| Revision as of 00:35, 22 February 2021 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,292,502 editsm Archiving 4 discussion(s) to Talk:Messiah in Judaism/Archive 1) (bot← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 13:37, 28 May 2024 edit undoOgress (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers51,096 edits →Sourcing: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
| (137 intermediate revisions by 24 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{ |
{{Talk header|search=yes}} | ||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1= | |||
| {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= | |||
| {{WikiProject Judaism |
{{WikiProject Judaism|importance= High}} | ||
| {{ |
{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Mid|Interfaith=yes}} | ||
| {{ |
{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Mid|jesus-work-group=yes}} | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
| Line 27: | Line 27: | ||
| It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. | It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. | ||
| Not to hear his voice. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19 October 2008 (UTC)</span> | |||
| Not to hear his voice. | |||
| == |
== Missing discussion of Haymanot == | ||
| The article addresses the role of the Messiah in various sects/denominations of Judaism. But it does not address Haymanot (tradition of Beta Israel). | |||
| Dear Editors who read this, | |||
| == We are already over 6,100 years after creation == | |||
| Feel this page has way too much focus not on Judaism, but its relationship with christianity. Feel Jewish aspects should be turned up whereas christian aspects should be toned down. ] (]) 02:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Dunno where this 2240 CE came from, but the numbers within the Bible add up with the current day already way over 6,000 years. So even if I take out the years that never were, we are way past the 6,000 years since Creation described in the Bible. ] (]) 19:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Need for overhaul == | |||
| == Deletion of sourced information == | |||
| Dear All, | |||
| {{re|Nycarchitecture212}} Don't delete sourced information. ] (]) 18:27, 31 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| As I see it, this page needs major overhaul. The information on this page was written by those with little understanding. See sections where it mentioned beliefs that gathering of Jews before building of third Temple. Correct order is building of temple and then gathering of Jews. With regard to those minor factual edits will be changing. With regard to more major decisions, such as removing content should probably wait a couble days before changing it. | |||
| :I refuse to interact with this individual, so my contributions to the article will stop here if other users are fine with him deleting my edit I will not revert it. Have a nice day! ] (]) 23:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Reason for these views is that messianism in Judaism is not well understood, even by the scholarly both secular and religious. The only text which compiled a systemic commentary on Maimonedes last two chapters which deal with Messiah and messianic era, just came out last year and is currently only available in hebrew. Maimonedes is the only authority in Jewish Law who rules on laws of Messiah and Messianic Era. The commentary is entitled "Dvar Malchus Chidushim U'Biurim Be'Hilchos Melochim Le'HoRambam Prokim 11-12" ISBN: 978-1-893855-09-0. I have been studying this for past year and have some familiarity with basic concepts. The previous writers had a general vague knowledge of some details, but lacked a systematic overview of the concept. I intend to address this in coming weeks with editing of just basic concepts such as Two periods in the Messianic era and other concepts. ] (]) 04:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why? ] - ] 00:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{re|Nycarchitecture212}} I'm not talking about {{tqq|fringe}}. I'm talking about your '''''deletions.''''' ] (]) 23:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Yaakov Wa.}}– please support your changes with citations to reliable sources (]) – the content you added about, "enabling the Jewish people to observe all 613 commandments" is not supported by either of the sources cited – content without citations counts as original research, see ] – "Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" per ] – cheers, ] (]) 04:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Sourcing == | |||
| Dear Epinoia, | |||
| @]: while I appreciate the hard work you put in to providing material for this page, the Talmud is not a secondary source per Misplaced Pages standards but an original source. In addition, we need to write an article intended for the general public, and these comments are really deep in the weeds. We must provide secondary sources that explain what theologians think of the Talmudic references, not provide the references themselves (except as limited examples, such as a quote). ] 01:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Check Maimonides Hilchos Melachim 11:1 Where it states "Then in his days all the statutes will return to their previous state... according to all their particulars as described by the Torah". Translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar. ] (]) 05:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :Okay, I agree with you there. If I find any secondary sources that are worthy of note, I'll suggest the edit. Thanks.] (]) 03:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Proposed Overhaul == | |||
| ::Thanks, that would be super! ] 13:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Dear All, | |||
| I propose we revamp article according to this format. | |||
| 1. Brief description of Jewish Messiah. | |||
| 2.Role of Messiah in Judaism. | |||
| 2.1 Restoring Judaism's (613) commandments | |||
| 2.2 Qualifications for Messiah | |||
| 2.2.1 Qualifications for Presumptive Messiah | |||
| 2.2.2 Qualifications for Definite Messiah. | |||
| 2.2.3 Disqualification factors for (Presumptive?) Messiah. | |||
| 2.3 Messiah's effect on World. | |||
| 2.3.1 Effect on Jews | |||
| 2.3.2 Effect on non-Jews | |||
| 2.3.3 Effect on physical world | |||
| 3. How does Messiah come/ Two-Eras of Messiah/ Two periods in Messianic Era (Not yet finalized exact wording) | |||
| 3.1 Non-Meritorious State-by Year 6000 | |||
| 3.2 Meritorious state. | |||
| 4. Mashiach Ben David vs. Mashiach Ben Yosef (Joseph?), | |||
| 5. Etymology. | |||
| 6. Put in history of Messiah according to Jewish biblical sources. (This is Messiah in Judaism, will have separate section for christianity). | |||
| 7. Judaic Messianism and christianity | |||
| 7.1 all the christian stuff | |||
| 7.2 Judaism's rejection of Jesus as Messiah. | |||
| 8. Contemporary Jewish Views era). | |||
| 8.1 Orthodox | |||
| 8.1.1 Hassidic/Chabad | |||
| 8.1.2 Non-Hasidic/Litvak. | |||
| 8.2 Non-Orthodox | |||
| 8.2.1 Reform | |||
| 8.2.2 Conservative | |||
| 9. See also | |||
| 10. Notes | |||
| 11. References | |||
| 12. Sources | |||
| 13. Further Readings | |||
| 14. External Links | |||
| Please comment on any suggestions to this proposed structure. | |||
| Blessings, | |||
| Yaakov W. | |||
| p.s. If no comments by 2/23/21, will start overhaul process. | |||
| :– there should be a "See also" section before Notes – cheers, ] (]) 14:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Dear Epinoia, | |||
| Done ] (]) 15:11, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding your suggested section 2 above, especially "2.1 Restoring Judaism's 613 commandments" - what is your ''Reliable Source'' for this initial statement, before anything else? Thank you, ] ] 19:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Dear Warshy, | |||
| The source is Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim chapter 11:1. Where it states (translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar) "In the future, the Messianic King will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. | |||
| Then, in his days, all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee year according to all their particulars as described by the Torah". | |||
| Blessings, | |||
| Yaakov W. | |||
| p.s. Take a look at this article where it briefly goes over this concept. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1122357/jewish/Resumption-of-Suspended-Mitzvot.htm <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::I had a suspicion you may be coming from Chabad sources, which for me are biased sources to begin with. As for the suggested "613 commandments" to begin with, Maimonides does not refer to them in this manner. The proper way to use Maimonides (which should be in the article, no doubt about that) is to directly quote Maimonides giving his complete description of the Messianic age in translation, precisely as you have done above. Thank you, ] ] 19:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Dear Warshy, | |||
| Appreciate comment, however, when one looks at the hebrew term used in Maimonedes (All their particulars as described by the Torah ככל מצותה האמורה בתורה). It is a clear reference to the 613 commandments. See also Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim Chapter 11:3 "The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them. Anyone who adds or detracts or who reveals false interpretations of the Torah to imply that the mitzvot are not to be understood simply is surely wicked and a non-believer." (Translation from Tougar, with uncensored portion from Yemenite manuscript added). | |||
| Blessings, | |||
| Yaakov W. | |||
| p.s. Regarding naming of section, could be renamed to "Restoring Commandments" or something along those lines. I want suggestions. | |||
| ] (]) 19:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :::For ease of reading of the section/discussion you should indent your replies using the ":" colon before you start your reply. For signing your posts all you have to do is to type four tildes "~" in a row, and the Misplaced Pages platform will automatically sign them for you. As for your suggested overhaul, my suggestion is to work in small increments, step by step, so it is easier for other editors to accept or reject your changes. I.e., instead of a big plan of a complete overhaul of the article, I'd prefer you try to work in small changes and increments. Note that nowhere Maimonides himself uses the number "613" for his definition of the commandments of the Torah. That number is found in a later rabbinical source, that does not necessarily need to be referred to here, where Maimonides own words should be used directly instead. Thank you, ] ] 20:27, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Dear Warshy, | |||
| :::: In regards to your suggestion about colon, appreciate you taking time to teach this to me. | |||
| :::: In regards to suggested overhaul, your suggestion noted that you prefer smaller changes. Also, will see what other editors say before 2/23. | |||
| :::: In regards to number 613 commandments, Maimonedes himself mentions at in his Introduction to the Mishneh Torah (of which Hilchos Melachim is the conclusion), that "The number of Mitzvot which are incumbent on us at all times is 613. Of them, 248 are positive commandments; an allusion to their , the number of limbs in the human body. 365 are negative commandments (prohibitions); an allusion to their , the number of days in a solar year." (Translation from Tougar). | |||
| :::: However, there may be justification to say restoring commandments instead of saying 613. Keep up your feedback Warshy! | |||
| :::: Blessings, | |||
| :::: Yaakov W. ] (]) 20:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Request for assistance == | |||
| Dear all (Especially speaking to frequent editors (in no particular order): Epinoia, Joshua Jonathan, Tgeorgescu, Warshy, Editor2020, 2600:8805:9200:11c0:d00a:2689:49bc:cddf.), | |||
| Since I am looking to do a major overhaul of this article in a couple of days there are a couple of points I want to be clear about. | |||
| 1. I am not very knowledgeable about how to cite stuff. Meaning that when I do start to revamp sections there will probably be a lot of statements without sources yet, although not OR. Can you please ask me for the source in the talk section and I will provide it within approximately 24 hours (except for Shabbos and Jewish Holidays)? Along these lines, is it possible that you can help out be putting in the sources/references into wikipedia? It will be a enormous undertaking which I don't have the time to effectively accomplish yet. | |||
| 2. Regards to how we are going to revamp the article: There are two ways which I have thought of so far. | |||
| 2.1 We can blank out whole article and start adding section by section in. Advantages: We get cleaner and more organized info in. Disadvantages, a lot of info is concealed for time being. | |||
| 2.2 We can start adding in sections and slowly replacing it. Advantage: It has info. Disadvantage: Will be extremely disorganized and messy. | |||
| I am personally leaning towards option 1. Please give any feedback or suggestions as to how you believe the best process going forward is. I predict this overhaul will take about 1 month of work. | |||
| Blessings, | |||
| Yaakov W. ] (]) 18:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :– it would be best if you added citations as you went along – unsourced material may be regarded as ] or ] and be removed – for help in citing sources see ] – please DO NOT add unsourced content to articles as it makes more work for everyone – it would be a good idea if you took some time to familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages guidelines and took some time to learn how to edit before undertaking the major revision of an article, there have already been a few warnings on your User Talk page – take care, ] (]) 21:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 13:37, 28 May 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Messiah in Judaism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days  |
 | This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Change in Historical Views: Talmud
I made a change in Historical Views: Talmud. It was written there: He answered him, 'This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear his voice.'
"if ye will hear his voice" is not the meaning of the sentence. It is a sentence taken from a verse in Psalms 95;7: "today if you will listen to his voice".
The true meaning of the sentence is "listen to his voice", it is also the only right translation there is.
It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. Not to hear his voice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.183.167.80 (talk • contribs) 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Missing discussion of Haymanot
The article addresses the role of the Messiah in various sects/denominations of Judaism. But it does not address Haymanot (tradition of Beta Israel).
We are already over 6,100 years after creation
Dunno where this 2240 CE came from, but the numbers within the Bible add up with the current day already way over 6,000 years. So even if I take out the years that never were, we are way past the 6,000 years since Creation described in the Bible. 89.134.17.205 (talk) 19:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Deletion of sourced information
@Nycarchitecture212: Don't delete sourced information. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:27, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- I refuse to interact with this individual, so my contributions to the article will stop here if other users are fine with him deleting my edit I will not revert it. Have a nice day! Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 23:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nycarchitecture212: I'm not talking about fringe
. I'm talking about your deletions. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Sourcing
@Davidbena: while I appreciate the hard work you put in to providing material for this page, the Talmud is not a secondary source per Misplaced Pages standards but an original source. In addition, we need to write an article intended for the general public, and these comments are really deep in the weeds. We must provide secondary sources that explain what theologians think of the Talmudic references, not provide the references themselves (except as limited examples, such as a quote). Ogress 01:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I agree with you there. If I find any secondary sources that are worthy of note, I'll suggest the edit. Thanks.Davidbena (talk) 03:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, that would be super! Ogress 13:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)