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Egypt A‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egypt on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt A This article has been rated as A-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

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Portrait of a young man

The article features a portrait of a young man with the caption saying: "Roman-era portrait of an Egyptian man from the Hawara tombs of the Fayum collection, c. 125 − 150 CE." Actually, the man is, most likely, a Roman, not Egyptian, because he wears a beard. As opposed to Romans, Egyptians wore no beards at that time. Beit Or 15:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The Hawara mummies have actually been tested in the study cited under the Origins section and were found to be of elite Egyptians, not Romans or Greeks. — · t 22:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Both of you are wrong and right. That portait is not simply a 'native' (African) Egyptian, he is a mulatto and native African(Egyptian) and ruling Roman. It appears as if anything pertaining to the ancient Egyptians on this site are clearly dishuised as fact or at least or lead people's minds away from Africa and black. Just look that the pic of the people in the Article. Where is Nasser of Sadat? They are not arabs( find one for me), they are native Egyptians wit a little something else in the mix. This portrait along with others actually prove the blackness of the ancients because the blackness still comes through. Curled hair does not come out of thin air. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.182.185.117 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

First Nasser was from Arab origin from Banu Morr in upper Egypt , second Sadat looked black because his mother was a sudanese , and modern egyptians are definitly not a Black African people LeCaire

Nasser doesn't look Black to me in the least. Sadat may be dark skinned, but he isn't Black by any definition of the word. Curly hair is a feature of most North Africans whatever their skin color. As to the collage, most of the people included are more on the dark skinned side of the spectrum (Nawal el Saadawy, and Abdlehalim are typically seen as dark). karkaron

This article should be featured

Post response on User Werdnak

I agree. However, it needs just a little more work.

--Meno25 22:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Egypt in Africa

I want to ask a question: someone told me that Egypt should not really be considered as a African country because Egyptians do not really consider themselves to be Africans. How would Egyptians respond to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100%RSA (talk • contribs)

I am Egyptian. We (the Egyptians) are divided considering the question you asked. Some of us consider that Egypt is an African country more than anything else as we are the founders of the ancient civilization of the Pharaohs. While others consider Egypt to be an Arabic Islamic country because we talk Arabic and 88% of the population is Muslim. I support the first point of view.

--Meno25 22:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Egyptian versus Arabic Egypt is indeed an endless debate, but this has nothing to do with Egypt being an African country. It is an African country simply because geographically it lies in Africa. Since this is an encylopedia, it classifies people/countries according to well-established facts & not according to points of view.--Wedian 15:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I am Egyptian, and I don't think there is an argument about Egypt and Africa. It is a geographical fact that doesn't allow for points of view. Most Egyptians, however, feel more kinship to the East Med and west Asia than they do to Sub-Sahara. The exception here is that there is a definitive identification with Nubians, as well as some identification with Ethiopians. Egyptians, in general, don't classify themselves as Black or White. As to the Arab identity thing, I hate the knee jerk we-are-not-Arabs attitude. I prefer a balanced approach where we are Egyptians and Arabs in that order. karkaron

Yes, Egyptians are geographically African. But no, Egyptians are not Black or White or Arab. It is not a so called "knee jerk attitude", it's the truth simply because we predate the Arabs. To ignore these facts is to ignore our origins and the glaring fact that we are not simply funny-sounding "Arabs". The imprint of our mother culture and common sense say otherwise. The label is not an appropriate one. You don't ever hear the Arabs of Arabia say they're Arab and something else in that order. Why should the Egyptians have to accept something else? We have our own unique identity, it's Egyptian and it's good enough. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hamada2 (talk • contribs) 09:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

well , most of the people i know - including myself - doenst look at all like Ancient Egyptian people , so the guy who is telling us that we are the sons of the pharoahs he really doesnt know the very long history of Egypt and the different people who settled in it , about that " Egyptian " identity , i suppose offcourse that he meant the Ancient Egyptian identity and culture , which died actually 2,000 years ago with the end of the Ancient Egyptian Civilisation , the language and culture decides , Egypt is indeed an Arab nation not an African one not only in terms of language and culture , but in some places in terms of genetics due to Arab migrations to Egypt and their mix with the settled people . The richness of modern Egyptian culture , Egyptian history and monuments comes from many sources not only the Ancient Egyptians (who were never the only ethnic group in egypt by the way) but also from the Greeks , Romans , Christian Copts , Arabs & Turks . and Yes , most Egyptians doesnt consider themselves Africans but Arabs. "funny-sounding Arabs" : that is really civilised User:LeCaire

Your Original research is completely irrelevant to the article. You need to learn how to spell and write English. I was being sarcastic with "Funny sounding Arabs", but of course that completely went over your head. Egypt is a 100% Egyptian country. Everything and everyone that came to this country was absorbed but the Egyptians are here to stay. Nothing will change this simple fact regardless of how much people like Nasser try. Hamada2 04:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

well , ask any fellah from Egypt today , and he will tell you that he is an arab & muslim not an african pharoah , this is the only simple fact. absorbed by the Egyptians ? huh !! and what do u call the Arabizations and the conversion of the population to Islam ? (if u even consider us muslims) if the Ancient Egyptian culture & language was so strong , so why did they change their religion &n language and Culture to Islam & Arabic ? (even if they were forced as u may claim) . and regardless of how much ignorant people try to say Egypt is still the land of the Pharoahs it will remain Arab as it is from 640 A.D User:LeCaire

I see that you are completely brainwashed by pan-Arabism. Of course most Egyptians are Muslim. But an Egyptian fellah will tell you what again, that he is an arab????? Please spare your us the jokes and self-serving rhetoric man, you obviously don't know much about the common Egyptian people. By the way, this page is not a forum to rant. It's a place to discuss the article only. Egyegy 23:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

PS: Cairo University disagrees with you

Scientists at the University of Cairo tested DNA from the remains of pyramid workers from 2600 BC, and found that the DNA of ancient Egyptians matches that of modern Egyptians. That is, the people living in Egypt now are essentially the same as the people living there thousands of years ago.

DR. MOAMENA KAMEL (IMMUNOLOGIST, CAIRO UNIVERSITY): 'People who are living here, they are the same as the people who had been living 6000 years ago. OK? And now the moderns are the descendants of these ancient Egyptians'.

Egyegy 23:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

i want to have a civilised chat with you , can i ?? and as you said not here because its not a forum , you didnt put an e-mail here so i can send you something , if you dont want to , its up to you & consider me brain-washed. User:LeCaire

Dudes and dudettes, calm down puuuhleeeeaze. Now to Mr. Hamada, there are several definitions of the word "Arab" Egyptians fit the ethnolinguistic definition, not the ethno-racial one. You can't simply ignore a rich pool of commonalities with people in the Middle East and North Africa. It is a fact that we find their sensibilities easier to understand, their music easier to appreciate, and their jokes more accessible. This is a common sub-stratum of culture that you can't simply ignore in a moment of post-9/11 anti-Arabism. Mr. LeCaire, if you ask a fellah who he is he will say fellah, and unless he watched too much TV in Nasser's era he will never ever identify as an Arab. In fact before Nasser nobody in Egypt identified as Arab. Even today, most Egyptians mean "these people" when they say "Arab". In many Egyptian cities you will find areas called "el-Arab" and that's where the true Arabs, the bedwins, who seldom intermarried with Egyptians lived and in some cases still live. As to the genetic evidence talked about above, it is true. Egyptian DNA barely changed since the late Dynastic era. Egyptians are far removed from Arabs and Shawam, closest to Tunisians, Algerians, Ethiopians, and Greeks. But genetics have no meaning. So you see guys, that's what I mean by a balanced approach, realize the realities of the way Egyptians identify themselves, take a long step back, look at the similarities between Egyptians and the rest of the Arab world (as well as peculiarities) and you will realize we are Egyptians first but then we are also Arabs whether you and the we-are-Phoenecians-Lebanese like it or not.karkaron

ok i agree about most what i said except that the Egyptian DNA barely changed since the late dynastic era and that the Arabs seldom married the Egyptians , analysis and tests in the Nile Delta showed that about 52 % of the tested population have Haplotype V which is a characteristic Arab haplotype , and in some places such as al sharkiyya the percentage is even much higher. in all Egypt (Delta , Saeed , Nubia) it was found in 40% of the tested men , also in the Nile Delta Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV which is characteristic of Greeks & Romans was found in about 20% of the tested population , so clearly you can see the the Egyptians are SO MUCH mixed with other populations : Arabs , Greeks , Romans , Nubians , Berbers , Turks. my point of view in the whole conversation that since we are so much mixed let our culture desiced who are we , Arabs & Muslims or Pharoahs ?? and if you say any fellah wont tell you he is an Arab , ok , then ask him if he is a Pharoah or an Arab Muslim and which identity he will choose.User:LeCaire

Thoroughly incorrect. Haplotype V is a characteristic Berber haplotype. Lucotte & Mercier (2003) used the term "Arab" in the linguistic sense of being Arabized, such as the Arabized Berbers. That study, while a little dated, actually shows that Egyptians are far less related to Arabs, with the characteristic Near Eastern haplotypes (common to Palestinians, Jews, Lebanese, Saudi Arabians, Bedouin, etc.) being relatively low (less than 19% in the north, less than 8% in Luxor). According to that study, the most predominant haplotypes in Egyptians are V, XI, and IV (about 65% in Lower Egyptians and 80% in Upper Egyptians), which are common to Berbers, Nubians, and Ethiopians, and far less common in ethnic Arabs, Jews or Near Easterners in general.

Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate to everyone what Egyegy said earlier about not using the article's talk page to "chat". This is not a forum to chat as clearly indicated by the talk header. If you are discussing genetics because of something in the article, then please address the contents of the article directly. However one identifies oneself is one's choice. The key to group identification is self-identification. There are a lot of Egyptians who do not identify as Arabs, and nothing you or I say will change that. It has nothing to do with genetics, nor with the so-called "Phoenician" orientation of some Lebanese! It would be much easier to accept the range of opinions among Egyptians, and not dictate to others how to identify themsleves. — · ☥ 19:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Well okay, excuse us for deviating a bit, as if you haven't done so before. Wag your finger a bit more. Nevermind, I guess you're right (though preachy). So let's discuss the article, why aren't Ethiopians among the related ethnic groups?

Karkaron 02:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

jew as ethnic egyptians?

jews are an ethnic group much as they a religious group. so writing judaism as a religion of ethnic egyptians, or israel as state that populate an egyptian "diaspora" community, is completely absurd.

BTW, i know my english is not the best... Varcety 16:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The Egyptian diaspora in Israel is not a reference to Egyptian Jews. It is a community of Egyptians (i.e. Muslim and Coptic) who immigrated there following the signing of the peace treaty or are simply working there . Judaism in the infobox is a reference to the fact that some Egyptians converted to Judaism, and thus it is one of the religions that played role in the history of the Egyptian people. You will notice that the articles on Berbers, Kurds and Persians all mention Judaism as well. — · ☥ 10:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Ruby...

Putting Ruby alongside people like Abdel Halim and Naguib Mahfouz...am I the only one who feels offended here?--195.229.242.88 17:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the picture is meant to portray a diverse group of Egyptians. That you are offended by its inclusion reflects merely an opinion since great many other Egyptians disagreed with the opinion when a they voted Ruby as one of the two most interesting Egyptians in 2005. The collage should show one aspect of contemporary Egyptian pop culture. I have been told that Ruby is no longer as notable, so it might make sense to replace the picture with another, but not simply because it offends conservatives. — · ☥ 18:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Uh, conservative who? I'm trying to point out that she's merely a nobody who has overall contributed zero science/culture to Egypt and will mostly likely be forgotten in a few years unlike legends like Abdel Halim. What a joke! Just because they're popular now they're getting more attention in articles, for example compare the article for Nageeb Mahfooz and Amr Diab. Yeah. I rest my case.--195.229.242.88 19:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Ruby is as Egyptian as anyone else. I also think the collage should have as many females as males. I think less controversial examples include: Soad Hosny, Faten Hamama, Angham, Mona Zaki, etc.. Oh and BTW where's Um Kalthoum?karkaron

Of course, there could be so many other people in that collage, but lack of space and copyright issues set significant limits. There still seems to be a value judgement placed on who should be in it though. The Roman-period Fayum portrait is of a pretty random man, but it's interesting to include because of the time era, and like you said about Ruby, he's Egyptian. I considered including the picture of the Fellah, but thought I might run into a similar situation. It would be nice to have as many women as men, but perhaps not all singers/actors. Outside of the entertainment industry or feminist activism, who else would you suggest? — · ☥ 05:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, beyond the arts you'd have to be more random, in which case it gets even harder. I remember a couple of famous athletes, a famous physician, and a very popular ex-minister of environmental protection. But I don't even remember their names, let alone have pictures of them. Sooo ... I guess the collage is good enough now, if I find anything of interest not loaded with copyright questions I will let you know. BTW, I think the Fayoum portrait definitely belongs there.

The problem here is that we don't have pictures for every important Egyptian. When she is forgotten, we will remove her picture. As for now, she is popular. Also, this is not the hall of fame of Egypt. We don't classify people according to their contributions to Egypt or else all of the pictures would be of Pharaohs who made Egypt the most powerful country in the world. These pictures are just random examples to cover a wide range.

--Meno25 05:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete Rubi's photo!!!!!

SAINT Abraam Bishop of Fayoum - with these people and Rubi????????????????? Please Remove these pictures NOW!!!! >:( Who organized this photo?????????

You're not the only one who feels offended here!!!

It's insulting our Holy Coptic Orthodox Church by putting this kind of people like as "Rubi"!!!!

Putting a Holy Saint as Saint Abraam Bishop of Fayoum together with sinners is really offending!!!

U have to delete so soon!! in other words NOW!

Athanasius 16:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

In other words, we should give in to pressure by religious fundamentalism. Ummmm.... Nope, sorry... Those "sinners" are Egyptians whether you like it or not. This is an encyclopedia. Rubi is a singer, not a mass murderer. Besides, if Rubi's pic goes down, who is to say that another pop icon shouldn't be in its place? It's only fair to show a wide range. Egyegy

At least, can u choose another photo for her!!! it's really offending Egypt~! (her style really provoking!!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athanasius 77 (talk • contribs)

First: What is your problem with the photo? I am Muslim and the photo of Muhammad Abduh the well known sheikh is directly after Ruby's picture, yet I don't object. We don't evaluate or judge the religious state of anyone here. We here put pictures of notable people i.e. famous and Ruby is certainly famous.

Second: Zerida made the image.

Third: The photo is not offending Egypt (I am Egyptian by the way). Egypt is much greater than to be represented by anyone whoever he is.

--Meno25 21:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I am Egyptian and I don't find the photo offensive in the least. First, I have seen this picture on the cover of a national magazine before, so your comment that it's offensive to Egypt is bizarre. Second, you sound just like the Muslim fanatics who tried to cover pictures of ancient Egyptian women in school books because they didn't think they were dressed "properly"!!! This is basically another attempt by religious fundamentalists to pressure the country into giving up its liberal culture, just like they are trying to do with the Minister of Culture Farouk Hosni. Sorry buddy, but a lot of Egyptians disagree with you. Egyegy 23:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I am Egyptian and Muslim and I ador sheikh Mohammed Abdou, and I don't feel at all insulted by Rubi's picture there. The collage is not a judgement on the value of these people, it's a collection of a representative section of Egyptian society, and if you don't think Ruby is representative of a section take a walk in City stars. I was sort of on the fence about Ruby there, now I insist she stays where she is. Kefaya fundamentalism from everyone.karkaron

Rating of this article

Why is this article rated as A as can be seen here? It should have been nominated first as GA. It is not listed at Misplaced Pages:Good articles, Category:A-Class Ethnic groups articles or Category:GA-Class Ethnic groups articles.

--Meno25 02:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It says here : "having completed the Good article designation process is not a requirement for A-Class." I also checked at Template talk:Grading scheme and found that basically A-class articles are rated by members of the WikiProject itself, whereas GA is done outside. Since I'm a member of WikiProject Egypt, I rated the article and left a comment, but other members might have comments also. Egyegy 09:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your response.

--Meno25 14:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Origins

I notice that some of the issues discussed earlier on the Ancient Egytians article as to length and focus have reappeared in the "Origin" section of the "Egyptians" article. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Ancient_Egypt&action=edit&section=2 Quote:

"I'd further like to point out that spending oodles of megabytes editing the one small section about the people of ancient Egypt just to add information about their biological affinities is quite beyond the scope of this article and what it needs.." Zerida

"no more baroque discussions of the ethnic essence of the Ancient Egyptians here, please, this is out of proportion. This is our Ancient Egypt article... Compare "Ancient Egypt" entries in any respectable encyclopedia, and you will be sure to find they don't get sidetracked over dental studies.. dab

The less dental study cruft we have on this article, the happier I will be. [[User:Dbachmann|..

I believe these issues can be settled quickly as discussed earlier rather than start yet another weary round of multiple edits, supporting casts, RFCs, neutrality tags, etc. Namely:

• Move the long dental study quote to a footnote. It will be picked up by Google's indexer anyway, so those who like the quote have lost nothing
• Balance out or harmonize the section to reflect the views of a number of other scholars, to stand beside Brace and Irish. This has already been done in part
• The Origins section will thus be more balanced, and shorter, which is in keeping with the overall scope of the main article.

I think this is a good solution and would be agreeable to others. Thank you. Enriquecardova 06:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I moved the discussion here. With regard to your recent edit, saying that "there was a significant range of variability between the northern and southern populations", and basing that conclusion on Keita, is not correct. Keita (1992) states that " northern modal pattern, which can be called coastal northern African, is noted in general terms to be intermediate, by the centroid scores of Function I, to equatorial African and northern European phenotypes... On the other hand, early southern 'Egyptian' metric phenotypes (Badari, Nakada I) overlap those of Kush/Nubia." This does not constitute "significant" difference. Furthermore, according to him this was true only during the predynastic period:

The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is "southern" (tropical African variant)... However, lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed also... The centroid values of the various upper Egyptian series viewed collectively are seen to vary over time. The general trend from Badari to Nakada times, and then from the Nakadan to the First Dynasty epochs demonstrate change toward the northern-Egyptian centroid value on Function I with similar values on Function 11. This might represent an average change from an Africoid (Keita, 1990) to a northern-Egyptian-Maghreb modal pattern.

Irish (2006) shows that there was continuity among the different time eras, though he does suggest that, while the Gebel Ramlah "Nubian" sample was different from all the samples, it was "closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari". Therefore, there is no major disagreement as you contend.

I'll revert and reword, with Yurco (1996) in context. — · ☥ 22:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. There are number of points- variability for example means in physical types that were indigenous in character- but in essence you have balanced it, removing certain questionable items and binding it with the Yurco quote. That is a fair approach, much better, more professional and more scholarly than I have seen elsewhere on related articles. Thanks. Enriquecardova 04:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Great, I'm glad this worked out. — · ☥ 06:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the structure of this article, is this a History article of Egypt or an article about the Egyptian people

I don't know if this was discussed before, but the history section is extremely long, I don't really wanna see it gone, but I guess a page about an ethnic group should contain a bit more than history. As EgyEgy said in the ratings page, we need more about culture here. I can write some, but I have no structure, so I'll need someone to administer how this is gonna go. How are we gonna expand the culture section? Cuisine? Arts definitely could use some expansion. Habits and traditions, as in what? As in family life or as in what? I hope my point is getting across. We need a bunch of stubs that we can fill in, someone needs to see the big picture though, and I suck at that. Anyone get what I am saying because it's late here and I think I'm incoherent. Karkaron 02:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You are not incoherent. I totally agree- this is a history article, not an article on the Egyptian people. It has several flaws:

• The demographics section is mostly about Egyptian immigration to other countries, not nuts and bolts demographics, like birth and fertility rates, health, age structure etc, etc..
• The History section is totally overweighted and overwhelms the whole article. Compare to other articles like Dutch people and Swedes and you see a much shorter History section, and more on the people themselves. The History section dominates about 80% of this article. What exactly is the focus?
• Within the history section itself, there is too much detail. I mean, do we really need to know about the god Hapy? Is it burningly urgent to know that Council of Chalcedon convened in AD 451? we really need to know that Solar worship was embodied in the cults of Ra and Atum? What exactly does this have to do with the people as a whole? Again, compare to other similar Misplaced Pages articles and you can see this article is totally skewed. How did it receive an "A" rating on an objective basis?
• The article also has some questionable statements, like "Modern Egyptian history is generally believed to begin with the French expedition in Egypt led by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1798." Is this really so? Why does modern history begin because the French appeared? It would be more accurate to say that the French or European impact greatly lessened Egypt's insulation under the sultanates. And what about the reforms of Muhammad Ali? Are they an afterthought?
• Key information is missing on culture as stated above. What is the detail for example on why the Egyptians do not always view themselves as Arabs? What can be said about the "Egyptian national character"? What are some outstanding features of Egyptian culture etc. etc? If you look at the Dutch and Swedish pages, they have such a section and are not totally overwhelmed with historical detail. A lot of that should move to the History of Egypt article.

The article needs a complete rewrite, and I think it can be done like so:

1. Cut the History section by at least 90%. It should just be a summary type thing or sketch with a link to the main article History of Egypt A lot of websites so something similar in about 60 lines.
2. Expand a Culture section to tell us who are really the Egyptians. For the rewrite, I recommend you look at other similar articles and then work up an outline- cusisine, music, arts etc etc and go from there.
3. Include a "National character/How others see the Egyptians" section, like the Dutch and Swedish articles. This is very important for the Egyptians since historically they saw themselves as unique and even today do not simply consider themselves just another set of Arabs. They are a distinctive people, and that issue needs to be explored fully.
4. Also to be considered for inclusion is at least some brief discussion on relations with other peoples surrounding Egypt like Israel. This is also important for the Egyptians have put their own distinctive stamp on that issue. The 1973 Crossing Operation for example is generally regarded with respect by most non-Egyptian military analysts, see Herzog's Arab-Israeli Wars history for example, more so than the uneven performance by many Arab armies. This is only one example of course, but in this and many other ways, the Egyptians have made their mark. This needs to be brought out on a page like this. Obscure details about the 451 Council of Chalcedon or ancient solar calendars belong elsewhere.Nardelli 05:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

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