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Religious perspectives on dinosaurs

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Religious perspectives on dinosaurs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I nominate the Religious perspectives on dinosaurs article for deletion for the following reasons:

1. The first section mentions how this issue is inextricably intertwined with evolution; really, this article is simply a part of Creation-evolution controversy and is largely covered there.
2. Dinosaurs in the Bible is not that important; it isn't very prominent, and seems to simply be a duplicate of rather unreliable stuff from the Behemoth article.
3. Dinosaurs according to the metaphorical take on various scriptures doesen't really say anything at all and is totally unsourced.
4. Dinosaurs in Young Earth Creationism is already covered in Young Earth Creationism and this section adds nothing not said there.
5. Earth created with age's only source is a site criticizing the viewpoint, and again, is covered by various creationism articles.
6. Jehovah's Witnesses section is already covered in Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, and again, is simply an outgrowth of rejection of evolution – they believe dinosaurs are ancient, they simply don't believe in evolution, and I'm not sure if this is independently notable.
7. This page is essentially fundamentalist Christian perspectives on dinosaurs, and no one has added any other religious perspectives to the article even months after a call for them to do so.

If this article IS deleted, being a subarticle of the Dinosaur article, some of it would need to go into that article. I think a simple mention that the antiquity of dinosaurs is rejected by young earth creationists, and those who reject evolution don't believe in the notion that dinosaurs are the ancestors of modern species. As this is basically all the article says anyway, and we can simply link to Creationism and/or creation-evolution controversy in the section, I don't see any reason not to do this. It is not very important to the Dinosaur article, and as it is sufficiently covered by creationism and related articles I see no need for this article, as it isn't really notable in and of itself. Titanium Dragon 10:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. There's nothing in this article which isn't covered in the various others on creationism. Tevildo 12:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Merge any useful content to related articles, otherwise delete. Dinosaur doesn't need an extensive section on it - it's a scientific article, not a religious one. Hut 8.5 12:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Merge whatever is useful to Dinos and delete the rest Alf photoman 15:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Come on... this is purely speculative. Misplaced Pages is not a church, it is a place for facts and fact is that dinosaurs predate mankind by a wide margin. Dinosaurs in the old testament? Are you kidding me? The people who wrote the old testament had little if any knowledge of dinosaurs at all. MartinDK 15:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• DELETE How embarassing for us all that something like this that isn't based in knowledge and fact would appear in an encyclopaedia. Brian1975 15:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete junk. Danny Lilithborne 20:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above reasons. Also, don't merge any of this into the Dinosaur article; that article is about actual dinosaurs and scientific information concerning them. We don't need religious speculation in that article. --The Way 21:06, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep So I'll comment, since I created the article originally, and since I've been one of the core editors on the Dinosaur article since January 2006. Basically, there were around two years of constant tussling over the presence and nature of a religious views paragraph in the main article on Dinosaurs (check that article's talk archives to see what I mean). Relocating the content to the Religious Perspectives article was a compromise solution, and one that has almost entirely prevented subsequent conflict in the parent article.

Would I personally prefer that "religious perspectives on dinosaurs" not be a topic covered by Misplaced Pages? Surely; I also personally think that being overly inclusive is not a useful exercise.

However... the presence of this article has contributed in a significant and very positive way to the quality of the parent article since I started editing it in January 2006. Christian-viewpoint editors -- who are legion on Misplaced Pages, and who might have been tempted to add to the Dinosaurs article, as happened constantly prior to the creation of the religious perspectives fork, have instead worked to improve the sub-article (where the content is more appropriate). And the content IS appropriate, I should emphasize -- it's reasonable to include significant minority perspectives about dinosaurs in Misplaced Pages even if they aren't "scientific."

If the religious perspectives article is deleted, we can look forward to many more disagreements over the addition of religious perspectives information to the parent article... Killdevil 02:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, that's not a reason to keep an article. Yeah, defacement is annoying, but really, I don't even think there are that many even looking at the article; they've probably all moved onto Evolution, Noah's Ark, Pope Benedict XVI, and similar articles by now. Bowing down to trolls is not a good policy, though, and we have to keep the standards up. And if we link to the creationism and similar articles, won't they be diverted there anyway? Or we could just remove it as irrelevant junk not supported by RSs. Titanium Dragon 04:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete OR Keep, not Merge with Dinosaur. I don't care wheter this article stays or goes, but I strongly oppose merge the content back into Dinosaur. The reason this article was created in the first place was to keep the embarrassing, barely-relevant creationist perspectives on dinosaurs out of the main dinosaur article. Any attempts to integrate this content back into that article will be reverted immediately by the editors of Dinosaur who have been content with the existance of the article as a comprimise since last June. Dinoguy2 15:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I fully understand the situation you are experiencing. However, granting these people their own article to continue this nonsense is not the way to deal with vandalism of the Dinosaur article. If your article is vandalized again they should be warned/blocked/banned. I am saying this to you in full respect and understanding of your situation but we need to be firm on this. People who vandalize by adding nonsense must be blocked, not granted their own article to keep soapboxing. MartinDK 16:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep to preserve the intergrity of the Dinosaur article. There is no question that Misplaced Pages should report on the scientifically nonsensical and misguided attempts of some religious groups to discredit the established fossil record. The article makes clear in a neutral manner the fact that these movements place themselves in contradiction to entire fields of geology and biology. The existence of such views among fringe groups has been reported on in many major media sources, and keeping the article does not validate their ideas. "Delete because it's all unscientific nonsense" is not a valid argument, since if that were the case we'd have to delete Flat Earth, Time Cube, and Greys. Keeping Andrew Levine 23:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

My reason for deletion is not that it is unscientific nonsense; the reason it has been proposed fo deletion is that the article is not independently notable. That is to say, it is essentially a part of creation-evolution controversy; the entire article is duplication of what is said elsewhere in Misplaced Pages in the relevant articles. Being unscientific is not a reason to delete something; not being notable and being a dupe of other material is. Titanium Dragon 01:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: I feel sympathy for the editors trying to keep nonsense and cruft out of the dinosaur article, but to create a POV fork for that purpose is the wrong solution. Send editors who wish to edit about such stuff to Creation-Evolution controvery, Young Earth Creationism, etc. I'm sorry your job is hard sometimes, but this article is nonsense. KillerChihuahua 11:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - as above Tonytypoon 01:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or Delete, DO NOT merge, per Dinoguy2 above. Article Dinosaur is a Featured Article, consisting of useful, verifiable information of an encyclopedic nature. Creationist cruft gets sent to Religious perspectives on dinosaurs, and we frequently delete attempts to add religious stuff to Dinosaur or any of the genera articles, directing them here. I am very concerned that this well-meaninged attempt to rid Misplaced Pages of a bad article will eventually cause the excellent Dinosaur article, which receives 1.5 million visitors a year, to suffer. The people who attempt to add material of a religious nature to Dinosaur are not vandals, and cannot be blocked (an admin who blocked a user for adding sourced material could lose his or her admin buttons). This article at the very least gives those users something to edit. Whatever happens, this material must not be merged into Dinosaur. Firsfron of Ronchester 10:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

They don't have to be blocked unless they're being disruptive; as I pointed out above - a link to Creationism would divert them, and obviously it could be explained why it is inappropriate for the article. POV Forking is unacceptable. Yeah, I know, it sucks dealing with unreasonable Creationists sometimes, but it happens, and if the article is really that popular, it is probably well policed. I'm sure we could deal. Titanium Dragon 11:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Inserting unsourced obviously non-factual information in an article is vandalism by the very definition of the word. choosing not to deal with them through the usual channels for doing so and allowing a POV fork instead is unacceptable. Once again I appreciate your situation and your desire to keep the article at its high level of quality but this is not the way to do so. If an admin is taken to ArbCom and desysopped for blocking a user for claiming that dinosaurs were alive during biblical times I will be there, defending him with my teeth! MartinDK 12:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The last time this was a major issue in the dinosaur article, we had an admin involved in the debate -- he blocked people who violated 3RR by removing religious language from the article... which is just to say that many of the people who have commented here are dedicated to keeping "science" articles "scientific" but that this is NOT a universal sentiment among editors on Misplaced Pages, and not among admins either. This fork was a reaction to the difficulty we had in keeping religious language from creeping into the article. Killdevil 13:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking through the last 1000 edits it seems apparent that the vandalism from anons haven't stopped although they are of a different nature now. Second, the insertion of POV non-sourced information prior to the forking came primarily, at the end anyway, from one anon with a static IP. But this is also about something bigger than the Dino article. It is about the fact that these people effectively bullied their way to an article that shouldn't be here. And that is unacceptable. As for 3RR it does not apply to fighting vandalism and as mentioned above there should be plenty of people policing this article. MartinDK 14:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Please also note that during the recent December ArbCom elections, at least one editor ran for ArbCom on the platform of a "zero tolerance policy for administrative misconduct: any administrator who abuses administrative privilege (where "abuses" means uses in a manner inconsistent with policy where such use tends to create or intensify a disruption in Misplaced Pages") will be, at the very least, temporarily suspended as an administrator. Admins on Misplaced Pages have had a free hand for too long." This candidate also stated "If the advocates for the scientific point of view comport themselves rudely and disruptively, while the advocates for creation science comport themselves politely, the creation science people will be the ones left standing and allowed to write the article." and received 41 votes of support. While the people who have voted above seem to support a scientific basis for Misplaced Pages's dinosaur articles, it is not a foregone conclusion that an administrator who acted to protect a scientific interpretation of Dinosaur would be able to retain his/her adminship privledges, as more than 40 people supported a candidate who would desysop an admin who used Admin tools to protect an article from a non-scientific standpoint.

Keeping this article around at least means the Dinosaur article is free from Creationist cruft and pseudoscience; in this sense, Religious perspectives on dinosaurs is very much Misplaced Pages's chicken article. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect for your arguments that one candidate was Kelly Martin and the community showed her exactly what they think of her if you look through the vote sheet. This is exactly why we need rouge admins! This is pseudoscience and and Misplaced Pages is not for things made up in sunday school. I for one would rather fight for the people who care about the integrity of Misplaced Pages than give in to people who bully their way into Misplaced Pages. As for the 3RR blocks such blocks are not warranted because 3RR does not apply when fighting vandalism. The day you negotiate with vandals is the day Misplaced Pages truly looses its integrity and the critics of our project wins. For the good of Misplaced Pages please do not let this happen. In case you didn't notice I am on your side. MartinDK 07:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I fully understood your argument, and that you fully support a scientific basis for Misplaced Pages's Dinosaur article. My point was simply that not everyone sees it that way, and both regular users and admins need to be careful when editing/blocking, as those priviledges (editing and blocking, respectively) can be taken away if the majority of the group decides maintaining a scientific point of view, and reverting non-science edits, is "abuse". You stated above you would fight for an admin who was taken to ArbCom over protecting an article from Creationist POV edits, but that does no good if 41 others support desysopping an "abusive" admin, right? :) Firsfron of Ronchester 07:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

There were 263 people who strongly opposed. I don't think it is hopeless to fight for an admin who supports a scientific basis :) Those 41 supporters need to be put in perspective. I understand your situation but if you have succesfully kept this stuff out of the dino article by keeping this article then surely you could redirect the same people to the creationism article instead rather than keep this blatant example of unsourced pseudoscience. MartinDK 07:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep so the main dinosaur article doesn't become contaminated by religion. Starghost (talk | contribs) 03:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - mainly to avoid edit warring in the main dinosaur article. Not a great reason; but a useful compromise. 04:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

POV Forking is not allowed by Misplaced Pages policy. This is not a reason to support keeping the article. Titanium Dragon 08:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• • KEEP Deserves its own article --Mb1000 04:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, or Keep, but DO NOT merge, per Dinoguy2 above. Scientific articles should not have this kind of speculation in them. Geologyguy 04:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Yes, this is an encyclopedia, but it is not a solely scientific encyclopedia. We have articles on the Simpsons and King of the Hill...cartoons! Not to mention the hundreds or thousands of other "non-scientific" articles! Look at the language of those voting "delete": "those people", "not based on facts", "pseudoscience", etc., and tell me this is not a POV nom. While the ideas and beliefs discussed and described in the article may not be based on "facts", their very existence is fact. This article describes verifiable beliefs held by millions of people worldwide. Of course it's "not a scientific" treatise on the existence of dinosaurs, it isn't meant to be -- it's an article describing beliefs of various groups. Definite keep.--WilliamThweatt 04:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This isn't independently notable; we don't have articles for every minor character in every TV show, or indeed articles for every TV show, simply -notable- ones. This isn't independently notable as the entire article is already in creation-evolution controversy and most of the article doesn't really say anything at all. Titanium Dragon 08:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, or merge to Young Earth creationism (don't merge to Dinosaur). —Quarl 2006-12-30 05:00Z
• Keep Misplaced Pages has tons of non-scientific articles... articles on history, on culture, and even on religion. The information in this article is notable, and even factual, in that it factual presents opinions that exist. The only problem I have with this article is the way it's written... I think it should be improved - not deleted. Tzepish 05:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Whether I agree or not should not become a standard for the inclusion of a WP article. Looking back over the history, I see how this article came to be ... However, it would seem to make the most sense to merge this article with creationism or young earth creationism - the two places where it is a significant issue. Pastordavid 05:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep Although I believe that that there are no dinosaurs in the bible, and a lot of the material is untrue, I would be loathe to lose this kind of material from Misplaced Pages. It is invaluable to know what some religious groups think. How can we judge the opposition if we do not know what they think? It is a very bad idea to remove all things we disagree with. I am pleading to keep this, even though I probably have less belief in its credibility than anyone else on this page.--Filll 06:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Fill, the argument for this deletion has nothing to do with whether or not it is real; that is irrelevant. It is just a part of creation-evolution controversy/young Earth creationism, and is not notable independently - it shouldn't have an article for the reason that the information is already elsewhere in far more relevant articles which are actually notable in and of themselves. Titanium Dragon 08:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it is part of the overarching topics of Creationism or creation-evolution controversy/young Earth creationism. And the article clearly started as a FORK. However, those other articles are approaching excessive lengths. Should it be linked in better with other topics in creationism? Yes clearly it should. But I think that is no reason to delete it. Creationism is an immense field full of all kinds of amazing material (crazy to me, but amazing). I want to have it easily accessible. And pushing it all into a couple of mega articles is not helpful for accessibility. Look, as I said before, I cannot stand the nonscientific creationist stance, as many who have seen my comments know. However, how can I defend myself against these nuts if I do not know what they think?--Filll 15:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom and KillerChihuahua. This content belongs in creationism-related articles. ~CS 06:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and merge any unique material into appropriate Creationism articles Cas Liber 07:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It is innocuous to collect items from other parts of Misplaced Pages here. I agree with User:Filll. It is not just a matter of creationism. It relates to what is said in tours of natural history museums by fundamentalist school groups. Carrionluggage 07:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

  Which makes it a part of creationism does it not? It has been stated to be a POV fork of the article Dinosaur by the people who made it; moreover, as you yourself have pointed out, it is simply creationists who are described here, and it already is in other creationist articles. Why duplicate material when we can simply redirect appropriately? Titanium Dragon 08:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

  And Criticism of... articles aren't POV forks? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 13:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - POV fork. Created Jan. 06 as a compromise to end an edit war. Has never been developed to reflect its title, rather it remains fork for creationism and isn't sufficiently notable for a separate article. Vsmith 12:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete On 11/25 both Guettarda and I added fact tags to the article, to date, none of them have been resolved. Surely a month is sufficient time to improve the article. Also, while the intended purpose of what appears to me now to have been a POV fork was to keep the lunacy out of the main dinosaur article, surely there are better ways to do that. This nonsense is essentially a fringe belief, and at best merits no more than a few lines. •Jim62sch• 13:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

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