Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:52, 19 November 2006

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Egyptian religion

I believe we should move this to the African Traditional Religion section. Achillobator

• Oppose - the religion in Ancient Egypt and religion in Carthage were culturally distinct from African Traditional Religion. Addhoc 14:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose as well. Agree with Addhoc. -- Jeff3000 15:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose of course. Per Addhoc, Egyptian religion was quite distinct from African Traditional Religion, but much more related to and had more interaction with Near Eastern religion, and probably even more related to ancient Greek religion (which was itself influenced by Egyptian beliefs). This is little more than an attempt to introduce an afrocentric POV into the article. Egyegy 17:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• RE: Egyptian religion supposedly being different from "African Traditional Religion"; there are many affinities between Egyptian religion and some religions elsewhere in Africa. One example is that both the ancient Egyptians and some Africans considered the pharaoh a god, as opposed to a priest like the ancient Mesopotamian kings. Secondly, the pharaoh had a rainmaker-like role as in some African religions, except it was the flood rather than the rain that he had control over. Finally, the religion of the ancient Sudanese to the south of Egypt was practically identical to that of the Egyptians! There are probably plenty of other parallels between Egyptian and various African religions, but space only permits a few. Besides, African religions are hardly homogeneous, and some probably differ as much from others as any of them do to religions in west Asia. While common themes occur between some African religions, the main uniting element of Africa's large number traditional religions is, of course, the fact that they originated in Africa. Since Egyptian religion is undeniably of African origin, in my opinion, it must be listed as an African religion, disregarding what some northern Egyptian most likely raised with a medieval-era anti-black stigma thinks.

Removal of repeated religions

Also, I have made some minor edits, removing duplication. I am fairly confident that ISKCON (Hare Krishna) should be considered a Dharmic faith. Also usually considered Dharmic are Vedanta and Bhakti Yoga. Similarly, Pentecostalism is usually regarded as a recognised Christian denomination. I consider Jewish Buddhism to be a form of Buddhism, but not Judaism. Also, I think Falun Gong is best described as a Chinese NRM, because it's base on qigong practice, however I accept other descriptions would be plausible. Similarly, I think Aum Shinrikyo is best describe as a Japenese NRM, again other descriptions could possibly be more appropriate. Also the Unification Church is best considered a Christian NRM and Juche a non-religious movement. Sufism is usually considered part of Islam, while Theosophy is considered part of the western magical tradition. Finally, Gnosticism and Hemereticism are probably best described as revealed religions instead of esoteric or mystical beliefs. If there was an overwhelmingly good reason for all of these duplications, then I'll reinstate them. 80.189.68.138 12:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

List of Religions, not Generic Terms for Religious Practice

Would anyone object if the following were deleted because they are not religions, but generic terms for practice:

Astrology

Exorcism

Faith Healing

Meditation

Miracles

Prayer

Prophecy

Sacrifice (inc. Animal/Human)

Spirituality (Not Spiritualism, which is a religion)

Worship

80.189.225.243 19:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, go ahead and remove them. -- Jeff3000 01:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Other New Religious Movements

There are other NRMs listed in other wiki articles that I am beginning to include, if there are no objections. 80.189.196.205 14:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

In doing so, I have slightly expanded and reorganised the Christian and Buddhist sections. Again, if there was an overwhelmingly good reason for the previous system, then obviously I'll revert. 80.189.193.201 15:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Matrixism: the path of the One

Matrixism is included in the following books about religious movements:

"Religion and Popular Culture: A Hyper-Real Testament" Dr. Adam Possamai, Peter Lang Publishing Group 2005 ISBN 90-5201-272-5 / US-ISBN 0-8204-6634-4 pb.

"The Joy of Sects" Sam Jordison Publisher: Robson Books Publication Date: 7 November 2005 ISBN 1861059051

"In Search of New Age Spiritualities" Adam Possamai, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. 2005 ISBN 0754652130

Matrixism has also been mention in many newspaper articles and is listed on the course syllabi for various university courses on religious studies. This is a very much more than can be said for many of the religions on Misplaced Pages's "List of Religions". See for examples the content and references for McMahonism and Church of the Universe. 71.139.66.105 18:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Matrixism has been deleted twice, as recently as of May 20th 2006. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Matrixism Since it is not significant enough to be a Misplaced Pages article, it is not significant enough to be on this page. The first step is to get the article to not be deleted based on verifiable information, and then it can be included here. -- Jeff3000 19:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

That is verifiable information. In fact if you were to do a Google book search for "matrixism" you would find the latter of the three books listed above. There you can access the book's index and verify that Matrixism is discussed on page 120. While Matrixism does not have a Misplaced Pages article, and the reasons for this are debatable, it does have a re-direct to the Misplaced Pages page on The Matrix where its website can be accessed.71.139.66.105 19:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability is not the only thing that allows for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Notability is also important, and as noted in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Matrixism, Matrixism is not notable enough. The article on The Matrix makes no mention of Matrixism, except the same spam link is included. -- Jeff3000 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

How do you define notability other than something is verifiably noted? Matrixism is notable enough to be included in books, newspapers and in college courses on religion. In what other way should it be notable? 71.139.66.105 20:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's put it this way: the first result on a Google search is a Geocities personal webpage. If you can provide links to websites to establish the notability of Matrixism (say, New York Times articles, and such), you're welcome to. At the moment, I'm very doubtful of the notability. It's not that I hate you, I'm sure you enjoy yourself and I wish you nothing but the best; at the same time, however, if we list every last bit of information on every subject, Misplaced Pages becomes unreadable -- thus, Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and thus notability is a concern. Hope that makes sense. Happy to discuss further, if you have new points. Luna Santin 20:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times is hardly the measure of notability. If it were many of the religions on the "list of Religions" would not be there. As for Matrixism's website being a personal site. That is a huge assumption on your part. It is a Geocities website without adds. That means that it is paid for and hosted just like any other URL. Three books and references in the Sydney Morning Herald and the British newspaper The Sun is very much notable. This is especially true when this standard is applied to the other religions listed on Misplaced Pages. 69.226.105.161 00:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If Matrixism is notable, why has it been deleted twice as being non-notable. You have not made the case. You have evaded your block by using another IP, and I have reported you to an administrator. -- Jeff3000 00:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Clearly I have demonstrated that Matrixism is indeed notable or you would not use this argument. I believe the invalid reasons that the article on Matrixism have been deleted previously are three:

1. Matrixism involves the use of what are considered illicit substances.

2. The URL that Matrixism uses is Geocities.

3. Christians, Baha'is and others have a vested interest in keeping Matrixism down.

69.226.105.161 00:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I offered the NYT as an easy example, not as a concrete standard. If other items should be removed from the list, out of notability concerns, we'll take care of that. For the time being, we need to be convinced that Matrixism is notable. I was unable to find any evidence of The Sun mentioning Matrixism. A search of the archives, going back five years, under the term "matrixism," turned up zero results. Please provide a link or links to reliable, independent sources, so that we can verify one or more of your claims. Luna Santin 05:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The article noting Matrixism can be seen on The Sun's website at: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,5-2005590116,00.html. The article in the Sydney Morning Herald can be seen on their website at: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Theyre-all-god-movies/2005/05/18/1116361618786.html. 69.225.13.17 18:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I can likewise confirm that a NewsBank (world/UK) newspaper archive search finds no reference to Matrixism in The Sun or anywhere else. Furthermore, we're being misled over the book references: these refer to a different matrixism, a mystical/subatomic concept coined by Jean Charon in the 1970s, and nothing to do with the movie. Tearlach 15:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have read all of the books referenced above that concern Matrixism. In each one they are specifically talking about the Matrixism whose website is: http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069. The books even go so far as to refer to this website by its url. I am glad that you have gone out of your way to tell a bold faced lie such as this. It proves my point that people are using unjust, untruthful and invalid tactics to keep Matrixism out of Misplaced Pages. 69.225.13.17 18:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The intersect between notable subjects and subjects with official sites on Geocities is the null set. HTH. Just zis Guy you know? 16:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL ^_^ Kasreyn 21:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but you have not made any valid notability arguments. Please show me one. Indeed you have violated your blocked, went past 3RR multiple times, and not assumed good faith. I am trying to uphold Misplaced Pages policy, and you are going againt it, even by not accepting that the external link should not be in the page. -- Jeff3000 01:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I responded to the rebuttals made above and have factually proved them wrong. The fact that people have misrepresented the truth in this regard bolsters my argument by showing that people have indeed been using unfair and invalid tactics to keep Matrixism out of wikipedia. 69.225.13.17 19:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. No valid notability arguments. The link is spam and should be reverted as such, as many times as are necessary until all the vandal's IP's have been blocked. Kasreyn 01:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see responses to the false arguments that were presented above. I expect of course that Jeff will not change his mind because he is a Baha'i and has a vested interest in squelching Matrixism. 69.225.13.17 18:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I had already read your responses when I posted my comment, and found them insufficient. Claiming bias in other editors is an example of an ad hominem remark, which is forbidden under WP:NPA because such remarks disrupt civil debate and serve no useful purpose. Please stick to making your points in a civil way, and refrain from further commentary on your speculations about other editors' motives. Thanks, Kasreyn 20:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have left a welcome message and a link to User:Lar/linkspam (with an explanation) on User talk:69.226.105.161. Hopefully that will help somewhat in explaining the issues here. KillerChihuahua 14:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, you have not provided any notability reasons for inclusion, and secondly you have constantly went against Misplaced Pages policy by including the External Link, in addition to going against 3RR and block-evading policies. -- Jeff3000 19:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Jeff you are turning a blind eye to an obvious amount of significant evidence. One can only assume that your extreme bias is because you are a follower of the Baha'i Faith and thus dispise Matrixism so much that you cannot consider it objectively. Perhaps you consider removing yourself from this discussion due to your bias. 69.225.13.17 19:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Another Misplaced Pages policy is Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Please refrain from attacking me. My faith has no bias on these pages, and others can specifically note that. Matrixism has nothing to do with the Faith, and I don't despise it, and I really don't care about it it any way or form; everyone is free to practice what and who they wish. The only thing I am concerned on these pages is following Misplaced Pages policy, which includes notability, and you have refrained in multiple ways of abiding by Misplaced Pages policy. That's all I can say, look at my actions, and look at yours. -- Jeff3000 19:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't an attack it was more a statement of what I consider to be an apparent fact. You say that Matrixism has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith but you have previously argued at length to the contrary. Also you tried making a link from the List of Religions to a Misplaced Pages stub that you started called Matrixism(entheogenic). It seems that you are grasping at whatever tactic you think could squelch Matrixism here. I am sure that this is a serious violation of Misplaced Pages policy.69.225.13.17 20:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please show me where I have argued that Matrixism has something to do with the Baha'i Faith. In fact, I have stated that does not have anything to do with it, as you can check in the archives. Regardless what you think is an apparent fact, you have no right to libel me with what you think; that is Misplaced Pages poliy. And yes I moved the current link to the Geocities site to another Misplaced Pages site, because that is Misplaced Pages policy regarding External Links. I would ask you to read WP:EL to refresh yourself on that policy. My actions have been to uphold Misplaced Pages policy, and yours so far have not. I have reported your 5RR to the administrators. -- Jeff3000 20:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

That would have been legitimate were there not already a re-direct for "Matrixism". Making "Matrixism (entheogenic)" seems to be a deliberate abuse. And again I don't agree that I am slandering you. That would consist of name calling and the like. I am merely pointing out that you may be biased in this argument as a Baha'i. That is a legitimate point for debate. Further I don't think that it is enough for you to just say "you have failed to show notability". I believe that you need to show why all of what I presented is not notable. 69.225.13.17 21:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have read the above discussions and I am still perplexed. Why is this even being discussed? Matrixism (the fact that a word is created to describe something that does not exist is enough to give pause) does not exist except in the minds a few, obviously deluded, people. A religion? By what definition is it a religion? At best we could have a vanity article, but I don't think those who think it really is a valid topic would be pleased. I am certain that I could add some information about how movies create "religions" in weak minds. This is fantasy gone badly astray; what is worse is that we have citizens who want to argue the "rightness" of their case. "I watched a movie and there really is a 'one'"; can you really say that with a straight face? Does your mother know you what you are doing? I gest, truly, but I think we need a reality check here.

Thank you, Jeff, for being attentive to this article and for being willing to continue to say no. My patience would have been completely expended some time ago. Storm Rider 21:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

How do you demonstrate that something is notable besides that it is noted in books, newspapers and the like? I do not think that there is another way. Since it has been shown that Matrixism is noted in various publication to simply say I don't it has been shown to be notable is not much of an argument. Why are the references that have been provided not enough? Again this is much more notability than is shown for many of the religions listed on Misplaced Pages. It seems well above any reasonable threshold. Three books, two newspaper articles and a university course syllabus and those are only the ones that are readily verifiable. 69.239.22.48 02:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

See WP:RS for more information. I believe the threshold is quite reasonable, and that "Matrixism" has a long way to go to meet it. Kasreyn 02:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you look at the sources referenced? They are all reliable sources printed by reliable publishers. In what way are they not reliable sources? 69.239.31.252 05:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

For one thing, two of your books are by the same guy, so those don't represent differing viewpoints. The Sun is a tabloid - not reliable. Your other website merely cites the author of the books, so it is not an additional source. So by my count your six "sources" are really three - books by two guys and a geocities website. Geocities is also generally not considered a particularly reliable source, last time I checked. It appears very likely that the book "Joy of Sects" is merely referencing either the geocities site or the two other books by the same guy. In short, you've got plenty o' nothin'. Please read up on WP:NOTABILITY some more and come back when you have something more than some guy's hobby attempt to claim his recreational drug use is a sacrament. ¬_¬ Kasreyn 06:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Your characterization of The Sun is just your POV. In many people's estimation The Sun is right on par with the USA Today or the Washington Post. Also you make quite a lot of assumptions to create your theory of a swirling file of information. I doubt highly that you apply the same over-reaching skepticism to any of the other religions listed here. Again to use Church of the Universe and McMahonism as examples; The Church of the Universe lists as its only references a mysterious scrapbook and an even more mysterious pamphlet. Would you say that these are more reliable than what is written about Matrixism? McMahonism provides no verifiable references whatsoever. You may not like Matrixism because it involves the use of psychedelics but that is not a reason to change the standards used to create this list. 69.225.13.101 13:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Good points. As soon as we've settled the Matrixism debate, I'll get down to business on deleting McMahonism and Church of the Universe. Note that I am not a longtime editor at this list page, so I was unaware that those two (and possibly other) religions were also not notable. My interest was only attracted to this page when I heard that a revert war was in progress. Kasreyn 21:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Struck out McMahonism. Clearly marked as a Parody religion. Kasreyn 01:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The characterization of The Sun is not just my POV, but also the consensus of the editors at The Sun (newspaper). Kasreyn 21:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You might not like the opinions expressed by The Sun you might not care for its readership but The Sun has the "highest circulation of any daily English-language newspaper in the world." 68.127.234.26 18:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Matrixism has been deleted twice as non-notable. Even the redirect to New Religious Movements was deleted (see Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_deletion/Precedents/Deleted#Matrixism). The people involved in those discussions, are not involved here and vice-versa. The consensus in all those discussions and in this discussion is that Matrixism is non-notable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, and consensus is one of the most parts of Misplaced Pages. This page is a list of religions who all have Misplaced Pages articles. Secondly, none of them have an external link to any website. Why should Matrixism be different? In Misplaced Pages, internal links are always prefered to External links (see WP:EL) and you were not even happy with Matrixism inclusion without the external links. Your behaviour on this and other pages has even appeared on Misplaced Pages's most vandalized pages.

If you feel strongly, that we are wrong, and I'm sure you feel that way, the best way to go about it, instead of continued linkspamming as you've currently done, bypassing Misplaced Pages's WP:3RR policy, is to use Misplaced Pages' methods that allow greivances to be heard.

Given that if the Matrixism Misplaced Pages page is created, you can then make as many internal links in other pages, and argue with it's inclusions in other pages, I suggest you try to first create/recreate the Matrixism page. At this point in the resolution process, I think you should start with mediation, which can then lead to arbitration. I hope this information helps, and you will start working within Misplaced Pages policies, guidlines, and processes instead of continuely reverting to your version of the article. -- Jeff3000 15:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there has been consensus. I do not however agree that this has been fair. Valid points have been brushed aside one after the other. You're right one could say that thank goodness Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and continue on with the process. That being said I think that I will wait until there are even more verifiable scholarly references to Matrixism. I am interested to see just how blind to facts people will allow themselves to be just to protect their shakey world views. 68.127.236.71 18:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

This Matrixism business is just a well known vandal with a Geocities page trying to mess with us. I don't suggest taking him seriously. — Philwelch t 00:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi User:69.239.31.252, could you comment on the criteria for this article, which include: "As there are countless small religions, many of which cannot be verified to be real or legitimate, only those religions with Misplaced Pages articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable." Personally, I consider this to be reasonably fair, however I fully agree that in due course Matrixism could have further media attention and be relisted. For example, Digitalism has (probably) survived a deletion vote, largely because of a single "Wired" article. As Jeff has discovered, I have given Matrixism a link at Religion and the internet, any chance I could encourage you to argue your case? 80.189.197.184 14:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Digitalism isn't out of the woods yet, largely because it's a neologism that was apparently coined by the author of the "Wired" article, and no two google search results can agree on what it means.

I'll echo the concerns of those that are saying the focus should be on getting the Matrixism article to survive deletion proposals before listing it here. Given that this seems to be the crusade of a single user, I'll also stress that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox.--Rosicrucian 23:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

For the record Matrixism is not my website and I am not a "Matrixist". I have been drawn into this argument because I have witnessed Matrixism receiving unfair treatment on Misplaced Pages. It seems that this religion is being held to a standard that is not applied to other religions here. Standing up to this ugly double standard is really my only motivation. I am far from the only person to have advocated to correct this.71.133.168.221 18:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Matrixism is being held to a fair standard. If you feel other "religions" are being held to a less strict standard, then work on making the case for their deletion.--Rosicrucian 17:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at and . Addhoc 10:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

A student newspaper (not a reliable source) and a quote that Matrixism is "a so-called movie-based religion that claims 300 adherents". Thanks, that makes a powerful case against inclusion. Just zis Guy you know? 11:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No, a university quoting a recognised expert and this being picked up by a reasonable newspaper. Also, I am not saying that Matrixism should be included in this list, because the first requirement is to have an article. Addhoc 11:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC) (formerly 80.189.???)

What you just wrote Mr. "Just zis" doesn't make any logical sense. I disagree with you Addhoc. I do not see it a Misplaced Pages requirement that Matrixism should have an article before being included on this list. If it is a requirement please show me where it is stated in Misplaced Pages policy. 68.127.234.26 18:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, in my opinion, the approach of requiring entries to have their own article is sensible, not least because it avoids duplicating arguments. Clearly, this only a view that has been developed by editors, not a formal policy. Addhoc 18:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks like notable religion to me. 86.136.168.167 18:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Chinese Catholicism

I have moved the Chinese Catholic association to Christian NRMs, which is possibly incorrect, for example they have a reasonably large following. Any suggestions on how Non-Roman Catholics could be listed? 80.189.2.155 18:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have listed the individual groups under "Catholics having broken communion with Rome", to see if this approach is any better. Addhoc 14:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC) (formerly 80.189.??)

Messianic Judaism

Since it is so disputed as to whether or not it is Christianity or Judaism, should it not fall strictly under "Abrahamic"? Because while Jews insist Messianic Believers are not Jewish, Messianic Believers insist they are not Christians. If it were alone, then neither group would have any qualms about it (save maybe the name of the group itself, which is another matter). Rivka 20:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that with you that they should be separated into their own group. I mean, the only argument that makes them Christians is their belief in Jesus but since believers of Gnosticism, Babi, and even Islam believe in Jesus up to some degree, maybe it should also apply to them.--23prootie 07:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

I don't agree with recent reorganisation of this list which places Baha'i Faith at the start and Babi at the end, which isn't very helpful. I don't see why there has to be this distinction. In the Major world religions article the Baha'i Faith is mentioned and the Babi faith isn't, which is appropriate. However, in this article, placing religions out of alphabetical sequence for unexplained arbitrary reasons isn't appropriate. Addhoc 19:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I would go to the organization before today's edits, as those extra super-classifications are not really needed. Plus instead of alphabetical, maybe it should be more cronological, (i.e. Judaism first in the Abrahamic religion section). -- Jeff3000 20:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Rabbinic Judaism

The opposite of Rabbinic Judaism is Karaite Judaism. Reform Judaism is rabbinic. Reform Judaism was started by rabbis and reform Judaism still has rabbis. Reform Jews study halakha; although it is not binding, it is still a feature of the religion. The opinion that Reform Judaism is not rabbinic is a very small minority opinion which is not to be found outside the orthodox/conservative world and it does not constitute a normative categorization appropriate for wikipedia. Zargulon 14:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

See above. Zargulon 22:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Karaite Judaism is NOT the opposite of Rabbinic Judaism. Karaite Judaism is the rejection of the Oral Law. Reform Judaism rejects all Jewish law and is not even considered Judaism by Orthodox Jews, as it has a vastly different theological basis. The last time we went through this squabble we threw out the "Rabbinic" category since it was essentially useless.Hiergargo 02:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That it simply ignorant. Karaite Judaism is not just "the rejection of the oral law". Reform Judaism does not "reject all Jewish law". God knows what "Orthodox Jews think", I'm sure you don't. This solution is not ideal but I can tolerate it. Zargulon 07:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Karaite Judaism, it is true, is not "the opposite" of Rabbinic Judaism...it is, however, the most successful opponent of Rabbinical Judaism--at one time claiming up to 1/3 of Jews among its adherents. It is also true that Reform Judaism does not reject all Jewish law...it does, however, reject the authority of Jewish law in informing personal decisions. Where I have to part ways with Zargulon, beyond the WP:AGF and WP:NPA violations inherent in the "That is simply ignorant." statement, is in the apparent assertion that Reform is considered Judaism by Orthodox Jews. The pathetic appeal to authority by invoking what "God knows", and the red herring in the assurance that Hergargo "doesn't ", is...well, exactly that...i.e., "pathetic. Every Orthodox rabbi who has ever addressed the status of Reform vis-à-vis "Torah Judaism", has dismissed it as apostasy, and a number have even blamed the Reform movement as the cause of the Holocaust, ch"v. I would say, based upon personal experience, that the vast majority of Jews who identify themselves as "orthodox", and who adhere to Orthodoxy, under whatever guise or name, agree with Hiergargo's assertion, that "... Reform Judaism ... is not even considered Judaism..."

Beyond that, the statement "This solution is not ideal but I can tolerate it.", by User:Zargulon, seems me indicative of an abject failure, if not outright refusal, to abide by or even simply understand this fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages. Tomer 07:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Tomer, Reform Judaism does not "reject the authority of Jewish law in informing personal decisions". Your personal experiences with Orthodox rabbis and Jews are irrelevant to wikipedia. We would not even be having this argument if you guys cited a reliable source, but since you are wrong, I suppose it must be pretty difficult to find one. Your contrived wikilawyering is an embarrassment. See below. Zargulon 08:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Where are your sources, Zargulon? Hello pot, meet kettle. We would not be having this argument if you would comport yourself a little less obnoxiously. As for the accusation of contrived wikilawyering, what's an embarrassment is that you apparently honestly believe what you're saying. It can't be helped, I guess...there's got to be one in every crowd. WE won't be arguing in the future, since doing so, with you, isn't worth the time or effort. To the list of policies and guidelines I've already pointed out to you, here's another one for you to review. Muwahahaha. Stay hungry, Tomer 22:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

See below. Zargulon 06:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox Judaism

For the record, while our article on Sephardic Judaism doesn't make much of the distinction, and our Orthodox Judaism article makes short shrift of the very existence of Sfaradhim, what is called "Orthodox Judaism" refers, in the minds of those who say it , almost exclusively, to Ashkenazi Traditional Judaism. Among the latest Ashkenazi dogmaticisms seems to be an insistence that everyone reading Misplaced Pages should be forced to have the Jewish world presented to them only as seen through Ashkenazi eyes. The claim being made here to undo my edit, namely, that Sfaradhi and Ashkenazi are solely cultural distinctions flies directly in the face of the assertions made elsewhere (Template talk:Judaism comes to mind), that in Judaism, culture and religion are inextricably interwoven. Tomer 23:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Go forth and write more about Sefaradhim. I'm all for it. They're just as much Jews as us ’Ashkenazim. But:

1) Why aren't you mentioning the Yemenite Jews and the Middle Eastern Jews (עדות המזרח), who are separate ethnic groups? What about the Ethiopian and Indian Jews?

2) The differences between Orthodox ’Ashkenazim, Sefaradhim, Yemenites, and Middle Easterners tend to be practice-based, not ideology-based. Any competent rabbi will tell someone to follow someone to follow his/her own community/family practices, despite differences with his own.

3) Don't foist the non-Orthodox groups off on the ’Ashkenazim. Orthodox rabbis, in my experience, have repeatedly denied they were even the same religion as Orthodox Judaism, no matter what ethnic group. Better to fence those off as a separate group.Hiergargo 02:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

1) At the top of the list, it specifically says that only groups that have WP articles should be included in the list. There are no articles for Yemenite Judaism, Oriental Judaism, Ethiopian Judaism, Bene Israel Judaism, etc., nor even, for that matter, Ashkenazi Judaism.

2) Practice-based is one of the foremost divisions between the vast majority of denominations (or analogous internal divisions) in most of organized religion. For example, the difference between the 2nd and 3rd largest Lutheran denominations in the US (if I recall the numerical rankings correctly) involves the relative importance of certain functionaries within the hierarchy of church leaders. Among other denominations, the differences are as minor as whether they regard Jesus to have established 2 sacraments or 7, or some other number in between. The vast majority of such divisions are culturally and tradition-based, not simply ideology-based (eventhough ideology is how the divisions are often interpreted). Regarding whether or not a competent rabbi will tell someone to follow the person's minhagh vs. the rabbi's his, i.e., the pastor's religion as opposed to the questioner's], that scenario involves a difference in outlook between Christianity and Judaism--in other words, now you're talking about tangelos.

3) I didn't foist the non-Orthodox groups off upon the Ashkenazim...that's where they came from to begin with. Although a lot of Conservative Jews have adopted Sephardic customs, Conservative Judaism is an outgrowth of Reform Judaism, which began as a haskalah-based outgrowth of German Ashkenazi Judaism. As it happens, Reconstructionist Judaism, the Union for Traditional Judaism and Conservadox Judaism all developed from Conservative Judaism (although the last drew largely on Modern Orthodox Judaism as well). Granted, Humanistic Judaism probably doesn't warrant inclusion under Judaism at all, any more than Jewish Buddhists or Judeo-Paganism, nor, for that matter, probably Jewish Renewal ...and for that reason alone, shouldn't be foisted upon the Ashkenazim. (I'm happy to exclude them altogether, so long as nobody says anything about that one guy ;-) ...) As for whether or not they should be "separated", that's an issue I don't know how to handle from a NPOV standpoint...especially not in a way that conforms with WP:NOR. I'm especially unhappy, as I've expressed previously, with the very existence of the Alternative Judaism article (at least by that name...IMHO it should be called Groupings of religious epikorsim or something similar)... Starting an article to handle those groups as well as the "denominations" whose devotion to halakha is notably less-than-steadfast, or in severe decline (i.e., R, C, Rec, etc.), as well as the groups listed in the Alt Jud article, however, would incite an almost inconceivable crapfest from editors who would feel insulted by their Conservative (for example) Judaism being lumped together with Jewish practitioners of paganism and witchcraft, and with Christians, etc. etc. As for denying that any of these groups are the same religion as Orthodox Judaism, I have to agree...in fact, the first breakaway group, the Reform, set out specifically to accomplish exactly that goal--i.e., the establishment of a new kinder, less-restrictive, more-Christian-looking religion. Tomer 03:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not not some teenage Orthodox Judaism forum where contributors are free to vent their prejudices at length in yeshivish about other streams of Judaism and other religions. Look where you are, and either make an educated contribution, or kindly desist. Zargulon 07:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there any reason you chose to reprimand yourself in this manner on this page instead of on your user talk page? Misplaced Pages article talk pages are not for discussing your shortcomings with yourself. Kindly review WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. If you were directing your venom at anyone else besides yourself with your above statement, the sum total of your remarks are wholly inappropriate. If you were talking to yourself, they're irrelevant. Tomer 22:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

In my contributions so far on this page, I have done nothing worse than criticise people's contributions. You, on the other hand, have accused me personally of having venom and an obnoxious comportment. Which of us do you think most people would say was making "personal attacks"? I have assiduously stressed the ecumenical nature of this page and upheld respect for other people's religions. You, on the other hand, launched into an unprovoked assault on non-orthodox streams of Judaism, going even so far as to call some of them personally apostates (not just their alleged beliefs). Which of us, if either, do you think most people would say had "venom" or was "comporting themselves obnoxiously"? In the interim period I have started 5 new pages on topics completely unrelated to this one, and they sure were hard work. Your edit record during the same period speaks for itself. Which of us do you think most people would say was obsessed? By the way, if you can type in hebrew letters, could you please fix the contradiction at the Masoretes page.

Using a hebrew word in the middle of an English paragraph when there is a more normal English word which means the same thing (epikorsim=apostates) sounds yeshivish to me but I admit it's subjective. Zargulon 07:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I recommend we take whatever personal differences we have off the discussion page for this article/list. Asking for citations is one thing, saying "you haven't given any citations because you're wrong" is quite another. Letting that rest tho, I think I've fixed the contradiction you pointed out at Masoretes, and when I have time, and get my internet working properly again, I'll be happy to supply references for the assertions I've made above . FWIW, neither WP:NPOV nor WP:NOR apply to talk pages, and I made no changes to the article that violated either of those two policies...so, in my view at least, any discussion of either, regarding my changes, is frivolous and misinformed. As I have explained elsewhere, while my edit history is really irrelevant to my participation on this page, I am having pretty severe internet connectivity problems... Beyond that, the demands of my job have, for the past few months, taken up much of the free time I once had to edit WP. Directing your comments toward me, however, is just as unproductive to the betterment of the article/list as my directing mine toward you was previously, so let's, please, agree to figure out the best way to procede in the interest of the betterment of the Project. As a side-note, "apostates" can refer to apostates from any religion...I used it specifically to refer to apostates from traditional Judaism, for which the word "epikorsim" is the perfect choice. If you'd paid any attention to this whole discussion, you'd long ago have figured out I'm Sfaradhi, not Ashkenazi, and find Yinglish as bewildering as most Americans find Arabic... I hereby declare a flushing of all misunderstandings, and hope you'll agree to do so as well, in the interest of making the list "all that it can be". Tomer 07:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, good luck with your connection. Thanks for fixing Masoretes. It is news to me that yeshivish has to be based on Yiddish/Ashkenazic, although that's certainly what it says on the yeshivish page. Zargulon 08:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Discordianism

Discordianism is NOT a mock religion! It is a very real religion with very real beliefs. It might look like a parody because of the very humorous tone some of it's philosophy have ("Nonsense as salvation!") , but it's still part of the philosophy. Discordians actually believe in Discordianism. Anyway, it might be a good idea to put it under the "other" category, since it is a very unique kind of belief system.

Objectivism

I noticed that there was a list for groups that were non-religious but had religious tendencys, should we include Ayn Rand's Objectivism philosophy since it's critics have accused it of being a cult? The Fading Light 14:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. Addhoc 15:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Quakers and Christianity

I do not think that the Quakers (Religious Society of Friends) should be listed as 'Christian', as there is no set Creed and thus whether or not Quakerism is a 'Christian' Religion (or a religion at all, many Quakers deny that Quakerism is a 'religion' in the convential sense!) is left up to the individual themselves, and there is an increasing movement away from Christianity for numerous reasons (theological, spiritual and political). There is definately not question that the Quakers emerged from Christianity, from Protestantism, but at the same time there's no question that Christianity emerged from Judaism or the Baha'i faith emerged from Babism which emerged from Shia Islam!

In addition, this this contradicts the quaker article: "Many Quakers feel their faith does not fit within traditional Christian categories....and is still controversial among Friends.]]. Obviously, I cannot speak for all Quakers, Quakerism itself makes that impossible, but I think that most would object to being termed 'Protestants' and would probably prefer to be in the 'Other' list, though a note about the historical relationship to Christianity would certainly be appropriate.

I'm not going to leap in and make any changes before it has been discuss, so any comments?-Gegen

After some quick reading it seems like some consider it to be part of Christianity, and others don't. Not an easy problem. For example, from the Religious Society of Friends article it states that the movement away from Christianity "has become increasingly evident during the latter half of the 20th century and the opening years of the 21st century, and is still controversial among Friends." I guess the solution comes from citing good sources; Adherents.com puts them underneath Christianity ; also, unfortunately, the Religious Society of Friends doesn't have a reference for the above statement. Maybe once we find a recent source documenting the most widespread belief, we could better understand the situation, and place them in the best group, or maybe even place a note beside them. Regards, -- Jeff3000 22:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Gegen, I read the article cited and was surprised that the quote you have was not sourced. It is beyond question that the Society of Friends was founded upon the belief in Jesus Christ. Professing a creed is hardly required to be labeled a Chrristian relgion; if so Jesus and all of the early apostles would be found to be outside of Christianity (creeds were created later).

More than anything Quakers believe in being led by the Spirit and that nothing is more important than that personal revelation. Today, the Society may, in certain areas, have grown away from Christ, but that information should be legitimately documented before stated. Simply stating that one is not a part of the larger, orthtodox groups does not equate to being non-Christian. Great thoughts. Storm Rider 22:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the theological freedom of the Quakers makes things difficult- the Quakers do not label themselves as that goes against on of the 'core principles' of Quakerism. I am in New Zealand, so obviously my thoughts regarding it are influenced by the Quakers in New Zealand (Quakerism is often very localised) and on their home page on the 'who we are' page they define themselves as:

"It is Christian in origin and inspiration, but is open to ideas and values from other forms of religious expression." http://www.quaker.org.nz/whoweare/whoweare.htm But as I've said, Baha'i is Islamic in origin and inspiration, the difference being that some Quakers will say that they are Christians, while no Baha'i will claim that they are Muslims. It's difficult and it comes back to 'what makes a Christian?'. I'm by no means an expert, but I'd say the death and ressurection of Jesus is probably the central thing that binds all the Christian sects together, from the Orthodox to the Catholics to the Protestants. The Quakers don't necessarily belive in the death and ressurection of Jesus, or they may offer a very different interpretation which could be symbolic, allegory or even gnostic or mystic.- Gegen

That's why we need verifiable sources for what is the most widespread belief among Quakers. The question of what is an independent religion is a subtle point. The Baha'i Faith came out of a Islamic milieu, but has significantly different practices and beliefs, including a new prophet/founder (which is sacrilegious to most Muslims who believe Muhammad to be the Seal of the Prophets) which is based on some eschatological prophecies in Islam and Christianity. I would state that that is more like Christianity coming out of a Judaic milieu. -- Jeff3000 23:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

And that's the problem- there is no way to do that accurately as Quakers place so much emphasis on personal interpretation, the inner light, Quakerism isn't like other religious groups in that the basic creed is that there is no creed. However, taking a quick look at the Quaker websites included in the Quaker Article (Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand), the British site says that the Quakerism is 'rooted in Christianity' and 'centre their faith on Jesus', the Australian site doesn't specifically mention Christianity- if they defined themselves as Christians surely they would say so?, New Zealand says that is it Christian in 'Origin and Inspiration' and the Canadian site doesn't make any specific statement about whether or not they are Christian, but reading through there site there is little mention of Christianity at all, even when talking about the history of Quakerism! But as I've said, this can't be taken as authoritive, and these websites may not even represent the general consensus of the Quakers in their country, but one thing does seem to be fairly clear- the majority do not claim to be Christian, however they do say that they take inspiration from Christianity (like Christians take inspiration from Judaism). I still say the Quakers should be moved to the 'Other' section- Gegen

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