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Christianson, Beckstead, and Morrow refs

Krishna, you added the following:

• Christianson (2005:13) states that chiropractic is used to treat homosexuality (reparative therapy), and Beckstead and Morrow (2004:655) say that chiropractic is reported to be "ineffective in resolving sexual orientation conflicts".

References:

• Beckstead, A L. Morrow S. L. Mormon clients' experiences of conversion therapy: The need for a new treatment approach. . Counseling Psychologist. College Park: Sep 2004.Vol.32, Iss. 5; pg. 651

• Christianson, A.. A Re-emergence of Reparative Therapy. A Peer-Reviewed Article for Contemporary Sexuality readers Contemporary Sexuality, Oct2005, Vol. 39 Issue 10, p8-17, 10p;

and you used this edit summary:

• "Christianson and BnM are peer reviewed and satisfy NPOV policy, which trumps consensus"

1. You are correct that policies trump consensus. That those policies are often the subject of interpretation is another matter.....;-) But your basic premise is correct.
2. You still have to work with other editors in a collaborative manner to get your edits to "stick," even when you have turned your back. Otherwise editors who do not respect policies or who interpret them differently than you do will delete your work. IOW, without collaboration you will be wasting time - your own and ours.
3. To satisfy other editors here, you will need to provide your references in a better manner, and please do it here so we can evaluate them:

a. Provide the precise quotes with some context;

b. Provide on-line sources in the form of URLs.

c. Format your references using the "ref" format we're using here.

I am well aware that on-line sources are not a requirement here, since books are allowable, but we'd like to be able to check this out, and you are the one "making the claim," so we'd like you to help us. -- Fyslee 14:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

KV, you explained that Christianson, writing in a Society newsletter, states that "Other methods employed by reparative therapists include hypnosis, medication, chiropractic adjustments and marital therapy."

Did she give or cite any evidence for this disputed assertion? If so we might at least find the primary sources. How widespread did she say this was? I am curious because in my professional experience as a chiropractor have never heard of this use that you say she says is widespread. Thanks Steth 14:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC) (Also asked on PS talk page)

I too want to know more. Even if this were backed up by excellent resources, and fulfilled all the Misplaced Pages policies normally used to justify inclusion, I think it is such an extremely limited matter as to not be worthy of inclusion, IOW it does not meet the WP:Notability threshhold. It would have the same value as a case study, which often is no better than an anecdote or gossip. I think one could find just about any type of weird action being performed by some idiot in just about any profession. Such rare and extremely fringe actions aren't worthy of mention here. Let's find out just how widely practiced this unusual use of chiropractic adjustments really is. I doubt one could find more than a handful who do it, and they are probably all members of the Christian Chiropractors Association (no offense intended to Christians). There are plenty of other fringe practices that are practiced by many chiros, and they aren't even mentioned yet. Start with them and leave this type of atypical thing alone. If this practice were more widely known and had some type of notoriety and controversiality, IOW had achieved WP:Notability, it would be a very different matter. -- Fyslee 18:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact satisfies all of the above. WPNotability states that for an article to be notable, it must be notable enough that it will be described by multiple sources. The line is not an article, yet it already satisfies the multiple sources requirement. Two peer reviewed sources say chiropractic is used for RT (treating homosexuality). Thats enough for any inclusion. All stated as it is in the sources. KrishnaVindaloo 19:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then let's see the content as requested above. -- Fyslee 19:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

KV, you appear to misunderstand notability, and still have not addressed Fyslee's point above. Sources also must pertain sig POV's with respect to the article's subject matter, not fringe ones. For example, a V RS on the Prince of Waikikamukau might say that he likes sticking Zoloft tablets in his ears because he thinks it improves his hearing. That source could be used in the article on the Prince of Waikikamukau, but not in the articles on Zoloft or hearing impairment, unless it could be shown that a notable portion of the medical community believes in such things.

Thus, your sources may be notable in an article on reparative therapy, which might list the many things (talk therapy, drugs, EMDR, chiro etc.) that would-be reparative therapists have used. But you haven't shown that your sources say (or even that they are V RS's to make the assertion) that using chiro to "cure" gayness represents a sig POV within the chiropractic profession. That's the threshold you need to meet to include it here, if my understanding of NPOV, VER and OR is correct. As a thought experiment, imagine how editors would react if you attempted to add an analogous statement, with the same sources, to articles on marital therapy or medication. They'd object for the same reasons editors here have objected.

Your persistence in being sloppy and downright disingenuous with sources (see: Talk:Pseudoscience, esp. here), editing against consensus, and continuing to wave the red herring of "censorship" is disruptive and inappropriate. Several editors have expressed their frustration with your approach. Having to keep tabs on your edits to make sure they're within guidelines is a waste of editors' time and a source of wikistress. Unless you change course, I believe it's time the WP community considered a sanction of some sort. Jim Butler 21:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

No Jim Butler. I believe the solution is in Gleng's last edit summary here. Its presently miscited. Not a problem, easily corrected. KrishnaVindaloo 02:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It's true that your citations need improvement, but Jim Butler has explained it very well. He is correct and you haven't answered his points yet, nor, for that matter, my request above. Your addition of this material is not going to be a success until you deal with our concerns, and deal with them right here on the talk page. Please stop wasting your own and our time. Either you satisfy our concerns or you won't get anywhere here. Those citations may be appropriate for the article on Reparative therapy, but I don't see them as appropriate here. Keep in mind that I'm a chiroskeptic, but skepticism and criticism needs to be reasonable. What you're proposing smacks of desperation to find some kind of dirt, and you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. As I wrote above, there are plenty of other fringe practices that are practiced by many chiros, and they aren't even mentioned yet. Start with them and leave this type of atypical thing alone. You will be able to find multiple criticisms from many good sources from both within and outside the profession in regards to those matters. There are a couple whole sections that aren't even in the article yet. Start working on them, or, on second thought, don't. Your involvement would likely ruin what could be a valuable addition to the article.

Now please provide the quotes in context here, and the proper and complete citations. Then we can all look at them and determine if they are suitable. Right now we only have your word for them, and we are skeptical of anything you touch. -- Fyslee 05:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well lets have a close look at whats happened in chiropractic shall we? Whats notable is the fact that chiropractic is used as a kind of panacea for all ills due to its pseudoscientific application. So what we really need to do here is to list all of the PS treatments that they use that are mentioned by good sources. So far we have two corroborating sources that state very very clearly that chiropractic is used to treat homosexuality. Schizophrenia, ear ache, asthma, and others come to mind. Does anyone have good references for these conditions so we can list them alongside the chiropractic homosexuality cure? KrishnaVindaloo 05:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Those other matters will be dealt with in due time, but right now we're dealing with the subject of this thread. Don't get off-track here. We have made requests and are waiting for you to provide what we have requested. Please stop wasting our time.

BTW, I don't see that you have yet attempted to add those cites to the Reparative therapy article. That's where they belong, IF they are properly cited. -- Fyslee 05:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee. Here is the core quote: "Other strategies include changing the person's sexual orientation label. According to this idea, the gay person is no longer homosexual by simply adopting a new label as an ex-gay or as a heterosexual - "name it and claim it" theology (Ford, 2001, p. 80). Other methods employed by reparative therapists include hypnosis, medication, chiropractic adjustments and marital therapy."

I don't need to satisfy your concerns at all. I need to take into account your particular bias. I have already satisfied NPOV policy on the lines in question. You have absolutely no choice at all but to assume good faith. I have provided adequate evidence (the citations) that support the lines presented. They are relevant here. In addition, we do need to list all those other pseudoscientific applications of chiropractic, such as schizophrenia treatments, cancer treatments and so on. I seem to remember that some were already on the article a while back, but now they seem to be conspicuously absent. This situation certainly needs remedying. Inclusion of all relevant views is paramount to maintaining NPOV policy. KrishnaVindaloo 10:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the nature of the evidence is now clear. B and M report that one person reported to them that he or she had been treated by chiropractic adjustment to alter sexual orientation and that it failed. I think we have already set the bar to exclude anecdotal evidence, mainly of course to exclude anecdotal reports of beneficial effects of chiropractic. C a private counsellor writing in a society newsletter doesn't report or cite any evidence but makes a casual anecdotal aside, from; doesn't look like objective evidence and certainly no evidence of scale. We know there are occasional loonies around, and it would be extraordinary if there weren't at mleast as many loonies amongst scientists as there are amongsts MDs. Or should we be citing the case of Harold Shipman as evidence that medics are mass murderers?.Gleng 12:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately Gleng, the problem with chiropractic is it is chockablock with such loonies, just as Keating describes in his literature. The homosexuality cure is one of many similar cases. Your interpretation of the source is clearly meant to dismiss the fact. I have written it in a way that is perfectly suited to the source. It is written in a way as to satisfy NPOV policy. No exaggerations, or boosterisms. Just plainly stated views. Chiropractors commonly claim to be able to cure anything with a quick twist of the spine. You can see them making their claims on the street wherever they set up a promotional kiosk. They show diagrams of qi flowing around nerves, with big glowing auras around the body. Their ads are exaggerated and their claims are wild. That doesn't happen with normal medical practitioners. So lets get that list together then! Shall we start with chiropractic cancer treatments? KrishnaVindaloo 13:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

"Chiropractors commonly claim to be able to cure anything with a quick twist of the spine. You can see them making their claims on the street wherever they set up a promotional kiosk. They show diagrams of qi flowing around nerves, with big glowing auras around the body. Their ads are exaggerated and their claims are wild. That doesn't happen with normal medical practitioners." - if that's so patantly true, you should be able to find a V RS stating as much, rather than (as Fyslee aptly put it) scraping the bottom of the barrel for examples that you believe are consistent with a premise you haven't justified. -Jim Butler 18:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Gleng. You have once again accused me of dishonesty. Now show your evidence. KrishnaVindaloo 15:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You insert these references knowing a) that B and M's paper merely mentions that one (1) of the 40 participants in their study claimed (it's a self report study from volunteers) that they had been treated with chiropratic adjustments but claimed that it had not changed their sexual orientation. As evidence for the ineffectiveness of chiropractic in this respect this seems weak. As evidence for the rarity of this as a treatment (only 1 of 40 participants) it seems stronger. It is ludicrous to assert this as evidence of commonusage, yet you insert it nonetheless. C's evidence is even vaguer, she mentions in passing without details or citation of sources that chiropractic has been used to alter sexual orientation, but she provides no evidence; it is a passing aside in a Society newsletter in an article about reparatory therapy for goodness sake. The newsletter does not claim to be peer reviewed, or indeed to be an academic journal. If her paper was peer reviewed it was an an exception. C has an MA but no academic publications listed by ISI, is a private relationship counsellor, and not obviously an authority on chiropractic. Knowing all this, through having it spelt out over and over you persist in claiming that these are reliable and significant sources for this assertion of fact. Dishonest is the civil description of this.Gleng 15:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

So, Gleng. You spend weeks trying to brand me a liar, you chase me across Misplaced Pages in the process, leaving a trail of OR behind you for me to clean up, and now, after I have provided corroborating evidence for my original peer reviewed evidence, you still call me a liar. Now I'm a pretty tolerant chap, but I have my methods. I believe you are going to look pretty shifty now you realize I am going to take a snapshot of your little dismissive episode. Say cheese! KrishnaVindaloo 03:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Gleng and others above; this article is about chiropractic, not reparative therapy. KV's references don't show that the use of chiro to cure gayness is anything more than a fringe view regarding chiropractic: there is nothing to suggest that it's a sig view held among practitioners of chiropractic, consumers of chiro, critics of chiro, etc. The aspect of NPOV that KV is missing is undue weight. "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements." - Jim Butler 17:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jim Butler and Gleng. Do you really think that BnM's study actually proves that chiropractic is good for making homosexuals straight, just because there is only one in forty Mormons who use the treatment? We already have proof from a peer reviewed source (The Resurgence of Reparative Therapy, A Peer Revewed Study.... ) that chiro is used. BnM corroborate Christianson and say it was reported to be useless. NPOV policy is satisfied. End of story. If you don't like it, talk to the administrators or try to get NPOV policy to support pseudoscience yourselves. KrishnaVindaloo 13:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, KV, you're still not addressing the notability issue. Whether that's out of disingenuousness or incomprehension doesn't even matter anymore. You either won't or can't collaborate effectively. Jim Butler 17:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Krishna, you provided this quote:

• "Other methods employed by reparative therapists include hypnosis, medication, chiropractic adjustments and marital therapy."

Now just where does it state that a chiropractor was doing this? No one but a chiropractor can provide a chiropractic "adjustment," which is not the same as a manipulation. The only difference often being the "intention." Only chiropractors believe in the chiropractic vertebral subluxation, and that this mythical lesion can be "corrected" by the use of spinal adjustments. (Now you know my bias!)

The quote seems to strongly imply that it is reparative therapists are employing this method. What's going on here?

You also quite arrogantly wrote:

• "I don't need to satisfy your concerns at all. I need to take into account your particular bias. I have already satisfied NPOV policy on the lines in question. You have absolutely no choice at all but to assume good faith."

1. Tough luck, but you do have to satisfy mine and others concerns. You don't own Misplaced Pages, and you must collaborate with other editors, including those who hold opposing viewpoints. You can be right as hell, but your edits won't survive the moment you turn your back, unless they have been approved by other editors. Get used to it.
2. As far as my bias, I happen to basically hold the same skeptical POV as yourself, but I am disgusted by the way you are doing this. My well-developed and conscious bias (not the same as an uninformed prejudice) is that of chiroskepticism: ()
3. I do have a choice -- I choose to side with your antagonists on this one, until you start collaborating.

-- Fyslee 20:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, Fyslee, you know, I'm not really what I would call a skeptic. I had no particular feeling about chiropractic before I came to the PS article, but I found a bunch of people who were urging me towards the literature to prove that there is no PS issue there. I found PS written explicitly all over the more reliable literature. I have NPOV policy to guide me, so what do I do? I state the facts and find more of the same people calling me a liar. I double check with NPOV policy, and find that those people are working directly against NPOV policy on inclusion of rel views. You can be as disgusted with me as you like. You're not going to blinker me or bully me into restricting views. KrishnaVindaloo 03:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Second attempt to get an answer (never got it, so I'll try again):

Now just what don't you understand here?:

Krishna, you provided this quote:

• "Other methods employed by reparative therapists include hypnosis, medication, chiropractic adjustments and marital therapy."

Now just where does it state that a chiropractor was doing this? No one but a chiropractor can provide a chiropractic "adjustment," which is not the same as a manipulation, the only difference often being the "intention." Only chiropractors believe in the chiropractic vertebral subluxation, and that this mythical lesion can be "corrected" by the use of spinal adjustments. (Now you know my bias!)

The quote seems to strongly imply that it is reparative therapists who are employing this method, and not chiropractors, and therefore it is not chiropractic and doesn't belong in this article! If it belongs anywhere, it would be the Reparative therapy article, and there the best you could do is claim that someone claims that reparative therapists use bla bla bla methods, including chiropractic adjustments. Even then you'd have an uphill battle, unless you could show it was a common practice among Reparative therapists, and not something done by one or two of them. To do that you'd need confirmation from third party sources. If the original claim is really true, it should be possible to find such sources. You'd then have a much stronger case for inclusion in the RT article. -- Fyslee 18:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

Editors here please note this ; they might wish simply to comment on its accuracy, or might wish to add their own evidence. (I really have gone, but I guess this is unfinished business ;) ). On this page, many editors from many different perspectives have contributed to a balanced, thoughtful, reliable, authoritative article, because they have listened to each other with respect, despite differing opinions; it is clearly possible, I just wish that it were more common. Gleng 08:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep, the more the merrier. KrishnaVindaloo 08:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

3RR Violation for KrishnaVindaloo

FYI. Levine2112 16:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The more, the merrier?  ;-) -Jim Butler 06:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and Category:Pseudoscience and core NPOV (pseudoscience issues)

As I've argued elsewhere, I think that those who wish to add cat:PS to alt-med articles that have some sci support (as manipulation does) need to address what WP:NPOVT#Categorisation and related guidelines such as WP:CG and Misplaced Pages:Categorization of people say. For some "sensitive" categories, it is better to think of the category as a set of representative and unquestioned examples, while a list is a better venue for an attempt at completeness. - Jim Butler 03:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Jim Butler, I've heard your arguments before, and they are strongly against core NPOV policy. Explaining PS as science sees it is core NPOV policy. That involves helping the reader to browse articles pertaining to PS. You have persistently worked against that core Misplaced Pages rule. Your actions have been noted. KrishnaVindaloo 05:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No, "core NPOV policy" is adequately described in the first few sections of WP:NPOV, which general principles (along with VER and OR) are the "forest" that some editors miss for the "trees" of those parts of the NPOV tutorial that mention PS specifically. -Jim Butler 06:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Jim Butler. You clearly are working against the core reasons for making an encyclopedia, you are certainly doing your best to fight NPOV policy, and your abusive comments here reflect your attitude. This is a problem article, and a problem group who behave as if they can exempt themselves from common policies. I will put it to the authorities to put you straight. KrishnaVindaloo 07:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

KV, you made the suggestion that the PS category include concepts that have PS qualities. I accepted your suggestion in good faith and applied the category here on the chiro page along with the science category, as using your logic, chiropractic includes science as well. Unfortunately, other editors kept removing the science category and the PS cat went with it. So, it seems that your solution has not worked. While it was a valiant effort to solve a problem, there is nothing in WP policy to support a categorie's use in this manner. On the contrary, Jim Butler's argument is solid and I have yet to see anyone who has been able to make a stronger one. Until it is refuted by policy from higher authority, I find Jim's argument stronger than yours. You are welcome to bring a stronger argument to the table. --Dematt 13:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

KV, again you don't acknowledge the other aspects of NPOV that I raised. Your point about cats helping readers browse is reasonable, but long ago I pointed out that "what links here" accomplishes the same thing, and you've never bothered to address my point. So, I'm sorry, but we're at an impasse and I've lost patience with you. If I need to change course, I'll accept feedback from other editors and will do so. I hope you consider the same. It's possible that this isn't a "problem group", and you need to consider a course correction. sincerely, Jim Butler 03:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the situation is crystal clear. I will leave it to the authorities to put you straight. A very clear case is emerging. Btw, nobody yet has mentioned any treatments beyond backpain or headache that chiropractors still do. The literature is very clear; chiropractors commonly still do their alternative medicine using vitalism concepts, talk of holism, and claim they can treat conditions outside the range of the one they have some poor support for. They say it can be used to treat anything. So this list of everything else; give me a hint, is the list long, or really long? KrishnaVindaloo 04:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

A hint: I've never heard talk of chiropractic curing blindness, nightmares, madness, or stupidity for instance - but there was one well reported cure of curing deafness (see the article), so there might be hope. Many editors have worked hard to exclude any claims of efficacy or otherwise that are supported only by weak or anecdotal evidence. Not only do you want to insert one of your own, you are now inviting others to do so. Chiropractic does I think claim some efficacy in curing headache - are you trying to drum up custom for them by any chance?Gleng 13:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

No, but if I don't present relevant views, then I am whitewashing the subject. KrishnaVindaloo 15:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Whitewash???? See Gleng 15:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, whitewash. See .KrishnaVindaloo 15:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If we're going to cite "conditions" for which chiro is used, then the source has to be a V RS presenting a notable view. As WP:NPOV#Undue_weight says: "views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." If we can't show that use of chiro to "treat", e.g., gayness, can't be shown to be more than a tiny minority view, then it doesn't belong in WP except perhaps in reparative therapy. KV's pressing this and related points is not only contrary to most editors' interpretation of NPOV, it's disruptive and an e.g. of WP:POINT. - Jim Butler 19:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Please note: "8. Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." From Misplaced Pages:Categorization --Hughgr 20:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Concerning including all things that chiropractors treat brings us back to the subluxation. Chiropractors treat subluxations, or some formation of it. Most people go to chiropractors for musculoskeletal problems that chiropractors treat with manual procedures and some, if not most, probably use various physiotherapies such as electrical modalities, ultrasound, diathermy, etc. and probably some level of other health advice relating to exercise and activity as well as nutritional advice. The vast majority are pretty cut and dry low back pain or neck pain or sport and repetitive type injuries related to their lifestyles. I would venture to guess that most of these patients may also have concomittant conditions such as diabetes, obesity, allergies, gastritis, and just about anything else that you can think of. The difficulty is in determining whether the adjustment is affecting these conditions while treating the spinal condition. Occasionally, if signs and symptoms suggest, we use some blood analysis to assess things such as rheumatoid arthritis, Lupus, Reiters, or other systemic inflammatory conditions using C-reactive protein, and Sed rates. Occasionally, midback pain will cause abdominal pain that might mimic pancreatitis or cholecystitis, so the we might run a serum amylase or SGOT, etc. to rule out organ dysfunction. Occasionally, patients will have positive blood work for one of these conditions and after being properly informed, they decide to try adjustments for a period. Some respond and some don't. Those that don't follow up with their MD or we'll refer them through my network.

All the while, it is important to note that we must always be vigilant in watching for things that are red flags; night pain, contractures, hyperreflexias, double vision, sudden onset headaches, ataxias, etc., so we constantly evaluate for signs and symptoms that require other services.

Essentially, I think our daily routines are similar to the GP who handles 90% of his (medical type)cases easily with conservative methods, all the while looking out for those life threatening conditions that require the tougher decisions and specialists. They have the added complicated medication algorithoms to work through and the major problems require more advanced hospital based procedures. Some of his patients have back pain as well and he treats with medication. Some respond and some don't. Those that don't may get referred to Fyslee or myself or orthopedists or neurologists.

So, basically we treat patients with all kinds of conditions, but we concentrate on the spine and overall health of the patient and let the MDs take care of the medicine. -- Dematt 07:32, 21 October 2006

Yep well thats all very convincing and has machines that go "ping!" but your treatment is extremely limited and weakly supported. You have just described a con setup whereby the patient is led to believe that a chiropractor is a primary care expert, whereas, they are really just an alternative therapy provider who applies placebos. KrishnaVindaloo 07:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I do think some consider us primary care experts, but an argument is made for the newer noemclature of portal of entry. What you have described could apply to all healthcare providers. That's the point that Gleng has been trying to make; that if we call chiropractic PS then we would have to call all healthcare PS. Thanks for bringing that out. --Dematt 10:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me, Dematt. I'll call chiropractic PS, and you can call all healthcare PS. Thats pretty much how scientists see chiropractors, and pretty much how chiropractors see the rest of the world, according to the literature (Keating etc). KrishnaVindaloo 11:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Please understand that I am saying that I have yet to see verifiable and reliable sources that have determined either chiropractic or medicine PS. I have seen biased and unreliable or unverifiable sources and I have seen improperly referenced sources. I am saying that if we use your rationale for calling some behaviors pseudoscientific, we would have to call some MD behavior pseudoscientific as well, and I think everyone agrees that is not a correct use of the word. Are you at least seeing my POV, or are you just seeing a chiropractor using a "pseudoscientific defense mechanism", because if that is the case, any further conversation with you is only digging a deeper hole. I don't think WP wants us to have that kind of relationship. We are supposed to be fellow editors using NPOV. --Dematt 01:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

What Dematt? Are you saying that you are tired of going 'round and 'round in Krishna's circle game? We have been doing this for months thanks largely to KV trying to pass off his opinions as facts, unsourced as they may be. Because he seems to have some kind of bias against chiropractic, then editors in several articles will continue to go 'round and 'round in Krishna's circle game.

But he is entitled to his opinions, after all this is WP and we must assume good faith on all editors musn't we?(and you know what happens when you assume) Steth 02:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Length

Can section 5 be trimmed/ moved into other articles? Good stuff but maybe overdetailed for this, the lead article?Gleng 15:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree Gleng, perhaps a short description and move the bulk to Chiropractic school but rename that article to cover the broader info. What do you think? --Hughgr 20:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It would be easier to do it real justice where it has more space. The Chiropractic school article is misnamed anyway (should have been schools, plural...). How about starting an article named Chiropractic education moving the bulk of section five there, and all of Chiropractic school. (Okay, I've done it now.) Then track down the very few places that link to them and leave redirects.

Of course section five should be replaced with a short paragraph and the wikilink. -- Fyslee 12:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Now the FCLB information needs to be removed from both articles, leaving only a short paragraph. I can't do it now, so I'll let others finish and polish up these changes. -- Fyslee 12:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Fylsee, that was a simply awesome job! Great job with the chiropractic education article. That was really good work. Thank you very much. --Dematt 01:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, you talk of removing things, but nothing about making the article concise in encyclopedic terms. Why that particular bias I wonder? KrishnaVindaloo 04:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a veiled accusation... If you would just read the subject of this thread and look at my edit history at the time, you'd see that within a few minutes I created a new article by copying information that makes this article far too long. This was done in response (the reason for this thread) to the "Long" article template being added to the top of the article by an administrator. This is one way of making an article more concise and encyclopedic. The information is good, so it shouldn't get deleted, but just moved. -- Fyslee 07:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Question - answering source

I am skeptical about The New England Skeptics Society. An MD with a bug up his craw about why he hates things, writes articles in a negative and highly editorialized tone. (No, I am not talking about Stephen Barrett Enterprises...donations gladly accepted!) Worse, he makes statements and his 'ideas' are not sourced. Just plain nonsense. So why is this allowed in an encyclopedia? It is unverified, unreliable, and the statements are not referenced. Notable? Why are they notable? New England Skeptics Society? Like the Witches and Warlocks Society? OR The He-man's Women Hatin' Society? (From the Little Rascals)

I think it should be removed, so I have. Steth 03:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I have restored it. It is a significant opposing viewpoint, so POV deletism and suppressionism is definitely unwelcome, very unwiki behavior, and no wiki-legitimate policy reasons have been given, only personal dislike. You are welcome to your dislike, but this is the section for critical External links. We are writing an encyclopedia that covers all sides of the subject. There are rules governing links used as External links. Familiarize yourself with those rules. -- Fyslee 04:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Does every critical external link has to be fought over? This is ridiculous. Its a legitamate skeptics society (ie its a real organization with members and meetings, and they even put out a neat podcast), and it follows the rules for external links. And he is a Neurologist. I see no problem. --Havermayer 06:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes its a reliable organization and a reliable source (author). I do see a problem though. The article is full of useful explanations that clarify the majority view and it is not being used as such. It is full of clarifications of the pseudoscientific status of the theories of chiropractic and explains why they are pseudoscientific. It also explains why the group behaviour is pseudoscientific. Thus it is one of the sources (it corroborates closely with others) that can help to give the majority view the primacy that it so desperately needs in this article. Your suggestions are welcome. And if you could help me compile that list of PS applications of chiropractic, it would also help highlight the distinct features of chiropractic. Sort of blow away the fog, and resolve the whitewash. I'm hoping for some "critical mass" on this one. KrishnaVindaloo 09:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is it significant? A neurologist writes most of the articles on his website, makes lots of highly editorialized statements about what he feels, doesn't source them, and this is significant? Do we just accept them because he is a neurologist? Then why doesn't he write about neurology!? This so-called society is more of a coven. Not significant in my view. We heard from the supporters, any views opposing this being used as a 'source'? Steth 11:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and who are the officers/members? Steth 11:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

As for your question, Perry DeAngelis is the executor director, Evan Bernstein is the technical consultant and chairman of the Conneticut chapter. Robert Novella is the vice president. There's probably more, as I only know about the above because they're featured on the podcast.

The New England skeptical Society itself has hundreds of members, and their podcast is one of the more popular science podcasts and is listened to over 7000 people. The hold frequent meetings and picnics . The James Randi Educational Foundation helps produce it, and James Randi has a regular spot on the show. Steven Novell's appeared on several television programs, such as Bullshit!. How "significant" does someone have to be in your view? Also, part 2 is referenced. His training as an MD and a Neurologist would help him asses the validity of chiropractic theory. --Havermayer 12:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The prof in question represents the majority scientific view, as can be corroborated by the petition signed by thousands and circulated to keep chiropractic out of various universities in the States: based mostly upon chiropractic's relentless pseudoscientific doctrines. Not only is his view strongly representative, it also has high explaining power, and is eminently quotable. He understands fully the pseudoscientific nature of chiropractic because he is a neurologist, and sees the banal stupidity of chiropractic's ridiculously faulted and superstitious subluxation theory. KrishnaVindaloo 14:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see a rational discussion again. Steth asks a fair question, because any list of external links requires some selection. If the answer is it's there because this is one of the strongest, that's a good case in itself. Steth doesn't think it appears to be a very strong source of criticism, because it seems to be a parochial organisation and because the content isn't argued logically and rationally, but in the absence of better links, why not leave it? In the end it is the reader who sees these things and decides.Gleng 16:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I do agree it does not use good argument technique and does not reference reliable sources, so as an opinion article, I think it does state opinions held by several skeptical groups in the "ring". At least is does not use advertising. So, if we do have to have critical opinion papers resourced, perhaps it is more of a heading problem again. --Dematt 16:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

My only issue here is that User:131.104.138.61 seems to be here to just spam that link on many articles. Review the user's edit history and you will see. Is there a Misplaced Pages policy against such actions? Levine2112 19:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Ack, sorry about that. User 131.104.138.61 is me when I use a public computer and forget to log in. I'm fond of the ness site and think its a great resource up there with skepdic, so I figured that I could add their links to various articles since I'm usually too timid to actually change the article themselves (I have difficulty thinking out how to rephrase things). So sorry again. --Havermayer 20:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Please make note of external link spamming policy. To an outside admin, it may seem as though you may be abusing Misplaced Pages to boost the amount of external links pointing to your favorite site. Levine2112 21:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh sorry. I'll make sure to check to see if its completely neccesary to post a link next time, or do some googling to see if there's other links if skepdic and other skeptical sites don't have anythign on it. --Havermayer 21:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Havermayer's actions have nothing to do with link spamming, since the links are specifically chosen, are on-topic, as well as being to a non-commercial information site. The link spamming problem is concerned with commercial links, especially when placed by bots. They are to a website or specific URL that gets placed all over the place, often off-topic, to great annoyance to editors who have to then delete them. Fortunately there are also bots who do that job. Using various sources is of course a good idea, but if an article or website is on topic, then use it. -- Fyslee 21:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would've been better to cite this section instead which specifically states:

• Contribute cited text, not bare links. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a link farm. If you have a source to contribute, first contribute some facts that you learned from that source, then cite the source. Don't simply direct readers to another site for the useful facts; add useful facts to the article, then cite the site where you found them. You're here to improve Misplaced Pages -- not just to funnel readers off Misplaced Pages and onto some other site, right?

and...

• Don't gratuitously set off our spam radar. There are certain stylistic behaviors that will say "spam!" loud and clear to anyone who's watching: ... Adding the same link to many articles. The first person who notices you doing this will go through all your recent contributions with an itchy trigger finger on the revert button. And that's not much fun.

As I said, we know Havermayer's intention here may very well be altuistic/innocent, however to an outside admin, it may seem as though he may be abusing Misplaced Pages to boost the amount of external links pointing to his favorite site. I'm just trying to protect him and inform us all. Levine2112 01:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Its not a problem at all. I have taken note of the Novella information, and will write it into the article with appropriate corroboration. KrishnaVindaloo 02:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll do the same as well. --Havermayer 05:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Because...

(first two entries copied from Talk:MDBrownMSW)

Because it's quoting from the report. Otherwise that section is an attempt to deflect attention from the actual involvement of chiropractors in the rate of injuries. They are still the major players. That report just showed that there were a few cases where injuries caused by a non chiropractor had been attributed to chiropractors. This is an error of misattribution. Another more serious error is underreporting. I have collected much of the research on this subject here. The risks are small, but are catastrophic when they occur. The lucky ones die. There is no excuse, considering that most upper cervical manipulations/adjustments are unnecessary, and other -- less risky -- techniques are available. -- Fyslee 18:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand why the misattribution is of merit. However, the ethnicity of the barber is meaningless, unless it would have been better or worse if the barber were Brazilian, Icelandic, Pangean or whatever. If is actually quoting the report, it belongs in quotation marks. (I am copying this to the talk page for Chiropractic.)Mdbrownmsw 18:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The mention of the Indian barber is the responsibility of the original author. The ethnicity isn't totally off-base, since Indian barbers, unlike modern American or British barbers, actually include treatments of various kinds among their services, including neck manipulation and tongue scraping. -- Fyslee 18:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree on all counts. There was a point when American barbers treated all sorts of conditions up into the middle of the 20th century as well. Without knowing, the fact that it was an Indian barber may be significant. I didn't see it as derogatory or discriminatory or inflammatory, just a properly referenced statement. --Dematt 18:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that the report just showed that there were a few cases where injuries caused by a non chiropractor had been attributed to chiropractors. The report actually statesthat this was quite common: This study reveals that the words chiropractic and chiropractor commonly appear in the literature to describe SMT, or practitioner of SMT, in association with iatrogenic complications, regardless of the presence or absence of professional training of the practitioner involved. Commonly. Please don't dismiss this as a "few" cases. "Commonly" is the word the report used. I also went back and completed the quote from the conclusion. This report is certainly insinuating that the SMT researchers either had an agenda or were grossly negligent in their work. Either way, the full quote should stand; considering that we are taking up so much of this article with mention of such a minor/nonexistent risk. You have more of a risk of stroke putting your head back to get washed at a salon (or Indian barber as it were) than an upper cervical adjustment by a chiropractor; yet I'm quite certain that the articles for Shampoo or Salon or Hair Cut have not mention of strokes as a safety risk. I really think this whole stroke thing is petty propoganda brought to the media's attention by fearful competitors. It's Wilk all over again. Honestly, I think our article makes too big a deal about it and if we are trying to be economical, I think there's a lot of fat in the "Safety" which could use some trimming. Levine2112 19:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have access to Terrett's full report? NCMIC used to have it, but I didn't download it back then, and now they have removed access to it. I'd love to really see the statistics, because the short summary is ambiguous and doesn't reveal all the details.

The best study to date on the safety issue is this one:

• Manipulation of the cervical spine: risks and benefits. Richard P Di Fabio, PhD, PT. PHYS THER, Vol. 79, No. 1, January 1999, pp. 50-65

It has abundant proof of many deaths and injuries, and he adjusts his figures to take account of Terrett's observations. Still plenty of deaths caused by chiropractors, even after removing the few cases wrongly attributed to them. This is a misattribution error, which is not the same as the under-reporting error, which Ernst found to be nearly 100%. Yes, the risk is small, but it is avoidable and inexcusable. I have collected a lot of the evidence here. I know the title is rather harsh, but it wasn't my idea. It does catch people's attention! Make sure you read my introductory disclaimer and my concluding recommendations. I don't limit them to chiropractors.

We haven't even begun to deal with the safety issue. Right now it's a whitewash that totally ignores patient safety, in exchange for a defense of the profession. That's a pretty unethical use of priorities. I have just left it alone, but it needs to be cleaned up and the patient placed back in the high seat. It is the "patient's" safety that is supposed to be the subject of that section (it was originally before you totally revamped it), not the profession's reputation. Whitewashing isn't NPOV. -- Fyslee 00:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, the research you are pointing to above deals specifically with upper cervical manipulations administered by Physical Therapists... not Chiropractors. Taking this research in conjunction with the chiropractic research about upper cervical adjustments, it is a fair assessment to say that you are much safer getting a chiropractic upper cervical adjustment than a physical therapist's neck manipulation.

Oh, and not that you are in any way obligated to show both sides, but your website only shows evidence in favor of your side... that chiropractors are dangerous. Clearly, there is much evidence to the contrary. Perhaps you only list the research which supports your conclusion because you are falling victim to confirmation bias or True Disbeliever's Syndrome. I would find it less disingenous to accurately depict both sides of the argument... but then your website would actually be promoting chiropractic instead of bashing it (as the accurate depicition is that chiropractic is safe! Levine2112 23:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

???? Did you even read it? The study was designed to examine the role of PTs in ALL injuries related to manipulation of the cervical spine (MCS). Thus it studied the role of chiropractors and others as well. It revealed that some injuries were caused by PTs, and no deaths were caused by them. It also revealed many injuries and many deaths caused by chiropractors. It is the most complete and in depth study of the subject to my knowledge. It didn't sweep anything under the carpet, or whitewash the role of PTs in the process. But it also reveals the large role of chiropractors in the problem. Lest anyone think I'm picking on chiropractors, they can read the disclaimer and conclusions written in my coverage of the subject here. -- Fyslee 06:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Page size

This page is far too long. Suggestions for splitting welcome.--Light current 22:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

On Oct. 22 I moved a large portion and thus reduced the size. -- Fyslee 23:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Any idea how long is too long? --Dematt 23:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the current recommendation is still around 32k --Light current 00:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Check out the official Wikipeadia article length recomendations. Chiropractic is currently 87 KB. The official recommendation is: >50 KB Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time). The questions are: Does the scope of Chiropractic justify the added reading time? (How in the hell do we determine that!) And, if we are going to split, how? Does "Chiropractic History" get its own article? Do we tighten the safety section as I recommend above? Other suggestions? Do we do anything? Levine2112 00:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It would take some awful patient NPOV work, but the safety and science sections could be shortened and then given their own articles. Then Practice styles could be shortened and given articles, too. But we would lose a lot of cohesion that helps keeps this article neutral and stable and interesting. --Dematt 00:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I know. It's almost too daunting to fathom. Levine2112 00:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well Im not an expert on this by any means and indeed am a very recent newcomer to this page. However, having had a quick look at the content, it seems to me that the easiest first step would be to split off the history of chiropractic into a new page. That would halve the article size. Comments? --Light current 00:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree. The history section is Dematt's baby, and he's done a tremendous job, but it is by far the largest section, and could be summarized shortly, with a link to it's own article, where he could place even more of all the good stuff he's been collecting. I suggest Dematt copy (only deleting when ready) the material to the new Chiropractic history article and write a good lead there. Then he could use the lead as the replacement here, with a link to the main article. I suspect the average person might get bored with reading a lot of history, which to us is fascinating, but, for the average reader, is probably like reading the geneologies in the Old Testament: UI begat II, which begat EI, which was interpreted by DDP, who begat BJP, who begat marketing, which begat.....ad libitum....;-) -- Fyslee 00:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this, with some hesitation about taking the Wilk mention from this page. It already has a reference to its main article, and I think that the little we do say about it puts a huge perspective on the science section. Levine2112 00:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

We should be careful to always leave a short description (by using the header from the main article) in place of the moved material. -- Fyslee 01:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

How about we just delete the rest of the article and leave the history:)

Okay, Okay, you win, give me a few days to get it together. I know you're right.

--Dematt 01:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

History delete record

First delete goes from 87 to 73 Kb --Dematt 01:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Second delete goes from 73 to 68 Kb --Dematt 02:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Third delete goes from 68 to 64 Kb --Dematt 02:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Fourth delete goes from 64 to 61 Kb --Dematt 02:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll stop there and start working on the Chiropractic history article. --Dematt 02:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Nice work on this. I was amazed to see all of this progress when I woke up this morning! Thank you so much. Levine2112 17:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it wasn't exactly a labor of love, but sometimes you have to clean out the closets in order to fit more in;) BTW, we still have a large article. I think Safety and Science sections need work, too. We can say exactly the same thing with 1/4 the words. What do you think. --Dematt 00:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd ditch the entire Safety section all together. It basically says that chiropractic is safe. Is a one-in-a-million hypothesis of danger even worth mentioning? The only reason why the stroke risk cold even be considered notable is that organizations such as Neck911 and Chirobase have an agenda of blowing this propaganda out of proportion just to keep it controversial. Basically, whether it is 0 in 5 million, 1 in 3 million or even 1 in a million, is it really worth mentioning in our encyclopedic article? My POV is "no". If there needs to be a sub-article called "Chiropractic Safety" so be it. Levine2112 01:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen anything else within healthcare with a safety section? --Dematt 01:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Some yes, some no. For instance, acupuncture does while surgery does not. Herbalism does while pharmaceuticals does not. Seems odd, no? Levine2112 03:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

There does seem to be a double standard. What about moving it all to spinal manipulation? --Dematt 03:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It does seem that the brunt of this does focus on Spinal Manipulation. However, because of the confusion (deliberate or not) the safety issues are inextricably tied together. This is a tough. But I guess my main contention is that Chiropractic is one of the safest healthcare systems going today and yet we are devoting so much precious article real estate to the discussion of safety statistics which at the worst rival your chances of getting struck by lightning. Levine2112 03:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, we leave a snippet here and move the details of SMT related stuff to SMT. What do you think? --Dematt 03:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds okay by me... depending on the snippet of course. Levine2112 04:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll give it a try. Feel free to chime in. --Dematt 04:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, moved a lot, but it still leaves the jist of it. The article after First Safety Delete goes from 61 to 54 Kb. --Dematt 05:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

And according to Wiki policy, page size limits don't include charts and graphics and references and external links, so I think we should be all right now. Levine2112 01:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well that is certainly good news! Thank goodness. I was getting depressed. --Dematt 02:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Safety edits

Fyslee, I think the edit you did here is fine and is better than what I had since it re-phrases the text (which I was lazy and copied word-for-word). I just wanted to note however, that in your edit summary you stated you are removing a piece of it because it is a POV and untrue statement. As for the absolute truth of the statement... well that is not for us to determine, but do note that the POV is from the author of the sourced material and not myself. (As I said I was lazy and I copied it verbatim.) Regardless, I prefer your rewritten version as it is more concise. (Smaller page size!) Levine2112 17:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know it's Bill Lauretti's POV (1995 and outdated), and the whole document is essentially the ACA's position on the subject (he works for them.) We had him on the Healthfraud Discussion List for quite some time, with many interesting discussons. No matter what arguments and evidence were presented by MDs, PTs, laymen, and several other DCs, he always twisted the evidence to ensure that patient safety was forgotten, and the profession was portrayed as safe, which is the old apples and oranges problem, placed within a straw man framework. No one is questioning that chiropractic, as a profession, is relatively safe since DCs don't treat the same types of serious and emergency problems as MDs and surgeons. The comparison he made was very misleading and unfair. It's still in there doing it's misleading best, but now worded slightly less POV. I would have considered it better to retain the actual quotes and conclusion from some of the best chiropractic researchers in the world, right here from Denmark. These people are really sharp and do good research! They don't recommend upper cervical adjustments.

The best study so far on the subject hasn't even been mentioned, and it has plenty of good statistics:

In a study of the risks and benefits of cervical spine manipulation (MCS), 177 cases that were reported in 116 articles published between 1925 and 1997, were analyzed.

Summary:

Manipulation of the cervical spine (MCS) is used in the treatment of people with neck pain and muscle-tension headache. The purposes of this article are to review previously reported cases in which injuries were attributed to MCS, to identify cases of injury involving treatment by physical therapists, and to describe the risks and benefits of MCS. One hundred seventy-seven published cases of injury reported in 116 articles were reviewed. The cases were published between 1925 and 1997. The most frequently reported injuries involved arterial dissection or spasm, and lesions of the brain stem. Death occurred in 32 (18%) of the cases. Physical therapists were involved in less than 2% of the cases, and no deaths have been attributed to MCS provided by physical therapists. Although the risk of injury associated with MCS appears to be small, this type of therapy has the potential to expose patients to vertebral artery damage that can be avoided with the use of mobilization (nonthrust passive movements). The literature does not demonstrate that the benefits of MCS outweigh the risks. Several recommendations for future studies and for the practice of MCS are discussed.

Key Words: Effectiveness, Physical therapy, Risk, Spinal manipulation, Vertebrobasilar accident.

When the type of practitioner was determined using Terrett's modifications, the number of chiropractors involved in cases of MCS injury decreased slightly, and the numbers of cases attributed to physicians, physical therapists, and other individuals (ie, a barber, a kung-fu practitioner, and a masseur) increased (Fig. 2). In addition, the number of cases where the practitioner was later reported (by the original authors of the case report) to be unknown increased slightly (Fig. 2). The overall pattern of practitioners involved in MCS-related injuries, however, did not change with Terrett's adjustments.

I find the misuse of Terrett's discovery of minor "misattributions" (not the same as the nearly 100% rate of "underreporting") to be disingenuous, and it undermines the credibility of those who do it. I hope you can help to combat this prioritizing of a profession's reputation at the expense of patient safety. The risk is indeed low, but it shouldn't be hidden or denied, especially since other methods of treating the upper cervical spine are available, most adjustments of this area are totally unnecessary, and the Danish chiropractic researchers clearly recommend against it.

The more it gets denied and downplayed, the greater will be the determination to place more emphasis on it. The denial itself creates a situation that makes it a greater issue. The ethical thing to do is ask "just how many really do get injured and die because of upper cervical adjustments?" We don't know for sure, but we know it happens, and that even the confirmed cases are often unreported, remaining the exclusive knowledge of some local neurologists, but never making it into the national statistics. That doesn't even take into account those who are simply buried without anyone having a clue about the real cause of death.

The issue applies to all who use upper cervical manipulation, and not just to chiropractors. It just happens to be more of an issue with them, because they are the ones who do it most, and they are the ones who deny the risks. Other groups are documenting their injuries and requiring informed consent. -- Fyslee 22:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The possibility of an ever-so-slight risk is still mentioned here in the article. I believe the amount of space dedicated to its mention is now more proportional with the theoretically tiny possibility of a risk. The Terrett's discovery of accidental and purposeful "misattribution" is not mentioned here any longer. I certainly feel it still should remain intact on the Spinal Adjustment page. The misattibutions speak a lot about the researchers who associated VBAs with chiropractic upper cervical adjustments. They were poor researchers; either glossly negligent in their data collection or extremely biased and agenda-motivated. Just more evidence of the very real conspiracy against chiropractic. With Wilk, Neck911, those ridiculous billboards and bus ads in Bridgeport, clearly this assessment is not disingenuous.

The research mentioned above deals with Physical Therapists. Their track record with upper cervical manipulation appears to be worse than chiropractors, according to this research compared to the ones specically about chiropractic adjustments. Given this, the research all seems to suggest that you are much safer getting a upper cervical chiropractic adjustment by a chiropractor than an upper cervical spinal manipulation by a PT. This isn't a surprise, since chiropractors are specifically trained to administer this very precise adjustment.

If you are more partial to believe Danish researchers than others, you might want to read this one from JMPT. It seems that chiropractors in Denmark do take x-rays and receive an inceasing number of referrals from Danish MDs. Levine2112 23:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

???? Did you even read it? The study was designed to examine the role of PTs in ALL injuries related to manipulation of the cervical spine (MCS). Thus it studied the role of chiropractors and others as well. It revealed that some injuries were caused by PTs, and no deaths were caused by them. It also revealed many injuries and many deaths caused by chiropractors. It is the most complete and in depth study of the subject to my knowledge. It didn't sweep anything under the carpet, or whitewash the role of PTs in the process. But it also reveals the large role of chiropractors in the problem. Lest anyone think I'm picking on chiropractors, they can read the disclaimer and conclusions written in my coverage of the subject here. -- Fyslee 06:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I just read the summary which you provided above which makes no reference to chiropractic. Only PTs. Next time please be more clear in your instructions. Thanks. Levine2112 21:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee makes a good point that the surgeries are for the more difficult cases. BUT, one needs to consider what percent of those that may have responded to a more conservative care such as mobilization or adjustment. If one in 4000 deaths - how many deaths is that? We also have to consider the medication option; complications from Ibuprofen and Tylenol and Vioxx and Celebrex and Naproxen and Flexeril (what is it; something like 400,000 deaths a year from properly used prescription medication?)- I imagine the numbers start to equal out. There are other factors that neurologists do consider; that the symptoms of eminant CVA are headaches and neck pain. The patients have just shown up at the DC first. The challenge is to predict who these people are. So far there is no sure fire way to know, but that doesn't mean we don't keep trying to find out. Also, there is also the consideration that these types of accidents seem to happen only in patients with connective tissue disorders. And these numbers include patients that had been to a chiropractor several months prior - is that important? Did they have other predisposing factors? Until somebody writes something important about these numbers, we're all just barking at each other with no end in sight. So really we probably have it pretty close. --Dematt 04:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. All of these reports are just speculations. Who is to say whose speculation is truly better? Levine2112 21:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Added quote

(Copied from above)After reviewing Strangs book for "auditory" below, I came across this. I couldn't find a ref online so I'll type what he quoted for review. This is a quote by Joseph Janse of National Chiropractic College in 1976 titled "The Wholistic Concept of Health Care Management", found in V. Strangs book called Principles and Practice of Chiropractic p.26

"Unless pathology is demonstrable under the microscope, as in the laboratory or by roentgenograms, to them it does not exist. For years the progressive minds in chiropractic have pointed out this deficiency. With emphasis they have maintained the fact that prevention is so much more effective than attempts at a cure. They pioneered the all-important principle that effective eradication of disease is accomplished only when it is in its functional (beginning) phase rather than its organic (terminal) stage. It has been their contention that in general the doctor, the therapist and the clinician have failed to realize exactly what is meant by disease processes, and have been satisfied to consider damaged organs as disease, and to think in terms of sick organs and not in terms of sick people. In other words, we have failed to contrast disease with health, and to trace the gradual deteriorization along the downward path, believing almost that mild departures from the physiological normal were of little consequence, until they were replaced by pathological changes..."

I couldn't find the original on the web, does anyone have access to it. I guess we could use Strang's, its a secondary ref. I guess that shows we can all get along :) What do ya'll think?--Hughgr 08:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it is an important aspect in chiropractic thinking that is well stated an well referenced. I think it would go well in the chiropractic approach to healthcare section. We might need to paraphrase or quote the important aspects, or put the whole thing in quotes. See what you can do and we can work with it. --Dematt 12:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you already did it:) What are you a mindreader? --Dematt 12:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and you are thirsty :) But you neglected to answer my above question :) how should we make the reference? Or is it good like it is?--Hughgr 19:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

OMG YOU ARE RIGHT! Dang you are good.. and yes it needs sourcing if you don't want Fyslee to zap it:) --Dematt 00:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the source I used is V. Strang's book (see above), but it's a quote, so should we find the original or go with strang's as a secondary ref.....you make the call!--Hughgr 02:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Prevention did not originate with chiropractic, nor is it unique to it. (There isn't much preventive medicine thinking in endless adjustments, which is a common practice.) The statement implies some things (the hidden straw man attacks on "allopaths") that are not true. It looks like anti-medical propaganda (woops, it is!).

Here's a rebuttal from G. Douglas Andersen, DC (who doesn't see much prevention of anything):

"Conversely, how many thousands of people have been turned off by those who practice with a "philosophy" geared toward overutilization driven by greed? Where is the literature to support the "catastrophic effects" the vast majority of the people on this planet supposedly suffer because they are not receiving regular manipulations? Where are the insurance studies to prove that people who go to the chiropractor 15 or 20 times a year, whether they have pain or not, have fewer injuries, less illness, longer lives, or lower health care costs?" Originally from Dynamic Chiropractic

-- Fyslee 20:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

He looks hipporcritical to me.--Hughgr 00:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you referring to that might be construed as hypocritical? -- Fyslee 10:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like we need to do some of those studies, huh. I wonder if they have them for Lipitor, yet;) --Dematt 00:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the biggest problems are first defining health and second being able to measure health.--Hughgr 02:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Manipulation vs Adjustment

I am a Tri I student at a Chiropractic college and I noticed that Manipulation has been subistuted for Adjustment with no differentiation made between the two. From my limited exposure to Chiropractic I have been taught that a difference exists between the two. A manipulation is, as defined in Gatterman's Foundations of Chiropractic Subluxation second revision pg 12, "a manual procedure that involves a directed thrust to move a joint past the physiological range of motion without exceeding the anatomic limit." Where as an adjustment is defined as "any chiropractic theraputic procedue that uses controlled force, leverage, direciton, amplitude, and velocity directed at specific joints or anatomical regions."

To me this shows a distiction which should be made clear in the article. A chiropractic adjustment is not a manipulation. An adjustment has a specific force, direction, and velocity as well as a specific contact. A person popping their own knuckles could be considered to be administering a manipulation because afterall the only prerequisites for performing a manipulation involve a thrust and moving the joint past the phsiological range of motion without surpassing the anatomic limit. That is something that should be made clear.91z4me 01:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi 91z4me, the distinction your seeking is on the Spinal adjustment article. While I agree with your sentiment, an effort is being made to reduce this pages total size, we can't put everything we want on this one page. :)--Hughgr 02:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree you need to bring that to the spinal adjustment page to help differentiate the two. --Dematt 04:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome 91z4me. You are right. There really should be a separate article for Joint manipulation, where the chiropractic intention (correction of VS) is not included (which is often the only difference). Right now the Spinal adjustment article is the place to make distinctions. The broad definition of manipulation you cite can certainly include non-specific movements, but in practice (for non-DCs) the practice is usually very specific, including specific force, direction, velocity, and specific contact. It involves "controlled force, leverage, direciton, amplitude, and velocity directed at specific joints or anatomical regions," the only difference (from chiropractic) being the intention and the indications and contraindications. -- Fyslee 11:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now you can check out the new article - Joint manipulation. Much is contained in the Spinal adjustment article, but I have added more refs and information, as well as making sure that readers understand that the risks apply to all professions using manipulation/adjustment, not just to chiropractors, even though they are using it 95%(?) of the time. Some of what I have added there can also be used in the Spinal adjustment article. -- Fyslee 16:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

References (for whole page -- keep this section at bottom)

1. Di Fabio RP. "Manipulation of the Cervical Spine: Risks and Benefits" Phys Ther. 1999 Jan;79(1):50-65. PMID: 9920191 Current link
2. Terrett AGJ: Misuse of the literature by medical authors in discussing spinal manipulative therapy injury. JMPT 1995;18:203. PubMed - PMID: 7636409

new lead

Trying to make the lead representative of the article. I think all that needs to be added is the science section (VS is covered in the first paragraph). Good luck on coming up with something everybody can agree upon. :) --Hughgr 05:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

PS-I know you like it Fyslee but I hate having a reference section on the talk page. :) I vote to remove it. --Hughgr 05:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I like having it here is when the talk page is used for its intended purpose - to work on proposed text in the article. This way we can see if the refs actually work and discuss them. When the talk page is used as a discussion group, the section is irrelevant.

Otherwise your work on the lead is a definite improvement. -- Fyslee 10:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cooperation

Things are not going so well on the PS article due to some rather silly and short-sighted arbitration inducing behaviour of some editors. I just added some information to this article that I realize some editor here will not like very much. I will remove it myself if things go more smoothly on the PS article. I trust editors here can cooperate. KrishnaVindaloo 09:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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