Misplaced Pages

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What I do on Misplaced Pages.

My rewards.

What's up?

I mainly follow up on pages from my watchlist, occasionally adding new pages to it that spiked my interest.

Can you help identify these favicons?

I would like to make a little personal use of this talk page.

I collect favicons. I have over 8,000 of them. A few of them are my 'orphans': I do not know the sites they came from.

I you think you could help, and want to do me a big favor, please have a look at them.

My 'orphan' favicons

Thanks! Debresser (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried using Google Images' search by image function. benzband (talk) 17:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC) _{Please leave me a {{talkback}} if you reply}

Yes. But thanks for the suggestion. Debresser (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• I now have over 10,000 favicons onwebsite, and the number of orphans is down to 11! Debresser (talk) 00:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Special characters

{{Help me}} Just like & #123; gives {, I would like to know how to make , and '. Where is there a list of these things? I looked, e.g. in Misplaced Pages:Special_character, but didn't find what I am looking for. Debresser (talk) 12:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.degraeve.com/reference/specialcharacters.php --Closedmouth (talk) 13:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Isn't there anything on WIkipedia? Debresser (talk) 13:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If there is, it's well hidden. --Closedmouth (talk) 15:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

List of XML and HTML character entity references ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  13:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment response

Hi Debresser, I left you a comment. here https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Haredi_Judaism GizzyCatBella (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Reversions at Esther and Vashti

As always, your lack of self-awareness is astonishing! All the abuse you you lavish on those who dare to disagree with you applies more appropriately to you. Johnbod (talk) 01:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I remember you as a hothead editor, and your recent behavior only confirmed that. Debresser (talk) 10:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Review while LeChaParat Pesha is open?

Somehow I saw the following (Talk:Posek)-

Quote

Actually, most of the rabbis in Category:Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis are very minor figures (most of those articles should be put up for deletion as they violate the basics of not adhering to WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO) that have been pumped up and fluffed up with PR but that in no way reflects their greatness as rabbis or anything for that matter. Watch out, the editorial sword cuts both ways. IZAK

What does Chabad have to do with this? Stop poisoning the well. Debresser (talk) 10:02, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd like to review your comment on R'Zev Leff re Notability. I'm not claiming that his sefer on Shmoneh Essray puts him in the league of Rabbi Paysach Krohn. Chodesh Tov. Pi314m (talk) 11:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Pi314m I remember making that comment over 8 years ago. I also remember the issue. What I fail to understand is how that is connected to my comment regarding the notability of Zev_Leff?

I stand behind my comment, that judging from his article, he is not notable. And I think the issue of his notability has nothing to do with my comment from 8 years ago.Debresser (talk) 16:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Pashtuns are a typical Indus Valley population and aren't close to the Ashkenazim

I am being reasonable and basing it on thorough genome-wide analyses. They have little in common with Askhenazi Jews:

Wadaad (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Third opinion

A disagreement involving you have been added to Misplaced Pages:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements CapnZapp (talk) 10:50, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for this notification. Debresser (talk) 23:27, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Just in case you have pinging turned off

SherriffIsInTown is appealing the i-ban with you here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Interaction and topic ban appeal. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I actually have it turned on. Thanks though, I'll go there now. Debresser (talk) 00:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Esther

Must I really do another RFC? The last one produced a fairly clear result, which you are now ignoring (despite invoking in an edit summary earlier). The fact that information is referenced does not mean it should be in the infobox - see WP:INFOBOX. Such a bore! Please reply here, not on my page. Johnbod (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I see nothing in that Rfc that says that this specific information should not be in the infobox. If you understand the results of the Rfc otherwise, please explain. I am open for your comments here. Debresser (talk) 23:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, it actually wasn't a formal RFC I think - I am entirely happy to have one of those; I expect you can imagine it is not likely to support your edit. Though that discussion certainly produced varying points, the main drift was, as I said in the final post in the section, was that the information in the box should be restricted to what is actually contained in the biblical account. If that is not clear to you then perhaps we should have another RFC, with specific options. That biblical information does not include her burial place. Additionally, it seems there are at least two claimants for this, according to the article (neither really supported by WP:RS, but let's ignore that). An infobox is not the place to mislead by including contested or contentious facts, especially when one possibility is included and another excluded for no reason that is explained, and when it is not key and essential information, and typically not given in infoboxes for people, even where it is certain. I hope that helps. Johnbod (talk) 15:40, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

You removed two things: Queen of Persia and burial in Hamadan, Iran.

1. For some reason, your post here doesn't mention the first, and I think the reason is because you recognize that your edit regarding Queen of Persia was a mistake, since the Biblical story clearly supports this, as the article states clearly in its first sentences.
2. I understand your point regarding the mix up of the Biblical and non-Biblical facts regarding the burial place. On the other hand, if there were no Biblical story, there'd be no alleged burial place, so I am afraid you'll have to admit that these two are closely related. In other words, if you hold that there is a real grave, you have to cease being opposed to writing the article as though it were some fictional story. Debresser (talk) 17:48, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

The "rfc" comments on "Queen of Persia", are pretty clear, aren't they? They are to me. You do realize that a very large proportion of Biblical scholars from a wide variety of backgrounds do indeed believe that the Book of Esther was indeed written, and intended to be understood, as precisely a work of fiction? This question is addressed in that article, but not here, which it really should be, but that's not my point now. But under the circumstances, it seems POV to insist she must have a grave, let alone that we know where it is, and that one particular competing claim is correct. It seems rather odd, given your stated occupation, that you seem to be having difficulty telling apart things that are actually in the bible and theories and traditions that aren't, but relate to biblical matters. In any case, you don't address the issue of the 2nd tradition. Johnbod (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Excuse for barging in here, but as far as I know there is no existing reliable historical evidence for any of the details of the biblical story in the book of Esther, not even for the basic fact that any of the characters indeed existed in actual history. I mean, I myself do not believe, from the existing historical evidence, that any of the biblical characters such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc., right on down to Esther (and Jesus for that matter), really existed in historical reality. But the first ones above, which are the really important ones, are also much more difficult to knock down and erase from popular/religious belief in some type of "religious history" that never really occurred. The latter one, and the subject here, is rather elementary as far as I am concerned. That is why I also think it should not have an Infobox at all to begin with. But all that is just my own personal vote, which is already on record on the RfC there. Thank you, warshy 19:54, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, I also supported no infobox at all, but the discussion didn't clearly go that way, so I agreed to settle for a box with just the info actually in the bible. As I've been attempting to explain above, the Book of Esther is in a rather special position, as there are many biblical scholars who broadly accept what we may call the historicity of other parts of the bible, but regard Esther as different, & written with the intention of being understood as a moral work of fiction. Debresser's argument about the grave above is therefore a POV denial of that possibility. Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

I, for one, completely agree with you again. Thanks, warshy 20:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, the issue of the Queen of Persia remains unaddressed, so that is as good as an admission of your mistake.

I remain of the opinion that if we have a Biblical person, historical or not, then we can have a grave ascribed to that person. This point of view seems to me to be in complete agreement with the Rfc. To say otherwise, seems illogical. I see therefore absolutely no problem to have to location of that grave in the infobox. Debresser (talk) 02:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

The "queen of Persia" is not "unaddressed", you are just refusing to accept the rfc, as you are now blatently doing re the burial. "Complete agreement with the Rfc" indeed! All arguments are brushed aside; this is how you get a reputation. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I am willing to listen. Please explain what is wrong with "Queen of Persia"? It is after all part of the text of the Book of Esther, that she became queen, so what do you find wrong with it? Debresser (talk) 17:04, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

This has been explained to you several times, and was supported in the rfc (or whatever it was). I'd be willing to compromise on a "Queen of Persia, according to the biblical Book of Esther in the "occupation" box lower down (though if we do a further RFC to nail the question, others might not be), but not in the header. This was what started the whole issue. On the alleged grave, how do you justify choosing one claimed grave over the other? Johnbod (talk) 02:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

If you ask me, the core of the problem is that from the perspective being described here, the character of Esther is treated neither as definitively real nor as definitively fictional. She is in the "gray zone"—not certainly one, and not certainly the other. Yet we only have two templates in play here: {{Infobox royalty}} and {{Infobox character}}. Instructions for the former strictly prohibit its use for fictional characters. The latter is clearly for the use of fictional characters.

So how is this handled for others? Abraham and Isaac get {{Infobox character}}. David gets {{Infobox monarch}}. Jesus gets {{Infobox person}}. Why? Who decided?
On the whole, I think the best way to handle a situation like this is to allow the infobox to contain the all facts related to the context of the notability of the character. Therefore: because the notability of the character of Esther is through the Biblical book, all facts in the Biblical book, and all facts traditionally taken as true of the Biblical character (as suported by RS, of course), are allowable.

• Where there is a choice between an unambiguous fact and an ambiguous one, choose the unambiguous one. Thus, the header preferably says "Biblical character" (certainly true), rather than "Queen of Persia" (not certainly true).
• Where an ambiguous fact is included, it's easy enough to add a tag like (trad.) or something similar. It isn't always necessary: If the article on Abraham had included "occupation=shepherd", would someone have cried out that it is unproved? Everyone will understand that he is described in the Bible as a shepherd. But here, one probably should, because queens of Persia have some inherent notability, unlike shepherds.
• I think I'd either use {{infobox person}}, which is a pretty neutral template, or actually subst. out an infobox and put a customized one here, so that the very presence of an infobox is not taken as a claim.

I absolutely hate it when two sides need to fight to be "right" about something here, when there are perfectly reasonable middle grounds possible. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:06, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Based on the unofficial Rfc, I think that I agree with your conclusion, that we can say "Queen of Persia", as long as we call the infobox "Biblical figure". Debresser (talk) 01:12, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

StevenJ81, while I agree that infobox person is probably the better route, this doesn't really address the issues here. Esther (and Vashti) are not comparable to Abraham or David, of whom one would not really expect any record in the histories or surviving documents of other nations. Esther is much later, and this is not the case for her. There is also a large body of scholarly opinion who believe that the Esther story is written, and intended to be understood, as purely a work of fiction, in a way that is fundamentally different from the majority of the bible, and not the case for Abraham or David. They see it as literature rather than history. The Book of Job would be one other example. In addition the claim "Queen of Persia" refers to a non-Israelite culture - there are several "queens of Persia", like Atossa, of whom we have records, and there is more than a hint of cultural appropriation here. The rfc was especially concerned with this aspect. Let's be plain here: it is not just "not certainly true" that there was a historical queen of Persia called Esther, with facts matching the biblical story in some way, I do not think you will find a single RS that supports this as a historical fact, outside the Bible. This is quite different from the case with figures from Genesis, where many scholars may be happy to believe that the traditions of these figures relate to some actual historical figure, following the occupation the Bible describes.

I can go as far as accepting "Queen of Persia, according to the Book of Esther" in the middle of the box, but not as a header. Lots of real historical figures are in the Bible, and it is vital to preserve the distinction, as the rfc confirmed. Your "best way to handle a situation like this" is odd - it goes way beyond WP:INFOBOX in including everything. Infoboxes are for giving the most important facts that are certain and unambiguous. There are several problems with the grave - it selects one claimed site, and ignores the other, for no reason that has ever been given. It takes a POV line that Esther was a real person. At least one clearly fictional character, Charles Dickens' Little Nell in The Old Curiosity Shop had a "grave" that was a profitable tourist attraction in the 19th century, but we should not be putting such stuff in an infobox. Johnbod (talk) 03:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Johnbod Since the title of the infobox is "Esther, biblical character", we should not repeat that in the infobox by adding "according to the biblical book of ".

Infoboxes are specifically for that: to gather all the details about that person. That is true whether they are real or not. So we can not leave out the burial place.

Even taking into consideration that there are more than one alleged burial place, this is the most well-know, and it is sourced. If there are more, when can simply add them all, or even consider adding the word "alleged". Debresser (talk) 06:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

That is not the purpose of infoboxes at all. The MOS guideline begins: "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." You can and absolutely should leave out the burial place, which in fact is rarely included in the infoboxes of dead people, even when it is certain. You are just making all this up! Both burial places are sourced (the other arguably rather better) and it would be better imo to have two than one, but much the best and most appropriate to have nothing. The primary importance is to avoid the infobox being misleading, as it certainly has been. That is why the "Queen of Persia" needs to handled especially carefully. Johnbod (talk) 15:10, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I think I understand Debresser’s reasoning, that the applicability of “Queen of Persia” can be properly understood in the context of “biblical character”. However, in the case of an infobox, which is not only a feature of the article but is designed to be treated as a database entry by external users, the context doesn’t necessarily get preserved. IMO this is ample reason to eschew anything that’s at all ambiguous, nuanced, or context-dependent in infoboxes.—Odysseus1479 20:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

For compromise's sake (and only for that reason as far as I am concerned), and in view of Odysseus1479's argument that context might get lost, what about "Biblical Queen of Persia"? That should satisfy all. Debresser (talk) 16:51, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

And the graves? Johnbod (talk) 01:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

What about them? They stay. I don't think "biblical graves" is an option here. :) Debresser (talk) 09:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

There's only one of them in the box, which is part of the problem. But to be clear, none should be there, for the reasons given above. Johnbod (talk) 10:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

By the way, I see no real reason why burial places are not included in infoboxes of dead people, but since in Judaism burial places are often places of pilgrimage, that is good reason to make sure to have them, even if general articles don't.

If we have more than one, we could have both and add "alleged" after both of them. I personally know only of Hamadan. Debresser (talk) 11:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

WRT burial places, easy enough to say "Disputed", with a link to the spot in the page where it is discussed. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:40, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I thought of that option as well. But for that we need that a section of the article actually discuss several burial places. Debresser (talk) 19:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

This is why I will second Johnbod's suggestion that this Infobox should not contain any grave information. A piece of agreed disputed data has no place in an Infobox to begin with. I will also reiterate once again my original position that a Biblical character of dubious existence in real historical annals should not have an Infox at all to begin with. But barred that, disputed information has no place whatsoever in any Infobox, in my view. Thank you, warshy 19:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Warshy It is the nature of history to give rise to lack of information. That is called "historical incompleteness". If there are a few reliably sourced claimants for a field in an infobox, I see no reason why they shouldn't be mentioned. I also had a look at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Infoboxes and Help:Infobox, and your point of view is not part of that guideline and help page. Debresser (talk) 20:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Bottom line, I am fine with not mentioning the burial place in the infobox in this case. Debresser (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Tzniut

Can you clear up the descriptions of R' Weinberg and/or R' Bigman's positions following this edit? Ar2332 (talk) 22:07, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ar2332 I'd be happy to, but I don't understand what you mean. Debresser (talk) 23:45, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The article currently says "Yehiel Yaakov Weinberg Rabbi David Bigman of Yeshivat Ma'ale Gilboa..." - did you mean to delete the R Weinberg reference? Currently it's not a grammatical sentence. Ar2332 (talk) 08:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Resolved. Debresser (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Talkback

Ibadibam (talk) 03:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Do not restore poorly-sourced content.

This is a predatory journal, not a WP:RS. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't familiar with the concept. Thanks, and sorry for the trouble. Debresser (talk) 23:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

No worries. That's part of the pitfalls of predatory publishing. They're set up to look like legitimate peer-reviewed publications, but aren't really. Now that doesn't mean that " crime rates decreased in Iran during Ramadan, and that the decrease was statistically significant" isn't the case. It may well be. But that journal is not credible for that claim, and a better source is needed for Misplaced Pages to say this. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations

		100000 Edits
		Congratulations on reaching 100000 edits. You have achieved a milestone that only 542 editors have been able to accomplish. The Misplaced Pages Community thanks you for your continuing efforts. Keep up the good work!

-- Dolotta (talk) 13:04, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Debresser (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

מזל טוב!--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 22:21, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Please respect the RfC

Your repeated attempts to circumvent the consensus process at Jewish religious clothing are disruptive to the good-faith efforts by myself and our fellow editors to reach a solution. I would prefer we managed on our own to desist from edit warring but if you remove the image in question again I will seek administrator intervention to determine and enforce the preexisting consensus. Best, Ibadibam (talk) 00:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

My argument is solid. Nothing to do with the Rfc. Debresser (talk) 13:36, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Unconstructive question

How many times were you banned for undermining wikipedia by editing with an extreme bias and being unable to work with other editors? Does this edit count also include the other accounts you would use when this one was blocked all those times? Of 19 (talk) 17:41, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

For editing with bias, never. For being unable to work with other editors, never. For disagreeing with other editors, that has happened, and as often as not those blocks have been unjustified. Debresser (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

RE

RE this - I would avoid filing AE (on this specifically) as I don't quite see how you tie this into ARBPIA. The community also has a complex relationship with the F word. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

right. Based on my experience, he's baiting you. You will get blocked for filing a frivolous request. See here where he did the same to me,

, User_talk:Sir_Joseph/Archive_9#Arbitration_enforcement_block_extension Sir Joseph 12:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Icewhiz that, while the TP comments are some way from ideal, they would not be within the scope of ARBPIA. Filing at AE would therefore not get you far. AN or ANI would be the only places you could file this, but I don't recommend it; I don't think you will achieve anything. GoldenRing (talk) 13:34, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I think there is something really wrong with a system that lets editor badmouth other editors and bully them like that. Since this is something Nishidani does regularly, I think the community should outcast him, read: block him. Debresser (talk) 17:17, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

It was as a matter of a fact Sandstein who said he might do the right thing and do something about this in the future. Debresser (talk) 17:18, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

There was a RfC a while back on whether the f word was incivil. I do not remember how it closed - but it was close either way. You are unlikely to get an established editor sanctioned for f-word use by itself - particularly not in AN/ANI.Icewhiz (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, editors should never use the f word. nableezy - 17:26, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed this, and while, Debresser, I refrain from visiting your page as per your request, I believe, I would appreciate it if you avoid slinging wild WP:AGF violations in my direction ('badmouth'/'bully' etc., here, without even the courtesy of a notification. I do neither. Saying 'for fuck's sake' is an expression of exasperation, (at the general failure of most editors to research the topic and engage in close source scrutiny, as opposed to reverting people who do). Rather than target editors, which is personalizing matters, one does well on the relevant page to check sources - several are screwed up (i.e.like this copied and pasted from the Yemenite Jews page without controlling the sources and summarizing their content correctly). If the consensus is my work in this direction is not desired on the page, fine. But that does not absolve editors of the duty to ensure by close quality control that the material I am implicitly thought not to be an appropriate editor to fix, be fixed. Not fixing it, means the remaining editors cannot see what is obviously wrong with the text. So, drop it. I too dislike editing in hostile environments, but focus on the factual record, build articles and explain with some care for precision to editors who dislike my edits, why I think the sources I adduce are cogent. Nothing more, nothing less. Nishidani (talk) 17:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz In this case the editor, Nishidani, has been criticized for his battleground behavior, and using strong terms is part of that behavior. That is a fact, whether Nishidani himself views it that way or not, and it can be acted upon, as Sandstein has stated at WP:AE. Debresser (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@Nableezy I never said I am perfect. These terms are , however, not a regular part of my contribution to this community, and I certainly don't use them to intimidate or deter other editors from contributing. Debresser (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@Nishidani Indeed, your posts are not wanted on my talkpage, and please respect that. Moreover, I would have counted on you to understand the inappropriateness of posting in a section like this. Debresser (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

My 2 cents: (As one who apparently has "a pro-Palestinian POV from here till Ramallah" link) I would greatly appreciate if all of you refrained from using the f word, (or the c word, etc), Thanks in advance, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Anything thinking about writing such things should first be asking themselves, "Is this going help resolve this dispute or not?" GoldenRing (talk) 08:50, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I too agree with Huldra. Debresser (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Huldra You have to appreciate the humor in that phrase. :) Debresser (talk) 09:40, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Well, after he made a few more violations of various sorts, I reported him in the end: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Nishidani. Debresser (talk) 22:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Edit-warring

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

for edit-warring at Eliezer Berland, per Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Nomoskedasticity_on_Eliezer_Berland --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:31, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

I suppose I deserved that. Debresser (talk) 12:08, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Instead of a WP:BOOMERANG

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

for not respecting WP:BURDEN, repeatedly adding WP:SELFPUB promotional material, and for bringing to ANI a false claim that Nomoskedasticity was refusing to go to the talkpage when they had in fact done so over 24 hours before the that claim was made ... all at Eliezer Berland, per Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Nomoskedasticity_on_Eliezer_Berland --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the false claim you missed this admission that it was a mistake. And I repeat that the material is doubtlessly true, and therefore not overly promotional, even if indeed not well-sourced. Debresser (talk) 12:11, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction

The following sanction now applies to you:

You are banned from creating or making comments in WP:AE reports related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, except if you are the editor against whom enforcement is requested.

You have been sanctioned for the reasons provided in response to this arbitration enforcement request.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Sandstein 17:00, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Sandstein, what's the justification for the specific "commenting" portion of the ban? Sir Joseph 18:26, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Hatnotes

Hello Debresser. You recently reverted my removal of hatnotes at Herem (x3). Hatnotes are not required there because, per WP:NOTAMB, "It is usually preferable not to have a hatnote when the name of the article is not ambiguous". In my opinion the names of the articles are not ambiguous. If I didn't know what "Herem" meant I'd be at the disambiguation page Herem, not at one of the disambiguated articles. I'm sure the hatnotes were carefully thought through, but I disagree they're useful; I actually suggest they separate the reader from the text they're looking for. No big deal, though. Regards, Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:31, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

We (the editor who mainly edited those articles and I) felt that WP:SIMILAR applies. I still do. An editor could easily end up at one of the articles, while looking for one of the others. Debresser (talk) 19:53, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Honest advice

Debresser, I am being completely honest with you here, but you are just wrong on this. WP:AE is specifically for arbitration enforcement. It is not for seeking sanctions for activity in any part of Misplaced Pages not specifically covered by an arbitration decision. You cited WP:ARBPIA as the sanction or remedy to enforced. Now, first off, ARBPIA is a case, what you were looking for was WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions. But that misses the point here, WP:ARBPIA has a defined "area of conflict" where the sanctions apply. That area of conflict is "the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted." That has generally found to include all related discussions anywhere on Misplaced Pages (WP namespace, Template namespace, whatever). If an article is not related to the area of conflict then no misconduct there, even assuming there is misconduct there, can be brought to AE to enforce those sanctions. Your view that because you had conflict in that topic area that any other conflict you have is covered is not going to be accepted, by Sandstein or anybody else. And Sandstein does not have to continue to respond to your argument. He only has to justify his actions when asked, not repeat his justification. When you repeat the same argument he answered he can ignore it, and I suppose that is what he will do. Now, if you are at all interested in what I think you should do, then I do have some advice for you. You are not going to win an argument that the f word is verboten on Misplaced Pages. You are not going to win an argument that the use of the f word, when not explicitly directed to someone as in "f--- off" or "f--- you", is by default uncivil. Give up on that argument. Accept that people are going to use language you find offensive. Accept that people will find offense in the words that you use. You have a standard for what constitutes acceptable language on a talk page. Great, use that standard, abide by it. Expecting anybody else on the internet to abide by it however is not reasonable. As far as this sanction, if you want it lifted I would say the most obvious way to do so is wait 6 months, go to AE and tell them you understand the purpose of the board and what is and is not covered there. You are not going to get Sandstein to reverse it. You could of course appeal it right now, but, being honest with you, I dont think you have even a little bit of a chance of getting consensus to overturn it right now. nableezy - 21:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying. Thank you. Needless to say, I disagree with certain part of what you wrote, although I agree with others. I hold that Nishidani make three violations out of battleground attitude rooted in our disagreements in the IP-conflict field, and because he is, I think, an unpleasant person who does not respect other people. He should have been sanctioned for that. Ergo, I was right in reporting him there, and should not have been sanctioned. Debresser (talk) 20:52, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Debresser, you missed the point. You can only report to AE what happens in pages covered by arbitration decisions. Jewish religious clothing is not one of those pages. There are other places you can report misconduct there for, but AE is, without even a little bit of a question, not one of them. That is what you got sanctioned for, not understanding that AE is only for arbitration enforcement and not for any misconduct anywhere else on Misplaced Pages. It does not matter if the behavior you are complaining about is rooted in the IP-conflict field, it only matters, for the purpose of can it be reported to AE, where that behavior took place. If it did not take place on an ARBPIA article you cannot report it as an ARBPIA issue. nableezy - 22:00, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@Nableezy In fact, I think you are missing the point. WP:AE should address this behavior, regardless on which pages it occurred. According to your logic, an editor could "take revenge" on a page which is outside the scope of the IP-conflict for motives that are 100% related to it. That is unacceptable. Moreover, I don't think that is true. Debresser (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Nab is correct. There have been many times when the admins at AE have declined to look at something not covered by arbcom sanctions. Behavior on other pages can go to some other board, like WP:ANI. Zero 02:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Zero You usually show better logic. My point is that this is covered by ARBPIA, IMHO. And if it weren't, it should be. Debresser (talk) 02:18, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

In practice, ARBPIA covers what the admins at AE hold it to cover. If you disagree with them, your only recourse is ARCA. My prediction is that a case there would not succeed. Zero 14:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Zero Here we agree. It galls me however, that Sandstein closed the report within 24 hours, not even waiting to see if perhaps other editors would agree with my argument. And at least he should have understood that the fact that he personally disagrees with me, does not justify meeting out a sanction to me without first seeing if perhaps the community agrees with me. Debresser (talk) 14:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

No Debresser, that is not my logic. My logic is if there is misconduct anywhere besides pages specifically covered by an arbitration decision then you can seek redress at WP:ANI. WP:AE cannot take action for any act that occurs outside of pages that are specifically covered by arbitration. Whatever tho, I tried. nableezy - 14:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Again, as I see it, the behavioral issue should be covered by WP:AE on any page. In any case, I think the position of Sandstein,the two of you, and likely many others with you, is clear to me. I still hold that this is something that should have been discussed at WP:AE and is no reason to sanction me from posting there. By the way, if not your "kind" reminder, Sandstein wouldn't have sanctioned me, so I am not so sure I am altogether happy with you playing the nice guy here. Debresser (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

How you see it is not how it is. Im not playing nice guy, Im trying, or was trying, to help you understand the problem here. And get you to not waste your time asking Sandstein to reconsider, I dont think Ive ever seen that happen without a consensus pretty much already against him. If youd asked me if you should file that report I would have told you no, and that this exact sanction would happen. nableezy - 21:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion on WP:DR

User:Debresser, There is a discussion here on WP:DR to which you have been named as an involved person. Please check it out.Davidbena (talk) 04:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 11:54, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

They closed the case, because of an acting AN. Sorry about that.Davidbena (talk) 12:31, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I noticed that when I went there. Had a look at the WP:AN case as well. Didn't like what I saw, but don't think there is much I can do about it. Debresser (talk) 12:42, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

David P Mindell, The Evolving World

Re the Judaism article: David Mindell, whose book The Evolving World, is being used as a source on very early Jewish history, is an evolutionary biologist. His credentials as a student of ancient history might be a bit questionable. Personally I think the idea that Jewish history begins in 500 BCE is ridiculous.PiCo (talk) 11:55, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

So do I. Nor, as usual, one can argue as to the degree of distinctiveness that justifies the name of Judaism as a religion distinct from other Israelite religions. Even though the main tenets may have been there a millennium earlier, based on once POV as a historian or person one can always find a criteria that wasn't met till later, and decide that that is the criteria which justifies the distinction. Debresser (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

You could definitely tag that statement with {{Better source}} or perhaps even {{Dubious}}. Debresser (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Notice

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Tareksa: NOTHERE?. Jayjg 12:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I see this editor has been indef blocked already. Debresser (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Rabbinic Judaism

Hey, I just went with what was in the Lead section. The existing short description is kind of long, could you shorten it a little? Editor2020 (talk) 21:57, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I understood how you made the short description. My problem with the lead is that it is unsourced and dubious. Debresser (talk) 17:18, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

How about we delete that (unsourced) first line then? Editor2020 (talk) 20:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it is useful to say right from the start that Rabbinic Judaism has been mainstream Judaism for a long time. The fact hat we don't have a source that tells us for how long, doesn't mean that we should delete that important fact. I hope that the tags will prod somebody a more precise statement.

I personally think that Rabbinic Judaism has been mainstream since the destruction of the second temple changed the Jewish demography, and if I see it as a continuation of Pharisaic Judaism even since before that. Debresser (talk) 23:50, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Bar Kokhba Revolt

I was questioning indigenous, not genocide. Do you feel that that applies? Editor2020 (talk) 19:59, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I see. Well, the Jews were at the time indigenous to the Judea (Roman province), where they had lives for about a millennium, so yeah. Debresser (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. Editor2020 (talk) 00:22, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Notice

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is King of troy and WP:SEEALSO. Jayjg 14:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Good idea. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 16:41, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I put this on Favonian's talk page - copy to you.

Greetings. I am RPSM. The following is from article "Passover" third paragraph second sentence.

In Judaism, a day commences at dusk and lasts until the following dusk, thus the first day of Passover begins after dusk of the 14th of Nisan and ends at dusk of the 15th day of the month of Nisan. I don't think that's quite right. If it's a question of havdallah, it is nightfall, surely.

The first day of Passover does not begin after dusk. It begins at sunset, and observance is set 18 minutes before sunset (40 minutes before sunset in Jerusalem) - from googling.

Are you the right person to contact about this? RPSM (talk) 16:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

RPSM (talk) 16:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I am, and I think you're right. Debresser (talk) 20:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Pro-Gay themed Talmudic sages?

Hi Debresser, please see: Talk:Timeline of LGBT Jewish history#Allegations that Torah true classical scholars supported and implied pro gay themes and memes is ludicrous. What do you say? IZAK (talk) 23:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Response to COI allegation

--Wikiemirati (talk) 23:15, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

It was an inquiry rather than an allegation. :)

Thanks for the Talkback template, but no need, I always follow up on my posts in article or user talkpages. Debresser (talk) 23:22, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

CfD Conversos etc

Please see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 July 7#Category:New Christians (conversos). Thanks, IZAK (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Categorization question

Hi, please see the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 July 7#Category:New Christians (conversos) that is trying to determine how best to classify Conversos/Marranos/Anusim. New Christians or Crypto-Jews or both. Your WP:EXPERT input would help the discussion. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 22:56, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Editing without consensus

Hi, you made an edit before we established consensus on the Jewish Holidays article. So I don't see why I couldn't do the same. But I'm happy to to continue discussion on the talk page. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 01:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, you are the Tu quoque type of guy. :(

Did you read the editnotice on top of this page when you posted: "If I posted on your talkpage, that means I am watching it. To keep discussions centralized, I propose you post there." Debresser (talk) 08:11, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Beitar Illit

Thats a 1RR violation, a NPOV violation, and a generally disruptive edit. You should self-revert before I put the diffs together. nableezy - 14:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Take back one bit of that. Its just a disruptive edit, not a 1RR violation. nableezy - 15:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It is not even disruptive, as I opened an Rfc on the talkpage. Debresser (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Now, calling a perfectly logical edit like the one you reverted here "nonsense" that is a problem. Debresser (talk) 17:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Ill be reverting these nonsense edits soon. You dont get to force through your repeatedly rejected POV and demand that be the basis of any discussion. nableezy - 17:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

My edit is not based in POV, nor has my POV ever been rejected, since I never edit out of POV. Debresser (talk) 22:10, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Question about the Exodus

I have been thinking about the Exodus a lot lately, as you can tell by my editing
Based on your edits on the talk page, it seems like you are Jewish and believe in the Exodus.
Maybe you can share your thoughts on my analysis?
I recently found out that the Exodus is not historically real, ie like creationism or the ark. I feel like most Jewish people are not aware of this, however for those who do know-- It seems unethical to accuse Egypt of enslaving millions of Israelites, when historically we know that they did not enslave any Israelites. And the same goes for saying Jewish ancestors were slaves when we know they were not.
For example: hypothetically if Italians told everyone that 4,000 years ago Israel committed a holocaust against millions of Italian people. Historians said it was false. Italians said they had faith in it and would continue telling everyone. This would be unethical. The untrue accusation against Israel, the appropriation of the Holocaust.

I know some Jewish people say that the Exodus is a story to teach about oppression and finding ones home or place in the world (ie Israel), but clearly this can be done without the unethical side effects. For example with the actual historical event of the Holocaust. Jewish people overcame oppression and formed Israel. Its the same basic story but completely real.
What do you think about my thoughts on this? and about the Exodus?
Thanks Fajkfnjsak (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

As a religious Jew, I believe that it took place as described in the Bible. I am waiting for archeology to dig up some proof that support the Bible, since for reasons that are unclear to me, the Bible is not considered a historical document by academics.

I have no issue with any Egyptian, if that is what worries you. Debresser (talk) 16:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Do you have any thoughts on my analysis of the ethics? Fajkfnjsak (talk) 04:14, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Not really. As I said, I have no problems with any Egyptian because of this, so I suppose the ethics is fine. Debresser (talk) 11:26, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

I would guess that most Egyptians are as unaware of the historical evidence/consensus as most Jewish people. But at any rate, I'm more interested in the ethics from a philosophy standpoint than whether people are upset. Do you have any thoughts about the philosophy of the ethics? Thanks Fajkfnjsak (talk) 13:58, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) As someone who looks at Exodus from a different perspective - some notes... To begin with, today's Egyptians probably have little to do with the Egyptians of yore (different language, culture, religion, etc.). As a second note there was some slavery (as well as migrant workers) from Canaan in Egypt in the period (and note - Proto-Sinaitic script - the beginnings of the Canaanite writing (and the English Alphabet...) - took place at such a junction). More significantly - Egypt ruled over Canaan during the period. The Exodus narrative is also rooted in the Hebrew god coming from the south (probably with accompanying people - e.g. perhaps the priestly tribe - as well... Note that priests in Exodus have Egyptian names, while Israelites have Hebrew names). Is the story in Exodus true? Currently the scholarly consensus is that what happened differed (e.g. most Israelites developed in-situ in the Canaanite highlands - though there definitely was some migration (e.g. the writing system traveled up from down south))... However many elements of the narrative in Exodus have historical roots - e.g. it would appear the Egyptians lorded over the Canaanites in Canaan itself... And on a philosophical note - do you take the Iliad as gospel truth? The journey, the way the narrative is told and taught - the lessons from the narrative - are more important than if god created the world in seven days or if the Staff of Moses was an element in all the miracles attested to it.Icewhiz (talk) 14:50, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing Ichewiz

Remember, I am talking about the philosophical ethics, not of who is mad. It is unethical to make false claims of enslaving Jewish people against ancient Egyptians or living Egyptians. In addition, people connect with, care about their ancestors and do not want false accusations made against them.

Currently the scholarly consensus is that the Exodus has no historical basis. The Israelites were not enslaved in ancient Egypt, and they never even lived there. They came from Canaan as you pointed out. As far as "historcial roots", imagine the hypothetical Italians telling people that Israel committed a holocaust against them (and most people believed them), claiming that there were "historical roots" because holocausts have happened somewhere, and that there were conflicts where the Israelites treated Italians poorly. And that the lessons from the story are more important anyways, therefore it is ethical. What do you think of the this justification, ethically?

I agree with you about the importance of lessons being greater than the historicity. But I think this only applies to stories about supernatural staffs, creationism, etc, which do not make unethical claims. This is the difference from the staff and creationism vs Exodus and Israel's Holocaust against the Italians.

This is why I make my proposal of teaching the same lessons about overcoming oppression and returning to ones homeland, Israel, by telling about the real Holocaust in Germany against the Jewish people, and not the Exodus mythology. This would retain those lessons and not make unethical claims that we know are not historically true.

What do you think of this proposal and the philosophical ethics of telling the same lessons with the historically false Exodus vs the historically real Holocaust? Fajkfnjsak (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Woohoo

Hey, Debresser. Just stopping by to wish you a Happy Birthday from the Misplaced Pages Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Mjs1991 (talk) 10:20, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Much appreciated. Debresser (talk) 16:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Request for explanation

Hi Debresser, I saw that you left a comment on my page telling me to be aware that edit summaries must be accurate. Please let me know what exactly you found to be inaccurate about my edit summary. Shoelaces1 (talk) 01:34, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Done. By the way, I always follow talkpages I post on, so you could have posted this request on your talkpage, which would have had the additional benefit of keeping the discussion in one place. Debresser (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Jewish user templates

Category:Jewish user templates has been nominated for renaming to Category:Jews and Judaism user templates. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. —⁠andrybak (talk) 09:58, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Done. And support. Debresser (talk) 14:52, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Wolfdog

I was not aware my template was being used by other users. How do I check something like that? Wolfdog (talk) 12:31, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@Wolfdog You can press "What links here" on the left side panel. Where it says "transclusion" that means they use the template. Debresser (talk) 22:17, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

You know perfectly well that government spokespeople are not reliable sources for the writings of that country's enemies. Why do you persist in this disruption? Zero 18:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

First of all be careful whom you call "disruptive". Secondly, this was not a government spokesperson but an official report. Debresser (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

There is no difference between an official report and the words of a government spokesperson in their official capacity. Both are highly unreliable sources regarding that country's enemies. Zero 18:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Heh, I guess next you will quote Abba Eban's words to the UN in 1957, "stating" that all of the Palestinian refugees were as a result of Arab encouragement for them to leave? (see Maximos_V_Hakim#1948_Nakba_controversy). Try using Abba Eban's words to the UN as undisputed WP:RS...Huldra (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Still, this source is very specific as to who its source is. And it is not Israeli. Debresser (talk) 00:34, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

No it is an Israeli source making a claim that could be checked but hasn't been as far as we know. Zero 10:48, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

As I have said on the talkpage as well, I do understand that sometimes official statements are not reliable, but to state the opposite, that any official statement is not reliable, I think you made a mistake. Debresser (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

I get it now. Debresser decides which official statements are reliable. Why didn't you just say that? Those of us trying to define objective criteria have been approaching it all wrong. Zero 19:09, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

First of all, thank you! I am happy you finally started seeing things my way. I kindly ask you to use User:Debresser/Testcases to run all sources by me before using them.

Secondly, I don't really understand what you are referring to. Debresser (talk) 15:32, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Bituah Leumi

This appears to be what is called in other places social security, or national insurance, not a conventional insurance system. Am I wrong? Rathfelder (talk) 07:08, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Rathfelder, Debresser can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it would be a mixture of many systems. So if you take the US system, it would be the Social Security system and Medicaid system together. For the UK, I think it would be the NHS plus other systems, since it's not just health. Also, I'm not too keen on the spelling of Bituah. Sir Joseph 13:48, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

It includes basic health insurance, welfare and other social allowances.

What would you like better, Bituach, Bitu'ah? Debresser (talk) 14:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Debresser, I know Misplaced Pages hates the "ch" but I would prefer that, but there needs to be something with the "h" even that stupid dot under the "h" or the stupid modern "kh" would be better, but we do need to differentiate from the plain "ah" sound which it's not. Since it's a small article which doesn't get much traction, I do think we can get away with a "ch" which is my preference. Sir Joseph 14:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

So it isn't well categorised as insurance. Can anyone point me to useful sources, in English? Rathfelder (talk) 15:23, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Rathfelder, here's some useful information on Bituach Leumi: https://www.nbn.org.il/aliyahpedia/government-services/health-care-national-insurance/bituach-leumi-2/ Sir Joseph 16:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

You dont like the source Sir Joseph suggests? I dont think the point is the literal translation. The point is to help readers understand the organisation. National Insurance Institute of Israel is the wording used on the official website. Rathfelder (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Here's the about page of Bituach Leumi where they spell out a bit more of their services. I think Social Security is about right. Sir Joseph 00:18, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

"died" vs. "murdered in the Holocaust"

Hi there, in general, I think the phrase "died in the Holocaust" is worse and less descriptive than "murdered in the Holocaust". The Holocaust, as a whole, was a program of systematic, state-sponsored mass-murder. This naturally encompasses the most direct methods of kiling (gas chambers, bullets, hangings), as well as extermination through labour, which also falls within the definition of murder. For the Nazis, death was an obvious, foreseeable, and welcomed consequence of cramming humans into horrifically filthy and unimaginably overcrowded conditions and not providing inmates with adequate nutrition, clothing, or medical care. Just like saying "John locked Bob in his basement with utter disregard to Bob's welfare, and Bob died of malnutrition", any prosecutor could reasonably charge John with murder. The Holocaust was mass-murder and the people who were killed through the totality of the Nazis' genocidal machinations are murder victims. For this reason, I avoid the phrase "died in the Holocaust".-Ich (talk) 09:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

For most of the Jews who died in the Holocaust it would be correct to say that they were murdered, either because it was clear murder or because it was indirect murder as you correctly explain. Still, some died of other causes, like soldiers of the Jewish Brigade, or Jewish victims of famine. Debresser (talk) 22:43, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

"Died" is an event, "murder" is a legal conclusion (e.g. one dies by being murdered). Using legal terminology without referencing the court and ruling is not a statement of fact, therefore "died" is correct. While you likely could include a count of murdered individuals as there are court rulings to reference, that would likely be a different number than all who died. Lexlex (talk) 08:57, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I think that after the Neurenberg trials, we may safely use "murder" regarding what Nazis did to Jews and others. Debresser (talk) 15:59, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Exactly: cite the trial conclusions as the reference. Having such a well-known legal reference that directly addresses the point of a discussion is a rare thing - why not use it? Lexlex (talk) 16:29, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

See my opinion above, that not all Jews who died in the Holocaust were murdered. Debresser (talk) 21:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree that not all Jews who perished during WW2 were murdered, but when the sentence specifically uses the phrase "murdered in the Holocaust", I think "murder" is correct. Even the Jewish members of, say, the Warsaw Uprising could in a larger sense be viewed as having acted in self-defense, fighting back against their own eventual murder.-Ich (talk) 19:59, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Date format

Concerning your objection to not use the date format "xth of". I will try to use the format Month day(, Year), however https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:MOS states: "The English Misplaced Pages prefers no national variety of English over any other.". --Salamandra85 (talk) 11:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

It is not a matter of WP:ENGVAR, rather of MOS:DATESNO. Debresser (talk) 13:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Neutral notice

This is a neutral notice to all registered editors who have contributed to Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Film over the past year (Sept. 15, 2018-present) that a Request for Comment has been posted here. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:01, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

TP violation

Are you sure these ,,, aren't violations of your topic ban?

You are banned from creating or making comments in WP:AE reports related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, except if you are the editor against whom enforcement is requested

I believe you are breaking your ban and you should withdraw your remarks before it is going to be noticed.GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:05, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

That ban is specifically on WP:AE, while this discussion is taking pace on WP:ANI. This is so obvious, that I don't understand why you are even writing me about this. Debresser (talk) 12:13, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I see that Black Kite also noticed this distinction. Which makes it even stranger to me that you should pressure me here about this issue. Debresser (talk) 12:17, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

no pressure...actually I just realized that ban applies only for WP:AE, so you are perfectly fine commenting there. Ignore my previous message.GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Sure. No problems. Debresser (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing

Please take a minute to look at the nature of the content that is removed from an article before blindly reverting another user as you did here . Saying that an article is 4k characters shorter is not an argument. Moreover, try to avoid putting words in other people's mouths, such as stating that I had made the "unexplained claim that this is not connected to the subject of the article". I never said such a thing. I said that the content in question wasn't connected to the ethnic cleansing of Germans from Central Europe, which it isn't. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The fact that this was over 4,000 characters is an indication that this is a major edit (read: major removal), and as such needs a better explanation than a minor edit. This is surely nothing new to you.

I agree that that information was not about Germans, but why not simply create a new subsection? Why remove it altogether? Debresser (talk) 17:41, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Apologies

for intruding on your page, but I require some input I think only you could provide (it has nothing to do with wiki). I heard from an old man that in reciting the incipit of Genesis, 'elohim' must be pronounced 'elokim' out of respect for the name of God. This defies everything I know and have heard. Do you know of any Jewish community where this kind of phonetic alteration is practiced? or is it just an individual's idiosyncracy Sorry for the bother. Nishidani (talk) 08:49, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

You are welcome here. When reading the Torah "Elohim" is pronounced "Elohim". When quoting the Torah in a lecture e.g. it is common to use "Elokim" instead, so as not to use God's name in vain. Even though this would not be truly in vain, as it is part of a lecture, still, many are careful about this. Others are not, as indeed it is not in vain. I hope this answered your question. Debresser (talk) 16:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks indeed, Dovid. Much appreciated. I just wondered whether it was specific to Ashkenazi usage or a general substitution practiced by all communities. The important thing is that the old man reciting it thus was using lecture style, not Torah reading style. Regards Nishidani (talk) 17:35, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

It is more common for Ashkenazi rabbis to be careful about this than for Sefardi rabbis, yes. Debresser (talk) 09:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

October 2019

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

You're currently at 3 reverts. Just FYI.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 16:02, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Looks like you're now over the 3RR limit. It would behoove to stop gatekeeping and using semantic stop signs. See WP:CCC The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 16:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I see 2 reverts on October 13, and 2 reverts on October 14, and I kept Shabbat in between, which is an over 24 hour observance. So how can this be a 3rr violation? Debresser (talk) 16:09, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

FYI, 27 hours can easily be seen as gaming 3RR, so I would be wary about that. El_C 16:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

24 hours should be 24 hours. I understand 24 hours and 5 minutes is gaming the system, but 25-26 hours should be the limit. In any case, this is a known edit warrior, who is fighting against consensus to keep an edit he made recently, so it is plain and simple disruptive editing. Feel free to block him for 24 hours for that. Debresser (talk) 16:24, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what the consensus is and am not about to block anyone on the basis of it being disputed alone (!). As for your view advancing a strict interpretation of 3RR's 24 hours, I just wanted you to know that, regardless of what you think it should be, that view is not generally shared by admins, myself included. El_C 16:31, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

User:El_C Irrespective of that, it is still quite clear that he is edit warring (having reverted at least 5 times in the past 2 days, and 3 times today). In addition to violating a host of other rules, notably WP:AGF, WP:Personal attacks, WP: Bully, and ignoring WP:CCC in favor of enforcing a "consensus" that is now at least 2 years old. For instance, I highly doubt leaving messages like this on another person's talk page is in any way acceptable. The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 16:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Debresser, indeed, that is not a manner in which to conduct oneself. You need to stop referring to the editor and focus on the edit, instead. El_C 17:01, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I know that most admins will freely add as many hours to 24 as they see fit. I have never in my life had respect for people who apply the rules as they like. In any case, since I was over 24 hours out of editing because of my religious adherence to the Jewish Shabbat, it should be clear that I was not gaming the system. Debresser (talk) 09:50, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I have addressed the issue on the category talkpage. Which does not mean that the editor is not the problem here. The editor is very much part of the problem here. If editors weren't ever part of the problem, we wouldn't have WP:ANI. So please stop lecturing me. Debresser (talk) 09:50, 15 October 2019 (UTC)