monitoring closely. I suspect, based on past interactions with him, that he would categorize the probation as an attack of some sort and as more evidence of cabalism. A user operating under those assumptions would likely disregard it, go out in a blaze of glory, or simply switch to a new account. The only way I could see any administrative intervention working with this user is if CBDunkerson (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) was the implementer. He is the only admin Tobias seems to interact civilly with, though I suspect this is because of CBD's historical enablement of Tobias's indiscretions. This brings with it its own set of challenges, of course, but should be considered. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course they would be monitored especially that their case concerns a dozen of admins. I would also support CBDunkerson to be their mentor though not responsible of their acts. -- Szvest 18:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

How about a mentorship, in the context of a probation, then? I honestly don't think CBD is the right person though, I'd pick someone (on Tobias's enemies list, frankly) that has a widely held reputation as reasonable but firm, and who doesn't have the reputation of being a coddler, and put it to Tobias "either you let this person mentor you, and take their input and advice on board, nicely, and without arguing, or... you're gone...". ++Lar: t/c 21:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I have "a widely held reputation as reasonable but firm" (some people seem to think I'm block happy and others think I'm a "softie") but ff at least one other admin is willing to do it with me, I'd be willing give it a try. JoshuaZ 21:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I am admittedly a 'softie' in that I think alot of blocks do more harm than good. I wouldn't object to some reasonable person trying to mentor him, but I definitely think it ought not to be one of the admins who has engaged in personal attacks or harassment against him. Chairboy's insinuations about 'enabling' abuse by Tobias are a curious way of describing my objections to the abusive treatment he has been given. I've been 'mentoring' Tobias to avoid incivility consistently, but it is difficult when various users falsely accuse him of vandalism, say he knows nothing, et cetera... and then he gets blocked for any incivility in return. Theoretically, I could block the other people violating policy... but as we've already established I'm not a big fan of blocks unless they are really needed. --CBD 22:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

See, CBD, I think it specifically OUGHT to be one of the people on his list. If he can't learn to get along with people he misjudged, he's just not going to make it here. Pick whoever on that list is considered the most reasonable. ++Lar: t/c 22:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Which admins, exactly, have been "harassing" Tobias? That's a serious accusation, and one that shouldn't be bandied about just for laughs. Nandesuka 00:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

CBD, from an outside perspective, you do appear to be enabling Tobias's poor conduct. I appreciate that you've attempted to mentor Tobias, but it appears that it's failed. I completely agree with Lar's statement above. If Tobias can't get along with someone that he disagrees with, Misplaced Pages isn't the place for him. SuperMachine 01:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, yeah. Seriously folks, the idea that the proper person to mentor Tobias Conradi is one of those who has called him "a ridiculous petulant child", "almost pathological", "utterly ignorant", et cetera seems like a less than feasible plan. Oughtn't his mentor on civility be someone who can abide by it themself? If not being able to get along with people who violate Misplaced Pages's behavioural standards is a bannable offense then half the admin-corps would have to go. :] As to politely suggesting that Tobias be civil "not working"... I assure you that it works considerably better than the alternative, and is not itself a policy violation. --CBD 02:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Only a person previously uninvolved could be a mentor in the case. Neither CBD nor any of the admins who have blocked him should do it. Anyone who has previously tangled or wrangled or enabled or whatever him already has an opinion, and he of them. A completely neutral party should be found. pschemp | talk 03:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Assuming such could be found, sure. But I still think someone on his list (that we agree isn't really deserving of being there) is a good choice. For instance I don't think I ever used "a ridiculous petulant child", "almost pathological", "utterly ignorant" in my dealings, and, frankly, I don't buy the incivility charge that CBD is so fast to play loose with when he characterises EVERYONE on that list... my point being that there are those on there who clearly don't belong in any such category. ++Lar: t/c 03:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I am not an administrator, I would be happy to act as a mentor in this case. KazakhPol 04:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know that there are any uninvolved parties anymore. The joke here is that if we took this to ArbCom, maybe all of the arbitrators would have to recuse. I don't know.

I've certainly had my doubts about this editor but I'm working with him now. Give us a chance. John Reid ° 09:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha, ha - yes I saw that. Nice effort. It seems to have calmed down. "I will think about it" --Merbabu 09:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine now that eveybody agrees about Toabias having a mentor. But does it matter who this mentor would be? IMHO, it doesn't because being soft or tough, a mentor is a counselor. I just don't think that this person should be on the list of Tobias' adversaries. The important is that the mentor should be trusted on his voluntary job. True, we don't have to ask Tobias for his view about this because of the circumnstances but we should be neutral (let's remind ourselves that our concern is neutrality). Nothing more, nothing less. I suggest then to go further and settle this issue for now. Szvest 10:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does matter who it is. It should be neither anyone on his enemy list or CBD (or anyone involved in prior disputes, on either side.) As long as its a previously uninvolved person (doesn't matter if they are an admin or not), that's fine. pschemp | talk 15:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I meant just the same pschemp. The mentor has to be a neutral party (i.e. someone who never interacted w/ him maybe?) -- Szvest 16:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully we still have a few uninvolved's left... this time. But I say let John Reid give it a try, and John, a) thanks for taking it on and b) don't hesitate to holler for help if you need it. ... best of luck! ++Lar: t/c 22:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Tobias Conradi coolth

Thanks Lar. Better to be lucky than good. Tobias is currently taking a short break. I don't think that makes me his mentor but I do think he needs a friend. I don't know if he accepts me in that role either but for argument's sake, let's say I am that friend.

So, I'm going to ask, very politely and with no grounds at all, that in the course of the next few weeks if you should question something Tobias has done, please bring it to me first, if at all possible. Feel free to email me if you like, though I check my talk more often. I certainly can't be responsible for any other human being, bar possibly my wife and daughter; but I do take on the responsibility for myself of hearing complaints and seeing what little I can do to address them. We are not going to throw away this editor because one of his edges is a bit ragged. Let's be sure we've exhausted all possible remedies before we put him down the chute.

I have promised Tobias that he can work to curb abusive admins when he manages to regain our community's respect. This does presuppose there are abusive admins and I think nobody doubts this is true. It does not presuppose that any particular involved admin has been abusive to Tobias; I don't know and don't care. I will do all I can to steer him onto the now. If someone takes the opportunity to kick him when he's down, I will be concerned.

I can't tell anyone to do anything but I do suggest that it may not be helpful to land too much conflicting advice on his talk page. I urge you all to address your concerns directly to me; I assure you they will get top priority and prompt attention. Thank you. John Reid ° 18:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"if you should question something Tobias has done, please bring it to me first, if at all possible"... that's basic mentorship process... everyone should indeed do just that, until and unless it's clear that the mentorship failed. (whether we formally call it that or not is irrelevant). Give John the space he needs to try. ++Lar: t/c 19:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Based on his past, I suspect he may be gaming us right now, but I hope that's not the case. I'm one of the maaaaaaany admins he has accused of abuse, and while I heartedly hope he can be recovered, I have a certain amount of skepticism as to his good faith status. He may have more than one 'rough edge', and I hope the perception has not been set that we are trying to 'throw him away', but care needs to be given to keep him from chasing users away and becoming a time sink. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for block

Please consider blocking SSS108 (talk · contribs) for repeated disruption related to Sathya Sai Baba. User began editwar by disputing references to Salon.Com in article, which led to a warning from user:Jossi (admin). User:SSS108 has continued to remove disputed references without gaining consensus among editors, leading to an RFA on the subject. Even after comment was obtained by ArbCom member (Fred Bauder), User:SSS108 refused to accept ArbCom decision on superficial grounds to the annoyance of several editors and admins involved in this dispute, for violating WP:POINT and WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND.
User:SSS108 has been causing great disruption at Talk:Salon.Com by repeating invalid arguments and continually misrepresenting arguments of other editors, leading to great frustration and annoyance in a gross violation of WP:POINT. User has also been accused of partiality and bias in relation to Sathya Sai Baba, as article was subject of previous ArbCom dispute where User declared himself as an "advocate" of article's subject. User has also been observed to be involved in long and tedious disputes of Misplaced Pages policies in support of article's subject, removing controversial material on superficial grounds. User continues to repeat invalid arguments and disrupt. Request is made for 48-hour block or longer to allow for a cool-off period. -- Ekantik 05:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I came into the dispute only a few days ago as an uninvolved admin trying to sort things out. Since becoming involved my impression closely matches the above. This seems to meet the new guidelines on tendentious editing. A block might be in order. JoshuaZ 04:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

User is continuing to disrupt, violating WP:3RR and WP:DE thus forcing another editwar that has brought about a third warning from an administrator. User is a repeat offender and has been blocked previously for disruptive activity on the same article. User is a single-purpose account as User's userpage displays clear partisan bias, bringing a potential conflict of interest in editing said article. Perhaps temporary block to allow cool-off for user should be enforced now? - Ekantik 01:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as no one is going to see this section way up on the page, I would suggest reporting to WP:AIV, pointing to this section. I'm not sure if it's standard procedure, but if user needs to get blocked, it needs to be done. That not working, try WP:PAIN and WP:AN/3RR. Patstuart 01:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is complicated by Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba. I will have a look at it. Guy (Help!) 20:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, what we have here is a heated but legitimate difference of opinion between two editors in good standing. It's been to ArbCom but the disputed text is not really covered by that ruling (it's too content-specific). What it needs, more than anything else, is more eyes. I can't really pitch in because I have a pretty strong bias against the subject, plus I always tend to make things worse these days, so if any experienced pourers of oil on troubled waters want to take a look I think it will be appreciated by all concerned. It's certainly not straightforward. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Two users to banned

I've checked at the history of edits of North Korea and spotted in October two inappropriate users called User:DEATH TO ALL DIRTY FUCKING GOOK SCUM!!!!! & User:I FUCKING HATE GOOKS - PLEASE KILL THEM ALL!!!!! which are possible suckpuppets of User:207.200.116.10 due to the same style of vandalism they are not banned or notified for inappropriate usernames. Can we banned them? Thanks!--JForget 00:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Both blocked on October 11. -- SCZenz 00:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Removal of my comments from the village pump

I need help on this. I don't understand what I did wrong. User:Charlesknight removed my comments on the policy section of the village pump. I was trying to make a point that either an article that violated policy should be deleted or policy should be rewritten to reflect actual practice. Mr Spunky Toffee 01:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see where you have discussed this with the User in question before coming here. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

He removed your comments because they looked to be vote soliciting at the pump. Direct solicitation, while I don't know of a policy against it, is often frowned upon. -Patstuart 07:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:SPAM#Canvassing. Daniel.Bryant 07:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

em... I haven't removed any comments... --Charlesknight 09:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like I'm the actual culprit, as Charles points out above. I removed the section because it was primarily a solicitation for an AfD vote, and not a policy discussion at all, and thus irrelevant to the policy village pump page. Per Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines, "Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." Daniel Bryant's link above is also relevant. -- SCZenz 09:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

In WIki terms, what is vote soliciting? For example, were I to go to a project talk page and tell them that a particular article under their banner was being nominated for deletion, and made a case against it being removed, would that be soliciting? perfectblue 11:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

An Article for Deletion

Neem Karoli Baba was given an AfD tag by a very new editor (18th edit). The tag was removed by another editor, and then replaced by the tagger. This appears to be an abuse of the deletion process, since the subject has several books written about him, and is extremely well known in the yoga community in the U.S. and in India. Can an admin speedy keep this? It seems that just having the tag stay on the article longer than neccessary is inappropriate. See Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Neem_Karoli_Baba Thanks, ॐ Priyanath 18:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Just keep the tag and go vote at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Neem Karoli Baba. W/ a few speedy keep votes it would be archived and speedy kept by an admin and then back to work as usual again. The thing is that we can't speedy keep it after a couple of minutes especially when the nominator got a valid concern. -- Szvest 18:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - there are now five speedy keeps, two keeps, and no 'deletes'. Others also feel that this is a bad faith nomination. I'll be patient.... ॐ Priyanath 19:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Out of interst, if a deletion tag is added as pure vandalism (for example a "pure vandalism" tag being added to an article that clearly isn't pure vandalism), is it OK to simply revert the page as you would do if the page had been vandalised with abusive language etc, or does it have to go through the normal consenus proccess? perfectblue 11:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• I think under the rules you're supposed to let the AfD run its course no matter what, but if someone put an AfD tag on an unquestionably notable article like George W. Bush or Japan or Pope Benedict XVI or Earth that would seem to me to be a perfect example of when to apply WP:IAR. Demiurge 12:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That seems to be be two different things - if a Speedy tag is added and it's nonsense, then as long as you are not the author of the article, then I'd say remove. However if it goes to AFD, then I'd like the community speak (if even it's a speedy keep) - mainly because it then provides an AFD to point to when dealing with POV-pushers and the like. --Charlesknight 11:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's be more specific. Earlier, I went to the page Misplaced Pages:Citation templates and found that user IP 208.108.100.94 placed the following tags on it

{{Vandalism}} and {{content}} 

. I determined that the edit was pure vandalism and deleted the tags, leaving a message in the discussion page to explain why I had deleted the tags rather than left them up to the comunity. I'm just checking (all be it after the fact) that I did the right thing (in case I run across something similar again).

That IP's edit history shows that it has made a lot of nonsence edits, and has also placed vandalism or similar tags on a couple of user pages and made a couple of nonsence edits to templates too.

perfectblue 13:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Abuse of tags - Bad-faith placing of {{afd}} or speedy-deletion tags on articles that do not meet such criteria" is mentioned on WP:VAND so it looks like the rules do cover this after all and there's no need for WP:IAR. Demiurge 13:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another celebrity username

User:MelanieSmith is vandalizing Melanie Smith. Can someone do whatever is appropriate here? (block, or WP:AGF and confirm that this user is not the melanie smith.) --nkayesmith 04:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Should there be a notice on this user's page saying that this user is not the Melanie Smith of Melanie Smith? Or not? --nkayesmith 06:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This person appears to be genuinely confused, I think the recent note posted on their talk page ought to be sufficient. Since Smith is the most common family name in the United States (according to us ;-)) I don't think a username block is warranted, and continue to assume good faith until there is reason to do otherwise. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:U#Inappropriate_usernames specifically includes "Names of well-known living or recently deceased people". As such, I think this should be a block, with permission to change to another name if she's so inclined, or permission to keep it if she's willing to verify her identity. -Hit bull, win steak 14:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I was called the fifth Beatle, baby. Bring back the Midnight Special!Billy Preston 22:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the Melanie Smith Melanie is notable enough to invoke the well-known real person clause, but the MelanieSmith (talk · contribs) user is sure being disruptive, whoever they are. Georgewilliamherbert 00:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Miltopia

Miltopia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an ED trolling account...editor has been stalking my edits and making comments for sometime now. On his fifth edit, in response to a comment left by User:Guinnog on User talk:Alexjohnc3 regarding that I didn't need to hear anymore about encyclopedia dramatica, Miltopia responds, "Yeah, it'll just make him go apeshit again.". Followed that up here, "Serious business" is a popular theme on encyclopedia dramatica. Let's not be going around allowing wikistalking to go unpunished. This editor showed up, out of the blue on an article I have been working on at Dysgenics , then soon comes to an article I just got through creating and well, look at the other stuff, like , claims he is trying to avoid me, completely out of the blue comment here, , , . I blocked this editor indefinitely and for good reasons. My block was overturned by User:Gentgeen without one word beforehand to me asking why I did the block. I can understand a shortening of the block, but when admins are going around wheel warring with each other over whether it is sound to block an obvious trolling account, then this place is going down the tubes! Stop reverting each others actions! At least have the assumption of good faith that, just maybe, it would be both courteous and professional, to inquire why an admin did something. See: --MONGO 10:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Along the same lines of what I mentioned at User talk:Miltopia, I for one am not yet convinced that the user should be summarily and indefinitely blocked, essentially without review, because the same person is victim, judge, and executioner. I do apologize for having unblocked without first discussing it with you, MONGO; if it's any consolation, there was a lengthy discussion on IRC involving a number of people, and a very speedy request for checkuser was put through to help look into matters. I am not yet convinced that this user is a simple, blatant troll, and so more than anything, I just want a few more eyes to look at this. If consensus is that I should not have unblocked, or if this user continues to do anything even resembling stalking MONGO, I'll happily apologize and recant. Luna Santin 10:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You didn't rollback my block. Folks around here need to look at the diffs. He's never encountered User:Konstable before, but is now recommending desysopping over at arbcom....?--MONGO 10:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

His current userpage is linking all junk that goes to the Misplaced Pages:Sandbox onto his userpage due to his misuse of the template .--MONGO 11:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This is yet another reason why admin business should be done on-Wiki, rather than on IRC. -Hit bull, win steak 14:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The account looks quite fishy to me — not at all like a genuine newbie. He registered in July and made one edit, but the account really came to life on 30 October. So, for the purpose of Misplaced Pages experience, it's two weeks old. Yet he's taking part in deletion reviews, AfDs, and even an arbitration case that he is not personally involved in — and is doing so with extraordinary confidence. Complaining about being stalked while following his alleged "stalker" around and showing up on articles he has edited does not add to his credibility. Also, his edit to his own talk page on 7 November seems to be an simply a way of "getting round" the prohibition on linking to a website that attacks Wikipedians. AnnH ♫ 13:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just come across this user while on speedy deletion patrol, and I'm amazed by the amount of flak he/she's getting just because he happens to edit a website critical of wikipedia. Mongo, although I've often (quite rightly) been criticised for biting, I'm astounded by the way you're treating this, and other, users. Looking at the diffs you provide, I see you've made a threat of blocking a user who tried to defend him, just because he linked to the "don't be a dick" Meta page? You've then been incredibly rude to both Gentgeen and Luna when they didn't agree with your arbitrary block. I'm sorry, but although Miltopia does look slightly fishy, your actions are blatantly agressive. yandman 13:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support and I'll remember it.--MONGO 14:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And now you're threatening me? However much your page on ED annoys you, you really shouldn't let it cloud your judgement. yandman 14:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not threaten you. I don't care about what some little children write about MONGO on that other website...they can write whatever their little adolescent minds desire. What I do care about is when an one of them comes here to stalk my edits and activities for the sake of harassment. Get a clue.--MONGO 14:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Civility --CBD 12:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I assume the user has been informed that his unblock is conditional on active attempts to avoid MONGO at all costs, correct? JBKramer 14:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge...Admins shouldn't be reverting other admin actions on a whim...Geenteen didn't bother to say a word to me until after he did the unblock. It rarely happens to me, but I am sick and tired of watching admins going around reverting other admin actions.--MONGO 14:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That seems a common sense condition, and I've just now notified Miltopia of it. Being a common sense condition, I don't think it quite applies indefinitely -- should they happen to run into each other a month or two from now, say, and play nice with each other, I don't really think there's a problem. But over the next few days, especially, the more distance between them, probably the better. Luna Santin 15:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Note

Not gonna get into this, 'taint my style, but I'm not at all a wiki newbie. Recent changes are kinda my thing. And I'm familiar with Misplaced Pages, it comes up at ED. Plus a friend of mine got banned :-( Anyway, my edits aren't problematic so I won't be sticking around this thread, y'all can choose to calm down now if you wish, but if anyone has any specific questions they can go to my talk page. Sayonara, Miltopia 14:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Should we treat this as an acknoledgement that you understand your unblock is conditional on your active attempts to avoid MNOGO? JBKramer 14:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If he resumes what he was last up to when he started messing around, I'll block him again...it's that simple. The trolls can do whatever they want on that childrens website, but I won't put up with it here for one minute.--MONGO 14:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with MONGO that admins shouldn't undo the actions of other admins without the courtesy of letting them know on their Talk pages, and, ideally, asking if it's okay first. If they don't get permission, and still feel they need to undo the action, then go ahead, though warily, but please let the original admin know. I'm thinking about writing this up as part of Misplaced Pages:Wheel warring. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyright issue

Welcome to the Hellmouth (Buffy episode) is an article presently on WP:DRV. About eight months ago, it had a few paragraphs added which were a copyvio. Hence, the article was recently deleted. I've undeleted all revisions prior to the insertion of this copyvio. While the article is now back, the editors have lost eight months of work on it, most of which was unrelated to the copyvio. Given the GFDL, is there a better way of handling this? (Radiant) 15:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

One very tedious method would be to take each diff in turn (not counting reverted edits as they don't contribute to the final state of the article), edit out each one, and use it to reconstruct the entire edit history minus copyvio on the talk page, starting with the most recent revision and a history on the talk page (which is permitted by GFDL). If there were a lot of revisions it would be a pain to do by hand, though. --ais523 15:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• 82 edits total. I don't think I'll be doing that by hand. (Radiant) 16:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

  How much was the copyvio section edited? If it kept consistent wording, a simple solution would be to use Special:Export to dump the history, find-and-replace to remove the copyvio, then to place the copyvioless history on a Talk subpage. --ais523 16:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Resolved now. I've dumped the history on the talk page, and compiled a new version incorporating all edits except the copyvio. (Radiant) 10:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Disruptive and inconsistent editing - Alec - U.K.

Alec - U.K. (talk · contribs) has a history of making confusing changes to articles. In many cases his edits appears to be totally correct, but in other cases changes are made that disrupt or distort articles. He has strong POV's regarding certain issues like the word disease that are inserted into changes. The result is that many articles are left in a state of uncertainty, I am often suspicous that he has made changes that are incorrect, but unless it's obviously wrong, I have no grounds to revert.

There are continuous problems with overlinking unimportant words, creating red links for no reason, creating red links because of spelling errors, linking to DAB pages, linking to the wrong article, etc. Also changes to train station routes that left trains going nowhere and edits that appears to hve no validity. Several UK editors have had to spend time reconstructing articles as a result. About 300 articles have been changed by him, some (as I stated above) without problems, but other really require review to ensure their validity.

I was about to create a report a week ago, but his editing appeared to have stopped. However, it is now evident he is also editing as 87.194.35.230 (talk · contribs) and has been using both accounts for some time. --ArmadilloFromHell 23:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this user needs formal sanctioning/warnings/monitoring. See User_talk:Alec_-_U.K. for a truly awful discussion page full of unheeded warnings. This uncivil disruption to User:Quotes userpage who then notified Alec-UK of this as vandalism. Further example is this nonsense move of Genetic disorder to Race related disabilities as "The fraise, "Genetic disorder" is very very offencive" - which clearly completely misses the distinction of genetic abnormalities (which can occur in any person) from racial genetic tendencies (i.e. specific concentration of genes in certain racial groups).

There are many edits which are uncivil or hard to identify what Alec is trying to achieve, eg this posting to Zisa which is surely just churlish uncivil aggressively quizzing of an editor now about the Asthma stub article they created in March 2002 and which has long since been expanded.

I would agree that User:87.194.35.230 has acted to deliberately disrupt and confuse the asthma article, see this sequence of edits, and this disruption to bronchitis, and trolling with this piece of nonsense to ArmadilloFromHell.

These further edits to asthma article follow on from what I eventually concluded was trolling and pedantic arguing on the asthma talk pages following some very idiosyncratic tagging to split the asthma article - see Talk:Asthma#.22Disease.22 and Talk:Asthma#Split.

If truly User:87.194.35.230 is a sockpuppet for Alec - U.K. to continue disruption to to the same selective group of articles (very likely given both edited in similar disruptive manner to Asthma & Bronchitis topics as well as Tulse Hill and other Dulwich related topics) then, given the failure of Alec to collaboratively engage with numerous editors, I would urge that an admin take firm action. David Ruben 02:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

A great number of this users edits (from both accounts) have been reverted by a wide range of editors. There have been numerous attempts to reason him but there continues to be systematic disruptive and non-useful editing. Polite warnings have also been unheeded. MRSC • Talk 20:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above statements. Unusual articles created, bizarre moves and continued amends against consesus and a refusal to discuss amendments or respond to notes & agressive comments left on long unused IP adress users all, to my mind, point to deliberately disruptive editing. Regan123 23:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(Sixty Six (talk · contribs)/66.90.151.114 (talk · contribs)) - enough is enough.

Hello. Since the 11th of October 2006 a user generally just referred to as "66", or "Sixty Six" has been generally stalking me, insulting me, trolling me, being disruptive, being rude, etcetera, primarily I had put up with this as it was just directed towards me and it generally did not bother me because I believed he might eventually "convert" to a good Wikipedian.

Generally he has been disruptive blanking warnings people have given him to him on his talk page and leaving rude remarks. (and lots more.. on his IP) and on his account (tentatively named: User:Sixty Six): he then proceeded to move his talk page out of the User talk: name space to : Archived Crapola

He has generally been rude to me and generally harassing me (and recently (increasingly) rude to others)

He has the notion that I am a "Nazi"

66 has even devoted lots of room on his user page stating that I'm a Nazi, a "g00ber"

I could present lots more diffs and more rudeness etcetera but frankly I am to tired. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 23:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Legal threats and incivility on this user's talk page, including threats to take legal action and/or seek newspaper publicity based on the fact that some of our administrators (or editors the user believes are administrators) are minors, require immediate attention. Newyorkbrad 01:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In defense of "66", I fail to see where he has "threatened to take legal action". He has mentioned that such a possibility exists, but mentioning said does not imply threat anymore than telling someone they have cancer implies that the cancer exists because they created the affliction. Also, I've noted that he's attempted to settled the differences via an e-mail dialog, as he notes on his Talk Page, but so far "Matthew" has refused to participate.

Note also that while I'm not really wanting to get myself into a war with "Matthew", I will however submit that he does possess an excessive number of complaints about the severity of his editing on his own Talk Page. This should be taken into consideration regardless of whether or not the complaints against "66" are valid. I submit that it's highly arguable that "Matthew" has brought this derision upon himself, although I'm also willing to accept that he may have done so unwittingly. His contributions to the Lost pages are considerable and commendable, but do the ends truly justify the means here? Geoffrey Mitchell 01:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The email I recieved told me to "admit I was wrong" — Doesn't state what I am wrong about. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 08:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This is incorrect. What was -asked- was that you be open to the possibility that you are wrong. If you'd like, I can post the e-mail contents verbatim, but that still doesn't explain your lack of response. An honest effort was made to open a dialog in hopes of resolving this in a mature, professional manner *without* unwanted interference from detractors/supporters of either side. If you're still willing to discuss and work out the issues we have with one another, the door's still open. I'm sure everyone here who's sick of the dispute would appreciate your participation. Sixty Six 07:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This thread you are responding to is from yesterday, and I believe the situation has calmed somewhat since then. On reading over the page in question again, I still believe statements were made that, at least, could reasonably be construed as legal or other threats and were therefore inappropriate. It is also submitted that your comments in the second paragraph of this edit are also unhelpful. That is irrespective of the merits of anyone's edits or editing patterns. Newyorkbrad 01:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, no legal threat was made, period. Pointing out the possibility, or warning that someone else could take a particular course of action is *not* a threat of said. Claiming so is simply a case of "shooting the messenger", and if you want to play that game you'd better bring a pretty damn big gun :-) :-) Sixty Six 07:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Cork

Cork has been unilaterally moved by someone and cannot be moved back. A vote on this issue closed less than two weeks ago and concluded no consensus to move this page. This move now is very unfair and an abuse of process. If people find they cannot get their way and then go ahead anyway their would be major upset and termoil of wikipedia. Please investigate and rectify. Djegan 00:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The page Cork just went through a unilateral move. It originally referred to the city in Ireland. The city page is now Cork (city in Ireland) which is non-standard for Irish cities (see the redir page Cork, County Cork, etc). The page Cork (disambiguation) is now full of circular references and furthermore, the page Cork now redirs to Cork (material). Recently, the Cork page survived two votes to move it (see Talk:Cork (city in Ireland)) only to have this happen. Not being an admin, I can't undo the damage. Help! - Alison 00:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The best I can say is to go through the process at WP:RM to get it undone. But I would talk to the user first; if they admit a mistake, it won't be controversial. But the bad naming convention is a problem, you're right. Cork should probably be a disambig page, and Cork, County Cork or Cork, Ireland (I looked under Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles), and it surprisingly had no mention of which). -Patstuart 00:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That's also already been discussed here on WP:IMOS. Thanks for the help, though :) - Alison 00:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I've just seen the above post; so there was a vote on this. Yes, that's a problem. I'll wait for an admin to intervene. -Patstuart 00:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• The first failed move vote can be found at Talk:Cork (city in Ireland) - Alison 00:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• The second failed move vote can be found at Talk:Cork_(material) - Alison 00:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Now the page has been moved to Cork, Ireland, I remember that saying which must of applied here; "screw process"? when you cannot be bothered doing things correctly and dont give a damn. Djegan 01:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• What a mess! :( It's a little better now, what with the dab page, but it's still wrong. At the very least, Cork city (I dare not wikilink any more!) should be at Cork, County Cork as per the discussion on WP:IMOS. However, the whole thing is in the air now and after two major pagemove debates, I'm very disappointed that this has now happened. Not good. - Alison 01:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Cork, Ireland is now in major conflict with County Cork as for most Irish people, the former relates to the county, not the city. - Alison 01:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, before you all get your panties in a bunch, let me explain. The disambig page needs to go at cork, and it needs to go there now so the rest of the mess can be straightened out. In order to do this, I picked an arbitrary city name amd moved it so the disambig page could be correct. Now you can fight about what to call the city article, as I really don't care in the least what you use. So go fight about that, but the disambig page is correct now pschemp | talk 01:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"I really don't care"...the new policy must be "screw process" when you dont have a consensus but want to push things thru'. The reason why consensus is important is that guidelines are just guidelines and not policies and guidelines do not often agree or are not always absolute for every stutation. Is their an admin in the house, please! Djegan 01:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Putting a disambig page in the correct place is not screwing process. The city had to be moved to something in order for that to happen. Use whatever process you like to decide the name of the city, I don't care. However, the disambig page belongs where it is. You have to start somewhere to clean up the mess. pschemp | talk 01:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

At least your honest that you dont give a damn, just want things your way and screw everyone else. Obviously you know better, why dont you become the encyclopedias sole editor. Have fun. Djegan 01:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And another move, now to Cork, County Cork. Can an admin please comment or investigate! Djegan 01:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You vitrol seems to have blinded you to the fact that I don't care what you name the city article, not that I don't care about process or anything else. pschemp | talk 01:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I realize that you guys just had a difficult fight over this one, but sometimes Manual of style considerations are most important. Also, please see WP:CIVIL - I personally care nothing either way for cork material or for the city, which is more important. However, this page deserves to be a disambig. It won't hurt anyone looking for the Irish article. Having the article at Cork, instead of a disambig page, was creating confusion, as should have been clear by the fact that the newbie thought it deserved to be moved. It's fairly standard on Misplaced Pages, if there is confusion, to not just link to the more popular article (which county cork could only arguably be): see George Bush, which could just point to "W.", as he's probably the most popular search, but it properly links right to the disambig page, in case we're looking for "H.W." (Father), or another. -Patstuart 01:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As i said before, fight amongst yourselves about what the city should be called, but cork is the proper disambig page. As much as you guys think Ireland is important, the city is not the most common use of the word. Consensus, and or lack of it does not trump common sense. pschemp | talk 01:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the recent RM discussions were mainly about whether the city should remain the primary topic for DAB purposes (which would suggest the city remains are Cork, like Philadelphia which is not a dab page). Both discusssions ended up with no consensus to move the city from Cork, so the recent move was controversial and lacked any consensus. (It also breaks about 1,200 internal links too) While personally I'm neutral on whether the city is the primary topic as there are cases to be made (and have been made) either way, I don't think it's appropiate for two discussions that said "no agreement to do X" to be followed up by doing X anyway, as that will simply cause more ill will in the long run. We are supposed to be encouraging discussion to resolve disputes, but ignoring discussion outcomes will do the exact opposite. Regards, MartinRe 01:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not participate in the discussions, so accusing me of ignoring them is silly. This is a simple thing. Cork referring to the city is not the most common usage of the word in English, therefore, Cork should not point to the city article. Common sense here trumps "lack of consensus." pschemp | talk 01:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, but let me point something out. Pepole that monitor a page often are fans of this thing, and they keep the page fairly biased. The people that voted in Cork looked to be trying to support their hometown rather than keep Misplaced Pages correct. If people monitoring the Mohammed page decided to change the text to say "it's a proven fact that Mohammed was the Prophet; worship him or go to Hell", it still wouldn't mean it's not NPOV, just because it was consensus. To be honest, consensus is normally the way to go, but if it trumps policy, guidelines, and common sense, then perhaps an outside source needs to step in. -Patstuart 01:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"The people that voted in Cork looked to be trying to support their hometown" - you're kidding, right? Where's the evidence for *that*? - Alison 01:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC) (not from Cork, BTW)

Let me say it again. This is a simple thing. Cork referring to the city is not the most common usage of the word in English, therefore, Cork should not point to the city article. Common sense here trumps "lack of consensus." Now, stop fighting and go do something constructive. pschemp | talk 01:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearly consensus and votes count for nothing, as long as you have the required admin rights you can do what you want and screw process. Djegan 02:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT a democracy. -Patstuart 02:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As we have seen I cannot disagree with you their. Its all about having sufficent rights to do as you please. I hope the people that moved it around will help with all the redirects now, or will they? Incidents like these are a genuine reminder as to why you should not waste too much time around here. Djegan 02:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As the user who moved the Cork article, here is why I did it. I typed "cork" into the Misplaced Pages search box, with the intention of reading about the material. However, I was redirected to an article about a city in Ireland. I've never heard of this city before, whereas almost every English speaker knows what a cork (material) is. So I decided to move the city article without reading the talk page.

I'm very sorry for causing trouble, but I wasn't trying to go against the 2 weeks of debate, because I never read them. --Bowlhover 02:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem. You didn't cause any permanent harm. This is exactly why cork should be a disambig page. I didn't know about the discussions either, but logic dictates the solution here regardless. Your actions ended up fixing a long standing issue. pschemp | talk 02:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this thread only after I reverted all things as were before, but nevertheless I stand by my revertion. I see the RM being re-debated here over and over, but has anyone take a goddam look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Cork? 99% of the stuff is meant for the city, and it takes a bot to sort out; it would take few hours even with AWB. The arguments were put forward at the RM, and I don't see all of those can be attributed to "Irish nationalism". Breaking things that ain't broken is the just wrong way to do. Satisfying few people looking for Cork (material) means pissing off many other people and many articles. Yes, there's WP:IAR but there's also WP:PI. And Cork, County Cork, where it ended up, is about the most stupid article title I've seen for a city. Duja► 10:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Please prove that the most common usage in the English langauge, all over the world is the city name. Otherwise, I will move it back. There are a lot of links here because we have a lot of people working on Irish related articles. Moving something and leaving a redirect does not "break" links or require a bot to fix. That's the whole point of redirects. But I'm serious here. You need to back up your assertation that most people seraching for cork mean the city. pschemp | talk 13:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

pschemp. We had this debate already - twice. And covered exactly the topic you note above. If you move the page without consideration to the previous discussion, or without attempting to gain some concencus/agreement, then any change you make will likely result in the same "request for admin" as this one did. Please don't make the change without opening a discussion in according to the appropriate renaming policies. Guliolopez 15:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an Irish nor I particularly care where the Cork city article resides. I was merely the closing admin at the RM who had the page at the watchlist, and was trying to extinguish the fire created by the unilateral move. The arguments for the move were not dismissed as a bad idea: actually, one of strong arguments against the move was the job involved in fixing all the links and suggestion that the move wasn't worth the fuss, and that following WP:MOS to the letter would be process wonking not worth the trouble. May I remind you that people come to articles more often by following a link from another article, than by typing into a search box? I can't prove (or disprove) what's the Average Joe's expected target when typing "Cork" in the search box, but I can prove that it's not Average Joe's expectation that he ends up in a dab page by following a link from elsewhere. And I endorse Angus's comment below. Duja► 16:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a couple of dozen editors !voting demonstrates anything much, even when I'm one of the in the majority. The fact that this has come up again, now with added wikidrama here, suggests that moving Cork-the-city to somewhere and Cork-the-dab-page to Cork may not be a bad idea after all. As for Philadelphia, I think of the stuff in silver plastic tubs, but what does that prove ? Having said that, leaving 1500 wikilinks pointing to a dab page is a Bad Thing. Any move needs to be conducted in a transparent-to-readers way. Decide where to move to; change the current Cork-the-city links to point there; move Cork-the-city there; move Cork-the-dab-page to Cork. No fuss, no drama, no big deal. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Great. As I said before, I have no opinion on what the name of the city article is. However, leaving a disambig page at an incorrect place because people can't be bothered to agree about the city article name is not a good reason to do so. Also, not moving something to the correct place because it will require work is hardly a valid reason either. I'm not going to sit around and wait a year to fix the disambig page because of a petty argument about the city article name. So, please, pick a name, any name but Cork and get it fixed. pschemp | talk 18:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is nothing but a content dispute now. Further discussion should be directed to the talk page of the city at whatever name it is at today. pschemp | talk 18:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

With respect to your comments here your just another admin, wikipedia may not be a democracy but your starting to sound like a dictator (re: "I'm not going to sit around and wait a year to fix the disambig page because of a petty argument about the city article name.", et al). Perhaps one of the most fundemental qualities of an admin is someone that can step back from an issue that they have an interest in {your comments make it clear that you believe that the city is not at all entitled to be at Cork} and not make the final decision. Let another, hopefully independent admin, make the final decision - if and when that point is reached. Been an admin is not about casting the final vote that sways the balance and then using your admin rights to carry it out. Djegan 00:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Mass organised harassment

I don't know how many people are aware of the ongoing incident with the Genmay article. It was tagged for speedy-deletion and I had the misfortune to be the one to evaluate it and delete it. Twice in fact, the first for the hasty reason that it appeared to be nonsense (I failed to check the history properly), and the second time when it was recreated on the grounds that the original and the repost fell under A7. Through the protests that ensued, I discovered that this was a repost after a delete-consensus AfD under a different name. (See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/General Mayhem.)

Since then I've been the target of mass harassment by the members of the forum. They have a thread where they organise and boast about their vandalism and harassment of me and my family, as well as the results of their attempts to Internet stalk me. Their mods seem useless and their site owner seems to take a hands-off approach. Worse, the results of their stalking have turned into bounties on my home address and phone number, as well as proposals to enable a member to track me down where I go to school to assault me. The user "Straw Man", who is very likely The Straw Man (talk · contribs), in the above thread: "so who's going to beat him up, then? I'm sure we have Vancouver embers". Regardless of whether their stalking has turned up the right "target", this is seriously out of line and way beyond illegal.

I've already blocked User:Genmay for posting what's intended to be contact information for me, but I know it's been spammed across many articles. That was a clear-cut block (inappropriate username) and deletion, but I shouldn't be the judge of the rest of the sockpuppets and meatpuppets as I'm their target.

Their thread has hit over 1500 posts about me and this page's deletion, and they don't seem to be anywhere near to losing interest. They've tried spreading their harassment attempts beyond Misplaced Pages and their forum to Digg.com.

I can take a lot of this garbage, though pulling my family into it is bad since I can't shoulder it for them. What I can't accept lying down are the bounties on my location and the threats of bodily harm. What does one do in such a situation? — Saxifrage ✎ 00:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you genuinely afraid for your person or family? I think the chances of some nerd actually hunting you down and killing you with a replica Klingon sword or bad body odour or something are extremely slim; but if I'm wrong about this then I really wouldn't want to have been the one to be complacent about it. But the number of death threats made by forum geeks vastly outweighs the number of murders done by forum geeks by something approaching infinity to one. It's a lot easier to threaten to do something illegal when you know that you're completely incapable of it, physically and mentally. --Sam Blanning 00:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Contact your local police and let them know what is going on. Go to the alexa page or whois page for the forum's website and contact the local police at the address of the page owner. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Easily the safest solution to be honest. If I lived on the American continent and had a family I would probably be vastly more inclined to make the effort. --Sam Blanning 00:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I've had a number of people threaten awful violence against me on Misplaced Pages, as I'm sure almost any of us who does counter-vandalism has. But if they're trying to post your home address, and they have a thread about you with over 1500 posts to it, then that's pretty over the top. I would also advise going to police. -Patstuart 00:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I blocked the Straw Man. Seriously, tell them I'm the one actually responsible for the deletion so they can come harass me, I don't really care. They sound like hollow threats, but I can understand your being bothered by them. Aside from legal action, the best way to make trolls like that go away is to just ignore them... all they're really going for is getting under your skin. --W.marsh 00:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, you're right, they're wrong and they're just pissed that something they care about a lot is not worth including... it's the same with teenager's bands... The threats are empty so you don't have to worry about them. Cbrown1023 00:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Also agree you should go to the police. In the meantime I am closing the deletion review per WP:SNOW and per this being unacceptable behavior. JoshuaZ 00:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be at least one long-term user upset with my closing at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2006 November 13. If anyone else wants to take a look at the discussion and give opinions I would appreciate it. If another admin thinks what I did should be reversed feel free. JoshuaZ 01:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely right to close it early. None of these trolls gets anymore air-time on Misplaced Pages, period. If Rizla's last post is in fact the end of it, then I suggest leaving the page in that state for now, with just the discussion between JoshuaZ and Rizla. --Sam Blanning 01:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I will then rollback any edits to the section by Genmay sockpuppets or anons. This will also hopefully take some of the heat off of Saxifrage because I'll be the one pissing them off. JoshuaZ 01:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

i'll just say this much - it's one thing to close down something early. It's another to give in to trolls, which is what I believe we've done here. Let's be consistent about it for god's sake. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Um ... excuse me? In the first place, no one gave in anything to anyone; the page is still deleted. (I have never seen the underlying page, and have no opinion on the deletion.) In the second and far more important place, and with all due respect, I am afraid I have to strongly question any reasoning that prioritizes rigorous adherence to the deletion review procedure over the issues raised in this thread. The repeated and credible threats of real-life harassment and retaliation against an administrator (or any user) as described above are extremely serious. The need to deter and mitigate the effects of such conduct is of such importance as to supersede consideration of such matters as how long a deletion review is supposed to last. Newyorkbrad 03:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Someone seems to have done something, as they took down the offending thread on their forums, apparently. --W.marsh 03:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Some of their threads are user only. Someone may want to get an ID and check if its still there. JoshuaZ 04:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
    • "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator". Oh well, maybe one day, eh?--Dreaded Walrus 04:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I hope that doesn't mean the administrators have just made it impossible for non-users to read the death threats, and that they're actually still there. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
        • I'm pretty sure that's the reason actually. From what I've seen of their moderators they can be as bad as the users. They have a strange pay-the-moderator system of enforcement, so irritating people are banned by having enough people pay the moderator to do so. It's entirely possible someone paid to have the thread hidden and to have new account creation disabled. — Saxifrage ✎ 19:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
          • Is anyone aware of anyone who already has an account who might be able to take a look? Meanwhile, Saxifrage I hope you've contacted the local cops. JoshuaZ 19:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
            • I have. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Does the Foundation not have any policy about handling this? I do have reason now to think they're serious, and I'm taking the measures I can as a private individual. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You certainly should contact the Foundation office if you haven't already. Any further discussion of steps to be taken should probably occur off-Wiki. Newyorkbrad 04:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Death threat

I've had a death threat in response to an AfD I initiated from User:Durin's Bane issued here . I really don't think it's serious, but throughout this entire process he's been extraordinarily uncivil -- nearly all the exchange between us took place on User talk:Durin's Bane and is the entire content of that page so there's no point in giving a diff -- and perhaps some consequences are in order. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Death threats get the banhammer, end of story. --Sam Blanning 00:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Request temp block

User 81.214.149.234 - repeated vandalism - or is it a group IP? Danlibbo 00:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You should use WP:AIV. Cbrown1023 00:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

cheers Danlibbo 00:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

iwiki link removal

A group of Russian users concentrated around Portal:Russia/Russia-related Misplaced Pages notice board is going through wikipedia and removing links to articles in ru-sib: caliming to be doing so based on WP:EL. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.16.230.249 (talk • contribs) 01:06, 16 November 2006.

Could you give some concrete examples? It would help Patstuart 01:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

, , ,, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.16.230.249 (talk • contribs) 01:12, 16 November 2006.

Just a note, the links that were removed in those articles are all links to the pages on the Siberian-language wiki. Cbrown1023 01:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed; I've sent the one guy a message, and now that I have another dif, I'll be sending the other guy one too. Here's the thing, though; a bot will probably pick up the interwiki on another language version, and it'll be restored soon enough. But it's still suspect. -Patstuart 01:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Siberian wikipedia is up for deletion at meta. I am not sure what is the procedure for removing links to proposed deleted projects, but some of the bots who added the links were requested to not add them again until we know what is going on with them. I think we should wait and see how the deletion goes. If the project is kept, then add the links back in. User:Zscout370 01:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better the other way around? Delete the interwikis after the language Wiki is gone? Patstuart 01:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The so-called "sib-wiki" is a disgrace of the Wikimedia foundation that was deceived into hosting this obscene project which is nothing more than a combination of smut and hate-speech. The so called "Siberian language" is a one man project of Yaroslav Zolotaryov (talk · contribs) who carried his crusade at different places, most recently at LiveJournal, but now moved his lobbying to the various Wikimedia projects. His view that Siberian langauge exists as a feasable one is not a subject of the discussion at WP:ANI. Nor there is any interest to discuss his one-man crusade to codify this imagined language, also so far unsuccesful as not a single book on or in such language was published. In any case, should the foundation have decided to grant him the resources to promote his interesting linguistic exercises, few people would have been conserned about that. That's why his initial proposal to get himself a Misplaced Pages hosted by foundation met little opposition. But what grew out of it is a disgusting site filled to the brim with frivolous articles at best and the propaganda of ethnic hatred at worst.

Some examples from this "Misplaced Pages":

• an article about Hamlet, (ru-sib version) includes Zolotaryov's own translation of this great work of world literature. The original line (Marcellus: Peace! break thee off! Look where it comes again!) is translated in this article as "Motherfucker brought his ass here again")
• an article about Pushkin (ru-sib version) tells you this about his Eugene Onegin novel. "A novel about a noble who has nothing to do so he screws the chicks around him."

This is all funny and may even seem almost harmless but there is more.

• There is a ru-sib Misplaced Pages article called "The Scum of Moscow". The article uses horrific expressions and threats from Zolotaryov to "Muscovites"
• Another article is called "When the time will come" This "article" makes serious death threats directed against several ethnicities such as "from Ural to Chukchi Sea all the land will be ours and lest the death meets the rest" and also "We will cover our path with corpses".

Need I say more? Wikimedia's sites hosting obscenities, hate speach and even death threats are bound to undermine the reputation of the foundation. If we allow such Wikipedias and links to them, why not allow their own wikiepdias and links to Ku Klux Klan and National Socialist White People's Party? This entire project is the disgrace to the foundation and is now finally under the vote to close it. But even while it is yet open, linking the articles about medieval histories to the sites that promote the hate speech is unacceptable.

This has nothing to do with censorship. I will welcome the article about Zolotaryov's movement with refeferences to his statements, if he is deemed notable. --Irpen 03:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• I am second to Irpen. Until this ru-sib Wiki is cleaned up and radically improved interwiking to it is the spamlinking in tis worst. I think we need a formal RfC to decide if we want any links to it. Alex Bakharev 03:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, what a fanactical mess over there. The fact is, we already deleted the article on this ficticious langauge of Siberian as non-notable, so linking to it doesn't make sense. There is no verification that it exists in any way. I hope they do delete it, but in the mean time, removing the links is a good thing. (And good luck with the madman on meta!)pschemp | talk 03:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You can check the vote and even cast your own but the trouble with Meta votes is that they are always hijacked by sock- and meat-puppets. So, I am not sure what will come out of this. Perhaps, Jimbo's decision is needed on that. In any case, for now iw bots should be tuned to not link to this disgusting project. --Irpen 03:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the meta? I'd like to look at the vote; also, if you have any online russian translators, it would be helpful (because, if you say that siberian isn't a language, and can understand it, I imagine I can just type it into the russian translator). I'd like to be able to vote at the meta project and see if this is all true. Patstuart 04:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

meta:Proposals for closing projects/Close Siberian wikipedia is the link to the ongoing vote but it is now a multilingual mess where meatpuppets curse each other in the mix of English and Russian (no "siberian" there) with occasional sane voices from established users. The online RU-EN translator may be found at translate.ru but it will be of no use to you since the so called "siberian" used by Zolotaryov entirely consists of distorted Russian words. So, the online translatior won't recognize a thing. If you doubt that the translations by me are honest and want to verify, you can ask other users from Category:User ru (make sure you pick those at the level of ru-3 to ru-n since intermediate speekers won't be able to deconstruct Zolotaryov's distortions). You may also check the discussion I had with another user at user talk:A4. Some of it is in Ukrainian as the other user insisted in not using English but from the English parts you can figure the rest pretty easily as I used English specifically to make this discussion available to anyone interested. If you have questions about any particular article in ru-sib, feel free to ask me at my talk page. --Irpen 04:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Blockle

This user seems to be an admitted sock. Is it OK to delete his posts at the RD or should an admin deal with it? --hydnjo talk 01:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If his posts haven't been replied to and add nothing of significance, best to revert them to discourage sockpuppetry and avoid wasting editors' time replying to them. It doesn't have to be an admin that removes them - we just have some extra buttons, we don't have extra power to make decisions except where those buttons are needed. --Sam Blanning 01:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks Sam. --hydnjo talk 02:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As I checked blocklist he was already blocked for admitting socks. Daniel5127 (Talk) 05:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ive been deleting the ones I found on the RD and talk:RD pages.--Light current 16:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Mujeerkhan's sockpuppetry

Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mujeerkhan for background. This user, Mujeerkhan, obsessively edits Tipu Sultan, and has created several sockpuppets. Further sockpuppets have just been discovered after a new checkuser request to me. These include:

• Shezaad786 (talk · contribs)
• Gurpal z (talk · contribs)
• Geniusguy123 (talk · contribs)
• Mysorebhai (talk · contribs)
• Littlegem (talk · contribs)
• Aussiemite (talk · contribs)
• Indianpathan (talk · contribs)

I would appreciate if another administrator could look into this matter and take the appropriate steps. Thanks. Dmcdevit·t 01:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

All tagged and blocked. // Pilotguy (Cleared to land) 00:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Robin Hayes

The Robin Hayes article continues to have the same user removing the text:

The 2006 election, a blue moon election, is still in doubt, since the vote totals of Hayes and Kissell differ by less than the number of provisional votes, which are counted ten days after election day.

The user seems to be coming from a static ip, and never gives a reason.

This is my first "edit war", and I don't quite know what to do, especially since this is an IP, not a user.

Avshalom Feinberg Vandalism

An IP vandal did stuff of the Avshalom Feinberg page. User_talk:64.240.244.98 has some warnings from Jan 2006 but came back. I don't really know what else to do besides reporting it here. Is this correct? --66.82.9.82 02:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You probably want to go through WP:AIV; that's where to report obvious vandalism. You can also see WP:VAND for guidelines on warning users, as a user will probably not be blocked before being warned. Good luck. -Patstuart 02:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Best place for reporting for this is on WP:AIV, I would suggest you to use WP:AIV next time when you want to report vandalisms. Daniel5127 (Talk) 05:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Poopman6969

I'm unsure where to put this since this might go under Personal attacks, 3RR, and Sockpuppetry, so hopefully someone can help me here anyways, or point me in the right direction. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Poopman6969,

The usernames seem like they're both throwaway accounts. The second name was created after the first stopped editing, and both have been working on the same page. The page is also obviously a speedy delete candidate, but the second username took over editing, so drmspeedy templates cannot be used, which makes me think it's a sockpuppet. Simply look at the page's reversion history.

• 1st Revert
• 2nd Revert
• 3rd Revert
• 4th Revert
• 5th Revert

I just noticed that Poopman6969 is now blocked --ArmadilloFromHell 02:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And the page was deleted the minute after I posted this, so someone can just remove this, probably. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u/Pumpkin Pie

I just determined that Pumpkin Pie is an abusive sockpuppet of banned user, Cute 1 4 u. As per WP:BAN, I am enforcing the ban by reverting all edits (at least, all with the rollback button still active) from this user. --Yamla 02:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that the new user account had also been blocked for numerous personal attacks. Even with a fresh start, this user is unable or unwilling to abide by Misplaced Pages policy. Please keep this in mind if considering unbanning this user at some point in the future. --Yamla 02:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

She came back? She really loves us! /endsarcasm—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Not directly involved in this sockpuppet problem, I thought that Cute 1 4 u has another sockpuppets that has never been mentioned before. Yes, This account was used abusively, and I think best idea is to keep an eye on this disruptive user for while. Because I saw that this banned user used sockpuppets to make personal attacks. Daniel5127 (Talk) 05:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is still going on since about 3 months ago. Daniel5127 (Talk) 05:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I checked the history and added a {{sockpuppetproven}} tag. --Coredesat 06:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

For future reference, {{sockblock}} is good for those accounts. 68.39.174.238 15:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe that she made yet another sockpuppet. I was all for her unblocking, but now... The RSJ 03:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Fui_fui_moi_moi1

• Special:Contributions/Fui_fui_moi_moi1
• User:Fui_fui_moi_moi1 blocked
• Special:Contributions/Fui_fui_moi_moi2
• User:Fui_fui_moi_moi2 blocked
• Special:Contributions/Fui_fui_moi_moi3
• User:Fui_fui_moi_moi3 blocked

His last edit summary was "User talk:Fui fui moi moi3 (anal sex with monkeys....... c u tomm)". If he intends to keep vandalising, IMHO this vandal needs to be prevented. Would IP-blocking be a good idea? --Kjoonlee 03:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Fui_fui_moi_moi4 was created just after Fui_fui_moi_moi3 was blocked: this isn't good, is it? --Kjoonlee 03:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the dates/times, you'll see that he kept on creating new accounts after receiving the blocks. --Kjoonlee 03:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Fuifui Moimoi. {{usernameblock}} could also be applied, if req'd. Daniel.Bryant 05:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Sixty Six thread above

Not sure if anyone noted my post to this thread above dealing with User:Sixty Six. Has any admin had an opportunity to take a look at this situation? The nature of the discussion on that user's talk page is concerning. Newyorkbrad 04:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Has anything happened since last night? The user was left some strongly-worded warnings then, and I'd only want to take action if this continues. Morwen - Talk 15:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My post was from last night and I see subsequent warning. Not aware of any activity since then. Thanks. Newyorkbrad 15:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you block IP 220.227.207.31?

Can you block IP 220.227.207.31 who is dumping non-sense on Hinduism? swadhyayee 06:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

With only two challenged, not blatantly vandalist edits? No. If it becomes a problem, there are 3RR and vandalism boards to report it on. --Golbez 07:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but similar things was reverted by me yesterday. The matter has been opposed by editors on talk page. Yet, the deliberate nuisance continues. swadhyayee 07:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, vandalism should be reported on this page, but only after the individual has been warned a few times (given a test4 level warning). This page is not for reporting things like that. Hope that helps, Localzuk 08:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I am sorry., I checked his contributions and he has been vandalising other religious and Indian articles. I am not familiar with use of warning tameplates. Could you kindly give him warning? Please. You may check his contributions. swadhyayee 08:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Kislev

An anon editor is copypasting in a copyrighted summary (complete with copyright) into Kislev. I reverted him twice, but I need to go to sleep, so someone needs to warn him/keep an eye on the page. --PresN 07:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's always better to revert and warn. Some users just think their changes got lost and repost. I've warned him and it's on my watxch list, but I too need sleep --ArmadilloFromHell 08:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

All those edit summaries you have left there sound like newbie WP:BITEing. Please be polite with the newcomers and leave a message on their talk page explaining why you reverted their edits. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

User Fashion1

I have blocked Fashion1 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) for violating WP:3RR at Lindsey German (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I have reverted him a few times over there but am not the only one and am not really involved in the conflict other than in an enforcement capacity; he is insistent that any addition or restoration of an image he does not like is "vandalism". At least he is now starting to talk about it rather than just engaging in drive-by deletions. Guy (Help!) 14:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

User:IZAK criticizing same-sex marriage on talk page

Rather than discuss the article content, or even discuss the criticism of the article subject, IZAK has instead decided to criticize same-sex marriage on an article talk page (example):

"Shame on South Africa, as it has now violated the Bible's prohibition which specifically forbids male homosexuality as stated clearly in Leviticus 18:22: "DO NOT LIE WITH A MALE AS YOU WOULD WITH A WOMAN, SINCE THIS IS A DISGUSTING PERVERSION" (וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא) ...one wonders what will come next?"

Despite repeated removals by others, IZAK has continued to add this opinion back to the talk page, and criticize others who complain about his actions. He's up to his 4th addition of that content to the talk page. See related discussion at User_talk:IZAK. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-11-16 14:18Z

I'd protect, and block for 3RR. Will 14:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The appropriate fact to consider here is that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. This applies to talk pages just as much as articles. Morwen - Talk 14:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

So, um... who is user KeeperHL (talk · contribs)? —freak(talk) 20:18, Nov. 16, 2006 (UTC)

This is a good law but invariably a distraction from the most pressing problems facing South Africa. Shame on the Tripartite Alliance for selling out the South African masses by serving the rich. Oh, and תועבה translates as "abomination" not "disghusting practice." Am I on topic yet? El_C 22:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Either translation seems reasonable although yours is somewhat closer. Its a strange word that doesn't show up many times so there doesn't seem to be much context for translating it IMO. JoshuaZ 03:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

For a useful discussion of this issue, see Saul M. Olyan, "'And with a Male You Shall Not Lie the Lying Down of a Woman': On the Meaning and Significance of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13" (G. D. Comstock and S. E. Henking, Que(e)rying Religion: A Critical Anthology, Continuum: 1997, pp. 398-414). Chick Bowen 05:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, members in the current South African regime are imperialist-lackyes who betrayed the people. As an aside, תועבה originated during biblical times as a pejorative term used by the Israelites to denote animals considered holy by the goyim. El_C 10:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Machine head1994

This user has created an attack page (Lee Sumner), which included the individual concerned's myspace account name. The article was posted for speedy deletion, but User:Machine head1994 deleted the tags (now restored). They have been cited for unwiki-like conduct three times today by three different users.

perfectblue 15:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked for vandalism all contributions.--Dakota 17:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

88.3.25.248 removing Basque content

FYI: 88.3.25.248 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) went on a short spree removing references to the Basque Country (autonomous community) today. I've reverted those that I've seen. Slambo (Speak) 15:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

not a weasle, again

this was within 1/2 hour of end of a cooling down block (spose he has toned down a bit:) figured it goes here as the 1st one is above, . & i'm more worried about the abuse of process than anything else. i've left a note w/ User_talk:Netsnipe#User:NotAWeasel (who blocked him 1st time) so ignore if u think that's enuf. thx  ⇒ bsnowball  16:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

eventualy i remember to rv it & warn user for bv, so again, if that's enough, ignore  ⇒ bsnowball  17:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Indian politician images

WikiProject Indian politics has been creating Indian politician stubs with a image from the Indian government website and tagging them with {{India-politician-photo}}. Around 600 images were uploaded by various members of the project. Today, User:Abu badali comes round and tags them all to be deleted. I would appreciate some advise on this. I feel the politician photos are correct under Misplaced Pages fair-use policy. When a free-image is available, the fair-use can be discontinued and deleted. I am concerned with this user saying on his user page, "No, I don't dislike images. I just prefer them free.". This is not fair to people who have put-in a lot of time in uploading the images. Please advise. -- Ganeshk (talk)

From WP:FUC: "No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information. However, if the subject of the photograph still exists, a freely-licensed photograph could be taken." These images are correctly being tagged with {{subst:rfu}} by Abu badali, at least assuming that the images he is tagging are for living people. --Yamla 18:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

User:172

"you are no longer welcome on my talk page, and Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for fringe political activists" was the response to my on two content disputes. User:172 has consistently reverted addition of anarchism-related content to both the Communism , , , , , and Socialism , , . Given my recent block, I am trying to remain civil, but this is not acceptable. This is clearly not a simple content dispute, but a tendentious editor who thinks he owns these articles and can change things without discussion and ignoring valid arguments that disagree with him. Donnacha 18:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree completly with User:172. JBKramer 19:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You agree completely with User:172 about what, exactly? His edits? If so, that's beside the point. His response to an offer of mediation? Nice to know, but that brings him right up to Point 5 of the policy on Dealing with disruptive editors (talk page tried, mediation rejected). The guidelines say the solution to that is: "Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents administrator intervention: warning or temporary block as appropriate." Donnacha 20:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with Donnacha. User:172 apparently feels that his claim to be a "professional" historian provides him with more authority than other editors on wikipedia. His reasons for deleting various information essentially amounts to what he personally holds true. He is unaccepting of divergent viewpoints grounded in history, which nullify any claims on his part of neutrality. He acts exclusively rather than inclusively. Blockader 20:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is spurious complaint and clear misuse of the administrators' noticeboard. The noticeboard is meant for users to post complaints about the conduct of other users, not for content disputes. Users who misuse the noticeboards should be admonished by experienced editors not to do so in the future, and sanctioned if they continue the behavior. Donnachadelong (talk · contribs) was blocked for 31 hours on November 15 for similar conduct-- "violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA." I recommend that administrators and other experienced editors continue to assist this user on developing more constructive ways of engaging people who raise questions about the content he contributes to articles. 172 | Talk 21:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that both of you take a few steps back and cool down; 172, your language is out of line, and Donna, this isn't the right place for this. --InShaneee 21:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's Donnacha. Am I misreading the guideline or what? Point 5 of the policy on Dealing with disruptive editors (talk page tried, mediation rejected). The guidelines say the solution to that is: "Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents administrator intervention: warning or temporary block as appropriate." I am following the guidelines to avoid a heated argument with a disruptive editor following my (disputed) blocking. Donnacha 22:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the disruptive editor is you. Stop with the Anarchist POV pushing. It's bad enough in the anarchist walled garden. Don't damage the rest of the encyclopedia. JBKramer 22:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't once pushed my point of view, the piece on anarchists was already in the Communism article. I simply gave it a section heading to make it easier to read. Another editor asked me to source it properly, so I did just that. Anarchist Communism is a very important part of communist history and it's POV-pushing to remove it. As for the socialism article, my so-called "POV pushing" has been to add a wikilink to a description already in the article. Wow! 172's objection is that the term is a neologism, despite Libertatia's post that he can show a use of the French translation socialisme libertaire from 1894 and I've shown a modern use by Chomsky (the person who has popularised the term) from 1970. Wow, a 36-year-old neologism! Donnacha 22:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that "Anarchist Communism" is a "very important part of communist history." File an article RFC to get more uninvolved eyes on it. Agree to abide by the results. User:Libertatia is part of your problematic walled garden. JBKramer 23:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And you accuse me of POV? Your agreement or the lack thereof is not the issue, any neutral observer can see that the split in the First International, the development of anarchist communism in Catalonia and the Ukraine, its influence on the IWW, the New Left and recently the anti-globalisation are notable issues. I suggested mediation, a less confrontational way to resolve the dispute than RFC, and was rudely rejected. Donnacha 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My language is not really out of line. My edit summaries mentioning 'anarchist POV-pushing' are a bit blunt, but they were provoked after I was accused on vandalism following an initially civil reply. 172 | Talk 21:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

172, calling him a 'fringe political activist' and accusing him of 'anarchist POV-pushing' are more than blunt, and 'he started it' is not a valid excuse. Donnacha, there are other steps in dispute resolution; if this is about content, you might consider a Request for Comment. JBKramer, settle down and stop with the accusations. --InShaneee 22:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not about content, it's about a disruptive editor who has rejected an offer to enter mediation. 172 continues to remove sections of the Communism article without consulting any other editor (I'm not the only one to have reverted his changes). I've shown the seven times he's done the same edit. Is the Disruptive editing guideline a guideline or not? If so, 172 has rejected mediation, which was my attempt to go to step 4 (Request an Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment or other impartial dispute resolution.), thus it is now at step 5 when the guideline states "Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents administrator intervention: warning or temporary block as appropriate." Donnacha 22:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

File an article RFC and swear to abide by the results. JBKramer 22:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

So it's not a guideline then? I'd like an admin to clarify that. Does an offer to enter mediation not qualify as "impartial dispute resolution"? Donnacha 22:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiLawyering is wrong. File an article RFC. JBKramer 23:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I am perfectly settled, thank you. I do not see a policy about calling spades windmills. When I see spades, I call them spades. There is a spade here. JBKramer 22:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No one has to swear to anything, and all of you seriously need to settle down and take this to dispute resolution elsewhere. The next person who decides to throw out another accusation is getting blocked for disruption. --InShaneee 00:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict; I tried to post the following before InShanee had, & I hope InShanee will take that into consideration)

User:172 has had a long history of incivility & hostility to others that extends back, well, from the moment he started editting on well, from the moment he started editting on Misplaced Pages four years ago. (Some of his early comments would have resulted in a permanent ban under contemporary attitudes.) He has been excused for this behavior because "he makes useful edits". I believe Donnacha has ample grounds to dispense with the steps in dispute resolution -- although I applaud Donnacha's steps to assume good faith & to work towards an understanding between them -- & open a case before the ArbCom. -- llywrch 00:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this and, without any accusations, am honestly asking what next? If the Disruptive editing guidelines are inaccurate, then they should be changed. If the ArbCom is the way to go, then I'll take that advice. Donnacha 00:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFC might be a good place. If nothing comes of that, than arbitration may indeed be needed, as suggested above. --InShaneee 00:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The ArbCom doesn't interfere with straightforward content disputes, which is what this appears to be, and the Anarchist Communism section did look inappropriate — a bit like adding a section on Jews for Jesus to Judaism. This isn't the place for content disputes either. The best way forward is, first, to read the content policies very carefully (WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:NPOV) and to follow them religiously, and if that doesn't resolve things (and it usually does), then to file an article RfC for neutral input. SlimVirgin 09:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

User:87.78.181.124

This user is otherwise known as User:Subversive element, User:Tit for tat, and User:Jan Jakea. All have been indefinitely banned. I am certain that the user is the same because he uses the same IP block, and has formerly admitted, while editing from this IP range, to being the above-mentioned users. Moreover, his contributions are unmistakeable.

In spite of this, the user has continued to edit Misplaced Pages, disrupting ArbCom nominations, and is currently deleting my comments and replacing them with his own disruptive posts at User talk:Williamwells (I have reverted his edits there in accordance with WP:BLOCK, but in my view admin intervention is required). Thank you. Jakew 19:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In the immediate, you could report to WP:AIV and the user can be temp banned. Perhaps an administrator will take a look at this report after that, though, and give a longer ban. -Patstuart 20:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Blanking page - edit summaries

Maybe it's just me, maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to recent changes, but there seems to be many anon. vandalism edits where they put "Blanking page" in the edit summary. (such as just to point out a few that have come recently) and vandals providing edit summaries, such as "Replacing page with..." These are not coming nearly at the volume that would indicate a vandal bot, but wonder if there is something to this pattern? --Aude (talk) 20:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Those are automatically generated edit summaries. It's a new feature that's been added to the software. -- Steel 20:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)q

Nevermind, I see this is being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Is there a new vandal tool out there? --Aude (talk) 20:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The goddamned WikiCouch

I created User:PHDrillSergeant/WikiCouch. I copied it to project space (Misplaced Pages:The WikiCouch, leaving User:PHDrillSergeant/WikiCouch behind in case the essay (not even a policy. An essay.) didn't go over well. Which it didn't.

So after the projectspace version was gone, I decided to continue working on/improving The userspace version. I figured, it's an essay! It's opinion. I can keep it there until it's improved.

On the same MfD as the projectspace version, Cyde began to argue that the Userspace version should be deleted too.. Well, who the hell am I to argue with an admin? So I put {{db-author}} on it and it was deleted at my request. I had saved a code copy on my computer, and fixed it up, requesting User:Gurch to recreate it. He did so.

Keep in mind, I had changes and altered and improved the essay at this point.

Today, Cyde deleted the page for recreation. This action:

• Is not right since it was a seriously atered version of the page
• Is not right because it was userspace and follows different deletion guidelines
• Is not right because I had deleted it in the first place
• Is not right because I was not notified and had no say in this second deletion
• Is not right because it is an act of Wheel-warring

So what am I supposed to do? Why should I stay here if I can't even attempt to help Misplaced Pages without having my hard work destroyed?

I'm not trying to speak out against Cyde, I'd just like to have my page restored. ~ PHDrillSergeant...and his couch...§ 20:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you tried asking Cyde? --Ginkgo100 21:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes he did. IMHO opinion, Cyde was a bit out of bounds with that. If he wants to delete something in PHD's userspace, we can go through another xfd. -Patstuart 21:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps not. Maybe you should go to Deletion Review? I was under the impression that some people had voted userfy on the afd, but I don't see it. Perhaps they will take up your case. -Patstuart 21:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I would except that Deletion Review does not cover speedily-deleted articles. ~ PHDrillSergeant...and his couch...§ 21:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Who said it doesn't? Titoxd 21:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does. -Patstuart 21:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

DRV on Cleveland Steamer

Cleveland Steamer recently went through it's 6th AfD (here) instigated only two weeks after the last one. The response was 'keep', and in all previous AfDs it has either been Keep or No Consensus. It was brought to Deletion Review here (where the nominator essentially tried another AfD, pretty much in the wrong place) and consensus was building to endorse closure when User:Improv deleted it out-of-hand. He's entitled to his opinion on the matter, but he can't ignore process (which involved support from other admins to keep) and delete it like that. I would welcome opinions on the conduct of the decision (not so much on the content of the page). Trebor 22:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the most current DRV was initiated by the sockpuppet of User:Brian G. Crawford to boot, and that Improv is the same admin who found it prudent to delete articles such as Teddy Grahams and Famous Amos as spam. I have a feeling, but no evidence, that User:Guglielmo Clintone, the 6th AfD'er may be a sock of Crawford too. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't let process get in the way of improving the encyclopedia. I hope nobody restores this. Tom Harrison 22:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Too late. WarpstarRider 22:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't process meant to help improve the encyclopaedia? I've got nothing against debate on the merits of the page, just against admins making decisions unilaterally. The article has been restored (the talk page hasn't) now. Trebor 22:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Process (i.e. the rule of law) is the only thing that keeps wikipedia from descending into a Hobbesian state of eternal wheel warring. An admin that shits all over process - whatever the Cleveland Steamer of the moment - thereby demonstrating pure disdain for fellow users who are participating in good faith in the process, should not be an administrator. An administrator who becomes convinced that his judgement is more worthy than the collective contribution and thinking of hundreds of other users no longer has the self control to act as an administrator. This event was a good example of why all admins should be open to recall. --JJay 23:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Consensus can't override foundation issues. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a slang dictionary. This should have been left deleted. Friday (talk) 23:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And we've been through all those issues ad nauseum, and they have not gained a lick of traction. At best, they don't violate any "foundation issues," at worst it's a judgement call - which is why consensus should rule the day. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You cannot assert that it overrides foundation issues, it is not clear-cut. If it was, there would not have been nearly so much debate. It was an issue with experienced editors arguing coherently for both sides, and in these cases consensus is the only way you should decide it. It is not up to the discretion of a single admin. Trebor 23:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I must say, though Improv might have broken process, that seeing it go would have been very good riddance. To give my nasty opinion, it's a shame that humanity would even think of such an awful deed, let alone practice it and glorify it with an article. One thing Misplaced Pages does not need for publicity is Jon Stewart standing on comedy central and quoting directly from this article. Granted, I can't support this with rule (hence the reason I didn't vote in the last afd), but wow, this is pretty low. -Patstuart 03:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It isn't at all clear to me that this should have been deleted. The matter is sourced at this point and I see no obvious foundation issue. As for Jon Stewart, I think Misplaced Pages can survive ribbing from Comedians. I could very well see someone see this as a reason to get rid of BDSM or some other sexual article that offends people's sensibility. Personally, I find this topic disgusting and revolting to the point where I almost have to work to suppress my gag reflex. However, none of that is a reason for deletion and is certainly not a reason for an out of process deletion.JoshuaZ 03:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely with JoshuaZ and JJay above. I don't see "Does Jon Stewart find this article amusing? (YES/NO)" on our list of inclusion criteria. A) I don't understand why this is a Foundation issue; B) It is inherently outrageous and anti-wiki for an admin to blatantly overide consensus; C) It is deeply offensive (far more offensive than the article itself) that anyone should seek to censor the encyclopaedia because they don't like the information it contains- see e.g. this, and many similar, for some examples of how and why this is done. 6 AfDs is enough. Badgerpatrol 04:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is not that people don't like it, but that the article consists of a dictionary definition, some original research, and "pop culture references" (aka cruft). There is nothing encyclopaedic about this article. Guy (Help!) 10:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say to censor it, I said it would be good riddance if someone did. But, in any case, my personal opinion (not Misplaced Pages policy, so I can't ask for it to be enforced), is that sometimes we take free speech, which is supposed to be a means, and make it into an end. Free speech is supposed to help people become more informed for a useful purpose (a means), help improve something (a means), etc.; becoming offended at the lack of free speech (an end) does not fit into this category. It's proper to become offended at the lack of free speech where it's used repressively, or in order to hurt content. Do you see my point about free speech being a means, not an end (I'm not sure if I'm communicating it well). Even Misplaced Pages says Misplaced Pages is NOT anarchy, meant to test the limits of free speech. Again, I don't think it's policy, so I have no right to enforce it or call for its enforcement; just my opinion, as we all have opinions. -Patstuart 04:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The "useful purpose" is knowledge. Full stop. Badgerpatrol 04:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like it, too bad. Don't read it. We are not the morality police. RFerreira 05:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• For reference, my deletion had nothing to do with finding the subject disgusting or anything of that sort. I am libertine when it comes to such things. I deleted it solely because it was very clearly a dictionary definition. Consensus is not about voting, it's about discussion, and good arguments. This is an exceptionally clear case of when loud users who don't understand our project goals lead a bunch of fans away from them, ignoring everything our project is about and confusing consensus with democracy. I don't intend to redo my deletion (although I would encourage other admins to do so) because I don't wheel war, but I stand by it entirely. Wiktionary and Misplaced Pages are not the same project, and process is not sacred. People who would never go against a "vote", no matter how ill-informed and ill-conducted, even when it stands in the way of project goals, are people who should probably never be either closing discussions, nor should they be administrators. --Improv 07:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • So although you have no intention of engaging in a wheel war personally, you encourage other admins to do so? Take a bow my friend. RFerreira 07:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I encourage other admins to delete it, not to wheel war. This is how we reconcile project goals, IAR, and a desire not to wheel. As you say, I shall take a bow. *bow* :) --Improv 07:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • But the way you deleted it implied it was something you would have happily deleted on sight, seeing as you deleted it in the midst of a DRV (which is about process, not content), which was endorsing the previous decision anyway. If it is so "exceptionally clear", how come admins support both sides? Should the admins who closed the 6 AfDs on the article all step down? I would say that people who will happily delete something, out-of-process, against consensus from experienced editors and admins, because of their personal opinion of the arguments shouldn't be an admin either. Trebor 07:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Look at the AfD. Half of them don't even address the article, merely saying "abuse of AfD" or something, and are invalid on their face because they ignore the question of if the article should be deleted. None of the other arguments adequately deal with the fact that a definition and a few references that the term is indeed used does not make it anything more than a dictionary definition. Neither consensus nor AfD consist of taking votes. I am not proposing that anyone step down, merely that people had mistaken ideas about what AfD is about. We all make mistakes, and we all come to understand the project and its goals better as time goes on - demanding "justice" for an inadequately thought-out position would be a bad idea. I should note that what actually happens always comes down to judgement, whether from one person or from some combination of people - there is no shame in "personal opinion/judgement". --Improv 07:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
      • The reason they don't address the article is because there were five previous AfDs. The issue had been discussed at length and every time no consensus formed to delete. And no, you didn't ask anyone to step down, but you did say they shouldn't be administrators (and the only way for that to happen is via voluntary desysopping or arbitration). Of course the issue comes down to judgement, but when many users have the same opinion on something it is called consensus. Your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's, and where there's disagreement you shouldn't take action on it alone. Trebor 16:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
        • Or, alternatively, they could come to understand what's needed to keep the project working. I'm not a big fan of removing admin bits from people - if it becomes too common, then the project will fall to rabid populism and we'll see even more use of the resources of the project by people doing unrelated things. I'm not saying I don't believe in consensus, but I have a very different understanding/definition of it than yours, and to whatever extent yours means "let people vote and give them whatever they vote on", I think that's a recipe for killing Misplaced Pages. Long-term users should be educating less long-term users, and having discussions on where the project is going and how to interpret/apply policy. This is very different than voting, and it's what's needed to keep the project healthy. Previous AfDs don't give one a blank checque to not contribute to the current one. AfD is about judgement, not voting, and people pretending that they're voting while not contributing to the discussion should be ignored. The case is clear, most of the people aiming to keep are people who have never shown a significant understanding of policy (newbies), and previous people who closed the AfDs were not doing their job (as is anyone who goes by numbers rather than argument). --Improv 19:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
      • My opinion isn't so much "let people vote and give them whatever they vote on", but I don't think that this applies in this case. You say previous AfD closers weren't doing their job because they went by numbers, not arguments, but in this case I don't believe that applies. Do you honestly think that the decision on this debate was clear-cut, that it should be deleted beyond a doubt? Because that means there are a lot of experienced editors and administrators who are seriously misunderstanding policy, which is not encouraging for the project as a whole. I think this is a judgement call. Trebor 21:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
        • You have it exactly. I believe that the decision was clear-cut, and that the project as a whole is not in a good state. What we need, I think, is a very hard push against voting and towards discussion with a strong reliance on project goals. As a thought experiment -- what would need to change about the article to make it a dictionary definition? --Improv 21:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I needed to find out what the term "Cleveland Steamer" meant. I looked at WP first. Now I know.... Knowledge isn't always pretty. Hamster Sandwich 22:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• • • • • Not a great deal, I admit, but I think it has the potential for expansion beyond that (plus I generally think it is a useful article on a topic which won't be covered in a dictionary). Can I ask you what you think of Dirty Sanchez, Teabagging and Donkey punch? Do you think they should be deleted? And if so, should you/would you delete them on sight as in Cleveland Steamer? To be honest, my concern is not so much about the merits of this specific article but the deleting of it in such an out-of-process way. You essentially speedily deleted it based on a dicdef argument, which is specifically listed as a non-criteria on WP:CSD. Under what grounds did you think that was justified? Trebor 22:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
          • I haven't looked at them, but if they're nothing more than a dicdef, then I'd delete them on sight if it became clear that Wiktionary did not want them. Very few "processes" on Misplaced Pages are hard rules - they're guidelines that, as per WP:IAR, are ignored when they lead to problem results. That naturally causes trouble/conflict when people notice (and in situations like this, people are bound to), but when people arn't so caught up in rules that they lose sight of the project, sometimes the right thing happens despite the rules and the people who are sticklers for them. Process is not sacred here, and out-of-process is not always a mark of something bad happening. I felt it was justified based on the content, the fact that we have a project specifically for that stuff, and that having talked with some representative folk for that project, they don't want it there either. Misplaced Pages is not a "rule of law" type community. It's a bit more cowboy, and involves judgement, give and take, a certain amount of oligarchy, and a lot of messiness. People who attempt to simplify it *into* rule of law generally find their stay here disappointing. --Improv 00:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
          • At this point, those first two articles are even more dicdef-y than this one. WarpstarRider 01:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
        • I agree very much with your last 2 sentences, and I think I now understand your reasoning behind your action. The problem with WP:IAR, however, is that it can be invoked in either direction (and if I recall correctly, someone used it as an argument in one of the AfDs). You could say delete it on sight per IAR, because it violates policy. I could say keep per IAR (because it's useful and not actually gonna be found in a dictionary), and don't delete on sight because that violates policy. The result? A mess. I don't think you're going to change your mind and say it's useful and should be kept anymore than I'm going to say it should be deleted - we both have our views. I would merely ask you take more care over using IAR on an obviously contentious issue (and, I suppose, state explicitly that you're using it). Trebor 01:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Arlington High School

Hi, we have noticed some issues on the Arlington High School page lately. Arlington_High_School_(LaGrange,_New_York). A user User:Nationalparks continues to blank sections out. After i issued a vandalism warning and placed the section back in, he deleted the section again. This has been an ongoing issue with this user. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgarnes2 (talk • contribs)

The place for this is Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Also, in the future please sign your posts. --Masamage 22:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Not that it has any chance there at all. Take a look at Nationalparks' edit . Most certainly not vandalism. Metros232 22:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, now that I look at it further I see you're right. This is a content dispute; take it to the article talk page and decide whether the information there is encyclopedic and verifiable. --Masamage 22:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

How do we go about handling a content dispute? Mgarnes2 22:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what Masamage said directly above you, "take it to the article talk page and decide whether the information there is encyclopedic and verifiable". Metros232 22:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I have replied to the warning on my talk page, and in talk page of the article itself. Also, I only removed it once. Other user(s) had removed it previously. And the vandalism warning had been placed in the article itself, so I removed that, as well as the paragraph that was unsourced, unverifiable, and POV. Nationalparks 00:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of revisions from Roger Needham

On November 15, Centrx attempted to remove a number of incidents of vandalism from the history of this article. Unfortunately, Centrx also deleted at least one legitimate revision of the article: the most recent version, which contained an infobox added after the article was protected. It is possible that Centrx also deleted other legitimate revisions of the article. While it was quite appropriate to remove the vandalism from the page history, I request that all legitimate revisions of this article be restored. Thank you. John254 00:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you try talking to Centrx or just putting it back in? -Patstuart 03:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Since article is currently fully protected, I cannot edit it. Furthermore, we really shouldn't have legitimate revisions of an article deleted from the page history. For this reason, it would be much better to restore the deleted legitimate version(s) of this article than to restore the infobox and to hope that nothing else is missing. John254 03:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Centrx made that mistake with me once, when I was a newbie, he reverted too far back, and a lot of good contributions were lost. But I never said anything, and it was a mistake of his, and so I can't blame him. If you never say anything to him, coming here won't help anything. -Patstuart 03:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I found where Centrx had moved the old edits, including the last version with the infobox (only admins will be able to follow those links, sorry). The infobox was the only thing that was lost. I agree that ideally, the original edit would be restored to the article's history, but since a) I made that edit originally, and have made it again, b) I didn't compose the infobox myself in the first place, but copied it from the talk page while the page was protected, and c) restoration of a single edit is, frankly, a pain in the butt, I think it's OK for the purposes of the GFDL to let this one slide. I'll drop Centrx a note to make sure he sees this discussion, though. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you could have just asked me to fix it. —Centrx→talk • 04:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Brigitte Gabriel

Anti-semitic vandal 70.50.202.164 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) vandalizing Brigitte Gabriel and posting lengthy diatribes about the evil Jews on Talk:Brigitte Gabriel. Tiresome. Please block without further ado. KazakhPol 02:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I would if I could, but I can't, so I won't; but I do agree that someone should. Tee-r011. Georgewilliamherbert 02:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry; about his people are watching the guy right now. Patstuart 03:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:CHILD

Can someone scrub the page history for User:Evan Finney, please? He identifies himself as an 11-year-old child, and he's posted a signficant amount of personal information on his user page. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 04:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it, in accordance with the WP:CHILD policy, as being too much potentially identifying information. (Antandrus (talk) 04:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I also speedy-deleted an article the kid created with basically the same information, and told him on his talk page to refrain from posting personal information about himself. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 05:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, of course, that there isn't a "WP:CHILD policy" -- it's a proposal under discussion, without consensus. Not saying it's a bad idea to remove this stuff from Misplaced Pages, but you're doing it on your own, not as a matter of policy. --FOo 05:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. But whether it's an official policy, a proposal, or just simple common sense, an 11-year-old child shouldn't be posting his full name, city of residence, school name, names of several friends, and other personal information, including a description of his house. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 06:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a reminder: Several of these "I'm very young, here's my photo and personal information" accounts cropped up recently that turned out to all be from the same IP. One theory is that someone was either doing basic trolling or looking for a perverted-justice style incident. Now back to our regularly scheduakled programming. - 152.91.9.144 05:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• However, we should also not be WP:BITEing newbies, and comments such as "We cannot allow you to post personal information about yourself" could have been worded a bit more tactfully. Perhaps we should create a template for this matter. (Radiant) 10:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Radiant. Looking back on it, I could have found a slightly gentler way to phrase that. A template would be a great idea. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 16:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, I went back and rephrased my comments on User talk:Evan Finney to be a bit more tactful. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 17:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Working on the template idea, I've hacked this up. Edits/moves to a different location/name are welcome. Thanx. 68.39.174.238 22:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

User:KDRGibby

This user was banned Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/KDRGibby

• KDRGibby (talk · contribs)
• 71.15.112.129 (talk · contribs)
• 129.120.46.164 (talk · contribs)
• Note incivil comment at
• The banned users old userpage

This concerns a banned user evading the block by returning using ips obviously at Che Guevara now moved to talk and Classical liberalism to further it's own particular pov. Please consider appropriate blocks.

--Dakota 06:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Milton Friedman

I would like to suggest to impose bans or blocks for

• Brooktwn (talk · contribs)

and his possible sockpuppets

• Jdonman (talk · contribs)
• Oranjube (talk · contribs)
• Elisamin (talk · contribs)
• Paperkitten (talk · contribs)

because of racism and vandalism at the article above (see ) Greetings ~~ Phoe _talk 09:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC) ~~

 Note: KoS blocked the last three; they are all SPA's for vandalising, so I see no problem with the request. Daniel.Bryant 09:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I blocked one, and El_C did in the other. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Aye, very nice , thanks. ~~ Phoe _talk 10:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC) ~~

repeated offensive vandalism

user NotAWeasel (talk · contribs) has repeatedly vandalised , this wikipadia namespace page, & deleted a previous warining about doing so, also continues with offensive headlines etc.. has been block 48hrs this week, appears to have no effect.  ⇒ bsnowball  10:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The user has been given a final note by Husond. His last edit was at 03:48, November 17, 2006. Leave the issue for now but if he doesn't stop the disturbing and racist behaviour that will be dealt with. Szvest → 10:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Similar accusations have been made by RunedChozo (talk · contribs). See for instance Talk:Beit Hanoun November 2006 incident. Aecis 10:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen a number of editors trying to POV that article, including an instance where they created a POV fork and tried to get the original article deleted in bad faith. They have also tried to load the article with emotional content that does not add anything to the facts. We have NPOV standards for a reason, people. Aecis, I have warned user Notaweasel about his behavior as well and asked him to calm down, but I understand how hard it is to deal with rampant POV-pushers and especially people like bsnowball, who (along with his friends) spend much time trying to deliberately bait their opposition. RunedChozo 17:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Editor keeps re-adding copy-vio material

We have an editor who keeps inserting instructional poorly written cruffly guidegames material into this article. Normally that would be a content dispute but it's also a straight cut and paste from here, therefore a copyvio. I have communicated this fact to the editor here but they do not wish to communicate. Can someone with a bit more firepower explain why we don't just cut and past other people's copyrighted material into article? --Charlesknight 13:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I gave him the very flashy {{Usrcvtext}} - if he/she readds it, maybe modify {{cv}} to include a "final warning" phrase, then if he/she does it again report to WP:AIV. Daniel.Bryant 13:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to sleep, so I'm sure a real admin will come along and deal with this if it occurs again - don't forget that you can ping the IP for 3RR as well, and you're exempt. Just keep an eye my user talk for an angry retort by the IP, too. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 13:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Lance

Dear Admins, I have recently encountered problems with User talk:Lance6968. This started with his placing a question that amounts to a personal attack on my user talk page (I had no alteraction with him for quite a while so I am unaware of might have provoked this). I reacted by warning him about personal attacks on his user talk page and he removed my note (which is his right) by calling it "vandalism" . I didn't mind the removal much as I only wanted to inform him, though I resented it to be called "vandalism" and I told him about that in another post , which he again removed as vandalism . After this prelude, he recently popped up at Host desecration and made various controversial edits. I reverted him and he reverted me back. I then explained my objections on the talk page to which he has replied with giving quotes and references (of questionable connection to his points and my objections). He also, and that is what I want to complain about, mixed in personal attacks, this time equating me with "Holocaust denial kooks." and also posting various speculation and niceties about my "superstition". I am asking the admins to put a stop to his vitriolic behaviour. Cheers, Str1977 13:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I have left him a warning. The Misplaced Pages:Personal attack intervention noticeboard is also available. Tom Harrison 14:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The anti-chuq/longhair/ScottDavis vandal

Hi...been noticing many different IP's all with the similar "Biased Moderators" vandalism. Is there a special place to report these (I've been currently reporting them immediately to Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism)? Also, just curious, what's the background behind this? Or is it just purely random? Gzkn 15:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Unhappy that his edits to a couple of articles were reverted. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive146#that guy with a grudge against Chuq and Longhair. He should be blocked on sight—if AIV wants to warn him 4 times first, point to the previous discussion. Also, most of the IP's he used turned out to be trojan-infected zombies or open proxies, so it might be useful to list them here anyway. I can run the easy checks and any that aren't obvious can be submitted to WP:OPP. Thatcher131 15:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Heare are two IPs he has used:

• 217.22.54.122 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 67.185.179.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Greetings ~~ Phoe _talk 16:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC) ~~

Impersonation of my Wiki profile

Please note that my existing userprofile: Sudharsansn is being vandalized by an impersonator who has created an id similar to that of mine.

1). The new impersonating vandal id that has been created is this: Snsudharsan whereas my real profile page is here: Sudharsansn.

2). Please note that this is not a coincidence as the vandal has left a comment in my remarks page making it appear as if I have edited this. He has also taken a picture from my website and posted it in my profile page which strictly confines it to vandalism and impersonation.

Kindly help urgently to prevent miscreants from vandalizing other pages using a profile name similar to that of mine. Sudharsansn (talk • contribs) 16:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Please look at the contributions page of the vandal/impersonator to note that he has changed only my page by which he is trying to give the impression of being the real me, and has added my photo. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Sudharsansn (talk • contribs) 16:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Just curious, is this actually your picture? If so, how do you think the vandal came by it to upload? Notinasnaid 16:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've indefblocked the impersonator. Mangojuice 16:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your prompt action. Answering Notinasnaid's question, my picture is available in my internet homepage which has been linked in my Wiki profile page. Thanks again for the prompt ::action. I greatly appreciate it. Sudharsansn (talk • contribs) 16:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

That is a relief. Thank you, it seemed that there was the risk that the impersonator had access to your personal information. Notinasnaid 17:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand the potential risk you are talking about. Thanks for your concern, I appreciate it. Sudharsansn (talk • contribs) 18:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Return of NLP sockpuppetry?

It has been some months since the mentorship has finished. Various sockpuppets have been banned for sockpuppetry Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans. When I started doing a cleanup, and fact and reference check, a new editor, popped up and quickly made a revert. This editor has made several reverts since. From the start I assumed good faith with this editor until now. This editor shared a similar POV, and has began insering disputed text from the history that had been written by the banned editors. Some of the edits and comments from AlanBarnet‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) did appear to be in good faith, however, now this appears to be a carefully planned entry of a sockpuppet to avoid the ban.

I believe an early intervention is needed to avoid a fork in the article, and to stop this user from reverting. I am trying to clean up the article and do a fact and reference check. The reverts are not making it easy. Especially when my personal belief in "revert only when necessary".

During my fact and reference check and cleanup to repair some damage done by months of sockpuppets who insert misleading statements into the article. AlanBarnet‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has reverted me several times when correcting these errors. And now states that he will revert on a daily basis claiming that my edits were biased. My personal policy is revert only when required so it is difficult to work on the article under those conditions. I have been very careful to "write for the enemy" and check the sources carefully. I have asked the editor to avoid reverting, and simply mark the disputes with "fact" or or "quote_required" tags. --Comaze 17:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a complex issue because there have been a number of editors banned on this page, and this editor could just be taken a hard nose skeptic to the article. My suspicion, however, stems from this editors "blanket revert" then edit. Also, there has been a number of sesible edits mixed with the blind importing of edits written by banned users. This were both characteristics of the banned editors, and a behaviour that led to months of circular discussion, failed mediation, failed mentorship, and bans. The banned editor had create a complex network of sockpuppets that work together to evade arbcom rulings. This editor, AlanBarnet‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be a carefully planned attempt. Either way, we'll need to continue to monitor this page and discussion. I will make edits that are entirely within policy to see if this user reverts blindly again. --Comaze 01:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The CheckUser, tenatively, found the user was unrelated to banned users and requests additional information. Also CheckUser suggested that if there is enough behavioral evidence then an incident should be posted here. I'll collect the behavioral evidence and post it here. --Comaze 08:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Help, JBKramer is vandalizing my userpage

I do not know if this is the right place, but User:JBKramer is reverting my edits and labeling me a "sock" on my Userpage. My only invovlement with him was when I thanked him on his talk page for convincing me to sign up for a Misplaced Pages account. Could someone please ask him to stop, as he reverted my request to do so on his talk page, and he reverted my page, and my edits. If this is the wrong place to ask, please point me in the right direction! Q Jenkins 17:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Above "user" has threatened my life here. I have contacted local authorities and the foundation. JBKramer 17:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked YOU indefinitely not because of sockpuppetry but because of threats and vandalism! -- Szvest → 17:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Spanish Gibraltarians

I feel that this article has been deleted wrongfully.

• No vote was made on its content or name at the time of its deletion. The vote having been made on Originary inhabitants of Gibraltar which was completely different to Spanish Gibraltarians both in name and in content.
• The article is NPOV, well sourced, provides only information which is absent on all other Gibraltar related articles and simply refers to a community of people (Gibraltarian Spaniards) explaining who they are and a bit of their history. No POV related to the Anglo-Spanish dispute on Gibraltar is even touched and thus is non-controversial. The article was deleted in with a very small number of votes and in a very short time (5 days?).
• A copy of the article is on my talk page.--Burgas00 17:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that this issue got be posted at WP:DR WP:DRV. But, Burgas and I thought it would be a good idea to inform admins that Burgas is planning to recreate the article under a diff title and NPOV. What didn't look fine at the AfD process is the duration of the discussion. It was closed after 5 votes and after only 5 days!

Anyway, i believe that after the article is freed from POV (in case there are), it can be recreated under the new title. Apart from the duration of the vote, the nature of the votes are also unfounded (most voters talked about POV -which not a valid reason to delete an article), the nomination was based on that "there exists articles on Gibraltar and Demographics of Gibraltar" is also questioble and not convincing at all as there exist people caled SPANISH GIBRALTARIANS. Any comments or feedbacks? -- Szvest → 17:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You mean WP:DRV? - Francis Tyers · 17:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, correct Francis. Thanks for the note. -- Szvest → 18:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate images in album cover pages

Copied from WP:VPA (because admin intervention is required). --ais523 17:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC) The user User:NickelodeonSlimeTime is uploading "owned.com" images to replace album cover images and then reverting them so they remain in the upload history. I have no idea what he's up to, but the images should be deleted regardless. Peter O. (Talk) 20:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Standing Violations of WP:Harassment, WP:NPA and WP:Living

On his talk page, ScienceApologist is attempting to reveal personal information regarding me in violation of WP:HARASSMENT. Over a week ago, I politely requested that this user remove the information in question, but to no avail. This user claims that (1) since he put his accusation in the form of a question, it is not really an accusation (despite its clear association of my username with a putative RL identity); (2) he has reason to make an exception to WP:HARASSMENT, namely, (that I supposedly have) a pattern of non-NPOV edits to certain Misplaced Pages articles. However, since no such pattern exists, ScienceApologist is unable to substantiate this allegation. Furthermore, in repetitive violation of WP:NPA, ScienceApologist has attempted to insert biographically irrelevant information on one particular affiliation of the Misplaced Pages bio subject to whom he accuses me of being identical, evidently as a means of dismissing or discrediting his views (this also constitutes a violation of WP:LIVING). Accordingly, I am requesting that the personal information in question be removed. If it is not, then I will regard this as exhausting the normal means of dispute resolution in such cases. (Since this user has recently drawn censure from at least two members of the Arbitration Committee, I would ask to be spared any general AGF-type rationalizations of his/her hostile behavior.) Thank you, Asmodeus 17:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• To clarify (without naming names, though the name involved is easily discovered), it has been suggested that Asmodeus is in fact a certain notable individual with a Misplaced Pages bio, who has been actively promoting theories developed by that individual on Misplaced Pages in contravention of WP:AUTO and such. SA has asked if Asmodeus is indeed this individual, claiming similarity in certain known biographical details about Asmodeus and the individual. Asmodeus--well within his rights--has refused to answer the question.--EngineerScotty 18:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• The above allegation by EngineerScotty is false. That is, I have not been "promoting the theories" of any Misplaced Pages biography subject. In the future, please try to be truthful. Asmodeus 18:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • To make it clear, "who has been actively promoting" is an antecedent of "it has been suggested that". --EngineerScotty 20:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not cross-post. This belongs at WP:PAIN and is being discussed there. FeloniousMonk 18:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's not quite accurate. Several issues are involved here, only one of them being WP:NPA. Asmodeus 18:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

As Shell noted when removing the request, Arbitration is probably required in this case. Daniel.Bryant 20:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Also recommend arbitration. It may be that an article ban is warranted, per the remedy proposed towards Elerner in the pseudoscience case now in the voting stage. But I think it is beyond the scope of this board to decide that. SA should probably avoid pursuing this issue himself any further except to file the case if he chooses. Thatcher131 22:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Unauthorized bot, again

Hoping someone has experience with this - not sure how to handle it. A school IP, 141.84.69.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), has been the source of what I'm pretty sure is an unauthorized bot. Many of its edits are rapid, repetitive, with no edit summary. Some of them are helpful but some of them are randomly adding tags to or removing tags from articles. They are also removing messages about the tagging activity: , , . I asked for an explanation, got no response, so blocked for a week. During that time, someone asked for the IP to be unblocked and we told them they could create an account. After the block expired, the bot started operating again once in a while. Is a longer block warranted on an IP address in this case? --Aguerriero (talk) 19:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree it looks like a bot and it looks like it's operating again. I blocked for another week, but should we contact the school district? I don't like the idea of a long-term block on an IP for this. --Ginkgo100 20:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I will try to contact them via e-mail. It is not a school district really, it is an immense academic computing center that appears to serve large portions of the city of Munich, Germany. --Aguerriero (talk) 20:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

TheBigDirtyBastard

I saw a piece of vandalism from TheBigDirtyBastard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and rolled it back. I then checked his contribs to see if it was a vandalism-only account, which I would have blocked indefinitely. It doesn't seem to be, but it is a fairly new account. In that case, I'd just give him a warning. However, I'm wondering should he be blocked for his username. My feeling is yes, definitely, but I think I would tend to be less tolerant of such names than other people might, and I'm not actually experienced in username blocks. I may have done one or two, but if so, they were really offensive names. As it is, I haven't even warned this user for his vandalism, because it seems a bit silly to warn someone for vandalism if I'm going to block him two minutes later regardless of any possible change in behaviour. Can someone please advise? Thanks. AnnH ♫ 19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The name doesn't offend me, but I do suggest he should be pointed to Misplaced Pages:Changing username; He seems to have made good contribs so there's always room for change rather then a block. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 19:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Jimenez again

As earlier reported, there has been miscellaneous weirdness around User:Jose(Cha-Cha)Jimenez. He (at least I presume it is he, editing anonymously) has now deleted all indications of these difficulties from his user talk page. He's also "answered" my (I think) reasonable requests at Talk:Young Lords with another self-serving statement.

I still think his user page has much of the makings of a good article about him, but not if it is going to be nothing but his ego trip, and he won't agree to let others work on it.

Again, I'm at a loss for how to deal with this. He is a figure of at least some importance, though I strongly suspect not as much importance as he claims. I'd love to get accurate articles about him, and about the Young Lords, and I'm sure that if he wanted to he could be very helpful, but he seems mainly focused on using Misplaced Pages to stake out a claim to his own vast importance. - Jmabel | Talk 19:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Smyslov

I don't know where exactly this belongs, but User:Smyslov made an extremely rude comment about recently deceased person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.4.28 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Even as it is ostensibly essayed jocularly, the comment is untoward, I suppose (and I say that not just because I had a man crush on Milton Friedman), but it doesn't seem particularly to disrupt the project, such that the best method by which to deal with it (and other similarly-styled user comments) is probably to refactor (in this case, to remove rather than to strike out) and to suggest that the user refrain in the future from offering about articles commentary irrelevant to the pursuits of the project, especially where such commentary will serve a disruptive or inflammatory purpose. In this instance, Intangible quite properly removed the entire section that focused on the sentiments of users surrounding the death of the subject rather than of the article itself; as Help:Talk page and {{talkheader}}, which serves atop talk pages to recapitulate the former, make plain, talk pages are not for for general discussion about...article subject. Joe 03:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you block DMighton?

He clearly shows bias when reporting information on Misplaced Pages. He Doens't show any sense of impartialiy. Although he makes meaningful contributions he is in this case (the GMHL Article) not acting impartially. If you could block him from this page only that would be great!"Chnb 21:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)"

• This appears to be a content dispute, which does not belong on this noticeboard. Please follow the dispute resolution procedure instead. You can start off by discussing the dispute on the talk page of the article in question. Demiurge 21:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

VaughanWatch Back Again

64.231.173.194 (talk · contribs) is clearly a sockpuppet of VaughanWatch. He's still inserting his nonsense PoV, and now threatening me (again) , I think he's at 55 socks now. An indef block and revert of his latest edit would be appreciated. -- Chabuk 19:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked by Naconkantari (we don't generally indefinitely block IPs, unless they're open proxies). --Sam Blanning 23:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Tendentious edits by User:Thiru kk

This guy has been making large edits to Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh that are POV forks of other sections of the article (already under Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh#Criticism), violating WP:BLP in his edits and refuses to discuss them.His edits are a blatant violation of WP:NPOV and WP:RS (no sources at all). His diffs are below:

His edit summary clearly shows that he is not neutral. I have raised discussion on his talk page and article talk page but he refuses to respond. He has even vandalized existing edits to push his POV.Hkelkar 21:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

He just attacked me in a very incivil manner .Hkelkar 21:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

{{agf}} for the latest tirade by Thiru kk (talk · contribs). No comment on the bigger picture. Daniel.Bryant 21:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Revert war over interwikilinks to the siberian-russian wiki

Recently a Siberian-russian wiki was started and there is currently a motion to get is closed down again .

Nevertheless it has some articles and bots are starting to add interwikilinks to articles here but they get reverted by the people, that want that wiki gone. I personally have no preference as to the existance of the wiki, but I think while it is alive it would be a violation of WP:POINT and a disription to enwiki to remove the interwikilinks. See Talk:Ingria#Ru-Sib for some of the arguments involved. The User I came accross on the Germany article doing this is Mikkalai (talk · contribs) but apparently there are more. Agathoclea 22:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Help

Hi, i've question. If i'm thinking that an admin is unilateral and not neutral, what should i do? Where should I complain about this?..--Karcha 23:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Open, informal complaints about admins can go here. Trebor 23:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing this thread is the issue in question. It's no longer "unilateral" as I agree with InShaneee. --Ginkgo100 23:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Who is inshanee, how do you know that i'll complain inshanee? i didn't say a name about this? Who are you?--Karcha 23:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

All communications on Misplaced Pages can be seen by anyone. There are notes on your Talk page from InShaneee, and notes on InShaneee's Talk page from you. Fan-1967 23:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I know, it can be seen. However i didn't give a name here. I could give a different name. Who is Ginkgo100? --Karcha 23:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you click on my name at the end of this sentence, you'll see my user page, which will tell you a bit about who I am. --Ginkgo100 01:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you could... But please do not waste our time! /wangi 23:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i have a complaint about user InShaneee he/she always acts unilateral about me and turkic related articles. Turkic related articles are sabotaging by iranians. InShaneee don't see iranian's personal attacks, he only sees me. Please look his actions in the last 4 hour. When i posted my complaints about them he warns me urgently. Please have a look; Aren't these personal attacks? Why doesn't he ban him?

This was deleted, i wonder why?

As soon as Korshid joined Misplaced Pages in May 2006, s/he launched into edit wars accusing anyone who disagreed with him/her - even mildly - of racism, while making claims regarding others' ethnicity: , etc. Yet, this user has not once received a warning or a block over his/her behaviour. Is this constructive to Misplaced Pages? Isn't it time to deal with this kind of disruptive activity?--Karcha 23:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Tu quoque isn't a defence on Misplaced Pages for making personal attacks. "There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Please do not make them" (emphasis in original, WP:NPA). Daniel.Bryant 23:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Fact Finder

Fact Finder (talk · contribs) is doing some weird things, like attempting to continue discussion on an archived page (Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2006 October 22) which isn't intended for use for ongoing discussion, and also is making what borders on personal attacks on me (accusing me falsely of deleting his comments and lying about being a member of Mensa). *Dan T.* 00:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is he still allowed to edit? I've not seen him do anything productive, he appears to be here purely to spam his company. --Sam Blanning 00:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Devout Christian

Same MO as indef-blocked Devout Christian (talk · contribs) posting from 83.14.195.250 (talk · contribs) and 212.51.199.173 (talk · contribs). Apparently he has moved to Poland. Please block STAT. --Ideogram 00:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Both blocked. --Sam Blanning 00:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I blocked them for 24 hours, but on second look the IPs seem pretty static. If they continue after the blocks expire we can consider a longer block - or we can consider it now, in fact, I don't really mind if someone else decides to lengthen my blocks. --Sam Blanning 00:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This is very strange. If you look at the talk pages for these two IPs, you will see that Devout Christian is apparently being stalked by someone at IPs 70.52.75.25, 70.52.64.186, 70.52.64.194, 70.52.73.244, 70.52.73.108, and 70.52.75.213. Is there anything we should do about this? Is there anything we can do about this? --Ideogram 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry by E104421

I ran a CheckUser on Karcha (talk · contribs) on request, since this ostensibly new user has gotten right in the middle of edit wars and existing conflicts from the beginning, and is obviously not new. It is very likely that Karcha, who has been used for reverting to E104421's revision frequently, is the same user as him based on both the IP evidence, and the editing pattern. Dmcdevit·t 01:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I reported the sock/main 3RR's to WP:AN3, and strongly urge the admins to block the sock indef - only intention was to avoid 3RR. Daniel.Bryant 02:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The sock has been blocked indef, and I've extended the block on the main (which was already blocked for a 3RR violation) to 6 days. Any admin is welcome to change that duration (longer or shorter) at their discretion. -- Steel 02:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted all of the sock's edits and crossed-out his votes at AfDs & TfDs as well. Khoikhoi 02:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've received an email from E104421 insisting that he's not a sockpuppeteer. He says he mainly edits from his office but sometimes from a guesthouse (which I assume is public). I'm not sure what people want to make of this. -- Steel 02:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

E104421 and Karcha both edit exclusively from the same university IP range. Dmcdevit·t 02:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Steel: Sure we haven't heard that one before... Daniel.Bryant 06:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Gimme an hour or so to investigate their edits further. From what I saw during the last days, I had the impression the contents and profile of their edits was sufficiently dissimilar that I wouldn't have supposed sockpuppetry. In particular, Karcha had some particular issues that didn't seem to be shared by E. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Having looked into their contributions a bit more, let me express some doubts:

• IP addresses/checkuser: In his e-mail, E declares that his main IP is a stable non-shared address at his workplace, while others he's used are from a public pool. Dmcdevit, could you perhaps check if that stable IP has also been shared by Karcha? (I'll forward you the IP from E's e-mail).

• Temporal patterns: E and K have sometimes been editing simultaneously, in ways that only a very skilled sockpuppeteer could fake. For instance, 17 Nov, 10:16-10:17: 3 edits by K (, , ), one simultaneous edit on an entirely unrelated topic by E (), all of them substantial. 16 Nov, 21:34-21:42 two edits each by K (, ) and E (, ), alternating with only a minute in between.

• Language: While both accounts are clearly not native speakers of English, K's English seems substantially poorer than E's.

• Editing interests: K has a bee in his bonnet about removing historical Ottoman spellings of Turkish names. E does not seem to share this obsession. Examples:
  • On Khwarezmian Empire (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): Karcha insisting on removing the Ottoman spelling: , ; no such interest by E: , ,
  • Similar on Mughal Empire (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): K ; E ,
  • On Ak Koyunlu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): Karcha removing Ottoman name , E shortly later reverting to Khoikhoi's version (with the name), not Karcha's
  • On Hephthalite (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): Karcha rewriting , , , E shortly later reverting to a different, pre-Karcha version:

What do you guys say? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

User talk:72.199.253.207

Harsh Response by User talk:72.199.253.207 after i've warned him for POV vandalism --JForget 02:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This kind of vandalism would go to WP:AIV. I've given him another warning; this IP appears to only be trouble though; report to aiv if any more problems. -Patstuart 02:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry at AfD

The following users are confirmed by CheckUser to be sockpuppets used by Ivygohnair (talk · contribs) for multiple votes at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ivy Goh Nair and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of famous Nairs (3rd nomination):

• Chandrannair (talk · contribs)
• Justice4us (talk · contribs)
• 81.249.80.83 (talk · contribs)
• 83.204.202.150 (talk · contribs)

I would appreciate if some admins could look at this. The AfD should probably be re-run. See also other sockpuppetry involving users at this and other related AfDs at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive147#Sockpuppetry at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion.2FList of famous Jats. Dmcdevit·t 04:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've indef. blocked Chandrannair and Justice4us, and blocked Ivygohnair for 3 days. Khoikhoi 04:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The "Quebec Vandal"

Ok, this is just getting to be enough here. The guy has used 51 sockpuppets now on a regular basis. Multiple checkusers have been done and the latest one has found that it's a dynamic IP. The latest vandal was User:134.173.56.219, which according to one of Essjay's tools belongs to Claremont Colleges in California. It follows the regular pattern displayed by these users. So, can I propose some kind of community ban of IP's or something? I know we're the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but this is just getting ridicules. It's not just this guy either. Quebec is regularly vandalized, some IP's showing up in the midwest, some on either coast. One was an open proxy (reported to WP:OP). Is there really anything that we can do here, short of protecting the article for all time? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 04:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

134.173.56.219 doesn't appear to have made any "unconstructive edits" to Quebec lately - his/her most recent edit to that article was to revert vandalism. BTW, 134.173.56.219 is not a dynamically assigned address; it's a statically assigned address in the 134.173.56.0/21 HMC student range. It's probably a student editing from their desktop computer; an open proxy is highly unlikely. - A Concerned Mudder

Violation of good faith by user Shamir1

Palestinian Exodus is the scene of a long-running content dispute (but that's not what this complaint is about). Admin User:Steel359 protected the article on Nov 12 for this reason. However, User:Shamir1, one of the main warring parties, was unhappy about which version was protected so on Nov 18 he claimed on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection that the dispute was over. Since the argument was continuing ferociously on the Talk page, with Shamir1 involved, this claim was a deliberate lie in order to trick someone into unprotecting the article. And in fact Steel359 unprotected the article in good faith, only to be forced to protect it again soon afterwards. I respectfully request action against Shamir1 for this dishonest behavior. --Zero 05:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the history, User:Shamir1 has not edited the article since November 11. Do you have the wrong user there? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 05:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The article had been protected since Nov 12 except for the brief unprotection on Nov 18 that I mentioned, that's why he didn't edit it. Look on the talk page to see his continued involvement in the dispute (8 edits since Nov 12). --Zero

I think what Zero is saying is that he had the intent of doing so, and ought to have action taken against him. An attempted crime is almost as bad as a crime itself. -Patstuart 07:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"deliberate lie in order to trick someone into unprotecting the article" is a crime. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 07:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Note:User:Isarig did similar thing to Neo-Fascism. he requested unprotection, deleted the section in dispute, and then had his version protected. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 08:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism-only accounts

• Resident1fan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Continuous vandalism to Resident Evil 5. Has been given final warning. -- moe.RON 04:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Prof Bukksksdf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) vandalism-only account. John254 04:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: These reports were removed from WP:AIV by Tariqabjotu. Though it is a common practice to block vandalism-only accounts even if they haven't received final warnings or haven't edited quite recently, I am making a report here to avoid an edit war on WP:AIV. John254 05:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked both indefinetly. Still think this a WP:AIV matter Alex Bakharev 08:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Unjust block

Despite my efforts to dialogate with User:Thulean and try to be constructive with the infamous disputed article White people (see talk page and mediation page, and despite having only one single warning (and a totally clean historial before this awful conflict), I have been blocked by administrator User:Shell Kinney on very unclear grounds.

She wrote (sounds very emphatic but there are no grounds):

You've been asked multiple times by many people to stop being incivil, stop attacking other editors and especially to stop harassing Thulean. Unfortunately you've now continued this both in the mediation and on my talk page. I've given you a short block - please stop the behavior and try to approach the mediation in a civil manner - without attacking and belittling other editors whom you disagree with. Shell babelfish 20:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell (there's no PAIN case, no diffs, no nothing) she could have been decided that I was making a persona attack on the following items (all based on what is written in her talk page)

1. My comment inside a large discussion (almost unilateral teaching by my side) on European genetics (as per the diff provided by Thulean in Shell's talk page) that read:

Aditionally, I think you should check this map, from a previously sourced paper, where it does make a rather conclusive division between Neolithic (Near Eastern) and Paleolithic (Basque) ancestry. It's probably better than going around Cavalli-Sforza's maps, as it is a much more modern paper.

You want to play with geneaologies... like the Jewish skinhead of the BBC article, you may get burnt. --Sugaar 02:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

2. My attempt of protest at his abuse on this kind of accusations that read:

LOL - that's not an attack. I'm just saying that you really have no clear idea of where your ancestors may ultimately be from (and this is only in realtion with European genetics, a discussion on which you have shown very poor understanding).

Stop whinning for everything (this might be a PA, who knows?). --Sugaar 13:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC) (diff)

So where is the personal attack? I wonder. There's no such thing anywhere.

I am a little angry and sarcastic, maybe. But there's not a single personal attack in all those sentences (nor in anything I've written in a good while).

There are also no such repeated warnings that Shell talks about. I just have only one warning from Shell herself and surely two dozens of pseudo-warnings (harassment) by Thulean. Nobody else has said anything about my behaviour, much less in a formal manner.

The first comment must be contextualized in a longer debate between Thulean and I on European genetics (Talk:White people#Just for the record), where Thulean made also despective comments like:

• LOL. By your "logic", the "European genome" is found mostly in Saudi Arabia...I dont want to dignify your other claims with more responses but I suggest you to read about this subject before making absurd claims.
• What part of this can't you get into your head?

And I was patiently replying in length, providing sources and all that can be done to reach an understanding, exposing carefully my understanding (based in many genetic studies) that European and West Asian genomes are strongly linked and that is dificult to find what is specifically European if anything...

He just made those short disdainful claims, no sources, no ideas... but specially no constructive attitude at all.

And then I bring up another source that suggests that Scandinavians are 50% West Asians and make that comment about playing with genealogies and the next I know is that he's writing to Shell to complain.

I protest and what do I get? A block.

...

I request:

1. To find out wether any of those comments actually constitutes a PA and why. I just don't see it. I was trying to be pedagogical and hoping he might learn something of all this mess.

2. If nothing is found that the block is reverted retroactively, just for the record.

3. To recuse permanently Shell Kinney from any future case that I may be accused of. At this point I have not the slightest trust in her ability or neutrality and I am doubting seriously of her good will.

...

Additionally I have disconnected myself from the White people article, discussion and mediation. This has crossed all red lines and I just can't bear this anymore. The article is a collective responsability of Misplaced Pages (that means in abstract: all wikipedians) and I have done much more than my share, getting as reward only an unbearable witch-hunt and some scars that will take some time to heal.

And I am not the only one, I believe. This one-sideness of Shell Kinney is causing problems to all wikipedians of good will, as far as I can see. Soon that article will have only one editor and that one will be Thulean (and maybe ideologically akin Dark Tichondrias too). I have done what I could but I can't keep that push if the Wikibureaucracy, impersonated as Shell Kinney, is so hostile against me and other veteran serious editors. --Sugaar 07:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that this kind of complaint is better suited at request for comment. Daniel.Bryant 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've edited slightly so you can see better where the request is. The first part is basically explainatory for unaware admins to understand what happened (as far as I can understand it myself) --Sugaar 08:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Sugaar, on first inspection of your pages, the mediation, and Shell's talk page, Shell is right that you have been crossing the line into personal attacks. You seem to be extremely resistant to hearing that, but please listen: it's not ok to attack people on Misplaced Pages. What you're doing is beyond the limits of what the community feels are ok. The things that the people you're arguing with are doing aren't going across the line. Please, calm down, and listen to people in the mediation and elsewhere. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 07:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Where is the PA? I am not attacking anyone, at least not since the warning.

And I'm not getting again in that rat-trap of White people article. I fell in that by accident and is not my area of interest. If it is of your interest, you can join the discussion and the mediation yourself and feel in first person how it is like. --Sugaar 07:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think there's no PA anywhere. But more important: there are not the many warnings that Shell claims. I have just one warning and, as far as I can tell, I have not just not repeated the error but also tried to be as constructive as possible (with no results but disdainful comments and this unjustified block).

Block is according to WP:NPA a measure against extreme cases:

In extreme cases, an attacker may be blocked under the "disruption" clause of the blocking policy, though the practice is almost always controversial.

Obviously there's no such grounds in this case and all the procedure is highly irregular and unclear.

I am also worried about ALWAYS being judged by the same administrator and precisely by the one who seems most heavily biased against me. I hope not to get involved in any more PAIN cases now that I have detached myself from the conflictive article but you never know and, just in case, I request that the next time the administrator judging my hypothetical case is someone different. I think it's a very reasonable request. --Sugaar 08:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

E104421 blocked for 24 hours for edit warring of Ak Koyunlu

19:22, 17 November 2006 Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked E104421 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with an expiry time of 24 hours (edit warring on Ak Koyunlu) 02:12, 18 November 2006 Steel359 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked "E104421 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)" with an expiry time of 6 days (Edit warring and sockpuppetry) Could anyone review this please? Myrtone (☏) 07:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Sockpuppetry by E104421. I'm guessing you got the email, too. Daniel.Bryant 07:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards