Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:58, 22 February 2020

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. History Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Austria High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Belgium High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belgium, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Belgium on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BelgiumWikipedia:WikiProject BelgiumTemplate:WikiProject BelgiumBelgium-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Czech Republic Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Czech Republic, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Czech Republic on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Czech RepublicWikipedia:WikiProject Czech RepublicTemplate:WikiProject Czech RepublicCzech Republic Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Denmark High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Denmark, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Denmark on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DenmarkWikipedia:WikiProject DenmarkTemplate:WikiProject DenmarkDenmark High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. England High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ethnic groups High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Faroe Islands High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Faroe Islands, a WikiProject related to the nation of Faroe Islands. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.Faroe IslandsWikipedia:WikiProject Faroe IslandsTemplate:WikiProject Faroe IslandsFaroe Islands High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Germany High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Greenland High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greenland, a WikiProject related to the nation of Greenland. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.GreenlandWikipedia:WikiProject GreenlandTemplate:WikiProject GreenlandGreenland High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Hungary Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HungaryWikipedia:WikiProject HungaryTemplate:WikiProject HungaryHungary Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Iceland High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iceland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Iceland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IcelandWikipedia:WikiProject IcelandTemplate:WikiProject IcelandIceland High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. European Microstates: Liechtenstein This article is within the scope of WikiProject European Microstates, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of European Microstates on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European MicrostatesWikipedia:WikiProject European MicrostatesTemplate:WikiProject European MicrostatesEuropean Microstates ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Liechtenstein (assessed as High-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Luxembourg High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Luxembourg, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LuxembourgWikipedia:WikiProject LuxembourgTemplate:WikiProject LuxembourgLuxembourg High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Moldova Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Moldova, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Moldova on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MoldovaWikipedia:WikiProject MoldovaTemplate:WikiProject MoldovaMoldova Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Netherlands This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Netherlands, an attempt to create, expand, and improve articles related to the Netherlands on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.NetherlandsWikipedia:WikiProject NetherlandsTemplate:WikiProject NetherlandsNetherlands Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Norse history and culture Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Norse history and culture, a WikiProject related to all activities of the North Germanic peoples, both in Scandinavia and abroad, prior to the formation of the Kalmar Union in 1397. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.Norse history and cultureWikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and cultureTemplate:WikiProject Norse history and cultureNorse history and culture Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Norway High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Norway, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Norway on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NorwayWikipedia:WikiProject NorwayTemplate:WikiProject NorwayNorway High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Poland Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Romania Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Romania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Romania-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomaniaWikipedia:WikiProject RomaniaTemplate:WikiProject RomaniaRomania Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Help Romania reach at least GA-status Help History of Romania get WP:GOOD Request an article or create a missing one Assess : Assess all articles tagged for this project that have not been assessed for quality Cleanup : Review the Romania-related cleanup listing Normalize the use of "Northern Bukovina" (capitalized) and "Northern Bessarabia" (Bessarabian part of Chernivtsi Oblast) all over Misplaced Pages Disambiguation : Disambiguate project articles and get points Expand : Expand Postage stamps and postal history of Romania Translate : Translate Romania-related articles from the Romanian Misplaced Pages Translate and keep in sync with the project versions in other languages: Projet:Roumanie (in French), Proiect:România (in Romanian), Проект:Румыния (in Russian) Unreferenced : * Add more reference to FC CFR Timișoara. Other : Make use in articles of the newly contributed images (about 5800!!) from the Wiki Loves Monuments Romania 2011 (WLM Romania external site) Review newly created Romania-related articles Check the articles needing expert attention or other work, and help with some of the items Create Awards for WikiProject Romania Contribute photos related to Romania at Commons:WikiProject Romania. Organize Romania related images on Commons. See also media-related tasks Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Slovakia Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Slovakia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Slovakia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SlovakiaWikipedia:WikiProject SlovakiaTemplate:WikiProject SlovakiaSlovakia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Sweden High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sweden, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sweden-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SwedenWikipedia:WikiProject SwedenTemplate:WikiProject SwedenSweden High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Switzerland High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Switzerland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Switzerland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SwitzerlandWikipedia:WikiProject SwitzerlandTemplate:WikiProject SwitzerlandSwitzerland High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ukraine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Topic clarity: it should not only be about Germanic language speakers?

This article seems to have been quietly split out of Germanic peoples, perhaps to avoid a debate there about how to cover early Germanic peoples who might not have spoken Germanic languages. However, the same problem has been transplanted to here. The article sometimes seems to be about Germanic peoples generally, such as the Istvaeones for example, but at other times it is written as if it is only about the people who spoke Germanic languages.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

This article was split from Germanic peoples after this debate. The articles cover distinct topics, and should be kept separate per WP:SIZESPLIT. Information about the culture of Celts, Balts, Slavs, Baltic Finns, Illyrians, Dacians and other peoples who lived in the vicinity of Germanic peoples are covered at their respective articles. There is neither need nor room for such content in this article. This is in accordance with our sources on early Germanic culture. Krakkos (talk) 10:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

The link you give to Germanic peoples is just to the talk page in general. So in which discussion, anywhere, was the creation of this offshoot article discussed?? Whether your concerns and ideas are agreed with or not, you have to, for your own sake and Misplaced Pages's start bringing them out of the shadows.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:53, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

The link has now been corrected. Krakkos (talk) 11:06, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

The discussion you linked to shows (1) no clear explanations from you about the actions you were taking or proposing (2) disagreement of other editors. So if anything it makes this look worse. I have created a talk page section about this article creation here. You should not have worked this way. Please learn to coordinate with other editors.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

To start with the lead, it needs to define what the topic covers, and explain any aspects which might be unclear or controversial or indeed not covered. Currently the article says it is about the same "people" as discussed in Germanic peoples, but that article is clearly about peoples with several different cultures and languages. For example the Goths were culturally Scythian. Looking through the article, some parts are about Norse people in medieval times, some about the first century peoples between Rhine and Vistula. It is as if the article is saying that all these peoples in all these periods shared one culture.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:51, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

this article is problematic?

This article, which split out of Germanic peoples, is now bigger than it. However for anyone familiar with the topic it reads like something from at least 50 years ago and now reflects a worldview which is arguably WP:FRINGE, and based on romanticist speculation and fantasy. Most of the sources are very old, and/or tertiary, and/or NOT focused upon the topic being discussed, but just cherry picked because something suited. (Several of these specially chosen sources are used for similar purposes on other related articles.) Some of the publication dates given are misleadingly recent, presumably reflecting a new printing or similar. Ideas about this topic have been controversial after WW2, and evolved quite a lot. I think anything from before about 1990 should be used only with caution. Playing devil's advocate maybe the best way to consider the future of this article is to start by asking if ANYTHING can be well-sourced for this topic, and building from there.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:19, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

If the existence of an early Germanic culture was a fringe theory, it is doubtful that Misplaced Pages would have had articles on Early Germanic law, Early Germanic warfare, Germanic paganism, Germanic mythology, Early Germanic calendar, Germanic kingship etc. There are scholars, such as Guy Halsall, who denies that there were such a thing, but as Halsall admitted in 2014, such as dismissal is "far from generally accepted or integrated in current study". As of 2018, The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity writes that the Germanic peoples were "distinct from other barbarians by their Germanic languages and civilization".

The subject of early Germanic culture is covered in detail in works such as:

• Murdoch, Brian; Read, Malcolm Kevin (2004). Early Germanic Literature and Culture. Boydell & Brewer. ISBN 157113199X. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |registration= and |subscription= (help)
• Green, D. H. (2004). Language and History in the Early Germanic World. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521794234. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |registration= and |subscription= (help)
• Schutz, Herbert (1983). The Prehistory of Germanic Europe. Yale University Press. ISBN 9780300028638. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |subscription= and |registration= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Todd, Malcolm (2004). The Early Germans. Wiley. ISBN 9781405117142. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |subscription= and |registration= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)

This article is indeed longer than necessary, and some of the sources are of questionable relevance or possibly outdated. These issues can be fixed through using the above-listed sources and trimming superfluous content. It is my intention to do this in the future when i have time. In the meantime, i recommend that you first clean up the mess you made at Germanic peoples before you embark on the similar mutilation of this article. Krakkos (talk) 15:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Indeed there are more articles on Misplaced Pages which need similar review, but we certainly can't cite them in order to justify this one. Just naming some books also means nothing unless they actually reflect something similar to the topic which has been written up here, obviously. But this article is in conflict with these and other works. OTOH, there is no reason this article should be based only on sources chosen by one Wikipedian, and this article MAY NOT ignore well-known controversies in the field - not in the lead and not in the body. So we may NOT block mention of Halsall, Goffart, Gillett, etc. We NEED to mention them. Concerning "mutilation", I can't look into your concerns unless you can learn to communicate your ideas in a constructive and clear way. Though of course what I suspect is that your ideas are known by you to be in conflict with Misplaced Pages policy. On the other hand, who says I need to do all the editing. If you believe you can structure this article according to appropriate 21st century sources and WP policy, then no one is stopping you.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Here are all the sentences currently in the lead with comments/concerns:

• Early Germanic culture refers to the culture of the early Germanic peoples. <2 things unclear: That article gives a few different possible definitions, so which is intended here? If the article is, as it seems, being limited to a certain period, then which period? How is "early" being defined here?>
• Largely derived from a synthesis of Proto-Indo-European and indigenous Northern European elements, the Germanic culture developed out of the Nordic Bronze Age. <This is a controversial statement being put into Misplaced Pages voice. I doubt any good specialist source published in the last 20 years makes such a simple statement?>
• It came under significant external influence during the Migration Period, particularly from ancient Rome. <This implies it was pure and uninfluenced before then, which is nonsense.>
• The Germanic peoples eventually overwhelmed the Western Roman Empire, which by the Middle Ages facilitated their conversion from paganism to Christianity and the abandonment of their tribal way of life. <The meaning of "tribal way of life" is unclear.>
• Certain traces of early Germanic culture have survived among the Germanic peoples up to the present day. <This is another controversial statement being put into Misplaced Pages voice. Again I doubt any good specialist source published in the last 20 years makes such a simple statement?>

I hope that someone can address such issues, starting with the lead, but also in the body of the article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:58, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class history articles
• Top-importance history articles
• WikiProject History articles
• C-Class Austria articles
• High-importance Austria articles
• All WikiProject Austria pages
• C-Class Belgium-related articles
• High-importance Belgium-related articles
• All WikiProject Belgium pages
• C-Class Czech Republic articles
• Mid-importance Czech Republic articles
• All WikiProject Czech Republic pages
• C-Class Denmark articles
• High-importance Denmark articles
• All WikiProject Denmark pages
• C-Class England-related articles
• High-importance England-related articles
• WikiProject England pages
• C-Class Ethnic groups articles
• High-importance Ethnic groups articles
• WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
• C-Class Faroe Islands articles
• High-importance Faroe Islands articles
• All WikiProject Faroe Islands pages
• C-Class Germany articles
• High-importance Germany articles
• WikiProject Germany articles
• C-Class Greenland articles
• High-importance Greenland articles
• WikiProject Greenland articles
• C-Class Hungary articles
• Mid-importance Hungary articles
• All WikiProject Hungary pages
• C-Class Iceland articles
• High-importance Iceland articles
• WikiProject Iceland articles
• C-Class European Microstates articles
• Unknown-importance European Microstates articles
• C-Class Liechtenstein articles
• High-importance Liechtenstein articles
• Liechtenstein articles
• WikiProject European Microstates articles
• C-Class Luxembourg articles
• High-importance Luxembourg articles
• WikiProject Luxembourg articles
• C-Class Moldova articles
• Mid-importance Moldova articles
• Moldova articles
• C-Class Netherlands articles
• All WikiProject Netherlands pages
• C-Class Norse history and culture articles
• Top-importance Norse history and culture articles
• C-Class Norway articles
• High-importance Norway articles
• WikiProject Norway articles
• C-Class Poland articles
• Mid-importance Poland articles
• WikiProject Poland articles
• C-Class Romania articles
• Mid-importance Romania articles
• All WikiProject Romania pages
• C-Class Slovakia articles
• Mid-importance Slovakia articles
• All WikiProject Slovakia pages
• C-Class Sweden articles
• High-importance Sweden articles
• All WikiProject Sweden pages
• C-Class Switzerland articles
• High-importance Switzerland articles
• All WikiProject Switzerland pages
• C-Class Ukraine articles
• Mid-importance Ukraine articles
• WikiProject Ukraine articles