Revision as of 23:23, 1 December 2006

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. It provides for suggestions by Arbitrators and other users and for comment by arbitrators, the parties and others. After the analysis of /Evidence here and development of proposed principles, findings of fact, and remedies, Arbitrators will vote at /Proposed decision. Anyone who edits should sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they have confidence in on /Proposed decision.

Motions and requests by the parties

Request for checkuser

1) The arbcomm, in order to determine if User:Asmodeus and User:DrL are indeed skirting WP:AUTO and WP:COI, will need to determine whether Asmodeus and DrL are related to Christopher Michael Langan for the purpose of settling this arbitration case.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Doesn't matter exactly who they are; it is the disruptive behavior that is at issue. Fred Bauder 18:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

• The identity of the users is not at issue. It is the quality and style of editing. Both of these editors are reasonable in their editing and seek to maintain NPOV. --DrL 20:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Requested. FeloniousMonk 17:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

How? Thatcher131 17:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Per this and this I have added DrL as a party. Disruptive behavior is a no-no no matter who the editor is in real-life. Please add evidence. Thatcher131 18:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I just want to put in a comment here that my disruptive behavior is alleged, not proven as the above statement might imply. And it won't be proven. The alleged "evidence" is a string of good faith edits posted by Felonious Monk. Anyone can peruse them on the evidence page and I invite them to do so. I stand by my edits and editing style as seeking to maintain balance and accuracy in any article I edit. --DrL 22:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

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Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed temporary injunctions

Temporary ban of DrL from Langan-related articles

1) DrL was blocked for 24 hours for 3RR at 12:31 on 27 November. 1 hr and 2 minutes after the block expired DrL was back edit warring at the Christopher Michael Langan article, violating 3RR again within 8 hrs. This was DrL's 4th block now for 3RR violations at Christopher_Michael_Langan and Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe:

Given DrL's chronic edit warring and multiple 3RR violations, and the fact after her last block she returned and immediately violated 3RR again, a temporary ban to halt the disruption is in order, at least until this proceeding is completed.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 17:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• This accusation confuses "edit-warring" with "editing". Anyone who carefully examines the history of the article will see that my edits are reasonable. Additionally, I did not edit the article until it started getting attacked this past summer. On the other hand, many of the other editors have exhibited rudeness and decidedly inaccurate POV editing. Wrt the two blocks instigated by Felonious Monk, they are both bogus examples of gaming the system by an administrator who, as far as I can see, is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. --DrL 20:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It doesn't matter whether your edits are reasonable; it matters that you continued to revert. Everyone involved in a edit war can claim that their opponents engaged in inaccurate POV editing; that's why 3RR and edit-warring aren't about who was making the best edits, it's about who was continuing to fight instead of trying to discuss. That's what makes it an edit war.--Prosfilaes 21:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• No, she didn't revert. The accusations were phony, just as yours was when you followed me to Academic Elitism, erased all my edits, and then cried "3RR!" when I justifiably reversed your deletions. People like you and FeloniousMonk use rules like 3RR to game the system against those whom you have unilaterally designated as your opponents. The only thing I can say on your behalf is that at least you didn't abuse your own administrative authority in the process. Instead, you got someone else to abuse his (and shame on you for that). Asmodeus 22:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • That makes no sense. Reverts are the most mechanical policy in Misplaced Pages; it's not about whether your reverses are justified or not, it's about whether or not you make them. Period.--Prosfilaes 22:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Well, the bottom line is that I didn't make three reverts. According to the edit history used by FM to try to block me, at most I reverted a piece of information twice. --DrL 23:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• Right. I think that Prosfilaes may need to check out the Misplaced Pages definition of reversion. DrL's edits didn't qualify as reversions under that definition. Asmodeus 23:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Immediate ban of Haldane Fisher accounts

Haldane Fisher continues to speculate about the RL identities, places of employment, and other personal details of parties involved in this arbitration. This is in violation of multiple policies including WP:NPA, WP:HARASS, WP:STALK, and WP:PRIVACY. He is disrupting the proceedings and his edits constitute serious personal attacks. These activities need to be interdicted immediately.

Harassing and threatening edits include this, this and this, and virtually everything else in his contributions page. As there is no sign of abatement, damage control would indicate that a ban is in order. As this user has used two accounts, both will need to be blocked.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --DrL 18:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• As of this writing the accounts have been blocked. I hope that this will represent a permanent state of affairs when the arbitration is over. --DrL 19:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Immediate Ban on Posting Personal Information and Speculation about IRL

There is a real problem with editors and involved parties posting speculation on RL identities and other harassment against the parties in this arbitration. This is a serious violation of policy on any day at Misplaced Pages, particularly WP:NPA, WP:HARASS, WP:BLOCK, WP:STALK, and even WP:OR, but it is even more egregious when it inteferes with the arbitration process. This behavior must stop immediately. Blatant speculations on RL identities constites a personal attack under the stated Misplaced Pages policies and may be removed by any editor.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --DrL 19:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I second. The talk page for Christopher Michael Langan has now turned into a diversionary chaos of RL identity speculation, unauthorized divulgence of personal information, secret emails, and unabashed wikilawyering. It really needs to stop. DrL and I have opted not to share our RL identities for a simple, undeniable reason: this site contains far too many trolls, ID critics, failed litigators, and so on who would use any and all personal information on us to subject us to harassment, and many of them have already done so without waiting for final corroboration. Now, in order to make RL identity an issue despite the personal harassment potential of RL information, one most unequivocally demonstrate a clear pattern of WP:NPOV violations. I'm willing to stand on my edit history to the letter, and I believe that DrL is willing to do the same. Of course, I'm aware that FeloniousMonk has linked to every single one of our edits as "evidence" of AUTO/COI violations in this RfAr, but FeloniousMonk is mistaken and clearly driven by philosophical bias (and possibly some other form of jealousy or resentment). In the final analysis, the "right" of others to harass us because we might some day violate WP:AUTO, or because some day I might decide to insert a CTMU reference in some science article where it arguably doesn't belong, is nonexistent. Misplaced Pages is not, and never will be, in a position to censure or punish anyone for potential misdeeds. Accordingly, the harassment against us should stop, even if that requires forcible interdiction. Where there are so many aggressors bent on harassing a given victim that the victim does not have enough hours in the day to track all of the policy violations and cut and paste and format all the little diffs and find willing administrators and plead for their help and warn and communicate with all the violators and then wait and wait ad nauseam while potentially irretrievable damage is done, then a faster mechanism is clearly required. That is certainly the case here, and that, I daresay, is why this proposal has been made. Asmodeus 21:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

So basically the fact that DrL and Asmodeus have both used the same IP, and the theory that they are closely related to Christopher Michael Langan should be hidden? I think that's very relevant to this arbitration.--Prosfilaes 19:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it is not. This arbitration is in fact about the harassment of DrL and me by people who have been trying to extort personal information out of us since shortly after we arrived here. The idea that these selfsame people should be able to treat this RfAr as a golden opportunity to redouble their violations of WP:HARASS, etc., is utterly absurd. Asmodeus 20:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We need to separate the specific from the general here. Thatcher131 20:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anyone trying to extort personal information out of you. You've given us all the information needed to make a strong speculation about your identity, and it is the mere posting of that speculation that makes up much of what you're objecting to. Besides Haldane Fisher, who is banned, all we're talking about is your name.--Prosfilaes 14:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not even interested in the legal name. I am just interested in the issues of identity as far as the article Christopher Michael Langan is concerned and WP:AUTO and WP:COI are concerned. For all I care, the users in question could have any name, but if their real life identities coincide with those articles, the users should not edit those articles. --ScienceApologist 15:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is ridiculous. What DrL wants is freedom from WP:AUTO/WP:COI and to punish users who would attempt to enforce it. Furthermore, the notion that this could even involve WP:OR indicates fundamental misunderstandings of that policy since it is a policy about article content. I also have now idea what DrL means "per WP." It would help if the user would specify what policy she is talking about. JoshuaZ 19:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. The accounts are used only to attack one person and have moved beyond just repeating a name to employment information. Fred Bauder 19:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean Hal's behavior which has been clearly harrassing at this point. However, the statement in this proposal is much more general than that. JoshuaZ 19:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC) (Also, DrL added WP:BLOCK to the list of relevant policies justifying this. It looks to me like DrL is just throwing in as many policies as possible without regard to their relevancy). JoshuaZ 21:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It was in response to a message that you left on my talk page that I edited this to try to be clearer. I used an appropriate edit summary when I did so. I believe that the policies listed are all relevant and listen them in good faith. --DrL 21:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I am adding this excerpt from WP:BLOCK: Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself.

On general principles, some speculation about real life identity may be appropriate in order to evaluate an editor's contributions. This should be limited, though, as the bottom line is that someone who is a fawning supporter or blind defender of a biography is going to have their credibility deprecated whether their identity is established or not. (as is an obviously biased attacker) With certain users this has crossed over into pure harrassment, as with Haldane Fisher posting speculation to completely unrelated topics (for which I blocked him, by the way). Some limited consideration of an editor's relationship to an article (kept moderate and respectful in tone) will often be appropriate. The only perfect defense is to not edit articles that you are closely related to. Thatcher131 19:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind giving your opinion about the IRL speculations and how they are used in this edit?. --DrL 22:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Questions to the parties

Proposed final decision

Proposed principles

Posting of personal information

1) The posting of personal information, or speculation thereof, of a Misplaced Pages user is strictly prohibited, as defined by Misplaced Pages:Harassment.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Not a firm policy. It is serious digging after the identity of anonymous users combined with posting of personal information combined with personal harassment which is the evil. Speculation regarding the identity of an anonymous user whose interests mirror a known person are only natural. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

DrL and I were subjected to vicious, protracted campaigns of harassment by users Byrgenwulf and Hillman/CH. During these campaigns, which ended only when they left Misplaced Pages, I learned that Misplaced Pages harbors certain people - militant skeptics, ID critics and so forth - who bear Christopher Michael Langan what seems to be considerable ill will for various POV-based reasons, and also that Misplaced Pages has few administrators willing to restrain them. Those who post allegations that I am CML are exposing me to this reservoir of ill will, and to add insult to injury, spiking it with misrepresentations and trying to tie my hands in the bargain. This is utterly reprehensible, and quite aside from the fact that my edit history requires no apologies, I strongly object to it on ethical grounds. If this is some sort of catch-22 inherent in Misplaced Pages policy, then Misplaced Pages policy is unsound; on the other hand, if Misplaced Pages policy is sound, then properly interpreting and enforcing it should put an end to the harassment. Asmodeus 01:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• This rule is an important policy that must be upheld to insure user safety and preempt ad hominem attacks. The important aspects to focus on are the editing behaviors (e.g., are they NPOV or not?) of the individuals rather than their identities IRL. --DrL 20:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Proposed. Given , needs to be defined. Daniel.Bryant 23:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Pot=Kettle Thatcher131 13:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• As per below, this is not "strictly prohibited" - the arbcomm has done this on several occassions, and any CheckUser case amounts to some degree of (public) speculation in this regard. Guettarda 05:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• WP:HAR was never intended as a shield to allow editors who have a personal stake in a topic to side-step complying with WP:COI and WP:AUTO. Scofflaws who attempt to use WP:HAR to game the system should not benefit from their misdeeds. Arbcomm precedent exists that affirms this. FeloniousMonk 18:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Statements like the above have been rejected in past ArbCom decisions such as the Agapetos Angel arbitration. JoshuaZ 05:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous editors

1) Misplaced Pages operates on the principle that every contributor has a right if they wish to remain completely anonymous. Misplaced Pages policy on that issue is strictly enforced. Posting private information about a user, specifically their (alleged) name and/or personal details, is strictly prohibited as harassment, and users who do that are often immediately blocked from editing Misplaced Pages.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Speculation regarding obvious situations is not a violation. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

If anyone has a right to anonymity at Misplaced Pages, then so does everyone, including bio subjects and the authors of notable ideas. Anything else is blatantly discriminatory. When Byrgenwulf came here from The Brights.net in order to attack the CML and CTMU articles, he proclaimed himself an expert in the philosophy of physics while making various mistakes that a real expert wouldn't have made. On the supposition that a real expert is not afraid to share his credentials, I did some minor investigation, found that Byrgenwulf was at best a grad student, and naively pointed this out (along with his name, which I included for purposes of verification). Needless to say, the sky fell on me for daring to reveal the extent of his "expert qualifications". Yet, when Hillman/CH began his outrageous "dig page" on me and DrL, including every scrap of information he could ferret and various slurs and false charges in the bargain, nobody seemed to have a problem with it but the victims (us). The double standard is palpable. Again, if this is inherent in Misplaced Pages policy, then Misplaced Pages policy is unsound. The distributed architecture of Misplaced Pages demands symmetry above all else. Asmodeus 02:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• The right to privacy is a fundamental right in a project like Misplaced Pages. Aside from safety issues, respect for the privacy of the individual helps keep the focus on the content of edits, rather than ad hominem speculations. --DrL 21:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• From {{Pinfo4}}. Daniel.Bryant 00:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• There is value to anonymity, but it is definitely not a right of contributors. {{Pinfo4}}, which does not appear to be supported by either policy or guideline, directly contradicts WP:AUTO and WP:COI, and conflicts with CheckUser. See also the Agapetos angel arbcomm case. Harrassment should not be tolerated, but we make no guarantees of anonymity, and we cannot make such guarantees if we want to be able to protect ourselves. Guettarda 04:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• Hiding behind anonymity to circumvent policy and guideline governing self-editing and bias to enable one to promote a narrow viewpoint to the detriment of article neutrality is simply gaming the system; an act of bad faith and an abuse of policy, not a protected right. FeloniousMonk 20:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Assuming good faith

1) Without evidence to the contrary, all Wikipedians should assume that people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it.

Comment by Arbitrators:

An adequate restatement. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Sometimes not easy but we should all try. --DrL 16:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Per "ScienceApologist has serially violated WP:NPA, WP:LIVING, WP:HARASS, and WP:NPOV while falsely accusing me of violating WP:AUTO (as loyally seconded by some of his allies)" -- Asmodeus. Daniel.Bryant 23:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Affiliations and views

1) All Wikipedians are expected to abide by Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. This includes that using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views should be discouraged and/or prevented, regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Awkwardly expressed but true. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. It is important to understand that Misplaced Pages is called home by a certain number of militants, including its own self-appointed anti-ID and anti-pseudoscience "strike teams". In the current political and educational climate, wherein ID is systematically conflated with creationism, calling someone an "ID advocate" is enough to annihilate his or her credibility with a large percentage of the educated populace. In point of impact, one might compare it to crying "witch!" against an eccentric 17th century Salem spinster. ID critics and militant skeptics are very well aware of this. By falsely but tirelessly identifying CML as an "ID advocate" while repeatedly removing references to valid sources like Popular Science (e.g., 1), ScienceApologist, FeloniousMonk, and their comrades-in-arms are trying to make him, and by proxy me, a focus of contempt. Of course, the proper focus of contempt is exactly this kind of behavior. Asmodeus 04:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Asmodeus's points are a content issue, not a policy issue. CML, by publishing in Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing, has given support to Intelligent Design. He has joined a society about Intelligent Design. I have seen nothing verifiable from Asmodeus to show that CML has positive opinions on evolution. This should be covered in the article; the only question I see is what weight should be put on it, and that's fundamentally a content issue.--Prosfilaes 22:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Langan came out in support of evolution in Popular Science, in the PCID paper, and in the very first paragraph of Cheating the Millennium. One reason you may not be aware of this is that these crucial sources have been periodically removed from Christopher Michael Langan by people trying to sabotage the article. This is why so much of DrL's precious time has been taken up trying to maintain its accuracy. Asmodeus 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Absolutely. This speaks to the importance of focusing on content rather than engaging in harassment and ad hominem attacks to censor good faith editors. --DrL 21:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Daniel.Bryant 23:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Reworded. Daniel.Bryant 22:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Flies in the face of WP:AUTO and WP:COI. Editors with a personal stake in a topic are expected to act in good faith and not attempt to mislead the community in order to avoid having to comply WP:COI and WP:AUTO. FeloniousMonk 06:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I would dislike this for reasons related to what FM said. Involved editors edits should not be dismissed a priori. However, when involved editors have shown repeated tendencies to POV push or be otherwise disruptive it is highly understandable if editors react in a dismissive fashion to their later edits. JoshuaZ 04:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Autobiographical writing

1) Although discouraged in certain circumstances (see WP:AUTO and WP:NPOV), editing articles which are autobiographical in nature are not prohibited. Known or speculated autobiographical edits cannot be reverted on the grounds of being simply autobiographical in nature.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Not prohibited, but subject to revision and in extreme cases to reversion or deletion. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I see that I'm accused below of editing the Langan biography. As DrL observes, I did so just twice: once to correct a misspelling, and once because ScienceApologist had sneakily added the following false statement: "Langan is also a fellow of the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design, an intelligent design society founded by Jonathan Wells." Because there is no evidence that Langan knows Wells or vice versa, Wells does not belong in Langan's biography any more than Langan belongs in Wells'. After all, ScienceApologist was merely attempting to associate Langan with a man who is widely (and probably unjustly) criticized for being both an ID advocate and a follower of the Rev Sun Myung Moon - in short, a "Moonie" - and who thus suffers from a double PR whammy for which he has paid a steep price. Granted, it's a game that people like ScienceApologist and FeloniousMonk delight in playing, but why should they be allowed to play it at Langan's expense? (Incidentally, ScienceApologist's statement is false because Wells is not among the founders of ISCID at all, as one can easily see by reading this article.) Asmodeus 21:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Evidence is available now that shows this is simply untrue. Please see Asmodeus has attempted to mislead the community... FeloniousMonk 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Very true. The content of the edits should be the primary focus. --DrL 16:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Proposed. Daniel.Bryant 23:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
• While there is no solid prohibition, it is discouraged in general, not just "in certain circumstances". Several arbcomm rulings (e.g., the Carl_Hewitt, WebEx/Min Zhu and Agapetos angel cases) have supported this idea. Guettarda 05:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Though the principle is sound, WP:AUTO exists to discourage self-editing and specifically mentions why it is inappropriate "...several fundamental problems with autobiographies:They are often biased, usually positively (see puffery). People have a tendency towards self-aggrandizement when talking about themselves, and for presenting opinions as facts." and urges editors to refrain from writing about themselves "It is difficult to write neutrally about yourself. Therefore, it is considered proper on Misplaced Pages to let others do the writing. Instead, contribute material or make suggestions on the article's talk page and let independent editors write it into the article itself." Much arbcomm precedent exists to this effect. And puffery and self-aggrandizement were exactly the issues with Asmodeus' edits that drew ScienceApologist's attention and continue to this day at Uncommon Dissent as I write this: FeloniousMonk 19:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• This statement by Felonious Monk gives the impression that Asmodeus has edited the Langan bio and he has not. The one or two edits that he's made only corrected a typo or two. This is typical of the presentation of FM's complaints. I hope that whoever is reading FM's statements is also reading the edits and seeing just what is going on here. --DrL 00:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It gives that impression? How so? Guettarda 00:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually this edit is an attempt to whitewash the ID connection from the article. That's far more than a typo, it's clearly POV-pushing. Guettarda 00:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

In a world where attempts to game the system were always successful, the claim that the topics Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe, Uncommon Dissent and Academic elitism fail to find a nexus with Asmodeus would make sense I suppose. FeloniousMonk 01:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverting

1) Edit wars or revert wars are usually considered harmful, because they cause ill-will between users and negatively destabilize articles. Editors are encourage to explore alternate methods of dispute resolution. When disagreements arise, users are expected to discuss their differences rationally rather than reverting.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Yes Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

• Agreed. I wish editors were more inclined to collaborate and communicate. I will continue to try to facilitate positive communication amongst the editors of the articles I am working on and hope others do the same. --DrL 21:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Seems relevant. Daniel.Bryant 23:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Harassment (intent)

1) Posting an editors personal details with the intent or effect of harassing or threatening is strictly prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Posting of an editor's personal details is prohibited. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Alternative to other harassment options. The intent/effect of personal details is key, not the mere posting of them, much like vandalism/testing. JBKramer 07:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

In response to Fred, if I were to comment that on Thursday, January 6, 2000, editor William Michael Connolley was at tlc's talk on solar-climate connections, I would be in violation of some rule? He was, you know. JBKramer 13:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess an indefinite block is in order. I am referring to more intimate matters especially with respect to editors who use a pseudoname. People who edit under their own name have different expectations. Fred Bauder 14:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed, of course. It is important to provide a safe environment. --DrL 21:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I agree - it's whether there is (or appears to be) intent to harrass that matters most. Guettarda 07:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, like this one better compared to my one per above statements. Cheers for this. Daniel.Bryant 11:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Harrassment (damage)

1) Causing or threatening to cause damage to an editors reputation, livelihood or well-being, regardless of intent, is strictly prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

As an alternative to above? Honestly confused on the line/judgement here. JBKramer 15:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• Absolutely. This is another important safeguard for Misplaced Pages editors. Here is an example of speculation regarding my employment that I find disturbing. --DrL 16:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Good faith participation and compliance with WP:COI and WP:AUTO

1) Editors with a personal stake in a topic are expected to act in good faith and comply with WP:COI and WP:AUTO, which require limiting their participation to the talk page when their edits are challenged.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Discretion is recommended. Easy to make a fool of yourself. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Despite having done my best to comply with WP:NPOV, WP:AUTO, and WP:COI since I came to Misplaced Pages, and at the risk of belaboring the obvious, I should observe that there are certain editors with whom it does little good to plead for accuracy on an article's talk page: militant or compulsive editors who don't listen particularly well, are perfectly content to leave you bound and gagged on the talk page while using their greater latitude to edit as they please, and then accuse you of violating WP:AUTO and WP:COI anyway. (Since I speak from long personal experience, including recent experience with certain parties involved in this RfAr, I trust that I'm not violating WP:AGF.) Asmodeus 05:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

See this edit for an example of where an editor has used WP:COI to try and drive an editor from the talk page.--Prosfilaes 22:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

All editors need to act in good faith at all times. Editors who have a stake in a topic or a personal or emotional involvement in a particular article should be extremely careful when editing to maintain NPOV. The Misplaced Pages rules do allow for such parties to edit their articles of interest, provided they are neutral edits. In fact, policy recognizes that individuals that are closely involved in a topic can actually do the encyclopedia a service by correcting factual errors. --DrL 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Proposed. FeloniousMonk 19:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Good faith participation when there are conflicts of interest

1) Editors with a personal stake in a topic are expected to act in good faith and not attempt to mislead the community as to their stake in the topic in order to avoid having to comply WP:COI and WP:AUTO.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Recommended Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

• Editors are not required to answer questions or respond to speculations regarding their personal identity and stake in a topic. To refuse to answer such questions should not be misconstrued as an "attempt to mislead". All editors are expected to act in good faith whether or not they have a stake in the topic. It would make sense that editors who have a stake in the topic be extremely careful to maintain a neutral POV in their edits. --DrL 16:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Proposed. FeloniousMonk 19:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Existing bias towards obscure academic theories

1) Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias says that Misplaced Pages has a bias towards "obscure academic theories and subcultures with few adherents" that should be counterbalanced.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Can't find that quote, but probably true in some cases. Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Added; I'd count CTMU for this as an obscure academic theory.--Prosfilaes 15:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

CTMU is not obscure, it is subobscure. Indeed, many situations, Misplaced Pages does not have sources criticising crank theories because no-one the academic elite considers them even remotely good enough to have any attention paid to them. Haldane Fisher 10:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Not sure that I agree with it, but the quote is there in the essay, see section 1.1, 4th bullet point. Newyorkbrad 03:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a compendium of established knowledge

1) Misplaced Pages is a compendium of verifiable established knowledge found in reliable sources. Unpublished or self-published information is generally unsuitable for inclusion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Ban for disruption

2) Users who disrupt an article or set of articles may be banned from that area, in extreme cases from the site.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Autobiography and Conflict of Interest

3) A user who apparently disrupts editing of the article on themselves and their areas of interest may be restricted in their editing. It is not necessary that a definite identification be made; only that the user engages in such a pattern of editing.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 18:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

That's a strong principle - is it really permissible to restrict someone on WP:AUTO grounds if you're not sure if they're the person in question? My instinct is that it would be better to proceed under the tendentious editor provisions - otherwise most tendentious editors might be subject to restriction under the theory that their "pattern" of editing raises a strong inference of conflict of interest. TheronJ 14:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There is conflict of interest which is quite personal as in this case and conflict of interest which is much more abstract, as in articles which excite nationalist feelings. Trying to identify the person, and encouraging efforts to do so, is a violation of our users' privacy. Fred Bauder 15:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:HAR#Types_of_harassment (Posting of personal information) was never intended to provide a shield that allows personally involved editors to game the system and avoid having to follow WP:COI and WP:AUTO by coyly dodging requests for them to clarify their relationship to a topic (without revealing their identity, a simple "yes/no, I am/am not involved" would do) and thumb their noses at the community. FeloniousMonk 00:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not just limited to biographies though. An editor personally involved in a topic may (wisely) avoid self-editing at his biography, but run rampant with biased edits at the article of professional organization he belongs to while not disclosing his relationship to the topic. The problem here is no different than that paid editors contributing to articles, and the net effect is the same. Editors are expected to act in good faith to clarify whether they a conflict of interest when queried. Dodging the question by refusing to clarify in order to avoid complying with guidelines is by necessity an act of bad faith. Clearly biased editing on any topic you're closely related to, like the article of your employer, is a clear conflict of interest. WP:COI and WP:AUTO exist for this very reason. 99% of us follow them, those who try to side-step them should not be rewarded. FeloniousMonk 23:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good faith is not unlimited

1) While the assumption of good faith is important, it is explicitly not limitless. It is permissible, in the face of the obvious, to call a spade a spade.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Feel free to cut this but it seem to me that if we are going (rightly) to mention AGF, we should also note that an editor may, through their actions, forfeit that right. Guy (Help!) 20:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No original research

1) Information which has not been published in a reliable source may not be included, see Misplaced Pages:No original research. It is not acceptable whether the user attempting to insert original research is the author or a third party.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 20:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. "Original research" also extends to unsourced speculations that were previously not cited or the material not synthesized. For example, one cannot state that John Doe is an advocate of Z, citing his membership in X and subscription to Y as this might constitute OR if not synthesized elsewhere in a reliable source. --DrL 16:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But you are welcome to state that X is an organization devoted to Z where that is easily citable.--Prosfilaes 16:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Legal threats

1) Legal threats are prohibited

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

No legal threats. JBKramer 15:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Administrative conflicts of interest

1) Administrators who take strong positions on content issues, whether on Misplaced Pages or in real life (e.g. Bucketsofg's opposition to certain Canadian politicians, FeloniousMonk's opposition to Intelligent Design and membership in WikiProject intelligent design) should not take administrative action regarding editors or articles closely associated with the topic, even if they have not previously edited the article or interacted with the editor (and might consider themselves technically "uninvolved"). I guess this was a stupid idea. Thatcher131 04:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

The proposed desyopping in this case is based on unblocking a serious problem user on the basis that he was "doing just fine". It has nothing to do with the meta theme of opposing intelligent design. Fred Bauder 17:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I see considerable merit in this proposal. NPOV is important not only in editing articles, but also in administrative judgments. Unfortunately, while POV-driven editors tend to be counterbalanced by other editors with contrary opinions, there is no analogous mechanism for balancing or moderating the POV-driven behavior of an administrator who has become emotionally involved in a content-related dispute. Voluntary compliance won't do the trick; some Misplaced Pages administrators evidently lack the objectivity and self-control to refrain from "looking for trouble" within the range of their POV's, much less restrain themselves in the heat of an argument in which they are already directly involved. That leaves only relatively coarse measures like forbidding the members of WikiProject ID to use their administrative powers in any dispute relating to ID. Given that we've already seen the absence of such rules result in various unpleasant consequences, arguably including this RfAr, such rules would appear to be needed. Regarding the occasional emergency situation, exceptions can always be accommodated. Asmodeus 06:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Prop. Thatcher131 16:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Note this could catch a number of other admins (e.g. MONGO) who have strong opinions about content. Hopefully they have already learned to refrain from takin admin action themselves in relation to topics they care deeply about. Thatcher131 16:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• IMHO, this is a good idea, but doesn't obviously follow from current policy. Assuming I'm correct, (1) should this go through the normal policy process rather than arbcomm; or (2) if it goes through arbcomm, should it be prospective only? It's also tricky to define "strong positions." TheronJ 16:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with what Theron says in so far as that this is arguably beyond the ArbCom's level of discretion. (Throw in some joke about an activist arbcom here). I'm also not sure this is a good idea. While admins should be careful when excercising their tools on topics they have opinions about, this would hamper many admins from being able to do their duties effectively and would give POV pushers an excuse to accuse admins who block them of violating this. For example, if we had an editor who insisted adding to the Jesus article the phrase "The Jews killed Jesus" I don't think we would need to search for an admin who didn't have a strong opinion about whether or not the statement was true in order to do a 3RR block. I think I am probably one of the admins who might be considered to have a strong POV on ID matters and I've blocked editors on both sides of the fence for POV pushing and incivility on related articles. I for one (and I suspect many other admins) would like that freedom. The bottom line is that when making people admins the community is saying that it trusts them to decide when they are too involved or too biased to make a block. Micromanaging their judgement calls will cause more problems than it would solve. JoshuaZ 16:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As a member of WikiProject:ID, I would like to know which of my administrative actions related to are egregious enough that they warrant restrictions of my use of admin powers in relation to topics like these. (Or should I now be posting as a party?) Guettarda 17:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

See my note above. As long as you take a good look at the edited of a blocked user before you unblock them, I can't see a problem. Vandals are not divided into "good" vandals who agree with you and "bad" vandals who don't. Fred Bauder 17:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good grief. I thought this was a logical extension of the principle that admins should not block editors with whom they are involved in editing disputes. Obviously yet another good reason I am not running for Arbcom. And maybe this is unnecessary anyway as admins who are passionate about a topic will probably be writing about it anyway. I was trying to identify a reason why desysopping FM for unblocking the Fisher accounts might be justified. Even if we accept the characterization of the Fisher accounts as single purpose attack accounts, what elevates the unblock from an ordinary error in judgement to a desysopping offense? Does the fact that FM has heavily edited the CML article create enough "involvement" that he should not have unblocked the Fishers, or is a broader principle needed? (Hypothetically, if a new editor joined and created a new 9/11 conspiracy article, do you think MONGO should speedy-delete it or would it be better if someone else did it?) Thatcher131 17:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

All right, per Fred, this is going in a direction other than what I thought. Never mind. Thatcher131 18:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

What elevates the unblock? Nothing, Fred's suggestion is flawed. But the correct response to a flawed proposal is to either point out the flaw, or ignore it and let it die a natural death. Responding with a proposed principle which says "let's censure people on the basis of their beliefs is about as bad an idea as I can imagine. Guettarda 18:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No matter what reasons are proposed to desysop in this case are irrelevant: the proposal is out of process. Period. •Jim62sch• 21:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of form, references to other administrators or editors uninvolved in the present case are fine in argumentation or by way of comparison, but I do not believe they should appear in the decision itself. Newyorkbrad 03:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Patience

1) Enthusiastic but inexperienced users frequently commit gaffes such as intensively editing subjects they are involved with such as the article on themselves or their own research. However, if patiently corrected, many go on to become valued contributors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 17:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

All too true. Patience is justified with such editors and their totally expected and excusable gaffs, but not for coordinated campaigns as is the case here. FeloniousMonk 19:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder if we have statistics on that. •Jim62sch• 21:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Administrative status

1) Administrators who misuse their tools by engaging in struggle with other users may be desysopped. As applied to this case, unblocking a single purpose attack account was grossly inappropriate.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 18:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

More grossly inappropriate than the painfully obvious wrongful block and abuse of admin tools in which that editor was summarily indefinitely blocked without warning and without any appropriate community discussion or input? I don't think so. Particularly considering evidence shows that Asmodeus and DrL have a long and well-established history of attacking and harassing those who oppose them to the degree that some have left the project, making single purpose accounts appear a reasonable method of self-preservation for anyone who wants to stand up against their campaign of self promotion. The unilateral blocking of Haldane Fisher by Cowman109 at the behest of Asmodeus and DrL, done completely outside of process, proves my point. FeloniousMonk 18:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

For clarification, Asmodeus did not ask me to block Haldane Fisher, I did it based on my own judgement without having even spoken to Asmodeus or any other parties in this case, seeing that the user's edits appeared to be blatant harassment of a single purpose account. When Asmodeus asked me to block the sockpuppet of Haldane Fisher, I instead resorted to speaking with the user instead of blocking. It may be a good idea to somehow add FeloniousMonk and me to the involved parties to this case if this becomes a part of the findings of fact, however. Cowman109 19:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You should have given Haldane Fisher a warning first and given him an opportunity to correct or justify his actions, which were not wholly inappropriate or unexpected. And failing there then a proposed block of Haldane Fisher should be been brought up at WP:AN/I. This would have been consistent with WP:BLOCK and established convention. Unilateral, summary blocks are almost anyways controversial, and those made without community input are almost always wrong. I'm not alone in this opinion. FeloniousMonk 19:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, exceptions would be vandalism only accounts which are regularly blocked, but that's just me wikilawyering :). The second account I did not block immediately and I tried to start a discussion, however, since it was clear the user will use different IPs and sockpuppets to continue his disruptive action. Cowman109 19:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you clasrify the last sentence -- it seems a bit unclear as if something is missing •Jim62sch• 21:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, there was contact from DrL to Cowman before any action was taken . •Jim62sch• 21:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If the user wasn't a single purpose account, I figured they would make an unblock request on their talk page, as the MediaWiki blocked text instructs them to do. This was not done, however, and instead the user went on to create a new account to continue their disruptive action. As to the contact from DrL to me, as I've stated above, this was in reference to the second single purpose account whom I did not block, and instead resorted to discussion. Cowman109 22:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It was a new user, though. Not every new user who is blocked within the first few days of editting knows how to follow the unblock request. Not every new user will know not to start sockpuppet accounts. --ScienceApologist 18:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Attack accounts

1) Accounts created and used only for the purpose of attacking the subject of an article and their work may be indefinitely banned.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 18:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I concur. I should also note that after being repeatedly exposed to the unpleasant activities of Hal(dane) Fisher, I take serious exception to the claim (below) that I'm responsible for FeloniousMonk's decision to officially sponsor him. In point of fact, I've been far too busy trying to defend myself from accusations that I engaged in a "campaign of self-promotion" to actually engage in the campaign of self-promotion which allegedly brough Haldane Fisher into existence. (By the way, I hope nobody misinterprets FeloniousMonk's portentious references to "the evidence" as proof that "the evidence" implies what he says it implies. It seems to me that he simply links to every edit made by DrL or me, labels it "evidence", and randomly inserts it under the accusatory heading of his choice.) Asmodeus 06:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I don't care for SPAs myself, but Asmodeus' and DrL's own actions resulted in the appearence of SPAs. Evidence shows that both Asmodeus, here and DrL and here, have a long and well-established history of attacking and harassing those who oppose them to the degree that some have left the project. They've created a climate that makes single purpose accounts appear a reasonable method of self-preservation for anyone who wants to stand up against their campaign of self promotion. The unilateral blocking of Haldane Fisher by Cowman109 at the behest of Asmodeus and DrL, done completely outside of process, proves my point. FeloniousMonk 19:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Your "evidence" is just a string of edits from edit histories. I don't believe any are particularly egregious. The proposal narrows the definition of SPA. --DrL 22:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I've clarified the blocking of Haldane Fisher above. Cowman109 19:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

See above. •Jim62sch• 21:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked or banned (WP:BAN)? For the purpose of an ArbCom remedy, this is vital to clear up. Daniel.Bryant 13:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:BAN#Decision_to_ban Fred Bauder 22:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, OK - normally, I see proposals where attack accounts are involved as being "blocked", but banning in this case seems fine. Just wanted to make sure :) Daniel.Bryant 03:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Blocks for disruption

1) WP:BLOCK states blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages. WP:BLOCK provides for blocking both editors who post personal details and for "obvious cranks and users who aggressively and repeatedly violate fundamental policies." WP:BLOCK recommends that "such persons should be prevented from wreaking havoc over the period of weeks or months it would take to process an obvious Arbitration request."

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Indefinite blocks

1) WP:BLOCK states block durations are usually 24 hours. Indefinite blocks are less common and generally not a first resort, but reserved for the worst cases.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Warning before blocking

1) Misplaced Pages has a long-standing convention that editors are warned of an impending block giving them an opportunity to stop their behavior.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Then why did you blindside me twice? You sought to have me blocked on extremely dubious grounds without ever extending this simple courtesy. --DrL 17:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Controversial blocks

1) Before making what may be a controversial block, WP:BLOCK recommends following these steps: 3. Contact other administrators to sanity-check your reasoning, preferably on ANI. 4. After receiving feedback, place the block, wording the "reason" message with care and without jargon, and include a link to the user page of the user being blocked. 5. Place a notice of the block on the talk page of the affected user, with additional rationale, outlining the facts and the part of the blocking policy you feel applies. 6. Stay around to discuss the block with other Wikipedians. 7. If an act or acts of disruption do not warrant a 24-hour block, consider a warning or posting to ANI before issuing a short term block. (Someone may well block them longer than you would have!) 8. If in doubt, don't block.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Internet persona

1. That nameless probably involved parties have WWW-related interests outside of Misplaced Pages makes it more likely that they will autogoogle themselves.
2. That those said interests are extremely fringe (to be polite) makes them more likely to dislike Misplaced Pages's neutrality (etc) policies, especially if sources portray them in a bad light.
3. That in those said interests they have an aggressive and tendentious persona makes the less likely to like Misplaced Pages's civility policies

Taken together, these indicate that the problem is not restricted to Misplaced Pages but to the world wide web, and that it is likely that fringe personalities will stumble across their own Misplaced Pages articles and cause chaos. Haldane Fisher 10:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

True enough Fred Bauder 12:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

1) (Proposed principle)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

ScienceApologist

1) ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) is a prolific Misplaced Pages editor, with over 12,000 edits and two years of service.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Gives background to those involved. Daniel.Bryant 01:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for comment

1) Asmodeus (talk · contribs) had a request for comment filed against him/her (see here), with concerns about WP:NPA, WP:HARASS, and WP:CIVILITY.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Anyone can file a RFC against anyone if they get a few people to agree with them. That a RFC was filed is not really all that relevant. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Again, gives some background. Daniel.Bryant 01:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Bogus request. Filers never followed through. --DrL 20:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Asmodeus is an aggressive and tendentious editor

3) Many of Asmodeus' edits are tendentious and with aggressive edit summaries (e.g. , ). He also introduces special pleading in support of fringe subjects (e.g. ). The degree of disruption he has caused is surprising given his limited mainspace edit history .

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 23:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Asmodeus is uncivil

4) Many of Asmodeus' talk page comments and edit summaries are uncivil, attacking those attempting to enforce Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines:

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 19:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Asmodeus' editing style

1) Asmodeus' editing style of Langan-related articles is characterized by low level edit warring and frequent edits promoting/inflating Langan's viewpoints over those of mainstream science:

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

• Proposed. FeloniousMonk 19:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Discourtesy by Asmodeus

1) Asmodeus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been discourteous

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 15:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Original research by Asmodeus

2) Asmodeus has engaged in original research .

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 17:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Asmodeus area of editing

1) Asmodeus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has in his editing concentrated on the set of subjects associated with Christopher Michael Langan, an independent scholar noted for original research. In this context "original research" means advancement of original ideas outside traditional academic venues such as Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_the_Universe, see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/ScienceApologist/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_FeloniousMonk.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 17:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Like some other Misplaced Pages editors, I only have a limited amount of time to spend here (I'm presently making an exception due to this RfAr). Obviously, when a topic of intellectual interest to a given editor is under constant attack by those intent on distorting and disparaging it, he is forced to spend a larger percentage of his available time in defending it. Meanwhile, if he is also being followed around Misplaced Pages by some of the same people, who specialize in disputing or tampering with his edits to any article he touches, he naturally comes to regard it as a waste of time to generate material that is sure to be removed, regardless of relevance and verification, by those engaging in this particular form of harassment. Speaking for myself, I'd very much like to have the option of editing anywhere I choose in Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately, it has become clear to me that I don't really have that option. Anything I write on any topic, from Crank (person) to Academic Elitism, will be subject to "special challenges", or "nuisance demands", or whatever one wishes to call them, which cannot under any circumstances be answered to the satisfaction of the challengers (many of whom seem to be personally motivated by their animosity toward me and Christopher Michael Langan). This is obviously an extreme deterrent, and in my case, has resulted in what may look to some like a skewed topical focus. Far from enjoying this situation, I am seriously bothered by it, and must point out that as long as certain people here are allowed to specialize in my case, they - and those who condone their activities - will continue to hold the bag regarding its causation. Asmodeus 21:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how a request to cite your edits amounts to a "special challenge", and I fail to see why it would be so hard to answer, unless of course what you were adding was WP:OR that shouldn't have been added.--Prosfilaes 22:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But as you know, none of the arguments for or against was specifically referenced, and some of the former even used pejorative terminology like "crank" and "idiot". Therefore, you need to explain why you repeatedly attacked only my edits, even after these issues were duly brought to your attention. As we've established, you can't do that. That's why I was forced to complain on WP:ANI about your harassment. Asmodeus 16:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We established no such thing. The other arguments were connected to the collection of references at the bottom and likely could be cited; your edits were original research by your own admission. You need to explain why you kept adding the arguments, after the fact that you needed to cite them came to your attention.--Prosfilaes 16:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright then, I established it. To wit, I looked at the arguments and saw no citations of the generic references at the bottom of the page. I asked you to match the arguments - all of which looked as though they'd been added without regard for the citations, and some of which even contained pejorative terminology like "crank" and "idiot" - with the references, per your objections to my edits. You failed to comply. Instead, you simply continued to go back and erase my, and only my, additions to the article, which were every bit as cogent as anyone else's (except perhaps to an obsequious academic cheerleader, no accusations implied). Then, adding insult to injury, you ran off to complain that I had "broken 3rr", prompting an administrator to block me. In other words, you subjected me to harassment and gamed the system, violating WP in the process. You know very well what you did, so please don't waste my time and that of the arbitrators with any more of this nonsense. Thanks, Asmodeus 15:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You did violate 3RR. It is each editor's responsibility to follow Misplaced Pages policies including 3RR, and to point out that another editor has failed to do so is not gaming the system. You broke both WP:3RR and WP:V; that was your own choice and your own responsibility.--Prosfilaes 19:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

DrL

1) DrL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) edits articles related to Christopher Michael Langan in a disruptive way Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/ScienceApologist/Evidence#DrL_ignores_WP:NPOV.2C_WP:NOT.2C_WP:OWN.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 23:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I do not edit in a disruptive way. I stick to verifiable facts and encourage others not to post opinion and conjecture or misrepresent sources. --DrL 20:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Hal Fisher

1) Hal Fisher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Haldane Fisher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are accounts which are mainly devoted to opposition to Christopher Michael Langan and Asmodeus who they identify as being him, often posting comments to that effect. example of a nasty edit

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 15:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Personal attack troll Fisher clearly needs to be permabanned. Just a few of examples of his most recent monkeyshines:

Hal(dane) Fisher, speculating on DrL's identity, attempts to reveal the place of employment of DrL in direct violation of WP:NPA and WP:HARASS: 1; 2

Hal(dane) Fisher defaces Tim Smith's "Articles I've Written" page in violation of WP:HARASS: 3

Of course, the likelihood is that Fisher, or the person for whom Fisher is a sockpuppet, will simply register another bogus account and resume his vandalism. But something clearly needs to be done now. The picture of Fisher, an obvious and unregenerate troll, making an utter mockery of Misplaced Pages's enforcement mechanisms in order to willfully disrupt an ArbCom proceeding, and doing so under the aegis of rogue administrator FeloniousMonk and his homeboys from WikiProject ID, is beyond ludicrous. Asmodeus 17:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

FeloniousMonk

1) Haldane Fisher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) had been blocked for harassing Asmodeus by Cowman109 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) . When Hal Fisher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appeared on November 27 and engaged in the same activity he was warned by Cowman109 . FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) responded to this warning with a post characterizing Cowman109's warning as harassment , stating, "Hal is doing just fine as far as I have seen." He then unblocked Haldane Fisher .

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 15:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Although Fisher was initially blocked for attempting to reveal personal information in violation of WP:HARASS, he had also committed at least one other form of personal harassment against me: reverting all and only my edits to the several articles that he vandalized. In addition, he committed clear violations of WP:NPA and WP:LIVING right here (see edit summary). Thus, although Cowman109 cited only the first of these violations in blocking him, there was ample additional justification for the block. Below, we see Guettarda attempting to rationalize the violation which was cited for the block - disclosure of personal information - but this rationalization fails to address the other violations of which Fisher was already guilty at the time. Therefore, this rationalization cannot justify the lifting of the block by FeloniousMonk. Although FeloniousMonk claims to have carefully reviewed the situation before acting, it is clear that he either did not (for otherwise, he would have seen all of Fisher's violations and left the block in place), or that he consciously overlooked all of Fisher's violations and lifted the block in the full knowledge that Fisher was nothing but an "attack troll" who would continue to make a vicious mockery of Misplaced Pages policy. In neither case was FeloniousMonk justified in removing the block. Asmodeus 07:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

He was blocked for "revealing personal information", something which, as has been demonstrated here, was neither a "revelation", nor was it something that Asmodeus has made a real attempt to hide. Based on this case, its obvious that the rationale for the block was in error. While Hal Fisher has obviously contempt for Langan, and a case could probably be made for restricting his edits to that article, I don't see that a clear case was made for a ban (e.g., a posting to AN/I). With no case made for a community block, I fail to see how FM's unblock is a major issue. Guettarda 16:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

My unblocking of Haldane Fisher was meant to remedy what in my view was an painfully obvious wrongful block and abuse of admin tools. User:Cowman109 indefinitely blocked User:Haldane Fisher without any prior warning or community discussion: Haldane Fisher was simply repeating the same quite valid point raised by User:Hillman, ScienceApologist and many others: that Asmodeus and DrL are serially violating WP:AUTO, WP:COI and WP:NOT to conduct a pov campaign of self-promotion on the project. And his method was not unreasonable or trollish, , and remained quite reasonable until he was repeatedly attacked by Asmodeus and DrL and summarily blocked by Cowman109. And considering the treatment he received for his effort I feel his response has been understandable. Summary, unilateral blocks without warning for adding Notable Wikipedian tags to articles or noting in edit summaries that an editor is obviously involved with the topic and violating policy are not supported by policy; there is nothing in WP:BLOCK that would indicate that Cowman109's block of Haldane Fisher was anything but a wrongful block. FeloniousMonk 18:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• You claim that "he was repeatedly attacked by Asmodeus and DrL" and I sincerely have no recollection of that. Please provide those diffs or remove that otherwise unsupported charge. --DrL 13:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist's suspicions

1) On November 9, 2006 ScienceApologist began to suspect that Asmodeus was Christopher Michael Langan. He posted to Misplaced Pages talk:Autobiography requesting advice and left a polite note on User talk:Asmodeus ]. When Asmodeus responded aggressively , he voiced his suspicions in an aggressive way .

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 17:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

ScienceApologist knows how to flame but this doesn't strike me as an example. There is no claim that what ScienceApologist said didn't need to be said at all, and it would be hard to rephrase it to be much nicer - without removing a veiled hint at a subtext that sounds worse in plain English, like this since ScienceApologist's facts aren't criticized here: Asmodeus/Langan has some nerve editing articles related to himself to spread pseudoscience, then defending it by counterattacking with the little-known harassment policy, thus proving he knows better. Art LaPella 23:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

SA's comment re Asmodeus' identity is undoubtedly assertive, but aggressive? He does at least give reasoning to support the claim. Guy (Help!) 17:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Guy. SA essentially verbalised what others believe to be true. •Jim62sch• 21:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Fred seems to generally be under the impression that any action which can be shown to have led to dischord must necessarily be aggressive. When I retitled a section on my talkpage from "Shades of Hillman" to "Asmodeus equals Christopher Michael Langan?", that, to Fred, was aggressive because it (ostensibly) started the ball rolling with respect to this arbitration. Despite the fact that to me it was merely illustrative of an already present conflict, to Fred (I surmise) anything that in hindsight tends to escalate a conflict is evaluated as aggressive, despite what the intentions of the parties may have been. Fred seems to have a very functionalist view of the Misplaced Pages community, and not a view I necesarily share. --ScienceApologist 18:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Posting of speculative personal information by ScienceApologist

1) ScienceApologist speculated about Asmodeus's real-life identity on Asmodeus's talk page. When Asmodeus objected and warned ScienceApologist about divulgence of personal information, ScienceApologist reposted and expanded the speculation on multiple pages: Asmodeus repeatedly asked for removal of the information, and several other users expressed concern or disapproval: Nonetheless, speculative personal information about Asmodeus remained on ScienceApologist's talk page weeks later.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Voicing of such suspicions in an appropriate forum such as WP:ANI is fine. Repeating it over and over is just harassment. A wide variety of persons who have articles regarding them try editing them or their talk pages in some way, sometimes appropriately, often inappropriately. It is always best to be as diplomatic as possible when dealing with such situations. Fred Bauder 22:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. Science Apologist has been very aggressive in his speculations. He still does not seem to understand that he is violating firm policy as well as eroding the collegial environment we all should be striving towards. --DrL 17:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed to complement "ScienceApologist's suspicions" above, per this evidence. Tim Smith 03:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Potential

1) If Asmodeus is Christopher Michael Langan, or associated with him, he and his associates are potentially valuable contributors, provided they chose to adopt the practices of Misplaced Pages.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 17:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I don't follow this point. Langan's theory CTMU was removed from Misplaced Pages, and the best argument for keeping it was that it had been published elsewhere, not that it made sense. Asmodeus is by far the most aggressive - is it OK to say obnoxious? - editor I have found in science articles, and I don't see how identifying him with someone Misplaced Pages has already discredited, is a sign of future potential. I would think the first priority would be to stop him from driving out any more editors. Art LaPella 01:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"...someone Misplaced Pages has already discredited..." Now, what could that possibly mean? And what on earth does "driving out any more editors" mean? Byrgenwulf, who found time to write just one highly dubious article between recurrent attack seizures, was all but worthless as an editor - he left with his tail between his legs largely because I caught him in numerous embarrassing technical errors when he foolishly insisted on engaging me in a "debate" - and Hillman and Anville announced that they were leaving long before I got here, largely because they couldn't stand getting their edits reverted. My objections to their harassment were of secondary importance. And as everyone here knows, JBKramer left because somebody (not me) supposedly threatened his life. Where do you get your material, outer space? Asmodeus 05:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"...someone Misplaced Pages has already discredited..." was a recap of this sentence: "Langan's theory CTMU was removed from Misplaced Pages, and the best argument for keeping it was that it had been published elsewhere, not that it made sense." If that's the sentence you meant to challenge, we could review the reasons given by those who wanted to keep CTMU. "And what on earth does 'driving out any more editors' mean?" Even by your own account you drove out Byrgenwulf, so of course you know what I mean by driving out any more editors - and I certainly don't accept your spin on this epidemic of departures as my own, as described at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist/Evidence#Credibility for instance. "Where do you get your material"? From Misplaced Pages, as described above. That is an obvious answer, therefore the phrase "outer space" serves no purpose except to further confuse the issues. Art LaPella 06:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Productive contributions would depend on abandoning the notion that brilliant original research is appropriate. Fred Bauder 15:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Inasmuch as any human being on the planet is a potentially valuable contributore, I think that this statement is correct. But Asmodeus' identity is really incidental to his value as a contributor. It is, however, relevant to WP:AUTO and WP:COI. --ScienceApologist 18:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Strikes me as thoroughly counterproductive. Asmodeus, in promoting a view considered by science to be abject pseudoscience, is largely responsible for driving three competent actual expert science editors from the project: Asmodeus has attacked users Anville, Byrgenwulf and Hillman after they confronted him (see Asmodeus RfC and Hillman's now deleted talk page). Both Byrgenwulf and Hillman were threatened with tangible real-world harassment. The project needs actual experts, not less-than-forthcoming, system gaming, and fringe-pov-promoting aggressive husband and wife tag teams. FeloniousMonk 21:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

So now you're accusing me of "threatening Byrgenwulf and Hillman with tangible real-world harassment"? That's over the top even for you! Could you at least make an effort to ensure that what comes out of your mouth bears some small resemblance to what's actually going on in the real world? Honest to betsy, I haven't been lied about and insulted this much since your idol Byrgenwulf left. Asmodeus 05:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with ScienceApologist. I see no reason to believe that it is more likely that Langan has the skills need to write encyclopedia articles for a general audience than Asmodeus does if he is not Langan.--Prosfilaes 22:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Cowman109

1) On November 19 User:Cowman109 indefinitely blocked User:Haldane Fisher for "harassment and posting personal information": Cowman109's block of Haldane deviated substantially from the process and procedures called for at WP:BLOCK and from established Misplaced Pages convention. It was indefinite, far longer than the 24 hour rule of thumb, and was summarily made without any prior warning, discussion or opportunity for community input: Cowman109 failed to follow nearly all of the steps, numbers 3-8, for admins contemplating a block that may be considered controversial given at Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy#Controversial_blocks.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 21:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Asmodeus has attempted to mislead the community about his editing of his own biography

1) Asmodeus insists that he has only made minor typographical edits to his own biography: But 216.139.113.98 (talk · contribs) has made substantial biased edits to the article: It turns out 216.139.113.98 is Asmodeus:

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That's an example of a good faith edit. Someone had just put a lot of information into the article and the edit in question polishes the style without significantly changing the content. This is a good example of how collaboration should work with editors building on each other's work. --DrL 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

First, I've already noted that I edited the CML bio, once to correct a misspelling and once to remove a POV-motivated falsehood by ScienceApologist. Hence, I couldn't possibly have "misled" the Misplaced Pages community to the effect that I made "only typographical edits". Secondly, the thrust of my claim was that I edited the bio neutrally, uncontentiously, and verifiably. I stand by that assertion. Thirdly, since I prefer not to deny or confirm my personal IP address, I'm not going to say whether that was my edit or not. Suffice it to say that if it were, then I still wouldn't owe anyone an apology for it (except perhaps for inadvertently counting only the edits made by "Asmodeus" when I scanned the edit history). To the best of my knowledge, this edit merely rephrases the previous edit with minor informative additions which are factually correct, verifiable, and in conformance with WP:NPOV. Asmodeus 23:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: FeloniousMonk 00:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Right across the border from Missouri (and I do mean right across)...how 'bout that. (Of course it could be DrL). Anyway, perfect area for a horse ranch, too, the Iowa-Missouri border. •Jim62sch• 22:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The second reference above ( ) is clearly not merely a typographical edit. We can argue whether it's a "good faith" edit, but "sophisticated mathematical construct" is not something that should be in Misplaced Pages, even if it were true. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist is uncivil

1) ScienceApologist's repeated use of harsh language is uncivil: "gibberish" "ridiculously long-winded version" "this article needs to be trashed"; "still a sham" "most of the article appears to be in a horrendous state" "ridiculous"; "The current sentence in the article is awful"; "This paragraph you wrote is terrible"; "Your proposal...is ridiculous" "More baiting from the peanut gallery" "nonsense" "fancruft" "Langan-original-research-vanity-cruft"

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

This is all rather tepid and tame compared to the evidence of incivility presented for Asmodeus. Are we grading on a curve now? FeloniousMonk 07:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed. Science Apologist is often uncivil. His incivility has a disruptive effect on the areas he is editing within the encyclopedia. --DrL 17:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Tim Smith 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of these comments are not uncivil but are descriptions of his opinion of article content. And while there may be a tendency to discourage use of *cruft terms they aren't inherently uncivil. (And Fred did make a comment earlier about it being good to call spades spades). JoshuaZ 05:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Par for the course in deletion debates (which is basically what this was, a call for deletion). Guettarda 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Deprecation by ScienceApologist

1) Sometimes using strong negative language, ScienceApologist has deprecated Langan's work: "Lagan's junk" "really not all that revolutionary nor is it very clever" "certainly can categorize it under pseudoscience" "ID is to empricism as CTMU is to metaphysics" "Langan's musings" "flights-of-fancy" "That makes CTMU a pseudoscience"

Comment by Arbitrators:

Yes, more energy than appropriate. Enough that it is original research that doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. Fred Bauder 21:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agree. --DrL 17:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Emphatically agreed. In addition to violating WP:OR, several of these extremely unkind remarks constitute transparent personal attacks against a Misplaced Pages bio subject in violation of WP:LIVING and various other policies. That is, they contain snidely phrased negative judgments on the content and validity of Langan's theory, and thus on the competence of Langan himself...judgments which ScienceApologist evidently means to pass off as the "expert opinion" of (one of) Misplaced Pages's resident "cosmology expert(s)". Such forbidden content/validity judgments are well outside the range of anything that Misplaced Pages can hope to accomplish in the large, and thus threaten to disrupt its operation and ultimately damage its credibility. Moreover, they unavoidably call into question the supposed expert qualifications of ScienceApologist himself, who seems to be widely credited as a cosmology and general science expert here at Misplaced Pages. (While I understand that a given editor's qualifications are usually considered to be off-limits, this case highlights an exception. Specifically, when a soi-disant "expert" shatters WP by making extremely unkind and possibly misleading content/validity judgments at the expense of a Misplaced Pages bio subject and his work, such questions clearly need to be asked, and appropriate verification needs to be provided. After all, ScienceApologist displays what might be considered an extreme level of concern over the qualifications of Christopher Michael Langan himself, indicating that qualifications are extremely important to him. Under these circumstances, he should be more than willing to establish his credentials, or at least put on a live demonstration of expertise, in the actual field of Langan's intellectual contributions.) Asmodeus 18:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Tim Smith 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This proposal is irrelevant. He has given descriptions of his opinions of the subject at hand and in fact what most of the scientific community seems to think about Langan's ideas. SA is entitled to his opinions. In any event, I fail to see how such deprecation is at all relevant to the matter at hand unless Tim thinks that criticizing Langan's ideas should be not allowed. JoshuaZ 05:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

See WP:SPADE. There is nothing wrong with calling it like it is. Have you read Langan's stuff on the CTMU? Guettarda 16:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you? Your question seems like a thinly-veiled attempt to reinforce ScienceApologist's unkind assertions and insinuations. From this, one might infer that you're under the impression that personal opinions regarding the value or validity Langan's work - which could as easily reflect your own bias and incomprehension as the quality of that work itself - have legitimate weight with respect to its treatment here. If so, you're mistaken. It was entirely sufficient for the inclusion of the CTMU article that reliable, verifiable mass media secondary sources were duly provided for it. Its deletion by opinionated editors like you is exactly the kind of POV-driven travesty that Misplaced Pages needs to avoid in the future. Asmodeus 18:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist's failure to extend good faith

1) ScienceApologist has failed to extend good faith: "two users engaged in POV-pushing"; "may be a sockpuppet" "promoted by the group of MENSA-allies" "dragging one's feet in an attempt to get one's way" "Not buying your evangelism attempts, sorry" "acts very much like a meat puppet" "sockpuppets" "this can only be described as POV-pushing" "Sour grapes" "POV-fork"

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

This proposal seems to ignore the "not required to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary" clause of WP:AGF. That, and there's been nop shortage of evidence to the contrary. FeloniousMonk 16:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed. There is no evidence to prove that others are not good faith editors. There has been no evidence presented that supports that contention. In spite of that, Science Apologist does not extend this Misplaced Pages convention as the above examples clearly point out. --DrL 17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Tim Smith 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Possibly some mild failures of AGF. Many of the above difs are at best irrelevant- for example the dif where he says "this can only be described as POV-pushing" seems if anything to be an example of assuming good faith in that he doesn't just call it POV pushing. Similarly, he says that an editors acted like meat puppet, not that the editor was a meat puppet). Furthermore, given that the two main users in question turned out to be precisely who SA said they were its hard to see how what he did wrong.JoshuaZ 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This argument falsely assumes that one cannot have a stake in an article and be a good faith editor at the same time. That is simply not true. --DrL 17:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it assumes that failure to edit consistently with WP:AUTO and WP:COI is strong indicator of bad faith. Incidentally, I note that you didn't bring up the other assumption in the statement- that you and Asmodeus are who I assumed you are. Does that mean you've admitted that? JoshuaZ 17:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it means that your logic is flawed as far as I can tell. --DrL 18:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Please explain. So do you think that I shouldn't make the conclusion that you and Asmodeus are Chris and his wife? JoshuaZ 18:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Please, its not all that relevant. User:William M. Connolley has edited William Connolley and User:Fys has edited David Boothroyd and neither has been sanctioned. It is the manner of the edits and the behavior of the editor that is at issue. See the talk page for extended comments. Thatcher131 18:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC) (I'm busy and this requires more thought; I'll post them soon) Thatcher131 18:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

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1) {text of proposed finding of fact}

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Asmodeus banned

1) Asmodeus is banned from editing Christopher Michael Langan, Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe, Crank (person), Academic elitism, and any pages, excepting talk pages, related to his real-life work for one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Ban might as well be permanent. Fred Bauder 17:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

• Proposed. FeloniousMonk 16:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If adopted (I haven't studied the case carefully and have no view), section header should read "... banned from certain pages" as just "banned" suggests banned from the entire project. Newyorkbrad 03:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That's just the heading. Fred Bauder 03:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that, of course, but the heading is sometimes used as a basis for things like the Signpost description of the status or result of the case that is sent to thousands of users. While of course the heading is only a summary of what is written below, I believe an effort should be made not to have it be potentially inadvertently misleading. I have seen that sort of thing happen. Newyorkbrad 04:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Asmodeus placed on Probation

2) Asmodeus is placed on probation for a year. He may be banned from any article or subject area which he disrupts by aggressive biased editing or incivility.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Probation might as well be indefinite. Fred Bauder 17:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

• Proposed. FeloniousMonk 17:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Asmodeus cautioned

3) Asmodeus is cautioned to be courteous to other users.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 18:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

DrL

4) All remedies which apply to Asmodeus also apply to DrL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and, after warning accompanied by a link to this matter, to any other user with a similar editing pattern.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 20:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

My edits and rationale are actually quite reasonable, if anyone wants to look at my contribs to check. I strive to edit within the guidelines and when challenged, I am willing to collaborate and work with other editors. I do wish there was more of a sense of collaboration instead of an "us" v. "them" mentality and I try to communicate with other editors to facilitate positive change. --DrL 20:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have a bit of confusion regarding DrL's editing of the article Christopher Michael Langan. This is not an ordinary biography in peril of becoming a hagiography; it is an article which has been under almost constant attack for the last several months by people who bear its subject nothing but ill will and are determined to paint him as the worst sort of creationist crackpot. If not for DrL's valiant attempts to maintain its accuracy and neutrality against desperate odds - if not for her willingness to stand one against many - the article would now be in a despicable state, and its subject would have become what amounts to a Misplaced Pages libel victim. This is not because Misplaced Pages means to do this sort of thing to notable people; it is because Misplaced Pages harbors militants and activists who hate the Intelligent Design Movement and anyone remotely connected to it, even through just a single affiliation. In early July, these fanatics found the article, and ever since, have been crawling all over it and relentlessly hounding the person whom they believe to be identical to its subject (me). Misplaced Pages owes DrL an enormous debt of gratitude for championing its values and resisting these attacks while her valor and patience were repaid with nothing but misery. At this point, denying that she has performed an invaluable service for the Misplaced Pages Project would be height of ingratitude and the nadir of reason. She deserves applause, not threats of censure and restriction. Asmodeus 03:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Tim Smith

4a) All remedies which apply to Asmodeus also apply to Tim Smith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and, after warning accompanied by a link to this matter, to any other user with a similar editing pattern.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Tim Smith is an excellent Misplaced Pages editor. His edits are balanced and accurate. I have never had any communication with Tim Smith outside of Misplaced Pages. --DrL 20:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The idea that Tim Smith is a "meatpuppet" is simply insulting. Mr. Smith does not merely echo my views, or as nearly as I can tell, those of CML. I do not know Mr. Smith and had never encountered him prior to finding one of his articles in Misplaced Pages. Even after becoming aware of Mr. Smith's existence here, I have contacted him only minimally and never attempted to put words in his mouth or make him adopt a particular viewpoint, nor do I have any expectation that he would do so if asked. Anyone who denies any of these facts is making baseless, unverified accusations in violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Asmodeus 20:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Tim Smith acts very much like a meat puppet along with this crew. --ScienceApologist 18:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I've expressed this same concern about Tim Smith and meat puppetry myself. I've found Tim Smith hectoring and badgering those who oppose Asmodeus and DrL with bogus "warnings" on their user talk pages, something I've previously cautioned him against. FeloniousMonk 21:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk

5) FeloniousMonk is desysopped.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 15:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably not as serious as I thought. Fred Bauder 18:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Abuse of responsibility is abuse of responsibility, and desysopping is entirely appropriate in this case. That the Haldane Fisher account needed to be blocked immediately was evident from three facts: (1) it was brand new and echoed the charges being leveled by one side in an ongoing dispute (but more viciously), (2) it was being used for the single purpose of violating WP:LIVING, WP:NPA, and WP:HARASS, and (3) it was generating constant damage against CML ("crank", etc.) and against me (personal information harassment). As I see it, there is no question whatsoever that Cowman109 did precisely the right thing. FeloniousMonk, being equally aware of these three facts, unquestionably did the wrong thing, evidently because "Haldane Fisher" was taking his own (anti-ID) side in the dispute. Quite simply, it appears that FeloniousMonk smelled an opportunity to use Haldane Fisher as a convenient fire-and-forget missile of personal harassment against me and a certain WP bio subject, cooked up a lame rationalization, and loosed the hound, which then proceeded to continue to do exactly what everyone, including FeloniousMonk, expected it to do, namely, commit unbridled aggression. I'd find it extremely disappointing were this likelihood to be ignored in favor of a transparent rationalization like "But poor attack account Haldane Fisher's precious right to be warned was violated! (Who cares about the people he was savaging?)". It's really very simple: if FeloniousMonk can't exercise his authority fairly and symmetrically, even in cases where he is personally psychologically involved, then he shouldn't be a sysop. Letting him continue to abuse his authority is not fair to the rest of Misplaced Pages. Asmodeus 15:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• It is entirely appropriate that Felonious Monk should be desysopped for serially abusing his administrator status. His unblocking of Hal(dane) Fisher was just one example of his gaming the system. He has twice brought blocks against me for bogus 3RR "violations" during this arbitration. This represented a clear conflict of interest as it intefered with my ability to participate in the arbitration proceedings, much of which has to do with complaints against him. He then used these bogus blocks to call for a partial ban of my account. This is outrageous behavior for an admin. --DrL 21:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, among the many problems with the above- anyone can report 3RR and since uninvolved admins agreed with FM that you had gone over 3RR it is very hard to see them as "bogus" reports. JoshuaZ 21:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• I expect that the fact that FM is an administrator gives undue weight to his reports. Naturally, administrators support the actions of each other (and if their behaviors all followed the rules, and did not seek to game the sytem, that would not necessarily be a bad thing). --DrL 23:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

So you think that admins don't check the difs when they see reports from other admins? Furthermore, the implication of this notion is dangerous in the extreme. Simply being a well-respected editor makes what an editor does possibly dessyopable? It is ridiculous to even consider desysoping someone for actions that a) didn't involve the admin tools and b) were backed up by uninvolved admins. There is exactly one questionable use of admin tools here and that was the unblock. The consensus seems to be that that unblock did not merit desysopping. So enough. JoshuaZ 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Felonious Monk's serial abuse of administrator status and tools is detrimental to Misplaced Pages. His actions, as I and others have outlined, are serious enough to warrant discussion and probable sanction. As this extends beyond his support of anti-ID socks, I should probably elaborate in a new proposal. --DrL 17:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I don't see how a case has been made for this. This action was a lot less controversial than Fred's block of deeceevoice a year ago for "discourtesy" (discourtesy to Fred, mind you). Seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Guettarda 16:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If the kettle is black, which may not be true in this case, then WP:SPADE. Fred Bauder 18:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I assume you feel that FM is so involved in opposing Intelligent Design topics that he should not have taken admin action regarding pro-ID editors and articles. If so, I would be more comfortable with additional findings of fact along this line, showing other lapses in administrative judgement in re: Intelligent Design. If this is the only major lapse, how about a temporary desysopping or some form of admin probation? Thatcher131 16:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, what? It is possible that FM should have discussed the unblock with Cowman before making it but failure to discuss hardly constitutes a desyssopable offense. JoshuaZ 16:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

At the request of User:Asmodeus and User:DrL, on November 19 User:Cowman109 indefinately blocked User:Haldane Fisher without issuing a prior warning: Why? Because Haldane Fisher repeated the same point raised by User:Hillman, ScienceApologist and many others that Asmodeus and DrL are serially violating WP:AUTO and WP:COI to conduct a pov campaign of self-promotion. Cowman109's block of Haldane Fisher was done without warning and was unilateral, without any appropriate community discussion or input as far as I could tell: My unblocking of Haldane Fisher was meant to remedy what in my view was an painfully obvious wrongful block and abuse of admin tools. FeloniousMonk 17:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there was no warning or discussion. Fred Bauder 18:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that this proposal is just a bit over the top for the actions taken. It's also interesting that a community that insists on AGFing everything under the sun can't even assume neutral faith in this issue. Could FM have discussed the unblock? Of course. But since Cowman did not post to AN/I it would seem that Cowman was not truly amenable to conversation on the topic. •Jim62sch• 22:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is simply an over the top remedy (and not even possible since neither he nor I were named parties to this arbcom case). I should have left a note somewhere I guess, but at the time I figured that the block was obvious by the user's harassment and actions and that there would be no controversy about it. I still remain unconvinced that Haldane Fisher is anything but a disruptive user (just look at his edits after his unblocking, riddled with more disruption and personal attacks), so that should be discussed instead. I really have no qualms about people undoing my actions - I encourage it if someone thinks I'm out of line. Cowman109 22:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Desysopping for one unblock (which seems to be all that is alleged) would require truly extraordinary circumstances not alleged to be present here, and as noted, Felonious Monk isn't even a party to the case. Newyorkbrad 03:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree entirely. One unblock does not constitute wheelwarring. And as for DrL's allegations of serial misuse of admin status, how does reporting someone for 3RR constitute misuse of admin status? FeloniousMonk's name doesn't even appear on DrL's block log. AnnH ♫ 21:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently I am a party now: If my unblocking of Haldane Fisher warrants being listed as a party to this proceeding then Cowman109's demonstrably improper blocking of him that prompted my taking action certainly warrants it as well. FeloniousMonk 08:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there precedent for an administrator being desysopped for unblocking? --ScienceApologist 18:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Haldane Fisher and Hal Fisher banned

6) Haldane Fisher and Hal Fisher are banned indefinitely.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 15:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

• Agreed. Serial nastiness from a single-purpose account. --DrL 21:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Repeated violations of WP:NPA and WP:STALK. This recent edit is particularly disturbing. --DrL 17:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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I see no reason for this. It might make sense to strongly caution him regarding his editing and/or restrict his editing on certain topics but I see no reason for an indefinite ban. JoshuaZ 16:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Haldane Fisher and Hal Fisher are put on probation

6b) Haldane Fisher may be banned from any article or set of articles by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive editing or POV pushing on Langan related articles.

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Proposed as an alternative to the above. JoshuaZ 21:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Given this edit, wherein Fisher identifies DrL's alleged place of employment on a completely unrelated page for no obvious reason, it is clear this is a single purpose harassment account. Can you find a single edit in his history that is not either an attempt to out DrL and Asmodeus or revert one of them? This behavior would absolutely not be tolerated if it were directed at someone who is generally liked and respected, like Simon Pulsifer or William Connolley, and it should not be tolerated when it is directed at someone who is not a well respected Wikipedian. Thatcher131 00:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, after that and recent edits I agree with you. JoshuaZ 00:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist counseled

1) ScienceApologist is counseled to be more patient and diplomatic with inexperienced users who may edit their own article or advance original research. Many users err in their initial efforts, but eventually become valued contributors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 17:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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Any evidence that I was impatient or undiplomatic with regards to the subject of this arbitration? --ScienceApologist 18:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Fred Bauder 19:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

See Asmodeus' earliest contribs - this is not an inexperienced user, and was not at the time of that comment (9 Nov) either. I think by 9 Nov Asmodeus had pretty much revealed who he was and why he was here. Guy (Help!) 15:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I asked specifically for guidance with respect to this matter at AN/I and at WP:AUTO and got no indications that I was being undiplomatic. I don't think that proposing the question of whether someone is a particular rl individual is undiplomacy when COI and AUTO are on the line. --ScienceApologist 18:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Cowman109 is cautioned

1) Cowman109 is cautioned to follow procedures laid out at WP:BLOCK when blocking, particularly to seek public input from the community or other administrators when considering controversial blocks.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

I, for one, thank Cowman109 for alertly doing his job. He had every reason to block the Fisher account, and any failure to do so would have put the rights of an obvious single-purpose attack account ahead of my rights and the rights of a Misplaced Pages bio subject (Christopher Michael Langan). That obviously would have been a mistake. Furthermore, what I suspect might otherwise have happened goes something like this: (1) Cowman109 warns Fisher; (2) FeloniousMonk sees the warning on Fisher's talk page; (3) FeloniousMonk, eager for Fisher to continue his attacks on FeloniousMonk's opponents, steps in as Fisher's administrative advocate; (4) Cowman109, hesitant to gainsay another administrator, takes the matter under advisement; (5) Fisher, emboldened by his victory and brimming with gratitude for the protection received from FeloniousMonk, redoubles his attacks. Indeed, except for steps 1 and 2, this is precisely what we've seen! Thanks to Cowman109's fast action, at least an obvious troll was temporarily put out of action. Asmodeus 01:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed. FeloniousMonk 21:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I considered this an obvious block, not a controversial one, so I don't think this applies. It's more of a judgement call failure on my part for not suspecting that the block would be controversial. And WP:BLOCK does specifically say not to unblock without seeking clarification or attempting to discuss the matter, but I understand your actions of course as I did not leave any note on the user's talk page. Cowman109 21:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If we are talking about one block, it wouldn't seem to require ArbCom action or even a caution, as a dispute over a single block would never been an arbitration case if the block hadn't happened to come up in the context of a broader dispute. A pattern of course would be different but I don't think that's alleged here. Newyorkbrad 01:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Newyorkbrak here. This entire matter of both the block and the unblock is being brought way out of proportion. JoshuaZ 01:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the block; there was a case for that. But as far as the unblock is concerned...there, we have a clear conflict of interest and attendant abuse of administrative authority. That is, we have an administrator acting to the undeserved advantage of someone on his own side of the fence, to the detriment of someone on the other side of the fence (as well as a Misplaced Pages bio subject whom Misplaced Pages is morally obligated to protect from violations of WP:LIVING). That's what makes the unblock far worse than the block which preceded it. Such behavior is totally unacceptable, especially coming from an administrator who spends so much of his time hypocritically attacking others over alleged conflicts of interest. Asmodeus 02:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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