Talk:Ezra Miller: Difference between revisions

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	::{{tq\|All that said, if Miller were simply bumped up a category level, out of male-gendered ones, the sky would not fall.}} Right, which I think ties into why ] says {{tq\|Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial}}: if a category is disputed there's often no harm in just leaving it off. ] (]) 02:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)		::{{tq\|All that said, if Miller were simply bumped up a category level, out of male-gendered ones, the sky would not fall.}} Right, which I think ties into why ] says {{tq\|Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial}}: if a category is disputed there's often no harm in just leaving it off. ] (]) 02:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
	:::I would like to see real-world evidence of controversy, though, not just "a couple of editors grinding axes" pseudo-controversy. WP has too much of that going on, and it looks more and more to me like decisions are being made on a basis of who can be loudest, who can besmirch the intentions of the other side more. (Not just on gender-related matters, but a large number of things.) My default response to any kind of ] on Misplaced Pages, about anything, is an expectation that a good case be proven why it is really necessary for the reader experience, why the encyclopedia will be worse if ] is not invoked in this particular case. I don't think the encyclopedia will be certainly improved by removing the category in this case, especially since the subject is personally noncommittal – socio-politically critical of labeling, yet accepting in-practice of being labeled (with a label that suits the basic birth-biology facts and our readers' general understanding of such matters). The "I barely identify as a human" bit also casts doubt on the seriousness with which the actor takes this stuff or expects to be taken seriously. And Miller is overwhelmingly (as far as I can tell, exclusively) known for male roles, which strongly affects our readers' perception and expectation. Miller is also quoted as saying, "The way I would choose to identify myself wouldn't be gay", which isn't something someone with no gender identity at all would likely say, since in most usage the term means "homosexual male" and even in broadened usage means "homosexual male or female", but is not used to mean "bisexual genderqueer". All this combined with the new rejection of even the term "queer" (despite using it in 2012) strongly suggests this playful weaving between and around any terminology is a form of "I'm so mysterious" theatre or simply a creative way of maintaining some privacy in the face of nosy press and fan questions. Avoiding being publicly labeled with a gender or sexual identity doesn't demonstrate that none exists, or is a particular combination like intergender and bi, just that the public presentation is intentionally vague.<p>In the end, it seems fine to run with singular ''they'' (and use of the surname in lieu of pronouns), to match the most recently stated preferences, to the extent they aren't self-contradictory and can be separated from silly stuff like "barely identify as a human". But concluding that Miller cannot be put in any male categories is a PoV+OR position, based on taking half of what they say about pronouns and ignoring the other half, and ignoring the person's consistent general presentation as masculine (and mostly on the het side of the Kinsey scale at that). It thus would not serve our readers well. <small>(Though getting rid of most gendered categories would in my view be better in the longer run. It doesn't matter whether an actor, doctor, etc., has ovaries or has testicles, or presents as masculine or as feminine. The intersection of those things with an occupation or other notability determinant isn't really a defining characteristic in its own right, despite the pretense of some "gender-centric" editors to the contrary.)</small> <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 23:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)</p>		:::I would like to see real-world evidence of controversy, though, not just "a couple of editors grinding axes" pseudo-controversy. WP has too much of that going on, and it looks more and more to me like decisions are being made on a basis of who can be loudest, who can besmirch the intentions of the other side more. (Not just on gender-related matters, but a large number of things.) My default response to any kind of ] on Misplaced Pages, about anything, is an expectation that a good case be proven why it is really necessary for the reader experience, why the encyclopedia will be worse if ] is not invoked in this particular case. I don't think the encyclopedia will be certainly improved by removing the category in this case, especially since the subject is personally noncommittal – socio-politically critical of labeling, yet accepting in-practice of being labeled (with a label that suits the basic birth-biology facts and our readers' general understanding of such matters). The "I barely identify as a human" bit also casts doubt on the seriousness with which the actor takes this stuff or expects to be taken seriously. And Miller is overwhelmingly (as far as I can tell, exclusively) known for male roles, which strongly affects our readers' perception and expectation. Miller is also quoted as saying, "The way I would choose to identify myself wouldn't be gay", which isn't something someone with no gender identity at all would likely say, since in most usage the term means "homosexual male" and even in broadened usage means "homosexual male or female", but is not used to mean "bisexual genderqueer". All this combined with the new rejection of even the term "queer" (despite using it in 2012) strongly suggests this playful weaving between and around any terminology is a form of "I'm so mysterious" theatre or simply a creative way of maintaining some privacy in the face of nosy press and fan questions. Avoiding being publicly labeled with a gender or sexual identity doesn't demonstrate that none exists, or is a particular combination like intergender and bi, just that the public presentation is intentionally vague.<p>In the end, it seems fine to run with singular ''they'' (and use of the surname in lieu of pronouns), to match the most recently stated preferences, to the extent they aren't self-contradictory and can be separated from silly stuff like "barely identify as a human". But concluding that Miller cannot be put in any male categories is a PoV+OR position, based on taking half of what they say about pronouns and ignoring the other half, and ignoring the person's consistent general presentation as masculine (and mostly on the het side of the Kinsey scale at that). It thus would not serve our readers well. <small>(Though getting rid of most gendered categories would in my view be better in the longer run. It doesn't matter whether an actor, doctor, etc., has ovaries or has testicles, or presents as masculine or as feminine. The intersection of those things with an occupation or other notability determinant isn't really a defining characteristic in its own right, despite the pretense of some "gender-centric" editors to the contrary.)</small> <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 23:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)</p>
			::::What you are proposing here – referring to the subject with non-gendered pronouns in the article body but then placing them in gendered categories – is odd. It is not something we do at other articles where we use they/them pronouns.
			::::Whether Miller's gender presentation is typically masculine is not relevant (and, if it was, which it isn't, I would not call, say, masculine.)
			::::(As for the idea of getting rid of gendered categories altogether, well, why stop there? I was chatting with an arb recently who thinks that the entire category system is a waste of time and should be eliminated!) ] (]) 05:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

	== Ezra Miller is not Jewish ==		== Ezra Miller is not Jewish ==

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Pronoun

Miller is gender queer, their pronoun cannot be strictly male, it should be either s/he and hir, zie and hir or they and their. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.7.90 (talk) 11:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck with that. Zweifel (talk) 05:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Miller has stated that that he has no pronoun preference and is fine with he/him/his. (source)--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 07:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm looking at this edit war going on over the pronouns and am LMAOing over here. Remember that none of you are being paid for this sh1t. 100.38.27.113 (talk) 08:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Since the subject doesn't have a preference, I would suggest we look at WP:GENDER which reminds us not to use pronouns that confuse the reader. For simplicity's sake, the article should use the biological pronoun. Ifnord (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

The concept that other pronouns would confuse the reader inherently is based in the idea that the world is and should remain cisnormative, which is.... ignorant? And incorrect. They/them pronouns exist, and if it was wikipedia's job not to be confusing no human being would ever be educated by it. Let's link to the Misplaced Pages page for "nonbinary" or "genderqueer" on the first instance of a they/them pronoun if we must, but prefering he/him BECAUSE it is "the biological pronoun" - even if it is one of many Miller uses - is inherently transphobic. The effort is to erase an identity that might be confusing, which can never be separated from transphobia. As a side note, I got an edit war warning for changing the pronouns - and I see now that the pronouns have been changed back, which strikes me as identical "edit war behavior." (Yes, signed as an IP edit, but that's not for lack of Misplaced Pages experience - can't find login info for my account.) 2605:E000:2EC8:CD00:2121:EB60:1CE5:C32D (talk) 11:08, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Which ever pronoun you choose, it can never be "it" in reference to a human being. Due to Miller's stated gender identity in interviews, "they" is the correct referential pronoun. This is established usage with centuries of history, and there is no reason to keep changing this article to fit your political views. 84.48.192.105 (talk) 21:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

If Miller is fine with 'he', why is it so controversial? Steepleman (t) 04:36, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

it may set a precedent, not an expert on how editing rules work on wikipedia but it's a rather dangerous precedent to set. Also, Ezra themselves seems to use pronouns interchangeably. Another reason to use a pronoun such as 'they', IMO (which is the current universally accepted method of talking about a person whose gender cannot or may not be specified) is to get people used to the idea of singular they (which has literally been a thing in english for over 400 years). Tjphysicist (talk) 19:48, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Photograph

With Ezra Miller now playing the Flash and so now an actor of increasing interest to children, I advise that his main photograph be changed to include one that does not feature smoking. I am not opposed to smoking, but it seems that there should be so many pictures available of Miller that it is not prudent to choose one that does involve smoking for such a prominent place in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.188.112 (talk) 19:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate the photograph was changed accordingly, but shouldn't we maybe update it with one from 2016, at least? There are some good photos of Miller from the 'Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice' European premier, such as this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurochrome (talk • contribs) 23:08, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Activism

Ezra is twice referred to as an activist but I don't see any material that amplifies those assertions. Docdave (talk) 03:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Opera singer

As far as I can see, Miller sang as a young child occasionally in an opera chorus. I don't see how that makes 3 opera-related categories a defining feature of his career, and they ought to be removed, especially the utterly inapplicable Category:People associated with the Metropolitan Opera. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

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Playboy interview

Can someone please ad something about his playboy interview? I am personally horrible at writings this stuff but it at least seems very relevant193.33.246.241 (talk) 11:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Gender-neutral pronouns

A couple of IP editors have been changing the page today, replacing male singular pronouns (he, him, his) with gender-neutral plural ones (they, their, them). I don't disagree with the intentions behind this, but I'm not sure that it's in-line with WP:MOS guidelines, and it makes the article awkward to read - how should verbs following the pronoun be treated? Since we don't seem to have any guidance on this at the moment, I'm going to start a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style so we can get consensus on how to proceed. Please don't continue with these changes until that discussion has taken place. GirthSummit _(blether) 19:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

See archived discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 198#Singular they. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

There is a correct grammatical answer to that question: verbs following the singular they/them are conjugated exactly as you would for a plural they/them. This phenomenon is similar to the words "everyone" and "everybody" being treated as singular when interacting with verbs. A few good examples are shown in the Misplaced Pages article on the Singular they. 2605:E000:2EC8:CD00:2121:EB60:1CE5:C32D (talk) 11:35, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Coming from the Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral pronouns: guidance discussion (a permalink here), I will note here as well that the Associated Press states, "They/them/their is acceptable in limited cases as a singular and-or gender-neutral pronoun, when alternative wording is overly awkward or clumsy. However, rewording usually is possible and always is preferable." It also states, "In stories about people who identify as neither male nor female or ask not to be referred to as he/she/him/her: Use the person's name in place of a pronoun, or otherwise reword the sentence, whenever possible. If they/them/their use is essential, explain in the text that the person prefers a gender-neutral pronoun. Be sure that the phrasing does not imply more than one person." I'll contact WP:Film about weighing in on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID seems to apply. If 'they' is to be used, I suggest pronouns aren't used in the text until the reason why has been explained, which should be early in the lead. William Avery (talk) 07:39, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

William Avery, as seen above, I suggested similarly. With this edit, I changed the few singular they usages to the surname Miller. If we are to use singular they in this article, it needs to be made clear in the lead and/or with a hatnote that Miller is non-binary and so the pronoun usage is non-standard. But we should still avoid the singular they usage unless necessary. I don't see that Miller even regularly uses singular they for their gender identity. As seen in the Personal life section, Miller uses all pronouns interchangeably. We obviously are not going to use all pronouns interchangeably in this article, as to not confuse readers and have an inconsistent article in terms of pronoun usage. More discussion on this is seen at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#Meanwhile, back on earth ... (a permalink for it is here). SMcCandlish has dealt with this type of thing at articles for non-binary people and might have thoughts on what to do in this case, such whether or not to use a hatnote. At articles for non-binary people, we should also keep in mind that a non-binary person may not use gender-neutral pronouns. Ruby Rose for, example, identifies as genderfluid, but still uses feminine pronouns. We had people jumping to use singular they for her without knowing her pronoun preference (and some seemingly did so even while knowing it). If the non-binary person hasn't expressed a pronoun preference, it might be best to go by the pronouns that the preponderance of reliable sources are using for that person. Although Miley Cyrus has identified as genderfluid, her Misplaced Pages article still uses feminine pronouns. This seems to be due to the fact that Cyrus didn't specify a pronoun preference and the preponderance of reliable sources still refer to her as a she. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I would just repeat here what I already said at WT:MOS#Gender-neutral pronouns: guidance. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:08, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I think that may help calm things down. Perhaps one day I'll understand why people get so worked up about this stuff. William Avery (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

William Avery, it's just a matter of people not being used to someone using singular they as their pronoun preference and its ability to cause confusion. 192.182.205.156 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been changing some parts of the article away from singular they to "he," stating that Miller has stated that he uses masculine pronouns. That's something that needs to be sourced in the article then, similar to the Ruby Rose case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

CountessCobra, regarding this, I'm not sure that Miller identifying as genderfluid means that Miller should no longer be in male categories. See what is stated above. The Misplaced Pages article says Miller uses masculine and feminine pronouns interchangeably. And last time I checked, most reliable sources still refer to Miller with masculine pronouns and identify Miller as male. Has this changed? No need to ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Deanboier, see above. Regarding this, this and this, I reverted you, tweaked pieces, and re-added the "they/them pronouns" aspect in a different way because Miller using "they/them pronouns" doesn't mean that Miller never uses masculine pronouns. In this GQ source you added, Miller still doesn't state a preference for pronouns. The Personal life section clearly notes that Miller has used all pronouns interchangeably. We don't know if Miller still does that. It could be that Miller uses "all pronouns interchangeably" sometimes and uses only "they/them pronouns" at other times. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Re: categories: MOS:GENDERID says Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources and this presumably extends to categories. The latest article that deals with Miller's gender self identification is this one from a couple days ago, which says Miller uses they/them pronouns in a pointed refusal to be gendered. I'll repeat that last part for emphasis: refusal to be gendered. Calling Miller "male" therefore seems to contradict their self-identification and so goes against our guidelines. WanderingWanda (talk) 21:54, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Re: categories: To repeat for those unfamiliar with MOS:GENDERID, MOS:GENDERID does not apply to categories, just like it doesn't apply to article titles. And when I reverted CountessCobra on the male categories, there was no "pointed refusal to be gendered" source. That revert was back on September 18, 2019. Miller has been clear about using masculine and feminine pronouns interchangeably. At the time I reverted, there were sources such as this November 16, 2018 Billboard.com source (which refers to Miller as "he") stating that Miller "is comfortable with all the pronouns" and this November 19, 2018 The Guardian source stating "Not to mention the fact that Miller accepts male pronouns and is clearly male-presenting." So there was no violation of anything when I reverted CountessCobra. And, of course, editors will interpret the "pointed refusal to be gendered" source how they want to. But to repeat, "The Personal life section clearly notes that Miller has used all pronouns interchangeably. We don't know if Miller still does that. It could be that Miller uses 'all pronouns interchangeably' sometimes and uses only 'they/them pronouns' at other times." Miller would not be the first non-binary person to do that. Whether jokingly or not, Miller has also stated, "I barely identify as a human." Girth Summit, any thoughts on this latest development? Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:48, 16 March 2020 (UTC) Updated post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:01, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen, not really. My original post on this thread is from a time when I was only dimly aware that gender-neutral pronouns were a thing, I came across the article while RC patrolling and haven't been following the subject's statements of their gender identity. I don't think there's any suggestion that your revert from last year was in any way inappropriate. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:34, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit and William Avery, as seen by this January 15, 2020 Variety source and this February 3, 2020 Deadline Hollywood source, sources still refer to Miller as "he", "him" and "his." Except for the latest GQ source, I haven't seen sources use singular they to refer to Miller. If any others do, they are scarce. This is no doubt because Miller previously stated things such as "I let he/his/him ride, and that's fine." And that was stated in November 2018. And no sources refer to Miller by feminine pronouns; no sources that I've seen. We'll see if any sources start to use singular they following the latest GQ source stating "pointed refusal to be gendered." But I doubt that they will since Miller has not made a statement shunning masculine pronouns and "non-binary" is already considered to be a "pointed refusal to be gendered." It's just that, as mentioned above, when someone identifies as non-binary, people (and sources sometimes as well) automatically assume that the person prefers they/them pronouns or completely shuns ever using a gendered pronoun for their gender identity. We'll see what, if anything, Miller states in the future on the matter. But people can get tired of reaffirming their gender identity or other thoughts on their gender. If sources continue to refer to Miller by masculine pronouns, a case can be made that the article can as well and that Miller can be placed back into male categories. After all, if Miller has an issue with these media outlets using the masculine pronouns, Miller will let them know. So far, Miller's explicit commentary on masculine pronouns is relayed as "is comfortable with all the pronouns" and "I let he/his/him ride, and that's fine." The matter might need an RfC if sources continue to refer to Miller by masculine pronouns and the only thing used to argue that we shouldn't do the same is a source stating "pointed refusal to be gendered." Of course, if Miller reaffirms allowance of masculine pronouns, there will be nothing to debate.

The latest GQ source also states that queer is "a label that Miller eschews, as even 'queer' is a label to them", despite the fact that Miller came out as queer in 2012, is still routinely called queer, and the source itself notes that "many have called Miller a 'queer icon'." So I added a bit on this to the article (followup edit here). Still, since the latest gender comments are not in Miller's own words, I think it's best to err on the side of caution. Just a few months ago, overzealous sources (because of overzealous social media) got it wrong on Billy Dee Williams's gender identity, and Misplaced Pages debated the matter as a result. If Williams's initial comment hadn't gotten so much attention to the point where he had to clarify, his Misplaced Pages article would still be calling him genderfluid or implying that he is.

As for "don't think there's any suggestion that your revert from last year was in any way inappropriate", I disagree, Girth. But, for reasons you and others are aware of, I'm not commenting any further on that. Please don't ping me if you reply; I'm watching this article. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit is correct that I was not commenting on your reversion from last year, but merely on how the article should be categorized at the present time. WanderingWanda (talk) 23:51, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID on pronouns really doesn't have much to do with categorization. Miller is rejecting all labels of all kinds, which is different from asserting a particular gender identity (including a nonbinary one). WP isn't required to strip Miller of every categorization (i.e., every label) simply because Miller doesn't like labels. This really is a distinct matter, and can't be simply thrown into a "gender identity" pot. Perhaps more to the point, though, Miller's dislike of labels isn't extreme; cf. the material above: "comfortable with all the pronouns" and "I let he/his/him ride, and that's fine." We should follow the sources on this, as in everything. Even the WP:ABOUTSELF/MOS:GENDERID angle doesn't support removing Miller from male categories, not at this stage, not by the content of the subject's own statements. Maybe revisit this in a year or two and see how the reputable mainstream media are writing about Miller. If they are not going out of their way to avoid "masculizing" Miller in any possible way ever, then WP shouldn't either. All that said, if Miller were simply bumped up a category level, out of male-gendered ones, the sky would not fall. And stuff like this is a good illustration why we shouldn't have gendered categories at all. Many of us have been saying this for over a decade now, but there's still a contingent (a loud one but probably not as large as they think they are) convinced the wiki-sky really will fall if we don't separate male nurses, female pool players, etc. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

All that said, if Miller were simply bumped up a category level, out of male-gendered ones, the sky would not fall. Right, which I think ties into why WP:CATV says Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial: if a category is disputed there's often no harm in just leaving it off. WanderingWanda (talk) 02:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

I would like to see real-world evidence of controversy, though, not just "a couple of editors grinding axes" pseudo-controversy. WP has too much of that going on, and it looks more and more to me like decisions are being made on a basis of who can be loudest, who can besmirch the intentions of the other side more. (Not just on gender-related matters, but a large number of things.) My default response to any kind of special pleading on Misplaced Pages, about anything, is an expectation that a good case be proven why it is really necessary for the reader experience, why the encyclopedia will be worse if WP:IAR is not invoked in this particular case. I don't think the encyclopedia will be certainly improved by removing the category in this case, especially since the subject is personally noncommittal – socio-politically critical of labeling, yet accepting in-practice of being labeled (with a label that suits the basic birth-biology facts and our readers' general understanding of such matters). The "I barely identify as a human" bit also casts doubt on the seriousness with which the actor takes this stuff or expects to be taken seriously. And Miller is overwhelmingly (as far as I can tell, exclusively) known for male roles, which strongly affects our readers' perception and expectation. Miller is also quoted as saying, "The way I would choose to identify myself wouldn't be gay", which isn't something someone with no gender identity at all would likely say, since in most usage the term means "homosexual male" and even in broadened usage means "homosexual male or female", but is not used to mean "bisexual genderqueer". All this combined with the new rejection of even the term "queer" (despite using it in 2012) strongly suggests this playful weaving between and around any terminology is a form of "I'm so mysterious" theatre or simply a creative way of maintaining some privacy in the face of nosy press and fan questions. Avoiding being publicly labeled with a gender or sexual identity doesn't demonstrate that none exists, or is a particular combination like intergender and bi, just that the public presentation is intentionally vague.

In the end, it seems fine to run with singular they (and use of the surname in lieu of pronouns), to match the most recently stated preferences, to the extent they aren't self-contradictory and can be separated from silly stuff like "barely identify as a human". But concluding that Miller cannot be put in any male categories is a PoV+OR position, based on taking half of what they say about pronouns and ignoring the other half, and ignoring the person's consistent general presentation as masculine (and mostly on the het side of the Kinsey scale at that). It thus would not serve our readers well. (Though getting rid of most gendered categories would in my view be better in the longer run. It doesn't matter whether an actor, doctor, etc., has ovaries or has testicles, or presents as masculine or as feminine. The intersection of those things with an occupation or other notability determinant isn't really a defining characteristic in its own right, despite the pretense of some "gender-centric" editors to the contrary.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

What you are proposing here – referring to the subject with non-gendered pronouns in the article body but then placing them in gendered categories – is odd. It is not something we do at other articles where we use they/them pronouns.

Whether Miller's gender presentation is typically masculine is not relevant (and, if it was, which it isn't, I would not call, say, this outfit masculine.)

(As for the idea of getting rid of gendered categories altogether, well, why stop there? I was chatting with an arb recently who thinks that the entire category system is a waste of time and should be eliminated!) WanderingWanda (talk) 05:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Ezra Miller is not Jewish

Just because he "feels" Jewish that doesn't mean he is a Jew. The Code of Jewish Law clearly states that a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of the father’s lineage (or whatever else may show up in a DNA test), while the child of a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish.Мишкин (talk) 08:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Who cares what the "Code of Jewish Law" says. He does not need permission to self identify with his Jewish heritage from his father's side. --Gonnym (talk) 19:45, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The reference specifically quotes him referring to the traditional definition and how it dates from a time before DNA tests etc so mothers would be the only certain parent. Perhaps add a bit more from the quote to the main text for those who might take issue with him identifying with his paternal ancestry. CallyMc (talk) 21:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

This is a thorny question! Firstly, I am not sure that "self-identification" of ethnicity is an accepted thing: see Rachel Dolezal. With that question set aside for now, let's look at Who is a Jew? Yes, this is really a Misplaced Pages article. Since the Jewish religion predates the separation of national identity from religious belief, it is much like Hinduism, where there is no clear delineation where a person can say "this is how I understand God" vs. "this is how I view my national / cultural identity". Now, it would seem that on Misplaced Pages, we maintain a distinction between "Jews" and those who do not self-identify as Jewish, yet they carry some Semitic DNA. In Category:Jews, the description says, "This category is for individuals who are Jews. For people of Jewish descent who don't identify as Jews, please see Category:People of Jewish descent.". So I would say, that giving Miller the benefit of the doubt, we can safely include him in all applicable categories, because he does identify as a Jew and he is also of Jewish descent. I think restricting this to matrilineal descent is a red herring due to the variance even among Jews for that criterion. 2600:8800:1880:188:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

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