| Revision as of 13:21, 25 February 2021 editZero0000 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators41,842 edits →Availability?← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 03:53, 21 December 2024 edit undoGrumpylawnchair (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers5,449 edits Restored revision 1264225712 by Jellyfish (talk): Disruptive editingTags: Twinkle Undo |
| (110 intermediate revisions by 46 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Skip to talk}} |
|
{{Skip to talk}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
| ⚫ |
{{Controversial}} |
|
|
{{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement|relatedcontent=yes}} |
|
{{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement|relatedcontent=yes}} |
|
⚫ |
{{Controversial}} |
|
⚫ |
{{Not a forum|small=yes}} |
|
⚫ |
{{FAQ}} |
|
{{Article history|action1=PR |
|
{{Article history|action1=PR |
|
|action1date=02:51, 27 September 2005 |
|
|action1date=02:51, 27 September 2005 |
| Line 24: |
Line 26: |
|
|currentstatus=FFA |
|
|currentstatus=FFA |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1={{WikiProject Jewish history|class=B|importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Books|class=B}} |
|
{{WikiProject Books}} |
|
{{WikiProject Russia|class=B|importance=high|hist=yes|relig=yes|ethno=yes|lit=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject Russia|importance=high|hist=yes|relig=yes|ethno=yes|lit=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics|class=B|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|class=|importance=}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|class=b|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=high}} |
|
|
}} |
|
{{WP1.0|v0.5=pass|class=B|category=Langlit}} |
|
|
|
{{Press |
|
|
|author = Ohad Merlin |
|
|
|title = Misplaced Pages in Arabic: A hotbed for bigotry, misinformation, and bias - investigative report |
|
|
|date = November 3, 2024 |
|
|
|org = ] |
|
|
|url = https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-827351 |
|
|
|lang = |
|
|
|quote = Thus reads the first paragraph of Arabic Misplaced Pages's entry of one of the most famous and vile blood libels of history, purposely leaving room for the thought that the forged work is, in fact, "leaked" and "real." For comparison, the first paragraph of the parallel English entry stresses that the Protocols are "a fabricated text"; the German version focuses on its antisemitic nature and the fact that it's based on fictional characters; the French entry calls it "a text invented from scratch" and a forgery; and the Persian entry deems it "a fake and anti-Semitic document." |
|
|
|archiveurl = |
|
|
|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
|
|
|accessdate = November 4, 2024 |
|
}} |
|
}} |
| ⚫ |
{{Off topic warning|small=yes}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{faq}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|archiveheader = {{Aan}} |
|
|archiveheader = {{Aan}} |
| Line 44: |
Line 56: |
|
{{Archive box|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=1||units=month|auto=yes|search=yes}} |
|
{{Archive box|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=1||units=month|auto=yes|search=yes}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Comparison in introduction == |
|
== Incorrect change == |
|
|
|
|
The introduction includes a comparison by Stephen Bronner. Is it really relevant to single out one opinion in the introduction, especially the rather random comparison? The intro already describes the significance of this document "It remains widely available in numerous languages, in print and on the Internet, and continues to be presented by neofascist, fundamentalist and antisemitic groups as a genuine document.", adding the quote of Bronner seems just arbitrary. Maybe keep the "probably the most influential work of antisemitism ever written"-quote, but at least the comparison to another book adds no information and just possible controversy to the intro. --] (]) 14:35, 22 July 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: I took out a sentence cited to Bronner. I discussed it before on this page (see the section "part of the intro is not good"). ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Those 500,000 copies == |
|
|
|
|
|
Some myths just won't go away, largely because they appear in "reliable sources". An example is "Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the United States in the 1920s." Now we have a new source Boyle, ''Arc of Justice'' that says "Determined to explain moral decline, he latched onto The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, .... By the summer of 1921, the automaker had already mass-produced some half million copies." Wondering exactly what this means, and why Boyle doesn't mention the Dearborn Independent here, we turn to Boyle's source: Nevins and Hill, ''Ford, Expansion and Challenge, 1915–1933'' (1957). There we find the origin of the 500,000 (p316): "The articles probably had little effect in stimulating the circulation of the Dearborn Independent. That circulation grew during 1922 to almost 270,000 paid copies, and in the middle of 1923 stood at 472,500, but the growth was based on semi-compulsory buying by branches, agencies, and dealers." So the 500,000 is about the Dearborn Independent, not about a separate publication. This inaccuracy is connected to another: the claim that the Dearborn Independent serialised the Protocols. Actually, the DI (which I have read) published a long series of original articles that quote paragraphs from the Protocols in support, but it never published the Protocols as one text from start to finish, together or in sections. I gave fine sources in ] of this page. A missing part of the puzzle concerns ''The International Jew'', which was a compilation of articles from the Dearborn Independent published as a booklet. Like the magazine, it wasn't a copy of the Protocols but an original rant peppered with quotations from the Protocols. What was its circulation? I believe that "half a million" is a mistake caused by confusion with the magazine. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:36, 30 September 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Seconded, strongly. It is essential for a page like this not to perpetuate inaccurate details and exaggerated numbers just because they've been promulgated for a long time. The publication history of these "protocols" is an essential part of their history. ] (]) 09:27, 20 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2020 == |
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|The Protocols of the Elders of Zion|answered=yes}} |
|
|
I would like to add a section under the Germany tab, discussing Nazi propaganda and the introduction to the Protocols found in the Nazi mass production of the Protocols. This is the section: |
|
|
|
|
|
Hitler and the Nazis produced many pieces of propaganda in Nazi Germany in an attempt to convince people that their world view was correct, and that Jewish people did not belong in Germany. Many different stereotypes and lies about Jewish people that were perpetuated in the Protocols, such as Jewish people having a plan for world domination, were also found in the Nazi propaganda. While it is highly unlikely that Hitler believed that the Protocols was a real book, he used it to his advantage to promote his antisemitic agenda. At least 23 editions of the Protocols were created and distributed between 1919 and 1939, and were mass produced when the Nazis were in power. When Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1933, schools began to use the Protocols to indoctrinate the children in Germany, which caused them to have a large influence on how German citizens viewed Jewish people. Hitler and the Nazis knew that promoting the belief that an international Jewish organization was planning to take over the world further instilled an irrational fear of Jewish people, which would make it easier to push their antisemitic beliefs on Germans and carry out antisemitic legislation. |
|
|
|
|
|
The Nazis produced a specific Nazi edition of the Protocols, Die Geheimnisse der Weisen von Zion, 22nd edition (Munich: Eher Verlag, 1938), in which they wrote an introduction to preface the actual Protocols. The introduction serves to give false credibility to the book, push clear antisemitic beliefs onto people, and set them up to begin carrying out legislation and persecution against the Jewish people in Germany. First, the introduction works to establish credibility to the book by saying that there is evidence that this work was created in Russia. They justified this claim and said that it was a logical thought because the “scholarly work must be conducted in the archives of a country in which Jewry has absolute control”. The introduction also claims that in addition to the agenda from the meetings that the Protocols referenced, they also had a desire to create propaganda and spread it with an end goal of the National Socialist Germany collapsing. In another attempt to establish credibility, the Nazis claimed that there is a lot of incriminating evidence in the Protocols, which suggests that the content in the book is true. |
|
|
|
|
|
The introduction also serves to perpetuate antisemitic attitudes and beliefs that were already common among society to give the Protocols further credit and claim the existence of Jewish propaganda. In addition to the stereotype of the plan for world domination, the Nazi introduction also states that releasing the Protocols have made people aware of the “corrupting character of Jewish thought and action.” The introduction discussed the court case about whether or not the Protocols are forged or not, and the Nazis stated that even if they were forged, it is not up to the court to decide, and that there is still some truth in the concept of Jewish people seeking world domination. The fact that the Protocols were on trial in the first place is a part of Jewish propaganda, according to the introduction, but “its outcome not only reduced the suspicion that the Protocols was a forged and immoral document, but also made clear that the origin of the Protocols was not a matter to be determined by a court, but rather by historical scholarship.” |
|
|
Ultimately, it is clear to see that the Nazis’ logic was very flawed, and that they wanted people to believe that Jewish people were actually attempting to take over the world so that fear would be instilled in the German people. The goal of the Nazis in mass publishing the Protocols with their introduction at the beginning was so that they would be justified in discriminating towards the Jews in their law and policies and the German people would be accepting of these actions. Even though it was proven that the Protocols were completely forged by Russians, the introduction denounced the facts and blamed the corruption of Jewish people to say that the Protocols was a real book. |
|
|
|
|
|
United States Holocaust Museum, Washington, DC, “Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” accessed December 6, 2020, https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion. |
|
|
|
|
|
Bytwerk, Randall. “Introduction to 1938 Nazi Edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.” Introduction to the Nazi Edition of the Protocols of Zion, 2012. https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/protocols.htm. ] (]) 23:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:You'll need specific in-line references to back up each major assertion, not just broad references, for three substantial paragraphs of statements composed in Misplaced Pages's voice, and you'll need to show how they might fit into the existing article. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 00:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{To|Ogress}} You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the ] that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see ] for examples. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
::{{ping|Haylielackey}} I've set this to answered for now, due to {{no ping|Acroterion}}'s concerns above. Please address these ''before'' resubmitting your edit request. ]] 16:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:{{to|Zero0000}} Ok! Make sure you edit the ] page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. ] 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
::Also, if you need any help with this, see ] and/or ]. ]] 16:41, 7 December 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Is the Dewey decimal actually 109? == |
|
== Availability? == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote? |
|
There is a line under the final heading, "contemporary conspiracy theories", that reads as follows: |
|
|
|
Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y” |
|
``The Protocols continue to be widely available around the world, particularly on the Internet, as well as in print in Japan, the Middle East, Asia, and South America.`` |
|
|
⚫ |
] (]) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
Isn't this misleading? The book is widely available worldwide. The phrasing of this sentence can lead the reader to infer that the book is not widely sold in North America or Africa; which either implies that North Americans and Africans are less open to believing that the protocols are genuine, or conversely, that for some reason not mentioned, the peoples of Asia, Europe, and South America are more inclined to bleieve that the screed is real; a statement that is not only unsupported by the sources listed, but unfair. |
|
| ⚫ |
] (]) 05:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai == |
|
:The implication is that it is more popular in those countries. While that may be true, I would like to see a source that says that. ] (]) 06:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'? |
|
:: I'm taking it out. I doubt if there is any way to make statements like that reliably. Incidentally, list it so why isn't the USA in the list? ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:20, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
|
view · edit Frequently asked questions
