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Pittsburgh Unassessed

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I'm deleting the state takeover bit until we have further chance to discuss it. Of the PPS high schools, Allderdice is not one of the one's at all in danger of "state takeover," which itself is a misrepresentation of NCLB. 140.247.240.85 01:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on the pages for Pittsburgh Public Schools. I'd like to standardize on using Infobox_School. Here's what it would look like for Alderdice: Paschmitts 12:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

As I've seen no comments on this, I'll install it on 1 Nov. — Paschmitts 03:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Drug Culture of the 1970s Section

I'm not sure that this section is relevant to Taylor Allerdice as it is now. Also, as the only copy of the Forward I can find is from February 18, 2005, there is no way to verify the references. I would recommend removing this section. – Paschmitts 18:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This is an important aspect of the history of the school and how it's come to be the way it is, just like its winning a Blue Ribbon award from the U.S. Department of Education in 1996 and being ranked among Newsweek's top high schools in 2005. The developing everyday practices of students and administration, which are barely visible via its national accolades, show how it fits into the sociocultural history of its neighborhood, city, state, and country. All my citations were taken from existing hard copies of the Foreword. Many texts cited as sources in articles of all kinds are not available in digital copies on the web, so that's an unusual standard to apply here. The article doesn't even cite its sources for its Blue Ribbon award or its Newsweek ranking, or even its notable alumni or its student body's current statistics--should this information be removed? On the other hand, my citations are double-checked, accurate, and verifiable; perhaps the school itself maintains a compendium of all volumes of its newspaper in its library if someone who doesn't possess these sources wishes to verify my citations' accuracy. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 08:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying this information is untrue, but here are the problems with the section:

1. It is diproportionately large for discussion of scattered mentions of drugs in a couple high school paper classifieds pages published 30 years ago. I'm not sure how well this helps the reader understand the subject. There are many, many other subjects that should be expanded for the section to be nearly as large as it is.

I agree. This encyclopedic entry for an 80-year-old institution is anemic, and so designates itself a stub. Its disproportionality reflects its youth, but ensuring the quality of its developments will eventually result in a harmonious and authentically encyclopedic entry. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 19:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be expanded. Surely our efforts are better spent discussing more representative sections of the history than a brief stint among student newspaper writers of sneaking references into print. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 03:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Claims like this really need to be verified, and not only is the school paper an unreliable sources, I highly doubt it will cover all of the claims in the section. Additionally, how is anyone to check these sources?

I am considering removing this section rather soon and only re-adding it once the papers can be examined by another editor. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 12:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that in light of the sensitivity this material has touched on participating editors that it is preferable to make the sources more easily accessible. I have scanned my hard copies of the Foreword and put them online, as they are public domain. Please let me know if the quality of any of the scans is lacking, and I can redo them. I'd eventually like to scan and put all volumes online, but time restricts me to doing just the ones I cite from. Thanks are owed to the University of California, Berkeley for providing the resources to serve these files. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 19:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do you believe this material to be in the public domain? The individual writers own the copyrights on their writing until 70 years after their deaths.--Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree that the Foreword is an unreliable source. Please examine it for yourself and also my response to Steve block below. What's more, such a quality journalistic effort provides a rare opportunity to provide verifiability for what Steve block designates "common knowledge." It will also be difficult to document alumni, as the school is unlikely to violate its students' privacy. But being listed in the staff of the school newspaper, having a byline in it, or being the subject of an article goes far toward justifying that the named person is an alumnus. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 19:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. High school student newspapers are not considered reliable because they are not expected to have a rigorous screening process.--Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I read the page you refer to before editing this page, and I have reviewed it again. It says nothing about high school newspapers per se, or about screening processes. The source should be examined for its quality, but I beg of you, since the section I've added has engendered such a strong reaction in you, please allow the community to mull over this issue thoughtfully. I meticulously answered all the objections raised after the first removal, but you didn't consider that, and acted rashly by removing it a second time, without due consideration or basis.

Removal

I've removed it since it is not in keeping with our neutral point of view policy. Specifically it gives undue weight to source and a topic. The school newspaper is not the best source to use when building such a section, it can be considered partisan, and it isn't widely accessible. The main thrust of the section is also that "drug culture and humor played a prominent and benign role in school life", something true of all schools in all times, and so not particularly relevant to this article or this era. Steve block Talk 13:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You declined to participate in the above debate, and on that count alone your unilateral removal was unconscionably rash and merits reversal. But to address your other observations:

1. The claim that this section gives undue weight isn't valid. The article plainly declares itself a stub--for now, any new information receives undue weight. Before I edited it, half the article was devoted to an entirely undocumented section of trivia, the Notable Alumni, which still remains. I have added two more notable alumni, documenting them using quality sources. This large and important school, furthermore, has eighty years of history. The article is nowhere near finished and it is unreasonable to stunt it just because its early growth will not necessarily reflect your preferences regarding proportion. I would like to see the article become more than a stub.
2. After re-reviewing it, WP's undue weight policy objects to many things, but not specifically to any quality source per se. It's more about the way that source and other sources are used.
3. Without reviewing it, you prejudge this school's newspaper as "partisan" and "not the best source." You provide no basis and don't explain what you mean by "partisan." On the contrary, the Foreword met professional journalistic standards and provided a quality training ground for aspiring professionals, just like Taylor Allderdice as a whole. The paper reported a standard mix of national political news, social and political issues of the surrounding community and Pittsburgh, and entertainment and sports events. In fact, the News Editor of several of the issues I cite from, Mr. Aaron Zitner, has had a long career as a journalist, and is now an editor at the Los Angeles Times's National Bureau. By the way, I emailed Mr. Zitner regarding this WP article and his reply to me indicates his intention to participate. In any case, the volume number of 104 in 1980 indicates fifty-two school years of publication, which dates the newspaper's establishment to the year of the school's founding. The paper's motto, "Serving Allderdice High School and the community," indicates no intention to be "partisan" and neither does its practices or content.
4. Everything in the paper was included with close administration oversight and approval, and an administration advisor is always listed as a member of the staff. The paper regularly ran large ads from respected institutions as diverse as the University of Pittsburgh, Penn State University, the United States Marine Corps, and Allegheny Reproductive Health Center's abortion service.
5. You say that the section's main thrust is "that 'drug culture and humor played a prominent and benign role in school life'." I agree. And you go on to say this thrust is "something true of all schools in all times," yet you conclude that this makes the thrust "not particularly relevant to this article or this era." On the contrary, WP policy states "Do not remove statements that you believe to be both true and common knowledge, simply because they aren't sourced." This clearly indicates the appropriateness of true and common knowledge. If you grant that this knowledge is true and common, then the way that such a universal works out specifically at this institution is worthy of encyclopedic collection. Your observation of universality (with which not all editors agree) argues for the material's inclusion, not its unilateral removal, or the removal of the rare opportunity to document it.

And so I have restored the material. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 19:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Steve block's removal was appropriate. It doesn't matter whether he participated in the discussion; he is an admin who saw two editors' raising concerns about the material, and he voiced his by making the move to remove the material. I have again removed the material. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

In the 80-year history of this school, the brief mentions of drug use in the supercool student newspaper are a blip and do not help a reader understand the subject of the article. If you want to expand the article, expand on the organizational, structural, academic and sports histories before adding that some dudes liked to light up doobies in the 2nd floor men's restroom. The Foreward undoubtedly did not maintain professional standards. The student newspaper, whether its staff grew up to became superfamous journalists, was still staffed by a bunch of denim-jacketed teenagers. We, the other Misplaced Pages editors, were not there and so cannot take your word on the editing processes at the paper. The ads that a paper runs do not have anything whatsoever to do with its quality, even if the ads are for reputable abortion clinics.--Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from the kind of incivil sarcasm you use here. Steve block expressed opinions about the source without being able to review it, so I ensured that the source is now available for review. Examination of the source will reveal that it is not what guess you imply by "supercool." Examination of the source will reveal whether or not it maintained professional standards, so I don't understand your basis for "undoubtedly".

The subject of the article is Taylor Allderdice High School, and my documentation of its practices helps the reader understand how it fit into the world during that era, when attitudes toward drug culture differed from the times before and after it. Why wouldn't the history of various practices the school has sustained in different eras be relevant? What is the basis for limiting the article to organization, structure, and sports histories? Isn't the production of the school newspaper also an aspect of its academics?

We can request comment from outside editors for this situation, but I am certain you will find that they will agree that the section is unduly large. All of your sources are from a student paper. At the very least, find a reputable source upon which to hang the other references. Unfortunately, this only addresses the reliable sources problem and not the undue weight issue. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

ChrisGriswold makes no effort to examine the sources, which are now readily available. Instead, he engages in insult--"denim-jacketed" people and reporters who "sneak" material. The fact is that this is a quality source that forms a basis for a subject of substantial importance, which only examination of it will reveal, even if it may not fit your preconceived notion of what a high school newspaper is. Please take time away from this article until you can free yourself of the prejudicial views you plainly express. The section I add isn't even very large, and is only slightly longer than the section of undocumented trivia; it will fit nicely into a completed article. I see no reason for it to be removed from the article, and no amount of aggressive insult, sarcasm, and prejudice can form a basis for its removal. If the article's facts touch upon your personal sensitivities, please refrain from sanitization and take time away from the article. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 05:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Somehow I missed this chunk of text. I did examine the scans you provided, but they are very difficult to read. Additionally, I am not sure that saying someone wears a denim jacket is an insult so much as a description. The only prejudice I have is against high school student reporters. It's simple: I question their integrity and reliability. They're high school students; if they want to report on the price of milk, I'd probably believe it, but I'm going to have a hard time taking a 15-year-old's editorials seriously, much less the classifieds section. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 15:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The important thing that's failing to be considered by the other editors: my plainly stated intention is to document that "During the 70s, drug culture and humor played a prominent and benign role in school life." "Prominent" may be common, but "benign" may surprise some people. The point is that the very fact that the administration allowed the paper to publish the kind of content I cite is itself evidence of that admnistration's benign attitude toward the students' drug culture. Even if you impeach the quality of the source, the administration's approving such an impeachable source documents its benign attitude. That a quality source publishes this material makes the point even more emphatically, but even if you consider the source less than quality, it still documents the attested fact. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 08:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the source is impeachable. We do not know how rigoursly the school actually looked at material before it made it in. Additionally, your scans are horribly unreadable, and I can't even attempt to verify anything with them. You are making statements that are not even sourced in the material, drawing your own clonclusions. Please read WP:OR. It may explain why I am again removing this section. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 09:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Notable Alumni References

I'm working over the list of Notable Alumni and adding references where I can find them.
I currently cannot find a reference for Vicky (or Vicki) Funari, the director, as every having lived in Pittsburgh, or gone to Allderdice. In fact, the scan of Foreword referenced looks more, to my eyes, to name the member of the Advertising Staff as VICKY FUNART.
Thanx for any help. – Paschmitts 01:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much for doing this. It's really great; the list looks impressive, much better than similar lists in many, many articles. We may want to remove Vicki. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 06:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanx. It's actually kind of fun trying to track down references. It gets a little frustrating when many of the references for a person come from Misplaced Pages. Anyway, I'll leave Vicky in a little longer and see if I can find anything more for her. – Paschmitts 02:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've been through the entire list of Notable Alumi looking for references. Jeff Goldblum got removed because his biography on his web site says he went to West Mifflin North High School. I was also unable to find references for Vicky Funari or Aaron Zitner as having gone to Allderdice. If no references are found by Nov. 30, I will remove them from the list. – Paschmitts 20:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Good work/ --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 03:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

AMA for 0-0-0-Destruct-0 and drug culture section of Article

Hey guys.

I'm an AMA who 0-0-0-Destruct-0 has asked to have a look at this information and see if I can't get some people chatting a little more inclusively about the inclusion of this information. Having read all of the details of the info on the article history and it's talk page I'd first like to talk a bit about the verifiability of this section and later it's weight (these seem like the two main problems people had with this section, if there are more let me know but the main concern of 0-0-0-Destruct-0 was that people were reluctant to discuss so it's unclear). A couple of comments that probably need addressing;

• I'm not sure that this section is relevant to Taylor Allerdice as it is now. User:Paschmitts

Surely history rarely is? Particularly weird history like this, and particularly history that the school probably doesn't want detailed now.

• Claims like this really need to be verified, and not only is the school paper an unreliable sources, I highly doubt it will cover all of the claims in the section. User:Chris_Griswold

If it doesn't cover all of it then yes, it should be removed to the extent it's not covered, but overall school newspapers are an OK source for this. The Misplaced Pages guidelines on verifiability go through this under the section of Self-published and dubious sources in articles about the author(s); If we consider the school as an author writing about itself here, and examine the subparts of

• it is relevant to their notability; - I think it probably is, any culture of a school is notable if the school itself is. It would be suitable for a school were it particularly involved in protests during the Vietnam War, it would be suitable were it to set a particular fashion trend, surely this is the same sort of thing?
• it is not contentious; - Well nobody has disagreed that this culture existed. That would define contentious right?
• it is not unduly self-serving; - No not at all, in fact this policy designed to eliminate vanity articles could not be less appropriate.
• it does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject; - And this one is designed to stop information that isn't suitable for one article as perjorative, being put in another to avoid scrutiny.
• there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it. - It's perfectly reasonable to assume a school publishes it's own newspaper.

I really do think this information as reported by a school newspaper as it's source is ok, as I would feel about it publishing local sports results, accademic results or improvements to the school but not local non-school related events. What are your thoughts?

•Elomis• 22:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

(multiple edit conflicts)Thanks for helping out, Elomis. I do take your point on the school newspaper. I do still feel that the section is unduly heavy in the article. It makes up at least a third of the article in its entirety. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Steve block's view

• Basically, you are giving the information undue weight, and no, a self published school newspaper would not in this sense be a reliable source. The culture of a school in the the 1970s may or may not be notable, but that notability is not conferred because the school may or may not be notable. You are right it would be suitable if it started a major trend, but to show that you would require actual press coverage. Whether people agree or disagree on if this culture existed is an irrelevant point. On wikipedia all we care for is that information conforms with our policies.
• Tackling the statement that we can take the newsletter as the school being the author, no we can't, that's not my understanding of how a school newsletter such as this works. This is a magazine produced by the student body for the student body, and likely has a low editorial opinion on what to publish. The material referenced is not related to the reason we have an article on the school, because we basically have an article on all schools. I think your point about contentious is actually undermined by the fact that at least three people consider the material and the source inappropriate. That would be my definition of contentious. Regarding self serving, I have to say, yes, it is self serving, in that one user wishes to add it, so it serves that person. We have no idea who this user is; they could well be the author of the piece in question. And let's not forget that we're discussing a paper written by students: How unbiased is this source?

• Let's be clear what we are discussing here:

During the 70s, drug culture and humor played a prominent and benign role in school life. The principal, William A.G. "The Hook" Fisher would ironically implore in the morning announcements to "please keep the pot smoking out of the stairwells." The school motto was commonly emended, in the student body, to "Know something. Do something. Be something. Smoke something." The professionally styled school paper, the Foreword, with the approval of the school's administration, commonly published humorous lines in its classifieds section relating students' identifying with drug consumption. For example,

"MAKE MONEY--Sell methaquaaladone and STP in your spare time. See Jon in rm. 344 or by the stack."

"SEEKING EMPLOYMENT as drug tester for pharmaceutical laboratory. Five years of experience. Parents cool, see Jon in room 211."

"Susie Get Stoned Skiing, Shelley"

"Rosie smokes dope at lunch!"

"LOCAL DRUG MAN -- 4TH FLOOR --MR. O.B. REDS, BROWNS, UPS, DOWNS -- HASH FOR CASH."

"BIBLE CALL: A TAPE LIBRARY 661-3455 TAPE 179; WHAT ABOUT MARIJUANA?"

School administration also approved publishing Op-Ed's with a kindhearted view of drug use. For example, new federal drug laws regarding "a whole new form of prohibition...erupting around its paraphernalia" were deemed "absurd" and an attempt to legislate against thoughts. Michael O'Neil goes on to observe the new laws' potential to affect the established tolerant outlook towards drugs, but not the practice of drug use:

"At best, the crackdown on paraphernalia can alter the permissive attitude toward drugs. But it is as unrealistic to expect this law to make much of a dent in drug use as to expect a ban on shot glasses to solve the problem of alcohol."

Sometimes marijuana's omnipresence also associated it with violence: "There is a tense atmosphere in the hallways. Students are often deliberately tripped or pushed, and some are continuously harrassed by small groups of people. The demands have been anything from pot to the coat off one's back."< Nevertheless, drug use was not considered a core problem of the school. Writing in 1977, Amy Lichter cites a national Gallup poll ranking drugs as only the fifth highest ranking problem facing schools. Lichter then quotes the school administration's emphasis on other issues as surpassing the factors the public expressed in that poll, such as lack of discipline:

"Allderdice Vice Principals Dr. Norma Mowry and Sidney Feiler said that although they recognize the relevance of all the problems identified by the public, they see lack of discipline and achievement as the foremost problems. Mowry stressed the dominance of disciplinary problems nationally and the dominance of achievement difficulties at Allderdice."

• Now to pick through this, what we have is that in the seventies the principle may have said something. Now only the principle himself is allowed as a reliable self published source on what he said, and such info is only allowed in an article on the principle, which we wouldn't have as he isn't notable. Other than that, how many principles in how many schools have said the same thing? How relevant is this to the article as a whole, and how balancing is it? Were there local news reports on this culture at the school? Okay, we appear to have a reasonable source for the fact that the motto was amended, but again, how relevant is this? How many school mottos are similarly amended? This is a statement in search of relevance. As to the claim that the paper was published with the school's approval, that requires a citation. Can we source that claim? If not, it has to go. And do we really think classified sections of any paper are a reliable source? Can I source an article based upon the classifieds of my local rag? So people made jokes in a school newspaper. Is this news? Is this important? Is this of relevance? Is this somehow significant? And let us not forget that the section itself points out it is not of any great significance: "drug use was not considered a core problem of the school". Although, again, no source is available for this claim, the following quote not quite supporting the statement. Let's also remember that we can't use self published sources to make "claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject". Let's remember that this is a student published paper, so it can only represent the views of the students, and not be used to support the views of third parties. So what we have is a section, which, edited for style, would read something like as follows:

In the 1970s students would make jokes in the school newspaper about drugs and drug use. However, one student wrote an article on drugs for the paper, claiming some students felt it may be creating a hostile atmosphere.

• Do we think this is any different from any other school, at any other point in history? Is this significant to this school? Is this school the only school to experience this? Does the sourcing back up the points made? Can we ascertain quotes were transcribed accurately? Steve block Talk 23:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Elomis–Thanx for coming in on this, we should definitely be discussing this. Please go back and look at what 0-0-0-Destruct-0 is actually using as a verification for his information. He is not using school newspaper articles but classified ads apparently submitted by students. Now I might give the benefit of doubt to an article having passed editorial oversite, but my guess (and I admit it is just a guess) is that oversite of classified ads was minimal at best. So it is my feeling that the Drug Culture of the 1970s is at most, based on these references, a case of "Isn't it interesting what the kids could sneak into the paper" rather than an actual example of a culture in the school.

As to the school motto: was it officially changed, or was it just a common joke among the students?

– Paschmitts 23:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

Hrm ok. There's a couple of things I disagree with. I think the student newspaper or magazine is published by the school about the school and is therefore self-published. The student body, the individual principal and the staff body each serverably I would consider to be "the school" by most reasonable people's understanding. Consider the statement "My school has a record of high accademic achievement", this statement refers to the student body, It's uneccessary to qualify it with "the student body at my school has a record of high accademic achievement" so splitting out the parts of the school into who does and doesn't constitute "the school" is probably examining it too closely.

However I do agree that there is no place for the material sourced by the classified advertisements in the school paper. Even when I believe that the school paper is a verifiable source for the school and what went on there, classified ads are paid for by the inserter for his/her own reasons whatever they may be, and they push the line on the school paper being a verifiable source on the school itself over the edge.

Here's a thought. It seems to me that 0-0-0-Destruct-0 feels this is important and warrants including, and the verifiability is about half-half the way I see it (with school newspaper articles being just inside the line and classifieds being over it). The undue weight policy, to my knowledge, was generally used to guard against things like a stub of an actor having two paragraphs of information about their pet, not to throttle information about something so that it grows proportionally to the rest of the article. But I think I can find a way of including what is includable and should be includable under Misplaced Pages's policies, and not having it drown out core information about the article. 0-0-0-Destruct-0 and others, how far would the following paragraph go towards suitable for all of you?

Trivia

During the 1970s the school's student newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary about drug use in the school, and the staff's reluctance to actively attempt to extinguish it. The students commonly appended the school's motto of "Know something, Do something, Be something" to "Know something, Do something, Be something, Smoke something" and the principal implored school students to refrain from smoking Marijuana in the stairwells.

Is this anything like a middle ground? it's probably less than 0-0-0-Destruct-0 would like to see, and more than others might, but seems to be largely verifiable and makes the section an "interesting footnote" about the school rather than adding a heap of weight to the issue by making it a "side" of it. •Elomis• 00:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This seems like a reasonable way to handle it. I won't object. – Paschmitts 01:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• I can't see the source as allowing the principal quote. It's a student body paper, and doesn't represent the school, only the student body. As to the undue weight policy, you actually have it in the reverse. The undue weight policy was created to guard against giving minor topics space in large articles. Is the school newspaper of sufficient weight to allow its views to stand in the article? I'd argue against it, and I'd also argue that we don't generally allow trivia sections within articles either. This stuff just isn't informative. It offers very little in the way of verifiability.

My proposition doesn't include the source supporting the principal, only the newspaper's commentary. If it's unable to be sourced and you feel that vehement about it's exclusion then it can be excluded. While you are correct to the letter of the guideline that unsourced material should not be included, I feel that Ignore all rules applies here. The quote, while unsourced, is in a section in which it is closely related to another sourced statement as a build on it. Consider the newspaper commentary about drug use being a core issue and the unsourced comment by the principal as a trivial expansion on it. Is it correct to the letter of the guideline? No. Does it improve and maintain the article as per WP:IGNORE. Yes. That all said, if people feel really strongly that this is inappropriate I can't override it. In essence I am admitting that I (on behalf of 0-0-0-Destruct-0) am wrong, but I feel that it does no harm, in fact it does good, for the wrong stance to prevail in this instance.

No, the way you wrote it wasn't from the POV of the commentary of the student paper. If you want to do that, you write, the student's school newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary about drug use in the school, and presented the principal as imploring school students to refrain from smoking Marijuana in the stairwells. It also reported that some students commonly appended the school's motto of "Know something, Do something, Be something" to "Know something, Do something, Be something, Smoke something". That's the best the sourcing allows. So what us editors have to do next is run that statement through our policies. Is it neutral, well, it presents the the source, yes. Is it a self published source, we all agree that it is, yes. Is it a partisan source, yes. It represents the views of the students. Is it balanced by a view from the Principal or authorities? No. Is it self serving? Yes, again it represents the view of the students. Is it related to the reason why this school is notable? As far as I can see, no. Is there a drug problem at this school? Is there wider local coverage which will help contextualise this issue? Or is it original research or POV pushing? I'm leaning to the latter because we have no other supporting documentary evidence. As for ignoring all rules, that tends to be with ignoring processes rather than the NPOV policy, which as a founding principle is inviolate. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Are you seriously suggesting every student dig out back issues of their high school rags and add all the information from them to articles? I'd also like the copyright situation on the links to those newsletters clarified, because if they breach copyright we cannot link to them, it's illegal. Also, the source does not support the assertion that the staff were reluctant to "actively attempt to extinguish" the alleged culture.

No, and with all due respect to a fellow Misplaced Pages editor that's absurd. The way you are appearing at the moment is as if you are saying I would advocate that all articles should be deleted if one should. I am sure we both as sensible people understand that information may be relevant in one case and not in another, and should be included in some and not others. It is never a breach of copyright to link to an external article, that assertion is also rather absurd. While I understand your defense of the exclusion of this material I think you are probably scraping the bottom of the barrel. Please understand that I am patient enough to hear and address all your comments on this so that we can reach a consensus here, it's not neccessary therefore to resort to trying to find a way of making it's inclusion illegal. If an external site to Misplaced Pages has copyright infringing material on it, it is that sites problem to address it, after all, it's discovered all the time that journalistic and library information is sometimes copied or plagarised or inserted from inappropriate sources. We don't forbid linking to the New York Times or the Sydney Morning Herald at the risk that their journalists have plagarised this week's column. I am reliably informed that the source of that information has staff who are sufficiently on-the-ball as to address any copyright infringements. If they decide that the material infringes, they may take it down and we would remove the citation and have to re-look at the verifiability of the material in question. You may even wish to contact them and ask them to investigate if they feel this strongly. Relax! Let's talk through this in sensible encyclopedic terms, and not try and declare things as alarming breaches of policy or the law.

You are seriously misrepresenting my view. I asked you if you were allowing all school newspapers to be used as a source. You seem to indicate that you won't, which means we should approach this from a position of caution, rather than a position of advocacy. If we don't think school newspapers are generally a valid source then the onus is on the people pushing for this to be included to make the case, not on me to make my case. As to the legality of linking to material posted on the internet in breach of copyright, I suggest you review our external links policy and the case of INTELLECTUAL RESERVE, INC. v. UTAH LIGHTHOUSE MINISTRY, INC.. Now you may well be reliably informed, but that doesn't help me or Misplaced Pages, doe sit? I could just as easily claim I am reliably informed otherwise. I note the current issues of Foreword are protected by copyright, so I have to assume prior ones were too. As to the source of the information, and the staff there, I'm not sure what you are talking about. The material looks to be hosted on a university server, and I guess could have been placed there by anyone, from a student to an employee. And please, let's not characterise my words as anything other than they are. I am seeking to determine all aspects of the viability of this information in good faith, and I don't think it's beneficial to characterise me as declaring it illegal. All I am doing is asking the question. Whether the site in question decides they wish to host the material does not matter. We do not link to sites that violate the copyrights of others. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

American copyright says that those students own the rights to their works. Convinced by discussion at User talk:0-0-0-Destruct-0. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 15:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Like I say, all you have is one self serving source at the moment. A student newspaper is also not published by the school. I should imagine there may well have been a disclaimer within the pages, and I should also imagine the school did not officially endorse the views presented in representations to prospective parents or the education board or governors. For all we know this information may have caused a stir amongst the governors. It is therefore not a neutral point of view to present this as endorsed by the school authorities unless sourcing allows that, and as yet we don't have that.

Mmm. I still believe that a student newspaper is published by the school because severably the student body, the faculty, the principal, the grounds upon which it is built and in the case of private schools the corporate entity that governs it can all be recognised as 'the school'. I think I mentioned previously that if my school has a "history of accademic achievement" it relates to the student body and that it isn't neccessary to clarify that by "school" I am referring to the student body. It has been my experience that all student newspapers are subjected to some form of editorial approval. It may be fleeting and nonchalant but it is there and it cannot be discounted. If the school (by which I mean the faculty and principal :D ) wanted I am certain they could have exercised a right of veto on the material in question.

I don't quite follow your argument here. Because 1+1+1+1=4, then 1 is equal to 4? The student body is the student body, and in this instance, through this source, represents the student body. Let me try this another way. Say an independent newspaper quoted a student as saying that the Principal had stated what is being stated here. Would that make it a statement by the school or by a student? Now look at what the school is trying to do through the publishing of this paper? It is used as a teaching resource, to train student in the production of a newspaper; the paper is published in the same manner as a real newspaper; the publisher is not necesarily associating themselves with the views presented. Take Rupert Murdoch; do we associate to him all the views published by the myriad of newspapers he owns? Or the chief executive of News Corp? No. We allow these papers to speak as themselves. Other resources may infer from the newspapers the views of the owners, but we cannot. We can only summarise sources. The claims being made quite simply are not supported by the source. And I'd note we only have access to very poorly legible portions of the source. Your point about "history of accademic achievement" is something different. Since the teaching faculty and the administrators of the school are measured by the achievements of the tested student body, sources describe them in a manner of being attributed to the school. Indeed, in my country a school's performance is determined by the academic achievement of the tested body, and does belong to the school in question, not the student body. Unless you believe that a carpenter has little to do with the skirting board in a house, which is solely the product of the wood? I assume you ascribe some part in the academic achievement to the the teaching staff? However, when we come to ascribe viewpoints, we can only ascribe those to the people we can source as having actually made them. You are correct the school may well have been able to interfere had they wanted to. It is also true that a government can interfere and prevent the publication of many stories. That they choose not to do so does not mean they have endorsed the story, does it? You seem to be ascribing the Principal an editorial voice, when his would be a governing voice. The editorial voice would likely come from the Head of the English department or a teacher within. You seem to be misunderstanding my underlying points here. I have no problem with what the paper states. I have problems with what you are trying to make it say. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding it not being a neutral point of view you are entirely correct, and well done for pointing it out. But that's a no-brainer to fix. We just change our prototype paragraph from student newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary about drug use in the school to student newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary on the students' view of drug use in the school. There, problem fixed, right?

• It may well be your view that it has been endorsed by the school authorities, but Misplaced Pages works on a NPOV basis, and such a claim in this instance needs to be sourced. I would also like to posit the view that the editions put forward as sourcing for this would only allow us to make the claim for the period the sources cover, i.e. one month in 1972. Are we really suggesting we document every month of every year in such a fashion? Misplaced Pages is not a collection of indiscriminate information. Like I say, all you really have is the trivial claim that During late 1972 the school's student newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary about drug use in the school. The students commonly appended the school's motto of "Know something, Do something, Be something" to "Know something, Do something, Be something, Smoke something".

See above, I don't think endorsed at all, but certainly they would have not exercised veto. There's a difference you could drive a truck through. I think 0-0-0-Destruct-0's point is that in any other school at any other time (more any other time maybe) the veto process that staff at a school will exercise over the paper would lead to them banhammering such material without a second's thought. The reader of material like this in an encyclopedia might infer that if it was the case that it wasn't, then it must have been a historically notable part of the school's attitude.

See the truck above I drive through your point on veto. I'm not really interested in somebody's view on what may or may not happen in some or every other school. You want to include it in Misplaced Pages, you source that statement. Otherwise, it's original research. I'd argue the absolute opposite to be honest. And precisely because we might lead our readers to infer something that we can't support, we should not include it. That's the whole basis of our neutral point of view policy. I'm staggered you are using this as a reason to support inclusion. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• We all agree this stuff is trivial, even you have posited it's appearance as being in a trivia section. I note the pages presented would also allow us to claim that there were security problems in the school in November of 1972, why not add that to the mix? Why are we focussing on this one aspect of school life from the 1970s? Is someone pushing an agenda here? Are we adopting a NPOV or are we giving this issue far greater weight than any other issue within these papers presented, and also all activities that have happened at the school. That is the basis of the undue weight section of the NPOV policy. That we do not grant a topic greater weight than any other topic within an article. Either we cover every story in these excerpted papers, and allow all such paper articles to be used as sources, and allow all information there sourced to be added, or we allow none. The undue weight policy does not allow a middle ground.

Why not add security problems to the mix? I think this is where your comments become solely true and someone wouldn't have any way to argue against you. It's been said that all schools more or less have or had drug problems, particuarly perhaps in the late 60s and early 70s (free love and all that hey?), I think 0-0-0-Destruct-0's assertion that this is different is true. While a lot of schools have drug problems what is interesting here is the 'students will be students' light-hearted attitude to it and the chuckling of the principal that I can imagine as he admonished people to please stop pulling cones in the hallway. Conversely it's completely the case that every school everywhere has had systemic bullying, undesirables hanging around and stuff getting stolen. I think 0-0-0-Destruct-0's points on the drug stuff is valid, but nobody would be able to make the point that a school has security problems that are notable, save Columbine or Dunblane maybe.

Can you source your view that this school is different in published sources? If not, it's original research. I should imagine there are plenty of sources which evaluate the drug culture of schools in the late seventies, as well as works of fiction. As to your points about Columbine and Dunblane, why exactly are they notable? Are they articles based on student newspapers? No, they were internationally reported incidents which achieved notability through wide coverage, and they also had a cultural impact in the adoption of new laws. Are we suggesting the same is true of the Taylor Allerdice school in the month of November of 1972? Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• I appreciate you are here acting as an advocate, but I feel someone has to act as an advocate for the policies and consensus inherent within those policies. This stuff simply doesn't fit within the remit. Balancing the issues, there are simply too many unanswered questions about the sources, the copyright nature of the sources, the motive for adding this, the weight it gives and the verifiability.

Thanks for the appreciation :) It's common for people to get grumpy about AMAs because we can be seen as anything from lawyers to volunteer thugs to help push a point.

• Like I say, this information fails on the first point of using a self published souurce, since it is entirely unrelated to the school's notability. Would we have an article on the school if this issue hadn't existed? Yes. Does it make the school more notable? No. On the second point, it is contentious; we have no way to verify it is endorsed by the school authorites. On point three, is it self serving, the piece is commentary and certainly serves the opinion of the author. On point four, it involves claims about what the Principal said, which are not self published, since the Principal has not himself published the view. I publish my blog on google; does that mean my views on what google does are endorsed by google? On point five, we do doubt who wrote it; I assert it is the student body, you assert it is the school. The only author we can all agree upon is the reporter referenced above, Amy Lichter. Beyond that, we have no idea what the school policy towards the paper was at the time of publication, nor do we have any idea who the editor of the paper was, as far as I can see. Too many unverifiable quantities for snippets of information that are, at best, trivial. Steve block Talk 14:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with all of that but for the Google thing. In the same vein that the principal would have veto'd the paper had he felt it appropriate, you'd find yourself presented with 'That username and password combination is invalid' if you pushed the boundaries that Google have set. 0-0-0-Destruct-0's desire for the inclusion of this material is all about where the line is on what would be invalid commentary in the paper, and how it was in a different place at that school and that time than was normal and unremarkable (therefore it's notable).

You think google would risk the bad publicity that would cause? Do you doubt I can source a number of blogs on google owned services which publish views at odds to google? Do you think google closed down every blog which criticised or ascribed false motive to their moves in appeasing the Chinese government? Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Regarding undue weight, I hope this snippet from the neutral point of view policy makes the position clear: An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements. Is the school newspaper's view of the culture of the school in one month of one year significant enough to warrant coverage within the article? The undue weight section of the neutral point of view policy has little to do with an actors pet, and I suggest we all reacquaint ourselves with the policy and discuss the actual words contained. Steve block Talk 14:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

True, and my putting it as a 'trivia' section was an attempt at making sure that it wasn't taken to be more important than what it actually is. Maybe that is inappropriate here, but despite the need to avoid trivia sections in articles they are useful as starting discussion points as the article grows (this is covered in that guideline).

Hence this discussion. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Looking at comments above, I think we do have some breaching of the neutral point of view. User:0-0-0-Destruct-0 states The important thing that's failing to be considered by the other editors: my plainly stated intention is to document that "During the 70s, drug culture and humor played a prominent and benign role in school life." To put it plainly, the source does not allow this view. The user goes on to say The point is that the very fact that the administration allowed the paper to publish the kind of content I cite is itself evidence of that admnistration's benign attitude toward the students' drug culture. This is baldly original research. We cannot infer anything from the publication of the paper, we must trace it to reliable sources. This source does not substantiate the claim being made here, since we have no source which demonstrates that the administration were complicit in publishing the article. Reading the school's website makes it quite plain that the paper is written and edited by students, and is targeted at the student as an audience. The user goes on to state Even if you impeach the quality of the source, the administration's approving such an impeachable source documents its benign attitude. That a quality source publishes this material makes the point even more emphatically, but even if you consider the source less than quality, it still documents the attested fact<my emphasis>. There is no fact here, simply an undocumented assertion. The goal being pushed here is one that quite simply fails our original research policy. Steve block Talk 14:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No, the source doesn't allow it to that extent. In my role as an advocate I tried to quietly concede that without neccessarily dropping my advocacy, suggesting the watered down trivia section as a way of keeping it to either the core of what can be sourced, plus or minus some affiliated objective inferrences. I don't know if it is so much original research, just because I spend so much of my time csd-ing really, really original research. We need to be a little pragmatic here, it's sooo difficult to cite and reference an attitude regarding an article; because you are commenting on an opinion, you run the real risk of looking like you are giving one yourself.

Maybe I have more experience with original research then? Although this isn't a pissing contest. However, where you seem to be having trouble is perhaps with your view that we add some inferences, something at odds with the NPOV policy. I'm unclear that an advocate should be bending that foundation principle in this manner. We need to be entirely pragmatic here. The NPOV is a hard rule, but one we have to enforce equally in all articles. I have no problem discussing an opinion on anything, but as soon as you attempt to put an opinion into an article, it has to be sourced. And if someone's stated goal is to breach our policies, well, we have any number of policies which describe why that is a bad thing. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

At the end of the day I think, and if 0-0-0-Destruct-0 has a problem with this please contact me via the talk page, that I have explained and elaborated on his points as much as I can, pointing out where I believe he has been right and trying to keep it as much within Misplaced Pages's policies as possible without excluding anything under those policies that would make the encyclopedia better (see WP:IGNORE). If you guys really, really see this as being as irrelevant as you seem to then it may need to be left out which is regrettable because I think it adds colour to the article without breaking anything. I've hopefully managed to put forward his points on his behalf and there has been no incivility towards me, if those points are still unable to reach consensus it can be taken elsewhere if neccessary but thanks for hearing me (and him through me) out. •Elomis• 03:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If we can agree that this argument is about whether to include the following, In late 1972, the student's school newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary about drug use in the school, and characterised the principal as imploring school students to refrain from smoking Marijuana in the stairwells. It also reported that some students commonly appended the school's motto of "Know something, Do something, Be something" to "Know something, Do something, Be something, Smoke something". then there can be more movement in the discussion. If there's an interest in pushing the view that this school is unique or notable because of that, then I think it can't go much further because we're in violation of long standing and somewhat inviolate policies which consensually agree we don't do that. I'm not buying the argument that this snippet of information is of such an impact that we should ignore them. Steve block Talk 13:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

RFC

(Messages requesting comment left at requests for comments, Verifiability, Neutral point of view, Reliable sources and WikiProject Schools.)

Basically, the nub of the dispute is whether to allow a school newspaper as a source within this article to present the following section or similar:

Drug Culture of the 1970s

During the 70s, drug culture and humor played a prominent and benign role in school life. The principal, William A.G. "The Hook" Fisher would ironically implore in the morning announcements to "please keep the pot smoking out of the stairwells." The school motto was commonly emended, in the student body, to "Know something. Do something. Be something. Smoke something." The professionally styled school paper, the Foreword, with the approval of the school's administration, commonly published humorous lines in its classifieds section relating students' identifying with drug consumption. For example,

"MAKE MONEY--Sell methaquaaladone and STP in your spare time. See Jon in rm. 344 or by the stack."

"SEEKING EMPLOYMENT as drug tester for pharmaceutical laboratory. Five years of experience. Parents cool, see Jon in room 211."

"Susie Get Stoned Skiing, Shelley"

"Rosie smokes dope at lunch!"

"LOCAL DRUG MAN -- 4TH FLOOR --MR. O.B. REDS, BROWNS, UPS, DOWNS -- HASH FOR CASH."

"BIBLE CALL: A TAPE LIBRARY 661-3455 TAPE 179; WHAT ABOUT MARIJUANA?"

School administration also approved publishing Op-Ed's with a kindhearted view of drug use. For example, new federal drug laws regarding "a whole new form of prohibition...erupting around its paraphernalia" were deemed "absurd" and an attempt to legislate against thoughts. Michael O'Neil goes on to observe the new laws' potential to affect the established tolerant outlook towards drugs, but not the practice of drug use:

"At best, the crackdown on paraphernalia can alter the permissive attitude toward drugs. But it is as unrealistic to expect this law to make much of a dent in drug use as to expect a ban on shot glasses to solve the problem of alcohol."

Sometimes marijuana's omnipresence also associated it with violence: "There is a tense atmosphere in the hallways. Students are often deliberately tripped or pushed, and some are continuously harrassed by small groups of people. The demands have been anything from pot to the coat off one's back." Nevertheless, drug use was not considered a core problem of the school. Writing in 1977, Amy Lichter cites a national Gallup poll ranking drugs as only the fifth highest ranking problem facing schools. Lichter then quotes the school administration's emphasis on other issues as surpassing the factors the public expressed in that poll, such as lack of discipline:

"Allderdice Vice Principals Dr. Norma Mowry and Sidney Feiler said that although they recognize the relevance of all the problems identified by the public, they see lack of discipline and achievement as the foremost problems. Mowry stressed the dominance of disciplinary problems nationally and the dominance of achievement difficulties at Allderdice."

References

1. "Foreword, 104:2, March 25, 1980, 11" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
2. "Foreword, 104:2, March 25, 1980, 11" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
3. "Foreword, 101:4, January 19, 1979, 8" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
4. "Foreword, 101:4, January 19, 1979, 8" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
5. "Foreword, 101:3, December 20, 1978, 8" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23. Original in boldface.
6. "Foreword, 101:3, December 20, 1978, 8" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
7. "O'Neil, Michael. "Paraphernalia laws fail." Foreword, 103:3, December 19, 1979, 2" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
8. "O'Neil, Michael. "Paraphernalia blues." Foreword, 103:3, December 19, 1979, 3" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
9. "Matthews, Jenny. "Acts of Violence Increase in range." Foreword, 101:3, December 20, 1978, 1" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..
10. "Lichter, Amy. "Light shed on education defect." Foreword, 98:2, November 15, 1977, 1" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-11-23..

Questions

The questions are:

• whether this material is presented from a neutral point of view
• whether it accurately describes statements
• whether the information is from a reliable source
• whether it gives the possible drug use undue weight
• whether the scans linked to are in breach of copyright
• whether there is original research being pushed
• if the primary source material is presented properly

Comment from Steve block

I tend to take the view that the school newspaper, produced by the students for the students, can't be used as a reliable primary source for the school as a whole, especially the school authority. I believe if we want to source the statements of the principal, we should source verbatim quotes in reliable sources, and not attributed ones in a potentially partisan source such as a school newspaper. I also feel the material does not describe the position from a neutral point of view. I am also concerned about the copyright status of the scans, and if those in themselves can be linked to, and indeed if they can be used as reliable sources, having been uploaded by the editor interested in adding the material. I have to ask if this presents a conflict of interest. I personally believe the best these sources can support is this:

In the late 1970s, the student's school newspaper contained substantial light-hearted commentary about drug use in the school, and characterised the principal as imploring school students to refrain from smoking Marijuana in the stairwells. It also reported that some students commonly appended the school's motto of "Know something, Do something, Be something" to "Know something, Do something, Be something, Smoke something". Retracted see below.

I would ask whether this is worthwhile commentary in this article? Is it unique to this school, or is it giving the position undue weight? I would ask that were this behaviour of interest, it would have been covered in some form of published work other than the school newspaper. Interested in all thoughts in an effort to build a consensus. Steve block Talk 16:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Further, looking at the sources given above, I note my suggested text is actually not backed up by the sources provided. I have therefore retracted it. It appears it has been based on personal experience. Steve block Talk 16:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment from Elomis

In Short:

• whether this material is presented from a neutral point of view

No but let's be careful about our use of the term neutral point of view, the proposed material comments on a point of view. This is acceptable, consider Flat Earth, this article does not have neutral point of view problems, despite the fact it describes a point of view popular at a time. It should not be inferred that by commenting on this point of view the article gives undue support to it.

• whether it accurately describes statements

It does, in part. A reference or citation should not have to support every miniscule detail, just the main assertion. If we say that Bill Clinton is a democrat, and cite his leadership of the democrat party and the United States as commander in chief as a democrat, we are not leaving out the possibility of republican-esque views on some things. Because the reference material supports the crux of the assertion it is suitable.

• whether the information is from a reliable source

Yes, in this instance. We would not trust a school newspaper as a reliable source for anything other than commentary on a school, but that is exactly what we are trusting it for here.

• whether it gives the possible drug use undue weight

My comments on the material have (deliberatley if quietly) shifted the focus of the included material. We are no longer commenting on the drug use and how systemic or abundant it was, we are commenting on the student and staff attitudes to a popular culture. It may well be that not a gram of the 'erb was inhaled on the campus ever, but the phenomena of the principals comments and the students lighthearted jokes are still worthy of note. And it stands to reason also that the weight of them are as trivial as they should be.

• whether the scans linked to are in breach of copyright

Pfft. Patent nonsense. May be designed to drag the discussion into a terrified paranoia of infringement but I assume just patent nonsense.

• whether there is original research being pushed

No. The original researchers were the editors of the school newspaper.

• if the primary source material is presented properly

I'll decline to comment on this, without prejudice.

I take the view that a school staff body has a right of veto over a school newspaper which they would excercise were they to feel that the student are misrepresenting the school of which they are an indisputable part. I believe that the school student body, staff, grounds and to a lesser extent previous students and the community in general are very often considered "the school" and that the school newspaper must be considered a reliable source in the absence of retractions or public commentary to the contrary. The fact that there was no exercise of veto rights of the school staff, the fact that no retraction was published and that there was no commentary (perhaps in a community newspaper in which the school resides) supports 0-0-0-Destruct-0, particularly in face of his assertion not focussing on the drug culture in the school at the time, but particularly that there was an apathy towards such behavior. Surely apathy is best demonstrated by an authorative bodies neglect to exercise an overriding power?

I feel there are several angles to dispute this materials inclusion, all of which either do not proscribe the material or do so weakly and fall under WP:IGNORE insomuch as it is of interest to build some information about the schools history and attitudes into an article which stands to become exempli gratia of how not to write a boring school stub which secures inclusion in Misplaced Pages by defending itself to default by those who (wrongly) believe that all schools are inherrantly notable. I think all schools should strive to show something, and a historical ideaology is as good a thing as any, to set themselves apart from at least the set of every school to ever exist anywhere. It serves the spirit of WP:IGNORE to not require AAP newswire coverage citation of every nuance of a school if we can improve Misplaced Pages by including the information. Also, if reference material in it's support is not ironclad, do we not as intelligent people have the editorial nouse to point this out? Consider "information from the school newspaper pointed in the late 1970s to the school staff bodies apathy towards drug use in the school, a self proof in that the school's staff body did not veto such articles" as opposed to what it seems is being assumed as the protoype section of "throughout the schools history people took drugs in the school". If we feel it's contentious, or if we are commenting on a shade of the schools history, we should surely be able to come to agreement on how gently to emphasise the issue.

The copyright status of the scans is a complete red herring and I think a lot more has been made of it than would be neccessary in ten thousand other occasions. It may be possible that it's a misguided grabbing at straws to discredit the source in the face of a loosing battle on it's relavence. •Elomis• 01:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"May be designed to drag the discussion into a terrified paranoia of infringement but I assume just patent nonsense."

Thanks. That's a real concern, and if these student papers had been written a few years later, those students would own the copyright. To dismiss the concern as nonsense and to suggest that it was being used deceptively is inappropriate and disrespectful. Additionally, it's poor judgment to assume anything about the nature of editorial oversight in high school student newspapers; I have a background in student journalism, and I can tell you from my research into the matter that high school papers use a variety of structures, and so it is difficult to know who approved something, or if anyone approved it at all. Whereas some papers are rigidly governed by the faculty, others just print whatever anyone wants to put in, although such practice has led to its own demise in recent years because, well, people get offended by anything now.--Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but they weren't, and they don't. If Beethoven were still alive he'd own the copyright to the Sonata in E Major. But he's not, and it's public domain. There has been no assertion anywhere in any of the comments that the material consititutes a copyright infringement under a section or sections of legislation or at common law, just foot stomping that it may consitute an infringement. I think it'd be highly productive to set that entire argument aside until it can be appropriately substantiated (even a little bit), I'm sorry it looks like I assumed bad faith but there is little evidence of genuine concern for intellectual property rights. With regard to my assertion about editorial oversight in high school student newspapers, it's poor judgement to assume I was making any claims on it. I have no idea about editorial process in school newspapers, and to state that I had experience in the area would be trying to make assertions based of my own personal experience which would be inappropriate in a debate which has so heavily insisted to date on rock solid references and citations. One thing I do know for sure however is that regardless of what level of interraction staff have in a student newspaper, they do have a right of veto. They may agree or disagree or interfere or stand clear to a range of extents in a range of schools but a school will not permit an issue of a newspaper if it is entirely inappropriate and false (save for obvious satirical or parody reasons). It's not about approval, it's about absence of disapproval and considering 0-0-0-Destruct-0's position is that the staff were apathetic to the culture, I think it's astoundingly accurate, don't you? •Elomis• 21:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• The point about copyright is important, and isn't "foot stomping". Per policy and legally, we can't link to sites which violate copyright. I'm sorry you don't feel that issue is important, but the issue is, consensually across Misplaced Pages, felt to be important enough to mention in policy and guidance. Since the scans provided are only partial, not wholly complete, it's impossible to ascertain whether copyright notices were on the papers present. It's not unreasonable to question this fact, given the person responsible for the uploading of the papers appears to be the same person who is pushing for material to be included based upon those scans. I actually have no problem with the issues being cited without linking to the scans, as long as the papers themselves are used in a manner in keeping with our other policies. Steve block Talk 21:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've edited the recent edit by User:0-0-0-Destruct-0 to better conform to policies. The statements "Taylor Allderdice remains one of fewer" and "Today, the school administration represents the paper" have been edited to conform with our guidance on avoiding avoiding statements that will date quickly. Basically this entails adding a link to a page which will allow statements to be amended as events change. The latter statement was also edited to avoid making a claim not substantiated by the source, along with the earlier statement "During the 1970's the school considered the Foreword to be". These statements reference mottos the newspaper carried, and I think it's far simpler to describe them as mottos and not make unreferenced claims about who determined or endorsed the mottos, nor add any weight as to how these statements were considered other than as mottos. It appears mottos have a long tradition in American newspapers, so it's best to keep the information pegged to what can be verifiably sourced.

I've amended the statement Faculty oversees the professionally styled newspaper's production, ensuring that "...the work focuses on students gathering accurate information and interviews from official sources..." to better reflect the practise as demonstrated on the page referenced. Since the page openly states "Peer editing and discussion on story angles, approaches to ethical decisions, and coherent order are topics presented by students and teacher. The setting is informal and students are given much individualized attention and opportunities for revision before the final product or publication." I think it is a stretch to describe it as "Faculty oversees". I'm not American so I'm not sure of the exact usage of the word Faculty, but it doesn't strike me as appropriate to use it to describe a process involving one teacher. I also think it's important to reflect that the paper is produced for a student audience per the quote provided and also "The practical need for using good grammar, correct punctuation and spelling are visibly understood when writing for a critical high school audience." I removed a number of references relating to Maxine Lapiduss which don't reference Foreword and therefore aren't substantiating the claim and are thus extraneous, and removed one for Gary Graff likewise.

I also edited the section regarding the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism's Crown Newspaper awards. I removed the ref to the year 1986, since this appears to be contradicted by the statement " Gold Crown Awards were first presented in 1982 and Silver Crown Awards were added in 1984." I also edited the text to avoid factualising an assertion made by a primary source, namely a quote regarding the awards by the university website, and also rewrote the text to better describe what was actually achieved in the awards. I also moved the external link to the scanned copies of the Foreword to the external links section. Steve block Talk 22:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

After Steve's edits, I think this section by Destruct is a great addition. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 22:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Pittsburgh articles
• Unknown-importance Pittsburgh articles
• WikiProject Pittsburgh articles