| Revision as of 02:58, 28 December 2006 editSkookum1 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled89,945 edits →Vandalism watch ongoing← Previous edit | Revision as of 11:11, 28 December 2006 edit undoRandy3 (talk | contribs)17 edits note to previous poster: a mind is an awful thing to looseNext edit → | ||
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| Dom emailed the administrators to seek a determination of whether this material is acceptable within the confines of Misplaced Pages. | Dom emailed the administrators to seek a determination of whether this material is acceptable within the confines of Misplaced Pages. | ||
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| --] 01:08, 01 December 2006 (UTC) | --] 01:08, 01 December 2006 (UTC) | ||
| Like all politicians, you accuse "the other" of doing exactly what it is you are doing. Your repeated vandalism of this talk page, censoring other's posts and even the simple placement of the BC Wikiproject tag, is a clear abuse of the Misplaced Pages information open-source environment. Your conduct just in this last 24 hours seems to me to be enough to have your IP address blocked by Wiki, which I will be investigating the proceedings of later today. This article may wind up "protected" (meaning it cannot be edited) once those of its contents which can be restored have been restored. Bornmann's ONLY significance to Misplaced Pages is as a key player in the Ledgegate/Omnitrax/BCRail affair; his career as a Young Liberal is just c.v. material; that he admitted to the RCMP that he bribed government officials is a known fact of the case, and also a conundrum given his application to the bar in Ontario; this is also article-worthy, whether YOU like it or not. '''If you delete this post that deletion will be used as further evidence of your systematic vandalism'''. Not that there's not already enough.] 19:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Sources == | == Sources == | ||
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| ] 10:24, 26 December 2006 (PST) | ] 10:24, 26 December 2006 (PST) | ||
| Hmmmm... it looks like the usual time-on-his-hands gremlin is back. Our funny little friend needs to find a day job | |||
| ] 02:38, 28 December 2006 (PST) | |||
| :That's hogwash; your comments sound a lot like bump from a fellow lawyer who's trying to help Bornmann with his Ontario bar application (his history in BC posing certain difficulties to same...). Bornmann's career as a young lawyer and Liberal Party hack is not of encyclopedic interest; his role as "The Spiderman" in the Ledgegate/Basi-Virk Affair ''is''. And THAT is not a matter of opinion, but of clear and simple FACT; OK, it's rumour, but it's widely published (and un-sued) rumour, backed up by various moles who keep the Victoria press gallery fed with such tidbits (matter of fact I think it was Keith Baldrey who broke that story, ''not'' someone like BC Mary or another blogger, or anyone from the Basi-Virk "side"). It was, from all accounts, evidence he got in the Spiderman caper that was used to shore up the investigation into Basi and Virk which led to the Ledge raids; if you or his other buddies (and it's clear his buddies are actively editing this page, and various shadowy editors are editing the ledge raids page) keep on deleting stuff like him that's actually in the news, '''do you know what that makes you look like?''' Or do they not teach ethics in law school anymore? Oh wait a minute - did I just use "layers" and "ethics" in the same sentence? Not to rag the third-oldest profession, but trying to control what people read and what other people's interests in public affairs are (and you or whomever is wrong that Basi/Virk supporters are "after him"; the BC Mary blog, for instance, is down on ''everybody'' involved in the case, and she like other people critical of Bornmann are just as critical of Basi, Virk and the whole Liberal hoo-hah that's replaced government with P3s. Yeah, politics is politics and "if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen". But from what I can see of the edits to this page, its main article, and the edit history at the Ledge raids page as well as the ] article, there's a pack of lawyers' and lawyer's buddies who are all over these articles intent on keeping the kitchen flooded with cold water. Oh well, do what you have to; it's all about power, after all, and if your own powers aren't enough, invoking libel chill and the power of the courts is I suppose what you were trained to do. Not to reckon with truth, but to control and re-tool it for your own uses,a nd to threaten the hell out of anybody who talks a different line...Either Bornmann is news/encyclopedia-worthy or he's not; without Ledgegate, he's a blip even by Liberal Party professional-brown-noser standards and this article hsould be a candidate for deletion; but it won't be - he's a figure in a major political/criminal case in British Columbia and, sadly for him, ''there's no escaping that'', no matter how many laywers of volunteer censors he can enlist to cover his tracks. Best of luck on the Bar application, though I still can't figure out how a B&E (if he's the Spiderman) can be ignored re unprofessional conduct and "good character". But he's a political party operative - "we don't want tuna with good taste, we want tuna that tastes good" Politics doesn't favour people with good character; it does favour people whose characters "taste good" (to the media, the public, and whomever else is at play in the game).] 09:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Hey Rascalpatrol, and to visitors to this page== | |||
| Other readers here should read my comments on ], who deleted my own posts to this page, plus all the deleted material which I had restored to it which another "Bornmann crony" (or whomever's crony) ] deleted over the holidays. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE in Misplaced Pages to delete other people's posts, not matter what's in them; and rules of citation which apply to the article page do not apply to talk pages. Visitors to this page should make a point of exploring the edit history in order to review the materials deleted by Rascalpatrol AND OTHER VANDALS; admins should be advised that 90% of the content of this article has been deleted by Rascalpatrol and his kind, who are ALL p.r./political operatives.] 19:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Reply to Skookum1== | |||
| Skookum1 is likely simply the latest alias for the frequent and rather libelous poster on this page. Regardless, readers should be aware of the following in regards to the above allegation. No sourced, true or relevant material has been ever removed by this user. Unfortunately this page has at times been used for a purpose that is not even remotely encyclopedic. One must ask why one of the crown witnesses in the BC Rail affair warrants a page, but none of those accused have a wikipedia page. The answer is twofold. First Bornmann is a person of note quite apart from the BC Rail matter. Second, and more telling, this page has become an open mike for people with an interest in the above trial as well as cranks with theories cobbled together from opinion articles/blogs. We simply do not know the facts surrounding the BC Rail matter. We have snippets of information and rumours, but these have no place in an encyclopedia. This will remain the case until the trial takes place. As for remainder of the above post, it speaks for itself and doesn't require a reply. | |||
| ] 14:57, 27 December 2006 (PST) | |||
| :''No sourced, true or relevant material has been ever removed by this user. | |||
| False. Materials removed include links to CBC and other mainstream media reports concerning Erik Bornmann and the rest of the background to the Ledgegate/Basi-Virk Affair, and they were replaced by such banal and self-promotional links as the one for the Liberal Party of Canada, in which Mr. Bornmann is actively involved. If the materials in those linked articles were libellous or false, then any of CBC or CanWestGlobal or the rest of the news agencies are the culpable parties, but to my knowledge they have not retracted any such coverage/reportage on Mr. Bornmann and his doings in relation to the Omnitrax affair and the Basi-Virk investigation. Also deleted was mention of Mr. Bornmann's application to the bar in the form Law Society of Upper Canada, about which there are significant questions concerning the published admission by Mr. Bornmann (and not just in blogs, but in CanWestGlobal papers and CBC coverage) that he sought to bribe public officials (on behalf of Omnitrax, as I recall). Also removed were posts from the talk page made by others, including most recently myself, which were not rascalpatrol's to remove (whether he is or is not Erik Bornmann). As for the Basi and Virk pages I remember at one time they were NOT redlinked, i.e. articles existed but I did not read them; why they are missing is a matter for related investigations by Wiki admins; the notion that the absence of one principal in the affair should mean that the other should be able to maintain a puff-piece c.v. on himself that makes no mention of the reason that he is in Misplaced Pages at all: because and specifically because of Ledgegate, ''and for no other reason''. And speaking of yourself in the third person (since JJGardiner just identified you at the top of this page) as in ''"First Bornmann is a person of note quite apart from the BC Rail matter."'' from the above post, which is more than self-serving, it's syrupy. And no, Mr. Bornmann, you're not a person of interest simply by being an aspiring lawyer and Liberal Party up-and-comer, not even as a consultant; your only importance in relation to these roles is how they fit into the Ledgegate Affair. And yes, we don't know the details until the trial begins because of the ongoing obfuscation and secrecy around the proceedings. I am not a partisan poster but a vigilant citizen who's all too aware of big-party screwing-around with the facts, and the whole p.r. game of "redeeming" and "rebranding" people and "controlling information". Libellous? Sue the CBC and Global, then; don't threaten citizen-editors on Misplaced Pages because you don't want the LSUC to know this or that, or because you only want this to be a c.v. page on your "notable" self. Self-conflation is a vice of all politicians, and their hangers-on as well.] 23:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Restoring deletion made by Rascalpatrol== | |||
| Contrary to rascalpatrol's protest that he has not deleted anything relevant, I am restoring one of his deletions to this talk page, which was by IP address user 209.121.92.12: | |||
| ===LSUC Hearing=== | |||
| Why is there nothing about the Law Society of Upper Canada hearing into his conduct? Apparently, it's been adjourned, but it was scheduled for November 21: http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/hearings_nov06.pdf. ] | |||
| :Similar material has been removed repeatedly from the main article. Other deletions by rascalpatrol will be further documented in this section as they are discovered (despite his protests that he didn't delete anything).] 00:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| === Restoration of post by Riley Smith deleted by rascal patrol: "Spiderman" === | |||
| If Mr. Erik Bornmann is widely known to have the nickname "Spiderman" why can't we post it on this site? | |||
| Furthermore, there seems to be a concerted effort to change the documented history regarding Erik Bornmann. His "activities" have become a manipulation of the facts. ] | |||
| ==Restoration of post by Bolivar2036, also deleted by rascalpatrol== | |||
| ===Censorship and abuse of wikipedia=== | |||
| - Some users continue to delete all mention of Bornmann's involvement in the legislature scandal. Once again, there is no point in Bornman(n) having a wikipedia page if this information is censored from the public. I submit that information about Bornmann's work with children is totally irrelevant. Misplaced Pages is not to be used as a personal blog but as a source of reliable information for the public. ] | |||
| ==Presence of unknown-country IP address user== | |||
| During my review of this and related pages (] among them) I've noticed the following IP address: 189.174.130.147 . According to all my IP address locator services there is no country or location associated with this address. Other IP addresses, particularly in the BC Legislature Raids article (where ] redirects now, instead of here), are from Ontario and Quebec and, one wonders, why is the biography of a British Columbian suddenly of so much interest to intervenors from the Frozen East, given the fact that you ignore us about almost everything else?] 01:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Material deleted by rascalpatrol; unknown origin as yet=== | |||
| Misplaced Pages guidelines are that bios should be for persons of interest or significance. The only reason Bornman(n) is a person of interest is because of his very high-profile involvement in the BC legislature scandal and ongoing case against David Basi and Robert Virk. I think it violates Misplaced Pages's principles that some users continue to try to delete all mention of the scandal and just give this sterile bio of some 30 year-old law student who used to be in cadets. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 01:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> | |||
| ===Posts by Lebrun and Vendetta87 deleted by rascalpatrol=== | |||
| Thats fine, but you'll notice that even in Bill Clinton's biography, that Whitewater are mentioned. When evidence contradicts what has been raised by the RCMP, then add it, but don't sabotage info that is public and widely known now. ] | |||
| I think that to not mention the scandal and police investigation of Erik Bornman is extremely partisan. There is a little reason to have an entry about Mr. Bornman without mention of his involvement in the case against Basi and Virk. Without this information, it appears very much like someone is writing their own wikipedia entry, which is of course counter to everything this medium is attempting to achieve. ] | |||
| ===Restoring post by ]=== | |||
| I am more than a little upset at your suggestion that I did not act in good faith in submitting the article to be reviewed by the administrators. This was done initially in response to an assertion by an unknown poster that what was contained in the article was "possibly libelous". Again, the sources for the content on this article in relation to the raids are well known Canadian newpapers and one newer online newspaper. My concern over censorship related to the almost complete elimination of anything in the article that related to the raids, even though, again, Bornman is or was a central figure in the raids - a central figure being someone whose residence was searched by the RCMP and who was named in the Informations to Obtain. You do not need to be charged with a crime to be a central figure. But you are when you name is linked again and again in newspaper coverage linked to the particular news issue. Few would dispute this. If Santa Claus had his office searched for documents in connection with the raid, then I would say Santa also would be a central figure. | |||
| I could have started with a general article on the raids, however, this decision was not made simply for expediency - the idea initially was to finish this article, then move on to the next article on Mr. Basi or other key players. You have to start somewhere. The idea was never to focus just in on Mr. Bornman. Frankly, the more interesting article deals with the other principles...this one was supposed to be the easiest and the most straightforward. I had in front of me a number of longer articles about Mr. Bornman from the Sun, the Victoria Times Colonist and the Tyee. As well, there are certainly individuals that have written critically about certain actions he took while president of the BC Young Liberals. Some of this has come from non-mainstream media outlets, but the information presents valid criticism...and is corroborated with statements made on other sites, and in the case of the hotel issue, with an article in the Tyee. Anyways, I am not contributing anything more to Misplaced Pages... Even when information is drawn from reputable sources (such as the Vancouver Sun) this is simply erased or glossed over. Its a nice experiment, but overprone to revisionism...at least in regard to political actors. Dom 3:03, 25 March 2006 EST | |||
| AS WELL, I am not sure what user 72.57.71.225 is talking about when he or she says that all searches related to the BC Raids are forwarded to this page...there was no maliciousness here...this was an accident when I attempted to create a new "more generic" page on the raids. Anyways, like I said, its not worth the time. And you have no idea who I am - like I said, I was just trying to complete a piece of work on a very interesting event that occurred in BC politics. If I ever got finished this one, I might have moved onto the BC Ferries fiasco or something like that. But of course, then I would be fighting with revisionists on the left. You can't win here.] | |||
| ===Restoring earlier post by ]=== | |||
| March 22, 2005 | |||
| I should have made the sources clearer in this article and the caveats more explicit, though I thought they were. If anyone wants to clarify some of the gaps in information then please do so. For example, it would be interesting to know why there is such a huge discrepancy between the Informations to Obtain, which seem to suggest Mr. Bornman was closely linked with the BC Rail aspect of the case, and the later admission by the Special Prosecutor that he was not being investigated. At least one media source has suggested that this indicates that some sort of a deal was worked out between someone, the media source suggests Bornman, and the Crown. It is unclear from the article why this suggestion is made, though it may relate back to the initial information received in the ITOs and those latter statements that "no investigation was going on in relation to Mr. Bornman". Anyways, some clarification would be useful on that matter. | |||
| And I am sure he has a good side given that he is a Liberal supporter. So feel free to fill in some of those details. Unfortunately, the papers focus exclusively on his links with the Raid. | |||
| Anyways, ''as for the threat that some of the statements made in earlier versions of this article could potentially be construed as Libel'', all the comments made in here (and elsewhere) can be attributed back to the Victoria Times Colonist, the Vancouver Sun, the CBC, or the Tyee. Also notice that I never meant to imply that Mr. Bornman had been charged in any way. I am not sure if this is a threat, but rest assured these papers would line up to be involved defending a case like this. However, if this is what you would like, feel free to ask for my contact information, it'll save some time.] March 22, 2005 | |||
| ===Post by 24.69.167.172 (Nanaimo) restored=== | |||
| FYI (all) - I have reviewed the postings of “Domperignon” and noticed that he has overlooked two important facts: | |||
| 1. The Information to Obtain referenced by “Domperignon,” which was drafted in 2003, was finally released in mid 2004 with a clear statement from RCMP and Crown Prosecutor that Bornman (along with many other politically active British Columbians named in the 2003 Information to Obtain) was NOT a subject of the ongoing investigation. | |||
| 2. The investigation mentioned is now complete (as of December 2004) and three individuals have been criminally charged in relation to that investigation (none of which are Bornman). | |||
| “Domperignon” has pasted together a creative, but inaccurate collection of blog entries and opinion pieces to support his proposition. To what end? We can only speculate. | |||
| ==== Re-reply ==== | |||
| At no point in the article was it ever suggested that Bornman was charged or convicted of a crime in relation to the Raid at the Legislature, only that he had been investigated--such as having his home searched--by the RCMP. This in itself is newsworthy and interesting when you are linked closely to the Leadership team of the then Prime Minster. | |||
| As for the "creative, but inaccurate collection of blog entries and opinion pieces..." Does this then mean that Cpl. Cowen lied in his Information to Obtain about the actions of Mr. Bornman in relation to the two principles? Both Andrew Coyne of the National Post and the Vancouver Sun reported Cpl. Cowen verbatim. | |||
| Again, my interest in the issue is simply one of tying together the various pieces, much like a puzzle. It is clear that apart from the principles charged that Bornman and the rest were not connected in the drug issue, but that issue did apparently open the door to an investigation into actions going around BC at the time, unrelated to drugs, but which could call into question actions of individuals related to the government in power. | |||
| That his actions as Young Liberal President were so colourful, simply adds to the interest. | |||
| Anyways, we'll see how it all plays out. There are enough people involved that information will leak from somewhere. | |||
| Cheers, | |||
| Dom | |||
| ===Restoring post by ] deleted by ] (Montreal) === | |||
| I reverted the changes made earlier. I am not sure who erased the search warrant information but it is valid and factual and reflects the best known knowledge of this individual's involvement in what has become a rather important event in British Columbia, Canada. I think it is also important to mention that it was not only this person's place who was searched but others, and that he is not the main focus, but rather two ministerial assistants are. I am afraid the cat is out of the bag on this one... if the CBC is carrying it, you can be sure that it is factual and the sources are checked. Mme. Lebrun.April 5, 2006 post restored by ] 01:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Restoring post by 24.202.126.225 (Sharon Rosie=== | |||
| I removed the editorializing about tactics used during the Paul Martin leadership campaign. Let's leave that to the pundits and keep encyclopedias about the facts. I also removed the Tyee link given that the author is a well known NDP political pundit. Sharon Rosie <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 01:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> | |||
| ===Restoring reply to Sharon Rosie by ]=== | |||
| I think the information is pertinent and factual. Some people are trying to duck the issue and ignore the fact that a body of evidence has been formed by the RCMP describing Mr. Bornman's activities. Even at trial, this will be evidence. And it will be entered into the trial record and will be reported here and linked here when the trial is done. If the judge finds that the evidence does not link MR. Bornman or that he did not make the payments, then that should be reported here as well, but until then...it is a FACT that the police placed evidence of his activities in the ITOs...which are now public documents. Darkfalz. post restored by ] 01:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Most posts now restored=== | |||
| Because of the complicated edit history of this page, not all material is easily sourced and sometimes it's just a rewording; but all deletions that I can find by rascalpatrol and others for this page are documented above, as I've been able to sort them out....now for the edit history of the main article.] 01:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Advice for Bornmann== | |||
| Hey look, man, you're obviously a young, ambitious guy. But let me give you some unasked-for political advice. Denying the existence of things others know to be the truth is NOT a way to gain the public trust, and trying to suppress information is not a savoury political activity, although it's all too common. If you want to get some respect, let others have their say and don't try to silence them, either through deletions here or through libel chill. If you didn't want a public profile, you should never have entered public affairs. Period.] 01:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Deletions from main article by rascalpatrol== | |||
| Contrary once again to rascalpatrol's pretense that he didn't delete anything, here's material inputted by Bolivar2036 (or another user earlier?), whom rascalpatrol accuses of being "one of the crooks" and in cahoots with "those criminaly charged". There is some POV content in Bolivar2036's material, but the information itself is valid although it could be put a little more neutral (e.g. the citation of potential federal salaries is tabloidish tub-thumping). Because this edit is more of a rewrite than a deletion I am posting both versions:4] 01:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Bolivar2036's version: | |||
| '''Erik Bornmann''', LL.B, B.Comm. (b. ]) is a key Crown witness in the upcoming trial of David Basi and Robert Virk, two BC Liberal aides accused of accepting bribes in exchange for government information about the sale of BC sale. It is alleged that Bornmann was the lobbyist, with close ties to the BC and federal Liberals, who offered the bribe to Basi and Virk. Bornmann is former consultant and founding partner of Pilothouse Public Affairs, which was subject to a search the same day that the RCMP raided the Legislature building in Victoria in connection with the Basic and Virk case. | |||
| Comparison of rascalpatrol's revision of this section: '''Erik Bornmann''', LL.B, B.Comm. (b. ]) is a former consultant and founding partner of Pilothouse Public Affairs. Incorporated in 2001 Pilothouse Public Affairs Group grew from a small company to become one of the leading communications and government relations in British Columbia. | |||
| ===Material on BC Ledge raids as deleted by rascalpatrol=== | |||
| ====The Scandal (BC Legislature Raids)==== | |||
| Erik Bornmann was a registered lobbyist with Pilothouse Public Affairs, a company he operated with Brian Kieran, when in December 2003 his Vancouver apartment was searched in conjunction with a wide-ranging police investigation. According to political commentator Bill Tieleman, writing about Bornmann in a 2005 article: | |||
| "The search-warrant "information to obtain" or ITO released by police in September 2004 claimed that Bornmann offered Basi and Virk a benefit -- help in obtaining $100,000-plus jobs with the federal Liberal government -- in exchange for obtaining confidential information about the BCRail deals" (Spiderman in a Web of Intrigue , The Tyee.ca, May 10, 2005). | |||
| Despite Bornmann's apparent implication in the illegal activity of offering an inducement, he has yet to face charges and will appear as a witness for the Crown. While involved as a key player in one of the most high profile cases of alleged government corruption in B.C. history, Bornmann has been studying for a career as a lawyer. Bornmann, who added an extra 'n' to his last name after moving to Ontario, will have to face a public hearing regarding his character before being admitted to the Law Society of Upper Canada. (material restored by ] 01:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==More mainpage deletions/revisions== | |||
| More questionable deletions/edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Erik_Bornmann&diff=45004775&oldid=44999334 which was too complex to sort out, other than posting both versions as above. ] 02:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Similarly a major deletion by ], whose complete total of five Misplaced Pages contributions are all to do with this page: | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Erik_Bornmann&diff=80516501&oldid=77814870 | |||
| ==Vandalism watch ongoing== | |||
| Now that I've replaced (most of) the partisan edits, although I haven't dealt with the overall "soft soap" tone of the article, nor re-introduced the deleted sections (quoted here only for now), plus all the deleted External links ''and then some'' (some gleaned from the ]) I'm kinda tired and need to have a lay-down. No doubt within hours rascalpatrol or another Bornmann crony will try and delete all this stuff. Remember, though - three strikes and you're out. Three deletions by the same user are an automatic suspension; I suppose you guys could shop it around for your cabal, but I and other regular BC wiki editors who have been made aware of the vandalism of this page will be restoring things as soon as you delete them, or within hours; gee, if you all delete something three times each then we can block ''ALL'' of you...and THAT will be newsworthy, especially to someone like Tieleman.....] 02:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 11:11, 28 December 2006
 | Biography Unassessed | ||||||
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Dom emailed the administrators to seek a determination of whether this material is acceptable within the confines of Misplaced Pages.
Problematic content
I've removed some potentially problematic sections from this article, following discussion with other admins on IRC. The sections involved make some serious allegations, and are largely unsourced, sourced using sources not allowed on Misplaced Pages (blogs and mailing list archives, for example) or sourced to opinion pages whose accuracy is at least questionable. If some more reliable sources can be assembled, please do so, but please discuss any major changes here on the talk page. --bainer (talk) 08:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- TheBainer - thank you for making this edit, the piece had become malicious. I think you will find that the history of "Domperignon" and his IP "24.69.167.172" are filled with examples of an intent to rewrite history through revionist edits targetted at a select few people. Despite his recent attempts to mask his IP and change his user profile I believe I have been to determain the identity of this person and I am confident that their political axe grinding has little place on WiKiPediA. An example of this inappropriate behaviour is the forwarding of all Misplaced Pages searches for "BC Raids" to this profile. (This should be changed too) —This unsigned comment was added by 72.57.71.225 (talk • contribs) .
- FYI (all) - I have reviewed the postings of “Domperignon” and noticed that he has overlooked two important facts:
- 1. The Information to Obtain referenced by “Domperignon,” which was drafted in 2003, was finally released in mid 2004 with a clear statement from RCMP and Crown Prosecutor that Bornman (along with many other politically active British Columbians named in the 2003 Information to Obtain) was NOT a subject of the ongoing investigation.
- 2. The investigation mentioned is now complete (as of December 2004) and three individuals have been criminally charged in relation to that investigation (none of which are Bornman).
- “Domperignon” has pasted together a creative, but inaccurate collection of blog entries and opinion pieces to support his proposition. To what end? We can only speculate. —This unsigned comment was added by MildlyAnnoyed (talk • contribs) .
Ok, sorry for the slow reply everyone. A few points, firstly, could everyone remember please to sign your posts on talk pages? It makes it much easier for everyone (particularly outsiders) to follow the discussion. As to the issue at hand, the reason I removed much of the content here was because it was essentially unsourced. This presents a particularly serious problem when the content discusses such a serious topic as this, and when the content is inserted into an article about a person. For a more detailed explanation of why this is a problem, see Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons.
Note that although I removed the content, there is no problem covering the raids in Misplaced Pages, provided that all content is verifiable and provided that reliable sources are cited. I have started a new page at British Columbia legislature police raids scandal, and I encourage everyone to help make that an excellent article (the article uses the <ref> reference system, see m:Cite/Cite.php for an explanation of how it works).
Finally, there should be no more edits to this article about this subject, at least until the main article on the raids scandal has reached a comprehensive standard of coverage. Please direct all your edits to that article. Thank you. --bainer (talk) 00:54, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the editorializing about tactics used during the Paul Martin leadership campaign. Let's leave that to the pundits and keep this encyclopedia about the facts. I also removed the Tyee link given that the author is a well known NDP political pundit.
I also question the appropriateness of including snippets of unproven allegations from police warrants. Again, this is an encyclopedia, not a compendium of breaking news about Bornman. I would suggest that we wait until all the information is out and allegations are proven or disproven before we start including them in a biography as fact. It is entirely appropriate for the CBC to report on the contents of the warrants...it was news. But this is an ongoing story where new information comes out daily. Given that, it is difficult to give a definitive account as one would expect from an encyclopedia.
I am worried that the objective here from certain posters is to write the most negative bio of Bornman rather than the most accurate.
--Sharon Rosie
Allegations, even when made by police, are still allegations. Is the new standard to add, in everyone's bio, everything they are accused of -Guilty or not? - Hammerhead
==
Erik Bornman is presently articling in Toronto, Ontario. He is student member of the Law Society of Upper Canada.
Name Confusion
I gather that Bornman (with one N) was a professional name that he used. Bornmann seems to be the family name (google his brother Roy) and it is also the name that Bornmann uses now (according to his link) and would seem to be his legal name also. I suspect that it always was. So I'm going to move (rename) the article to reflect this. --JGGardiner 19:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Slander & Harrassment
Some users continue to put Misplaced Pages at risk by posting information on the "Erik Bornmann" that is simply untrue. Typically this information is sourced to political blogs and or commentators. Bornmann is Crown witness and it is evident that individuals either sympathetic to those that have been criminally charged or subscribing to different political views are attempting to ruin his credibility by making slanderous and outlandish edits to this page. This is similar to the type of activity we've seen on other wikipedia bios for political figures. This is not a court nor the floor of a legislature and these posts have no place here.
Pilot House
So what happened to Pilot House? The intro says that it became a leading firm. Since it was created only five years ago, one think that was still the case from reading the article. Is it? Does Bornmann have any involvement with them? The article is rather confusing to read because it is out of chronological order. --JGGardiner 18:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Crown Witness
I am disturbed by the fact that this has become a forum for cronies of those that have been criminaly charged to attack an individual that has come forward to testify on behalf of the crown. Misplaced Pages must be concerned by the fact that the encyclopedia is being abused in this way. I encourage others to remain vigilant in preventing this continued abuse.
--rascalpatrol 01:08, 01 December 2006 (UTC)
Sources
I recognize that not everyone understands the nature of the information available or processes associated with the BC Rail trial, but until the trial there is no certainty about the facts relating to this matter. This is the case even though theories are often tossed about in political blogs and other opinion pieces and then inappropriately added to this site. The bottom line is that unless someone has access to information currently subject to a court sealing order, they do not have the full story. -- an regular visitor to this page
Editing
Things seem to be a little heated here so I just want to remind everyone to keep things civil. Also, it isn't cool to edit someone else's comments. You really shouldn't edit a comment, other than your own, unless it is truly problematic (offensive, threatening, etc). Thanks everyone. --JGGardiner 04:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think "cool" matters much to these guys. I have nothing against Mr. Bornman, but I added a comment here that included a link to the Law Society of Upper Canada web site's information about its proceedings against him. My comment was removed. I just recalled this case while reading a Globe and Mail interview with Virk and Basi of legislature raids fame. Bornman is only notable for his involvement in the raids--quaere whether he would merit inclusion in wikipedia if it was not for his involvement. To have nothing about the raids in an article about him is a major oversight.
The above poster (who posted on Christmas day :( ) protests a little too much. He or she should also check out Misplaced Pages's policy on opinion articles. Opinion articles are not verifiable content and do not belong here. I have reviewed this page and am satisfied that Bornmann has an accomplished and varied, although still young, career, which is notable for its contribution to the Liberal Party of Canada and BC student politics. This page is not out of line with other Misplaced Pages entries. Given the traffic to this site I'm sure Bornmann would prefer if this page was taken down, but I think it should stay. I think the above poster is a little confused as to the facts surrounding the so called raids. Bornmann is a witness for the authorities, so we will not really know what his role is/was until he testifies at the upcoming trial. Speculation as to what might come out at this trial and opinion is not encyclopedic content.
SaintNickIX 10:24, 26 December 2006 (PST)
Hmmmm... it looks like the usual time-on-his-hands gremlin is back. Our funny little friend needs to find a day job
Randy3 02:38, 28 December 2006 (PST)
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