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User:Dudedontworry

Dudedontworry (talk · contribs) is creating a large number of articles about pianists, originally copyvios which have been deleted and replaced by one-paragraph stubs which rarely claim notability, and then don't prove it. No reliable sources are cited. All seem to have been the former students of Heather Slade-Lipkin, who might be notable if there were reliable sources who said so. I think that without reliable sources, most of these articles need to be removed. Opinions? User:Zoe|(talk) 20:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Anybody? If this isn't addressed, I'm just going to start speedying all of these articles. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

He's down to one-sentence stubs. At least he quit posting copyvios.... I can't tell whether he's a well-meaning but confused fan, or whether he's involved with publicity for this group of musicians. Sigh. FreplySpang 18:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Uh...

Just a guess, but this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this probably should be deleted.

I am a reliable source

Grow up Zoe. I am an academic researcher. My sources are excellent, in that they come directly from the musicians. I am the source. All information is researched by me. If you think that information can only be reliable, if it has been published elsewhere than on wikipedia, then you are insane. If that were true, then original advice a qualified lawyer provides on law would be regarded as no good, simply because he hasn't published his knowledge in a book somewhere other than wikipedia first. Equally, your attitude would also regard all previously unpublished research on AIDS/HIV as no good, simply because it hasn't yet been published by other publishers. That attitude is lunacy. Facts are facts. Research is Research, even if it is to date unpublished, my research is still valid and reliable. Misplaced Pages will never get anywhere if you continue to harass individuals, just because they know something that YOU do not.

Dudedontworry 05:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Zoe"

Contributing to Misplaced Pages is Futile

In contrast to Misplaced Pages, regular publishers are happy to publish original contributions or research, and it is also normal to be allowed to quote other sources already in existence. Given that Misplaced Pages neither appears happy to publish original research, nor information quoted (and referenced/sourced) from elsewhere, and the extraordinary negativity of many of its administrators, who appear to enjoy berating contributing individuals for their contributions to Misplaced Pages, and yet also appear to assume that it is my full time activity, when in fact I am busy with my own 'real' life of academic research, and only contribute as and when time allows, the conclusion that contributing to Misplaced Pages is a futile exercise, looms large. If this is how Misplaced Pages wishes to treat contributors, then Misplaced Pages's future is in doubt. I for one am appalled at User/Zoe's attitude towards my contributions, and feel deeply offended by User/Zoe's threats to block me from contributing/editing, it is not I who vandalises, it is User/Zoe (et al) who came along and vandalised many hours of my efforts to contribute in many fell swoops, repeatedly. It appears some are quick to criticise, and eager to delete the work of others, with scant regard for the time and effort that was freely given. If this continues, I will delete everything I have contributed myself, and publish elsewhere with publishers who respect the fact I am a reliable source, and where there is commercial remuneration for my work.

Dudedontworry 05:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Laughing_Man"

If we didn't have rules about original research, Misplaced Pages would be full of all sorts of nonsense. We are an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original content. It is not our task to verify what is notable and what is accurate from contributors of original research. If you want to contribute here, follow the policies that have developed over time for good reasons. All of us, including admins have to follow those same policies. You are invited to contribute here, but sorry, you can't do so under your own set of rules. Cheers, NoSeptember 05:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

{{db-author}}

Dudedontworry 16:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Laughing Man: thank you for your assistance (please ensure all my contributions are deleted, and my user accoung/page)

Laughing Man is only person at Misplaced Pages who seems to talk any sense. I thank him for his suggestions and aid. I would be grateful if you could ensure (as you know I am trying to do) that all articles that I wrote and contributed, are deleted from Misplaced Pages, and that my user account is also deleted. Misplaced Pages's contribution rules are just too lunatic, for an academic researcher such as myself, who is used to being able to publish his findings. I am used to having my original academic research papers received with gratitude, warmth and delight.

I am not used to a publisher suggesting that I am not a reliable source. It appears that User:Zoe does not understand the concept of original research being reliable, and if User:Zoe were in charge of all the publishers in the world, humanity's recorded knowledge would never have accumulated, as User:Zoe wouldn't even accept the first caveman to discover how to make fire as a reliable source, never mind a Phd Academic Researcher's reliablity as a source of original research.

It is therefore serendipitous that professional publishers do understand that an academic researcher such as myself is a very reliable source. Adieu.

This page may meet Misplaced Pages’s criteria for speedy deletion. The given reason is: This page was mistakenly created, no one other than its original author has made substantial edits, and he or she requests its deletion or has blanked the page. (CSD G7). If this page does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, please remove this notice. Administrators, remember to check what links here, the page history (last edit), the page log, and any revisions of CSD before deletion.

Dudedontworry 16:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Laughing_Man"

may want to look at WP:OWN--Hu12 16:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"I am used to having my original academic research papers received with gratitude, warmth and delight." What academic institution are YOU working at? :) A Train 17:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

We are an encyclopedia, not an academic journal. Journals publish original research, encyclopedias don't. It's that simple. See WP:NOR. —bbatsell ¿? 17:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought--Hu12 17:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have repeatedly pointed Dudedontworry to our guidelines at WP:RS and WP:V, but he has either steadfastly failed to read them, or has decided they don't apply to him. I think he's been given enough time to create content the same as everybody else on Misplaced Pages, and if he feels above us, I am sure there are other places that are more than willing to take anything people claim without documentation. MySpace comes to mind. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Giano on the radio!

I have been contacted by a producer with a public radio show called Weekend America. Who is looking into a story about the ArbCom elections and was wondering if I might have a few minutes to talk about my experience in Misplaced Pages. Tempted and amusing as that might be, I have strong feelings on blabbing to the media and those that do it, but does Misplaced Pages have a policy on this? I'm sure I am not the only obe to be singled out Giano 07:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know whether Misplaced Pages has a policy already, but I don't see the harm in it and I think that openness can only benefit us. If there's media interest in the ArbCom elections, the best course of action is to be honest and forthcoming, and do what we can to ensure that the coverage is fair. Clamming up makes it more likely that it won't be. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Curious. Giano, did the producer explain how they came to select you? (→Netscott) 07:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, why not me? I actually LISTEN to the show! In any case, go for it. --Calton | Talk 08:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Since we have some suffrage for the arbcom voting, I do not see the problem. I would be worried if an AfD or RfA advertised in the big media Alex Bakharev 08:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I've no idea why they chose me, cos I'm more horrible than you I expect! Is it real station then, I though it may be a hoax? Anyhow, I have enough experience of these things to know than a "nice happy story is no story" They want my "experience of Misplaced Pages" but I expect it will be all about Kelly Martin's arbcom result and behaviour etc, and the "Giano case" Neither of which are Misplaced Pages's finest moments. They are hardly going to want to discuss Palladian architecture are they? (Which is what I like talking about) No I shall leave it to others - interesting to see who though! Anyway they want me to phone them, and I'm certainly not spending megabucks on transatlantic phone calls. You lot would never understand my vowels anyway. I'll forward their email to Jimbo and he can tell them how marvellous the place is - especially the architecture section etc etc etc. Giano 08:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Tell them to phone "the co-founder, Jimmy Wales". That should give them a story... yandman 08:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Neille i (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been asking arbcom candidates on-wiki to beinterviewed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not an arbcom candidate - heaven forbid, so I can't immagine what they want to know Giano 09:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• I have no qualms about giving interviews to the media. See for example , I was picked because of this I believe. Sure, go for it, and be honest in your answers. :-) Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That is hilarious! Jimbo recreated it two minutes later, with a rather endearing edit summary: . Are you saying doing the interview was a form of punishment? :-) Carcharoth 13:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That had me laughing out loud for a moment :-) --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a real radio show, at least. If the story comes off it will probably be available on podcast, too. . Thatcher131 12:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The only concern is whether you know the questions in advance or not. I've into this before w/ David Gerard and pshapiro and that's why i am bringing this concern here. There may be tricky questions waiting for you Giano. Is it possible to check if you can get those questions in advance? -- Szvest 12:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Giano, I say go for it, I'm sure they'll call you for the actual interview. And yes, tell them about the architecture and how the articles are getting written. If they try to focus on the drama, just tell them that Misplaced Pages's internals being more transparent than their company's doesn't mean that we have to discuss our dirty laundry with outside players any more than they do. Zocky | picture popups 16:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• No, They would almost certainly want the drama, not the architecture. I shall not be commenting. Eeverything I do is above board and onwiki, that way others have their chance to comment legitimately and a right of redress. It is not my style to talk about others only when I know I am safe from reproach. If asked about certain subjects I would have a problem maintaining my usual kind disposition especially as the "IRCadmin" gang are now travelling on tour in a charabang hectoring voters at . I'm not sure why they are called "elections". On Misplaced Pages they always seem more akin to those in dodgy countries, where one cast one's vote at one's peril. Giano 08:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I would have a problem maintaining my usual kind disposition especially as the "IRCadmin" gang are now travelling on tour in a charabang hectoring voters ... ah, classic Giano. It never gets old. Never. --Cyde Weys 21:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• No, and it never will so long as we have "Bonnie and Cyde" to point out the error of out votes and ways. Giano 08:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Username issue?

User:Supervisor Wiki posted a comment on a user's page purporting to be from "tech support." The user, User:Jjohnson 55, seems to be having some attack issues on his page, too. (well to be honest, I've got *no* idea what's going on there, so someone may want to investigate further.) Tony Fox (arf!) 23:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That's fascinating. I believe User:Supervisor Wiki and User:209.81.119.178 are sockpuppets (or perhaps meatpuppets) of User: Russian F, who was harassing User:Jjohnson 55 by replacing his userpage with different pictures of animals. Somehow, User:Bainer 21 is mixed up with all this, too. I'd suggest a short-term block on all except Jjohnson, but I'm not sure. I see that User:Supervisor Wiki has been indefblocked for a bad username, which is appropriate. Argyriou (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have idefblocked User:Bainer 21 - this is a single purpose attack acount. Alex Bakharev 23:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

and User:209.81.119.178 and User: Russian F for 48h Alex Bakharev 00:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone's back as User:Support.Tech. And now I'm not so sure that User:Jjohnson 55 is an entirely innocent victim in all this. Argyriou (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Class assignment to edit Misplaced Pages

Just wanted to give a heads up about this. A friend of mine considering taking the class brought it to my attention. The assignment is for everyone in the class to make an edit and then to write a paper about it. Incidentally, the teacher suggests people edit List of Oregon State University people, an article I created, so I will of course be keeping an eye out for it but it may be nice to have a few extra pairs of eyes on it just in case someone decides to make an "unhelpful" edit, or even give a few friendly tips to new contributors. VegaDark 10:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, at least they're not being told to write an article on the school (in true press-release style), which is what usually happens. yandman 11:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately it doesn't tell people not to create vanity articles. MER-C 11:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it could have linked to WP:NOT, but I still think the overall net effect of this will be positive rather than negative. Who in the hell would vandalize Misplaced Pages and write a paper about it? Sounds like a guaranteed F. --Cyde Weys 20:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If they would summarize the what they felt was hard, etc., and send it to us, it might be even more helpful. Rmhermen 21:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Well, this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Misplaced Pages:School and university projects has all the gory details... Titoxd 21:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
• The assignment looked to me to be pretty positive. Emphasis on making a contribution, fixing something up, that sort of thing. Plus you get marks for it, so there's an incentive to do a really good job. It gives examples of the kinds of things, and tells them to look around first. Where's the problem? They get more background before editing than the average newbie, I'd say. Guy (Help!) 21:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I expect it in general to be good edits. However I can forsee people adding people to the list that aren't notable enough, unsourced redlinks, etc. that will have to be reverted not as vandalism but simply as stuff we can't accept as is. I don't anticipate much if any vandalism, but it's still helpful to be aware of this, even if only to give welcoming messages to all the people. VegaDark 01:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I just hope Read the policies is amongst the homework. HighInBC 01:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you follow the first link, it will take you to the actual homework assignemnt. I agree with Cyde, this looks like a well organized assignement. Let's add it to the list of known school projects and move on. Johntex\ 02:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is interesting to note that the professor, who is probably non-notable, has his own entry. Prodego 01:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Nearly all of the contributions to Timothy Budd were made by Mr. Budd himself as an IP user. 128.193.38.234 (talk · contribs) - the IP resolves to budd.eecs.oregonstate.edu –  Anþony  talk  01:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm deleting it. An associate professor is rarely notable due to lack of published research and peer reviewed works. Article definitely assert any major notability. Sasquatch t|c 04:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:PROF, admittedly a proposed guideline, says that a professor is notable if they've written a textbook that has been used in a college-level course not related to the professor. The guy's written several textbooks, at least one of which I can confirm has been used at my university, unrelated to him. He's also published several journal articles. He may be a borderline case for notability, but deleting it out of hand I think is a bit premature. It should go to AfD at least. –  Anþony  talk  06:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Why the out-of-process deletion? What was so urgent it couldn't be listed on AfD? —Doug Bell  06:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Why "out-of-process"? Non-notable biographies are speedy deleted on a regular basis. Have you read WP:CSD? User:Zoe|(talk) 16:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Have you? "If the assertion is controversial or there has been a previous AfD, the article should be nominated for AfD instead." Agree that the deletion was unnecessary at this point and AFD would be better. – Chacor 16:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Just restore and AfD it, it can't hurt, though it very well may be deleted anyway. Prodego 20:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with restore and AfD, notability was claimed and shouldn't have been speedied. VegaDark 21:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The assertion wasn't controversial until Doug Bell made it such, and there was no previous AfD. How does it therefore fail to be a speedy deletion? User:Zoe|(talk) 23:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Because the article did assert the importance or significance of its subject by saying he was the author of several college textbooks. Unless you don't think being the author of several textbooks is a claim to notability? VegaDark 01:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really. If there had been some indication as to how many of the books have been purchased or how wide-spread they have been used, then that could have been judged as to notability. If they're only used in courses he teaches, then it's little more than self-publishing, and anybody who gets their books published at a vanity press then couldn't be speedied. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Technically true, the idea to delete it was good, but it should go through AfD if it make's a claim of notability. HighInBC 02:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Spam surveys on talk pages

• Sharlene Thompson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Spamming surveys on talk pages, 16+ so far..

Example:

Health Wiki Research

A colleague and I are conducting a study on health wikis. We are looking at how wikis co-construct health information and create communities. We noticed that you are a frequent contributor to Misplaced Pages on health topics.

Please consider taking our survey here.

This research will help wikipedia and other wikis understand how health information is co-created and used.

We are from James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia. The project was approved by our university research committee and members of the Misplaced Pages Foundation.

Thanks,

--Sharlene Thompson 19:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks, --Hu12 20:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone should give her a phone call (number on link provided) and find out if it's legit... ---J.S 20:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

In particular, we should ask what members of the Foundation approved and then confirm. If it was explicitly approved by the Foundation, I personally have no problem with it. —bbatsell ¿? 20:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

OTRS ticket #2006073110013565 - Corey A. Hickerson, an assistant professor with JMU, wrote asking if he and Sharlene Thompson could conduct this research, and a member of the Communications Committee approved their request. Raul654 20:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummm ok then. ---J.S 21:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the unwanted messages. I've made a request to the OTRS thread for a review of messages left on user_talk pages. Raul654, who on the Communications Committee approved it? -- Jeandré, 2006-12-15t11:36

I thought you did - at least, that's the impression I got from your first email to them (We would welcome such research. It may be best to conduct phase two on the users' talk pages instead of the article talk pages, tho placing invitations to participate on the article talk pages would be fine - maybe linking to your or Sharlene's user pages where more indepth information could be posted.) I guess I just assumed if you were on OTRS you were a member of the comcom. Raul654 23:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This must be the colleague of Hickerca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who started out by spamming article talk pages before I advised her to only target user talk pages. For the record, I don't agree with any spam, however well intentioned. But it doesn't look commercial, and if the committee accepted it, so be it. However, I don't think they need two accounts to do this. yandman 07:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

My concern is that if the editors targeted for this survey agree. Makes more sense if the sampling group of articles had a survey template so participation can be voluntary, rather than directly soliciting off article edit historys'.--Hu12 12:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I would consider this unsolicited and certainly not what people signing up to wikipedia might expect and it is therefore effectively spamming.

• The research methodology seems catastrophically flawed and any conclusions draw by the study will be dubious - the problem being subjects may partake in the study multiple times, or at least are being invided to do so - I've just ignored the 3rd opportunity to submit, see my talk page 4th December, which was my second time I completed the study (I naively assumed that this would prove to be a different series of questions from that which I had been previously asked) and now 14th December. The mutiple posting to my talk page to contribute is surely sloppy methodology and the survey's front explanatory page states "anonymously recorded" so there can not be any data validation to prevent this problem.
• Despite requests to Jeandré to become familiar "with conventions before you add messages to even more users", postings are still added to user talk pages without section headers which is disruptive. We have of course a policy of not biting newcomers, as a requirement of assuming good faith for those who are here to work on the collaborative project, however this survey is not contributing to the project.

In summary I feel the systematic targeting of wikipedians is intrusive/spamming and not the purpose of user talk pages. If people really feel this is a useful study to further undertanding of wikis/wikipedia, then would not a single posting to say the WP:CLINMED project page be sufficient ? David Ruben 02:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Besides the flaws with the project itself, I would be unopposed to this if it was completely opt-in and voluntary (i.e. a message about it posted on one of the many boards around here; perhaps the creation of a new board for this purpose). Spamming in this way really doesn't seem like the way to do it. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 02:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Do we need an opinion from the Misplaced Pages Foundation on this ? Not so much about this specific example (although some form of Admin concluding assessment and response seems warranted) but about wider principle of external researchers wanting to research the wiki process by contacting/recruiting wikipedians (I think by nature we're a helpful lot, but the project does come 1st) ? David Ruben 05:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I reported a user for vandalism earlier but I'm not sure what happened afterwards

I posted a message at WP:AIV earlier regarding 24.151.106.196. I can see that (aeropagitica) removed my report with the comment "IP vandals blocked. LIST CLEAR." but I can't see any record of anything on the IP's page. This is the first time I've reported someone for vandalizing articles, I'm just wondering if I've missed something. 172.143.63.173 23:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• The block log says they were blocked for 1 hour on Dec 12. ---J.S 23:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that previous block by Deville from 2 days ago, but I couldn't find any record of (aeropagitica)'s action today though, as they've vandalized again since the original 1 hour block. 172.143.63.173 00:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Put a note on aeropagitica's talk page. Seems like a honest mistake. ---J.S 00:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks, I've done that. 172.143.63.173 00:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this was an honest mistake on my part when I was cleaning out the noticeboard during an AIV shift. It does get busy there at times and I've had more than a few edit conflicts when I've been working on a large backlog! Apologies to all for any inconvenience. I will endeavour to be more careful in future. (aeropagitica) 16:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Problem with Upskirt images

I've agonized for a day about what to do here:Upskirt. Please see User talk:Jerkface for details. I would go to a single admin, but it's the second time it's happened. I'm afraid if it's not settled, it's going to go on and on. ThanksNinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 04:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Details on this: User:Jerkface has uploaded (and User:CommandoM reposted) several pornographic images to Upskirt. The current set are a bit less explicit than the original offerings, but they seem like probable copyvios. When asked to verify that these pictures are taken by User:Jerkface (as claimed) and posted with the subject's permission (as claimed) the answers are not assuring. Details on User talk:Jerkface. — edgarde 05:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

They are not pornographic images, but anyway it doesn't even matter. Because wikipedia is not censored, and as such images should be added where they would be of benefit to the article. Such as is obviously the case with upskirt. The user cooperated with your requests as much as is reasonable, and to claim the answers where not assuring is only true in your own mind. Mathmo 05:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Given that more than one editor has removed such images -- for more than one reason, I might add -- snarky nonsense about how things are "only true in your own mind" aren't really called for. Not to mention that "wikipedia is not censored" is not an all-purpose carte blanche, either. --Calton | Talk 07:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

hmmm... true, perhaps somebody could mis-read what I wrote and take it too seriously. Whatever.. now I'll might add that more than one editor has also added in images to that article. Like the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words, and would be very handy in that article for the greater clarity of it. Shouting out OMG look look somebody put "pornography" in that article is also not an all-purpose carte blanche for deletion. Mathmo 07:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, so you didn't write the insulting phrase "only true in your own mind"? My mistake, but that's how it shows up on my computer monitor. How does it show up on yours? --Calton | Talk 08:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Heh, going to be picky with one phrase and take it out of context to turn about the meaning? If you are easily insulted then fine, be insulted. I can't do anything about changing your overly sensitive sensitivities. Am not one either to go out of my way to offend people, at worst you might just want to accept I at times state things a little too frankly of how see the world for your likings. Mathmo 09:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

How exactly is it out of context? It's exactly what you said and it's exactly how you meant it. The reality is that there are laws (not to mention moral issues) regarding taking photographs of someone in a... "compromised state" (whether or not you think it's pornography is irrelevant) and providing the general public with access to them. The truth is that AGF doesn't work in some situations, including ones like this. It's far too easy for someone to take such a picture without the subject's knowledge (or to obtain it from another source) and claim that they have the right to take and publicly post such a picture. This is a legal issue; anything else you throw at it is a straw man. —bbatsell ¿? 16:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Whatever, I'm not going to reply here anymore to what you have just said. Don't believe this page here is the right place to be discussing this, and simply don't feel like running the risk anymore of accidentally stepping on somebody's sensitive toes and "offending" them. So lets leave this as that for now. Mathmo 21:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Downblouse

A similar controversy may exist on Talk:Downblouse. Apparently User:CommandoM is uploading over objections there. I have not been involved in that discussion. — edgarde 05:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you read the page you will see there is no problem there, as HighInBC said: "The picture was requested, it is topical, it is legal, it illustrates the article, information should not be removed without reason". Mathmo 06:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well, I've commented there, but just because there is a request, that does not mean there is a need. I might want to see Julia Stiles with a look of love in her eyes in my bedroom, but that doesn't mean that such a photograph would help the encyclopedia in any way. Geogre 14:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That information is old, I had the image removed after several rude comments, and the whole publicgirluk cufuffle. That was a while ago, so any picture there now needs to be considered seperately. HighInBC 16:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Consensus on vandalism user subpages?

I am trying to build a consensus on vandalism user subpages. I do not think they are acceptable according to Misplaced Pages's policies, and should thus be done away with accordingly. But first, some background information.

For those of you not aware, a vandalism user subpage is a page created with the sole intent of being vandalized. Typically users will transclude these onto their user pages and leave some text along the lines of, "Vandalize this". To me, these are obviously a bad idea, as they encourage vandalism. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a vandalism warehouse, and I don't think it's an appropriate use of WMF's servers to be hosting places for vandalism.

One major problem with the vandalism subpages is that they create a bit more work for admins. By their very nature, they attract vandalism, and often a bad kind of vandalism. I've seen some pretty vicious personal attacks in these subpages, which creates even more work for Wikipedians and admins, who have to patrol these abominations and remove all of the vandalism that is too bad to be displayed (like the aforementioned "He also masturbates while thinking about his mother."). It's a terrible misuse of admin resources to have to patrol pages that are vandalism magnets; it's much better simply to get rid of the magnets themselves.

Let's look at the kind of culture these subpages promote. They encourage the notion that vandalism is acceptable. Per WP:BEANS, this is a bad idea. They dilute Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission by saying "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, but also a graffiti wall." Just look at the risk-to-benefit ratio on vandalism subpages; there's all negatives and no positives. Userspace was not created to give users total freedom to create anything they want on Misplaced Pages, and I do believe vandalism is beyond the pale. Also, they create the tricky issue of somehow trying to determine when someone has crossed a line; obviously if someone posts "You're a stupid cunt" on a userpage, they can be blocked for a personal attack, but if they post this on a vandalism subpage, they have some measure of defense by rationalization: "Ohh, but they wanted vandalism, I didn't really mean it." I can only see this leading to more problems and friction between users. Personal attacks should never be acceptable, and we shouldn't give the people making them any sort of excuse to try to make them.

If you go look over at WP:CSD, you'll see that global criterion for speedy deletion #3 is: "Pure vandalism, including redirects created during cleanup of page move vandalism." Thusly, vandalism subpages fall under a criteria for speedy deletion, unless and until we come up with some inane policy that "Vandalism is never acceptable, unless the user wants it." Since I really don't see that happening, I will be deleting all of the vandalism subpages that I come across, and I would encourage all of my fellow admins to do the same. --Cyde Weys 14:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I've had the same position since I first saw one of these: they don't help the encyclopedia and as you point out can cause extra work and/or harm. I would support a move to delete them all, adding appropriate verbiage as necessary to Misplaced Pages:User page or other policies and guidelines as appropriate. While normally I am opposed to rules creep, this is not rules creep per se but a clarification of what Misplaced Pages is not, and of the exisiting rules. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 14:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur: I fail to see why WP:CSD#G3 fails to apply. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 15:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Nuke'em. Thatcher131 15:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Even mentioning vandalism on a user page - or any page - violates WP:BEANS. What encyclopaedic purpose do these pages serve? Anyone? Guy (Help!) 15:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • None…but I think you need to provide some context for your first comment. "My main activity on Misplaced Pages is fixing vandalism" is hardly an egregious beanstuffing slogan. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 15:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    • So vandalism subpages don't harm anyone, but don't help the encyclopaedia and encourage trolls, therefore should go. Yet subpage galleries of all the pictures on Commons containing nudity don't harm anyone, but don't help the encyclopaedia and encourage trolls, but should stay. I don't get that. Bafflement at double standards aside, any and all "vandalism subpages" should go. Userspace subpages should either help the encyclopaedia, or be deleted. Misplaced Pages isn't free web hosting. Proto::► 15:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
      • • Are you referring to user subpages like this? (warning: not work-safe). FWIW, before I posted that, I commented on Cyde's talk page in support of nuking the vandalism subpages, and I still support nuking such subpages. Carcharoth 15:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
• I think Cyde's policy will create more work for admins (now we have to check all userpages if they have a vandalism section??), and is completely unnecessary. Like most policing of userspace, it creates unnecessary drama in the name of "but this does not help building the encyclopedia" without actually helping to build the encyclopedia. Most of the "vandalize this section" sections I have seen on people's userpages were not used for real vandalism, but by usually vandal-fighting Wikipedians having some fun. Keeping Wikipedians happy builds the encyclopedia. Kusma (討論) 15:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Please don't try to turn this on its head and suggest that I am calling for more work. It's clearly less work to simply remove these vandalism subpages than to have to continuously patrol them and clean up the nonsense they inevitably generate. I'm not suggesting that we patrol through every single userspace, looking for these things to delete; merely that we delete them as we run across them. --Cyde Weys 15:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm sorry, I misunderstood your intentions, and apologize for not thinking more before accusing you of policy creep. Userspace is not a free speech zone, and at the very least vandalism subpages whose owners don't clean up personal attack vandalism there should be deleted (now I am turning this into policy creep). I shouldn't have used Geogre's "good" vandalism section in a way that looks like I encourage "bad" vandalism pages like Fredil Yupigo's free-speech zone. Kusma (討論) 11:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• (posted after edit conflict) I think these pages should be covered specifically by a mention among the speedy deletion criteria at WP:CSD if they are not already. My feeling is that these are like the blank concrete walls of a highway underpass - taggers will fill any open space with graffiti and there are some who would argue "better there than on the building next door to my home"; the analogous argument here would be "better to provide an out-of-the-way place for scribblers to do their stuff than in article-space". However, I don't agree with that argument - these should be done away with, not necessarily only based on their falling under 'vandalism' but also because they are explicitly (when invitations to vandalize are involved) for social networking through shared contributions aimed at a goal other than improving the encyclopedia and therefore fall under part of WP:NOT ("Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site"). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I think some social networking "vandalism" can be good for the atmosphere, see the sonnet section of User:Geogre. Kusma (討論) 15:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    • It sure as hell shouldn't be called vandalism then. Call it a "sandbox" or whatever. --Cyde Weys 15:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Certainly not all social networking involves vandalism and not all social networking is banned from Misplaced Pages; that networking that facilitates creation of the encyclopedia should be preserved and in moderation encouraged. Let's put it this way - any speedy deletion criterion needs to be applied using common sense and any page that is deleted under CSD can be taken up for undeletion - including 'valid networking exercises' where they can be considered for preservation in the Misplaced Pages environment. CSD is a broad, fast and crude instrument - which is why it shouldn't be applied letter-of-the-law style and notifications of CSD action need to be put on user talk pages so that remedies for recovery can be applied. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I think we are ignoring the big problem here, and is those fake You have new messages things... GRR! Ummm, oh ya, the vandalism thing, a sandbox is for learning, practicing, and testing wiki markup that is fine. But if it does not serve the encyclopedia and causes extra work for the community then it cannot be justified. HighInBC 16:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "Fake You have new messages things" ... huh? I'm not sure what you mean. 'New message' notices generated as the result of vandalism to your user talk page, perhaps? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
      • No, some people actually write fake "new messages" banners and put them at the top of their pages. When you click on it, it doesn't take you to your own talk page, but to somewhere like Practical joke ... though I've seen some trolls making it go to much worse places. And yes, I have been removing those on sight. They're just plain annoying. --Cyde Weys 17:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Oh, ok. Sorry for making you spill some BEANS to educate me. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Lol, fergot about the beans. HighInBC 17:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that vandalism subpages fall under CSD 3 and should be speedied. There's no valid reason to have them here. If people want to goof off, they can use the sandbox. ···日本穣 20:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If Cyde specifically talks about the User:Geogre#Sonnet_Vandalism then this piece of the social networking does not contradict the goals of the project and may even somehow encourage creating encyclopedic content. In general, I assume that whoever created a sandbox in his userspace is responsible for cleaning it from bad vandalism. If not G10,G11,G12,G3 are still applicable, no need for the instruction creep Alex Bakharev 23:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

We're not talking about sandboxes here, we're talking about vandalism subpages that are explicitly labeled for, and encourage, vandalism. Indeed, in many cases, simply changing the name could make it acceptable. --Cyde Weys 00:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I've put a note on Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion that refers to a permalink copy of this discussion. I think a reasonable consensus emerged and my thinking is that further discussion would be best to pursue over at WP:CSD. Regards --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Closing Poll: "Ryūkyū" instead of "Ryukyu"

Can some admin please look over the following 2 recently closed polls, related to WP:MOS-JA, and determine if I conducted them properly?....

1. Poll: "Ogasawara Islands" instead of "Bonin Islands"
2. Poll: "Ryūkyū" instead of "Ryukyu"

We have exhausted the regular list of impartial admins in WP:MOS-JA, because many of them voted on this issue.

Although I went ahead and closed these 2 polls myself, can some admin look over the final results there, and either endorse or revise these final results? The 2nd poll is particularly controversial. (For full details on the controversy and background information, see Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū (in the WP:MOS-JA talk page) and Talk:Ryukyu Islands.) If the results should be "no consensus" instead, there's also the qustion of what the status quo was to begin with, because there were massive undiscussed page moves and changes at around October. (See page histories of Ryukyu Islands, Ryukyu proper, Ryukyu Kingdom, Ryukyuan language, Ryukyu Trench, Ryukyuan history, Category:Ryukyu Islands, etc.) Thank you for your cooperation.--Endroit 15:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Husond has requested me to reopen the 2nd poll in my talk page, and I quote him below, but I believe a reanalysis (and possible change of the final results) by an impartial admin is sufficient.--Endroit 15:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)....

"Endroit, it is very unorthodox for a poll nominator to close his own poll, especially after actively participating in it. Please reopen the poll an wait for an administrator that did not participate to close it. Furthermore, the result was clearly not "oppose" but rather "no consensus". Regards --Húsönd 15:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)"

I too would appreciate it if a few administrators would comment on this poll. I can not claim to be impartial, however I think it is clear that the poll was "no consensus". Regardless of the result, I also question the conclusions drawn from the poll. I have left more specific comments after the poll. Thank you. Bendono 16:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I contacted Tariqabjotu asking him for a second opinion regarding this issue. In his reply, he agrees that Endroit should've not closed the poll in his favor. However, Tariq reckons that Endroid chose the right output ("oppose"). I am very reluctant to concede "oppose" as the outcome from a discussion with this result (regardless of my bias in this particular one). The borderline of consensus is of course at each editor's discretion, thus it would be pertinent if more administrators state whether they would close this discussion as "oppose" or "no consensus".--Húsönd 17:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between no consensus and oppose / no move as it applies to this situation? -- tariqabjotu 23:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

In this case, it makes the entire difference. The question of the poll is rather unusual, "Proposal — Use the macronned form "Ryūkyū" instead of the common English form "Ryukyu", for all instances of the word "Ryukyu", in body texts and in page names", where "oppose" is agreeing with the proposer's position. A "no consensus" thus leaves everything as it is (Ryūkyū Islands), whereas an oppose leads to the article being moved to Ryukyu Islands.--Húsönd 00:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Even if it was no consensus, I think there a still a strong enough sentiment to keep/put the article at the version without the macrons. The initial move to the version with macrons in October 2006 was not the result of a move request. Although the article existed at the macron version for a month without contention, very few edits were made to the article in that time period and thus the move probably went largely unnoticed. I understand that some of the other articles (and the category) related to the islands may have been at the macroned version for awhile, but I don't think it would be a good idea to be inconsistent with the spelling. Thus, I think the move should be closed as keep at or move all to Ryukyu. -- tariqabjotu 01:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Requesting admin resolution of sockpuppet/meatpuppet accusation

I've been accused of being a sockpuppeteer by User:BenBurch. This sockpuppet accusation is false. There has been no request for Checkuser; instead, the false accusation has been used as a vehicle for interrogating me, with varying degrees of hostility and incivility, for the past five days. On his own Talk page, this individual has addressed me with the sentence, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on." I am asking whatever administrator reads this first to resolve Ben's accusation. Declare me guilty or innocent, and let's move on. I've been editing without registering an account for about three years; most of my edits have been for errors in spelling, grammar and punctuation. This practice has two significant features: it's never led to any arguments or animosity before, and it is a much needed service. I continue to have a lot of work to do. -- 68.253.133.63 04:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Are you User:BryanFromPalatine? Alex Bakharev 05:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
• Yes, I am. And I would venture to say that the only "bad" thing that 12ptHelvetica and I have done is to express opinions that differ from those of BenBurch. I would add that he has posted the sentence, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on," addressed to me, then quickly deleted it because he knew I had seen it. I'd appreciate a prompt and amicable resolution of this issue before proceeding with any more edits. -- BryanFromPalatine 13:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Could you specify where that message was left. I don't see it on your talk page. I did see some edit warring over the sockpuppet investigation notice, and civility and AGF warnings to you from User:Fairness And Accuracy For All. -- Donald Albury 18:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, of course. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:BenBurch&action=history Please review the series of edits between 20:33 and 21:12 on 5 December. Ben and I were having a conversation. He knew that I was on his Talk page, editing. He knew that it was a two-way conversation and that I would see that remark immediately. He posted it and, seven minutes later after he was sure that I'd seen it, he deleted it; and at 21:12, he deleted the entire conversation. This isn't the only personal attack I've received; it's simply the most reprehensible. I must admit that in response to Ben's provocations, I have engaged in behavior that was less than amicable. F.A.A.F.A. is Ben's tireless defender, supporter and agent in all things Wiki, far more persistently than 12ptHelvetica has supported me, and behaving in many respects like a meatpuppet himself -- though I won't make that accusation. The obvious distinction between the Ben/FAAFA relationship and the 12pt/Bryan relationship is that 12pt and I have extensive edit histories spanning 2-1/2 or three years, independent from each other; but they were done from unregistered IP addresses. A review of the archives from Ben's talk pages proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has a very contentious history here. -- BryanFromPalatine 15:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
    • You started that conversation civilly enough, and BenBurch was not polite in his replies, but you let yourself get dragged into an argument. Ben's comment was definitely out of line but he did remove it himself before anyone spoke to him. As that incident is now ten days old, and you made a point of quoting it in your reply to him after he had removed it from his edit, I'm not inclined to do anything about it now. I do think it would be best if Ben apologized for posting that comment, however briefly it was up, but I think this calls for dispute resolution, not admin intervention. -- Donald Albury 16:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
    • That remark isn't the point of this request for admin intervention. What about the meatpuppet accusation? What happens with that? Is it just going to be an open-ended inquisition, with Ben and FAAFA declaring it "proven" the moment I refuse to tolerate their interrogation any further? I'd appreciate an admin stepping in and resolving that matter one way or the other. Bear in mind that the hostile exchange on Ben's talk page started on 5 December; the sockpuppet accusation was made on 10 December. -- BryanFromPalatine 16:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

• • • • The sockpuppet case has not gone anywhere. It's over. This looks like a dispute between you and BenBurch, and frankly, I'm not interested in taking either side in this dispute. I strongly urge the two of you to be civil, avoid personal attacks and pursue dispute resolution. -- Donald Albury 01:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite Block of User:XP

User:XP has been involved in a heated, but polite, discussion in a Request For Arbitration discussion. This discussion is followed by dozens of Admins, the majority of whom disagree with User:XP's opinion. Admin User:Chairboy has blocked User:XP as a sockpuppet of a banned user, User:Rootology. No rationale was given for how these users were determined to be the same. User:XP had a multi-month long edit history , and denied being User:Rootology when asked. I am concerned a legitimate user may have been silenced by hasty admin action. I request admin's not associated with the Request For Arbitration User:XP was commenting on ask Admin User:Chairboy for his rationale in blocking User:XP. If inadequate rationale exists, in my opinion the user should be unblocked. Abe Froman 18:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd be more than happy to discuss the methods used to support the block, the evidence is square, solid, and the identity of the user as a sock puppet is not in doubt. I appreciate Abe's interest in the matter, and his concern for a fellow editor is both commendable and in the best spirit of Misplaced Pages. Because of the sensitivity of the issue and the history of the blocked user (Rootology), I invite any administrator who is interested to contact me off-wiki. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't call myself completely uninvolved, because I have commented in the Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Seabhcan arbitration case, although I have no experience of editing in the same articles as Seabhcan, MONGO, or XP. I will say, though, that I'm satisfied in this case. Sockpuppetry evidence is never made public, as it would teach people how to avoid detection. In public, I'll say that Rootology was known to be using sockpuppets, and that it was fairly obvious that XP was a sockpuppet of somebody. Regarding the specific evidence that linked the two accounts, let's imagine we had an abusive user who constantly made the same spelling mistake — one of which he was completely unaware — and who was known to use sockpupets. Abe, do you think that it would be a good idea for the administrators who knew about it to post here exactly what that spelling mistake was? Chairboy seems, as far as I can tell, to be completely uninvolved in this case. On his talk page, he has said that administrators who would like to know more may contact him. As one who has dealt with this kind of thing before (detecting sockpuppetry, circulating the evidence privately to other admins and to the ArbCom mailing list, and accepting that uninvolved administrators could carry out the block or not, according to their judgment), and as one who has seen some of the evidence in this case, I'd like to say that I'm completely satisfied. AnnH ♫ 19:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a regular Misplaced Pages contributor, and have not before seen secrecy cited as an integral part of how this project conducts business. Perhaps I am naive, but I would still like an admin uninvolved with Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Seabhcan to investigate the rationale behind User:Chairboy's indefinite block of User:XP. That is all I am asking for. Abe Froman 19:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Chairboy could e-mail his evidence to me. I'm willing to review it. Would that do? Thatcher131 19:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. Abe Froman 19:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thatcher131 has the data. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have had my suspicions about XP for quite some time, since he started editing the MONGO/Seabhcan RfA pages. Thanks, Choirboy. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Having seen the evidence I agree it is a very strong circumstantial case; about as good a match as you're going to get without finding a mistake like mis-signing a talk post. I will say in addition to the private evidence, it is worth noting in the XP's contribution history that he went out of his way to antagonize MONGO on several AfDs even though he had never edited the articles in question. Of course, XP can always appeal to Arbcom. Thatcher131 00:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Abe, I trust Thatcher131, although we have different views about a lot of things, I respect his integrity and I am impressed how he has helped me several times before. Travb (talk) 03:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this Thatcher131. I'm satisfied with the review. Abe Froman 00:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have serious problems here

I'm the user who worked as Lieutenant Dol Grenn and Pooter-the-clown. I edited the Street Fighter-characters and I searched for more informations. I only added the real heights and weights to these characters and User: Danny Lilithborne called it "nonsense". So he added my two usernames to the Administrators' noticeboard. I'm afraid that if someone else would add the heights and weights to these Street Fighter-characters again, that User:Danny Lilithborne and also other administrators would blame me again. Please solve my problem. Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.32.99 (talk • contribs)

Well, in my opinion, adding the heights and weights of the characters (remember, these are fictional characters, so they aren't "real") is nonsense; they were struck from Mortal Kombat character articles a long time ago. I would recommend taking it up with Danny directly, rather than coming here. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Fictional characters can have heights and weights, just that they would be fictional heights and weights. Nothing wrong with that at all. Mathmo 21:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with it as long as it's verifiable and encyclopedic. Anchoress 04:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

What is not mentioned here is that height and weight were removed from MK and SF articles precisely because of Lt. Grenn's constant edit-warring over the issue. It is much simpler to just eliminate those extraneous details entirely. Danny Lilithborne 05:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, Danny, I agree but I'm afraid that if another user would add the heights and weights to these characters that you would blame me again. Is there a way to protect these character-pages?

Another problem is that I used several IPs, namely IPs from a school and from a bank and I made the same edits to these Street Fighter-characters and to the list of famous tall men.

But I'll stop with these edits. Promise. I don't want to have serious problems.

WP:OFFICE means Please Edit

Jimbo says "WP:OFFICE should not be 'hands OFF' but 'hands ON'" (and indicates that the recent stubbing and rewrite of Ron Jeremy is an example of how things are supposed to work) and "The problem is that far too often, when something is tagged WP:OFFICE it just sits there, for months, with everyone scared to do anything. This is the opposite of what is intended.". WAS 4.250 20:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that usually, the existing page is deleted and protected. While there's mention down on the bottom of WP:OFFICE that someone should set up a temporary page, and editing should proceed from there, that's not likely to happen, because each potential editor might end up creating his own temp page, and if a subject involves possible liability to the Foundation, then even temporary pages need a good deal of scrutiny before being posted. If Jimbo wants people to try to repair office-protected articles, then he should make structural changes to make it easier. Argyriou (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

this has not been cleared by danny and there is no formal board statement. I would recomend doing nothing for the time being.Geni 22:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Since when did Danny have to clear Jimbo's statements? --Tango 23:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No one will touch a WP:OFFICE-tagged article because you have a random chance of getting either censured, immediately reverted, desysopped or killed, with no real definite way or knowing which will happen, and the people who tag the article as WP:OFFICE often don't explain why the article is so marked (usually because someone has threatened to sue Misplaced Pages), and why they have made the edits they have (often they have a reason for this). Well, maybe not killed. Sooner or later, usually later, it will be untagged. Possibly. So trust to eventualism in the meantime, and go outside. Oh, and you argue with Danny, you get booted, regardless of how much more you may or may not know about the issue at hand. Proto::► 23:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"you argue with Danny, you get booted, regardless of how much more you may or may not know about the issue at hand."

Wow, talk about negative perspective. I at least trust that Danny is a rational individual, and would be capable of changing his mind if given persuasive reasons for it. --tjstrf talk 23:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Lets just say a few of us have veteran status.Geni 23:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Since jimbo was not the board and thus cannot directly give danny orders. We know that jimbo is not always on the same page as other senior people and it is generaly best to be careful.Geni 23:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Have you read WP:OFFICE? Administrators, who have the technical power to undo protections and deletions, are strongly cautioned against modifying these edits. Official statements and past incidents indicate that such unauthorized modifications will be actively reverted, and possibly the rights of the modifyer will be revoked.. That's a sure sign that Danny can, at a whim, remove somebody's admin status and block them on sight. This has been done in the past. Geni knows this from personal experience. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Having read the WP:OFFICE page before and just looked at it again, I think it can be understood as meaning that (1) if the Office has tagged a page as Office-protected and it is still protected (note: there are only 7 pages in this category in the entire project, see <Category:Office protected>), then (a) no one should even think about lifting the protection before the Office does, and (b) extreme caution, at a minimum, is required before an admin edits the article (meaning functionally most people should keep miles away); (2) if the Office has indicated a page is being monitored (such as by stubbing it) but has not protected it or has unprotected it, then it can be edited, but admins should keep an eye on the page to make extra-sure that edits comply with WP:LIVING and other applicable policies. As I said, that's my best understanding of what is trying to be communicated on WP:OFFICE, but if administrators are uncertain as to the scope of the policy, some clarification could be in order. Newyorkbrad 00:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Repeated requests for clarification have been ignored. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Frustrating 'though a WP:OFFICE action is, we really shouldnt' blame the foundation for it. Defending even the most spurious lawsuit would wipe out the foundation's meagre funds, and Brad, Danny, and the board are obligated to husband those funds as carefully as they can. So they blank the article, issue a stern notice, and they're off the hook (and can show a judge, if necessary, that the foundation took immediate and significant action, which generally gives it safe harbor protection). We might like more information, and we might like a considered opinion from Brad about what we should and shouldn't do, but we aren't going to get it - Brad is the foundation's lawyer, not the encylopedia's, and if he or Danny start opining about what should or could be in the article, they risk losing that safe harbour protection. So expect them to continue to zap articles without meaningful comment or discussion.

That leaves the matter of how we, the community of editors, should treat an article that has been WP:OFFICEd. That an article has been OFFICEd means that a credible (or at least not utterly incredible) threat has been made. Given that there are a million other articles in need of fixing, I don't see why any editor should expose himself to the (probably small, but certainly nonzero) legal risk that editing the OFFICEd artice entails. I believe we should treat article subjects who legally threaten us the way we treat other editors who do so - we say "sorry, we're not playing". We delete the article, replace it with a tag that says "This article has been blanked due to legal threats by its subject or their agent", and protect the article. And we leave it that way forever. There have, as far as I'm aware, been really two categories of threateners: very marginally notable characters (marginal widdle-diddle metal musicians, some retired 80s porn starlet) whose loss is immeasurably small, and self-promoters who are pissed their article describes them in an unfavourable light. I have no problem whatever with our not having a page on such subjects, ever, and if they like having the top google hit for their name being forever more a notice about their willingness to sue a charity and its volunteers, bully for them.

WP:OFFICE is just the foundation taking the necessary steps to protect itself. We need to do the same; to my mind anyone who edits any OFFICEd article ever again is plain bonkers. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You definitely have to think about what you are doing before you edit an Officed page, and though certain edits may be OK to make, certainly don't use any admin tools. Prodego 01:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The solution is, of course, to not create articles filled with unsourced, compromising crap, and we won't need the WP:OFFICE Monty Python Foot of Power to crush nonsense from above in the first place. Judging from the majority reaction to the Ron Jeremy incident, however, we're still a fair distance away from realising that. --Sam Blanning 02:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

69.19.14.44 (talk · contribs) Pov pushing, now personal attacks

User seems to have some sort of POV pushing agenda in regards to the article James Kim. Continues to try and paint their donation fund as some sort of evil money scam. Very abrasive and his last comment on the talk page contained a personal attack .--Crossmr 23:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems to have access to multiple IPs 69.19.14.27 (talk · contribs) also same user.--Crossmr 00:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

semi-protected. Thatcher131 00:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

{{mprotected2}}

I created {{mprotected2}} and Category:Protected pages associated with Main Page articles to assist with keeping track of templates and images that are protected because they are used in articles linked from the Main Page. Hopefully, protecting images and templates used in Today's Featured Article will not be a requirement as it is for images and templates used on the Main Page. However, due to the recent deceptive and disturbing vandalism, some images and templates have had to be protected. Hopefully, admins who do that from now on will add {{mprotected2}} so other admins will know to unprotect the pages at some point. -- tariqabjotu 00:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Thanks for creating it. Chick Bowen 04:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Prads28

He continues to make a test page, removing the {{G2}} I place on his Pradschico page. Please intervene as I believe I have warned him as much as I possibly can for removing the aforementioned CSD, after I referred him to the sandbox explicitly in the welcome message I first left him. Pumeleon 02:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I may have been too hasty. He has not removed the latest CSD. Please watch for further violations. Pumeleon 02:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: He just blanked his page. I will list it as {{G2}} and see if the issue resolves itself. Pumeleon 02:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Backlog of expired prods

Currently at 4 days or 499 "articles" and user pages. Please help out to eliminate this backlog. Thanks. MER-C 02:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ethics of banning socks

Now that AWilliamson is community banned as the sockmaster of the Joan of Arc vandal I have a query about whether there's still a conflict of interest reason for me to refrain from banning his sockpuppets. So far I've touched only one: an impersonation account User:Durova. that deleted archive contents of Williamson's prior talk page wars. Some of those socks have been inactive for many months but other suspected socks remain disruptive at Williamson's other interest points: cross-dressing, homosexuality, and Catholicism. In particular I noticed WP:RFCU#CC80 this evening - a declined request whose other named accounts don't look like red flags for Williamson socks to me - but the edit history for CC80 is classic Williamson activity. I've suspected the account of being a sock since September when it edit warred to delete a link from Joan of Arc. My long investigation probably puts me in the best position to identify his socks - I'd checkuser anything that's dubious. Do I have the community's support to use sysop tools here? Durova 05:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

There are no conflicts of interest with banned users. There are no conflicts of interest simply because an abusive user declares one. —Centrx→talk • 07:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Then here's my second question: I'd like to notify the relevant Wikiprojects for these other subjects because I suspect he'll attempt to dodge enforcement by hopping between socks and different articles. Those project participants would be more likely to spot that behavior than I would. The only catch is where to send them to report such a complex case. WP:RFI doesn't normally handle sockpuppet investigations. Since I know this case in so much depth, would it be appropriate to refer new reports directly to my user talk?

And BTW I don't think this user has claimed I have a conflict of interest. I want to proceed in a way that proves I've been fair and honest in case some future troublemaker ever tries to claim I acted improperly. Since I do a lot of investigations I field spurious misconduct allegations fairly often. I'm open to recall so I want to cover all my bases. Thanks, Durova 14:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the entry at WP:LTA? 68.39.174.238 10:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I've updated that in the last day. After giving this a lot of thought and asking for input I've decided to put my name forward as the primary investigating admin (and contact point). By the way, the only Goa Inquisition editor that's been confirmed as a Williamson sock is CC80. Durova 14:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I see several possible approaches. One, enlist another sysop to take over. Two, enlist a couple of admins to review your work and handle appeals. Three, document the heck out of each action you take - specifically the reasoning behind each action. This leaves the door open for peer review and is probably the most practical. Rklawton 14:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

If any of these suspected socks appeals a ban I'll be ready with evidence, although this user's long and creative career makes it slow reading to even review the documentation, much less replace me (I wouldn't wish this on anyone). I suppose my long hours of work on the case are far from ended. Durova 15:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

CC80 (talk · contribs) and socks have been trolling on Goa Inquisition and vandalizing sourced information. They have succeeded in getting a contradictory and jumbled version protected.Bakaman 18:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Durova, to respond to your opening post, I agree with Centrx. There's no COI that I can see and I don't think you should be hamstrung by the sock of a community banned vandal. I believe you have the common sense to know when you might be compromised and should step back and ask another admin to act. Sarah Ewart 09:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Christine_Maggiore semiprotection

Semiprotection was requested on WP:AN/I#Christine_Maggiore by User:JohnnyBGood. I think semiprotection for a couple of days is warranted. The article was edited in a POV manner by at least two IPs. The question is sensitive and attractive for vandals and POV pushers. I see no problems if the article will be protected for a couple of days. Everybody interested in the edit warrings could get an account. Obviously, if could persuade another admin to unprotect the article I would not revert his or her actions Alex Bakharev 05:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Chronic vandal duplicates my username

A vandal i've been chasing and reverting(they've regsitered several accounts over the past 15 minutes), has registered a username discernably similar to mine and is performing vandalism with it. thanks, i kan reed 07:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Ikanread76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for the name and for being an obviouse sockpuppet. I have also blocked The Megocian76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and YankeesGlen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) as obvious sockpuppets (of an as yet unidentified puppetmaster). (Just look at their edit summaries.) There's probably more to be found, but I need to go back to bed. If more than one admin agrees that these blocks should be lifted or modified, you don't need to contact me first. -- Donald Albury 10:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I Requesting to admin to block User srkris Permanently from Misplaced Pages

1 ) He is lying

please read a sentence he typed in his user page

Misplaced Pages seems to have a lot of nuts, and this user decided to stay away from it for his own sanity ~ Srkris .

My question is that if user srkirs stay away from wikipeidia for his own sanity why he editing in wikipeida using varios IP Address 59.92.xxx.xxx ?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Srkris
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.63.37
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.66.141
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.87.12
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.83.98
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.144.27.187
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.38.148
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.50.88
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.46.102
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/59.92.59.162

2 ) He is spamming He is the owner of some website like Chembai.com, rasikas.org(PunBB.org Forums ). He tried to put weblink like chembai.com, rasikas.org etc in almost all article to promote his personal website.

3) He is trying to put images and images belong to Chembai in various article. And editing that article to show Chembai and his other fans/relative are great and others are nothing in carnatic music especially Yesudas and M. Balamurali Krishna. And trying to emphasize chembai.

4) This is a request to admin that please don't allow Aum (OHM) or Flag of India before any user name. It may be an Website of USA , but we have to Keep our Values.

5) He is pretending that he is a scholler in Carnatic music.

6) A blocked user should not try to edit any article . But he violate the law in the wikipedia.

7) He is threatening some users with some wiki rules. and he is not obey the rules.

• if the above mentioned are not matching with character of user srkris any body can remove this .

thanks and bye Pluto.2006 07:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand half of these. Please provide diffs. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The guy has a definite point here even if his English grammar is a bit sub-par. For some diffs, take a look at these ones to Chembai:

and the ones to Carnatic music:

It should be noted, however, that the IP 59.144.27.187 simply seems to be making your normal newbie test edits and may be unrelated. Those edits were in September though, so it is equally possible that it was User:Srkris prior to his creating an account, as he officially joined in October. Does this need to go to checkuser, or is the evidence good enough for blocks of any recently used IPs already? There are numerous similar diffs, I found those ones in about 45 seconds. --tjstrf talk 12:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

He appears to have a possible account sock as well: User:Harikw, who keeps edit warring over the picture to use on Carnatic music for no explicable reason and conveniently appeared after the page was semi-protected. --tjstrf talk 12:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Harikw indef as a sock of Srkris‎, and increased Srkris‎' block to 21 days from today for evasion. Please review this if you think I was in error, but it seemed clear to me. HighInBC 14:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the chances that Harikw is a sockpuppet of Srikris is quite low. Their editing style and contributions are very different. Tintin (talk) 04:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Since I am not completely sure I have unblocked the user and apologized. HighInBC 05:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Please unblock

Please unblock It was a compromised host someone hacked into my system but my network admin fixed the issue. Please unblock. 65.99.214.132

How do you know it's fixed? How are we to know that it's fixed? Claiming that someone else did it is more than iffy. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I know it´s difficult but it is fixed. How can I prove this to you? You can watch the edits after you unblock me, then you see I like wikipedia. I would not do such things. I beg you please unblock. 65.99.214.132

Sorry, but the account had been compromised and will not be unblocked. Naconkantari 07:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It was not anymore, please unblock it i like wikipedia. 65.99.214.132

There's some sound reasoning behind it. i.e. sockpuppet User:Mnbvcxy, and that your account vandalized your own failed RfA, which is unlikely for a random vandal who got control of the account. In any case, if the hackishness is true we can't know if it's still compromised or not, and can't unblock it. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Please! Everything of that was the vandal. Now the network leak is fixed. Please unblock the account. What about the IP adress? Please unblock at least this. Otherwise I can´t do anything on wikipedia. 65.99.214.132

I've blocked the above IP. Naconkantari 07:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

He's persistent. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 09:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Large numbers of redirects to Hexspeak

See Special:Whatlinkshere/Hexspeak, many of which were created by Hexdec16 (talk · contribs), who does not seem to be stopping. Is this going to get to represent every possible word that can be expressed with 0-9 / A-F ? It seems a bit much. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 10:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's kind of like a reverse category through redirects. I wouldn't see the harm in doing this for values that actually have some documented use (as people might then encounter these), but just entering every combination of those letters that can make a word seems rather pointless. —Doug Bell  10:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Chinese River Dolphin move to Baiji

Chinese River Dolphin is needed to be moved to Baiji. Baiji was a disambig page but has now been moved to Baiji (disambiguation) so that Chinese River Dolphin can take its place. Could someone please move Chinese River Dolphin to Baiji.

The Chinese River Dolphin is not an accepted English term, Baiji is.

Thanks Chris_huh 12:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

umm the BBC uses "Chinese River Dolphin" http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfacts/factfiles/66.shtml Geni 13:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And CNN call it 'Baiji' - . Proto::► 13:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The Worldwide Fund for Nature (China) call it the Yangtze River Dolphin, which has more Google hits than either of the other two names. . Proto::► 13:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Baiji gets by far the most results on JStor (and everyone I looked at seems to be about the Dolphin) from academic journals. So um... an argument could be made pretty much any way. --W.marsh 15:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Also way more on Google Scholar. Honestly since all 3 terms are used, the pagename really isn't that critical... no need to rush into moving it just because the story just broke. A movewar would be a bad idea. --W.marsh 15:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Everyone knows the news often gets things wrong, particularly when it involves anything slightly scientific. Google results overwhelmingly give Baiji as more common than Chinese River Dolphin or . The only reason news agencies use Chinese River Dolphin is so that the average punter can understand what it is in the headline. Since anyone looking at more information about it on wikipedia, the fact that it is actually called Baiji is probably the most important thing to know. IUCN list it as baiji, not Chinese River Dolphin and so do almost all others. The WWF should know about this stuff but again, are only putting it as Chinese River Dolphin so that the public are aware of where it is, really they should have it as baiji and then say that it is a river dolphin from the Yangtze in China. Whats the problem here, its quite obvious it should be baiji. Just look at Boto or Orca: the most common name is used, even if it is from another language and then the other name that some people may know it as is listed. Chris_huh 11:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Baiji gets more hits because it has multiple meanings. Search for "baiji + dolphin". Proto::► 12:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Pacific Western University debate has spilled into WP:CFD; Administrative oversight needed

The debate on the content of Pacific Western University has spilled into WP:CFD. One editor has claimed that Category:California Bureau of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (BPPVE) and its subcategories were created to give Pacific Western University the false appearance of accreditation. Since Pacific Western University has a notice about action by the Misplaced Pages Foundation Office on the article, I think administrative oversight of the related category debate may be appropriate. Dr. Submillimeter 17:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You probably want to drop Guy a note as he is actively editing this article. --Spartaz 17:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:United Methodism

Could an administrator look at recent edits to Category:United Methodism? The category was turned into a redirect for Category:United Methodist Church following an undisputed nomination for renaming on 2006 November 2. Since then, Pastorwayne has added text and parent categories to Category:United Methodism. This seems to violate the spirit of turning the category into a redirect. It may be appropriate to discuss the issue with Pastorwayne. Dr. Submillimeter 19:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Huge backlog at CAT:CSD

Please fix, lots of admins required. Cheers, Moreschi 21:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of images that have been tagged with User:Mecu/nffh this "template." It was created yesterday by Mecu (talk · contribs) and is being added to any personal-type photo, including those used on Wikipedians' user pages. It states that "The given reason is: Unencyclopedic and Misplaced Pages is not a free file host. The image appears to have no encyclopedic value and is not used on Misplaced Pages (excluding vandalism)." Is this appropriate or not? This isn't a speedy deletion criteria, so basically, the user has created policy and a matching template for the policy. Metros232 21:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

They aren't speedy deletion candidates. The images should be listed on WP:IFD. J Di 21:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Note there is a discussion thread on the image speedy deletion criteria at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Speedy deletion criteria for images?. —Doug Bell  22:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

So what's the appropriate course of action here? Rollback the edits where Mecu added the tags? Metros232 21:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Images apart, CSD is still backlogged, guys! Best, Moreschi 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

When is CSD not backlogged? The name CSD is a lie. Would anybody support a name change? J Di 22:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like the best solution, but look at each edit before you roll them back. J Di 22:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Should we name it "Category for Semi-fast deletion?" :) ---J.S 01:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

What do people want, a decent verification that the CSD justification is valid and a reasonable attempt at avoiding unnecessary or bad-faith deletions, or quick results? Anyone who feels strongly motivated to patrol and reduce CSD backlog should head over to WP:RFA. Guy (Help!) 13:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Should we be deleting Categories from from CAT:CSD which do not appear at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Working#Ready_for_deletion or is appearance on the 'Ready to delete' list a formality that is not necessary? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Pacific Western University

More eyes needed here, please, we have a batch of single-purpose accounts inflating this unaccredited university (categorised as a diploma mill in Senate testimony), which has included creating a list of "notable PWU people" (most of whom are, of course, not notable at all), adding PWU "degrees" to existing biographies without the relevant qualifier that the school is unaccredited, that kind of thing. It's all strongly reminiscent of Gastroturfing. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Image:Cleft.jpg

Image:Cleft.jpg is apparently a bad image, only for use on pages it is specifically allowed. Despite the fact that on the MediaWiki:Bad image list page it lists the pages it can be used on (eg Cleft of venus), on those pages it's only shown as a link rather than as an image. Can this be fixed? Fishies Plaice 22:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair Use image - reproduction

Currently theres a discussion occuring at Image talk:Pitch drop experiment.jpg about whether this image can be used on wikipedia under permission with a fair use claim.

The reason behind saying it cant is that the image can be reasonably reproduced, in this case the experiement has been running for 79 years at the time of the photo 73 years had elapsed. The occurance as photographed happens once somewhere between 8 and 12 years based on previous occurances, next occurance will be between 2008 and 2012 from this experiement.

I'm not looking for comment on the image or its use. What I'm doing is using this example to question the current very narrow definition of "reasonably reproduced" that is resulting in editors running around tagging images without thought as to the practicalities of the reproduction.

I believe that there should be some requirement for the editor claiming it can be reproduce to actually demostrate or provide the reproduction. This is opposed to current situation that enables a person to make such a claim without any need to verify that claim. If editors dispute article text we require them to cite from reliable soures all facts yet we dont have the same requirement when applied to implementation of image copyright policies. Gnangarra 01:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

We don't get to choose what is or isn't fair use: courts do that. Our fair use policy reflects our current best estimation of what a court will consider fair use. And the burden of proof is always going to be on the uploader (because they're the person legally responsible) not one someone who questions that. You have to understand that Misplaced Pages already has the most liberal (indeed, foolhardy) idea of what a court will consider fair use. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

For the pitch drop experiment we have the specific permission from the author (who is the official keeper of the experiment) to use the image on Misplaced Pages. For some reason the author does not want to release the image under a free license. It is a typical case of the trade off between the quality of encyclopedia and the freeness of its content, the law has nothing related to it, this is simply the matter of our policies and preferences Alex Bakharev 03:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

In this particular case, there is no legal issue because the copyright holder of the image has granted permission for us to use it. The only issue is one of Misplaced Pages policy. Replaceable fair use policy could allow use-by-permission images that are replaceable or supposedly replaceable, until that replacement is put on Misplaced Pages. —Centrx→talk • 03:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Finlay McWalter says "Our fair use policy reflects our current best estimation of what a court will consider fair use." It is very very important to understand that this is totally false. Fair use differs from nation to nation and in America is far more liberal than what we allow at wikipedia. Do not treat Misplaced Pages fair use policy as refecting the law as it does not. Most important, understand most wikipedia talk about fair use is about images while most fair use law concerns text. Also understand that this is not settled law so no one has absolute answers regarding fair use. Even more complicating is that Misplaced Pages has recently changed from allowing fair use images that help the encyclopedia to not allowing such images if, because of wikipedia's current high profile, we can get the images under a free copyright license like GFDL. This is because Misplaced Pages is about free as in freedom not just free as in no cost. WAS 4.250 03:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that McWalter was simply generalising, but WAS' clarification is important to understanding our guidelines. Jkelly 04:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The specific example is a trigger only and the current example. What I'm asking is when an unsupported statement is made such as this case an editor has claimed a free image can be produced that the person making such a claim should have some onus to support such a claim. We rightly dont accept unsubstanciated claims in articles why should an unsubstanciated claim be aceptiable when implementing policy. Gnangarra 04:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

As has been mentioned above, if one wants to republish unfreely licensed material on Wikimedia servers, the onus is on you to establish that it meets our criteria for doing so. We're going to be conservative about this. If this seems arbitrary or confusing to you, I'm sorry, but there is really no chance that we are going to ask for a citation from a reliable source when an editor expresses concern that a fair use claim isn't compelling. Jkelly 04:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Theres nothing confusing about an abitrary decision I'm sorry you cant see that I'm asking how could a policy be implemented when its based on an individuals unsubstanciated claim. I'm then also aking why such a policy exists. When you consider this is a regular occurance maybe the use of 'fair use images should not occur as is the case may other language wikipedia. Gnangarra 05:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

My interpretation is that it is for the party asserting the claim of fair use to present reasonable arguments for why the image is not replaceable (or repeatable), and not the other way around. --Oden 08:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Which is a fair assertion but once those assertions have been presented continued arguements should also have some burden of proof requirement, here in lies the issue. Image foo.jpg is being used under fair use editor A come along and says that fair use cant be applied because another image can be created. The uploader responds with the reason as to why it cant be yet editor A still maintains that it can be. Uploader again asserts that it cant and provides additional reasonings as to why, editor A still maintains that it can be quotes FU policy. Editor B agrees with the uploader assertions so questions editor A claim who just again quotes FU policy that a free image could be created. this circle continues. End result is a lot of very heated discussion spilling onto pages of AN, RFC, ARBCOM or even worse outside of wikipedia but provided that editor A is willing to continue quoting FU policy the issue is never resolved. Unlike any other content disputes there is no burden on the person making the accusations that the image doesnt comply with FU policy to support that claim. Normal end result is that the uploader gives up, leaves or reduces future contributions, editor A claims a victory image gets deleted and another article becomes abandoned without further improvement.

So what we have is policy thats damaging wikipedia either it needs to be changed to include a burden of proof on all parties for continued dispute or alternatively the continuation of fair use needs to be terminated. Gnangarra 15:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh? You could make up a silly scenario like this for any policy on Misplaced Pages. The point is that once the uploader has provided reasons as to why the image would be irreplaceable, "just continuing to quote policy" will do Editor A no good; if they believe the reasons given are invalid, they should explain why. Now, if the reasons for irreplaceability advanced are clearly not compelling, it is possible that the image will be deleted whether or not A responds; if, on the other hand, the reasons are compelling and A fails to respond with counterarguments but instead just quotes policy, the image will likely be kept. --Robth 16:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

On Image talk:Pitch drop experiment.jpg someone has just pointed to the following pics at Flickr , , which prove that it is possible for the general public to take pictures of the experiment. Unfortunately these particular images are all rights reserved, so we can't use them either, but as far as I'm concerned they prove conclusively that the image we have is replaceable. —Angr 21:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Seabhcan

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

For misuse of his administrative tools and failure to relate appropriately with other administrators, MONGO is desysopped. For misuse of his administrative tools, as well as disruptive conduct in edit warring and incivility, Seabhcan is desysopped. Seabhcan is placed on standard personal attack parole for one year. He may be briefly blocked by any administrator for any edit which is deemed to be a personal attack or incivility for up to 24 hours. All blocks to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Seabhcan#Log_of_blocks_and_bans.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 08:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Rugby 666

I just indefinitely blocked Rugby 6666 as a sockpuppet of the above. I extended to 3 months the block on Rugby 666 for sockpuppetry and personal attacks here. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced images added by User:Calapez

Calapez has recently uploaded about 600 copyright images with no fair-use rationale or indication of source. As far as I can tell, they are mostly low-resolution logos that would probably pass for fair use as long as the source and a basic rationale are included. But it's probably going to take a long time to sort this all out. I thought I'd bring it to someone's attention here in case there's something that can be done to help. (If these images all came from the same source, then maybe they could be tagged automatically?). I've left a list on his talk page. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 17:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Recent events

Recently we have seen MONGO and Seabhcan desysopped, FeloniousMonk "counselled" and I've seen some other issues here and on the mailing lists which give pause for thought. I wonder, do we need to have some place where admins can let off steam and get support without the whole world looking on? I note that the mediation committee have a private mailing list, I wonder if that might be an idea for admins. This is not to allow the cabal to work more effectively in secret, but to give a (hopefully) troll free environment for discussion of issues related to performance of admin duties. Another option is maybe a permanently protected noticeboard. Or maybe it's a crap idea, I don't know. Just thinking out loud, really, mainly because I think we (as admins) should really have been able to stop MONGO going off the rails, and I really feel we failed him. Guy (Help!) 17:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It might not be a horrid idea in theory, but openness is paramount to proceedings here. As a lowly editor, I'd need a lot of convincing that there's a reason admins can discuss things about my class of user in secret. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

From another "lowly editor" - not a bad idea, but unless I'm very much mistaken isn't there already an admin-only IRC channel? People do occasionally need a place to blow off steam, though, which is fair enough and can't really be a bad thing. Best, Moreschi 17:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ::Sometimes altercations on Misplaced Pages spill into the 'real world'; if it appears that events might be leading that way, the ability to discuss off-wiki is something that can resolve matters without catastrophic outcomes. If it's just a matter of bad behavior and civility and hot heads that need to cool, that's one thing; but if people are looking for one another in the real world to face off or confront or attacking through family and profession - that's when additional tools and processes are needed to keep things from turning from a simmer to a boil-over. I don't know the details of the desysopping that Guy mentioned above, so I'm not sure if this exact thing happened in those cases or not. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem with IRC is that it is transient. Mailing lists and Wiki pages can be accessed by multiple people in different time zones (he said from GMT-land). Guy (Help!) 18:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, someone else on GMT! Rare being! Fair enough. Why not an admin mailing list - particularly given the discouragingly high rate of admin burn-out? Worse than all the junior tennis players I've seen over the years - which is saying something, trust me. Moreschi 18:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

An admin mailing list sounds not too bad, as long as it is publically viewable. Otherwise I really dread "It was discussed on the mailing list" kind of decisions. Transparency is important. --Conti|✉ 18:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, if you had a mailing list for admins that wasn't public (and if it were public, it wouldn't be a place for "blowing off steam," because it would be just like doing so here), the folks who howl about the "Admin Cabal" will have even more fuel for the fire than they do now. And we definitely don't need to offer up any more ammunition in that department. I admit, it would be great to give the admins a place where they can go off if they need to - but privacy in a project like this is a bit difficult to call for, I think. Tony Fox (arf!) 19:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with a private forum for admins, we already have an IRC channel. It is okay to talk in private as long as our actions are based on publicly disclosed information. The idea of a noticeboard that anyone can read but only admins can edit is a fine idea, with full transparency. I would love it. Though it's talk page should be unprotected so people can still comment in a non-disruptive manner. HighInBC 20:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Don't the problems being discussed here affect Admins and non-Admins alike? The distinction is that Admins have additional tools available to them, but the triggers, personalities, experience levels, and consequences for Misplaced Pages cross the Admin/non-Admin divide. Therefore, shouldn't there be a process for producing private discussions to resolve differences and 'blow off steam' that is accessible to all Wikipedians in some fashion? There isn't any need to create an Admin-only communications channel, because often the circumstances that Admins find themselves in that lead to explosive decompression involve non-Admins as well as Admins and communications that by definition excludes a party to discussion is not part of the solution, it's part of the problem. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, don't you have some editors on Misplaced Pages with whom you feel slightly close and friendly? Like users you have worked well with? You can discuss that on each other's talk pages, e-mail each other, or go onto something like AIM. There are so many options available for everyone. What about Member's Advoctates? There should be a messageboard where people can say anything they want, within reason without having to see it brought up against them. If they break policies dramatically there (like WP:ATTACK they'll be banded from the board... Cbrown1023 20:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The IRC admin channel really isn't that great for what Guy describes anyway... I wouldn't go there for support, for various reasons you'd be more likely to just get frustration and smart remarks. The list would actually have to be active admins only, not friends of admins, people who got de-sysopped, random people the list owners like, etc. However due to the obvious concerns, it might be a good idea to give a few trustworthy non-admins access (or read-only access)... Newyorkbrad, Badlydrawnjeff, Daniel Bryant, I dunno, whoever we could agree upon, to just ensure that the list doesn't get out of hand. --W.marsh 20:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, divide and rule. How will you decide which of us peons are trustworthy? Catchpole 21:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

We'll start by not considering anyone who's made comments like you just did. --W.marsh 21:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Just yes-men then? Catchpole 21:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Just people who wouldn't make every conversation we tried to have an annoying "admin abuse!!" episode. --W.marsh 21:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit strange to say you don't like the current admin channel because of some of the non-admins who are in there, then you go on to list a few non-admins you'd let into your version of the channel that are even more controversial than the non-admins we currently have in there. --Cyde Weys 21:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Imagine what he'd say behind closed doors. d:-P --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ooh-whoo-whoo, a sysopery! An admin hive where we can hatch our evil cabal plans! Me likes...--Kchase T 20:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that in principle anybody who asked nicely and is a "known face" would be allowed to subscribe (damn, is Newyorkbrad not an admin?), but only verified admins could write (so like a protected talk page). The difference as I see it it is that on Misplaced Pages you have to abide by various rules; although we can call a spade a spade, asking openly whether X is a spade could be taken as a civility violation, as would saying X is a spade and then having nine others immediately point out the crucial evidence you missed. I don't know, maybe it's a crap idea, but I have the strong feeling there should be at least one place where those of us who do sysoppery can put our feet up and know we won't be bearded by whichever nest of socks we're currently fighting. I keep coming back to the MONGO case, but also various other ArbCom cases, including WebEx and Min Zhu and more. Somewhere there should be a mechanism for finding out that you're going off the rails before the train crashes. It's a half-formed and possibly half-baked idea, which is why I brought it up for discussion. Guy (Help!) 21:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Brad has been refusing invitations to be nominated for months, so it is his own damn fault. Dragons flight 21:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

No special accommodations for me, please. My declinations have been purely a function of time-on-site and timing and that won't last forever (I won't say more out of respect for the no-advertising-one's-own-RfA norms). The others mentioned above would be strong candidates as well (I know each was unsuccessful once, but some of those issues have faded). Newyorkbrad 21:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, issues which relate to how Misplaced Pages is managed need to be transparent, and at least readable by all, so I am opposed to the creation of a truly private admin mailing list. If you need to blow off steam, people should be encouraged to do that with their friends, but not through a global admin mailing list. By friends, I mean here either real world non-Wiki friends, or by emailing other Wikipedians whom they trust. If someone has been involved in Misplaced Pages long enough to be an administrator, I would hope that they would have found individuals that they felt they could turn to for help and advice. Dragons flight 21:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

• I agree completely with Dragons Flight on this matter. I admit that when I do go into the IRC channel it's to blow off steam, and because I know I can find one or two people whose judgement I trust, and who will be willing to listen. I also find that when I'm idling there I'll be approached, now and then, for the same reason (privately, not in the main channel). This is a useful function, but it shouldn't be formalized. As always, of course, this doesn't take the place of official discussion and any action taken on-wiki you should be capable of justifying on-wiki. Mackensen (talk) 21:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• We could easily set up a board where all can read but only admins can chat (just keep the page always protected). Transparent, yet with limited access. NoSeptember 21:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That actually would be less useful than a pure admins-only board (not that I am advocating that, I don't really have a view one way or the other). Any concerns that an admin had about "speaking out" would still exist, while at the same time a non-admin use with an issue or a comment would be unable to post it. Newyorkbrad 21:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Something like this should have no connection to Misplaced Pages, or be controlled in any way by the foundation. The way to have this, if it is to be done, is for someone to go do it. Set something up privately and invite whoever you want to join. Tom Harrison 21:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Admins are simply people with the extra tools. They're not a social group, nor a legitimate decision-making group inside Misplaced Pages. Further social segregation of admins (and this mailing list would be that) is not desirable.Zocky | picture popups 21:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Everybody here has the right to talk to each other offline. I don't see any problem with an admin only mailing list. As I said before, decisions on the wiki should still be based on evidence on the wiki. HighInBC 21:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Zocky on this one. I'm very much against an admin-only mailing list - admins are just people with access to a couple of extra buttons; we're not any better, nor more special, than every other user on Misplaced Pages, and we should not have a super secret mailing list that only admins can see. If it were visible to everyone else, but only admins could contribute (and by admins I mean current admins), I would be less opposed but still uneasy. The thought of arbitrary 'approved users' being allowed to contribute but not everyone, is an idea even worse than an admin-only mailing list. Either everyone or no one, don't start making subjective distinctions. Proto::► 10:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

An opinion

As someone who has trolled other websites (but not here), been mis-identified as a troll here due to associations elsewhere, and been dealt with in a way that would make a troll weep with joy, maybe my input would be of some help.

I think the problem is the attitude towards trolling: that trolls are "enemies" of Misplaced Pages. This is something I'm deriving based of one of Kelly Martin's blog posts. People treat them like enemies instead of just "problems", and this is what happens as a result:

1. They are "informed" - YOU ARE A TROLL. This will only make legit editors pissed, and will only give blatant trolls exactly what they're looking for. Any "subtle" troll is only going to rejoice as well, since if they're being subtle, this is going to cause arguments among the labeller and those who disagree.
2. People get angry - seems to be the biggest problem discussed in this thread. Trolls should just be prevented from disruption, people shouldn't get all angry over them. They end up taking it out on each other if they do. I've seen it happen here, livejournal, youtube, etc., and it's only because people get angry over it instead of just being apathetic.
3. People get paranoid about trolls - causing lots of legit editors to get blocked for looking even slightly suspicious. Or if not blocked, yelled at and goaded into getting blocked.

So the problem isn't that trolls can see the discussion - as a wiki, that's just unavoidable - the problem is how it's dealt with IMO. I've been in IRC with numerous Misplaced Pages trolls of varying degrees and they're not discouraged or stopped by the methods Misplaced Pages admins use - their eyes light up like it's Christmas, in fact. Stop making a big deal out of "FIGHTING" trolling and just prevent them without recognition. WP:DENY looks awesome for this.

And if Newyorkbrad, Daniel.Bryant, and badlydrawnjeff - all people I've seen in situations I've been involved in or IRC - are so "trusted", why not make them sysops? If I wasn't so unpopular I'd nominate Daniel.Bryant right now. BDJ too if it weren't for certain complications. Milto LOL pia 22:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Heh. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I already nominated Jeff, it didn't go down too well... Guy (Help!) 00:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That suggestion runs along the lines of my preference for avoiding the t-word. I'm not fond of the idea of formalizing a cabalish chill space, although sometimes I've toyed with the idea of a humor page. If it weren't for WP:DENY I'd start Misplaced Pages:Dumbest vandals akin to America's Dumbest Criminals for times when I chuckle such as sockpuppets who refer to their blocked sockmasters in the first person and other self-defeating disruption such as this to which I replied with this. Durova 00:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say 80/26 is a very strong showing, especially considering circumstances that bizarrely weren't taken into effect. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh, it was just an offhand remark about non-admins I find generally trustworthy, I also implied even if this thing did hypothetically happen we'd choose then. I wasn't saying like "here are the 3 greatest non-admins on the server". --W.marsh 00:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• I've never requested access to the admin IRC channel because I think it is inherently a bad idea... largely due to the same issues Zocky predicts for an admin mailing list above. I also agree that Misplaced Pages's 'standard response' to problems has gone astray... too often people take pride in 'stomping the vandals and trolls' when they should have been trying to get them to be positive contributors and just blocking them dispassionately when it became clear that wasn't going to happen. A 'place to blow off steam' accepts a priori that it is 'ok' to get steamed in the first place... it shouldn't be. That's what leads to 'meltdowns', 'going off the rails', et cetera... and any sort of 'release valve' for that is going to be a minor stopgap at best. Any time things get above the level of mild annoyance ought to be reason to walk away from that particular issue and do something else. Misplaced Pages is ridiculously huge. I couldn't do everything I would like to here even if I quit my job and worked on it every waking hour. There is always something else people could be doing instead of digging themselves deeper and deeper into a pit of anger. The idea that someone has to 'stand guard' over an article or subject is a poisonous and destructive one... let it go and there will always be someone else to step in and re-assert balance if need be. --CBD 13:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The desysopping of MONGO

Isn't it normal practice, if not policy, for the closings of RfAs to be reported here? Should I be reading some sinister reasons into it not having been done in this case? User:Zoe|(talk) 20:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? It's a couple of sections above this one. --Conti|✉ 20:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Conti beat me to it, but it is right above. Prodego 20:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

what's the hell is desysopping? (My dictionaries do not have this word; I think it is a spelling mistake?) I wish to know what happened? -- ALM 20:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a wikipedia-ism for the most part, although sysop is a longstanding computer term, see the jargon file I suppose. "To Sysop" is to give someone administrator access, which means adding a +sysop flag. So "To de-sysop" (or just desysop) is to remove that access. --W.marsh 20:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

"Desysopping" =no longer one of the Misplaced Pages:Administrators. -- Infrogmation 20:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

When I was newish it took me a few days to figure out that "sysop" is a synonym for "administrator" here. See WP:ADMIN. Newyorkbrad 20:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I apologize. Somehow I missed it while looking thru the Table of Contents. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Understandable, if you were looking for "MONGO", because the case is captioned after Seabhcan. Newyorkbrad 20:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, as I write, both are technically still admins (MONGO, Seabhcan). As far as I can tell, no (legitimate) request has been made on m:Requests for permissions. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

They have been desysopped for about 22 hours now, the notice went striaght into the Permissions archive. NoSeptember 21:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How come it doesn't show up in the rights log? Database lag? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Steward actions are recorded in the Meta rights log e.g. . Dragons flight 21:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It's there. NoSeptember 21:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not an admin anymore...my last admin action was a speedy deletion--MONGO 21:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you like me to block anybody for you, dear? Bishonen | talk 21:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

Anybody I can have a word with, MONGO? Which way Tokyo? Bishzilla | grrrr! 22:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

A little AfD help, please.

A recently new Wikipedian (User:Davnel03) has decided to close some AfD topics despite not being an admin and replaced the articles which have unanimous delete results with the deletedarticle template. I've now told him about how the AfD system works and he's ok with this but I would please like a admin to help clean this mess up. Here are the articles affected by this:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tribute to the Troops
  • WWE Tribute to the Troops
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/RAW is Owen (2nd nomination)
  • RAW is Owen
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/WWE Global Warming Tour
  • WWE Global Warning Tour
  • UK Rampage
  • First WWF UK Event
  • WWF at Royal Albert Hall

Thanks in advance. --  oakster  TALK  21:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Got it.--Kchase T 21:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Deskbanana 21:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou very much. --  oakster  TALK  21:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Where are all the admins tonight?

Speedy deletion isn't working very well tonight. Some blatant attack and nn articles I have speedy-tagged are still awaiting deletion:

• Nob head
• DC Care
• My Case Against God
• American Chronicle

Also the 3RR violation I posted over an hour ago is unresolved - I'm not sure how long that usually takes though. StoptheDatabaseState 00:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The only remaining article of your list above has a {{hangon}} applied, and should go to AfD. Jkelly 00:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

More Bobabobabo

I just received an e-mail from Zoe detailing an email that she received from the latest sockpuppet of this banned user who is once again asking that I be blocked. The text is as follows:

> May you please block the User: Ryulong, due to "collateral damage", I 
> recevived a email from Jimbo Wales to email admins to get her blocked. 
> He has recently been emailing threating emails. I emailed him so he 
> could unblock me, but i recevived a email from him.

After which, there is a bastardization of an actual e-mail I sent this user after I found out she registered under "Ryulong" at the Japanese Misplaced Pages (but thanks to Suisui I have that account now), but with many embelishments. I urge any administrator who receives this e-mail to ignore it, as Zoe had, and simply just block the e-mail from this user who has been harassing me on- and off-wiki now.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that I have blocked the IP 64.111.122.25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) indef as an open proxy on Ryulong's advice (on AIV). I have listed it at WP:OP also to double check. If it turns out not to be one, then anyone feel free to unblock without having to consult me. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 03:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, all that Bobabobabo has been using lately are open proxies because we have blocked her home IP address.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I also received an e-mail containing an attached "message" allegedly sent by Ryulong, which I just ignored because it was so fully out of character. The message which preceded this obscenity-and-Pokemon-riddled document was a plea for me to block Ryulong -- for off-Wiki behavior. I'd forgotten about it until I saw this thread. Don't worry Ryulong, I have no intention of blocking you. :) Antandrus (talk) 05:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I did at one point send an e-mail to this individual at which I was at my breaking point, but it was nothing even close to what she's claiming I've said (I may have dropped the f-word, but not as much as she makes it out to be).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

CSD backlog, again

Now up to 306, which strikes me as a bit excessive. --Calton | Talk 07:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair warning - about sixty-five of those are my {{db-web}} tags. I did a run-through of the Category:Website stubs and tagged any that said "It's a website" and nothing more. I skipped (I hope) any that had been to AfD of had any claim to notability, however small.
152.91.9.144 07:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Do we need a report that CSD is backlogged every morning? It's a time zone thing, and usually gets sorted fairly quickly once people wake up. Guy (Help!) 08:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Neil SookDeo

I discussed this with Naconkantari, but this may need a greater audience.

I caught the edits of an IP, 207.69.137.201 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), quoting some strange book as a reference for his edits to various articles. Then we found Neil SookDeo (talk · contribs), the author of the doctoral thesis and book that he is using as a reference. I've tried to undo his edits (all of which were in good faith) per WP:NOR. However, since another user reverted me, I would like to ask if there is an actual conflict of interest with Neil SookDeo here, as all of his contributions are essentially spamming his book (and doctoral thesis).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Ewlyahoocom/WikiPorn deleted

This page of photos of naked people was deleted from wikipedia, reason: violation of WP:USER not encyclopedic

There was no AfD, it was just deleted.

Before it was deleted User:BlooWilt wrote on User:Ewlyahoocom that:

User:BlooWilt marjority is him and another wikiuser.

User:BlooWilt wrote: "I haven't checked out the rule but I know this folder is breeaking the rules" User:BlooWilt states himself that he hasn't checked out the rule yet, but he has faith (a belief based on no evidence) that User:Ewlyahoocom/WikiPorn is "breeaking" the rules.

So based on the "majority" (2 people) on User:BlooWilt "talk page", he got the user page deleted.

Can someone tell me where WP:USER says that naked people are not encyclopedic?

I have pictures on my webpage, and they are okay, why can't Ewlyahoocom?

Why was there no AfD? Please reopen this page, and then there can be a proper AfD.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that wikipedia allows some nudity, like on the Penis page, or Cum shot page. I want policy please, not opinions. Best wishes, Travb (talk) 09:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed your links. Viridae 09:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It was probably deleted as free webhosting. I disagree- these pages are useful for finding pictures for articles in my experience. An MfD would have been far more proper. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 09:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Your an admin, can you reopen it please, or maybe talk to admin 1ne (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) who deleted it? Best wishes, Travb (talk) 09:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Given that userspace porn galleries are a contentious issue and there was a previous keep/no consensus MfD for this very page (Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ewlyahoocom/WikiPorn), I recommend that it be undeleted and re-MfDed. —Quarl 2006-12-18 09:51Z

As for policy ... Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not censored states that articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content. A user page is not in article space, however, and the applicable guideline is in WP:USER - Your userpage is for anything that is compatible with the Misplaced Pages project - even though this is usually only loosely applied, a page called 'WikiPorn' is of no benefit to the encyclopaedia. Poor process, correct result. Proto::► 09:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. Viridae 09:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that is that valid pages, in user space, can be kept under joking titles. Take a look at how I title my talk page archives, for example. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 09:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that these pages aren't benefitting Misplaced Pages, but a number of vocal Wikipedians apparently want them, and we all know what happened last time someone said (paraphrasing) "I know what's better for Misplaced Pages so screw process" to justify unilateral deletions in userspace. —Quarl 2006-12-18 11:17Z

Maybe we should rename all user subpages with "porn" or something similar in the name so that do not show up when someone searches WP for the word "porn". If few people know a page exists, few will get upset, and the pages can continue to fly under the radar. NoSeptember 13:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Deleted page not appearing in logs?

Dear administrator(s),

A page that I started is no longer there. It was under 'unified performance management'. I have just recreated this page as when I searched for it, it was not found. So I checked the deletion logs and still no trace?

If there is a reason why it was deleted I would appreciate if someone told me why. Also if it was deleted, should it not be coming up in the deletion log?

Thank-you in advance,

perfman

The article is still there: Unified performance management. Viridae 11:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's probably a glitch, the server backend has been having synchronization problems. —Quarl 2006-12-18 11:18Z

On another note, I just added a copyvio tag to the article, it seems to be word-for-word taken from the website associated with it: . Anchoress 11:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Undo?

Eh? --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 10:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

...? Do you have a question? Viridae 11:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

<Sigh> What the hell is the Undo function (which I have heretofore not seen) supposed to do? Is it an admin function? Then why does it not appear to work? --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 11:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 11:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a function avaliable to all users that allows you to undo a specific edit of a page without affecting the rest of the page. To be used for past vandalism etc. It does not always work, if the following change was a rollback to a previous version for instance, you cannot undo that edit. Viridae 11:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Good for fishing WP:SPA linkspam out of articles, in my experience. Guy (Help!) 12:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I must be missing something. Where is that function? Am I stupid? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it either. So you're not the only stupid one, FP - where is this magical new button? Proto::► 14:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Temporary injunction passed in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris

A temporary injunction has been passed in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris. All editors listed as a party to this case are banned from editing Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University until the case is settled.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 11:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

72.177.68.38 email (Titanicprincess)

Just a heads up - got an email from someone saying that 72.177.68.38 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) should be unblocked because it is a school ip, and since I haven't had any contact to my knowledge of the sockusers at this address I assume they are just going down the admin list and emailing them all. Syrthiss 13:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards