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Islam in the U.S.

Any further reverts to the article could cause either of us to break the 3rr rule. Please read my edit summary in my second-to-last edit on the article. BhaiSaab 16:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? How do the videos support this part of the statement "...have served to project negative images of disaffection not representative of the wider Muslim community in the eyes of witnesses" and why is it that there are only negative videos in the article? BhaiSaab 17:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Why did you reinsert it? BhaiSaab 21:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I removed the sentence - it has no source. Like I said before "the impact of these displays of fringe groups has not been documented and there is no source provided in this article for their impact." BhaiSaab 22:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

So why do you choose to only use videos of fringe groups that an undocumented noteworthiness or impact? In your efforts to improve the article, have you found no better videos for a useful representation of the Muslim community within the United States than that of some extremists? BhaiSaab 22:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

My personal opinion of them (Islamic Thinkers Society) is that they are, in contradiction to their name, morons. If you want to source a statement about the presence of a fringe ideology like the ITS in the U.S., the use of a newspaper article about them would have the same effect - would it not? I would not, however, dedicate more than one sentence to them because their presence in the United States has not been significant nor particularly noteworthy. BhaiSaab 23:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

That documentary is so biased. BhaiSaab 23:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of the Quran

We're having a dispute there about sources. I know you're busy with other things, but if you have time could you check that out? Arrow740 22:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Your edit to Relentless - The Struggle for Peace in the Middle East

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My Arbcom

Perhaps you'd like to look at the "evidence" presented by BhaiSaab. I see some interesting similarities between his dealings with you and those with me.I would welcome any contribution you'd like to make in

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar/Evidence.

Thanks. Hkelkar 06:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:VidaSamadzai.jpg

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John Esposito and Saudi Funding

If you insist on trying to provide a connection between John Esposito and Saudi money then please do so with factual statements. You know as well as anyone that "he", John Esposito, is not "the recipient" of any such money but that Georgetown University and the Center he runs are (hence your statement is FALSE). Also, stating that this money was given to "promote Islam" is an assessement on your part and not part of a version expressed by either Georgetown University, John Esposito or the Saudis. Please provide a reference if you really want to claim so. The reference you are well aware of ] used in the John Esposito entry states no such thing. Thanks.PelleSmith 04:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Bad Faith?

Here is the diff where you yourself introduced said reference from above into the John Esposito article ... ]. So what gives?PelleSmith 04:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your response: That's an interesting theory, but what is it even based on? You think Esposito is friendly to Wahabism? I don't agree, but you know as well as I do that this is not even the point. The point is that good faith edits on Misplaced Pages do not include a conscious misrepresentation of basic facts. Do you have a reference to support your claim that Esposito himself is the recipient of that money, or that the intent of any of the involved parties is to "promote Islam"? Because you reverted my change claiming that "actually it is absolutely true". Then on my talk page you have defended your edit by claiming that what you said "is based on what Prince Alwaleed Bin Tala said". What exactly did he say? Where can I or any other editor see what he said? You are clearly well aware of the reference above as you added it to the Esposito page yourself, and this reference says no such things. Now if you want to know why I care so much about this. Personally I'm sick of the edit wars in which extremists from both sides of contentious ideological divides act with dishonest intent to promote their respective POV. This has to stop because all such edits sabotage the integrity of Misplaced Pages.PelleSmith 13:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You know you never did tell me what the Prince said. Its pretty bad form to go around justifying edits with information you know to be unsubstantiated or blatantly false.PelleSmith 05:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearly bad faith. Here you go again. If you are going to proceed in this manner something has to be done about it.PelleSmith 14:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess we're all dreaming of the day when we can prove that Esposito isn't a reliable source. Arrow740 07:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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Misleading edit summaries

Please stop using misleading edit summaries such as "copy edits" when you are make whole or partial reverts. You have been doing this for quite a long time and if you continue I will ask for comment from other editors. Thanks. BhaiSaab 17:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack?

CltFn, I looked at the text you indicated and I just can't see that as a personal attack. I don't consider myself warned; I consider myself puzzled. Zora 06:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

edit summaries

hello CltFn. if you make reverts or delete material, could you please indicate that in your edit summaries (and even better: justify it) especially when you are clearly aware that other editors may disagree with some of your contributions/removals? thank you. ITAQALLAH 12:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

So is this a recurring problem? Can I second this request and ask you not to just revert several good edits without so much as an explantion as you did here .PelleSmith 23:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Gabriel

I don't want to get in an edit war over this. I hope we can find common ground. I think it is clear that some of the material in her biography needs sourcing beyond her own words. The problem is the article expresses her anecdotes as fact while they may be true they need to be backed up with more then just her story. I support Israel completely but if you let a pro Israeli person have these kinds of unsupported anecdotes on their page then an anti Israeli figure can have unsupported anti-Israeli anecdotes on their page which to me is not a good thing. I am going to return the article to the shortened state. Please discuss how we can come to agreement on this, I am not "blanking" with an agenda. Daniel J. Leivick 01:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Islam in the United States

CltFn, I've looked over some of the discussion and edit history of the page and I now see that there seems to be an ongoing dispute between you and several other editors of the page regarding changes to the page structure and so on. Even if you have these issues with the page simply reverting changes wholesale to previous versions is not constructive. If the entry is to become better in terms of its factual accuracy and its structure, edits need to be dealt with individually. Personally I like to seperate different edits to make that easier--as I did. Now all I'm asking is for you to look at these edits seperately and to explain the problems with any of them, or else refrain from reverting them under some blanket revert to an older version. All i did was try to improve on the factual accuracy, the sentence and paragraph structure, and in one instance the NPOV of the article as it was when I saw it. Thanks.PelleSmith 16:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok well revert wars are rarely productive, and they frequently undermine the efforts of editors who are not part of them, because warring editors just keep on reverting to their own favorite versions instead of taking into account possibly good changes. Thank you for at least aknowledging that I had some good edits. Also simply reverting to a previous version is the lazy way of trying to accomplish something like keeping NPOV. If an editor is not willing to take the time to understand the edits of others before acting upon them then maybe they don't have the time to edit on that page. Lets not undermine the project of wikipedia because of a squabble.PelleSmith 12:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You are involved in a request for comment. BhaiSaab 20:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Image sourcing

You have stopped sourcing the images again. Most of them are not your own scans and for the screenshots--you don't mention what they are from... and they don't appear to be clean DVD captures... you have to source your stuff. We've been over this many times. Please go back and do that for all of your new uploads... it should be a matter of habit by now. gren グレン 09:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine that you take them from divx rips you have (I think). And, that's what I figured... but, you have to put it on the page since everyone needs to know--just not me. No harm done, just wanted to make sure you didn't forget :) --gren グレン 06:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

WikiIslam

Hi CltFn. It great to see that you are still doing a lot of much needed work around here! Please keep up the good work.

One thing that I thought that I would mention to you, is this new project that is using the Wikimedia software: http://www.wikiislam.org/index.php/Main_Page . Hopefully the project will grow and expand and become a great source of information regarding Islam in the near future. I don't know if you have noticed it already, and I don't know of you are interested in something like that, but still I thought I would just let you know about it. -- Karl Meier 18:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Criticism of the Quran

Could you comment here? Arrow740 13:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Your note on my user talk page re the RFC

Thanks for posting the note to my user talk page. I have added to my comments in the RfC, based on the change you made in your response section; I hope that is satisfactory. John Broughton | Talk 17:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

AfD appropriateness

The AfD was archived by User:Mackensen. Once an AfD is archived it is generally not to be edited. I suggest you contact User:Mackensen about adding a count to the archive. (→Netscott) 04:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Please respond at Talk:Islam in the United States

I'm not sure about your recent addition to the entry, however I have not reverted it. Please respond to the comment on the talk page. Thanks.PelleSmith 03:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: I have reverted sections of the addition that were false (see below) and/or that in accordance with the wikilinks and the reference showed no connection to Islam.PelleSmith 03:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Can I also implore you to either read your sources a bit better OR to refrain from willfully putting up false information in the entry which ever one of the two it was you did here, when you wrote "To date over 168 Muslims in the US have been charged since Sept. 11, 2001, in connection with terrorism or terrorism-related investigations". We will all benefit from a little more care taken in editing. Thanks.PelleSmith 03:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Answering-Islam.org

Do you know what happened to the article about that? Arrow740 05:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:Anti-Islam writers

You should put it up for CfD if you're going to remove it from articles. If it's not deleted someone can just re-add it when they want. I am not going to put it up for CfD because I would inevitably bring it into a debate on Critics of Islam too which I think is far too vague to have any meaning as a category. gren グレン 13:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you stop trying to remove Scientology from the list?

CltFn, why do you keep on trying to remove the stat about Scientology from the CBS survey data you put innto the Islam in the United States page a while ago? And I'm not asking about the video, i'd rather stay clear of that debate. But its annoying when you keep on removing the Scientology figure. Its part of the survey data. Don't remove it again please. Have a good one.PelleSmith 17:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

deletion sorting

Personally I find Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Islam incredibly useful. Votestalking can take place in any manner. If there is not a centralized place, those who want certain articles deleted will still communicate with each other. But I won't be "in the know." With this system, which User:Itaqallah is so fond of using, I am able to watchlist this single page and learn what's going on the same way that others do. I suggest that we make the deletion sorting page better known instead of deleting it, you know, tell your friends. — coelacan talk — 20:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I have also found the list useful at times though yes I felt it may be used for vote stacking but I've found it seldom works because genuine votes end up there no matter what. What we have to do is get ourselves involved more in the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islam so its a place that doesnt seem to be dominated one side (right now it is). I'm trying to correct that. Can you guys believe the List of former Muslims was taken out of the project's page by two old timers from the project? This is what we are up against. Visit this project's page right now: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islam. Do you feel its dominated by one side? I do and I'm going to change this. This is very important. Like they have used this project to organize their activities, we should too. The project is to be a page and resource for organization of action by everyone equally. It can be a great resource for us once we iron it down and make it more NPOV and friendlier to ourselves. Once thats done, this will be a major help for us. I've formed a new taskforce for improving articles critical of Islam. See we have to sense what we have to do and how to organize our activities so we can improve articles critical of Islam. We're not pushing any NPOV, we're just wanting to make articles better just as everyone else is. You're all welcome to come and attempt to improve the project's page and make it more NPOV. --Matt57 03:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The "46 Lessons" on your userpage

I just wanted to comment, I read through those, and such intriguing and thought-provoking questions and ideas are a rare find. Thanks for posting those up! :) --Kuzaar 19:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks , but of course the credit goes to Irshad Manji--CltFn 17:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

John Esposito

A response to your recent comment on my talk page. You wrote:

John Esposito, heads the International Affairs and Islamic Studies at Georgetown University which is a recipient of a $20,000,000 endowment from Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal of Saudi Arabia . He has clear ties to Saudi lobbying interests and this should be mentioned to put his criticism of Bat Ye'or in the proper context.

As regards to your veiled threats "If you are going to proceed in this manner something has to be done about it", this could be construed to be a borderline violation of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks.--CltFn 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Response:

"Could be" construed to be a "borderline" violation ... seriously? Is that how you are going to respond to an insistance that you refrain from consciously adding false information about John Esposito to wiki entries? You know as well as I do that "something has to be done about it" does not qualify as a personal attack. You also know as well as anyone that John Esposito is himself not a recipient of these funds. We have gone over this several times, and I have even mentioned it in the recent RFC about your editing. How much more clearly can this be outlined? How much more obvious can it be that you are disregarding this fact and consciously adding missinformation about Esposito to wiki entries? Esposito runs an institute at Georgetown University. A Saudi Prince gave this institute and Georgetown University a very sizable donation. Stop claiming that Esposito is the recipient of the this money. It is FALSE.PelleSmith 15:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

See above in regards to the history of this problem.PelleSmith 15:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for finally making the statement accurate.PelleSmith 15:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Bat Ye'or, not a historian

In modern day usage the term historian is primarily used in academia. It is not neutral to refer to her as a "historian". (→Netscott) 17:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You've got no consesus for your highly non-neutral utilization of that term for her. You can be sure that not only will I be reverting such wording but others will as well. (→Netscott) 17:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I provided mainstream dictionaries definitions of historian and I provided notable references of Bat Ye'or being described as a historian. Can you provide a notable reference beyond an opinion that would support your assertion ?--CltFn 17:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair warning: You are likely about to be blocked for a very long time. See this report. (→Netscott) 19:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting response to a simple request for a notable reference to support your assertion. --CltFn 17:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Esposito

Please take this to the Bat Ye'Or talk page, this isn't something that's negotiated in private. --Lee Hunter 17:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

To what are you referring? My pressure on CltFn to stop missrepresenting Esposito's connection to Saudi funding (which is a long standing problem)? Why do we have to discuss that on the Bat Ye'or talk page? It looks like the issue there is with the relevance of the information in the first place. My concern isn't with this relevane issue to Bat Ye'or but with the missrepresentation of Esposito's connection to Saudi funding. I think this is the most appropriate page to discuss the matter.PelleSmith 22:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

may i ask why you deleted my contribution to Brigette gabriel -unsigned commment by user Zlaja89 --

Because they were unsourced , OR --CltFn 17:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

User notice: temporary 3RR block

Regarding reversions made on December 21 2006 to Bat Ye'or

Please mark your reverts as such in future - use "rv" in the edit summaries. If you are in doubt as to what is a revert, pease read WP:REVERT.

I've extended this block to indefinite per Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Community_ban_for_CltFn. Dmcdevit·t 10:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you doing this DmCdevitt??, I discussed by edits on the talk page of the article in question here.

I requested page protection of the article here

I offered compromises to my edits and added references as requested. Did you actually look at my edits carefully to establish what actually was going on on the page before making such a drastic decision as to block me indef? Look at the Bat Ye'or edit history page

Have you checked the value of my contributions to wikipedia against the alleged disputes I have been involved with?

--CltFn 17:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Conditional unblock?

I'm considering unblocking you, but it would be conditional on something like 1/7R, strict civility and extensive use of talk pages for controversial edits.

But I can't quite see why you would prefer that to simply getting a new account; if you stuck to the above, you'd be in no trouble.

Reply here.

William M. Connolley 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks William Connolley. I accept the terms you propose; ie 1/7R, strict civility and extensive use of talk pages for controversial edits. As far as a new account, I did not know there was such an option but in any case I would prefer to continue editing as CltFn even if it is somewhat a more challenging road for now.--CltFn 00:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

OK William M. Connolley 13:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh - also: this section needs to stay on your talk page; and (I presume this must be obvious) this is your last chance William M. Connolley 13:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)