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A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on June 27, 2007 and June 27, 2011.

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Motto

From what I understand, the original motto was in Latin and I don't know Latin, but the motto in Italian would be better translated in English as "Liberty is not to be sold for all the gold in the world".MihaiC (talk) 04:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes that's would be a better translation. --Theirrulez (talk) 23:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Article's use of language.

This article needs quite a bit of editing. Parts of it are in terrible English and other parts look like they could have come from Gibbons Decline and fall of the Roman Empire!1812ahill (talk) 22:01, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Coat of Arms

I remember clearly that the coat of arms on this page was this , this is also the official CoA of Dubrovnik even today and it was shown here as well before someone changed it into current version. First let me start by saying that the current coat of arms is not a historical one. In fact it is a result of a wrong interpretation. It is well sourced that the CoA of the Dubrovnik Republic was the old Hungarian royal CoA (barry of 8 argent and gules - Arpad dynasty CoA with 8 red and white (silver) lines) and that the flag was the one with St.Blasius. It was decreed by law since 1360s when the Dubrovnik Republic accepted suzerainty of the Hungarian (and Croatian king) Louis I, all other symbols were outlawed as in the city and also in the republic as a whole. The change of white lines into blue ones was a wrong interpretation that appeared in later period after the republic was abolished due to CoA's with templates within the white lines (it was common at that time to decorate CoA's with various templates and decorative lines) which turned to blue color due to deterioration of the paper and the ink. These first appeared in around 18th century to emphasize to the silver (white) color. Shokatz (talk) 18:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Several Examples: Doors of the Sponza palace (seat of the Republic's govt. till the republic is abolished by Napoleon , CoA preserved in the state archive museum in Dubrovnik , documents of Ragusan consul kept in Portugal (clearly shows red and white lines) , In his book Copioso ristretto degli annali di Rausa (in which he described voting procedure in the republic) Giacomo Di Pietro Luccari (Jakov Lukarić) describes the state emblem/coa of arms of Ragusa (on the voting boxes) as the one of Hungary (page 155), red and white lines . Etc, etc. Shokatz (talk) 23:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems like you're right. If I recall, I only switched the coa because a couple Italian users complained the old one was unsourced (as it was). One request: please insert the sources so we don't have to go through this again. -- Director (talk) 01:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Will do. Do I just insert them in the source section of the image? I was actually thinking of maybe even creating/translating the 'Coat of Arms of Dubrovnik Republic' article from Croatian Misplaced Pages since it is very well written and well sourced. Or maybe to create a subsection on this article? Shokatz (talk) 14:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

My advice would be to create a Coat of arms of Dubrovnik article, since both the Republic and the modern city apparently use the same coa. In fact, I just created one :). Also created the Flag of Dubrovnik article. -- Director (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah well...since you already created them I will see to expand on those. :) Shokatz (talk) 14:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

In European and World History

Removed the section "In European and World History," as its only assertion (that Ragusa was the first nation to recognize US independence) was both not supported by the supplied source (which only says that Ragusa was "among the first") and contradicts the lengthy and well-supported article "US-Morocco relations" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Utuu (talk • contribs) 20:45, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Republic of Ragusa vs. Republic of Dubrovnik

The latter, surprisingly (at least to me), seems to yield more results on search engines (about twice as many as Republic of Ragusa). Same for scholar.google.com. Does that have any bearing on how this article should be named? The only reason why I even compared the search volumes to begin with is because a user implied, while making a revert on another article on WP (Dalmatia), that "Republic of Dubrovnik" is not how it's called in English and that "Republic of Ragusa" is the proper name. 78.0.192.37 (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have 18,000 hits for "République de Raguse" and 8,400 hits for "République de Dubrovnik'...--Lubiesque (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but this is about English usage and the English Misplaced Pages, not about French language. Conventions will obviously differ between languages (with local Slavic terminology not even having a "Republika Raguza" or anything similar). For one, the English Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't seem to have a mention of "Republic of Ragusa" in its article about Dubrovnik, instead it uses "Republic Dubrovnik". 78.0.192.37 (talk) 17:06, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Gbook hits, in this case, is inessential. I don't see a move to "Republic of Dubrovnik" plausible. 21st-century English sources favour Ragusa, while the use of "Republic of Dubrovnik (Ragusa)" and likes is widespread. As per hisorical actuality, "Ragusa" is the name.--Zoupan 17:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

I stumbled by chance upon this article and discussion. I agree with Zoupan. Ragusa is ubdoubtedly the historical name of the city. All tags and official documents visible in the city and dating before the 1900s refer to it with this name. The name Dubrovnik started appearing on documents and tags in the 20th century, when the Republic was no longer existing. Greetings from Dubrovnik/Ragusa! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.72.96.205 (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Being it is an English Misplaced Pages, English results make more sense than Italian. Seems obvious to me. I think changing to Republic of Dubrovnik or perhaps have it in parentheses makes more sense and is fair. The names Dubrovnik and Ragusa coexisted for centuries. Dubrovnik used since the 12th century. Dubrovnik was a name used for a while before the 20th century by citizens there. They are different names for the same city in different languages. Seems kind of like Croatia/Hrvatska. It confuses people often it is the same country or city. And every language has a different adaptation.74.101.190.2 (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Delete

For other side the Serb-Catholic movement in Dubrovnik was a pan-Serb cultural and political campaign in Dubrovnik active at various periods between the 1830s and the interwar period. The group of local Catholic intellectuals, known as Serb-Catholics, espoused a Serb sentiment, who understood to Dubrovnik as a city historically under Serbian heritage.

Before the fall of the republic, nobody talk about the etnicity, The modern concept of nationality, based on ethnic concepts as language, culture, religion, custom, etc., was developed only in the 19th century. For this reason the attribution of a definite "nationality" or ethnic affiliation to personalities of the previous centuries, living in ethnically mixed regions, is often indeterminable; — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.105.114.171 (talk) 17:56, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

"the attribution of a definite "nationality" or ethnic affiliation to personalities of the previous centuries, living in ethnically mixed regions, is often indeterminable" correct, but then why do you want to mention a movement that covered 0,1% od Dubrovnik's population in the late 19th century? That doesn't even relate to this article as this one covers the period of the Republic of Ragusa that lasted until 1807. Tzowu (talk) 18:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this does not even belong to the same period covered by this article. Detoner (talk) 18:11, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Can I get a list of their rulers?

Do they have their own Misplaced Pages page? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 10:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Alexis Ivanov, in these cases it always helps to check the Wikipedias in the related languages (i.e. Croatian/Italian here) as well as the major Wikipedias (German, French, Spanish, Russian). The itwiki has a list: . Constantine ✍ 14:59, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I forgot to check them. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:14, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Banac, Ivo (1983), "The Confessional "Rule" and the Dubrovnik Exception: The Origins of the "Serb-Catholic" Circle in Nineteenth-Century Dalmatia", Slavic Review (Slavic Review, Vol. 42, No. 3) 42 (3): 448–474, doi:10.2307/2496046, JSTOR 2496046; https://www.jstor.org/stable/2496046?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
2. *Goran Mladineo: Prikaz knjige: Nikola Tolja, Dubrovački Srbi katolici – istine i zablude, vlastita naklada, Dubrovnik, 2011., 711 str, Časopis za suvremenu povijest br. 3/2012., str. 800-803
3. Cite error: The named reference Whyte-1961 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

IP edits

Regarding this and this, comments are needed on the material. IP initially reverted with "nationalist propaganda" rationale. Then the IP reverted claiming to have read the sources. I'll alert the relevant WikiProjects (those seen at the top of this talk page) to this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:37, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Quote from source cited within article:

The Serbs and the Slavs of the south were rapidly converted to Orthodox Christianity. The Croats in the north, however, were finally to be won over to the Roman form of the faith by missionaries sent to them by the papacy and the Franks.

From source I believe his edits are correct; although Christianization of the Serbs and the other Slavic tribes also began at this time. should be modified to mention that the southern Slavs were so christianized, not all Slavs. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:31, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the subject, but if those are the only sources, I would argue against including this text. I would be wary of using only Serbian sources here to back such statements. Daß Wölf 18:21, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Iazyges and Daß Wölf, thanks for weighing in. I just wanted more eyes, and especially those more knowledgeable on the topic than me. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:37, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Rampant Croatization of the history of Ragusa

This article, as most of the articles dealing with Istria and Dalmatia, displays a manipulative, one sided, ultra-nationalistic approach by Croatians editors. It is not allowed any attempt to correct blatant lies about circumstances, people and events concerning the history of Ragusa. In the specific, it has been reverted the addition of the corresponding italian names of Ragusan writers who are only described in their croatian version.

This is not congruent with the affirmation:".......Literary works of famous Ragusans were written in both Croatian and Italian...." just above the list of the mentioned writers. If they wrote both in italian and croatian why we should not give also the italian version of their names?

Magnagr (talk) 22:39, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I would urge you to remain civil and assume good faith. The reason you give for adding extra names is not relevant to WP policy nor reasonable -- cf. Franz Kafka who spoke Yiddish as well as German, yet it would add little clarity to include his name in Hebrew script in parentheses wherever he's mentioned. Anyone who's interested in a writer's name in other languages can easily find them at their respective article, if the names in these languages are notable as to be included. Daß Wölf 23:44, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

No offence, but I don't think yours is an appropriate example.

Kafka was a jewish but Prague was not founded and ruled along all its history by jewish. In the Universities of the Austrian empire lessons were not delivered in Yiddish and books were predominantly written in Germans. Jewish were a minority in the Habsburg empire while Italian/Romance/Latin population was not a minority in Ragusa. Surely jewish cultural contribution to Prague was hugely superior to the one given by Croats to Ragusa. The original name and surnames of the Ragusan writers listed in the article were Italians not Croatian.

When it was abolished in 1808 by the Napoleonic army, the small but influential and immensely rich maritime republic left a gigantic archive in which all government documents were written first in Latin, then in “vulgar” Italian and finally in modern Italian. In the daily business of the government and in diplomacy (Ragusa had over 80 consulates in every major European and Middle Eastern city), the official language of the small republic was Italian. Furthermore, at one point the Slavic language – spoken by an ever increasing number of immigrants and refugees – was even officially banned by the Ragusan government.

The mentioned writers should not even be remembered with the croatian version of their names. Result? I am not even allowed to add their italian original family name.

All this boil down to the concepts expressed in my first passage: rarely a reader can come across to such amount of half truths, tendentious presentations, patriotic rhetoric and grotesque nationalistic grandiosity as it happens when dealing with wikipedia articles about Istria and Dalmatia.

Magnagr (talk) 04:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

You're also not supposed to add (习近平) next to every link to Xi Jinping nor (Kaiser Wilhelm I.) next to every mention of William I, German Emperor. Whose irredenta is to blame for that? Daß Wölf 22:51, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I am promoting friendship and mutual understanding among different cultures and my proposal goes in this direction.

Romanization of (习近平) in Xi Jinping is like transforming Nikola Nalješković in Niccolò Nale with the difference that the original name of Niccolò Nale was Niccolò Nale and not Nikola Nalješković.

If a french guy from Marseille whose name is Julien Martin become bilingual because surrounded by north african immigrants and decide to write some books also in arabic, it does not authorize someone to remember him as Junaid Marwazi instead of Julien Martin.

The prevalent culture in Ragusa was italian, attaching only slavic names to people Italian by ethnicity, culture and ancestry is an anomaly and an open provocation.

Magnagr (talk) 01:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't follow your reasoning. You're saying we need to highlight everywhere that Nale/Nalješković was italianised?

I'd also ask that you stop with the insulting insinuations for reasons of civility as well as common sense. Speaking from experience: when you find yourself believing that Misplaced Pages has conspired against your POV, it often so happens that your POV is not as neutral as you used to think. Daß Wölf 17:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Xi Jinping name has been used instead of 习近平 because most of humanity does not understand mandarin and use latin alphabet instead of chinese characters.

Regarding Niccolò Nale there was no need of translating his name into Nikola Nalješković since pure latin alphabet is better known than Gaj's Latin -official version of croatian alphabet was established in 1830, 22 years after the Republic of Ragusa was abolished and 300 years after Niccolò Nale was born - and since Niccolo'Nale came from an italian family and grew up in an italian cultural environment of a city whose identity was italian.

I don't take it personally.

In this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_people_associated_with_the_Republic_of_Ragusa

someone dared also to add the italian (original) version to some people associated with the Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik Nobility). See the names associated with the coat of arms of the nobility from which came most of the writers who are now labelled as croatian. Are they croatian or italian names? do they use both the languages?

https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_people_associated_with_the_Republic_of_Ragusa#/media/File:Stema.dubrovcani.vlastela.jpg

This is in conflict with your position:

"........The reason you give for adding extra names is not relevant to WP policy nor reasonable....."

So I don't think I am doing something unreasonable or breaking WP rules. I am even too good by allowing to keep the croatian version of the original italian name.

Magnagr (talk) 22:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any of this as arguments in favour of keeping both names, but rather arguments for removing non-Italian language names, based on reasons of WP:EXISTS, WP:OFFICIAL (this not backed by sources), assumed (and unsourced) conceptions about the personal life of the link target, etc. None of this carries much weight on Misplaced Pages -- even if it argued in favour of using names in parentheses. As I understood your last sentence, your goal is to only use a single name -- the Italian one -- so I'm not sure why we're arguing adding parentheses at all. Daß Wölf 23:20, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Please don't try to put in my mouth words that I did not say . Unlike you, I am more than happy to keep both the languages.

You are against one of the pillar of WP which is common sense WP:Use common sense.

There are many examples of people related to Ragusa whose names are both indicated in croatian and italian.

The practice of adding names of people in different languages is common in WP, so it would be only your personal decision, and not the general one, to apply the rule of not including in this article the italian version of the writers'names.

I am not trying to add the armenian or vietnamese version of the croatian names but the italian one. Italian culture was the prevalent one along all the history of Ragusa and does not need to be sourced, if you really need sources about that just read my last comment on "The official language was Italian not Venetian".

Moreover, the Charter of Fundamental Rights, an integral party of the Lisbon Treaty, stipulates that language diversity is one of the fundamental values respected by the EU, political and economic union which includes Croatia and Italy.

Magnagr (talk) 04:33, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Names in other languages may be added to the WP:LEAD or discussed in a separate section of the article concerning the name. They aren't appended to passing mentions in other articles. As I said, you're not going to encounter "Xi Jinping (习近平)", "Emperor William I (Kaiser Wilhelm I.)", "Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyła)", etc. unless there's a good reason to elucidate why this person needs to be identified by this name too. For instance, does our featured article Romeo and Juliet state "However, the reference is part of a polemic against the moral decay of Florence (Firenze), Lombardy (Lombardia), and the Italian Peninsula (Penisola italiana)..."? Even so, these non-English names would all be more pertinent to their respective subjects than "Niccolò Nale", "Niccolò di Nale" and other various forms appearing on surviving documents (the idea of an "official" name was rather more fleeting at that time, especially in a bilingual culture, than in the modern world; not to mention "ò" is actually a modernised form of "o'", so neither of those renderings were actually official in the 16th century) are to a person who, as our article states, self-identified as a Croat, wrote a great deal in Croatian language and fought for the recognition of Croatian people and language separately from the "Slavic"/"Illyrian" epithet for non-Romance Dalmatians. Daß Wölf 02:36, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Seems funny to me the other editor doesn’t deem it “ultra-nationalistic” to use Ragusa the Italian dominion instead of Dubrovnik. By their logic that is Italianization. Which was a factor when Venice took over and instilling the Italian language set. One could say they have a bias here with such accusatory language. I’ve seen Croatization, Serbianization and Italianization of the region’s history and citizens. Truth is there was a huge slavic presence there. Mostly Croats. A significant amount of Serbs and Italians as well. With a lot of intermixing. The territory was passed around through so many powers. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 14:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

The official language was Italian not Venetian

Check:

1m.31s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JPag4ujjY8

https://auctions.dreweatts.com/auction-024/itemDetails/797/285788 Magnagr (talk) 23:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit because it wasn't backed by sources, and because the sources supplied here aren't satisfactory to establish the official language. Firstly, these are not reliable sources in the context of the article. Secondly, it seems readers are expected to understand they need to read a certain text appearing in this source, presume that this is written in the official language, and then reckon which language it is. That would be synthesis, a form of original research. Daß Wölf 23:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

It is not my POV

".........The Italian spoken in Dalmatia before that time was not the Venetian dialect; in some parts it had a distinct form of its own, in others it resembled the form into which Latin had passed in the south of Italy or Umbria, and it was only after 1420 that it began to assimilate itself to the Italian of Lombardy and Venetia. At Ragusa it never became Venetian at all, and to this day resembles rather the Tuscan dialect than any other, while the patois of the common people is a curious medley of Italian and Illyric, with traces of rustic Latin, Vlach or Rouman...."

T. G. Jackson, Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, 1887

".....At the present day, at Cattaro or Spalato, along the Dalmatian coast-land on each side of Ragusa, you hear the Venetian dialect; at Ragusa the language is pure Tuscan=italian. St. Blasius, and not the lion of St. Mark, adorns the mediaeval walls and gates of Ragusa...."

Sir Arthur Evans, Through Bosnia and the Herzegovina on Foot During the Insurrection, 1877

".....“Ragusa is built in the Italian style, and assimilates with the Italian towns, both in the customs and language of its inhabitants.......”

Encyclopaedia Metropolitana, Volume 23, 1845

".........It is to the Latins of Dalmatia that we must look for evidences of culture and intellectual progress, and not to the Slavs. ... Ragusa, the Dalmatian Athens, has sometimes been held up as an example of Slavonic culture, but this is only partially the case, for the history of Ragusa is uniformly that of a Latin rather than a Slavonic city. The public acts were recorded either in Latin or Italian, never in Illyric, except in case of correspondence with a Slavonic power...."

T. G. Jackson, Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, 1887...."

As a side note, even in Venice italian and not venetian was the official language:

https://www.iberlibro.com/Parti-prese-Beni-pras-causas-Maggior/16462844026/bd

Yes, it seems that there is a stronger case for calling this language Italian than Venetian, so I'm going to leave that alone for now. However, these sources don't obviously agree the language should be called Italian either. For example, to cite Jackson, "in some parts it had a distinct form of its own" -- that's obviously not a way to refer to Standard Italian. Besides, Jackson was a travel writer who travelled the region a good century after the Republic was disbanded, and during the peak of the Italian irredentism. I'm not sure that what he encountered would've been a good fit for the centuries during which the Republic existed. Daß Wölf 02:44, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Stated in the article that Dubrovnik was Derive by a Turkish word?

I don’t believe I see a source or strong one at that backing this up. The Name had existed before Turks moved into the area, no? The name Dubrovnik of the Adriatic city is first recorded in the Charter of Ban Kulin (1189). It is mostly explained as dubron, a Celtic name for water (Gaulish dubron, Irish dobar, Welsh dŵr, dwfr, Cornish dofer), akin to the toponyms Douvres, Dover, and Tauber; or originating from a Proto-Slavic word dǫbъ meaning 'oak'. The term dubrovnik means the 'oakwood', as in all other Slavic languages the word dub, dàb, means 'oak' and ]] Error: {{Lang}}: Non-latn text (pos 8)/Latn script subtag mismatch (help), dąbrowa means the 'oakwood'. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 14:42, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

POV by some users?

@Number 57:@Number 57: please stop edit warring. You do not have a consensus for such changes. I have given the recent edits good faith but it has been pointed out that your recent edits are POV. False interpretation of citations shows bad faith on your side. Please stop doing that and explain your actions. There is also concern that he provided sources are not RS. Please stop edit warring. Thanks. --Tuvixer (talk) 19:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I would also point out that there is only one non-Balkan source used in these edits by the two users, apart from the one from 1875, and that one was misquoted. Tzowu (talk) 19:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Just a note in observation, it seems the two editors POV pushing in this article are doing so on multiple same articles together. Where one is present, the other appears too. For example the U boj, u boj article. Perhaps just a coincidence? OyMosby (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

1. "Bosna". Leksikon Marina Držića (in Croatian). Miroslav Krleža Institute of Lexicography and House of Marin Držić. 2017. Retrieved 2 March 2017.
2. Whitley Stokes; Adalbert Bezzenberger (1894), "dubron", in August Fick (ed.), Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der indogermanischen Sprachen: Wortschatz der Keltischen Spracheinheit, vol. 2 (4th ed.), Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, pp. 153–154

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