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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Could page title be more accurate?

From initial reports, there was no shooting at or in the synagogue, and those who died were a passersby and a client in a kebab shop, both unrelated to the synagogue. Perhaps "2019 Halle attack" or something similar would be better. Jontel (talk) 15:12, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I support this suggestion! Maybe the synagoge was the first aim of the nazis, but they shot people randomly, cause the victims where enemies of their ideology (yewish garveyard, turkish kebab shop). --Outdoor-Bro (talk) 15:23, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

As per your suggestions and WP:BOLD, I moved the title from "2019 Halle synagogue shooting" to "2019 Halle attack". Wakari07 (talk) 15:46, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I've moved to "2019 Halle antisemitic attack" in keeping with sources. Example: "Germany: mass shooting attempt that killed two was antisemitic attack, minister says" Bus stop (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Antisemitism wouldn't have been the motive for shooting the person in the kebab shop, nor shooting the electrician. We don't usually include the motive in our article titles. If we were to routinely do so, February 2016 Ankara bombing would be renamed February 2016 Ankara Kurdish nationalist bombing & 7 August 2019 Kabul bombing would be renamed 7 August 2019 Islamist bombing. Jim Michael (talk) 23:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Consider these excerpts from a source:

"a gunman in a military-style outfit tried to force his way into a synagogue in an attempted mass shooting"

"Based on current information, we have to assume that it was at least an antisemitic attack"

"Security at synagogues around Germany was boosted in the wake of the attack"

"Between 70 and 80 people had gathered in the synagogue in the area to celebrate Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year in Judaism, when they heard the shots outside the building. Via a security camera, they could make out a man trying to enter the building by shooting at the locks."

"The attacker repeatedly shot at the door and also threw several Molotov cocktails, firecrackers and grenades to force his way in,” the head of the the Jewish community in Halle, Max Privorotzki, told Der Spiegel magazine."

"But the door stayed shut, God protected us. The whole thing lasted perhaps five to 10 minutes,” Privorotzki added. Worship continued after the attack, he said."

It was primarily an antisemitic attack. Bus stop (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I've made this edit as I actually think the original title was best: 2019 Halle synagogue attack. Bus stop (talk) 00:18, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Jontel writes "there was no shooting at or in the synagogue" but this source says "Between 70 and 80 people had gathered in the synagogue in the area to celebrate Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year in Judaism, when they heard the shots outside the building. Via a security camera, they could make out a man trying to enter the building by shooting at the locks." I would interpret "shooting at the locks" as "shooting at or in the synagogue". That source says "The attacker repeatedly shot at the door". If they "shot at the door" then there was "shooting at or in the synagogue". Bus stop (talk) 00:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The synagogue was the initial target, but there were also attacks away from the synagogue on the same day, apparently by the same man. This article is about all the day's linked attacks. The reason that the article was moved from its original title was that the synagogue wasn't the only target. Jim Michael (talk) 01:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The assailant created a video in which they said "The root of all these problems is the Jew." Based on this I'd say the attack was primarily antisemitic, and the source I just quoted uses the headline "Assailant Live-Streamed Attempted Attack on German Synagogue". The headline used in the source would support our terminology 2019 Halle synagogue attack. Bus stop (talk) 01:30, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

There are other aspects of his ideology, and it's unlikely that the attacker was looking for Jews in a kebab shop. Having antisemitic and/or synagogue in the title makes it sound like that was the whole attack. Jim Michael (talk) 02:12, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

This was primarily a synagogue attack. All indications in presently available sources are that this was an instance of antisemitism. "A heavily armed gunman with a live-streaming head camera tried to storm a synagogue in eastern Germany on Wednesday as congregants observed the holiest day in Judaism. Foiled by a locked door, he killed two people outside and wounded two others in an anti-Semitic spree that smacked of far-right terrorism." The gunman was "Foiled by a locked door". The locked door prevented the gunman from getting in the synagogue. The subject of the article is primarily a "synagogue attack". Bus stop (talk) 02:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

It was a primarily a killing spree after a failed synagogue attack. It's being investigated as murder, a hate crime if you wish. If it was 'only' the synagogue attack, it wouldn't have its own article. The background is worse than antisemitic. Wakari07 (talk) 06:59, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it was an attack spree after failing to attack the synagogue. The spree is more notable than the initial attempted attack. Jim Michael (talk) 12:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is the relevant guideline, rather than subjective impressions of intended or actual target. IMO, sources endorse use of 'Halle synagogue' attack as the title. Pincrete (talk) 13:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Wakari07—I don't think merely shooting at the locks of a synagogue would be construed as a minor incident and therefore not worthy of news coverage. You are saying "If it was 'only' the synagogue attack, it wouldn't have its own article." Bus stop (talk) 14:14, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

It would have received some news coverage, but there wouldn't be a WP article: lone attacker, minor damage, no casualties. Jim Michael (talk) 14:21, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

"there wouldn't be a WP article" Seriously? "Between 70 and 80 people had gathered in the synagogue in the area to celebrate Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year in Judaism, when they heard the shots outside the building. Via a security camera, they could make out a man trying to enter the building by shooting at the locks. 'The attacker repeatedly shot at the door and also threw several Molotov cocktails, firecrackers and grenades to force his way in,' the head of the the Jewish community in Halle, Max Privorotzki, told Der Spiegel magazine." This is occurring post Christchurch mosque shootings. And there wouldn't be an article? We have an article on Mike the Headless Chicken. We have articles on Graffiti "artists". But 70 to 80 people narrowly escaping death would not warrant an article? That incident alone would not garner major news coverage? Bus stop (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

If the article had existed, it would have been deleted or redirected as insufficiently notable due to there having been no injuries. The media coverage is largely because there was a 'madman on the rampage'. Four people were killed in the Kansas City, Kansas bar shooting and another four in the 2019 Lower Manhattan killings. Both were quickly redirected. Jim Michael (talk) 14:59, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

You say "Both were quickly redirected." You may be correct. I just don't know. But where would we find evidence of that? Bus stop (talk) 15:21, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I am. Look at the histories of the redirects, which state the times and dates that they were created as articles as well as the times & dates that they were turned into redirects. Jim Michael (talk) 15:25, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Bus stop: Click here. Quickly means one hour and twenty-four minutes. Wakari07 (talk) 15:35, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Again, the attack failed to hurt the people inside the synagogue. The motive was deeper than 'only' antisemitism. The title shouldn't reflect a reductionist viewpoint. The killed and injured occurred on the street and in a kebab restaurant. Wakari07 (talk) 15:31, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, it wasn't limited to Halle, so the title should be Halle and Landsberg attack. Or perhaps because there are other Halles and Landsbergs, it should be 2019 Saxony-Anhalt attack. Jim Michael (talk) 16:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Jim Michael—the synagogue that was attacked is the "Halle synagogue". It is referred to as the "Halle synagogue", as in "A total of 51 congregants, including 10 young American visitors, were in the Halle synagogue during the assault, committed on Yom Kippur, the most solemn religious day for Jews. Officials said none were believed hurt." (Emphasis added by me.) Bus stop (talk) 16:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Jim Michael—you are the editor who created the now-redirected "Kansas City, Kansas bar shooting". Doesn't that indicate that in your assessment such an article was warranted? And the other article you refer to—the "2019 Lower Manhattan killings"—what indication do we have that that there was ever such an article? Bus stop (talk) 16:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Click on 2019 Lower Manhattan killings, which redirects to Crime in New York City#2010s. Go to the top of that page, click on 2019 LMk at the top of the page, then click on history. You'll see that the article existed for 9h 36m before it was redirected

I think that both that article & the Kansas one should exist as articles rather than redirects. Jim Michael (talk) 16:27, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh, you created that article too, Jim Michael. Well I certainly agree with you there. I was thinking of creating an article on the bludgeoning deaths of the 4 homeless men. (And the critical-injuring of a fifth homeless man.) I certainly think that warrants an article. (And thanks for the lesson in how to use the "history" in redirects.) Bus stop (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, & I was disappointed with the media coverage being limited & few people editing the article, then it being redirected. As with the Kansas article, if it's turned back into an article, I'll add to it. Jim Michael (talk) 17:15, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Wakari07—yes, I am aware that the "the attack failed to hurt the people inside the synagogue". How would that obviate the existence of an article? You are writing "If it was 'only' the synagogue attack, it wouldn't have its own article." I don't understand the significance of "The title shouldn't reflect a reductionist viewpoint." If you could clarify, it might help. Bus stop (talk) 16:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Bus stop: I don't feel the need to WP:BADGER this section, since I made my point. Wakari07 (talk) 16:15, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Probably "2019 Halle attack" is more accurate. The attack at the synagogue failed, so he started to shot on bystanders and to the kebab shop. Gianluigi02 (talk) 17:30, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The attacks weren't confined to Halle. Jim Michael (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

And they weren’t confined to the synagogue either. At the very beginning, the attacker talks about “feminism” and “the Jew” (sic) being the roots of all evil. He pledges to kill as many “non-whites” as possible. So the female passerby (who mildly challenges him over making noise) isn’t merely shot during his escape. She likely incurred his wrath by simply being a woman who dared challenge him. He then deliberately murders her. The same can be said about the man in the the kebab shop, who the terrorist (falsely, it later turns out) mistakes for an employee of likely immigrant and/or Muslim background. He deliberately murders him, going back several times. This is very different from the male passersby he encounters outside. Being neither female nor likely to be immigrants, he fires a few warning shots, but doesn’t pursue them. Bottom line, he was targeting women and (non-white) immigrants just as much as Jews. Good that the article name now reflects this. —ThorstenNY (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Where the attack(s) took place is largely irrelevant. WP:COMMONNAME applies - if sources refer to the synagogue in their headlines and do not refer to this event as plural 'attacks' and do not refer to Landsberg, - then this present title is wholly wrong. Accessibility trumps pedantic notions of accuracy when it comes to titles. Where will the reader expect to find the article? I came here knowing only Halle and synagogue, as I suspect will many other readers.

History is littered with accepted names which are inaccurate or incomplete (Battle of Hastings wasn't in Hastings - the attack on Pearl Harbor wasn't solely in PH, but coincided with other attacks on installations throughout Hawaii - a recent terrorist attack in London started at London Bridge, but continued in the adjacent area of Borough Market - the commonname is London Bridge attack though). Pincrete (talk) 07:22, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

nb, the use of the plural 'attacks', causes the grammatical nonsense of "The Halle and Landsberg attacks was a .... attack". Then throughout the article we continue singular 'attack'. I believe that no sources have referred to this as other than a singular event with several phases, and the present title is pure WP:OR. Pincrete (talk) 08:50, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Temporarily, I have made the title singular, though I think that "2019 Halle attack" or "2019 Halle synagogue attack" both reflect more accurately the commonname as it is being used in English language sources.Pincrete (talk) 09:09, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

This title (2019 Halle synagogue attack and subsequent shootings) is admittedly long but I think it addresses this dispute. Bus stop (talk) 12:38, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Bus stop, this is the third time that you move the article title according to your agenda instead of consensus. Wakari07 (talk) 12:52, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

"2019 Halle synagogue attack and subsequent shootings" is a long title. The preovious was more accurate. Gianluigi02 (talk) 13:06, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Wakari07—I think WP:CONSENSUS prefers WP:COMMONNAME. I have added to the common name ("2019 Halle synagogue attack") additional wording ("and subsequent shootings") to address some of the issues raised here by you and others. You are apparently taking issue with the title I have chosen. Why don't you be specific and critique the title I have chosen? In other words—what is wrong with it? Please be specific and please avoid unclear phraseology such as "reductionist viewpoint". Bus stop (talk) 13:10, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Bus stop, I think it's a reductionist viewpoint to think that WP:Consensus is just what I think. Wakari07 (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Please critique the title I've chosen. In other words—what's wrong with it, in your opinion? We aren't necessarily discussing philosophy. We are trying to choose the best title. You make the valid point that the incident involves more than just the synagogue attack. My strategy is to include both the synagogue attack and the subsequent shootings in the title. Where have I erred? Bus stop (talk) 13:19, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Qualification of terrorism

"Hinweise darauf, dass hinter der Tat eine terroristische Vereinigung stehe, gebe es bislang noch nicht, sagte der Sprecher, das könne sich aber noch ändern."

- According to the spokesperson, for now there are no indications of a terrorist organisation behind the action, but that could still change. Wakari07 (talk) 19:56, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

The definition of terrorism differ from one national legal systems to another. The German federal legal system reflects the shape of terrorist-organizations of the 70th, prominently the RAF. It is not incoperating the differnt right-wing structures in the past and recently. The German statutory offense is "building of an terrorist organization" (three or more individuals) and "membership of an terrorist organization". This idea don´t reflect the on going lone wolf strategy, which is executed by right-wing terrorists. The term domestic terrorism is not used in Germany.

In fact the attack in Halle was domestic right-wing terrorism, cause the attacker was motivated by an (stupid) antesmitic and xenophobic idiology. --Outdoor-Bro (talk) 10:03, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Now Justice Minister Christine Lambrecht is unequivocal in naming it as a terror attack. Netanyahu did so too . Wakari07 (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Terror is not synonymous with terrorism. 'Terror' is often used by politicians and media when they are not yet certain what the motive is. 'Terrorism' has precise (legal) definitions, 'terror' doesn't. Pincrete (talk) 07:26, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Like I mentioned before, the legal definition of terrorism differ quiet much. 'Terror' is often used by political intentions, thats right. But even if the German Prosecture take it as a "far right motivated crime, heavliy affecting the internal security of Germany", is this discribing what in political science is called right-wing terrorism. It is terrorism against a society democratic represented by a federal state. In parts of German society (including de.Misplaced Pages) there is the tendencie to lower the fact and discripe it as an "crime of an individual, right-wing motivated". But this is not reflecting what we know from other right-wing terrorist attacks like NSU and others. We should stay true. --Outdoor-Bro (talk) 08:00, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Streaming

Now sources saying it was not streamed but uploaded afterwards. --Itu (talk) 22:23, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Most sources I'm seeing include Twitch itself say it was live streamed with 5 viewers watching the live stream. The stream was automatically made available as a video on demand which was watched by 2200 viewers. Now of course copies of the VOD (I assume) are being shared on 4chan etc. He apparently threw his smart phone out the window and was I suspect arrested not long later so I don't see how he would have uploaded it afterwards anyway unless he says streaming it but privately to some service or person who uploaded it. Nil Einne (talk) 03:11, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

birth place of shooter

The shooter is from Eisleben, Saxony-Anhalt. I couldn't cite the source, because somebody put the newspaper article on wikipedia's blacklist. Here it is https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/09/two-people-killed-in-shooting-in-german-city-of-halle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:13B5:DD40:A578:6A2F:BE3E:957B (talk) 01:53, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

If the source was on the blacklist you wouldn't be able to post it above unless it was whitelisted for this page which I find unlikely. Some one could have added the source to an edit filter to block it being added to an article which isn't what is normally meant by the blacklist but even that seems unlikely. More likely your edit triggered an edit filter. But most likely you did trigger the blacklist but not because the article is banned. When you tried to add the source to the article you provided a different URL to the one you linked above. Do note that URL shortener services like t.co, tiny.cc etc can't be linked to, you need to link the article proper. Likewise links from Google search results google.com/url? and also Google AMP links that you may end up with while browsing on mobile devices can't be used. Nil Einne (talk) 03:22, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

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