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Revision as of 21:03, 10 July 2020 editBinksternet (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers494,034 edits →Proper image to include in Background section for letting readers know what Falun Gong is.: Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox or means of promotion ← Previous edit		Revision as of 21:19, 12 July 2020 edit undoThomas Meng (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,893 edits →Proper image to include in Background section for letting readers know what Falun Gong is.: Reply to BinksternetNext edit →
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	:::] has a bearing on the matter, in keeping the article to a neutral narrative. ] comes into play with pro-Falun Gong editors adding promotional text and images. ] is about promotional words but I think images can be just as promotional. The gist of PEACOCK can be seen at ], which says we should not be trying to promote a cause or advertise for an organization. ] (]) 21:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)		:::] has a bearing on the matter, in keeping the article to a neutral narrative. ] comes into play with pro-Falun Gong editors adding promotional text and images. ] is about promotional words but I think images can be just as promotional. The gist of PEACOCK can be seen at ], which says we should not be trying to promote a cause or advertise for an organization. ] (]) 21:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

			::::{{reply to\|Binksternet}} So you've accused me of having a COI. Consider this: for the Nazi's persecution of the Jews, would you say that I have COI issues simply because I positively describe Jewish people? Or, for the article that I'm editing now, ], a human rights lawyer persecuted in China, would you say that I'm promoting her because her image on the page is beautiful?

			::::By saying that I'm "promoting" Falun Gong only because adherents in the picture are good-looking, you suggest that only ugly and uneducated people practice Falun Gong. This is false. According to David Ownby's study, there are roughly ''77%'' of adherents holding at least a university degree in Toronto (image on the right), Montreal, and Boston. Also, Ownby says: "Chinese practitioners include many engineers, scientists, computer programmers, accountants, and professors."<ref>{{cite book \|last1=Ownby \|first1=David \|title=Falun Gong and the future of China \|page=136 \|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bwqkwx4SWS0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=ownby+falun&cd=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ownby%20falun&f=false.}}</ref>

			::::And "right-wing political forces" definitely won't gain as much all-party parliamentary&congressional support as Falun Gong does<ref>{{cite web \|title=In the House of Representatives, U. S. \|url=https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-resolution/343/text \|website=congress.gov}}</ref><ref>{{cite web \|title=MPs Applaud Falun Gong And Adherents’ Peaceful Advocacy Amid Adversity \|url=https://brandscovery.com/uncategorized/content-2248954-mps-applaud-falun-gong-and-adherents-peaceful-advocacy-amid-adversity \|website=brandscovery.com}}</ref>.

			::::Overall, I think your source of information aligns too much with the communist propaganda. It might be very helpful for you to do a comprehensive research on what Falun Gong actually is using reliable sources<ref>{{cite web \|title=Falun Gong: Religious Freedom in China \|url=https://freedomhouse.org/report/2017/battle-china-spirit-falun-gong-religious-freedom#footnoteref2_1df0256 \|website=freedomhouse.org}}</ref><ref>{{cite web \|title=The Gong Heard Around the World \|url=https://www.haaretz.com/1.5364744 \|website=haaretz.com}}</ref>not influenced by the .--] (]) 21:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

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Persecution vs Suppression

Was raised as an issue on the Falun Gong talk page Talk:Falun_Gong on 1 March 2015. There was no debate and it is now in Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive_39. In addition to Persecution of Falun Gong being the more commonly used term (as mentioned in March), the definition of suppress is not clear when applied to FG. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suppress has 7 meanings of which a number could apply. Definition of persecute - to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religious or political beliefs, ethnic or racial origin, gender identity, or sexual orientation. This seems to be appropriate for FG. But I think discussion should be transferred to main FG talk page as it affects many articles with FG information, including articles about Chinese politicians. Suppression has been replaced in many articles with persecution. Aaabbb11 (talk) 10:29, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

They can be used interchangeably in the article body. Just like practitioner/adherent/devotee, etc. It's really not a big deal.—Zujine|talk 13:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

To me there is a big difference between them which is why I raised it as a topic both here and on the main talk page. I've seen a banner with 1 million killed on it. Falun Gong from China know how many of their FG friends have gone missing, which to me indicates organ harvesting may only be responsible for a small proportion of FG killed.

So far I've met 2 FG who don't know how many times they were arrested in put in jail. This seems to be the most common form of persecution. One had an electric baton used on her face, but was fortunate to have enough money to pay a bribe and got out. Her sister didn't have enough money to pay a bribe and suffered more. The other FG who told me about what happened to her spent 9 months in a labour camp working 14 hours a day 7 days a week eating food we would throw out and only cold showers. She was kept awake for long periods. An attractive young FG woman I know seems to be too traumatized by her experience in China to want to talk about it. I can recommend asking a few FG from China what happened to them in China. Aaabbb11 (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Purgatoryoflife (talk) 00:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)Ok so really Aaabbb11, how come all I have seen in all my years living in China and all those people around me has seen is the fact that people who practice FG tend to die of diseases that could have being cured. and it's not a persecution, it's a ban on an unscientific teaching made by a man with no valid proof of anything that he teaches. So letting people live a lie is the right thing to do? I believe this page needs some edit, same with the FG page. Just to reiterate, when people that you love gets some disease and refuse the proper treatment then dies because they practiced FG, you would want a ban as wellPurgatoryoflife (talk) 00:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

It may be that FG practices are not healthy or sensible, but that does not account for the extreme reaction to FG by the Chinese government. China has exported the persecution of FG members to other countries, with Chinese secret police abducting FG members (Who initially came to the US as students and became illegal residents) in California, for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.1.214.5 (talk) 17:38, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Gao Rongrong was tortured

If you look at the pictures on the Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2187771/Does-Chinas-superb-tolerance-religious-diversity-extend-imprisoned-tortured-Falun-Gong-practitioners.html its pretty obvious that Gao Rongrong was tortured. So we can drop the word allegedly. Aaabbb11 (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

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"The Flourishing of Religion in Post-Mao China and the Anthropological Category of Religion" from Andrew Kipnis was published in 2001, and not in 1979, as the article states it. Change the date of this reference from "1979" to "2001" 137.50.170.247 (talk) 18:19, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Done NiciVampireHeart 21:43, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

No Chinese Rationale

I've noticed that the "Rationale" subsection of "Statewide Persecution" does not list any sources from China itself or its foreign offices which have covered this subject intensively. The Chinese government and the CCP has stated their rationale for banning Falun Gong multiple times to many different countries, however, the "Rationale" section does not include ANY of these translated Chinese sources. For starters a something should be added that states:

"The Chinese government and the CCP have stated that the persecution against Falun Gong is justified because the group denounces the use of science, denounces the ability of any government to rule, promotes the leader Li Hongzi to a messianic and infallible figure, and organizes its followers against the Chinese state apparatus."

This might be a bit condensed, but it reflects the accurate sentiment of the Chinese Communist Party on why Falun Gong is undergoing persecution. At the moment, the rationale listed in the subsection is something guessed at by "foreign observers". The "Rationale" subsection should contain the rationale of the Chinese Communist Party as they themselves state it and not the guesses of "foreign observers". There are multiple sources to back up the aforementioned statement as well, all sites are the official Chinese embassy websites for a variety of countries:

Though some of these pages are older, Falun Gong was outlawed in 1999 and the rationale presented in these articles is likely the same rationale used to ban the group and is likely the continuing framework that the Chinese Communist Party uses to justify its persecution.

Cincinnatin (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

References

@Cincinnatin: The reason for not including the Chinese Communist Party’s rationale is that its sources are generally unreliable as they are state-sanctioned and WP:QUESTIONED sources. In the case of persecution, they are designed specifically to demonize and eradicate Falun Gong. For example, China scholars Daniel Wright and Joseph Fewsmith wrote that for several months after Falun Gong was outlawed, China Central Television's evening news contained little but anti-Falun Gong rhetoric; the government operation was "a study in all-out demonization",

Fewsmith, Joseph and Daniel B. Wright. "The promise of the Revolution: stories of fulfilment and struggle in China", 2003, Rowman and Littlefield. p. 156

This is why the Falun Gong related Misplaced Pages articles do not use CCP biased sources,but use reliable third-party findings for references.--Thomas Meng (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

The purpose of wiki is to give information, it's ok to quote Hitler in an article about Nazi policies and viewpoints, how is this any different? Quoting CCP sources isn't suggesting they are right, it is just showing what they say and leaves space for what response has been made on those statements.Czarnibog (talk) 04:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Czarnibog: Yes, but wiki is not a place to disseminate demonizing propaganda WP: SOAP. The persecution of Falun Gong is different from the Holocaust in the way that the Holocaust is already over and universally condemned, and that its lies have been thoroughly exposed, while the persecution of Falun Gong is still ongoing and the CCP's propaganda still deceives people. So, putting this CCP propaganda here will only give credit to its false narratives and in turn lend support to the ongoing human rights atrocities that it commits.

Also, WP: IS recommends independent findings. So we should keep them.--Thomas M. (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Isn't it possible to use the words The Chinese Communist Party Claims and summarize or paraphrase, surely there are third party statements out there. Refusing to even infer what CCP claims is a form of propaganda that puts Falun Gong in a strange position among fringe religious movements of being validated on exempt from any form of criticism. We don't have to justify any of the persecution to be free of bias, but outright refusing to cover part of the issue is extreme lack of impartial reporting.

Czarnibog (talk) 17:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Czarnibog: I understand your concern. Actually, the statewide persecution section covers this. It quotes Jiang's own words and clearly states the real reason why Jiang launched the persecution based on Jiang's own letter. It says: "On the night of 25 April 1999, then-Communist Party General Secretary Jiang Zemin issued a letter indicating his desire to see Falun Gong defeated. The letter expressed alarm at Falun Gong's popularity, particularly among Communist Party members.".

So this covers the CCP rationale, stated by Jiang himself.

But for the rationale that user Cincinnatin proposed, I think it fits in the category of "demonizing propaganda" that multiple scholars have already identified, which only serves as a coverup for the real rationale behind the persecution.--Thomas Meng (talk) 18:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Proper image to include in Background section for letting readers know what Falun Gong is.

@Binksternet: In your edit here, you deleted a photo in the Background section that has Falun Gong practitioners meditating in it (image on the right) , saying that it's irrelevant to the persecution.

But keep in mind that it's the Background section wherein it introduces what Falun Gong is to unfamiliar readers. The first sentence of this section says: "Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa, is a form of spiritual qigong practice that involves meditation, energy exercises, and a moral philosophy..." So it would be good to include this image as it will help readers know what Falun Gong meditation/energy exercise looks like.--Thomas Meng (talk) 04:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

No. The photo is rah-rah cheerleading stuff, a blatant promotion of Falun Gong. (See, it's so beautiful. Why would anybody persecute these nice people.) I have nothing against meditation and health exercise, but I definitely have something against right-wing political forces masquerading as a religion and dumbing down the world with pseudoscience. Binksternet (talk) 05:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@Binksternet: Those are all your opinions. Also, the photo had been here for a long time before you deleted it. Can you point to the policy that it violates? Do you have a better proposal? You can't just list your own biased, personal, and political opinions to justify editing the page. Please respond with something substantive so that we can continue the discussion --Thomas Meng (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:Neutral point of view has a bearing on the matter, in keeping the article to a neutral narrative. WP:Conflict of interest comes into play with pro-Falun Gong editors adding promotional text and images. WP:PEACOCK is about promotional words but I think images can be just as promotional. The gist of PEACOCK can be seen at Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox or means of promotion, which says we should not be trying to promote a cause or advertise for an organization. Binksternet (talk) 21:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Binksternet: So you've accused me of having a COI. Consider this: for the Nazi's persecution of the Jews, would you say that I have COI issues simply because I positively describe Jewish people? Or, for the article that I'm editing now, Ni Yulan, a human rights lawyer persecuted in China, would you say that I'm promoting her because her image on the page is beautiful?

By saying that I'm "promoting" Falun Gong only because adherents in the picture are good-looking, you suggest that only ugly and uneducated people practice Falun Gong. This is false. According to David Ownby's study, there are roughly 77% of adherents holding at least a university degree in Toronto (image on the right), Montreal, and Boston. Also, Ownby says: "Chinese practitioners include many engineers, scientists, computer programmers, accountants, and professors."

And "right-wing political forces" definitely won't gain as much all-party parliamentary&congressional support as Falun Gong does.

Overall, I think your source of information aligns too much with the communist propaganda. It might be very helpful for you to do a comprehensive research on what Falun Gong actually is using reliable sourcesnot influenced by the Communist regime's propaganda.--Thomas Meng (talk) 21:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Ownby, David. Falun Gong and the future of China. p. 136.
"In the House of Representatives, U. S." congress.gov.
"MPs Applaud Falun Gong And Adherents' Peaceful Advocacy Amid Adversity". brandscovery.com.
"Falun Gong: Religious Freedom in China". freedomhouse.org.
"The Gong Heard Around the World". haaretz.com.

Categories:

Revision as of 21:03, 10 July 2020 editBinksternet (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers494,034 edits →Proper image to include in Background section for letting readers know what Falun Gong is.: Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox or means of promotion ← Previous edit		Revision as of 21:19, 12 July 2020 edit undoThomas Meng (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,893 edits →Proper image to include in Background section for letting readers know what Falun Gong is.: Reply to BinksternetNext edit →
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	:::] has a bearing on the matter, in keeping the article to a neutral narrative. ] comes into play with pro-Falun Gong editors adding promotional text and images. ] is about promotional words but I think images can be just as promotional. The gist of PEACOCK can be seen at ], which says we should not be trying to promote a cause or advertise for an organization. ] (]) 21:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)		:::] has a bearing on the matter, in keeping the article to a neutral narrative. ] comes into play with pro-Falun Gong editors adding promotional text and images. ] is about promotional words but I think images can be just as promotional. The gist of PEACOCK can be seen at ], which says we should not be trying to promote a cause or advertise for an organization. ] (]) 21:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

			::::{{reply to\|Binksternet}} So you've accused me of having a COI. Consider this: for the Nazi's persecution of the Jews, would you say that I have COI issues simply because I positively describe Jewish people? Or, for the article that I'm editing now, ], a human rights lawyer persecuted in China, would you say that I'm promoting her because her image on the page is beautiful?

			::::By saying that I'm "promoting" Falun Gong only because adherents in the picture are good-looking, you suggest that only ugly and uneducated people practice Falun Gong. This is false. According to David Ownby's study, there are roughly ''77%'' of adherents holding at least a university degree in Toronto (image on the right), Montreal, and Boston. Also, Ownby says: "Chinese practitioners include many engineers, scientists, computer programmers, accountants, and professors."<ref>{{cite book \|last1=Ownby \|first1=David \|title=Falun Gong and the future of China \|page=136 \|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bwqkwx4SWS0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=ownby+falun&cd=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ownby%20falun&f=false.}}</ref>

			::::And "right-wing political forces" definitely won't gain as much all-party parliamentary&congressional support as Falun Gong does<ref>{{cite web \|title=In the House of Representatives, U. S. \|url=https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-resolution/343/text \|website=congress.gov}}</ref><ref>{{cite web \|title=MPs Applaud Falun Gong And Adherents’ Peaceful Advocacy Amid Adversity \|url=https://brandscovery.com/uncategorized/content-2248954-mps-applaud-falun-gong-and-adherents-peaceful-advocacy-amid-adversity \|website=brandscovery.com}}</ref>.

			::::Overall, I think your source of information aligns too much with the communist propaganda. It might be very helpful for you to do a comprehensive research on what Falun Gong actually is using reliable sources<ref>{{cite web \|title=Falun Gong: Religious Freedom in China \|url=https://freedomhouse.org/report/2017/battle-china-spirit-falun-gong-religious-freedom#footnoteref2_1df0256 \|website=freedomhouse.org}}</ref><ref>{{cite web \|title=The Gong Heard Around the World \|url=https://www.haaretz.com/1.5364744 \|website=haaretz.com}}</ref>not influenced by the .--] (]) 21:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)