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Items Under Debate

Better City Pic

After the last one got removed for copy vio, this new one is a bit underwhelming. I'm a bit short on time, but I'd just like to flag this as a must do. (- Simulcra 19:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC))

I would agree that this one is pretty boring. Perhaps we should open a formal vote (in a week or so?) with images selected from the commons. Jasenlee 18:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Why did we switch the cityscape and main Chicago picture? The one with the Wrigley Building doesn't give a good overview of the city and is outdated by the inclusion of the now destroyed Sun-Times building. A classic postcard picture of the skyline from the Museum Campus would be best as the main pic. --spyguy 16:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Is It Ready?

There's been a lot of sweeping changes to this article since the last nomination - lots of citations, lots of POV edits... what else needs to be done before anothe rnomination? (- Simulcra 20:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

You might consider moving the article to Chicago. Having the article at the city's actual name would be an improvement. Note that this would go against Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (city names), however. Given the prominence of the city, there's no good reason it shouldn't located at Chicago. --Yath 22:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Chicago redirects to Chicago, Illinois... (- Simulcra 20:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC))

It seems ready to go. I'd like to know if anyone else sees anything major that needs to be completed. --Un sogno modesto 18:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

No - I've been working on this article for more than two years and it has never been ready. At least by the standards of those with the power to say so. So while I would agree a lot of good changes have taken place I think we should take that as a sign to re-double our efforts and polish the article even more to ensure a positive FAC. --Jasenlee 03:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Well then what needs to be done? (I've also been working on this article for ~2 years) (- Simulcra 19:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC))

You know, I have no idea. I know that's not helpful but I'm just resigned to the fact this will probably never become a FA. Maybe a poor attitude but for some reason this article has always had a dark cloud hanging over it. I've seen some pretty bad FA's that make it but for some reason this one always has something wrong with it. Perhaps we should get the Chicago WikiProject active again and look for ways to make this article not only meet the standards of a FA but stand out by really polishing ever aspect. I know that's a very general response, but again this article never seems to make it. Jasenlee 18:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Political Machine

I've revised a comment implying that the political machine has returned to Chicago, marked by Richard M. Daley's election after Harold Washington. This is an unsubstantiated claim, and, despite recent developments of city corruption, there has been no connection with the mayor himself, nor has there been any significant evidence of anything *remotely* approximating the political machine of Richard J's reign. (- Simulcra 17:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC))

-It is unsubstantiated, however unless your a tool you know its true if you live in Chicago. While nothing has directly linked Daley yet to illegal activites, at the very least factual NPOV details about the current corrpution probe (led by Fitzgerald) could be included in this article. If was a better editing wikipedian and had more time I'd do it, but alas I pass the buck hoping someone with more experience comes along.

It is *not* true if you live in Chicago. It's simply a blase attitude taken up by some of the more ardently cynical or curmudgeonly citizens. I reserve my judgment until someone makes a substantiated claim about the issue. I do agree that perhaps a summary on recent corruption probes could go in the article, I'm not terribly well versed in the current events, so I also pass the buck to someone with more knowledge. (- Simulcra 01:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

• To quote Micheal Sneed, Puh-leeeze! There's no political machine working in Chicago? I'm an election judge myself, while outright vote stealing is gone, there's no doubt considerable pressure on voters and corruption in Chicago. Unfortunately, unlike the old days, the corruption doesn't extend to Joe Sixpack level anymore, you can't get a freaking parking ticket fixed. It's like Schaumburg, if you want corruption, you need to be a real estate agent.Tubezone 07:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"NPOV"

While one of the todo items is to do extensive copyedit and maintain an NPOV, I, for the most part, believe that what is presented in the Chicago article is, in fact, NPOV. Most of it just happens to be uncited or not elaborated upon, so it happens to come along as boosterism, so I believe working on inline citations and elaborations will also take care of NPOV issues. (- Simulcra 02:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

I left that notation on the todo list since currently very few people (myself and Un sogno modesto included) have actually put some time into the article. Hence, if someone else can sign off on the article's not being POV, I will gladly remove that item from the todo list. Pentawing 05:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Having read the entire article again, I think we are nearly there on NPOV. A lot of what could otherwise be considered boosterism is cited except in the Transportation section. Unfortunately, unless we get some references for "Chicago is the premier transportation hub in America" or some sort of justification, that just isn't going to fly. Sadly, we can't just draw a conclusion on our own like this line does, despite the following lines and paragraphs. Of course, we could just lose that line. Robovski 04:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture Alignment

Please for the love of God will someone fix the layout of pictures in this article! They're everywhere, on both sides, causing huge amounts of white space. It's beyond my wiki-ability to fix at the current moment. RyanGerbil10 04:34, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I tried to tweak it a bit and I think the areas I tweaked look better, but there are some huge sections where I don't know how to make it more aesthetically pleasing. Just too overwhelming!(-Simulcra 19:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC))

Is there a standard on picture alignment and sizing? I happen to think it looks more interesting when there are different sizes and locations much like you'd find in a print encyclopedia. Jasenlee 18:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

My question is, do we need so many pictures? Two for sports (both baseball), two for universities. Keep some of those pictures in other, more specific sections. --spyguy 00:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally you want 'enough' pictures for FA status. As I recall, previously we have failed nomination in part due to not enough free-use pictures. Who is to say how much is too much or too little? All I know is that we should make sure that any picture used is freely usable and preferably not under copyright (using fair-use as little as possible).Robovski 05:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Windy City Name

This discussion archived to Talk:Windy City, Origin of Name (Chicago)/Archive 0.

Barry Popik here. No scholar at all believes that "Windy City" was either coined or popularized by New York City newspapers in the 1880s. This must be changed immediately. İt is widely known that I found the first "Windy City" citations, all from Cincinnati, Ohıo and pre-1880. The earliest citation is from May 1876, and this was verified by Nathan Bierma in his Chicago Tribune article on "Wındy City" in December 2004. Misplaced Pages doesn't have to use my work for free, but everyone else is!

Please try and make your point a little more clearly. I don't know what you're getting at. As far as I can see you're work hasn't been copied but in some cases referenced, which is entirely valid if you are going to publish something. Again, if you have a point to make please make it. Otherwise just edit the article (like everyone else) to meet the standards you think are fitting rather than complaining.

OK, I'll edit it! It must not be stated that New York is the source of "Windy City" because it's not. Barry Popik 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Translations

Should we work more on the translations of the article? I am currently working on the da:Chicago version. --OrbitOne 19:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Architecture, Skyscrapers, and Skyline

One of the things that is obviously missing from the Chicago entry is Architecture. This is surprising considering that Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper and most likely has the best architecture in the entire country. I think a new section for Architecture is needed. In there we can discuss notable styles, schools, architects, buildings and "firsts," and notable skyscrapers both past, present, and future.

I agree. Since we have many great buildings, architects, firsts, schools, and styles. Could we add it? Although I am not an architect nor historian, I can get one started. oclaros1 21:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. There's already a Chicago architecture article. I've added a link to it in the "See also" section - I'm surprised there wasn't one already there. That architecture article could use some work, especially if you have some photographs you could upload. I feel like a dummy sometimes when I take out-of-town visitors downtown and I can only name a handful of the buildings. What I would really like to see is a panoramic photo of the skyline (maybe taken from the planetarium) that has all the towers numbered, with a legend below it giving the name of each. Now that would be cool, especially if it could be done for all major cities. InNuce 02:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I've been working on some new images and need opinoins. Here they are:

Please let me know what suggestions you have. I think the large version is appropriate without the labels. Once the labels are added going to the cropped version of downtown looks much better. I could use some help naming the rest of the buildings.Buphoff 20:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Very sharp. Either the first without the captions or the larger last one with the captions should be used (IMO). Robovski 01:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

New version of Chicago Skyline with building information. Thanks to --- Dralwik| My "Great Project". Any new labels are VERY much appreciated. Keep um coming Buphoff 03:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicities

What is meant by Chicago being the second-largest Lithuanian city in the world? (The same question applies to other ethnicites mentioned.) Are these Lithuanians, etc., actual Lithuanians or American-Lithuanians? There is an important difference between people who were actually born in a place and those claiming descent but were born in the US (the latter inevitably claim multiple ancestry and produce inflated numbers, not to mention questions about whether their ethnicity is country of origin or US). Are these Lithuanians/Greeks/Assyrians/etc. former citizens of those countries?

Melting Pot in Chicago? I don't think so!

The term melting pot pertains to the population's cultural and racial merger of any given society. Thus, this term shouldn't apply to Chicago due to the fact that it is one of the most racially segregated cities in the nation. I know this is true because I’ve lived in Chicago my whole life, and it kills me when people call it a melting pot. People living in the city and the neighboring suburbs continue to refer to themselves as Irish, Greek, Mexican, Polish, Italian, and so forth, overlooking the fact that they really aren’t those nationalities because they were not born in those respective countries. If you were born in this country, then that makes you an American, and an American only. No one living outside the United States will recognize you otherwise if you’re traveling with an American passport. Yet, stupid, ignorant people who no longer practice the customs and traditions of their respective ethnicities continue to ethnically differentiate themselves from their fellow Americans. They pass this garbage down from generation to generation. Such a concept retained by a significant number of the populous facilitates a racial apartheid that has not phased out in Chicago since it was founded. Our public schools and neighborhoods are racially segregated, and the multicultural curriculum is nothing more than a humorous joke. The only thing funnier than that is calling Chicago a “melting pot.” So change is called for!

I'm sorry, but is there something wrong with you? This happens in every city and in every Western country with a large influx of immigrants, from New York to Miami to London and Paris. From the 1800's on wards, immigrants from Europe and then later Asia created ethnic enclaves while at the same time trying to assimilate to some degree. I think you also are confusing nationality and ethnicity. Also go read up on apartheid please.

I lived in Chicago for some 20 years, usually amongst many ethnic groups on the NW side. There is plenty of intermixing, I'm half Slovenian, half mix :) I have had arabic, hispanic, asian and black neighbors, and went to school with them all, and to be honest, it seems most of the 'seperate' nature of some neighbnorhoods comes from the 1st generation immigrants with family who find neighbors like themselves for convenience or because the know/are related to someone there (especially true in the Polish communities). Their children are at the same schools as everyone else's and they integrate. Heck, the immigrants tend to integrate pretty well too. I know what it's like being a foriegner in the land you live in, having spent 6 years here in Scotland. As for being proud of having a heritage, there is nothing wrong with identifying with that heritage. America was made from disperate elements and will continue to in the future. Each new group adds it's touch of flavor to the 'pot', they aren't supposed to disappear without a trace. 'American' isn't just one thing. It's a range of things.Robovski 21:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Next time you're in Chicago, consider visiting the southside. Then come back on here and try tell sell this "melting pot" fairy tale. I also highly recommend you read Barry Glassner's book, "Fear." Chicago is RACIALLY segregated for the reasons he described. For now, read these articles: http://www.law.fsu.edu/Journals/landuse/Vol141/seit.htm, http://www.substancenews.com/content/view/263/81/

I have been to the southside (downtown and lots of the suburbs too for that matter) many times in the course of my long residency and the many visits I made to my family and friends over the years. I attended public schools and while I am white I have black and native american relations. The Slavic part of my family has been in Chicago for 4 generations, and while proud of that, I wouldn't be able to find a one that wasn't an American. I'm going to be straight with you - I'm not going to even click on the links of the articles you have thrown up because either: 1. You have recieved some kind of 'education' recently, perhaps read some things recently that played into experiences you've had or beliefs that you would like to hold true, and now hold this to be gosphel, and this will persist until your next 'intellectual authority' tells you something different or 2. You have had radically different experiences than myself and hold very different beliefs than myself. In either case, I'm not going to change you mind, and you aren't going to change mine. Additionally, I'm at work and there is nothing like a waste of time than to trying to change someone's opinion on an internet discussion forum (which this is not BTW). To be plain, I disagree with you, and you disagree with me. And please sign your comments! Robovski 04:28, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, someone here is living in a fantasy land, and it's not me! Keep you're fairy tale remarks, I don't care either way. Misplaced Pages doesn't appear to be a good, CREDIBLE source of information for academia. This site is a waist of time!

I've always wondered what a waist of time would look like. Anyway, the point is that there shouldn't be any original research. Someone should source the melting pot comment, which should resolve the quasi-issue. -Superdosh 00:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm impressed. You claim I live in a fantasy land because I disagree with you based on my real world experiences, can't spell waste, and then continue to fail to sign your posts. I'm leaning heavily towards my first opinion of you. Anyhow, let's see if we can't find some material in support of Chicago and our little 'melting pot' idea beyond various blogs, news reports and news articles...

• http://www.milkeninstitute.org/publications/publications.taf?function=detail&ID=113&cat=Arts cites Chicago (amongst other gateway cities) as a place where assimilation of new immgrants still happens (unlike the rest of the USA).
• http://www.ailf.org/ipc/MigratingToRecoveryPrint.asp attributes the growth of the Chicago labor force to immigration in the 1990s
• http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itsv/0699/ijse/spain.htm cites Chicago as a major destination for immigrants and covers trends in assimilation for the nation as a whole.

I am constrained to web resources freely available while searching at work - I would like some better source material as my references are great for supporting Chicago as an immigrant destination/gateway but doesn't cite Chicago specifically in the assimilation needed for 'melting pot' very well (or at all). I will point out that the melting pot article itself is currently disputed. Robovski 02:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry man but...why are you waisting your time? Maybe Chicago isn't this Utopian community where every block has one family of each race but it is defiantly a melting pot.Buphoff 21:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

DNC & RNC National Conventions

It might also be interesting to point out that Chicago, Illinois has also been host to the largest number of Democratic National Conventions (11), and the largest number of Republican National Conventions (14). Though I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the, "Windy City," nickname, it does connect to politics. Found this interesting little tidbit of trivia playing NTN the other night (and confirmed by looking at the lists of RNC & DNC conventions). Dr. Cash 21:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Population

This statement: A 2006 estimate puts the city's population at over 3 million. is unsubstantiated and should be properly cited. Until then, I have removed it. Chicago has steadily lost population through the past three decades ( with one exception). The 2004 US Census estimate has it at just over 2.7 million, down from the 2.8 (2000) number. The mayor does not like to admit the population loss, and it is an ongoing issue in this city, so please cite the source for this and the conditions for this 1/4 million rise in two years.(Gary Joseph 02:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC))

I would like to point out that the estimates often underestimate Chicago's population. The 1998 estimate for Chicago was 2,802,000 people, 94,000 less than what the census in 2000 said. I think that it would be more accurate to use the 2000 census data. --- Dralwik| My "Great Project"

It doesn't make any sense that we are still using the 2005 estimate, 2,842,518, in 2006! There IS a 2006 estimate of Chicago's population, which is 2,873,790. Also, the median family income NEEDS to be updated to $46,748. Now, these "statistics" are from CNN Money, which is an impartial source. No "boosterism" is involved here. Therefore, we should be using these facts or statistics in the introduction, the "demographics" section of the article, and in the table. Thank you. (Mike Madsen 10:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC))

We should mention the number of people that relocated to Chicago because of Hurricane Katrina. (Ferris Bueller 7:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC))

That does not make any sense. The 2000 Census did show a rise in population in the city. Anything could have happened in the two years between the 1998 estimate and the 2000 Census ( like a housing boom that added thousands of people back into the city and the new census demographic collection method). There is a whole world difference between a difference of 94,000 and 250,000 in a number that averages 2.7 million. I agree, we should stick to the 2000 number. But I notice 67.162.109.134 put that over 3 million back. I am only saying that if we stick to the US Census and the bureau's estimates, lets do that. But inserting a number that violates those should be cited. It goes back to Misplaced Pages's credibility. (Gary Joseph 07:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. It is not up for members to speculate on 2006 population projections, especially when the source of the projections tends to be from the mayor's office or other sources that have boosterism as their objective. That being said, we should be relying on official census counts, as those are the counts that actually matter, and 2000 is the last hard one. As for using estimates, the use of non-decade US estimates is a debatable issue, especially since the methodology is not only different from the decade-based counts, but also known to be inherently flawed on urban centers that feature a high immigration rate. That being said, the 2006 estimates can be debated, the 2000 numbers cannot, so let's just stick with the 2000 numbers. (-Simulcra 01:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC))

OK, someone is either making up nonsensical data or there's some obscure census data. However much some of us really want Chicago to bloom, I have found nothing so far demonstrating that "It was estimated in 2006 that the population of Chicago was slightly over 3 million." The latest census estimates put Chicago on a consistent decline, and even older Illinois estimates, which I had looked at before a long time ago and can't seem to find again (which aren't 2006) put Chicago projected, in 2006, at less than 3 million. It doesn't even make sense on a theoretical level; it took 10 years (1990-200) to grow by like 112k people, I highly doubt that all of a sudden Chicago took that same level of growth in a little more than half that. Someone find some solid data backing up that statement, because I'm removing it for now. (- Simulcra 21:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC))

Good Article collaboration

Well, this article won, so its the collaboration. So what's the story, what all do editors here feel should be improved or worked upon, or do we need pictures or what? Homestarmy 02:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Chicago's the headquarters of the ELCA. As a Lutheran, that seems pretty important to me. Wait, I'm trying to escape the religious articles. Never mind. Grigory Deepdelver 17:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Got any sources for that? :) Homestarmy 13:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's right on their website. Also, I've heard that the Patriarch of Babylon (head of the Assyrian Church of the East) is in exile in Chicago. Surely we can say something about religion in the demographics section. Anyone have statistics on the religous affiliations of Chicago residents? Grigory Deepdelver 22:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I couldn't see Chicago anywhere on that page. Homestarmy 23:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You didn't look hard enough. If you want an exact page, try the contact page. To wit:

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

8765 W. Higgins Road

Chicago, IL 60631

Grigory Deepdelver AKA Archola 23:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, if you need directions, here a map. Now, can we talk about the other denominations and other religions in Chicago? Grigory Deepdelver AKA Archola 00:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, most city pages really don't talk about religious breakdowns very much, and this article is already increadibly long. the headquarters thing and that other thing are probably important, but I don't think i've seen any other city articles with anything like breakdown charts by denominations or stuff like that. Homestarmy 00:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll look at other city articles, but it seems odd to me not to mention religious demographics. Grigory Deepdelver AKA Archola 00:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

If this article is too long already, perhaps we could mention religion in Demographics of Chicago? That article only mentions ethnicity BTW, why not full demographs? Grigory Deepdelver AKA Archola 00:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I can support that - I think we shouldn't lose the information, but if the article is too long it can certainly become an article linked from the main article. Robovski 04:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Chicago International Film Festival, Golden Hugo Award?

The article Kontroll links to Chicago International Film Festival and Gold Hugo Award (probably Golden Hugo Award) – they are presently red links. Does this festival exist? Is it notable? If so, is this the exact name? I'd like to make its link blue if there's any mentioning. Adam78 21:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it should be Golden Hugo Award given at the Chicago International Film Festival. The Award dates at least as far back as 1977.Shsilver 21:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Crime stats

Found something New York City has on crime statistics, don't have time now, but maybe someone can finish filling in the numbers and other information.

Are you asking for similar numbers in Chicago? If so, why don't you work on this yourself? Jasenlee 06:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Immigration protests

What about pictures of the 2006 immigration protests? Chicago had some of the largest. Big event in the city's history.

I think it premature to label any 2006 event a big event in the city's history. Historians have not yet had a chance to evaluate the historical significance of such recent events. To make such a claim would probably violate Misplaced Pages policies on neutral point of view. DHimmelspach 23:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with the assessment made by DHimmelspach.

75.21.73.84 01:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC) I also agree. In the scheme of the entire width and breadth of the encyclopedic entry "Chicago", the incident mentioned is an isolated political event in a small fraction of the city's history.

Let's Make This a Featured Article

So the biggest issue is underreferencing, which makes alot of sense. There are alot of unqualified statements and qualifiers that seems like boosterism without any proper support. When I have some time (definitely not this week, busy with ScavHunt) I'll start validating stuff, but I myself am not too well versed or experienced at doing inline citations. (- Simulcra 21:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

If you can just add in links next to information, I can see if I can get the time to convert them to inline citation for you. Homestarmy 23:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Burnham Plan

There is no page on the Burnham Plan; there is no mention of Daniel Burnham in this article nor does there seem to be any discussion, anywhere, of the extensive system of boulevards and parks which owe their existence to Burnham. John Reid 12:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Then I encourage you to make one. Jasenlee 18:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

A titanic effort that must begin with a good map of the Burnham Plan; that must begin with a free-license contemporary city map. I'm working on that bit. A decent article on the Plan is going to require more than my 2¢. John Reid 13:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Too many links?

Some sections have overlinking. I cleaned up a bit at the top and in Climate. For instance, I removed rain and snow since they're covered under precipitation. Same goes for seasons. I took out NYC & LA because they're mostly relevant as populous cities, and they're covered in that link. Parts of this article are dense with links and hard to read. --Howdybob 07:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Maps

There's a request open at Requested pictures for maps of Chicago. I've found there are already quite a few maps on wiki and I've been catting them to Category:Maps of Chicago, Illinois. I've also been drawing new maps to a reasonably consistent scheme. I don't think there's any need for us to serve highly accurate, detailed maps; there are specialized resources for that. But I see plenty of value in maps in general.

So far I've uploaded an essentially blank map (customize to suit yourself), a freeway map, a waterway map, and one that combines both sets of features. Next on my list are a major street map and a parks and boulevards map. I may do a ward map and an L map. Anything past that will probably be by request only, so put your thinking cap on.

I use Macromedia FreeHand for all my vector illustration; I have no way to output SVG or convert to it. So, I've uploaded medium-resolution PNGs. If anybody wants to discuss SVG conversion, just ask. John Reid 12:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

In addition this article doesn't once mention "Gold Coast." A map showing the different areas of Chicago (Boy's Town, Near North, Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, Old Town, etc.) with brief explanations would nice. --E. Seneca, 26 June 2006

That is found under Neighborhoods of Chicago, whose link is in the see also section. Pentawing 23:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

On 06nov2006 user provided links to two map views of Chicago under 'External Links'

Major referencing and cleanup needed

After working on other U.S. city articles (several towards FA) and looking through this article, I have come to the conclusion that it will never make it to FA in its current state. Hence, I have begun to clean up this article as well as place a "to do" list of what is needed. However, given that I am not from the Chicago area, I would appreciate some help with the material (formatting and wording I can help with, as well as referencing).

In the end, I hope that when the article is nominated for FA, it will finally pass, in contrast with its previous failures (more than three times if I recall correctly). Pentawing 21:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I'm a Chicagoan, so if you'd like, instant message me sometime and we can discuss some of the issues with the page in more detail. --InShaneee 21:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Just leave a message on my talk page at the moment (a preference when it comes to Misplaced Pages). Pentawing 21:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a message to anyone thinking of attempting another FAC nomination - please look at the to do list at the top. If there are still unresolved items, it is best not to make an attempt until all items have been finished. Pentawing 22:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I got much of the article summarized, copyedited, and referenced. However, there are still some citations that are needed (notably for crime statistics) that I am unable to locate at this time. If someone can find these citations, go ahead. Pentawing 04:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• I believe I have found some sources for the "crime" section for now. Though I am placing the article up for peer review, I would still like to have the content verified by someone else if possible. Pentawing 01:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Bauhaus

Chicago was the center of the Bauhaus, more exactly the New Bauhaus also. It is missing in the article. I don't know much about it, and didn't find much either and I don't want to write false or incorrects things into the article. So I just mention, hope someone, who has bigger knowledge in it reads this and writes it. --195.56.26.179 00:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

City corruption

How about the city's BIG TIME COURPTION? I mean we INVENTED (at least the term) ghost voting

I think 'ghost voting' has been around for some time. For example, it was prevelent in England and Ireland long before it was happening in Chicago. Lochdale 23:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Climate Data

I made somewhat of a living knowing the climate of the Chicago area, and I know for a fact that the data in this article are not correct. I will look for the right numbers, but I know August is the wettest month, it's mentioned in the weather section of the Chicago Tribune fairly frequently, and is so recorded in the sub-article, which I wrote. Hopefully I'll get the right numbers. If anyone knows where these numbers we have now came from, could you please contact me on my talk page? RyanGerbil10 01:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Most city pages use Weatherbase.com . It would also be good if someone could make the table smaller (see NYC or Paris for examples)--spyguy 01:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Major Overhaul of Photographs on the Main Page

Is it just me, or are some of these photos somewhat sub-par to be included on the main Chicago page?

Examples:

1)The huge panorama captioned: The skyline of Chicago at sunset

A decent photo, but it seems oddly out of place at the end of all the mayoral talk.

2)Caption: Children playing in Chicago's Millennium Park

If this is next to demographics, wouldn't it be better to have a photo of something like Greektown, Chinatown, Devon, etc.?

3)Caption: Chicago Board of Trade

I agree with the subject, but a clearer and newer photo is necessary.

4)Caption: Chicago City Hall, shortly before construction was completed in 1911.

Again, why not post a recent photo of City Hall and not a historic one?

5)Caption: CPD Officers making an arrest.

This one I found really odd. A pic of police arresting a guy does not really look that great on a polished main article. Perhaps an alternative would be a shot of a Chicago police car, or say an officer on a segway.

6)Caption: Cook County Hospital

Although I like the building, this hospital is defunct. A photo of one of the newer structures in the Illinois Medical District or one of Northwestern's many facilities in Streeterville (like the new Prentice) would be better.

7)Caption: The Lake Shore Drive (LSD) Bridge over the Chicago River.

I don't get this one. It is not even a historical photo. It must have been taken in the late 1980's as I don't see many major building.

I do not mean to detract from the photographers. Most of the photos are quite nice, it is just that they are either too old or seem to have little to do with the topics nearby.

• Unfortunately, the photos you mentioned are the only ones readily available under GFDL or public domain licenses. In Misplaced Pages, copyrighted images are highly discouraged (especially when articles must have the ability to be freely distributed without problems. Copyrighted materials pose a legal problem). If you have any better images, please upload them and replace the current images. However, make sure that such images can be freely distributed. Pentawing 01:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand, but I at least want to draw some attention to those photo issues. I will hopefully find some new photos to add that can be freely distributed.--spyguy 01:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

1)The huge panorama captioned: The skyline of Chicago at sunset

Although I agree that this could seem misplaced; I actually think that it makes a good break in the article--a chance for someone reading the whole article to pause for a moment.

4)Caption: Chicago City Hall, shortly before construction was completed in 1911.

The city hall is currently covered in scaffolding (as you can see at Image:Critical Mass Chicago 050826.jpg. I tried recently to photograph one of the sides that doesn't have much visible construction work, but the layout of the loop makes this difficult. I intend to try for a photo from Daley plaza once the scaffolding comes down.

5)Caption: CPD Officers making an arrest.

I agree; I have always forund this an odd photo to include in this article.

6)Caption: Cook County Hospital

The old prentice is ugly (I have a photo of it if you really want one); the new prentice is unfinished. The other northwestern buildings aren't much to speak of (I work there).

7)Caption: The Lake Shore Drive (LSD) Bridge over the Chicago River.

I have some more recent photos of this bridge. I didn't upload them because we already have this photo. However, if it is felt that this one should be replaced, I can offer some alternatives.

We have hundreds of Chicago pictures available to us at the commons. Take a look at the gallery at http://commons.wikimedia.org/Chicago%2C_Illinois and the subcategories of http://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Chicago and see if you can find anything that you like better. JeremyA 02:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've substituted a couple of possible alternatives from the commons for the 'crime' and 'transportation' sections. JeremyA 02:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good so far, though could you provide an image of a Chicago police car instead? Just a preference. Pentawing 03:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't find a police car photo. I'll try to remember to take one the next time I am out with my camera. JeremyA 02:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have seen some police cars on the commons, and I have a decent one myself. However, I do like the picture you have now. The fact that it is more verticle also helps spacing-wise when next to the article.

If you could, please shoot a picture of the new Prentice (glassy side corner). I know that it is officially under construction, but from the exterior it is mostly complete. Unrelated, if you have any nice photos of the Palmolive/Playboy Building could you also upload those to use on some architecture/tallest pages.Thanks --spyguy 01:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry it took so long to get this. I have uploaded a photo of the new Prentice to the commons at Image:Prentice Chicago 060816.jpg. It's not the best photo—finding a good angle proved more difficult than I thought. —JeremyA 04:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

No, that's fine. Is it alright if I put it on the front page next to the health and medicine section? The old Cook County Hospital is in disrepair and no longer used, so it does not really project the image of cutting edge medicine in Chicago. Thanks again. --spyguy 01:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Can we put the old picture of the skyline as the main pic on the top on the main page again? This one is alright, but it's very grainy, compressed, and shows only a little bit of the skyline, and not really from a famous angle either. The other picture (at least at a small size) looked pretty cool and did justice to the skyline. --spyguy 02:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the previous image is marked as "copyrighted," which can pose a problem (generally, for topics such as cities, PD or GFDL-licensed images are preferred since one can easily take a picture and release it freely under such licenses). Pentawing 04:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't know that. Then I suppose we'll have to keep this one until we can come up with a good alternative.

--spyguy 15:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Skyscrapers

The statement "...the world's first skyscraper was constructed in 1885 using steel-skeleton construction..." in the History section doesn't seem to jive with the list at Skyscraper#History_of_tallest_skyscrapers. I'll look into it when I get the time, but I just thought I should bring it up since it could represent (or misrepresent) a "first". See WikiProject Fact and Reference Check if you want to help with this sort of thing. Thanks. • CQ 19:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I reworded the passage to emphasize the first steel-framed skyscraper in Chicago rather than the world. Is that better? Pentawing 23:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Reference: ]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Moved. Yanksox 00:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Chicago, Illinois → Chicago – WP:NC(CN); chance for confusion with other things called "Chicago" is minimal.—Nat Krause 18:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that this move was also proposed earlier this year. That straw poll ended in February with no consesnus to move the article. Talk:Chicago/Archive3#Chicago, Illinois --> Chicago. -Will Beback 23:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support per nomination.—Nat Krause 18:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. --Usgnus 19:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per the Naming convention that covers city names. WP:NC(CN) is not the convention that covers city names. The current name follows the convention and is not listed as an exemption. Vegaswikian 19:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think this is a sensible exception to the Common Names convention, and it is certainly not a necessary exception. It is notably not mentioned as an exception on WP:NC(CN).—Nat Krause 20:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The dual-name U.S. ] naming "convention" for articles about Cityname is inherently unconventional, and violates the broader Misplaced Pages naming conventions (namely, to use the most common/used name unless there is an ambiguity, and, even then to disambiguate with parentheses, e.g., Chicago (Illinois)), not to mention violating the city naming conventions used by every professional publication in the world, including all other encyclopedias. --Serge 20:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support I think it is obvious that this is what people would be looking for if they type Chicago. --Edgelord 21:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Folks who type in "Chicago" alone will be redirected to the current name, so that isn't a problem. The naming convention for U.S. cities is clear and logical. We should be making exceptions and treating certain cities differently without a solid reason. -Will Beback 22:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• See below for "solid reasons" to ignore the unconventional "convention", which is an exception in and of itself. Agreed that we shouldn't be treating U.S. cities differently from other-country cities and the standard established by every publication outside of Misplaced Pages. --Serge 22:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. The name of the city is Chicago. That should also be the name of the article. The fact that it's in Illinois is substance for the article text, not the title. Soltras 22:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - Use common names. Disambiguate using parentheses if necessary. --Polaron | Talk 22:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support strongly. No disambiguation needed for Chicago, and the state name is tedious, unneccesary, and not used in conversation. The title "Chicago, Illinois" is equivalent to "Paris, Île-de-France". --- Dralwik| My "Great Project".
• Support Chicago is the name of the city, and it isn't like there is another Chicago that it is commonly confused with. Robovski 00:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. This sort of move should be handled by a general survey on naming city articles, rather than a case-by-case discussion. 01:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• That seems sensible, but history shows that approaching this issue in a general survey does not work because it attracts the interest of only the Misplaced Pages "policy wonks", particularly those obsessed with "consistency for the sake of consistency" and improving the situation for editors rather thanreaders (despite that being contrary to Misplaced Pages policy), and results in distorted decisions (like the Cityname, Statename unconventional "convention") that do not reflect the more rational sentiments of Misplaced Pages editors as reflected in the survey on this page so far. --Serge 23:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• So you think that inconsistent naming is more "professional" than following a standard? I disagree. Consistency is an importnat quality in an encyclopedia. -Will Beback 20:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• No. I agree consistency is an important quality in an encyclopedia. This is why I'm opposed to following the Cityname, Statename guidelines: it results in city article names that are inconsistent with the rest of the encyclopedia. When there is no ambiguity issue, the article name should reflect the name of the subject covered by the article, period. In this case, that's Chicago, period. Consistent. Simple. Quality. The inconsistency problem isn't Chicago or New York City... it's San Francisco, California, Los Angeles, California, Boston, Massachusetts and all other U.S. city articles that are titled with names that are inconsistent with WP:Naming policies. The whole "pre-disambiguation" concept is inconsistent and non-standard. --Serge 22:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. It's rarely called "Chicago, Illinois" unless you're mailing a letter. Kirjtc2 02:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Let the name of the article be the name of the subject. This simple principle will allow Chicago to be an important entity in its own right, and not merely a subdivision of Illinois. The arguments against this move are rather flat: we have a convention against it. There is not one word as to how this is a good policy for readers, nor how it maintains the quality of the encyclopedia. --Yath 03:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. --Un sogno modesto 18:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. US cities need not be treated differently from all other cities in the world. Major cities where there is little likelihood of confusion have no need for automatic disambiguation. There is no other Chicago of any comparable level of fame or notability to this one, so Chicago it should be. john k 22:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Just to note that I do not support the apparent idea, being advanced by some here, that we should disambiguate American cities in the format Springfield (Massachusetts). Misplaced Pages tends to prefer natural disambiguation to unnatural, and the "City, State" format is a natural disambiguator commonly used in the US. It should be used when disambiguation is necessary (which it almost always is). But for the relatively small number of cases where no disambiguation is needed, well, no disambiguation is needed. john k 22:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support per original 4 January 2006 vote. —Rob (talk) 00:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support this particular case only. This is the only locality Chicago, except for a neighborhood in South Africa, and the primary use in any context. However, I support the present naming practice in general; the assertion that Springfield, Illinois and Springfield, Massachusetts are somehow unconventional suggests a lack of fluency in American. Septentrionalis 15:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Septentrionalis, I don't think anyone has ever asserted that references like Springfield, Illinois and Springfield, Massachusetts are unconventional. I agree an assertion like would suggest a lack of fluency in American English. What has been suggested, certainly by me, is that the name of each city is simply Springfield, not Springfield, Massachusetts or Springfield, Illinois. I also contend that it is unconventional for any publication to refer to the name of the town as Springfield, Massachusetts or Springfield, Illinois. In other words, the , StateName part of CityName, StateName is not part of the name of the City. It is location information, that, in an encyclopedia entry generally belongs in the text of the article, not the name. Now, in this case where we have a clear ambiguity issue, the general Misplaced Pages convention is to add additional disambiguation information in parentheses, producing Springfield (Massachusetts) and Springfield (Illinois), as well as a disambiguation page named Springfield, which of course already exists.

What is conventional is for the title of any article in Misplaced Pages to consist simply of the shortest form of the name, and any necessary disambiguation information to be specified in parenthesis following the name of the subject. All arguments that city and community names should be inconsistent with that clear, simple, professional, consistent and proven convention are very weak at best, and seem to be based on a comfort level with city, state referencing, and a lack of appreciation for the fact that the reference location form is inappropriate in the name context of a city. --Serge 15:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with you that the title should be the "shortest form of the name", I do have a nit to pick here. The universal form to disambiguate a city in North America, both on Misplaced Pages and in written and everyday speech, is to use "city, state". I have honestly never heard or seen anyone in North America use any other form. Whatever the outcome of this is, the comma convention must be used when required. Kirjtc2 16:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Kirjtc2, I believe you're confusing the concept of name disambiguation in Misplaced Pages (for which the unique convention to use commas for city article names is inconsistent with the convention used consistently by all other categories of articles in Misplaced Pages - specify the disambiguation information in parentheses) with the format commonly used in general usage to specify the location (not the name) of a given city. --Serge 17:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Serge, where do people ever refer to the city of "Springfield (Illinois)"? That's a very odd construction. Is this how you intend to "professionalize" the encyclopedia? -Will Beback 21:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No where, of course. But if that's an issue, an "odd construction", then, if you value being consistent, you have to challenge the parenthetic remark method used by all other Misplaced Pages article titles to disambiguate. Like it or not, it's the standard disambiguation convention in Misplaced Pages, and I don't see why city article titles should be exceptions to it, particularly with a method that obscures the distinction between the name of the subject and the information that disambiguates it, which is exactly what the cityname, statename format does, particularly for non-American readers. There is no resaonable expectation that a concatenation of the name of a subject (like Springfield or George Armstrong) with relevant disambiguation information in a parenthetic remark (like (Illinois) or (actor)) produces a title for the article that is ever used to actually reference the subject of the article (Springfield (Illinois) or George Armstrong (actor)). --Serge 22:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The term in parentheses is not part of the name. It is simply a way to differentiate things with the same name. This means that the name is "Springfield". The Misplaced Pages engine was designed to use parentheses for disambiguation. Think of the parenthetical term as an html comment -- one is not supposed to see it when it is rendered (via the pipe trick). --Polaron | Talk 22:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. And that's a big difference between disambiguating with the standard method, Name (Disambiguating Info), versus doing it with Name, Disambiguating Info. The parenthetic method leaves a clear distinction between the subject Name and and the disambiguation info. The comma method blurs the distinction, particularly in the case of CityName, StateName. --Serge 23:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If it's good enough for the USPS, city, state is good enough for Misplaced Pages. I prefer Chicago over Chicago, Illinois based on common usage, and Roselle, Illinois over Roselle (Illinois city) based on... well... the post office's common usage. (not trying to be facetious) —Rob (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure, city, state is a valid reference to the address or location, but it's not the NAME of the city. The title of an article about a city is not supposed to be a location or address reference to that city; it's supposed to be the NAME of that city, period. When disambiguation information is necessary, why not add it in the conventional manner (with a parenthetic remark), rather than in an unconventional way to disambiguate that blurs the distinction between the city name and the disambiguation information? --Serge 22:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong support. Chicago is a very-well known city, while Illinois is an unpopular state. It's a rare occasion, something like Las Vegas, Nevada. — CRAZY`(lN)`SANE 17:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Weak support and at this time for this case only. I strongly oppose Serge's quixotic quest to completely overturn the U.S. cities naming convention. I agree that there are some world class cities in the U.S., like Chicago, where adding the state name is sort of like the tail wagging the dog (in that the city is more well known than the state). I'd like to see sort of criteria for determining which cities qualify though. older ≠ wiser 19:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. per above. —dima 22:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Just wanted to say I think it's great this got moved and please let me know if the tide turns elsewhere. Jibbajabba 09:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The unconventional U.S. Cityname, Statename naming "convention"

I would just like to point out that a growing number of Misplaced Pages editors are recognizing that the U.S. City naming "convention" to use Cityname, Statename for an article about Cityname is problematic for at least the following reasons.

1. Use of two comma-separated names (cityname and statename) in an article name about an entity whose most common name is the first name (cityname) is an unconventional "convention" for Misplaced Pages (unless there is an ambiguity).
2. Even when there is an ambiguity, the other name is normally specified in parentheses, e.g., Name (disambiguation name), not by a comma.
3. The "convention" is inconsistent with other Misplaced Pages naming conventions, including the naming conventions used for articles about cities in most other countries.
4. The "convention" is inconsistent with professional publications, including newspapers, magazines, and all other encyclopedias (both print and online).
5. The arguments for the "convention" (consistency, "predisambiguation") favor editors over readers in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.
6. Avoiding the most common/known/used name in order to avoid potential (not actual) ambiguities is... odd.

Thankfully, the "convention" is just a guideline, not a required standard, so we can ignore it here, for all of the above reasons, if nothing else. If you are interested in joining other Misplaced Pages editors to professionalize Misplaced Pages by following conventional naming conventions in the area of U.S. city and community names, please let me know on my talk page. Thanks. --Serge 21:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The convention should be followed unless there is a good reason otherwise. This page is not the right place to change the convention. -Will Beback 22:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It is illogical and unreasonable to follow an unconventional "convention" that is itself contradictory to every relevant convention within as well as outside of Misplaced Pages. This might not be the place to change the "convention", but it's as good a place as any to ignore it. Again, it's not a mandatory standard anyway; it's a "guideline". --Serge 22:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Besides, this is an instance of two conventions that contradict each other.—Nat Krause 22:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Strict adherence to artificial conventions is not a substitute for correctness. The name of the city is just "Chicago". As mentioned above the convention used by US cities is not the usual way Misplaced Pages does disambiguation anyway (and should probably be changed). While not needed for Chicago, parentheses should be the disambiguation method (and not the comma construction) since one can utilize the pipe trick. --Polaron | Talk 23:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually based on the city seal, the correct name is City of Chicago. Vegaswikian 23:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Using parenthese for disambiguation is problematic becuase we use that style for physical landmarks. Otherwise, It'd be hard to know if "Lake Forest (Illinois)" covered a lake or a town. Secondly, there's nothing artificial about referring to "Chicago, Illinois". Lastly, note that many naming conventions do not adhere to the most popular name. This is true for aircraft (Hughes H-4 Hercules, not "Spruce Goose") and royalty (Diana, Princess of Wales, not "Princess Di".) Those are not artificial conventions either. -Will Beback 23:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If further disambiguation is necessary then use "(Illinois town)", etc. as the qualifier. Also, whether it is a landmark or a place will be indicated in the intro text anyway. Plus, a reader wouldn't know off hand that there is a difference in disambiguation style for landmarks and for places. There shouldn't be anyway. Unless the city's official/legal title is "Chicago, Illinois", the state name does not need to be there. Yes, it is true that most popular names are not always used. But in the examples you cited, those are official names/titles which is another option for titling articles. --Polaron | Talk 23:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"City of Chicago" would not be a helpful title, so I don't think the "official" name makes sense either. I don't see how anyone could be confused by "Chicago, Illinois", or why that article name is a problem. Do folks really worry about this? One purpose of the U.S. city naming convention is to avoid these endless discussions over what to name city articles. Let's just accept it and move on. -Will Beback 00:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's compromise by moving it to Chicago first, then accepting that and moving on.—Nat Krause 01:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• If the purpose of the U.S. city naming conventions was to avoid these endless discussions, then they would not be inconsistent with fundamental Wikipedian naming conventions, like use the most common/known name unless there is an ambiguity issue. There were no discussions about the name of this article until you proponents of the unconventional "convention" changed it from Chicago to Chicago, Illinois. You made the bed... it's more than a bit disingenuous to complain about it now. Ridiculous. --Serge 17:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's compromise by accepting the convention for U.S. cities. There's no need to change the article name. -Will Beback 01:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If accepting the unconventional "convention" for U.S. cities would not be inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policy, then I would agree with you. But since doing so produces original names inconsistent with not only most other naming conventions in Misplaced Pages, including those of other countries, but also inconsistent with every other published encyclopedia (online and text), reason, logic and objectivity make it impossible to agree with you. The name of the subject of this article is Chicago. If consistency and conventions are truly values, and since there are no ambiguity issues (Chicago currently redirects here), Chicago must be the name of this article, period. --Serge 17:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As we've said over and over again, if you want to change the convention than you are free to try to propose changes. In fact, you have proposed changes and they haven't been accepted. -Will Beback 20:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I and others are proposing changes. The vote above is an example of that. Conventions aren't proposed, they develop; guidelines are proposed, and may or may not be followed by convention. The current guidelines specify (but do not require) the Cityname, Statename format for U.S. city articles. If the consensus here or anywhere else (like New York City) is to ignore those guidelines, then that's what changes the convention, not yet another vote by the policy wonks on the guidelines. --Serge 21:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Will says Let's compromise by accepting the convention for U.S. cities. There's no need to change the article name. How in the world would that conceivably constitute a compromise? I don't think compromise is actually possible here. Either all US cities (except, apparently, New York) have to follow the "City, State" convention, or they don't. There's not much room for a compromise there. john k 22:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that my comment was in response to Nat Krause's proposed "compromise". -Will Beback 23:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, that's also not a compromise. john k 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Springfield, Illinois is perfectly conventional usage. In any context where the state may be uncertain, it is standard American usage. (The extension of this to other countries, like "Paris, France", has a rustic tinge; but Paris, Texas is correct.) Septentrionalis 15:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Context is everything. Indeed, Springfield, Illinois is perfectly conventional usage, when referencing the location of the city named Springfield in the state named Illinois. But the name of the city is Springfield, not Springfield, Illinois. Yet the opposite is suggested when we name the article Springfield, Illinois. Note that no other encyclopedia does this, for good reason. On the other hand, if we specify the disambiguation information in a manner that is consistent with Misplaced Pages disambiguation conventions, in parentheses, then we have Springfield (Illinois), which clearly distinguishes the name of the city, Springfield, from the disambiguation information, which in this case happens to consist of the name of the state in which it is located. To be entirely clear, perhaps it should be something like Springfield (city in the U.S. state of Illinois). But, just like for any other Misplaced Pages article, regardless of what the disambiguation information is, it should be clearly demarcated inside parentheses, to distinguish the name of the subject (Springfield) from the disambiguation information. Use of the CityName, StateName location reference format for article names fails to do that. --Serge 16:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion continues at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions (places)#Still_no_answer_to_original_question. --Serge 17:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sports

In the article it says that Chicago is one of three cities to have two Major League Baseball teams. I know that the Anaheim Angels changed their name to Los Angeles Angels, but they do not play in LA or it's surrounding area. Anaheim isn't even in the same county as LA. I don't think you can consider them the same as New York and Chicago where both teams actually play in the city or in a suburb of the city. I suggest making that distinction in the article.Ramsquire 21:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Revisiting the headline photo

The current headline photo (Image:5562e5mtfv0j6a.jpg) that was added by Chicagoloverforever (talk · contribs) on 17 August has duboius copyright status, so I think that we need to find a replacement. Prior to 17 August the image Image:Chicago Skyline.jpg was being used. This itself was a replacement for a deleted image. Going back still further I found that we used to use Image:Chitown jc01.png—I actually prefer using a distant skyline shot like this one rather than an aerial view for the headline image. Any thoughts? (There are, of course, a lot of other possible images that we could use at the Commons—commons:Category:Aerial views of Chicago & commons:Category:Chicago skyline might be good places to start)—JeremyA 00:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned about two things:

1.) The current image doesn't meet WikiCommons/Wikipedia standards.

2.) Images in the past have been, quite frankly... boring.

If we make a change here let's take a vote and pick something that doesn't suck. I'm getting tired of this argument.

Jasenlee 05:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Since I'm deleting this image, I'll replace it with the previously used image, Image:Chicago Skyline.jpg. howcheng {chat} 17:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Large City Strawpoll Construction

I am trying to work on a large City Strawpoll to end the feuding about larger cities in the United States. Please visit the page, User:Ericsaindon2/Sandbox and leave comments on the talk page, but dont edit the actual page. After it has been modified to satisfy the community, I will go ahead and open it. But, please review it and comment, to avoid controversy over its structure. I hope to open it in a few days after discussion, so please be timely in making your comments. Thanks. --Ericsaindon2 05:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Elevation

I added the lowest to highest elevation in the city to the city infobox a while back, and I notice that it has been deleted. It has been replaced by a single elevation. (I assume this is some average.) Why has this been done? Other cities have it both ways, but if both numbers are known they should be used. --Kalmia 15:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for the article

• Demographics section is just a list of statistics and fairly unreadable. The graph there is pretty illegible too. I would rather you focus on only key statistics and more commentary on what those numbers mean, and spin the rest off.
• Lots of other lists and recitation of statistics throughout the article without commentary that can just be revamped entirely - education, infrastructure, sports, media
• History - The period of Chicago's rapid growth in the late 19th century seems kind of brief. Only a one line mention of the fire?
• No section in the article gave me much of a sense of the layout of the city...what's it like in the north side? what's it like in the south side...etc.
• Blues and jazz mentions are really brief.
• No mention of Frank Lloyd Wright? Granted he did a lot of his work outside of the city, but he was an influential presence in Chicago.
• Too much detail on crime - significantly reduce the section.

These suggestions were made by DaveOinSF via my Talk page. --Un sogno modesto 04:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Chicago in Arts & Literature?

It would be nice to see something here about representations of Chicago in literature and Film. You could link to a list, or perhaps even mention a few such representations of the city in this article itself. A shame to see no Saul Bellow or _The Blues Brothers_ here, even through a link to another page.

Racially Motivated Gentrification

Removed "racially motivated" from this phrase in the Cityscape section. There are many causes for "gentrification" - financial and cultural are probably the most important - but "race" as a motivation seems unlikely (and certainly unsubstantiated). Undeniably, gentrification usually means significant - even radical- change in the racial make-up of an area, but that is an effect rather than a cause. Perhaps "racially significant" rather than "motivated"? Bog 14:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Television and Radio Shows in Chicago

WHY ISN'T THERE ANY MENTION OF TELEVISION SHOWS BASED OUT OF CHICAGO, OTHER THAN OPRAH???!!!The Jerry Springer Show, Judge Mathis, Ebert & Roeper, Sports Action Team, Sexual Healing, and Soundstage are all popular television shows that are based out of Chicago. Also, popular radio personality, Mancow does his show from the WLS studios. Jonathan Brandmeier does his morning show on 97.9 The Loop. ALL television and radio shows should be mentioned in either the culture section or the media section. User:Senita Fetibegovic 23:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Transit in Chicago

The RTA is not another service board but the coordinating organization for the three service boards. It seems that there was some confusion between RTA and some of the service boards. gidonb 00:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Chicago"

Although I have no actual data, I would suspect as many people pronounce the city's name Chi- caw-go as Chi-cah-go. As far as I can tell, this is not a North Side/South Side or a black/white phenomenon. Any thoughts?

I've heard people say "Chick-a-go" - doesn't mean they were right. And remember, please sign your comments. Robovski 01:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Religious organizations in Chicago

The Rainbow/Push Coalition and the Nation of Islam have its national headquarters on the south side. Rainbow/Push Coalition's headquarters is located at 930 E. 50th St. and the Nation of Islam's headquarters is located at 7351 S. Stony Island Ave. Also, Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan DEFINITELY need to be mentioned, since those two are basically the leaders of their respective organizations. All of this needs to be mentioned because it is VERY SIGNIFICANT!!! User:Senita Fetibegovic 18:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada. --Serge 05:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Fire code jurisdiction

From Humboldt Park, Chicago: Most of the neighborhood was annexed into the city in 1869, the year the park was laid out. The fact that this area stood just beyond the city's fire code jurisdiction as set out after the 1871 fire made inexpensively built housing possible.

Where exactly are the borders of this jurisdiction? Have they changed over the years? --Kalmia 05:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

North side Ethnic Make-up

Not sure why Africans (mostly Nigerians) are not included in the overview of Chicago's north side. Panda

Article Name

Why is Chicago's article "Chicago" while the page for Los Angeles is "Los Angeles, California"? Similarly, Philadelphia and New York City (I can understand why New York City's article doesn't have the state name) have no state names in the article title. Yet most other cities do have the state name in their Misplaced Pages entry titles. Could someone explain to me why this is or if there is a guideline for the naming of city entries? --Lyght 23:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Because Chicago was considered notable, and someone petitioned for the change, and that change was supported by enough wiki editors to happen. See the Requested Move header above. Robovski 23:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The current guideline at WP:NC:CITY indicates all U.S. cities should be named by the so-called "comma convention", but this is somewhat controversial because following this context-specific convention results in titles like Los Angeles, California that are in conflict with the general naming guidelines that apply to all of Misplaced Pages, like WP:NAME, which calls for use of the most common name, and WP:DAB, which says titles should not be disambiguated when not necessary. There is a lot of discussion about this at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (settlements). In any case, all guidelines allow for exceptions, and for this guideline the current exceptions include New York City, Chicago and Philadelphia. --Serge 01:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If anyone is interested in moving it to Chicago, Illinois, we can propose a move. -Will Beback · † · 00:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article

OK, so this isn't a 'Good Article'. Today's Featured Article is San Francisco, California and I think this article is as good. Why can't we go for it? Robovski 00:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Right on, Robovski. Senita Fetibegovic 23:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, great article, very useful. Sure seems like a feature to me! ThaddeusFrye 08:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Major sports teams in Chicago

Someone keeps erasing the statement: "Chicago is one of only a few cities to have its major sports teams play within its city limits." I think it is WORTH NOTING and VERY RELEVANT!!! Senita Fetibegovic 00:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages featured article candidates (contested)
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Undated GA templates
• Good articles without topic parameter
• Unassessed WikiProject Illinois articles
• Unknown-importance WikiProject Illinois articles
• Unassessed Chicago articles
• Unknown-importance Chicago articles
• WikiProject Chicago articles
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists