| Revision as of 07:14, 17 December 2020 editSolavirum (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,532 edits →Summary of dispute by SolavirumTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit← Previous edit | Revision as of 15:04, 17 December 2020 edit undoFrançois Robere (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users18,759 edits →First statements by editors (Chopin)Next edit → | ||
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| I am in sympathy with the immediately above views of ] and ]. The speculations about Chopin's gender orientation and sexuality are part of a trend of "]"; and while it is important to "]" allegations placed before the public, I am not sure that Misplaced Pages should become a repository of misguided speculations. Thank you. ] (]) 21:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC) | I am in sympathy with the immediately above views of ] and ]. The speculations about Chopin's gender orientation and sexuality are part of a trend of "]"; and while it is important to "]" allegations placed before the public, I am not sure that Misplaced Pages should become a repository of misguided speculations. Thank you. ] (]) 21:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
| * {{re|Robert McClenon}} Other than changes to readability, which I've explained here, I think we ought to mention three more claims: first is Brett and Wood's statement on biographers trying to essentially ] Chopin and other composers; second is a response from the Chopin Institute that there's no direct evidence of romantic involvement between him and two of his most famous (alleged) female lovers; and third is Pizzá's opinion that "clearly Chopin had homosexual desires", and that he was surely aware of his friend Marquise de Custine's faith as an openly homosexual man in liberal France, who was beaten half to death some years before they made their acquaintance. Pizzá implies that Chopin was either gay or bisexual, and that characterising him as feminine and asexual was an attempt at "taming" him as an artist and a public figure, echoing what Brett and Wood wrote. ] (]) 15:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
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Current disputes
Crusader states
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
 | No edits in the last week. Seemplez 10:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Filed by Borsoka on 03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Section "Outremer" fails to give an explanation for the article's title ("Crusader states" instead of "Outremer"). The same section does not clarify the relevance of the term "Franks" in the article's context. Borsoka (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A mediation may help us to understand the other party's concerns. Borsoka (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by NorfolkbigfishThis is not a single dispute, and possibly a dispute at all. There are two questions that if the sourcing is respected could be dealt with on the Talk page or at the very worst through two RFCs. The two points of contention are: 1) Whether the term used as the article's name, e.g. Crusader states'‘, is misleading, and therefore that should be mentioned in the article. 2) The nomenclature of the name most used as a collective noun for the incomers to the Holy Land that the article discusses e.g. Frank. Crusader states/Outremer On WP the name of the article(s) has already been discussed. It was successfully proposed that the Outremer article be merged with Crusader states at Talk:Crusader_states/Archive_1#Merge_from_Outremer. The consensus was against moving Crusader States back to Outremer with this debate Talk:Crusader_states/Archive_1#Requested_move_10_March_2020. There is no question that both descriptors satisfy WP:COMMONNAME. There is no doubt that academics use both terms. For example, Tyerman in God’s War uses Outremer 275 times and Crusader states 15. Barber in a work called The Crusader States uses Outremer 17 times and Crusader States 148 times. That said historians do not agree whether these terms are accurate. Professor Christopher MacEvitt, Faculty Director at Dartmouth (https://faculty-directory.dartmouth.edu/christopher-macevitt ) among a general critique of the usage of the term crusader states published a paper What was Crusader about the Crusader States? ( Al-Masāq, xxx (2018), pp. 317–30). A response is cited in the article in by Andrew D Buck, formerly of Queen Mary University (https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Andrew-D-Buck-2123225758 ) and now a specialist at University College, Dublin. Academics do not agree on this, and it is clear there is no consensus among them. For the lay WP reader this is probably confusing, and the casual use of these terms is misleading, it implies a certainty that does not exist. The article deals with this by using the passage cited in the article by Dr Allan Murray of the University of Leeds ( https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/history/staff/1010/dr-alan-v-murray ): An alternative name for the four Frankish principalities in modern historical writing is the “Crusader States.” Although common, this term is less accurate, since after around 1130 extremely few of their Frankish inhabitants were actually crusaders, in the sense of people who had taken a vow to go on crusade. Thomas Asbridge, reader in medieval history at Queen Mary University ( https://www.qmul.ac.uk/history/people//academic-staff/profiles/asbridgetom.html ) cited in support of this writes The term ‘crusader states’ is somewhat misleading, as it gives the impression that these settlements were exclusively populated by crusaders and that their history might be interpreted as an example of ongoing crusading activity. he goes onto acknowledge The issue of the continued influence of crusading ideology over the history of the Latin East is a more vexed question. ' he then refers to a Riley-Smith article, but the work of MacEvitt and Buck is in the same area.(page 115 and page 698 note 49) WP:COMMONSENSE would indicate that the article should use a title that is readily understood, but where that title could be misleading, contested or not completely accurate it should be mentioned. The article does this in the lead to explain the Outremer redirect and in the body for sourcing and expansion. There may be copy editing required, but no need for tagging or substantive change. Franks The chronology and etymology of the term is clear. Franks were a Germanic tribe that invaded Western Europe between the 8th and 10th centuries. These became known in the Eastern Roman Empire by the Greek Frangoi and later the Arabic al-Ifranj. Overtime, in the East the term became used for all Westerners. When the First Crusade arrived, chroniclers used the Latin variant Franci, both for subjects of the king of France and for all the crusaders. It is likely that this reflects actual linguistic usage and the adoption of the term by the Roman Catholic and predominantly French speaking incomers, as Murray again puts it, sourced in the article to pages 297 to 298. The term Franks is widely used today by academic and popular historians for all the crusaders, the immigrants that followed from western Europe and their descendants in the crusader states. Cobb is his work cited in the article uses the term 740 times. It is right the term is explained for lay readers, particularly considering the this was a result of self-identification of a people the article is about. Murray again summarises well: However, it is also used to refer to all members of the crusader armies, irrespective of nationality or origins, particularly with reference to the later stages of the crusade and the beginning of the Latin settlement in Syria and Palestine. It seems likely that the chronicles, some of which were composed by eyewitnesses, reflect actual linguistic usage; having become familiar with Byzantine and Arabic terms for “Franks” in the course of the crusade, the crusaders themselves and, increasingly, their descendants who remained in the East adopted the name as a convenient self-designation to reflect the realities of life in a region where their own diverse origins were far less important than the crucial social and legal distinctions between dominant Latin Westerners on the one hand and the various native peoples on the other. The Arabic, Syriac, and Armenian sources that touch on events in Outremer generally refer to its Latin Christian inhabitants as Franks in their own languages. General There has been repeated and frequent tag bombing of the first paragraph in Crusader_states#Outremer and circular discussions at Talk:Crusader_states:
Summary The substantive information in the paragraph is supported by WP:RS. Crusader States is a contested term in academic circles, but WP:COMMONNAME for WP. Franks is a collective noun in common usage for all the Roman Catholic, predominantly French/Latin speaking incomers resident in the Latin East irrespective of their origin. The WP:COMMONSENSE resolution to this dispute is to accept this as the consensus among academics and remove all the tagging.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by BorsokaThe above summary does not reflect (and does not address) my concerns. 1. The article (not the sources cited in the article) fails to give an explanation for the article's title ("Crusader states" instead of "Outremer"), although it states that "Crusader states" is a misleading term. 2. The article (not the sources cited in the article) fails to explain the relevance of the term "Franks" in the article's context. What is important in the article's context is that the European settlers and their descendants in Outremer were called Francs and now are mentioned as Franks - all other information is irrelevant. Borsoka (talk) 09:53, 3 December 2020 (UTC) Crusader states discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.Hello, I will be the volunteer to help resolve this dispute. Is there anything additional that needs to be said before we continue? BJackJS talk 21:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Alright then, I understand that User:Borsoka's concerns are the articles justification for the name 'Crusader states' and does not explain the term 'Franks' usage. I would be inclined to agree that an explanation of the term Outremer should be there, especially because of "The use of the description Crusader states can be misleading".
Me again. Would the post 1204 political entities on/around former Byzantine soil all be counted, without dissent, as part of "Outremer" by modern sources? Same question for those lands with regard to "Crusader States"? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Simple answer to your question Dweller is that the Frankokratia is not generally considered as part of Outremer. Similarly, it would be contested to include them under the umbrella of Crusader States. Some academics even challenge the inclusion of the four polities in the Levant and I have seen an argument made that only France under St Louis can be considered as fitting the description. It is clear that there is no consensus on the term. It is misleading because politically and organisationally they were only states with an active significant Catholic crusader population (under an unfulfilled oaths) for a tiny duration. For the majority of their existance their politics were secular and parochial. Those academics in favour look at the states' culture, art, literature, songs etc as Buck puts very well. That is difficult for the lay reader to understand and if this article followed that approach it would look very different, memoralisation would be the focus rather than chronology and politics. There is a space for that article but it is not this one, and it not what the lay reader would expect. It is still down to WP:COMMONNAME, the expectation is that the article is about the medieval Frankish incursion into Middle East. It is not a stretched definition that could include Malta in late 18th century. Although, I believe there is an argument in favour of that second article as well. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:39, 9 December 2020 (UTC) Our usual method for dealing with things that are contentious is to go with the COMMONNME approach but then include cited material that critiques it and defends it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:48, 9 December 2020 (UTC) Pretty much what the article is doing. Asbridge for 'misleading', Buck for culture. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
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Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject_London#Standardisation_for_all_London_Neigbourhood_/_Area_Pages
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Justgravy on 11:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC).
| Closed. One of the editors has reported another editor to WP:ANI for disruptive editing of these articles. There has also been no participation here. If any editors want to start a new discussion here after the dispute at WP:ANI is resolved somehow, a new request can be filed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:37, 15 December 2020 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview For a long while there was a loose formula for the opening paragraph for areas of London articles along the lines of: “X is an area of (compass-direction) London…”. This is an accepted standard and consensus reached by editors actively involved in the WikiProject London and had been for many years. About a year ago, a new editor took it upon themselves to inject some of their POV and mass change these opening paragraphs of these articles. Nobody really challenged them at the time (I was taking a break from Misplaced Pages editing at this time, otherwise I would have). I have returned recently to see the mess they created is still there, long after this user disappeared. I decided to try to change them back, but as soon as I did my edits were reverted? I decided to open a discussion about it to make people realise this is the previous standard (and also initially to try to improve further although this was shot down). However, users like Roger 8 Roger have prattled on about a load of nonsense and nothing has been done. All I am trying to do is to restore these articles to how they were before they were mass-edited based on POV. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A thorough discussion is needed, especially bringing to light points made long ago that have been archived. Summary of dispute by Roger 8 RogerPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.It is difficult to see what, if anything, is in dispute. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by MRSCPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Summary of dispute by Magnolia677Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Summary of dispute by Lord BelburyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Not sure why my name is here, all I did was revert JustGravy when they started prematurely applying their desired outcome of the RFC to London articles citing the RFC as a reason for the edit (eg. ), and asked them to wait for the RFC to be closed. I'm not aware of the past disagreements over compass directions in London articles. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:12, 9 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by WhatamIdoingI'm not involved in this dispute and have no opinion on the question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by TransporterManPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.I have no dog in this hunt. I only performed some dispute resolution maintenance (noting a 3O removal and giving a bit of advice). I'm not a party to this dispute or discussion, will not be participating here, and do not need to be considered in any further procedures here at DRN. Also, I will not be acting as a DRN volunteer in this case. I would remind the filing party, however, that it is their obligation under the DRN rules to post a notice of this filing on each user's talk page. There's a template set out at the top of this page that can be used for that purpose. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by SchazjmdPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject_London#Standardisation_for_all_London_Neigbourhood_/_Area_Pages discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
I do not understand how Roger can even say there is no dispute? He is disputing the removal of "Greater" from "Greater London" and he is disputing that historic county information should not be placed in the lead for all London area articles. Even though this goes against what was previously agreed by many editors, and had been agreed for a while before he showed up to Misplaced Pages. Justgravy (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
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Frédéric Chopin
– Discussion in progress.
Filed by Chip-chip-2020 on 14:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Chip-chip-2020 (talk · contribs)
- Nihil novi (talk · contribs)
- Smerus (talk · contribs)
- kosboot (talk · contribs)
- François Robere (talk · contribs)
- Toccata quarta (talk · contribs)
- Glissando1234567890 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
An extensive discussion started a couple of weeks ago about Chopins love or sexual life or desires. Some users seem to dominate the discussion, by refusing some sources harshly and by welcoming other sources quite uncritically. Some are starting to be quite rude, commenting „Yawn“ or so. It is also interesting that some users demand more and more proof for homosexual actions or desires, but can‘t provide proof of the same quality for heterosexual actions or desires.
A resolution, which was brought up by a number of users in that talk, would be to complete the article with 1-2 quotes by Chopin, taken from his letters, where he clearly wrote about his desires. It would also be nothing but transparent, to add 1-2 portraits of addressees to the article, addressees Chopin wrote to the most letters. Like this, the readers could read themselves what Chopin wrote and build their opinion on their own. Also a section about the quite large discourse on the topic would be nothing but transparent.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Frédéric_Chopin#Chopin’s_sexuality
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Perhaps guide the talk, so that not 2-3 users dominate the discussion. Ask for reliable sources of a comparable quality from both sides, judge the quality of the sources, help finding a solution. Bring back more friendlyness, politeness and, most important, more impartiality to the talk.
Summary of dispute by Nihil novi
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.The discussions in question ("Chopin's sexuality", on the "Talk:Chopin" page) have largely centered on brief ambiguous passages from several letters that Chopin wrote in 1829–30 to his schoolmate Tytus Woyciechowski – which passages Moritz Weber, in a 7 December 2020 Swiss Radio and TV program, "Chopin was gay and no one must know about it", interpreted as indicating that Chopin was homosexual.
The dispute appears to have been resolved in a balanced, neutral way by Smerus (in the "Chopin" article's "Gender and sexuality in music and life" section), to the satisfaction of most parties except, notably, for Chip-chip-2020, who seems to have first brought Weber's views to the "Chopin" article and talk page.
Thank you.
Nihil novi (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Smerus
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Nothing to say that is not on the talk page. There is no dispute here, only a consensus which didn't go the way of the complainant.--Smerus (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by kosboot
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.I've been on Misplaced Pages for 14 years with over 13K edits and this is the first time I've been summoned to this page. As with the U.S. presidential election, it boils down to a few people who refuse to work toward consensus and feel their views are the correct ones despite the relative quality of the sources. - kosboot (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by François Robere
As Robert McClenon notes this was a very lengthy discussion. I feel that some editors were defensive of Chopin/'s reputation (in a manner that again mirrors how this was received in the "real world"), and at times this contributed to a raising of sourcing standards almost to WP:BLP levels. The resulting text is appreciable for trying to summarize all of he main viewpoints without embarrassing any of the sources (some of whom have theorized on Chopin's sexuality in a manner that's out of vogue these days), but I think it's way too long and obtuse, and does not give due weight to some dissenting sources.
I have no opinion on whether this, or anything else, suits DRN. François Robere (talk) 17:38, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Toccata quarta
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.The debate was a bit heated and not very structured initially, but the dust has settled and we have achieved some kind of consensus. I'm surprised by the size of the section on Chopin's sexuality that has just been added to the article and intend to make some further points on the talk page, but overall I'm happy with it and think it provides a balanced and well-written summary of the topic. I'm somewhat surprised that this has reached DRN in the first place; the debate was mostly civil and did not reach anything approaching the levels of acrimony that the talk pages of political articles often witness.
I have been asked by Chip-chip-2020 to provide a rationale for my reversal of his edit, so I will just state that the topic is a sensitive one and consensus was being sought on the talk page; hence, it was natural to revert the article to its "default" state, which is consistent with WP:BRD. The Chopin entry is a featured article and Chip-chip-2020's edits were reverted by other editors as well, which further supports the appropriateness of the steps taken. Toccata quarta (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Glissando1234567890
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Frédéric Chopin discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.- Comment by semi-involved Francis Schonken (talk): I think this is less suitable to be taken on at DRN, for there being too many parties (as far as I'm concerned I could have found myself listed among the parties), for issues getting mostly resolved on the article talk page (being told the same thing by many people is not an indication DR would usually lead to something different), and the OP's concerns to a large extent being implemented in mainspace (that a few things seem out of reach for the time being is something everyone, again, *everyone*, involved in the related discussion has to live with and should not fixate on). (note: this is not an opening comment by a volunteer, unless all listed involved users would consider me to be completely uninvolved, and then this would be my very first DRN discussion I'd volunteer on – just didn't know where else to put this comment) --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- This dispute should have gone to RSN and NPOVN where the UNDUE nonsense would be rejected and any appropriate fraction of the current text would be validated. The calculus of WP content is that a compromise between valid and invalid = invalid. That's just logic, and that's where things stand. SPECIFICO talk 16:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page has been extremely lengthy. The editors are reminded to be concise in commenting here, especially before a volunteer starts moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Smerus: has kindly notified me of this discussion. I am not involved, but have commented on sources and tweaked some text. I discovered, before this notification, that Chip-chip-2020 had been adding POV content on de.wikipedia.org, fr.wikipedia.org, pl.wikipedia.org and en.wikipedia.org concerning Tytus Woyciechowski and Frédéric Chopin, with a narrative linking the pair. This attempt of Chip-chip-2020 to establish a "proven" link appears to be WP:RECENTISM plus WP:ACTIVISM. The posting to WP:DRN seems ill-advised. Mathsci (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
| Report socks at SPI. Seemplez 13:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC) |
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- Please also note that a second (though considerably smaller) discussion on Chopin's sexuality is being conducted at Talk:Waltzes, Op. 70 (Chopin). Toccata quarta (talk) 07:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for the contributions so far. I‘d suggest we see what Glissando1234567890 and François Robere have to say to what this discussion originally was supposed to be about. And perhaps a volunteer like Robert McClenon in the meantime could comment on the tone of the previous contributions?--Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - Based on the request by User:Chip-chip-2020, I will review the comments in more detail and comment on them and their tone within 24 hours. I didn't have to review them in detail in order to comment on their length. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- If you are to do this, please also note the contributions to the discussion by Special:Contributions/2001:8003:5309:BA00:E07E:35C7:5196:38E8 who for some reason was not listed here by User:Chip-chip-2020 - --Smerus (talk) 10:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Chopin)
As long as I have read through the very long statements once, I might as well take this a little further. Please read the rules that are in effect. It should not be necessary for me to restate the rules. Sometimes when I say "Be civil and concise", I emphasize, "Be civil". In this case, I will emphasize, "Be concise". The comments on the talk page are mostly civil, and are repetitious. I was asked to comment on the tone. I have no particular comments on the tone except that one unregistered editor has been uncivil. Other editors have been civil and long-winded, and what we need is to summarize them. It appears to me that Chopin's sexuality is a matter of considerable continued discussion. That is clear to me. We need some formulation to state that his sexuality is a matter of continued discussion. I didn't try to review the reliability of the sources with different viewpoints. It would be ideal to find some mutually agreeable formulation of the differing viewpoints. Otherwise we will develop two or three candidate versions of the section and have an RFC to choose between them.
Each editor should think about what can be said that will present the different viewpoints with due weight.
Now: Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think should be said as a neutral balanced summary of what reliable sources say? Do not just focus on what you think his orientation or sexuality was, but on what you think scholars say his orientation or sexuality was. Do not respond to each other, except in the space for back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me, and to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Chopin)
- I think biographical elements (sending of affectionate letters as related by *biographers* Zamoyski, Walker, etc) should be separated from gender studies (i.e., Kallberg's approach). The biographical elements should be summarized in the biographical narrative (Frédéric Chopin#Life), chronologically (that is, where both Zamoyski and Walker place it in their biographical narratives – not an appended separate subsection); the gender studies aspect is entirely reception/legacy and should be moved down, around where the current Frédéric Chopin#Reception and influence subsection is (where it is a rather tiny aspect, so likely also not a separate (sub)section). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, Robert McClenon, for the resumé and for opening the debate. Proved biographical content should be in the upper part (Frédéric Chopin#Life). Unproved (such as the alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska) should me removed or mentioned neutrally. Wordings like „secretly engaged“ or „secretly in love“ are not reliable information. And the quote from the Chopin Institute confirms that. 1-2 quotes by Chopin himself taken from his numerous and long letters to Woyciechowski should be introduced though, as suggested by many users in the talk. The letter from 3.10.1829 was pointed out for various reasons, also for the mistranslation issue, which would also be worth to mentioned, since the translations are the basis for non-polish-scholarship. For example Glissando1234567890, Boud, , Francis Schonken suggested introducing Quotes or Fotos or pointed out interesting aspects of the mistranslation-issue. Quotes in correct side-by-side translations would be appropriate, as suggested in the talk.
- Apart from the proven facts in the life-section, in the „sexuality“-section, the different points of view of the debate should be shown neutrally. It is important to be careful about the sources, since Walker and Zamoyski are writing things like „mental twist“, or „ could have added the name of Konstancja“ (to a letter to Woyciechowski), or „he secretly dedicated the Adagio to her“ (without mentioning any proof, and also in the newest edition of the score there is no dedication mentioned).
- In the sexuality-section (Frédéric Chopin#Chopin's_sexuality), it should also be mentioned, that the radio-features became not just a topic in Poland, but were also reviewed or further investigated in publications like The Times, CNN, Guardian, also in various languages like Hindi or Japanese. Best, --Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 08:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I broadly agree with Francis Schonken's summary above as regards allocating the topic(s). The question is how much detail is appropriate. As regards Chopin's sexuality, it only needs (imo) a sentence noting that the correspondence with Woychiekowski has given rise to discussion about Chopin's sexual orientation at the time of writing them, and then citations of (say) Walker and Zamoyski. Chip-chip-2020 is absolutely unjustified in talking about "unproved...alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska"; this is pure WP:OR as there is plenty of evidence about these two in other people's correspondence of the period. To elaborate on this sort of speculation is just being WP:POINTy. As regards Kallberg's speculaltions, these are indeed pretty esoteric and don't deserve much more than a brief reference in a 'legacy' section. Further, there is no good reason to go overboard about a poorly sourced program last month on Swiss radio which had little or no balance whatever, and whose false controversiality (because the issues it discussed were well known) gained it a transient wider media coverage.
The broader context is that this is an FA article on a major figure in music history, and needs to meet fully standards about using reliable secondary sources if it is to retain that status; it receives 3-4,000 views a day, and it is essential for the reputation of WP that it remains WP:NPOV and avoids WP:RECENTISM. Context and proportion are therefore essential. Chip-chip-2020 above is urging that all sorts of doubtful and marginally relevant detail should be added as, somehow, by right; that is the argument of a partisan. Francis Schonken is suggesting that material should be properly evaluated and appropriately placed; this must be the right approach.--Smerus (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I dispute that any of this section is in good shape or that any of it is NPOV DUE WEIGHT for this article. It's poorly sourced and conflates many diverse issues, none of which is adequately verified or tied to the subject of the article aside from speculation. Noting the recent references to this as a Featured Article, I think the entire section should be removed until such time as it is fit to print. SPECIFICO talk 16:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I totally agree with Smerus: that the article's FA status requires careful evaluation of any additions. Ultimately, this is a very ambiguous aspect of Chopin's life which probably can never be verified with conclusive evidence. Thus it's not so much about Chopin but rather about 21st century attempts at deriving new information based on new interpretations of his correspondence. Although I feel it should not be in the article, it needs to be there primarily for the purpose of forestalling additional fantasy and speculation such as the sensationalist Swiss radio broadcast. - kosboot (talk) 19:17, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with everything Kosboot has written. As always I will link Chopin and Schubert. About 6 months ago, I helped write the very brief paragraph about Franz Schubert's sexuality in the eponymous article. Questions about sexuality dating from 1989 were put in "Teacher ..." (his adolescence), not legacy or reception. Similar scholarly questions about Chopin's sexuality were raised in the 1990s. In Talk:Frédéric Chopin, several editors have suggested that "images and quotes" might be added to the section on Chopin's sexuality. Most Chopin biographers, aware of his adolescent letters, briefly discuss their significance. Music Prof Kallberg studies 19C and social mores in a liberal framework; his work is accessible in book reviews. Recent media reports that "Chopin is gay" are similar to 1989 headlines about Schubert; but now, when discussing music and sexuality, trained academic researchers often speak of the otherness or otherworldliness of a composer. Mathsci (talk) 21:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I am in sympathy with the immediately above views of SPECIFICO and kosboot. The speculations about Chopin's gender orientation and sexuality are part of a trend of "fake news"; and while it is important to "fact-check" allegations placed before the public, I am not sure that Misplaced Pages should become a repository of misguided speculations. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: Other than changes to readability, which I've explained here, I think we ought to mention three more claims: first is Brett and Wood's statement on biographers trying to essentially heteronormalize Chopin and other composers; second is a response from the Chopin Institute that there's no direct evidence of romantic involvement between him and two of his most famous (alleged) female lovers; and third is Pizzá's opinion that "clearly Chopin had homosexual desires", and that he was surely aware of his friend Marquise de Custine's faith as an openly homosexual man in liberal France, who was beaten half to death some years before they made their acquaintance. Pizzá implies that Chopin was either gay or bisexual, and that characterising him as feminine and asexual was an attempt at "taming" him as an artist and a public figure, echoing what Brett and Wood wrote. François Robere (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Reflist
References
- https://www.srf.ch/kultur/musik/spaetes-outing-chopin-war-schwul-und-niemand-sollte-davon-erfahren?wt_mc_o=srf.share.app.srf-app.unknown
- https://books.google.ch/books?id=6ThIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT110&dq=alan+walker+fankly+erotic&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3vovXx8_tAhUBqaQKHTSlD7MQ6AEwAHoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=alan%20walker%20fankly%20erotic&f=false
- Zamoyski (2010), pp. 26–29.
- https://www.edition-peters.de/product/konzert-fur-klavier-und-orchester-nr-2-f-moll-op-21/ep71919
- https://www.srf.ch/kultur/musik/presseschau-zur-srf-recherche-der-schwule-chopin-geht-um-die-welt?wt_mc_o=srf.share.app.srf-app.sms
Back-and-forth discussion
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MutualArt.com
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Bodokh on 13:42, 16 December 2020 (UTC).
| First- there has been no discussion on the talk page, which alone makes this DRN premature. 2ndly- I don't think the DRN is the correct place to address this concern. Now, I will go on the talk page as a courtesy and remind the user of the policies regarding NPOV and the purpose of talk pages, but if you have concerns about behavior of a user, in the future please try the WP:ANI or try actually discussing the matter first, keeping in mind WP is not a place to market or try to recover service. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview On the talk section, there are 2 posts which are ruining the good name of MutualArt.com. I work at the company, and there is no problem at all with customer support, our lines are always active and we have quick email replies. According to the guidelins for the talk page: "This page in a nutshell: Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor." Calling the company a "scam" is a personal opinion. We offer services like other companies in the industry and we are completely legitimate. One user called StephenJPC has posted 2 posts calling the company a scam without any information to prove these false claims hurting our brand. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:MutualArt.com#Is_MutualArt.com_reputable? https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:MutualArt.com#MutualArt_and_the_Artist_Pension_Trust How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Remove these false claims as they have no proof at all to make any claim against the company to hurt the brand. Summary of dispute by StephenJPCPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.MutualArt.com discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Motörhead
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Romomusicfan on 17:02, 16 December 2020 (UTC).
| This has not been discussed on the article talk page where many editors can contribute and discuss. Please try to discuss this on the article talk page, and if that does not work after a good faith effort, you may re-open a case on the DRN. Note: While it is considered bad manners to remove a section from an article talk page, users have control of their own talk pages. This is part of why we ask you discuss issues on the talk page attached to the relevant article- so that it isn't just deleted when someone is done with the discussion. Thank you. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The intro of the article correctly notes that all of the "classic" line-up of the band was dead by late 2018. I added a sentence to this that Larry Wallis's death in 2019 compounded the situation as it left founder drummer Lucas Fox alive from any lineup prior to 1982. Sabbatino deleted this Wallis was not part of the "classic" lineup. I wrote to Sabbatino's talk page and pointed out that my edit was not to do with the classic lineup but the separate issue of four out of five members 1975-1982 now being dead. Sabbatino replied this had nothing to do with the *previous* sentence about the classic lineup. Sabbatino also added that Wallis was "not important". I pointed out that the sentence about Wallias was a different sentence from the one about the classic lineup. I was not sure what to make of the remark about Wallis being "not important" so I replied in brackets that Wallis was certainly important, regardless of whether he is relevant. Sabbatino deleted the entire discussion from the talk page, declaring "I'm not wasting my time with someone who can't understand what I meant" So now I must seek alternative avenues for resolving this. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? This discusssion was on Sabbatino's talk page before Sabbatino blanked off the conversation: How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Third (or more) opinion on whether my edit (mentioning how Wallis's death left Lucas Fox as last surviving member pre-1982) belongs in the article or not - bearing in mind it was a separate sentence from the one about the classic line-up. Summary of dispute by SabbatinoPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Motörhead discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war
– New discussion.
Filed by Steverci on 01:09, 17 December 2020 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Steverci (talk · contribs)
- CuriousGolden (talk · contribs)
- Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
- Solavirum (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
I have proposed making a number of changes to the belligerents list in the article's infobox, and backed them all up with many sources. Armenia, like Turkey, did not officially declare war despite both nations being heavily involved. For example, no fighting took place in Armenia's borders, even when enemy forces reached them. Both Armenia and Turkey should be listed under a "Supported by:" or being listed as full belligerents. Personally, I support the former because it better reflects how no fighting could take place in their borders due to a lack of declaration of war. However, Erdogan's support has been stated by many sources to have been vital, so he should also be listed in the leaders. Russia should also be removed as a belligerent completely because the Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh. And "Armenian diaspora volunteers" should be removed from the infobox, because these are individual cases and not the result of organization's official backing, unlike the Syrian mercenaries (which were recruited and deployed by Turkey). Thus, it is giving them too much undue weight.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Infobox_belligerents_changes
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I would like for users that have no personal bias in the subject to review the arguments and evidence put forward, and help discuss what changes should be made.
Summary of dispute by CuriousGolden
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Summary of dispute by Grandmaster
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.Summary of dispute by Solavirum
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.2020 Ganja missile attacks
– New discussion.
Filed by Steverci on 01:38, 17 December 2020 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
This subject event took place after the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert. I had added this fact to the article, along with several citations supporting it. CuriousGolden reverted the change, asking for a source that "links these two events". I went on the talk page and provided just, that, giving yet another source from as official Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. However, CuriousGolden now appears to be trying to move the goalposts, asking for a source that explicitly links the article to "retaliation to attacks on Stepanakert", even though my edit had never stated that. Given that the Foreign Affairs Minister referred to Stepanakert when asked about Ganja, this means that it is important to tell the reader that Stepanakert happened first. The article currently gives the impression that the missile attacks were unprovoked. The talk page discussion had devolved to an argument about interpretation of sources. Although I had shown the sources I provided to clear and reliable, I decided to seek a dispute resolution to prevent edit warring.
I would also like to add I wanted to add the Stepanakert attacks to the Bombardment of Tartar article as well, which happened only one day before Stepanakert, yet Stepanakert isn't mentioned on the article at all. The talk page discussion could only take place in one place, but it was about both articles.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:2020_Ganja_missile_attacks#2020_bombardment_of_Stepanakert
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Please take a look at the revision changes and talk page discussion, and help discuss if you think the Stepanakert bombardment should be mentioned as having taken place previously or not.
Summary of dispute by CuriousGolden
Steverci tries to draw connections between 2 unrelated events without providing any proper source and puts it in lead. And when asked to provide a WP:RS that connects these 2 events, they accuse me of WP:JDLI and moving the goalposts even though I asked for the same thing the entire discussion, even when I first reverted their addition. It's not really a dispute, I asked them to provide a WP:RS to support their WP:OR and they failed.
Summary of dispute by Solavirum
He isn't telling the full story here. Steverci tried to relate those things, and tried to make it look like a "revenge attack". The MoFA source he refers to doesn't even state such a thing. There's not enough, actually, not a single WP:RS that states that, and this is just his own assumption. I call this particular case WP:OR and WP:NOTAFORUM, but overall, the user has worrying activity. This includes his rhetoric, with remarks like it hurts the victim narrative the article tries to sell. He also wanted to remove Armenia as a belligerent in the article about the war. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 07:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)