Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:49, 24 December 2006

Content removed by subject.

Request

Chuck, could you start the article on Iain McKay? Or does he not wish it? -- infinity0 22:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Censorship

A revised version of the proposed policy against censorship is now open for voting. Will you kindly review the policy and make your opinions known? Thank you very much. Loom91 12:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Bob Avakian

Hey Chuck, I'm having some trouble at the Bob Avakian page regarding the two sentences of criticism, which some anon supporter of the RCP wants deleted since they are merely "opinion" and not "fact". Of course this info is sourcable (and I sourced to your site in fact) and their reasons are fairly illogical. If you could provide some support, especially some more citations that would be great. The main discussion is here under "anti-RCP propaganda". Thanks in advance. The Ungovernable Force 23:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

C'mon

Hey, please chill out, ok. I'm not out to attack you or your project, I'm just think the criticism should be put it, but please don't turn a content dipute into a personal one. I hope you can see that this is merely a content dispute. I have nothing against you, and I hope you have nothing against me. See my talk page for a more detailed response. The Ungovernable Force 07:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Infoshop

It's not a matter of what I think but what the source says. Alexa does not list Infoshop as the number one anarchist site, so the wiki should not claim it does. --Peephole 19:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you run Infoshop? No. Are you a webmaster who understands anything about Alexa? It doesn't sound like it. You selected one way Alexa categorizes websites, which is one way of looking at popularity, but obviously a bad one because it erroneously lists UK Indymedia as the top anarchist website. UK Indymedia is not an anarchist website. The original statement is factual because when you look at actual anarchist websites that are listed on Alexa, Infoshop is the most popular. Chuck0 19:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That's great that you think that. But Alexa doesn't seem to do so. Please read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability.--Peephole 19:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Then leave it out. Alexa isn't all that accurate anyway. But by any measure of popularity, Infoshop is the most popular on the Internet. Chuck0 20:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

How about this as a compromise? The Ungovernable Force 21:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Just leave out the stuff about popularity. It's obviously pointless to explain the fine points of website traffic, popularity, and how Alexa works to people who aren't webmasters. It's widely known that Alexa isn't that accurate. It relies on people installing spyware into their Internet Explorer browsers in order for it to function. Alexa doesn't have any access to any website's traffic logs. Alexa undercounts Infoshop traffic compared to other political websites. Infoshop has a much younger demographic, which is hostile to spyware and which generally doesn't use IE. In fact, around half of our users use Firefox or non-IE browsers. Alexa doesn't have a plug-in for Firefox, or at least didn't when lots of people started using the service.

Alexa is useful as a rough approximation of website popularity, especially in relation to other websites. According to Alexa, Infoshop has been the most popular anarchist website for several years. That citation which uses a link to Alexa's categories page is NOT a verifiable or accurate citation! As a librarian I can safely say that Alexa's categorization system is not very accurate. Chuck0 22:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. -Will Beback 20:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, then do something about what this person is doing to the entry on me. What am is suppsoed to do if somebody keeps using Misplaced Pages to post defamatory information about me? (removed defamatory accusation) Chuck0 21:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable material, even if derogatory, is permitted so long as it is presented in an NPOV manner. Your own blog contains some of this informaiton, so it is hard to argue that it is utterly false. If you don't want your own blog used as a source then you have the power to delete the blog entries. In ancy case, don't revert war. -Will Beback 21:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

As the subject of an article, you may have an expectation that unsourced derogatory information will be removed. However, possibly derogatory information which is properly sourced can and may be included in the article if it is presented in a neutral manner. This banning matter appears to be properly referenced to a primary source. You have commented on it on your own blog. We need to reflect all points of view without favoring any. And we need to come to agreement. Some other editor has written a different take on the incident. You haven't written yours.

As a general principle, vague statements are more accurate than precise ones. The sources, even yourself, are borderline. I think that we should say as little as possible. Such as, "Munson is an active and controversial member of the online Anarchist community, and has been banned from at leat one newsgroup". Would that be incorrect, or non-NPOV? If not, how would you change it? We can't leave the article protected for long. -Will Beback 10:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: Avoid making any personal attacks, including those in edit summaries. Please treat your fellow editors with collegial respect. There's no excuse for incivility. -Will Beback 10:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm more than willing to be civil to other folks if they stop using the entry on me for their personal crusades. It's good to see that Misplaced Pages has developed some more sensible guidelines for biographies on living persons. As a librarian, I don't feel comfortable editing the entry on me, but I should have a right to correct or delete false and misleading information. If other editors such as Will Beback can make these changes instead of me, I'm all for that. Chuck0 23:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

What info was false or misleading? What is the correct version of events? I don't know. I only know what I read. I suggest that you draft what seems to be a correct version in your view, one supported by your previous blog entries, and then we can present that to the other editors of the article. I suggested some text, above, can you please build on that? I'm sure we can arrive at something that we all agree on, but only if we discuss rather than revert war. -Will Beback 00:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Will, it's not just a matter of what is correct and what is misleading, most of these edits should never have been made in the first place. The people who make these edits are using this entry to conduct personal attacks against me. Now is this kind of behavior acceptable on other biographical entries? Can you find similar content in other biographical entries? Does the Howard Zinn entry include criticism about some minor email list dispute? E-mail lists shouldn't even be seen as credible sources, not to mention "primary" sources for a biographical entry in an encyclopedia. I would also point out that the entry on me is way too long for somebody who is not as famous as other people who don't even have Misplaced Pages entries. Chuck0 00:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

So the issue isn't that the info is false or misleading, but that it is irrelevant? That's a whole different set of issues, some of which are harder to deal with. WP:NPOV includes reference to the need for "balance". In that light, any mention of this incident should be proportional. The draft that I proposed treats the matter as an aside. As for the sourcing, your own blog is considered an adequate primary source for your own opinions. You have expressed opinions on this matter, so your blog can serve as a source. If you delete the info from your blog then there is no longer a reliable source. As for our article, saying that the material may not be included does not get us anywhere. You, as an engaged editor, need to come up with an acceptable alternative. In a few more days I'll unblock the page, and if you haven't come to an agreement withthe other editors then it'll go back to the earlier rever war and no one will be satisfied. -Will Beback 00:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The info is false, misleading, one-sided and unsourced. There is nothing on my blog about this info. My alternative as an editor is that people shouldn't use Misplaced Pages articles as part of their off-Misplaced Pages disputes. If there is serious published criticism about me, then perhaps some of that should be included. The main problem here is that the information added cannot be WP:NPOV. Chuck0 02:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

(If another side were presented then it wouldn't be one-sided.) All I know is what I've read. One of the sources was a forum: not really an acceptable source. Then some links to your blog were posted that mentioned the matter, which is an acceptable source for uncontroversial information about yourself. WP:NPOV requires that we include all significant viewpoints. Virtually every notable person has detractors. Even Mother Theresa. You may recall that some time ago a link to a critical site was posted, and you complained (as I recall) that it wasn't a valid criticism, or that the critic was crazy. I replied that if you had a better critic then that could suffice. But I never heard back. In this situation, I've asked you repeatedly to provide some text to cover the situation but you're not working with me, or the other editors. Now then, as I mentioned before, the only usable sources we've had are your own blog. If there's no mention there then we have to wait until Salon, the NYT, or some other reputable source describes the events. I agree that it makes no sense to record the purported forum actions against an individual absent verifiable sources or relevence. -Will Beback 07:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, even Mother Theresa had her critics, including a book by Christopher Hitchens. I did complain about the link to the article by Kirsten Anderberg, but I also decided to live with that link. Kirsten is crazy like a loon and her article about me is totally false, but at least she put her thoughts into a semi-coherent rant and posted it to her website. If you look at the history of my entry, you will see that In The Stacks removed that link in order to put in even more outlandish and poorly sourced wording. Frankly, I can settle for a revert that brings back Kirsten's article instead of these unsourced allegations. How does that sound? Chuck0 04:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection. I suggest you propose it on the talk page. -Will Beback 08:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I do. Munson would prefer an insane, ungrounded rant against him to sourced discussion of his contentious history. I removed the Anderberg piece because it was a general rant, and had no real bearing on the subject. I agree with additions related to Munson's difficulties with Indymedia and Misplaced Pages as they bear directly on what makes him "notable." Observing a history of fighting online, which is what Munson is "known" for, is neither derogatory or libelous. These are sourced notes, with Munson as the primary author. These are not flattering facts, but that is not the criteria. Considering his extensive history of carrying fights around with him, his contention that he is some kind of victim is laughable. I agree that unsourced, general, or inappropriate personal information should have no place herre -- but a refusal to note his long history (including here on Misplaced Pages) as a kind of contentious provocateur is wrong. -- so the links should go up. Munson makes no argument that they are false. In the Stacks

I am not a "contentious provocateur"! I am like any other person on the Internet who participates in discussions and who states their opinions. I am an advocate of my politics and a critic of others, but that does not make me a "provocateur" nor is this important enough to note in a biographic entry. My motivation has never been that of a provocateur, although I've been attacked by people who can't separate the person from his ideas. In the Stacks is not a credible source in this matter, because he has engaged in personal attacks against me in different forums for many years. He seriously needs to get a life and stop his obsession with me. Misplaced Pages is an inappropriate venue for personal attacks, especially ones that you are trying to turn into some kind of NPOV biographical entries. Chuck0 15:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Michael Albert

There's no point in continuing this discussion on the Anarchism talk page, so I'll continue it here. I admit, my knowledge about Michael isn't coloured by history and is based on hearing him speak and talking to him for a long period afterwards. However - "Michael Albert will say anything to get people to like him." - so he talks about anarchism? That's very strange as anarchism isn't generally regarded as an ideology that makes people like you! He's a long-term associate of Noam Chomsky's, so he clearly has some association with the ideas. "If the Z Foundation is being run on anarchist principles, this would be news to the anarcho-syndicalists." - if what he says is true, the Foundation is non-hierarchical, with roles shifted around and everyone is paid the same amount of money. It sounds like anarcho-syndicalism to me. Do you have information about it not being organised like this? "See, Parecon is an appropriation of anarchist economics without the baggage of anarchism's history." - that's a bizarre statement. Firstly, scroll down to the Other Visionary Texts section - quite a lot of history there. Anarchism is an ideology that spends far too much time looking back. While I clearly disagree with the "anarcho"-capitalists' oxymoronic interpretation of anarchism, I see Parecon as being exactly what it's claimed to be - one suggestion of a vision for the movement. It's not the only possible one and Albert has made clear he's challenging others to come up with their own. Anarchist vision can't all be Fields, Factories and Workshops Tomorrow - we're supposed to be non-dogmatic, new ideas are a must. Robert Anton Wilson's attempts to develop non-euclidean politics I see in the same vein. Anarchism needs new theorists and new theories within the tradition if we going to remain relevant. Donnacha 14:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Rothbard

So you say Rothbard never called himself an anarchist? What's this?: "We are anarcho-capitalists. In other words, we believe that capitalism is the fullest expression of anarchism, and anarchism is the fullest expression of capitalism. Not only are they compatible, but you can't really have one without the other. True anarchism will be capitalism, and true capitalism will be anarchism." -Murray Rothbard, 1970

Rothbard was not an anarchist and does not qualify as one. Please don't make stuff up or pull shit out of your ass. I've been an anarchist for 20 years, run the biggest anarchist website, and have written extensively on anarchism. I have a large anarchist library. Anarchists do not recognize Rothbard as an anarchist. Chuck0 03:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

personal attacks

Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Your_honor&oldid=96211884