| Revision as of 16:31, 10 May 2019 editZeng8r (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers11,933 edits →Content conflict, redux: reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:50, 10 May 2019 edit undoAverette (talk | contribs)15,406 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| ::You are again avoiding the central issue - the sources disagree, so all points of view should be included. For every citation that claims a Key West origin, I can find one that points to Tampa. See and and , all of which I found in about two minutes of research. And those are in addition to the wide variety of published sources (books and journals) and newspaper articles quoting experts that are already cited. | ::You are again avoiding the central issue - the sources disagree, so all points of view should be included. For every citation that claims a Key West origin, I can find one that points to Tampa. See and and , all of which I found in about two minutes of research. And those are in addition to the wide variety of published sources (books and journals) and newspaper articles quoting experts that are already cited. | ||
| ::For the 17,000th time - historians disagree on this issue. And when the sources disagree, that disagreement / uncertainty should be fairly reflected in the article per clear and unambiguous Wikipolicy. ] (]) 16:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC) | ::For the 17,000th time - historians disagree on this issue. And when the sources disagree, that disagreement / uncertainty should be fairly reflected in the article per clear and unambiguous Wikipolicy. ] (]) 16:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC) | ||
| :::You obviously can't read. The 1st link is 404 error. the 2nd is coverage of an argument between two people on a radio show, not a valid source. The 3rd states this: "In the mid-1800s, the Cuban tobacco industry emerged in Florida, where it first emerged in KEY WEST. Later, tobacco moved north to Tampa,... this marked the RISE of the Cuban sandwich. Rise does not mean it was created there. It means that it started to become popular there. Please learn how to read. Oh, and you might want to read the first comment directly below the article by Carl E. Mott III. He knows what he's talking about, unlike you. ] (]) 17:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
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Content conflict, redux
NOTE This discussion of User:Averette's edits began on his talk page. I copied my part of the discussion here, where it should be. Of course, he and anyone else is more than welcome to join in.
We had this exact same argument 9 1/2 years ago.. at least! (See archives). To repeat, there are sources that say that the Cuban sandwich comes from Key West, and there are sources that say it comes from Tampa. This is why the article mentions both as possibilities, with MANY references.
As for the video, I'm not sure that some random item on Vimeo is particularly reliable, especially since you're apparently arguing that it's SO good that it invalidates all other sources. But if you jump to the 9 minute mark, three people say that the sandwich comes from Tampa. Next time, try WATCHING the sourced video before you revert valid edits! (Link to video here: )
This again proves my point; the beginnings of the sandwich are lost to time, and there is evidence for both a Tampa and S. Florida origin. Like I've repeated for a decade in this case, when sources disagree, that uncertainty should be reflected in the article. (And just so you know, I'm copying my side of this discussion to the Cuban sandwich talk page, where it should be. Not liking your habit of removing warnings and discussions from here.) Zeng8r (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
One more thing: There's no need to use a photo featuring a wrapper displaying the name of particular restaurant in the infobox since there are other alternatives that cannot be construed as advertising. --Zeng8r (talk) 20:44, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Photo changed
- Also there are several sources that were added, not just the video
- You did not add any other sources that had not already been in the article for a very long time. There is no new information, and no reason to change the either/or origin story as it was.
- I know you've only been editing here for over a dozen years, but have you gotten around to checking out the actual editing policies? Or reading the explanation above? Or the other explanations I've patiently written for you over and over many years, as seen in the talk page archive? If reliable sources conflict, all points of view should be mentioned and explained in the article. (This is the relevant policy: Misplaced Pages:These_are_not_original_research#Conflict_between_sources ) The article text has carefully followed that guideline since after the last time you tried to insert your Key West-centric POV in 2009. Since there is no new information on the subject (and there isn't likely to be), that's the way it shall remain.
- You should also take a look at another policy: Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. Your repeated POV-pushing and refusal to engage in reasonable discussion on this subject checks off a bunch of the tendentious descriptors, which is a problem. Zeng8r (talk) 10:45, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
NOTE: Since this discussion is going nowhere, I requested a third party take a look: Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Cuban_sandwich --Zeng8r (talk) 11:21, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
NOTE TO THIRD-PARTY OBSERVERS: You might think that it's silly to argue over a lunch food, and in the big scheme of things, you'd be right, of course. But the Cuban sandwich is at the center of a long-running friendly rivalry between Tampa and South Florida, so much so that an earlier content dispute in this very same article was covered in the Tampa Tribune. As with articles on all controversial topics, it's important to keep a balanced, well-sourced approach that includes all sides. That's how the article shaped up back in 2009, and that's what I'm continuing to argue for now. Zeng8r (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- Tendentious editing applies to you, who is constantly trying to push your incorrect Tampa POV on the article. News flash: Tampa's cigar industry came from Key West. Key West was a flourishing port city and cigar producer many years before Ybor City was founded. Simon Ybor had his factory in Key West first, along with those Cuban sandwiches that Tampa ignorantly tries to claim originated in Ybor City for tourism purposes. Marc Averette (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- Averette, I literally wrote a book on Tampa/Ybor history. Your take on that history is... let's just say "skewed". And who's this "Simon Ybor" you're referring to? Perhaps you mean Vicente Martinez-Ybor, whose life story I've taught to hundreds of students over the years? You keep demonstrating that you know less about this subject than you think you do.
- But that's beside the point. As I keep saying, it doesn't matter what you think or I think; it's the sources that matter. You continue to ignore and discount and sometimes remove good sources that don't agree with your predetermined POV, which is the crux of the problem. Zeng8r (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- I haven't deleted any sources, I have been doing nothing but adding them for the last few days, unlike you who continuously revert my valid sourced edits. Marc Averette (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- You are again avoiding the central issue - the sources disagree, so all points of view should be included. For every citation that claims a Key West origin, I can find one that points to Tampa. See and here and here, all of which I found in about two minutes of research. And those are in addition to the wide variety of published sources (books and journals) and newspaper articles quoting experts that are already cited.
- For the 17,000th time - historians disagree on this issue. And when the sources disagree, that disagreement / uncertainty should be fairly reflected in the article per clear and unambiguous Wikipolicy. Zeng8r (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- You obviously can't read. The 1st link is 404 error. the 2nd is coverage of an argument between two people on a radio show, not a valid source. The 3rd states this: "In the mid-1800s, the Cuban tobacco industry emerged in Florida, where it first emerged in KEY WEST. Later, tobacco moved north to Tampa,... this marked the RISE of the Cuban sandwich. Rise does not mean it was created there. It means that it started to become popular there. Please learn how to read. Oh, and you might want to read the first comment directly below the article by Carl E. Mott III. He knows what he's talking about, unlike you. Marc Averette (talk) 17:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)